June 11, 2024 • 36 mins
Dr. Meg Jones talks to us about queer and trans issues in education, and being an ally to all youth in our classrooms and beyond. Meg is known for her work in queer and trans issues in education, including educational policy, school-based literacies, and teacher education. In 2021-2023, through a Fulbright Finland Foundation and then an American Scandinavian Foundation Fellowship, Meg was a visiting researcher at the University of Helsinki in Finland where she worked with a team to focus on critical issues in global education. Dr. Meg Jones is an Assistant Professor of Education at Champlain College in Burlington, Vermont.
Suggested citation:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2024, June 11). A conversation with Meg Jones (Season 4, No. 12) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/B609-044F-CF1A-3C94-4006-A
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay (00:10):
education research has a problem.
The work of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers.
Classroom caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or
expert educator about what theyhave learned from their research
(00:31):
and experiences.
In this episode, dr Meg Jonestalks to us about queer and
trans issues in education andbeing an ally to all youth in
our classrooms and beyond.
Meg is known for her work inqueer and trans issues in
education, including educationalpolicy, school-based literacies
(00:54):
and teacher education.
In 2021 to 2023, through aFulbright Finland Foundation and
then an American ScandinavianFoundation Fellowship, meg was a
visiting researcher at theUniversity of Helsinki in
Finland, where she worked with ateam to focus on critical
issues in global education.
(01:14):
Dr Meg Jones is an assistantprofessor of education at
Champlain College in Burlington,vermont.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me, your host,
lindsay Persaud, for ClassroomCaffeine research to energize
(01:36):
your teaching practice.
Meg, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
So, from your own experiencesin education, will you share
with us one or two moments thatinform your thinking now.
Meg (01:51):
You know, I feel like we often get asked to recount like
some moving moment in our workand education and about.
You know, either zero or ahundred come to mind in that
moment.
Zero or a hundred come to mindin that moment.
But what keeps me going day today is probably something that
happened during my PhD research.
(02:11):
When I was doing mydissertation, I was a visiting
researcher over at theuniversity of Helsinki and I was
invited to give a one time Ithink it was a 50 minute long
lecture on queer and transtopics in education broadly to a
group of master's students intheir education program.
And it's always difficult whenyou go into a context or a
(02:33):
setting and you aren't reallygiven much information about the
knowledge of the individualsthere.
Have they already had baselineconversations around these
topics?
Do they want to dive into queertheory and gender complexity,
or do we need to start with thebasics of language?
So I just did my best and Iremember getting to the end of
(02:53):
the lecture, if you will, and acouple of students stayed after
and they came up to me and Ithought they're going to have
questions or maybe complaints.
Given the topic, I really had noidea what was coming and every
single one of them said thankyou just for being here and
simply talking about this topicin relation to education,
(03:14):
because for some of them it wasthe first time they had ever
heard it talked about so openly,so forwardly, matter of factly,
and coming from somebody whoidentifies within those
communities themselves andshares that.
That was, you know, really Icried when I was like I'm scared
up, but then I also I continuedhaving conversations with some
(03:38):
of those students because theyended up being some of the
participants in my research.
And there were even morestudents who, in conversations
and interviews for the research,shared.
You know that lecture was thefirst time I felt seen,
Nevermind the fact that we weretalking about what this might
look like in what we know asK-12 spaces.
(04:01):
Just hearing the words, justhaving it talked about came up
repeatedly in conversationsafter that date.
I had a student who shared that, a participant shared that they
came out to themselves afterthat lecture because they had
never been given language toname how they felt for their
(04:21):
entire lives.
They didn't realize it was apossibility.
And so you know, here I amfeeling all this pressure to be
an expert on this topic and youknow, reading Butler and reading
Foucault and trying to makesure that I'm this well-versed
academic in queer and transstudies and queer theory and
what mattered most to thoseindividuals was simply the
(04:44):
presence of the topic and that,I think, has been one of the
most moving moments for me ineducation amongst so many, from
when I was a classroom teacherthrough my graduate studies,
working with amazing individualsthe whole way.
That moment is what has kept megoing, especially given the
(05:04):
recent, you know, educationalpolicy, national policy here in
the US at least, around queerand trans individuals and rights
and visibility.
Knowing that simply beingpresent was enough for them in
those moments.
I think has been a really coolexperience.
Lindsay (05:22):
What a wonderful story and it certainly reminds me that
I think so much of whateducation true education is
really all about is helpingpeople feel seen, helping them
to understand themselves and theworld around them and how to
navigate all of thosecomplexities.
And, yeah, what an impactfulexperience to have students come
(05:45):
to you to say that they neededthe language, they needed the
encouragement, they needed thesupport to identify who they've
always been but never really hadthe words to put to it.
So that's amazing.
So, meg, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Meg (06:02):
It's, I think, with most educational research, with
academic work, with educatiobein i a teacher, it's hard.
It's hard with time, it's hardwith energy, it's hard with
balancing who am I as aprofessional and who am I
outside of that professionalidentity.
You know my family, my hobbies,my friends and at the same time
(06:26):
, it is valuable.
I think that's what I want themto know about.
My work is that it is a passion.
It is difficult, it'semotionally difficult.
So many times I have been askedto explain concepts, I have been
questioned, I have beenchallenged, and I think this
maybe resonates with people whowork in fields or maybe research
(06:49):
or teach about topics that arevery personally relevant for
them that when you have torepeatedly show up and defend
your work, you're also defendingwho you are, because that work
is connected to your identity.
And I've been in manysituations where I've had people
(07:09):
question language that I teachabout and it's the very language
that I use to identify myself,and in those moments it's
difficult to keep theprofessional and the personal
separate and I would argue thatI don't keep them separate and
we shouldn't.
As educators, as researchers.
We are human beings and,especially given the critical
and qualitative work that I do,every bit of me is involved in
(07:33):
that work.
I'll go ahead and kind of youknow if anybody's listening and
they fully believe in separationof self and researcher.
You know the concept ofbracketing right.
Like the first time I hear thatin any qualitative course, I'm
like nope, that is.
That is not who I am.
So my work is deeply personaland it's it's valuable, it's
worth the energy, it's worth thetime and I think that my work
(07:57):
serves to just kind ofconstantly be an annoying little
tap on the edges of harmfuleducational policy and practice.
I am not going to changeeverything about the experiences
of queer and trans youth in ourschools with one research
(08:17):
project, but I hope that I canjust tap and annoy with every
paper I put out, with everylecture I give, with everything
I post any just my simplepresence.
I hope my work is a constantpebble in the shoe of people who
support and make these policies.
And with enough of us beingpebbles in the shoes, then maybe
(08:38):
we can make some change.
Maybe we can help protect queerand trans young people in our
classroom spaces and in ourcolleges and universities.
I think that is the purpose ofmy work and that's what I would
like people to know.
I also maybe this isn't aboutmy work, but rather about me I
hope two things.
(09:00):
One I hope if people access mywork or see my career trajectory
and have thoughts and haveopinions, disagreements I hope
they'd engage, because the wholepoint of doing what I do is to
get people to engage with thetopics that I talk about, which
is mostly around queer and transexperiences in K-12 spaces and
(09:20):
in college university spaces.
But I hope that they feelwelcome enough to reach out and
engage and disagree or agree.
Maybe see themselves, maybedon't see themselves, but I also
hope that if anybody'slistening who is a classroom
teacher or maybe anundergraduate student, a
pre-service teacher or amaster's level student and
(09:41):
things like this really they'repassionate about it, that they
have a voice and their voice isimportant, no matter what space
they're in, that they can make adifference.
They can be that annoying tap,they can be that pebble too.
I simply occupy one particularspace, one particular lane, if
you will, and we need all of usdoing this work.
(10:03):
So I teach pre-service teachers,mostly undergraduates right now
, and a lot of times they'llshare with me that they simply
feel helpless in the face of somuch going on and so much policy
.
Many of them work in schoolsettings where there are parents
and families and largewell-funded organizations coming
in to push back against theinclusion and visibility that
(10:27):
they try to create in theirclassroom spaces.
And they'll come and say, likewhat can I do?
And I kind of connect this backwith the moment that I shared
at the beginning of theconversation.
I tell them, like, show up,show up, and even if you are
told that you can't say acertain thing or you can't talk
about a certain topic, you canbe there and there is a way
(10:52):
there.
You know I'm not going to tryto get all into energies and
stuff, but I do feel like we canshow up into classrooms with a
certain energy of acceptance,inclusion in seeing young people
for who they are and even whenpolicies are sometimes literally
tying our hands behind ourbacks, we can show up in the
best ways that possible but alsoand this again is to everybody
(11:16):
listening take care of ourselves.
Circling back to what I wantpeople to know about the work,
it is hard and I think ifanybody's listening and they are
aligned with this work, ifthey're aligned with fighting
for queer and trans rights, foryoung people, for adults, for
everybody.
Know that it's exhausting andknow that that feeling of
exhaustion is valid and real, nomatter who you are or how you
(11:40):
identify.
Allies feel it as well.
It is intimidating andexhausting and that's what those
who are creating theseantagonistic policies want us to
feel and they want us to giveup because of that.
But I wrote a very short piecea while back.
It was like a section withanother piece about radical rest
(12:01):
and that we need to acknowledgethe exhaustion and the constant
fatigue and we need to takerest, but rest doesn't mean
giving up.
Those who are antagonistic wantus to give up.
They want me to stop myresearch, they want teachers to
stop trying.
They just want policymakers tostop trying, you know, and we
(12:22):
just we can't give up but weshould rest.
So, yeah, I think that aroundabout way that talks about
what I want people to know.
Lindsay (12:31):
No, and I really appreciate that, because you've
already answered a question Iwanted to ask you, meg, which
was what do we do, how do wesupport particularly new
teachers, or certainlyexperienced teachers who want to
be supportive but don't exactlyknow how, and especially in
this political age where much ofthe language you know, teachers
(12:52):
, are barred from saying andeven you know there are
instances wherein you knowoffices that would support this
kind of work are being defundedand things like that.
And so that was one of myquestions for you is how do we
support teachers to supportqueer and trans youth in their
classrooms?
And I think this idea of justshowing up is so important.
(13:14):
I think that most teachersbelieve that every child has
value.
Every person as an individualhas valuable contributions to
make to the world and work to dowithin themselves, but also
certainly outside contributionsto make to the outside world.
And so I think this idea ofjust showing up and expressing
that support to every singlechild world, and so I think this
idea of just showing up andexpressing that support to every
(13:36):
single child, this is just whatI tell my own pre-service
teachers your job is to supportevery child who walks into your
classroom, every one of them,whether you like them, whether
you agree with them, whether youlike their family members, it
doesn't matter.
That's the job.
And so this idea of showing up,I think, is really helpful,
because I think there are someallies these days who are
(13:58):
feeling a bit discouraged andare feeling like the work is
really hard.
I know there are times wheneverI'm having just conversations,
even with people in my community.
So often what I find is that ifthere is someone who is maybe
behind what I see as a harmfulpolicy, there's a
misunderstanding or maybe even alack of understanding that I
(14:20):
think that even if we can, likeyou said, sort of put some
cracks in their thinking, to sayyou know what, it doesn't
really matter how someoneidentifies, they're still humans
and we are still going to bekind and caring and supportive
in every way we can.
So yeah, but it is hard, andsometimes I think that whenever
you're met with such resistance,it's difficult to know what to
(14:42):
say in order to create thosecracks in someone's really
solidified kind of thinking.
And I don't know.
I'm wondering if you have anyother tips for us or any other
ways, any phrasing that has beenhelpful in developing a more
nuanced stance.
Meg (14:57):
Yeah, I think again rest, acknowledging that it's
exhausting.
And showing up when and whereyou can, I always add on to the
piece showing up when you havesafety, and some people have
more safety than others, so forsome they may want to show up as
a visibly queer, visibly transwhat have you teacher in a
(15:19):
classroom, but it's not safe todo so.
So that's when we lean on ourallies and say, well, it's safer
for you to show up as an allynot safe but safer.
And so just really kind ofthinking where are the spaces
and what identities do I occupywhere I am safe to show up and
how can I use that in the bestway to be an ally or to show up
(15:39):
for children, practice thatallyship.
I think that is another kind ofcaveat to that showing up.
But there's two things, twoother things I could share.
The first is I've had a coupleof conversations recently with
colleagues slash best friends asthey become right so we can get
into those more nitty grittyconversations where our true
(16:00):
selves come out.
And as we are getting, quoteunquote, older, we are realizing
that our allyship and ouradvocacy for various causes and
groups is shifting to more of asofter, kindness approach and I
was sort of lamenting to thiscolleague friend recently about
(16:22):
man.
I miss the energy to be angry,I miss the energy to go out and
yell and scream and be out everyweekend, every March,
everything.
And I still do show up to thosespaces, but I find that I am in
a season of life where I canoccupy the resistance and the
advocacy in a different way andwe need all types of allyship
(16:45):
and advocacy and work.
We need those who are yellingand screaming and stomping their
feet and are angry and we needthose who are baking cookies for
their neighbors with the flagssupporting people we may not
support Right.
And I see myself shiftingamongst that spectrum of
activism and I think it'simportant for all of us to say
(17:06):
however we are showing up inactivism, we have our own way of
doing it and that is again notto discount the fact that, like
I as a white person, have whiteprivilege and so I need to show
up a little harder in somespaces, but there are spaces
that I can show up a littlesofter and still be advocating
for that community, for forwhatever the cause may be.
(17:26):
So that's one just kind ofacknowledging where we are in
our energy and that spectrum andthe second.
And so, for those of you whomight still be listening, this
is my favorite.
I've buried the good part.
I always advocate for beingsubversive when you have safety.
I just had this conversation theother day with somebody who was
(17:47):
asking a similar question ofwhat can educators do, and I was
like, well, we get told a lotwhat we can't do, but there's so
much space left over in thatwhat is unsaid.
And so maybe there's books thatwe can't have in the classroom
because of antagonistic policies.
But what if there is a bookthat has a very cis normative,
(18:11):
binary representation of genderand we just drop a question
somewhere of like I wonder whatelse let's use a very white
feminine associated name Susiewould do if she wasn't playing
with dolls?
What else might she like to dowith her life?
So there's some ways that wecan be a bit subversive against
(18:34):
the policies that are constantlytelling us what we can't do.
Another one is you know thelanguage we use in classrooms.
This is kind of a genderinclusion 101 for educators.
Instead of saying boys andgirls say everybody line up, or
all of my scholars line up, or Idon't really like to use
friends in classrooms, but usingsome collective term that is
(18:58):
not disallowed, as far as I know, anywhere yet They'll hear this
and then they'll start changingthat.
But there are ways that we canjust create space, create
possibility, without necessarilygoing against many of these
really misinterpreted andmisaligned policies in
(19:19):
educational spaces.
Lindsay (19:21):
I love some subversion, particularly subtle subversion.
I've actually one of my mentorsand colleagues has said that
librarians tend to be verysubversive, and I could
certainly identify with that.
I was formerly a librarian andI'm educated as one, so I could
agree with that.
That's really helpful and Ilove this idea of identifying
(19:42):
what you can do.
We hear so much about what youcan't do, what you can't say,
how you can't be, but findingthat space, I think, also really
helps me to think even moredeeply about your first point,
that you know you occupy theresistance in different ways and
find your own ways of showingup.
I think that those two to me gohand in hand, that you're also
(20:04):
identifying those ways that makesense for me as an individual,
you know, but also are a way toshow up in those sort of subtly
or maybe not so subtlysubversive ways.
I think that's very, veryhelpful.
When I find myself inconversations about whether it's
trans youth, queer youth, itreally is often just a very
(20:26):
misunderstood kind of topic.
I can remember having aconversation within the last few
months of someone who I knowvery well We've talked about a
lot of tough topics over theyears and she said well, I don't
think that you know kids inkindergarten should be taught
about trans or queer people.
I said, well, what do you do ifyou have a trans child in the
(20:49):
room?
Then what?
What do you do if your studenthas same-sex parents?
What then?
I mean, does that change thingsat all?
Because I think that these aresituations that many folks in
the general public don't imagineexist.
But they do.
We know they do.
We've worked with young peoplewho have different family
(21:12):
structures, who have familystructures that aren't, you know
, mom and dad.
So I just I think thatsometimes it's just like you
said, it's a matter of sort ofputting some cracks in that
thinking and complexifying Likethis isn't a black and white
kind of conversation.
There's so many gray areas andso so many across the spectrum
of not only gender but sexuality.
(21:33):
I think that reinforcesstereotypical binaries,
(21:57):
especially around gendernormativity, that I think we've
got to do better than that.
Meg (22:03):
Agreed and it also creates makes me think about the
conversation you said you werehaving about.
You know, a kindergartnershouldn't be learning about
trans or transnist or queerness.
So many of these policies andthe public discourse creates
misconceptions about what'sactually happening in early
childhood and elementaryclassrooms.
I mean, nobody's walking in andasking any child what their
(22:26):
gender identity is.
But when a child starts movingbeyond, you know these normative
concepts of gender.
But when a child starts movingbeyond these normative concepts
of gender, leaving space is notharmful.
Constraining and limitingpossibility is harmful and
reproduces a lot of problems inour society.
So we're not going into akindergarten and saying guess
(22:47):
what?
Gender is irrelevant and allmade up, even though somewhere
deep down in queer theory wekind of think it is.
We don't bring that intokindergarten classrooms.
We're just saying like, yeah,okay, there's these some quote
unquote categories and oh, youdon't feel that category aligns
with you.
Okay, but maybe you come backto it, that's fine, that's it.
(23:09):
That's really all that'shappening.
Or, as you're saying, withfamilies, we're just opening
space for all family structuresand that goes beyond gender and
sexuality.
But think about how manychildren live with caregivers
who are not their biologicalparents?
How many children live withpeople who are not their family,
(23:30):
and so the language that we usein classrooms around families
really we need to look at itbeyond gender and sexuality and
be more expansive to berepresentative of those young
people in our classrooms.
Lindsay (23:43):
Yeah, I think you're so right about that and I think
when we do talk about classroomsas inclusive spaces, we just
sort of have to move beyond theway we were thinking about those
things, you know, 75 or 100years ago, you know, to
understand that there is roomfor everyone.
There is room for everyone inpublic education and really in
education everywhere, and thereshould be.
(24:04):
And so offering that support,offering that allyship, showing
up for every individual whocrosses the threshold into our
classrooms or everyone we mighteven come in contact with
outside of schools, I think it'sjust, it's so important for a
kinder world, a safer world and,ultimately, a much more
(24:26):
productive kind of society.
Whenever people aren't scaredto be who they feel they are,
they aren't scared to identify,you know, the way that they've
always felt they have.
So it's just.
It's such an importantconversation and I know over the
, particularly the last coupleof years, some of the policies
that have impacted educationhave just been so hateful.
(24:49):
Really, I haven't quite beenable to put my finger on whether
that is the hate there isintentional, or if this is just
a couple of folks who are scaredscared of, you know, I don't
know if it's losing their sliceof the pie, or you know what we
think the ultimate outcome isgoing to be if we don't make
space for everyone.
(25:09):
But I don't know, I'm not.
I'm not interested in inplaying that game.
I'm much more interested insupporting everyone.
But I don't know, I'm notinterested in playing that game.
I'm much more interested insupporting everyone.
Meg (25:17):
I agree completely when individuals show fear, and I do
think it's discomfort and fearof, as you said, losing the
slice of the pie.
Even when I experienced thatfeeling, that should be the
first indicator that you aretaking something away from
somebody else in order to getthat slice of the pie.
And it's uncomfortable to shiftin privilege and in familiarity
(25:39):
.
So you know, when I encounterindividuals who struggle with
concepts of gender diversity orsexuality beyond
heteronormativity, I try to keepthat in mind that there's a
great discomfort in theunfamiliar and it can feel
threatening.
It doesn't excuse behavior,harmful behavior, but it allows
me to maintain a sense of calmin that space and in that
(26:01):
conversation.
And personally, honestly, likebeing in queer community, being
in gender diverse community, isa huge part of my personal life.
It's a beautiful space, it is awild time, it's lovely, and
when I step into classrooms orwhen I am doing my work, my
gender, my sexuality, is theleast interesting thing about me
(26:23):
.
Can we just move on from thatpart of the conversation?
I would rather argue about oldpolicies like no child left
behind, and continue to argueabout these harmful policies
about gender and sexuality Likewe'd still have an educational
crisis that we need to address.
(26:44):
That has nothing to do withthese issues.
So, yeah, like we have so muchwork that we could be doing and
we could be so much moreproductive if we could recognize
the serious issues that arehappening with education broadly
.
And that's not blaming teachers.
I'm talking about funding andstructure and support and how we
view educators and education.
(27:05):
Those are the conversations weshould be having.
Lindsay (27:09):
Right, which also, I think, encompasses the
inclusivity we're really talkingabout here.
And something else you said,Meg.
It reminds me of something thatI heard from a past Classroom
Caffeine guest.
Judith Dunkerley-Bean, who wastalking about her child who is
trans, said the exact same thing.
(27:33):
That is the least interestingthing about me.
Get to know me as a person, youknow, because, of course,
throughout the presentation thatCam made in Judith's class, you
know there were so manyquestions about being trans, and
that is the least, leastinteresting thing about me.
Let's talk about some otherthings.
So, you know, that reminds meof something that came to mind
as you were talking andsomething that I think I
(27:53):
mentioned in my conversationwith Judith.
Anytime I have kind of a heatedconversation with someone about
trans individuals, I'll oftensay, well, do you know anyone
who's trans?
And pretty much 100%.
The answer is no, much 100%.
(28:18):
The answer is no.
So they're working fromsomething theoretical rather
than a more humanistic kind ofperspective, because I certainly
find that people are people.
You know, no matter how you mayidentify, no matter what
background you may come from,everybody has complex things
about them, everyone has reallyinteresting things about them,
everyone struggles with things,everyone excels at certain
things and, you know, when welook at humans at the end of the
(28:41):
day, as just humans, we're alljust trying to make it in this
world.
Meg (28:46):
I sometimes tell people like I come home at the end of
the day and I sit with my catand I cross stitch.
I'm the most boring queerperson.
We're not out here trying to bethreatening in any way.
Most of us just like doing artsand crafts in front of our TV.
So yeah, for the individualswho don't know any, here's an
(29:09):
introduction to what our livessometimes are like.
I don't want to discount thevery real historical oppression
that has happened in education,but what's happening right now
is we're bringing in anotherconversation that doesn't need.
Just let people be people andlet's address some of the larger
systemic issues that havehappened, especially in the US.
(29:31):
Let's put our time and energyinto that.
Let's not create more problems.
Yes, we need visibility, weneed representation, and that
hasn't historically happened forqueer and trans individuals.
But if we can just realize thatthose identities are
non-threatening, then we canmove forward and be more
productive in other areas ofoppression and education.
Lindsay (29:51):
I think that's such an important starting point for us.
Right, because, you're right,there are new policies that are
just exacerbating issues thatalready exist rather than
identifying a path forward whereeveryone can do their best work
, be their best selves and beconnected in a supportive and
(30:12):
enriching kind of community.
Yeah, we don't need morepolicies that work against those
kinds of goals because reallyit is counterproductive for
everyone Everyone.
So, yeah, I think that's justsuch an important message.
So, speaking of messages, giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
(30:32):
hear?
Meg (30:41):
You are seen and even when it feels like you are not heard,
people are listening.
I think being a teacher in aclassroom is one of the hardest
jobs that you can have right nowand it is very real that that
position is underpaid,under-respected, and yet you are
held to such high expectationsin your own education, your own
knowledge, the time that yougive the time away from your
families, your home, yourcommunities, and just know that
(31:05):
it is seen and that there arepeople out here working to
change things.
While it may feel like it isactively crumbling down, you are
not forgotten in those spacesand we absolutely need teachers.
Teachers are really the pathforward.
I went into education becausewhen I was a classroom teacher
every year I knew that therewere.
(31:26):
I was in a state where we hadway too many kids in the
classroom at times, but we'llsay 25.
There were about 25 humans thatI got to know and that I, at
one point in their lives, was apresence and had the opportunity
to hopefully support andinfluence in a positive way and
(31:48):
help them develop their sense ofself, and then they will go on
and replicate that, and so Ithink you know for teachers,
just remember when everythingelse is awful, when it feels
like it's too much, that onepiece that you as a human are
connecting with and have theopportunity to support and
develop.
Let's say, 25 on average youngpeople every year, and for some
(32:14):
it's more, for some it's fewer.
You know, in college courses wesee many, and even when I want
to just pull my hair out and Iam, you know, I'm like oh, we
were talking earlier.
You know, you don't have to likeeverybody, but you do have to
support them.
So when I have those, I'm likeI actually don't really like you
, but I'm going to support you.
The effect of educators isimmeasurable and this is one of
(32:39):
the few professions that we cansay that.
And so, again, just know thatyour work is valuable, know that
we are here, we see thedifficult times and if anybody,
if there are queer or transidentified educators listening
or researchers and you feel likeyou're alone, please reach out
to me.
I will be happy to be incommunity with you.
And even if you just needsomebody to jump on, zoom with
(33:01):
and let it all out, there'll beno judgment.
Lindsay (33:05):
That is a beautiful invitation and a really
important message, I think, meg.
So you're right, being ateacher is not only one of the
most impactful, valuablepositions one can have in the
world, it is also very difficult, and it does seem as though
there are policies that aim tomake that even more challenging.
(33:26):
But I really appreciate youoffering that space of community
to listeners, because I'veheard from some of my
pre-service teachers who'veactually left preparing for
becoming a teacher because theydon't feel that there's space
for them because of their genderidentity, their sexual identity
, and so I really appreciate youkind of putting that out there,
because it is important that weall feel seen and we all feel
(33:50):
heard, and I think that's whenwe do our very best work.
So I thank you so much for yourtime today and I thank you for
your contributions to the fieldof education.
Thank you for having me.
Dr Meg Jones studies queer andtrans issues in education,
including educational policy,school-based literacies and
teacher education.
Her work has been published inFrontiers, in STEM Education,
(34:12):
journal of Women and Gender, inHigher Education Journal of
Women and Minorities.
In was a visiting researcher atthe University of Helsinki in
(34:34):
Finland, where she worked with ateam to learn from and
contribute to internationalresearch situated in the Nordic
countries to focus on criticalissues in global education
broadly and Finnish educationlocally.
Dr Meg Jones is a graduate ofthe University of Rhode Island
and is currently an assistantprofessor of education at
(34:55):
Champlain College in Burlington,vermont, where she teaches
courses on public schooling andliteracy.
You can reach Meg at mjones atchamplainedu that's M-J-O-N-E-S
at C-H-A-M-P-L- p l a I n dotedu.
(35:21):
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
hear.
You can support the show bysubscribing, liking and
reviewing this podcast throughyour podcast provider.
(35:41):
Visit classroomcaffeinecomwhere you can subscribe to
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On our website, you can alsolearn more about each guest,
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(36:04):
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We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
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As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
(36:26):
Thanks for joining me.
education research has a problem.
The work of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers.
Classroom caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or
expert educator about what theyhave learned from their research
(00:31):
and experiences.
In this episode, dr Meg Jonestalks to us about queer and
trans issues in education andbeing an ally to all youth in
our classrooms and beyond.
Meg is known for her work inqueer and trans issues in
education, including educationalpolicy, school-based literacies
(00:54):
and teacher education.
In 2021 to 2023, through aFulbright Finland Foundation and
then an American ScandinavianFoundation Fellowship, meg was a
visiting researcher at theUniversity of Helsinki in
Finland, where she worked with ateam to focus on critical
issues in global education.
(01:14):
Dr Meg Jones is an assistantprofessor of education at
Champlain College in Burlington,vermont.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me, your host,
lindsay Persaud, for ClassroomCaffeine research to energize
(01:36):
your teaching practice.
Meg, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
So, from your own experiencesin education, will you share
with us one or two moments thatinform your thinking now.
Meg (01:51):
You know, I feel like we often get asked to recount like
some moving moment in our workand education and about.
You know, either zero or ahundred come to mind in that
moment.
Zero or a hundred come to mindin that moment.
But what keeps me going day today is probably something that
happened during my PhD research.
(02:11):
When I was doing mydissertation, I was a visiting
researcher over at theuniversity of Helsinki and I was
invited to give a one time Ithink it was a 50 minute long
lecture on queer and transtopics in education broadly to a
group of master's students intheir education program.
And it's always difficult whenyou go into a context or a
(02:33):
setting and you aren't reallygiven much information about the
knowledge of the individualsthere.
Have they already had baselineconversations around these
topics?
Do they want to dive into queertheory and gender complexity,
or do we need to start with thebasics of language?
So I just did my best and Iremember getting to the end of
(02:53):
the lecture, if you will, and acouple of students stayed after
and they came up to me and Ithought they're going to have
questions or maybe complaints.
Given the topic, I really had noidea what was coming and every
single one of them said thankyou just for being here and
simply talking about this topicin relation to education,
(03:14):
because for some of them it wasthe first time they had ever
heard it talked about so openly,so forwardly, matter of factly,
and coming from somebody whoidentifies within those
communities themselves andshares that.
That was, you know, really Icried when I was like I'm scared
up, but then I also I continuedhaving conversations with some
(03:38):
of those students because theyended up being some of the
participants in my research.
And there were even morestudents who, in conversations
and interviews for the research,shared.
You know that lecture was thefirst time I felt seen,
Nevermind the fact that we weretalking about what this might
look like in what we know asK-12 spaces.
(04:01):
Just hearing the words, justhaving it talked about came up
repeatedly in conversationsafter that date.
I had a student who shared that, a participant shared that they
came out to themselves afterthat lecture because they had
never been given language toname how they felt for their
(04:21):
entire lives.
They didn't realize it was apossibility.
And so you know, here I amfeeling all this pressure to be
an expert on this topic and youknow, reading Butler and reading
Foucault and trying to makesure that I'm this well-versed
academic in queer and transstudies and queer theory and
what mattered most to thoseindividuals was simply the
(04:44):
presence of the topic and that,I think, has been one of the
most moving moments for me ineducation amongst so many, from
when I was a classroom teacherthrough my graduate studies,
working with amazing individualsthe whole way.
That moment is what has kept megoing, especially given the
(05:04):
recent, you know, educationalpolicy, national policy here in
the US at least, around queerand trans individuals and rights
and visibility.
Knowing that simply beingpresent was enough for them in
those moments.
I think has been a really coolexperience.
Lindsay (05:22):
What a wonderful story and it certainly reminds me that
I think so much of whateducation true education is
really all about is helpingpeople feel seen, helping them
to understand themselves and theworld around them and how to
navigate all of thosecomplexities.
And, yeah, what an impactfulexperience to have students come
(05:45):
to you to say that they neededthe language, they needed the
encouragement, they needed thesupport to identify who they've
always been but never really hadthe words to put to it.
So that's amazing.
So, meg, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Meg (06:02):
It's, I think, with most educational research, with
academic work, with educatiobein i a teacher, it's hard.
It's hard with time, it's hardwith energy, it's hard with
balancing who am I as aprofessional and who am I
outside of that professionalidentity.
You know my family, my hobbies,my friends and at the same time
(06:26):
, it is valuable.
I think that's what I want themto know about.
My work is that it is a passion.
It is difficult, it'semotionally difficult.
So many times I have been askedto explain concepts, I have been
questioned, I have beenchallenged, and I think this
maybe resonates with people whowork in fields or maybe research
(06:49):
or teach about topics that arevery personally relevant for
them that when you have torepeatedly show up and defend
your work, you're also defendingwho you are, because that work
is connected to your identity.
And I've been in manysituations where I've had people
(07:09):
question language that I teachabout and it's the very language
that I use to identify myself,and in those moments it's
difficult to keep theprofessional and the personal
separate and I would argue thatI don't keep them separate and
we shouldn't.
As educators, as researchers.
We are human beings and,especially given the critical
and qualitative work that I do,every bit of me is involved in
(07:33):
that work.
I'll go ahead and kind of youknow if anybody's listening and
they fully believe in separationof self and researcher.
You know the concept ofbracketing right.
Like the first time I hear thatin any qualitative course, I'm
like nope, that is.
That is not who I am.
So my work is deeply personaland it's it's valuable, it's
worth the energy, it's worth thetime and I think that my work
(07:57):
serves to just kind ofconstantly be an annoying little
tap on the edges of harmfuleducational policy and practice.
I am not going to changeeverything about the experiences
of queer and trans youth in ourschools with one research
(08:17):
project, but I hope that I canjust tap and annoy with every
paper I put out, with everylecture I give, with everything
I post any just my simplepresence.
I hope my work is a constantpebble in the shoe of people who
support and make these policies.
And with enough of us beingpebbles in the shoes, then maybe
(08:38):
we can make some change.
Maybe we can help protect queerand trans young people in our
classroom spaces and in ourcolleges and universities.
I think that is the purpose ofmy work and that's what I would
like people to know.
I also maybe this isn't aboutmy work, but rather about me I
hope two things.
(09:00):
One I hope if people access mywork or see my career trajectory
and have thoughts and haveopinions, disagreements I hope
they'd engage, because the wholepoint of doing what I do is to
get people to engage with thetopics that I talk about, which
is mostly around queer and transexperiences in K-12 spaces and
(09:20):
in college university spaces.
But I hope that they feelwelcome enough to reach out and
engage and disagree or agree.
Maybe see themselves, maybedon't see themselves, but I also
hope that if anybody'slistening who is a classroom
teacher or maybe anundergraduate student, a
pre-service teacher or amaster's level student and
(09:41):
things like this really they'repassionate about it, that they
have a voice and their voice isimportant, no matter what space
they're in, that they can make adifference.
They can be that annoying tap,they can be that pebble too.
I simply occupy one particularspace, one particular lane, if
you will, and we need all of usdoing this work.
(10:03):
So I teach pre-service teachers,mostly undergraduates right now
, and a lot of times they'llshare with me that they simply
feel helpless in the face of somuch going on and so much policy
.
Many of them work in schoolsettings where there are parents
and families and largewell-funded organizations coming
in to push back against theinclusion and visibility that
(10:27):
they try to create in theirclassroom spaces.
And they'll come and say, likewhat can I do?
And I kind of connect this backwith the moment that I shared
at the beginning of theconversation.
I tell them, like, show up,show up, and even if you are
told that you can't say acertain thing or you can't talk
about a certain topic, you canbe there and there is a way
(10:52):
there.
You know I'm not going to tryto get all into energies and
stuff, but I do feel like we canshow up into classrooms with a
certain energy of acceptance,inclusion in seeing young people
for who they are and even whenpolicies are sometimes literally
tying our hands behind ourbacks, we can show up in the
best ways that possible but alsoand this again is to everybody
(11:16):
listening take care of ourselves.
Circling back to what I wantpeople to know about the work,
it is hard and I think ifanybody's listening and they are
aligned with this work, ifthey're aligned with fighting
for queer and trans rights, foryoung people, for adults, for
everybody.
Know that it's exhausting andknow that that feeling of
exhaustion is valid and real, nomatter who you are or how you
(11:40):
identify.
Allies feel it as well.
It is intimidating andexhausting and that's what those
who are creating theseantagonistic policies want us to
feel and they want us to giveup because of that.
But I wrote a very short piecea while back.
It was like a section withanother piece about radical rest
(12:01):
and that we need to acknowledgethe exhaustion and the constant
fatigue and we need to takerest, but rest doesn't mean
giving up.
Those who are antagonistic wantus to give up.
They want me to stop myresearch, they want teachers to
stop trying.
They just want policymakers tostop trying, you know, and we
(12:22):
just we can't give up but weshould rest.
So, yeah, I think that aroundabout way that talks about
what I want people to know.
Lindsay (12:31):
No, and I really appreciate that, because you've
already answered a question Iwanted to ask you, meg, which
was what do we do, how do wesupport particularly new
teachers, or certainlyexperienced teachers who want to
be supportive but don't exactlyknow how, and especially in
this political age where much ofthe language you know, teachers
(12:52):
, are barred from saying andeven you know there are
instances wherein you knowoffices that would support this
kind of work are being defundedand things like that.
And so that was one of myquestions for you is how do we
support teachers to supportqueer and trans youth in their
classrooms?
And I think this idea of justshowing up is so important.
(13:14):
I think that most teachersbelieve that every child has
value.
Every person as an individualhas valuable contributions to
make to the world and work to dowithin themselves, but also
certainly outside contributionsto make to the outside world.
And so I think this idea ofjust showing up and expressing
that support to every singlechild world, and so I think this
idea of just showing up andexpressing that support to every
(13:36):
single child, this is just whatI tell my own pre-service
teachers your job is to supportevery child who walks into your
classroom, every one of them,whether you like them, whether
you agree with them, whether youlike their family members, it
doesn't matter.
That's the job.
And so this idea of showing up,I think, is really helpful,
because I think there are someallies these days who are
(13:58):
feeling a bit discouraged andare feeling like the work is
really hard.
I know there are times wheneverI'm having just conversations,
even with people in my community.
So often what I find is that ifthere is someone who is maybe
behind what I see as a harmfulpolicy, there's a
misunderstanding or maybe even alack of understanding that I
(14:20):
think that even if we can, likeyou said, sort of put some
cracks in their thinking, to sayyou know what, it doesn't
really matter how someoneidentifies, they're still humans
and we are still going to bekind and caring and supportive
in every way we can.
So yeah, but it is hard, andsometimes I think that whenever
you're met with such resistance,it's difficult to know what to
(14:42):
say in order to create thosecracks in someone's really
solidified kind of thinking.
And I don't know.
I'm wondering if you have anyother tips for us or any other
ways, any phrasing that has beenhelpful in developing a more
nuanced stance.
Meg (14:57):
Yeah, I think again rest, acknowledging that it's
exhausting.
And showing up when and whereyou can, I always add on to the
piece showing up when you havesafety, and some people have
more safety than others, so forsome they may want to show up as
a visibly queer, visibly transwhat have you teacher in a
(15:19):
classroom, but it's not safe todo so.
So that's when we lean on ourallies and say, well, it's safer
for you to show up as an allynot safe but safer.
And so just really kind ofthinking where are the spaces
and what identities do I occupywhere I am safe to show up and
how can I use that in the bestway to be an ally or to show up
(15:39):
for children, practice thatallyship.
I think that is another kind ofcaveat to that showing up.
But there's two things, twoother things I could share.
The first is I've had a coupleof conversations recently with
colleagues slash best friends asthey become right so we can get
into those more nitty grittyconversations where our true
(16:00):
selves come out.
And as we are getting, quoteunquote, older, we are realizing
that our allyship and ouradvocacy for various causes and
groups is shifting to more of asofter, kindness approach and I
was sort of lamenting to thiscolleague friend recently about
(16:22):
man.
I miss the energy to be angry,I miss the energy to go out and
yell and scream and be out everyweekend, every March,
everything.
And I still do show up to thosespaces, but I find that I am in
a season of life where I canoccupy the resistance and the
advocacy in a different way andwe need all types of allyship
(16:45):
and advocacy and work.
We need those who are yellingand screaming and stomping their
feet and are angry and we needthose who are baking cookies for
their neighbors with the flagssupporting people we may not
support Right.
And I see myself shiftingamongst that spectrum of
activism and I think it'simportant for all of us to say
(17:06):
however we are showing up inactivism, we have our own way of
doing it and that is again notto discount the fact that, like
I as a white person, have whiteprivilege and so I need to show
up a little harder in somespaces, but there are spaces
that I can show up a littlesofter and still be advocating
for that community, for forwhatever the cause may be.
(17:26):
So that's one just kind ofacknowledging where we are in
our energy and that spectrum andthe second.
And so, for those of you whomight still be listening, this
is my favorite.
I've buried the good part.
I always advocate for beingsubversive when you have safety.
I just had this conversation theother day with somebody who was
(17:47):
asking a similar question ofwhat can educators do, and I was
like, well, we get told a lotwhat we can't do, but there's so
much space left over in thatwhat is unsaid.
And so maybe there's books thatwe can't have in the classroom
because of antagonistic policies.
But what if there is a bookthat has a very cis normative,
(18:11):
binary representation of genderand we just drop a question
somewhere of like I wonder whatelse let's use a very white
feminine associated name Susiewould do if she wasn't playing
with dolls?
What else might she like to dowith her life?
So there's some ways that wecan be a bit subversive against
(18:34):
the policies that are constantlytelling us what we can't do.
Another one is you know thelanguage we use in classrooms.
This is kind of a genderinclusion 101 for educators.
Instead of saying boys andgirls say everybody line up, or
all of my scholars line up, or Idon't really like to use
friends in classrooms, but usingsome collective term that is
(18:58):
not disallowed, as far as I know, anywhere yet They'll hear this
and then they'll start changingthat.
But there are ways that we canjust create space, create
possibility, without necessarilygoing against many of these
really misinterpreted andmisaligned policies in
(19:19):
educational spaces.
Lindsay (19:21):
I love some subversion, particularly subtle subversion.
I've actually one of my mentorsand colleagues has said that
librarians tend to be verysubversive, and I could
certainly identify with that.
I was formerly a librarian andI'm educated as one, so I could
agree with that.
That's really helpful and Ilove this idea of identifying
(19:42):
what you can do.
We hear so much about what youcan't do, what you can't say,
how you can't be, but findingthat space, I think, also really
helps me to think even moredeeply about your first point,
that you know you occupy theresistance in different ways and
find your own ways of showingup.
I think that those two to me gohand in hand, that you're also
(20:04):
identifying those ways that makesense for me as an individual,
you know, but also are a way toshow up in those sort of subtly
or maybe not so subtlysubversive ways.
I think that's very, veryhelpful.
When I find myself inconversations about whether it's
trans youth, queer youth, itreally is often just a very
(20:26):
misunderstood kind of topic.
I can remember having aconversation within the last few
months of someone who I knowvery well We've talked about a
lot of tough topics over theyears and she said well, I don't
think that you know kids inkindergarten should be taught
about trans or queer people.
I said, well, what do you do ifyou have a trans child in the
(20:49):
room?
Then what?
What do you do if your studenthas same-sex parents?
What then?
I mean, does that change thingsat all?
Because I think that these aresituations that many folks in
the general public don't imagineexist.
But they do.
We know they do.
We've worked with young peoplewho have different family
(21:12):
structures, who have familystructures that aren't, you know
, mom and dad.
So I just I think thatsometimes it's just like you
said, it's a matter of sort ofputting some cracks in that
thinking and complexifying Likethis isn't a black and white
kind of conversation.
There's so many gray areas andso so many across the spectrum
of not only gender but sexuality.
(21:33):
I think that reinforcesstereotypical binaries,
(21:57):
especially around gendernormativity, that I think we've
got to do better than that.
Meg (22:03):
Agreed and it also creates makes me think about the
conversation you said you werehaving about.
You know, a kindergartnershouldn't be learning about
trans or transnist or queerness.
So many of these policies andthe public discourse creates
misconceptions about what'sactually happening in early
childhood and elementaryclassrooms.
I mean, nobody's walking in andasking any child what their
(22:26):
gender identity is.
But when a child starts movingbeyond, you know these normative
concepts of gender.
But when a child starts movingbeyond these normative concepts
of gender, leaving space is notharmful.
Constraining and limitingpossibility is harmful and
reproduces a lot of problems inour society.
So we're not going into akindergarten and saying guess
(22:47):
what?
Gender is irrelevant and allmade up, even though somewhere
deep down in queer theory wekind of think it is.
We don't bring that intokindergarten classrooms.
We're just saying like, yeah,okay, there's these some quote
unquote categories and oh, youdon't feel that category aligns
with you.
Okay, but maybe you come backto it, that's fine, that's it.
(23:09):
That's really all that'shappening.
Or, as you're saying, withfamilies, we're just opening
space for all family structuresand that goes beyond gender and
sexuality.
But think about how manychildren live with caregivers
who are not their biologicalparents?
How many children live withpeople who are not their family,
(23:30):
and so the language that we usein classrooms around families
really we need to look at itbeyond gender and sexuality and
be more expansive to berepresentative of those young
people in our classrooms.
Lindsay (23:43):
Yeah, I think you're so right about that and I think
when we do talk about classroomsas inclusive spaces, we just
sort of have to move beyond theway we were thinking about those
things, you know, 75 or 100years ago, you know, to
understand that there is roomfor everyone.
There is room for everyone inpublic education and really in
education everywhere, and thereshould be.
(24:04):
And so offering that support,offering that allyship, showing
up for every individual whocrosses the threshold into our
classrooms or everyone we mighteven come in contact with
outside of schools, I think it'sjust, it's so important for a
kinder world, a safer world and,ultimately, a much more
(24:26):
productive kind of society.
Whenever people aren't scaredto be who they feel they are,
they aren't scared to identify,you know, the way that they've
always felt they have.
So it's just.
It's such an importantconversation and I know over the
, particularly the last coupleof years, some of the policies
that have impacted educationhave just been so hateful.
(24:49):
Really, I haven't quite beenable to put my finger on whether
that is the hate there isintentional, or if this is just
a couple of folks who are scaredscared of, you know, I don't
know if it's losing their sliceof the pie, or you know what we
think the ultimate outcome isgoing to be if we don't make
space for everyone.
(25:09):
But I don't know, I'm not.
I'm not interested in inplaying that game.
I'm much more interested insupporting everyone.
But I don't know, I'm notinterested in playing that game.
I'm much more interested insupporting everyone.
Meg (25:17):
I agree completely when individuals show fear, and I do
think it's discomfort and fearof, as you said, losing the
slice of the pie.
Even when I experienced thatfeeling, that should be the
first indicator that you aretaking something away from
somebody else in order to getthat slice of the pie.
And it's uncomfortable to shiftin privilege and in familiarity
(25:39):
.
So you know, when I encounterindividuals who struggle with
concepts of gender diversity orsexuality beyond
heteronormativity, I try to keepthat in mind that there's a
great discomfort in theunfamiliar and it can feel
threatening.
It doesn't excuse behavior,harmful behavior, but it allows
me to maintain a sense of calmin that space and in that
(26:01):
conversation.
And personally, honestly, likebeing in queer community, being
in gender diverse community, isa huge part of my personal life.
It's a beautiful space, it is awild time, it's lovely, and
when I step into classrooms orwhen I am doing my work, my
gender, my sexuality, is theleast interesting thing about me
(26:23):
.
Can we just move on from thatpart of the conversation?
I would rather argue about oldpolicies like no child left
behind, and continue to argueabout these harmful policies
about gender and sexuality Likewe'd still have an educational
crisis that we need to address.
(26:44):
That has nothing to do withthese issues.
So, yeah, like we have so muchwork that we could be doing and
we could be so much moreproductive if we could recognize
the serious issues that arehappening with education broadly
.
And that's not blaming teachers.
I'm talking about funding andstructure and support and how we
view educators and education.
(27:05):
Those are the conversations weshould be having.
Lindsay (27:09):
Right, which also, I think, encompasses the
inclusivity we're really talkingabout here.
And something else you said,Meg.
It reminds me of something thatI heard from a past Classroom
Caffeine guest.
Judith Dunkerley-Bean, who wastalking about her child who is
trans, said the exact same thing.
(27:33):
That is the least interestingthing about me.
Get to know me as a person, youknow, because, of course,
throughout the presentation thatCam made in Judith's class, you
know there were so manyquestions about being trans, and
that is the least, leastinteresting thing about me.
Let's talk about some otherthings.
So, you know, that reminds meof something that came to mind
as you were talking andsomething that I think I
(27:53):
mentioned in my conversationwith Judith.
Anytime I have kind of a heatedconversation with someone about
trans individuals, I'll oftensay, well, do you know anyone
who's trans?
And pretty much 100%.
The answer is no, much 100%.
(28:18):
The answer is no.
So they're working fromsomething theoretical rather
than a more humanistic kind ofperspective, because I certainly
find that people are people.
You know, no matter how you mayidentify, no matter what
background you may come from,everybody has complex things
about them, everyone has reallyinteresting things about them,
everyone struggles with things,everyone excels at certain
things and, you know, when welook at humans at the end of the
(28:41):
day, as just humans, we're alljust trying to make it in this
world.
Meg (28:46):
I sometimes tell people like I come home at the end of
the day and I sit with my catand I cross stitch.
I'm the most boring queerperson.
We're not out here trying to bethreatening in any way.
Most of us just like doing artsand crafts in front of our TV.
So yeah, for the individualswho don't know any, here's an
(29:09):
introduction to what our livessometimes are like.
I don't want to discount thevery real historical oppression
that has happened in education,but what's happening right now
is we're bringing in anotherconversation that doesn't need.
Just let people be people andlet's address some of the larger
systemic issues that havehappened, especially in the US.
(29:31):
Let's put our time and energyinto that.
Let's not create more problems.
Yes, we need visibility, weneed representation, and that
hasn't historically happened forqueer and trans individuals.
But if we can just realize thatthose identities are
non-threatening, then we canmove forward and be more
productive in other areas ofoppression and education.
Lindsay (29:51):
I think that's such an important starting point for us.
Right, because, you're right,there are new policies that are
just exacerbating issues thatalready exist rather than
identifying a path forward whereeveryone can do their best work
, be their best selves and beconnected in a supportive and
(30:12):
enriching kind of community.
Yeah, we don't need morepolicies that work against those
kinds of goals because reallyit is counterproductive for
everyone Everyone.
So, yeah, I think that's justsuch an important message.
So, speaking of messages, giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
(30:32):
hear?
Meg (30:41):
You are seen and even when it feels like you are not heard,
people are listening.
I think being a teacher in aclassroom is one of the hardest
jobs that you can have right nowand it is very real that that
position is underpaid,under-respected, and yet you are
held to such high expectationsin your own education, your own
knowledge, the time that yougive the time away from your
families, your home, yourcommunities, and just know that
(31:05):
it is seen and that there arepeople out here working to
change things.
While it may feel like it isactively crumbling down, you are
not forgotten in those spacesand we absolutely need teachers.
Teachers are really the pathforward.
I went into education becausewhen I was a classroom teacher
every year I knew that therewere.
(31:26):
I was in a state where we hadway too many kids in the
classroom at times, but we'llsay 25.
There were about 25 humans thatI got to know and that I, at
one point in their lives, was apresence and had the opportunity
to hopefully support andinfluence in a positive way and
(31:48):
help them develop their sense ofself, and then they will go on
and replicate that, and so Ithink you know for teachers,
just remember when everythingelse is awful, when it feels
like it's too much, that onepiece that you as a human are
connecting with and have theopportunity to support and
develop.
Let's say, 25 on average youngpeople every year, and for some
(32:14):
it's more, for some it's fewer.
You know, in college courses wesee many, and even when I want
to just pull my hair out and Iam, you know, I'm like oh, we
were talking earlier.
You know, you don't have to likeeverybody, but you do have to
support them.
So when I have those, I'm likeI actually don't really like you
, but I'm going to support you.
The effect of educators isimmeasurable and this is one of
(32:39):
the few professions that we cansay that.
And so, again, just know thatyour work is valuable, know that
we are here, we see thedifficult times and if anybody,
if there are queer or transidentified educators listening
or researchers and you feel likeyou're alone, please reach out
to me.
I will be happy to be incommunity with you.
And even if you just needsomebody to jump on, zoom with
(33:01):
and let it all out, there'll beno judgment.
Lindsay (33:05):
That is a beautiful invitation and a really
important message, I think, meg.
So you're right, being ateacher is not only one of the
most impactful, valuablepositions one can have in the
world, it is also very difficult, and it does seem as though
there are policies that aim tomake that even more challenging.
(33:26):
But I really appreciate youoffering that space of community
to listeners, because I'veheard from some of my
pre-service teachers who'veactually left preparing for
becoming a teacher because theydon't feel that there's space
for them because of their genderidentity, their sexual identity
, and so I really appreciate youkind of putting that out there,
because it is important that weall feel seen and we all feel
(33:50):
heard, and I think that's whenwe do our very best work.
So I thank you so much for yourtime today and I thank you for
your contributions to the fieldof education.
Thank you for having me.
Dr Meg Jones studies queer andtrans issues in education,
including educational policy,school-based literacies and
teacher education.
Her work has been published inFrontiers, in STEM Education,
(34:12):
journal of Women and Gender, inHigher Education Journal of
Women and Minorities.
In was a visiting researcher atthe University of Helsinki in
(34:34):
Finland, where she worked with ateam to learn from and
contribute to internationalresearch situated in the Nordic
countries to focus on criticalissues in global education
broadly and Finnish educationlocally.
Dr Meg Jones is a graduate ofthe University of Rhode Island
and is currently an assistantprofessor of education at
(34:55):
Champlain College in Burlington,vermont, where she teaches
courses on public schooling andliteracy.
You can reach Meg at mjones atchamplainedu that's M-J-O-N-E-S
at C-H-A-M-P-L- p l a I n dotedu.
(35:21):
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
hear.
You can support the show bysubscribing, liking and
reviewing this podcast throughyour podcast provider.
(35:41):
Visit classroomcaffeinecomwhere you can subscribe to
receive our short monthlynewsletter, the Espresso Shot.
On our website, you can alsolearn more about each guest,
find transcripts for ourepisodes, explore topics using
our drop-down menu of tags,request an episode, topic or
potential guest, support ourresearch through our listener
(36:04):
survey or learn more about theresearch we're doing on our
publications page.
Connect with us on social mediathrough Instagram, facebook and
Twitter.
We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
abaya Valuru, stephanie Bransonand Shaba Oshfath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
(36:26):
Thanks for joining me.
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