October 10, 2023 • 42 mins
Dr. Pamela Mason is known for her work studying the role of culturally sustaining pedagogy in promoting literacy achievement, the interaction of text complexity and background knowledge, qualitative and quantitative literacy assessment, and the efficacy of the roles of Reading Specialists and Literacy Coaches. Dr. Mason collaborates with colleagues nationally and globally on preparing reading specialist teachers and literacy coaches, developing the capacity of school leaders as literacy advocates, and evaluating school-wide literacy programs. Dr. Pamela A. Mason is a senior lecturer on education, a Co-Chair of the Literacy and Languages concentration, and director of the Jeanne Chall Reading Lab at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Oct 10). A conversation with Pamela Mason (Season 4, No. 4) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/6ABE-99B5-0CD4-14EA-290B-K
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with the top education
researcher or expert educatorabout what they have learned
from their research andexperiences. In this episode,
(00:37):
Dr. Pamela Mason talks to usabout poetry in the science of
reading, empowering teacherslearner discovery and agency and
relationships and connections.
Dr. Mason is known for her workstudying the role of culturally
sustaining pedagogy andpromoting literacy achievement,
the interaction of textcomplexity and background
knowledge, qualitative andquantitative literacy
(01:00):
assessment, and the efficacy ofthe roles of reading specialists
and literacy coaches. Dr. Masoncollaborates with colleagues
nationally and globally onpreparing reading specialist
teachers and literacy coaches,developing the capacity of
school leaders as literacyadvocates, and evaluating school
wide literacy programs. Dr.
(01:22):
Pamela A. Mason is a seniorlecturer on education, and a co
chair of the literacy andlanguages concentration, and the
director of the gene Shawreading lab at the Harvard
Graduate School of Education.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode. So pour a cup ofyour favorite drink. And join me
(01:43):
your host, Lindsay Persohn. Forclassroom caffeine research to
energize your teaching practice.
Pamela, thank you for joiningme. Welcome to the show.
Pamela Mason (01:57):
Thank you, Lindsay. I'm really looking
forward to our conversation.
Lindsay Persohn (02:00):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now,
Pamela Mason (02:08):
one or two moments is a hard ask, but I will try to
comply
Lindsay Persohn (02:14):
it is feel free to tell us about as many moments
as you'd like.
Pamela Mason (02:18):
Right? I think that in in looking at the big
picture, just the power of beingincluded for learners and really
having an opportunity to respondto text across modalities. We're
talking a lot about multimodalmulti literacies now, and people
think multi literacies is aboutjust technology. But it really
(02:40):
is going back to the languagearts of reading, writing,
listening, speaking. And nowwe're into the technology and
the viewing, and I guess, thetexting and every other way that
we are using to communicate witheach other. So I think that that
is top of mind right now, aswell as just the power of
(03:04):
discovery. Discovering literacyis so important to learners. I
remember when I was supervisingone of my reading specialist
interns, and she was workingwith a learner and doing word
sorts and the young person wasseeing patterns and it just
burst out with Why didn'tanybody tell me this before. And
(03:27):
I think we have the curse ofknowledge that we are skilled
readers. And so there's a lotabout the reading process that
we've forgotten, it would belike having us teach an infant
or young, you know, a toddlerhow to blow their nose, I mean,
you know, we just kind of likeput the Kleenex there and it
(03:47):
happens, but there is actually aprocess and so it is hard. So
really giving learners thescaffolding to discover discover
language, language patterns,their structures, as well as
giving them the skills and theagency to to to move forward
without us you know, to applythis knowledge to other texts
(04:11):
and to enjoy those texts. So Ithink that those are the things
that you know, are top of mindright now, for me, as we you
know, enter in this era oflooking at, you know, early
literacy and early literacy inthe United States and I'm
working globally and looking atearly literacy especially in the
(04:34):
global south and the bluntlanguage structures that are
important to understand in orderto unlock the code. You know, we
we all most most of us live andspeak and read and write and
listen in code based languageswe have the logo graphic
languages, which are different,but in in in these other
(04:55):
languages. The code is importantas a key to unlocking meaning,
meaning of the text, meaningbetween the text and the reader,
meaning between the text thereader and other readers in
terms of a community of readersand writers and thinkers. So I
(05:16):
think that that's reallyimportant to me right now.
Lindsay Persohn (05:20):
Something in particular that you said,
Pamela, it kind of brings meback to this moment in
education. Right. Now, youmentioned that not only, of
course, is it important forlearners to understand patterns
and language and to have thatability to discover but then the
agency to use it, in my view, Ithink that's where the
conversation has gotten lost abit, particularly around
(05:40):
concepts like the science ofreading, because it seems as
though we're giving learners themessage that I'm going to spoon
feed you information. And unlessI spoon feed it to you, I don't
want you to do anything withthis knowledge. But really, when
we add discovery and agency tothat equation, I think our
students, they will take it somuch further than if we were to
(06:02):
just limit them to the skillswe're teaching.
Pamela Mason (06:05):
I agree, Lindsay, I agree, I think of a young
person. Again, I'm supervisingtheir reading specialist in
turn, and he wrote the word.
Again, I'm from Massachusetts,and we have a thing about ours.
So I have to like preface givethe listeners that context. So
he wrote the word, p, r, k, e.
(06:30):
And when asked what the wordwas, he said, he looked at me
like yours from Harvard ladyPark, because the E makes the R
say its name. And I did I mean,just trying to hold in my
laughter, my joy, he was given arule, he applied the rule. When
(06:51):
we say pa, you don't hear an Ayou all hear are and the sound
at the end. And so he had thisrule. And he was applying the
rule to the wrong letter.
Lindsay Persohn (07:05):
That's right, keeping it within those
boundaries he was given right,rather than taking in, perhaps
signs he'd seen right? When youenter something like a park,
right? So yeah, putting thosepieces together, it's just it's
so important for learners. It'sa great story.
Pamela Mason (07:21):
So they say a child shall lead us.
Lindsay Persohn (07:23):
That's right.
But you know, it is, in my mind,it's those moments that help us
as educators to uncover themisconceptions. And then to
think about how we teach thatconcept differently, or how we
potentially do provide caveatsor, you know, other other ways
of seeing this or, you know,applying it to what we notice in
our environment and those kindsof things. And if we're so
(07:44):
locked in if we're lockstep inteaching the rules of the
English language, I think we canmiss the forest for the trees to
extend the park metaphor.
Pamela Mason (07:53):
Yes, definitely.
Lindsay Persohn (07:57):
So Pamela, what do you want listeners to know
about your work?
Pamela Mason (08:01):
My work is really around empowering teachers. And
I believe that, you know, goodteaching, good first, teaching
is so essential. And I want toempower teachers to do two
things to have an effective andmotivating literacy instruction.
So to understand what that meanswhat that is, and this literacy
(08:22):
instruction to all learners, butalso about seeing and valuing
their learners so that thelearners feel connected to the
enterprise of school andlearning, which means including
their background, theirlanguages, because all of us
even if we think we only speakEnglish we speak Englishes we
(08:45):
don't speak the same English, Ihope to our elders, as we do to
our youngers, or in differentcontexts we speak our Englishes
differently, whether we're in aknitting circle, or a bowling
league or skydiving, you know,we have different context for
the language that we use, that'sappropriate. And that is, again
(09:09):
ties into their interests. Andso what what makes these these
learners click what what engagesthem? What do they want to learn
about? What do they want to readabout? I know that when I was an
elementary principal, we lookedat our intermediate data driven
instruction. We looked at ourstate tests, as we were to do,
and I said, Wait a minute, wedid really poorly with poetry.
(09:35):
And in Massachusetts, there wasthis passage at that particular
year, where the students weregiven a poem and an
informational article and askedto compare them. And my teachers
looked at me and said, the testis given in March. April is
(09:55):
Poetry Month. We hadn't taughtpoetry yet. So our data was
saying something about ourlearners, which actually was
saying more about our curriculumand our teaching. And it was
like, you know, one of those,oh, my goodness, you know, duh
moments. And so we made acommitment that we would take
(10:19):
your poetry throughout the year,and then celebrate it maybe in a
more intense way, in April. But,you know, like, not just
confined poetry to April,
Lindsay Persohn (10:32):
you know, I think that those kinds of things
happen more often, and maybe inless obvious ways, all the time
in schools, we just haven'tgotten there yet. You know, the
test calls for us to do X, Y, Z.
Well, that's not how ourcurriculum is aligned, or that's
not what our kids need. Youknow, that's a blatant example
of how you can make those shiftsin order to meet an artificial
(10:54):
or an imposed deadline. So youknow, it does help me to think a
little bit differently aboutwhat data tells us right, and
what we can actually glean fromthat.
Pamela Mason (11:05):
Yes. And I just, we, I think we all felt a little
badly that our learners werebeing categorized in a way, it's
not that they hadn't learnedwhat we had taught, we hadn't
taught. So they hadn't learnedit.
Lindsay Persohn (11:18):
Right. Yeah, yeah, it's, like I said, it's a
really obvious example, I thinkthat can help us to see those
types of potential implicationsof data a little bit
differently. And to think aboutthem differently.
Pamela Mason (11:29):
It had also, for me emphasizes the importance of
analyzing the data, like diggingdeeper than just looking at the
numbers, and looking at theitems and looking at the
standards and the skills thatare tied to those standards.
And, again, how and when they'rebeing assessed.
Lindsay Persohn (11:47):
Yeah, that context is so very important.
What else would you likelisteners to know about your
work?
Pamela Mason (11:52):
Well, I think that again, we kind of a segue into
poetry, I think that poetry iskind of the perfect genre, and
yet it is somewhat, you know,kind of segregated to one part
of the year when, in fact, itreally can address what is on
top of mind for many teachers interms of, you know, the science
(12:15):
of reading and the emphasis oncode, and what the code is, and
English, but also, it really,it's about meaning as well,
because, you know, we have allkinds of symbolism that we can
use in poetry, poetry can beshort and sweet, or long and
sour, and, and everything inbetween. And it offers this kind
(12:39):
of variety for our learners,especially our early literacy,
learners to engage in meaningfullanguage, looking at the code,
looking at meaning and havingsome fun, some joy, some
silliness, some laughter. Andthat is something that I want,
you know, that is really kind oftop of mind in terms of our of
(13:00):
our work, you know, and itreally made me kind of think,
again, about teaching as ascience as well as an art. And I
think poetry allows theartfulness to come to for both
for the teachers and for thelearners. And I referred back to
learn to read the great debateby Jeanne chall and my mentor,
(13:24):
and just want to share a littlebit of a long quote, but kind of
make a segue into how it mightrelate to the use of poetry in
classrooms. And she stated thebeginning code emphasis will not
cure all reading ills, it cannotguarantee that all children will
learn to read easily, nor havethe results of meaning Emphasis
(13:47):
Program has been so disastrous,that all academic and emotional
failures can be blamed on themas some proponents and
publishers of new code emphasisprograms claim. I reread this
book all the time, and it waslike, Oh, my goodness, she is
sitting on our shoulders,watching what's going on right
(14:10):
now. You know, and I also wasamazed that you kind of put in
that emotional piece because weare very much in tune with the
social emotional learning of ourstudents. And now also,
hopefully, the social emotionalwell being of our teachers,
because teachers who are hurtingwho are feeling overwhelmed who
(14:33):
are feeling blamed, cannot begood at their craft or their or
their art.
Lindsay Persohn (14:40):
When was that quote published?
Pamela Mason (14:42):
That quote was published in in 1967.
Lindsay Persohn (14:48):
And it could have been published today, it
seems you know, so here we areagain, and you know, a great
debate another pendulum swing,which I know some of my mentors
told me a bit about when I firststarted teaching, you know that
we do what's right for kids,regardless of what the flavor of
the day is. But you know, Ithink it does just remind me
(15:11):
that we've been here before.
Unfortunately, we'll probably behere again, in this sort of
great debate around whetherreading is a science or whether
it is an art. And I think thisidea of poetry is so impactful.
Because as you were talkingabout teaching as a science and
an art and poetry as a scienceand an art, it did really make
(15:32):
me think about how poeticteaching is. Right? It's not,
it's not easy. It's not alwaysformulaic. Right. So I think
there are lots of parallelsthere. But I think one thing
I've noticed in years of workingin teacher preparation, is that
sometimes I think our preservice teachers don't have much
(15:55):
experience with poetry, andtherefore they are reluctant to
try to teach with it becausethey don't necessarily
understand it themselves. Haveyou had some of those same
experiences?
Pamela Mason (16:07):
Most definitely.
Lindsay, you know, short ofRoses are red, violets are blue,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And sodo you can kind of kind of pick
anything in the middle. I thinkpeople are very intimidated by
poetry, you know, they think ofLangston Hughes, they think of
Shakespeare, but poetry, it'salways poetic, but it can be
just very rhyme oriented. So ifyou know if you're teaching word
(16:28):
families, you know, you can usethe ending rhymes, you know, a
BB Baby A, B, that whatever, youknow, kind of whatever rhyme
pattern you can. And so wereally are focusing on the
letter sound relationships, butit's the music of the language,
we're looking at the print, butpoetry is meant to be said out
loud. So you're thinking aboutthe the rhythm of the of the
(16:53):
language, as well as themechanics of word families, and
what rhymes and then we knowwhen the learners can move
forward to write these words,sound like they rhyme, but they
don't look the same. So thenwe're building in again, more
phonics, more code basedinvestigation of what letter
(17:16):
patterns make what sounds and isit? Is it boom? Or is it broom?
And, you know, and then is it?
You know, is it read or read?
You know, I used to tell peoplethat I love those kinds of
things. Because, you know, it's,is it reading or reading or, you
know, leading or, you know,letting you know, we the context
matters. And so really helpingstudents use poetry, which is
(17:41):
also can be short, it's notnecessarily text heavy. But it
can also be meaningful, andpowerful and symbolic and for
fun, and so it's not, you know,it's doesn't overwhelm the early
literacy learner.
Lindsay Persohn (18:02):
This, this really makes so much sense when
you situate poetry among notjust phonics. But you know, I
feel like you've really talkedacross the five pillars of
literacy, you know, that, right?
That this is about phonologicalawareness. This is about phonics
when we put it on paper, butit's also about fluency. When we
read it, and we rehearse it, itgives meaning to repeated
(18:24):
readings, right? It's not justread it read it five times,
because I told you read it fivetimes, so that you can read it
fluently, right? Writing poetry,reading, poetry, all also
relates to vocabulary, choosingthe right word for the job at
the right time that conveys themeaning, right? So it's also
getting to comprehension too. Idon't know that I've ever
(18:46):
thought about poetry in thisexpansive sort of way that I
think could help us to tie thoseconcepts together in ways that
are authentic and meaningful,but also address social,
emotional kinds of aspects of areally complex thinking. So
you've really got my wheels,turning about how I might be,
(19:07):
how I might be able toincorporate poetry a little bit
differently in the way that Iteach. Of course, we talk about
poetry and children'sliterature, but just like the
month of April, it probablyshouldn't be relegated to one
genre of literature.
Pamela Mason (19:24):
No, definitely. I as you were asking about pre
service teachers and with mymaster's students, I introduced
them to Don Holloways,demonstrate, participate,
practice perform model ofdealing with poetry, and I've
used it also when I was anelementary principal I've used
(19:45):
it with with students. Andagain, another very poignant
story was I love the poem, honeyi love by Eloise Greenfield, and
the bridge is the word andbetween each stanza, is the word
and, and I was covering a fourthgrade class and there was a
(20:05):
young learner there who hadlearning issues and executive
functioning issues and but hadbeen fully included since
kindergarten. And I gave each ofthe groups a stanza because we
went through the demonstration.
So we read the poem aloudtogether. And then we did
participation. They heard meread it. Then they participated
(20:25):
by reading Chorally. And then Igave each of four groups, a
stanza and the and, and when hewe were reading it together,
Chorally really kind of latchedon to the And. And each of the
groups said, No, he needs to bein our group because we need him
for the end, we need him. And hewas like, walking three feet
above the classroom floorbecause everybody needed the
(20:50):
And, which was the bridge thecement between the stanzas Okay,
I'm getting goosebumps. Now. Ithappened a long time ago, I
called his mother I said, shesaid, He is the poster child for
inclusion. So they, they reallyresonated with the And. And I've
(21:10):
used this poem with my master'sstudents. And they come up with
all kinds of ways to act out. Soagain, multimodal, you know, act
out the stanzas act out theaction within the poem, I've
done it with teachers, and oneof the groups actually had a
(21:32):
sign language translation oftheir stanza. So they really
brought in a lot of differentways of presenting the same
poem, and even just one stanza,and each group goes, Oh, we
hadn't thought about doing that,what that way. And so it really
is a fun and they really enjoythat activity a lot. And then we
(21:56):
go back and I give them littleword cards and say, okay, find
a, you know, a word because Ihave a big display of this poem,
you know, find, find this wordin the poem, find a word that
rhymes with this word. So we'redoing our word study, along with
just the poetry and the imagery,and the performance. And it
(22:20):
really has been very impactful.
Because we have, you know, theonsets and rimes you can bring
in alliteration with beginningsounds, you know, the repetition
and the patterns and always myfavorite the onomatopoeia. You
know, I love saying the word, welove doing the word and
(22:41):
everybody likes to chug, chug,chug along.
Lindsay Persohn (22:44):
Yeah, it is so much fun. And the kind of
intellectual engagement thatyou're describing, I think it
reminds us of how much fun wordscan be, you know, whenever we
get beyond just sort of reducingthem to on sets and rhymes. But
instead of applying that tosomething that is meaningful,
not just in one context, or it'snot just, you know, so often I
(23:06):
think comprehension in schoolsis reduced to the right answer,
right? And what what is theright answer anyway, you know, I
think about those things fairlyoften, particularly when it
comes to things like acceleratedreader in some of those
programs, where you're askingkids to identify meaning, but it
doesn't really necessarily haveanything to do with them, or the
(23:27):
meaning they make. It's themeaning that, you know, a test
writer has made of that. Butwith poetry, right, you can
introduce new stanzas, and youcan build off of each other and
have that really richconversation around will will it
meant something different to me,or, Oh, I thought about this
word, or this concept a littlebit differently, and just the
kind of intellectual engagementand also social engagement that
(23:47):
comes with those kinds ofconversations. I just, I don't
know if you can beat that, youknow, I don't know if you can
top that with with anythingelse.
Pamela Mason (23:55):
I hope that your listeners will will reconsider
poetry, you know, and not beintimidated by it. I know when I
was in school, I always thoughtthat the teacher had the right
answer that there was a rightanswer in responding to poetry
and, and sometimes it is taughtthat way. But I'm encouraging
your listeners to think about,you know, divergent thinking,
(24:18):
critical thinking, and you know,can we how does this these
concepts as this imagery relateto you and your family? Thinking
about again about Honey, I loveEloise Greenfield does do many
of her poems are about familyand friendships. And so I think
our poems provide a nice entrypoint for most children,
(24:40):
regardless of their ethnicity ortheir background, or their
language and they can alwaystalk about family and
friendships, in their languageand bring in things that rhyme
in their language in their homelanguage, their mother tongue
and then see how it doesn't ordoes kind of translate into to
English and do the conceptstranslate, because our words are
(25:05):
not just, you know what theymean in the dictionary, they're
they're denotation. There's allthese connotations, these
contexts. And, you know, whenyou use these words and the
motions that they bring forward,and again, that's kind of going
to the social emotional learningpart that we've, we've known
(25:25):
that was important for many,many decades. But with
unfortunately, the pandemic,it's really kind of smacked us
in the face, like, Okay, wecan't get very far if we're not
feeling safe, if we're notfeeling protected. And I think
that those are so important inour, in our classrooms, and
(25:48):
providing poetry is a way of, ofseeing and hearing and valuing
our learners in very authenticways.
Lindsay Persohn (25:57):
Well, so often, I think we try to do more in
education by doing more, insteadof doing things that are
interconnected and workingsmarter at building these
constructs, helping studentsunderstand concepts in a way
that you're talking about. It'sso interconnected. And I feel
like this happens to me a lot onthe show, but it seems so
(26:19):
logical, like it was right therein front of us all along. But
instead, we try to, uh, well,let's add this program, right,
let's add this specific programfor social emotional learning,
let's add this program forphonics instruction. I know, as
a classroom teacher, I alwaysfelt like, as those things are
added, nothing's ever takenaway. So you're just doing
writing. So you're just doingmore and more and more, instead
(26:40):
of thinking about how we canfocus on a couple of things, and
do those really well, andidentify the connections across
those different subject areas orconcepts that we're trying to
teach. So you've really got methinking very differently about
how these ideas can fit in waysthat don't feel like doing more,
but instead feel like doingbetter?
Pamela Mason (27:02):
Yes, and I think there's, you know, and again,
debunking the idea that poetryhas to rhyme. So there are two
templates that I've used that,and others have shared with me,
you know, kind of the I ampoems, and so there's a little
bit of a scaffolding of, youknow, I am and what you like,
and so it's a nice way for forstudents to share who they are
(27:26):
as little or as much as theyfeel comfortable. And for
teachers to learn who theirstudents are. And Lindsey,
they're writing,
Lindsay Persohn (27:36):
right? Oh, by the way, they're writing
Pamela Mason (27:38):
They are writing, and they're writing about
themselves. And so we'relearning about them. But if you
want to look at their writing,you know, how are they
representing sounds and symbols?
What do they know about thecode, how is that demonstrated
in their writing and what wordsthey choose to use. And then
there's another template is I amfrom, so it really talks about,
(27:58):
you know, who they are, andwhere they feel they're from,
and that really broadens theclassroom to bring in all of the
students backgrounds, be theyyou know, just recent
immigrants, or second or thirdgeneration, but they still may
have connections through eldersto other places, and where are
(28:19):
those other places? Whatemotions are evoked by thinking
about or returning to thoseother places,
Lindsay Persohn (28:29):
that also gives us opportunities to identify
when maybe students don't feelsolidly anchored to a place or a
people or a culture, because Ithink that's just important to
know, also, you know, if you dohave someone who maybe doesn't
know a whole lot about theirfamily, or is living in a foster
care situation, or somethinglike that, where you know, where
they're from, might tell ussomething very different. And so
(28:52):
that idea of personalizing thewriting, the learning the
thinking, I just think it cantake us so far. But without
feeling like we're adding a lotto our to do list. It's like I
said, it's just, it just allseems to make so much sense to
me.
Pamela Mason (29:06):
And also, it's not, it doesn't feel as
intrusive, you know, for ateacher, right? Tell me about
yourself. No, we're writingpoems and you know it, it
creates a little bit of adistance. It's not a
confrontation about telling meeverything I need to know about
you. But more, here's anopportunity for you to share
(29:26):
what you want us to know aboutyou. Right?
Lindsay Persohn (29:31):
No, I love that. I think that's, it's just
such a smart way to work at somany things at once. So you've
mentioned a couple of starts topoetry that you have and that
really caused me to think Do youhave any resources that you
might want to point listeners toparticularly if we are thinking
about teachers or pre serviceteachers, even experienced
(29:52):
teachers who don't feel likethey have a whole lot of their
own experience with poetry? Doyou have any anything you can
point us to?
Pamela Mason (29:59):
Well, I Georgia heard awakening the heart. It's
an oldie but goodie, I thinkthat she has kind of revised it
a several times. But she talksabout six areas of using poetry
that she has and the music andthe meaning in her poetry
toolbox. And so she also hasideas for poems in your pocket,
(30:23):
and children writing short poemsto each other as a morning
greeting, so I would definitelysuggest awakening the heart, and
then just reading poems, intheir in there everywhere that
personification multiple wordmeanings, their song lyrics,
again, some some songs you can'tbring to school, I understand
(30:45):
that. But, you know, there aresongs and their little rhymes
their jump rope chants that thechildren may use that's poetry.
Lindsay Persohn (30:58):
Right, that
Pamela Mason (30:59):
poetry like, oh, it just seems so kind of like
out there. But there is musicallanguage around us all the time.
So I would, I would say that,again, finding some poem poetry
that that, you know, poetrybooks, anthology, consulting
with your school librarian,hopefully you have one, they are
(31:21):
your friend. And you know,there's also a lot of poetry
around informational text, youknow how things work, and
historical events. PaulFleischmanns, joyful noise is a
book of poems about bugs,insects, but talks about their
(31:41):
habitats, their eating patterns,you get a lot of information
about, you know, when you'rereading these poems about
insects, and their poems for twovoices. So you have to kind of
share and the whole burden isn'ton one reader, you have to
cooperate, and you get thatrhythm and that interchange. And
(32:04):
as you mentioned, the fluencyand you get to practice it, and
you get to laugh and have funwhen you kind of mess up and
read somebody else's line.
Because you know, the world, theworld is not going to stop
stealing, it's not going to fallto the floor, you'll be fine.
Lindsay Persohn (32:18):
Right? Right, there is a YouTube video of two
high school girls who areperforming joyful noise. And
it's something that I've sharedwith my children's literature
course, they act it out, they dothe movements. It's absolutely
incredible to see, you know, andI think that also speaks to how
useful poetry can be across agelevels, grade levels, right,
(32:40):
because we would typically thinkof the book joyful noise as, you
know, maybe something forelementary age students. But as
you mentioned, the the length ofthe text doesn't necessarily
have anything to do with thedepth of the meaning. And so,
you know, I think that that thatis also really important
reminder is that sometimes wemight look at a text and think
of it in one way, but it can beinterpreted in multiple ways and
(33:03):
in really rich kinds of ways asthese girls have done with
joyful noise in what I found tobe an extremely entertaining and
lively video. So I may see if Ican find the link to that and
post it with this conversationbecause it's just so good.
Pamela Mason (33:18):
Yeah. I am not familiar with it. I do that
there are a couple of greatvideos on YouTube of young
people in classrooms, recitingHoney, I love and it just always
kind of brings me to tears andit's it's fun, right? It's fun.
Lindsay Persohn (33:36):
I think these are the kinds of resources that
can potentially help us to kindof break the ice if we're
feeling like we don't reallyknow where to go with poetry or
how to incorporate it there areso many resources out there that
we can go to to see how othereducators how other teachers how
other young people are usingpoetry in their lives in ways
that we may have neverconsidered before.
Pamela Mason (33:58):
Yeah, they're they're listening to spoken
word. They're listening to songsand you know, we could
investigate them or get the kidsbop version. And talk about you
know, the symbolism that's,that's inherent in those songs.
I just read listened to to IndiaArie's, strength, courage and
(34:19):
wisdom. And there's just a lotof alliteration and repetition,
as well as rhyming patternswithin that one song. You know,
kind of going to date myselfgive me Holland Dozier in
Holland and give me some ofthose Motown you know, ain't too
proud to beg. And there are lotsof rhymes and stuff all in
there. And but it's you know,you don't think of it as poetry
(34:40):
but that's what it is. You know,we've got Nikki Grimes, I just
finished reading her bookBetween the Lines and it's a
very clever and way up. There'sa narrative story and within the
narrative is poems by each ofthe different characters,
(35:01):
because the characters are inhigh school, and they're
building up to a poetry slam. Soit's talking about the two
groups of students, they're inteams. And then they're getting
to know each other. So thenarrative is around who they are
and how they're interacting. Andthen there's the poems that
they, as characters havecomposed, talking about
(35:24):
themselves, or the issues thatthey are addressing. And it is,
you know, spectacular, it'sreally great writing. And it's a
good read, it's a good ya readas well. But it just almost
seamlessly encourages the poetryand the foil is that the
protagonist wants to be anewspaper reporter. And his
(35:49):
counselor says, you need to knowabout poetry. Because if you
want to be a good reporter, youneed to connect with the story
and the storytellers. And youneed to be able to come up with
headlines. So you need to knowpoetry. And it's just like,
(36:11):
everybody, I was scratching mythe character scratching head at
that advice, I'm scratching andthen you read the rest of the
novel, and you go, Oh, yeah,
Lindsay Persohn (36:20):
yeah, yeah, I get it. And I, you know, I
haven't read that book yet. Sothat will certainly be added to
my list. But I think it alsohelps us to think differently
about what writing can be, andthe different ways that we
express our ideas, and inherentin writing like that, there's so
much agency for kids. So kind ofback to that idea of discovering
an agency and really openingdoors for kids when I think,
(36:45):
unfortunately, so many schoolopportunities can closed doors
for kids.
Pamela Mason (36:50):
Yes, yes. And I don't think intentionally No,
but they but they, but butthat's how it's received. That's
how it's received. For thelearner and or their families.
Lindsay Persohn (37:01):
Right. Yeah. I mean, we could we could talk
about family involvement, thatmight be another episode.
Pamela Mason (37:06):
Yes, but in terms of other resources, you know,
Jason Reynolds is a great writerand poet. And he's got a couple
of great YouTube videos thattalk about the power of of using
poetry. You know, and of course,there's, you know, Amanda Gorman
and her are wonderful. She doesa lot with rhyme, but also a lot
(37:28):
with metaphor and symbolism.
Yeah, kind of push that up, youknow, to the middle school, high
school level.
Lindsay Persohn (37:38):
And I think there's something about seeing
poets read their own poetry thatis so impactful. And I, I think
particularly of Amanda Gormanand her her reading of that
poetry, it adds a motion that wemight not get otherwise, it adds
meaning that we might not getotherwise. But I think that also
leads to some really richconversation with students about
what poetry is and how it how itcan potentially work in our
(38:02):
lives and how it can convey amessage to someone else. So
yeah, this is all really greatstuff. And I'm with you, Jason
Reynolds has some outstandingvideos out there. And some of
them are really just snippets.
Right. There's something aboutJason Reynolds, I think you feel
like you feel like you get toknow him. Even in a minute and a
half video, you feel like youknow something about him,
(38:22):
there's something so personableabout him that I think can also
help us to think about whatpoetry is and how it could be
used in classrooms.
Pamela Mason (38:31):
Yes, he she, he's vulnerable, and he shares his
vulnerabilities and in that way,maybe encourages and inspires
sports, our learners to bevulnerable in ways that they
might not have thought of.
Lindsay Persohn (38:47):
Right, be it and it gives them permission to,
I think to see, you know, to seean adult doing that they can be
vulnerable to. So Pamela giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Pamela Mason (39:01):
That you are important that you knowing your
learners is important, as wellas knowing what your learners
need to know. And unless yourlearners feel seen, heard and
accepted and safe in yourclassrooms, you can be giving
(39:22):
the best lesson you can you canbe following the script to the
tee and unfortunately, it mightnot get you the results that you
were hoping for.
Lindsay Persohn (39:33):
That's so important. Those connections are
everything. I think I felt thatin every grade level I've taught
every student I've worked withthe connection makes such a
difference.
Pamela Mason (39:45):
And I've I've really had to bring that lesson
to my work with master'sstudents. You know, and it
always reminds me when we dothis poetry unit, you know that
then watching them giggle andhave fun and I'm going Yeah,
Okay, we can be scholarly and wecan be rigorous and we're using,
you know, research basedinstruction. But you can't do it
(40:08):
without the joy.
Lindsay Persohn (40:09):
Right. Right.
What an important message. Well,Pamela, I thank you so much for
your time today. I've reallyenjoyed our conversation. And I
thank you for your tremendouscontributions to the world of
education.
Pamela Mason (40:22):
Oh, thank you, Lindsay. It's my pleasure, and
it's a blessing to be able to dothis work.
Lindsay Persohn (40:27):
Dr. Pamela A.
Mason is known for her workstudying the role of culturally
sustaining pedagogy andpromoting literacy achievement,
the interaction of textcomplexity and background
knowledge, qualitative andquantitative literacy
assessment, and the efficacy ofthe roles of reading specialists
and literacy coaches. Dr. Masoncollaborates with colleagues
(40:47):
nationally and globally onpreparing reading specialist
teachers and literacy coaches,developing the capacity of
school leaders as literacyadvocates, and evaluating school
wide literacy programs. Dr.
Mason has extensive experienceas a reading language arts
curriculum coordinator, and asan elementary school principal
(41:08):
serving in both urban andsuburban districts. She's active
in the International LiteracyAssociation, the literacy
Research Association and theNational Council of Teachers of
English, serving on the standingcommittee against censorship.
Dr. Pamela a Mason is a seniorlecturer on education, a co
chair of the literacy andlanguages concentration, and
(41:30):
director of the gene shellreading lab at the Harvard
Graduate School of Education.
For the good of all studentsclassroom caffeine aims to
energize education research andpractice. If this show provides
you with things to think about,help us spread the word. Talk to
your colleagues and educatorfriends about what you hear. You
can support the show bysubscribing liking and reviewing
(41:51):
this podcast through yourpodcast provider. Connect with
us on social media throughInstagram, Facebook and Twitter,
on our website at classroomcaffeine.com You can learn more
about each guest findtranscripts of our episodes,
explore topics using our dropdown menu of tags, request an
episode topic or potential guestsupport our research through a
(42:15):
listener survey or learn moreabout the research we're doing
on our publications page. Wewould love to hear from you. As
always, I raised my mug to youteachers. Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with the top education
researcher or expert educatorabout what they have learned
from their research andexperiences. In this episode,
(00:37):
Dr. Pamela Mason talks to usabout poetry in the science of
reading, empowering teacherslearner discovery and agency and
relationships and connections.
Dr. Mason is known for her workstudying the role of culturally
sustaining pedagogy andpromoting literacy achievement,
the interaction of textcomplexity and background
knowledge, qualitative andquantitative literacy
(01:00):
assessment, and the efficacy ofthe roles of reading specialists
and literacy coaches. Dr. Masoncollaborates with colleagues
nationally and globally onpreparing reading specialist
teachers and literacy coaches,developing the capacity of
school leaders as literacyadvocates, and evaluating school
wide literacy programs. Dr.
(01:22):
Pamela A. Mason is a seniorlecturer on education, and a co
chair of the literacy andlanguages concentration, and the
director of the gene Shawreading lab at the Harvard
Graduate School of Education.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode. So pour a cup ofyour favorite drink. And join me
(01:43):
your host, Lindsay Persohn. Forclassroom caffeine research to
energize your teaching practice.
Pamela, thank you for joiningme. Welcome to the show.
Pamela Mason (01:57):
Thank you, Lindsay. I'm really looking
forward to our conversation.
Lindsay Persohn (02:00):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now,
Pamela Mason (02:08):
one or two moments is a hard ask, but I will try to
comply
Lindsay Persohn (02:14):
it is feel free to tell us about as many moments
as you'd like.
Pamela Mason (02:18):
Right? I think that in in looking at the big
picture, just the power of beingincluded for learners and really
having an opportunity to respondto text across modalities. We're
talking a lot about multimodalmulti literacies now, and people
think multi literacies is aboutjust technology. But it really
(02:40):
is going back to the languagearts of reading, writing,
listening, speaking. And nowwe're into the technology and
the viewing, and I guess, thetexting and every other way that
we are using to communicate witheach other. So I think that that
is top of mind right now, aswell as just the power of
(03:04):
discovery. Discovering literacyis so important to learners. I
remember when I was supervisingone of my reading specialist
interns, and she was workingwith a learner and doing word
sorts and the young person wasseeing patterns and it just
burst out with Why didn'tanybody tell me this before. And
(03:27):
I think we have the curse ofknowledge that we are skilled
readers. And so there's a lotabout the reading process that
we've forgotten, it would belike having us teach an infant
or young, you know, a toddlerhow to blow their nose, I mean,
you know, we just kind of likeput the Kleenex there and it
(03:47):
happens, but there is actually aprocess and so it is hard. So
really giving learners thescaffolding to discover discover
language, language patterns,their structures, as well as
giving them the skills and theagency to to to move forward
without us you know, to applythis knowledge to other texts
(04:11):
and to enjoy those texts. So Ithink that those are the things
that you know, are top of mindright now, for me, as we you
know, enter in this era oflooking at, you know, early
literacy and early literacy inthe United States and I'm
working globally and looking atearly literacy especially in the
(04:34):
global south and the bluntlanguage structures that are
important to understand in orderto unlock the code. You know, we
we all most most of us live andspeak and read and write and
listen in code based languageswe have the logo graphic
languages, which are different,but in in in these other
(04:55):
languages. The code is importantas a key to unlocking meaning,
meaning of the text, meaningbetween the text and the reader,
meaning between the text thereader and other readers in
terms of a community of readersand writers and thinkers. So I
(05:16):
think that that's reallyimportant to me right now.
Lindsay Persohn (05:20):
Something in particular that you said,
Pamela, it kind of brings meback to this moment in
education. Right. Now, youmentioned that not only, of
course, is it important forlearners to understand patterns
and language and to have thatability to discover but then the
agency to use it, in my view, Ithink that's where the
conversation has gotten lost abit, particularly around
(05:40):
concepts like the science ofreading, because it seems as
though we're giving learners themessage that I'm going to spoon
feed you information. And unlessI spoon feed it to you, I don't
want you to do anything withthis knowledge. But really, when
we add discovery and agency tothat equation, I think our
students, they will take it somuch further than if we were to
(06:02):
just limit them to the skillswe're teaching.
Pamela Mason (06:05):
I agree, Lindsay, I agree, I think of a young
person. Again, I'm supervisingtheir reading specialist in
turn, and he wrote the word.
Again, I'm from Massachusetts,and we have a thing about ours.
So I have to like preface givethe listeners that context. So
he wrote the word, p, r, k, e.
(06:30):
And when asked what the wordwas, he said, he looked at me
like yours from Harvard ladyPark, because the E makes the R
say its name. And I did I mean,just trying to hold in my
laughter, my joy, he was given arule, he applied the rule. When
(06:51):
we say pa, you don't hear an Ayou all hear are and the sound
at the end. And so he had thisrule. And he was applying the
rule to the wrong letter.
Lindsay Persohn (07:05):
That's right, keeping it within those
boundaries he was given right,rather than taking in, perhaps
signs he'd seen right? When youenter something like a park,
right? So yeah, putting thosepieces together, it's just it's
so important for learners. It'sa great story.
Pamela Mason (07:21):
So they say a child shall lead us.
Lindsay Persohn (07:23):
That's right.
But you know, it is, in my mind,it's those moments that help us
as educators to uncover themisconceptions. And then to
think about how we teach thatconcept differently, or how we
potentially do provide caveatsor, you know, other other ways
of seeing this or, you know,applying it to what we notice in
our environment and those kindsof things. And if we're so
(07:44):
locked in if we're lockstep inteaching the rules of the
English language, I think we canmiss the forest for the trees to
extend the park metaphor.
Pamela Mason (07:53):
Yes, definitely.
Lindsay Persohn (07:57):
So Pamela, what do you want listeners to know
about your work?
Pamela Mason (08:01):
My work is really around empowering teachers. And
I believe that, you know, goodteaching, good first, teaching
is so essential. And I want toempower teachers to do two
things to have an effective andmotivating literacy instruction.
So to understand what that meanswhat that is, and this literacy
(08:22):
instruction to all learners, butalso about seeing and valuing
their learners so that thelearners feel connected to the
enterprise of school andlearning, which means including
their background, theirlanguages, because all of us
even if we think we only speakEnglish we speak Englishes we
(08:45):
don't speak the same English, Ihope to our elders, as we do to
our youngers, or in differentcontexts we speak our Englishes
differently, whether we're in aknitting circle, or a bowling
league or skydiving, you know,we have different context for
the language that we use, that'sappropriate. And that is, again
(09:09):
ties into their interests. Andso what what makes these these
learners click what what engagesthem? What do they want to learn
about? What do they want to readabout? I know that when I was an
elementary principal, we lookedat our intermediate data driven
instruction. We looked at ourstate tests, as we were to do,
and I said, Wait a minute, wedid really poorly with poetry.
(09:35):
And in Massachusetts, there wasthis passage at that particular
year, where the students weregiven a poem and an
informational article and askedto compare them. And my teachers
looked at me and said, the testis given in March. April is
(09:55):
Poetry Month. We hadn't taughtpoetry yet. So our data was
saying something about ourlearners, which actually was
saying more about our curriculumand our teaching. And it was
like, you know, one of those,oh, my goodness, you know, duh
moments. And so we made acommitment that we would take
(10:19):
your poetry throughout the year,and then celebrate it maybe in a
more intense way, in April. But,you know, like, not just
confined poetry to April,
Lindsay Persohn (10:32):
you know, I think that those kinds of things
happen more often, and maybe inless obvious ways, all the time
in schools, we just haven'tgotten there yet. You know, the
test calls for us to do X, Y, Z.
Well, that's not how ourcurriculum is aligned, or that's
not what our kids need. Youknow, that's a blatant example
of how you can make those shiftsin order to meet an artificial
(10:54):
or an imposed deadline. So youknow, it does help me to think a
little bit differently aboutwhat data tells us right, and
what we can actually glean fromthat.
Pamela Mason (11:05):
Yes. And I just, we, I think we all felt a little
badly that our learners werebeing categorized in a way, it's
not that they hadn't learnedwhat we had taught, we hadn't
taught. So they hadn't learnedit.
Lindsay Persohn (11:18):
Right. Yeah, yeah, it's, like I said, it's a
really obvious example, I thinkthat can help us to see those
types of potential implicationsof data a little bit
differently. And to think aboutthem differently.
Pamela Mason (11:29):
It had also, for me emphasizes the importance of
analyzing the data, like diggingdeeper than just looking at the
numbers, and looking at theitems and looking at the
standards and the skills thatare tied to those standards.
And, again, how and when they'rebeing assessed.
Lindsay Persohn (11:47):
Yeah, that context is so very important.
What else would you likelisteners to know about your
work?
Pamela Mason (11:52):
Well, I think that again, we kind of a segue into
poetry, I think that poetry iskind of the perfect genre, and
yet it is somewhat, you know,kind of segregated to one part
of the year when, in fact, itreally can address what is on
top of mind for many teachers interms of, you know, the science
(12:15):
of reading and the emphasis oncode, and what the code is, and
English, but also, it really,it's about meaning as well,
because, you know, we have allkinds of symbolism that we can
use in poetry, poetry can beshort and sweet, or long and
sour, and, and everything inbetween. And it offers this kind
(12:39):
of variety for our learners,especially our early literacy,
learners to engage in meaningfullanguage, looking at the code,
looking at meaning and havingsome fun, some joy, some
silliness, some laughter. Andthat is something that I want,
you know, that is really kind oftop of mind in terms of our of
(13:00):
our work, you know, and itreally made me kind of think,
again, about teaching as ascience as well as an art. And I
think poetry allows theartfulness to come to for both
for the teachers and for thelearners. And I referred back to
learn to read the great debateby Jeanne chall and my mentor,
(13:24):
and just want to share a littlebit of a long quote, but kind of
make a segue into how it mightrelate to the use of poetry in
classrooms. And she stated thebeginning code emphasis will not
cure all reading ills, it cannotguarantee that all children will
learn to read easily, nor havethe results of meaning Emphasis
(13:47):
Program has been so disastrous,that all academic and emotional
failures can be blamed on themas some proponents and
publishers of new code emphasisprograms claim. I reread this
book all the time, and it waslike, Oh, my goodness, she is
sitting on our shoulders,watching what's going on right
(14:10):
now. You know, and I also wasamazed that you kind of put in
that emotional piece because weare very much in tune with the
social emotional learning of ourstudents. And now also,
hopefully, the social emotionalwell being of our teachers,
because teachers who are hurtingwho are feeling overwhelmed who
(14:33):
are feeling blamed, cannot begood at their craft or their or
their art.
Lindsay Persohn (14:40):
When was that quote published?
Pamela Mason (14:42):
That quote was published in in 1967.
Lindsay Persohn (14:48):
And it could have been published today, it
seems you know, so here we areagain, and you know, a great
debate another pendulum swing,which I know some of my mentors
told me a bit about when I firststarted teaching, you know that
we do what's right for kids,regardless of what the flavor of
the day is. But you know, Ithink it does just remind me
(15:11):
that we've been here before.
Unfortunately, we'll probably behere again, in this sort of
great debate around whetherreading is a science or whether
it is an art. And I think thisidea of poetry is so impactful.
Because as you were talkingabout teaching as a science and
an art and poetry as a scienceand an art, it did really make
(15:32):
me think about how poeticteaching is. Right? It's not,
it's not easy. It's not alwaysformulaic. Right. So I think
there are lots of parallelsthere. But I think one thing
I've noticed in years of workingin teacher preparation, is that
sometimes I think our preservice teachers don't have much
(15:55):
experience with poetry, andtherefore they are reluctant to
try to teach with it becausethey don't necessarily
understand it themselves. Haveyou had some of those same
experiences?
Pamela Mason (16:07):
Most definitely.
Lindsay, you know, short ofRoses are red, violets are blue,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And sodo you can kind of kind of pick
anything in the middle. I thinkpeople are very intimidated by
poetry, you know, they think ofLangston Hughes, they think of
Shakespeare, but poetry, it'salways poetic, but it can be
just very rhyme oriented. So ifyou know if you're teaching word
(16:28):
families, you know, you can usethe ending rhymes, you know, a
BB Baby A, B, that whatever, youknow, kind of whatever rhyme
pattern you can. And so wereally are focusing on the
letter sound relationships, butit's the music of the language,
we're looking at the print, butpoetry is meant to be said out
loud. So you're thinking aboutthe the rhythm of the of the
(16:53):
language, as well as themechanics of word families, and
what rhymes and then we knowwhen the learners can move
forward to write these words,sound like they rhyme, but they
don't look the same. So thenwe're building in again, more
phonics, more code basedinvestigation of what letter
(17:16):
patterns make what sounds and isit? Is it boom? Or is it broom?
And, you know, and then is it?
You know, is it read or read?
You know, I used to tell peoplethat I love those kinds of
things. Because, you know, it's,is it reading or reading or, you
know, leading or, you know,letting you know, we the context
matters. And so really helpingstudents use poetry, which is
(17:41):
also can be short, it's notnecessarily text heavy. But it
can also be meaningful, andpowerful and symbolic and for
fun, and so it's not, you know,it's doesn't overwhelm the early
literacy learner.
Lindsay Persohn (18:02):
This, this really makes so much sense when
you situate poetry among notjust phonics. But you know, I
feel like you've really talkedacross the five pillars of
literacy, you know, that, right?
That this is about phonologicalawareness. This is about phonics
when we put it on paper, butit's also about fluency. When we
read it, and we rehearse it, itgives meaning to repeated
(18:24):
readings, right? It's not justread it read it five times,
because I told you read it fivetimes, so that you can read it
fluently, right? Writing poetry,reading, poetry, all also
relates to vocabulary, choosingthe right word for the job at
the right time that conveys themeaning, right? So it's also
getting to comprehension too. Idon't know that I've ever
(18:46):
thought about poetry in thisexpansive sort of way that I
think could help us to tie thoseconcepts together in ways that
are authentic and meaningful,but also address social,
emotional kinds of aspects of areally complex thinking. So
you've really got my wheels,turning about how I might be,
(19:07):
how I might be able toincorporate poetry a little bit
differently in the way that Iteach. Of course, we talk about
poetry and children'sliterature, but just like the
month of April, it probablyshouldn't be relegated to one
genre of literature.
Pamela Mason (19:24):
No, definitely. I as you were asking about pre
service teachers and with mymaster's students, I introduced
them to Don Holloways,demonstrate, participate,
practice perform model ofdealing with poetry, and I've
used it also when I was anelementary principal I've used
(19:45):
it with with students. Andagain, another very poignant
story was I love the poem, honeyi love by Eloise Greenfield, and
the bridge is the word andbetween each stanza, is the word
and, and I was covering a fourthgrade class and there was a
(20:05):
young learner there who hadlearning issues and executive
functioning issues and but hadbeen fully included since
kindergarten. And I gave each ofthe groups a stanza because we
went through the demonstration.
So we read the poem aloudtogether. And then we did
participation. They heard meread it. Then they participated
(20:25):
by reading Chorally. And then Igave each of four groups, a
stanza and the and, and when hewe were reading it together,
Chorally really kind of latchedon to the And. And each of the
groups said, No, he needs to bein our group because we need him
for the end, we need him. And hewas like, walking three feet
above the classroom floorbecause everybody needed the
(20:50):
And, which was the bridge thecement between the stanzas Okay,
I'm getting goosebumps. Now. Ithappened a long time ago, I
called his mother I said, shesaid, He is the poster child for
inclusion. So they, they reallyresonated with the And. And I've
(21:10):
used this poem with my master'sstudents. And they come up with
all kinds of ways to act out. Soagain, multimodal, you know, act
out the stanzas act out theaction within the poem, I've
done it with teachers, and oneof the groups actually had a
(21:32):
sign language translation oftheir stanza. So they really
brought in a lot of differentways of presenting the same
poem, and even just one stanza,and each group goes, Oh, we
hadn't thought about doing that,what that way. And so it really
is a fun and they really enjoythat activity a lot. And then we
(21:56):
go back and I give them littleword cards and say, okay, find
a, you know, a word because Ihave a big display of this poem,
you know, find, find this wordin the poem, find a word that
rhymes with this word. So we'redoing our word study, along with
just the poetry and the imagery,and the performance. And it
(22:20):
really has been very impactful.
Because we have, you know, theonsets and rimes you can bring
in alliteration with beginningsounds, you know, the repetition
and the patterns and always myfavorite the onomatopoeia. You
know, I love saying the word, welove doing the word and
(22:41):
everybody likes to chug, chug,chug along.
Lindsay Persohn (22:44):
Yeah, it is so much fun. And the kind of
intellectual engagement thatyou're describing, I think it
reminds us of how much fun wordscan be, you know, whenever we
get beyond just sort of reducingthem to on sets and rhymes. But
instead of applying that tosomething that is meaningful,
not just in one context, or it'snot just, you know, so often I
(23:06):
think comprehension in schoolsis reduced to the right answer,
right? And what what is theright answer anyway, you know, I
think about those things fairlyoften, particularly when it
comes to things like acceleratedreader in some of those
programs, where you're askingkids to identify meaning, but it
doesn't really necessarily haveanything to do with them, or the
(23:27):
meaning they make. It's themeaning that, you know, a test
writer has made of that. Butwith poetry, right, you can
introduce new stanzas, and youcan build off of each other and
have that really richconversation around will will it
meant something different to me,or, Oh, I thought about this
word, or this concept a littlebit differently, and just the
kind of intellectual engagementand also social engagement that
(23:47):
comes with those kinds ofconversations. I just, I don't
know if you can beat that, youknow, I don't know if you can
top that with with anythingelse.
Pamela Mason (23:55):
I hope that your listeners will will reconsider
poetry, you know, and not beintimidated by it. I know when I
was in school, I always thoughtthat the teacher had the right
answer that there was a rightanswer in responding to poetry
and, and sometimes it is taughtthat way. But I'm encouraging
your listeners to think about,you know, divergent thinking,
(24:18):
critical thinking, and you know,can we how does this these
concepts as this imagery relateto you and your family? Thinking
about again about Honey, I loveEloise Greenfield does do many
of her poems are about familyand friendships. And so I think
our poems provide a nice entrypoint for most children,
(24:40):
regardless of their ethnicity ortheir background, or their
language and they can alwaystalk about family and
friendships, in their languageand bring in things that rhyme
in their language in their homelanguage, their mother tongue
and then see how it doesn't ordoes kind of translate into to
English and do the conceptstranslate, because our words are
(25:05):
not just, you know what theymean in the dictionary, they're
they're denotation. There's allthese connotations, these
contexts. And, you know, whenyou use these words and the
motions that they bring forward,and again, that's kind of going
to the social emotional learningpart that we've, we've known
(25:25):
that was important for many,many decades. But with
unfortunately, the pandemic,it's really kind of smacked us
in the face, like, Okay, wecan't get very far if we're not
feeling safe, if we're notfeeling protected. And I think
that those are so important inour, in our classrooms, and
(25:48):
providing poetry is a way of, ofseeing and hearing and valuing
our learners in very authenticways.
Lindsay Persohn (25:57):
Well, so often, I think we try to do more in
education by doing more, insteadof doing things that are
interconnected and workingsmarter at building these
constructs, helping studentsunderstand concepts in a way
that you're talking about. It'sso interconnected. And I feel
like this happens to me a lot onthe show, but it seems so
(26:19):
logical, like it was right therein front of us all along. But
instead, we try to, uh, well,let's add this program, right,
let's add this specific programfor social emotional learning,
let's add this program forphonics instruction. I know, as
a classroom teacher, I alwaysfelt like, as those things are
added, nothing's ever takenaway. So you're just doing
writing. So you're just doingmore and more and more, instead
(26:40):
of thinking about how we canfocus on a couple of things, and
do those really well, andidentify the connections across
those different subject areas orconcepts that we're trying to
teach. So you've really got methinking very differently about
how these ideas can fit in waysthat don't feel like doing more,
but instead feel like doingbetter?
Pamela Mason (27:02):
Yes, and I think there's, you know, and again,
debunking the idea that poetryhas to rhyme. So there are two
templates that I've used that,and others have shared with me,
you know, kind of the I ampoems, and so there's a little
bit of a scaffolding of, youknow, I am and what you like,
and so it's a nice way for forstudents to share who they are
(27:26):
as little or as much as theyfeel comfortable. And for
teachers to learn who theirstudents are. And Lindsey,
they're writing,
Lindsay Persohn (27:36):
right? Oh, by the way, they're writing
Pamela Mason (27:38):
They are writing, and they're writing about
themselves. And so we'relearning about them. But if you
want to look at their writing,you know, how are they
representing sounds and symbols?
What do they know about thecode, how is that demonstrated
in their writing and what wordsthey choose to use. And then
there's another template is I amfrom, so it really talks about,
(27:58):
you know, who they are, andwhere they feel they're from,
and that really broadens theclassroom to bring in all of the
students backgrounds, be theyyou know, just recent
immigrants, or second or thirdgeneration, but they still may
have connections through eldersto other places, and where are
(28:19):
those other places? Whatemotions are evoked by thinking
about or returning to thoseother places,
Lindsay Persohn (28:29):
that also gives us opportunities to identify
when maybe students don't feelsolidly anchored to a place or a
people or a culture, because Ithink that's just important to
know, also, you know, if you dohave someone who maybe doesn't
know a whole lot about theirfamily, or is living in a foster
care situation, or somethinglike that, where you know, where
they're from, might tell ussomething very different. And so
(28:52):
that idea of personalizing thewriting, the learning the
thinking, I just think it cantake us so far. But without
feeling like we're adding a lotto our to do list. It's like I
said, it's just, it just allseems to make so much sense to
me.
Pamela Mason (29:06):
And also, it's not, it doesn't feel as
intrusive, you know, for ateacher, right? Tell me about
yourself. No, we're writingpoems and you know it, it
creates a little bit of adistance. It's not a
confrontation about telling meeverything I need to know about
you. But more, here's anopportunity for you to share
(29:26):
what you want us to know aboutyou. Right?
Lindsay Persohn (29:31):
No, I love that. I think that's, it's just
such a smart way to work at somany things at once. So you've
mentioned a couple of starts topoetry that you have and that
really caused me to think Do youhave any resources that you
might want to point listeners toparticularly if we are thinking
about teachers or pre serviceteachers, even experienced
(29:52):
teachers who don't feel likethey have a whole lot of their
own experience with poetry? Doyou have any anything you can
point us to?
Pamela Mason (29:59):
Well, I Georgia heard awakening the heart. It's
an oldie but goodie, I thinkthat she has kind of revised it
a several times. But she talksabout six areas of using poetry
that she has and the music andthe meaning in her poetry
toolbox. And so she also hasideas for poems in your pocket,
(30:23):
and children writing short poemsto each other as a morning
greeting, so I would definitelysuggest awakening the heart, and
then just reading poems, intheir in there everywhere that
personification multiple wordmeanings, their song lyrics,
again, some some songs you can'tbring to school, I understand
(30:45):
that. But, you know, there aresongs and their little rhymes
their jump rope chants that thechildren may use that's poetry.
Lindsay Persohn (30:58):
Right, that
Pamela Mason (30:59):
poetry like, oh, it just seems so kind of like
out there. But there is musicallanguage around us all the time.
So I would, I would say that,again, finding some poem poetry
that that, you know, poetrybooks, anthology, consulting
with your school librarian,hopefully you have one, they are
(31:21):
your friend. And you know,there's also a lot of poetry
around informational text, youknow how things work, and
historical events. PaulFleischmanns, joyful noise is a
book of poems about bugs,insects, but talks about their
(31:41):
habitats, their eating patterns,you get a lot of information
about, you know, when you'rereading these poems about
insects, and their poems for twovoices. So you have to kind of
share and the whole burden isn'ton one reader, you have to
cooperate, and you get thatrhythm and that interchange. And
(32:04):
as you mentioned, the fluencyand you get to practice it, and
you get to laugh and have funwhen you kind of mess up and
read somebody else's line.
Because you know, the world, theworld is not going to stop
stealing, it's not going to fallto the floor, you'll be fine.
Lindsay Persohn (32:18):
Right? Right, there is a YouTube video of two
high school girls who areperforming joyful noise. And
it's something that I've sharedwith my children's literature
course, they act it out, they dothe movements. It's absolutely
incredible to see, you know, andI think that also speaks to how
useful poetry can be across agelevels, grade levels, right,
(32:40):
because we would typically thinkof the book joyful noise as, you
know, maybe something forelementary age students. But as
you mentioned, the the length ofthe text doesn't necessarily
have anything to do with thedepth of the meaning. And so,
you know, I think that that thatis also really important
reminder is that sometimes wemight look at a text and think
of it in one way, but it can beinterpreted in multiple ways and
(33:03):
in really rich kinds of ways asthese girls have done with
joyful noise in what I found tobe an extremely entertaining and
lively video. So I may see if Ican find the link to that and
post it with this conversationbecause it's just so good.
Pamela Mason (33:18):
Yeah. I am not familiar with it. I do that
there are a couple of greatvideos on YouTube of young
people in classrooms, recitingHoney, I love and it just always
kind of brings me to tears andit's it's fun, right? It's fun.
Lindsay Persohn (33:36):
I think these are the kinds of resources that
can potentially help us to kindof break the ice if we're
feeling like we don't reallyknow where to go with poetry or
how to incorporate it there areso many resources out there that
we can go to to see how othereducators how other teachers how
other young people are usingpoetry in their lives in ways
that we may have neverconsidered before.
Pamela Mason (33:58):
Yeah, they're they're listening to spoken
word. They're listening to songsand you know, we could
investigate them or get the kidsbop version. And talk about you
know, the symbolism that's,that's inherent in those songs.
I just read listened to to IndiaArie's, strength, courage and
(34:19):
wisdom. And there's just a lotof alliteration and repetition,
as well as rhyming patternswithin that one song. You know,
kind of going to date myselfgive me Holland Dozier in
Holland and give me some ofthose Motown you know, ain't too
proud to beg. And there are lotsof rhymes and stuff all in
there. And but it's you know,you don't think of it as poetry
(34:40):
but that's what it is. You know,we've got Nikki Grimes, I just
finished reading her bookBetween the Lines and it's a
very clever and way up. There'sa narrative story and within the
narrative is poems by each ofthe different characters,
(35:01):
because the characters are inhigh school, and they're
building up to a poetry slam. Soit's talking about the two
groups of students, they're inteams. And then they're getting
to know each other. So thenarrative is around who they are
and how they're interacting. Andthen there's the poems that
they, as characters havecomposed, talking about
(35:24):
themselves, or the issues thatthey are addressing. And it is,
you know, spectacular, it'sreally great writing. And it's a
good read, it's a good ya readas well. But it just almost
seamlessly encourages the poetryand the foil is that the
protagonist wants to be anewspaper reporter. And his
(35:49):
counselor says, you need to knowabout poetry. Because if you
want to be a good reporter, youneed to connect with the story
and the storytellers. And youneed to be able to come up with
headlines. So you need to knowpoetry. And it's just like,
(36:11):
everybody, I was scratching mythe character scratching head at
that advice, I'm scratching andthen you read the rest of the
novel, and you go, Oh, yeah,
Lindsay Persohn (36:20):
yeah, yeah, I get it. And I, you know, I
haven't read that book yet. Sothat will certainly be added to
my list. But I think it alsohelps us to think differently
about what writing can be, andthe different ways that we
express our ideas, and inherentin writing like that, there's so
much agency for kids. So kind ofback to that idea of discovering
an agency and really openingdoors for kids when I think,
(36:45):
unfortunately, so many schoolopportunities can closed doors
for kids.
Pamela Mason (36:50):
Yes, yes. And I don't think intentionally No,
but they but they, but butthat's how it's received. That's
how it's received. For thelearner and or their families.
Lindsay Persohn (37:01):
Right. Yeah. I mean, we could we could talk
about family involvement, thatmight be another episode.
Pamela Mason (37:06):
Yes, but in terms of other resources, you know,
Jason Reynolds is a great writerand poet. And he's got a couple
of great YouTube videos thattalk about the power of of using
poetry. You know, and of course,there's, you know, Amanda Gorman
and her are wonderful. She doesa lot with rhyme, but also a lot
(37:28):
with metaphor and symbolism.
Yeah, kind of push that up, youknow, to the middle school, high
school level.
Lindsay Persohn (37:38):
And I think there's something about seeing
poets read their own poetry thatis so impactful. And I, I think
particularly of Amanda Gormanand her her reading of that
poetry, it adds a motion that wemight not get otherwise, it adds
meaning that we might not getotherwise. But I think that also
leads to some really richconversation with students about
what poetry is and how it how itcan potentially work in our
(38:02):
lives and how it can convey amessage to someone else. So
yeah, this is all really greatstuff. And I'm with you, Jason
Reynolds has some outstandingvideos out there. And some of
them are really just snippets.
Right. There's something aboutJason Reynolds, I think you feel
like you feel like you get toknow him. Even in a minute and a
half video, you feel like youknow something about him,
(38:22):
there's something so personableabout him that I think can also
help us to think about whatpoetry is and how it could be
used in classrooms.
Pamela Mason (38:31):
Yes, he she, he's vulnerable, and he shares his
vulnerabilities and in that way,maybe encourages and inspires
sports, our learners to bevulnerable in ways that they
might not have thought of.
Lindsay Persohn (38:47):
Right, be it and it gives them permission to,
I think to see, you know, to seean adult doing that they can be
vulnerable to. So Pamela giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Pamela Mason (39:01):
That you are important that you knowing your
learners is important, as wellas knowing what your learners
need to know. And unless yourlearners feel seen, heard and
accepted and safe in yourclassrooms, you can be giving
(39:22):
the best lesson you can you canbe following the script to the
tee and unfortunately, it mightnot get you the results that you
were hoping for.
Lindsay Persohn (39:33):
That's so important. Those connections are
everything. I think I felt thatin every grade level I've taught
every student I've worked withthe connection makes such a
difference.
Pamela Mason (39:45):
And I've I've really had to bring that lesson
to my work with master'sstudents. You know, and it
always reminds me when we dothis poetry unit, you know that
then watching them giggle andhave fun and I'm going Yeah,
Okay, we can be scholarly and wecan be rigorous and we're using,
you know, research basedinstruction. But you can't do it
(40:08):
without the joy.
Lindsay Persohn (40:09):
Right. Right.
What an important message. Well,Pamela, I thank you so much for
your time today. I've reallyenjoyed our conversation. And I
thank you for your tremendouscontributions to the world of
education.
Pamela Mason (40:22):
Oh, thank you, Lindsay. It's my pleasure, and
it's a blessing to be able to dothis work.
Lindsay Persohn (40:27):
Dr. Pamela A.
Mason is known for her workstudying the role of culturally
sustaining pedagogy andpromoting literacy achievement,
the interaction of textcomplexity and background
knowledge, qualitative andquantitative literacy
assessment, and the efficacy ofthe roles of reading specialists
and literacy coaches. Dr. Masoncollaborates with colleagues
(40:47):
nationally and globally onpreparing reading specialist
teachers and literacy coaches,developing the capacity of
school leaders as literacyadvocates, and evaluating school
wide literacy programs. Dr.
Mason has extensive experienceas a reading language arts
curriculum coordinator, and asan elementary school principal
(41:08):
serving in both urban andsuburban districts. She's active
in the International LiteracyAssociation, the literacy
Research Association and theNational Council of Teachers of
English, serving on the standingcommittee against censorship.
Dr. Pamela a Mason is a seniorlecturer on education, a co
chair of the literacy andlanguages concentration, and
(41:30):
director of the gene shellreading lab at the Harvard
Graduate School of Education.
For the good of all studentsclassroom caffeine aims to
energize education research andpractice. If this show provides
you with things to think about,help us spread the word. Talk to
your colleagues and educatorfriends about what you hear. You
can support the show bysubscribing liking and reviewing
(41:51):
this podcast through yourpodcast provider. Connect with
us on social media throughInstagram, Facebook and Twitter,
on our website at classroomcaffeine.com You can learn more
about each guest findtranscripts of our episodes,
explore topics using our dropdown menu of tags, request an
episode topic or potential guestsupport our research through a
(42:15):
listener survey or learn moreabout the research we're doing
on our publications page. Wewould love to hear from you. As
always, I raised my mug to youteachers. Thanks for joining me
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!