April 8, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Raúl Alberto Mora talks to us about education theory as a driver for innovative teaching, mentoring and supporting one another, and the journey of a career in Education. Raúl is known worldwide for his work in the areas of alternative literacy paradigms in second language education and research, the study of second language literacies in physical and virtual spaces, and the use of sociocritical frameworks in language education. In particular, he studies the applications of alternative literacy paradigms to analyze second-language literacy practices in urban and virtual spaces He works to understand the use of languages a social and semiotic resource. His work has been published in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, The ALAN Review, Bilingualism and Bilingual Education, International Journal of Cultural Studies, Social Semiotics, Key Concepts in Intercultural Dialogue, Pedagogies: An International Journal, and other journals. He co-edited The Handbook of Critical Literacies, Translanguaging and Multimodality as Flow, Agency, and a New Sense of Advocacy in and From the Global South, and most recently, Reimagining Literacy in the Age of AI: Theory and Practice. Dr. Raúl Alberto Mora Velez is a researcher at the Educations, Languages, and Learning Environments research group and chairs the award-winning Literacies in Second Languages Project (LSLP) research lab. Raúl is a Research Professor at Universidad Pontificia Bolivariana in Colombia. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode.
Links mentioned in this episode:
Literacies in Second Languages Project Micro-Papers
American Educational Research Association
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Education research has a problem the work of
brilliant education researchersoften doesn't reach the practice
of brilliant teachers.
Classroom Caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or an
expert educator about what theyhave learned from years of
(00:32):
research and experiences.
In this episode, dr RaulAlberto Mora talks to us about
education theory as a driver forinnovative teaching, mentoring
and supporting one another andthe journey of a career in
education.
Raul is known worldwide for hiswork in the areas of alternative
(00:53):
literacy paradigms in secondlanguage education and research,
the study of second languageliteracies in physical and
virtual spaces and the use ofsociocritical frameworks in
language education.
In particular, he studies theapplications of alternative
literacy paradigms to analyzesecond language literacy
practices in urban and virtualspaces.
(01:15):
He works to understand the useof languages as social and
semiotic resource.
His work has been published inthe Journal of Adolescent and
Adult Literacy, the Allen Review, bilingualism and Bilingual
Education, international Journalof Cultural Studies, social
Semiotics, key Concepts andIntercultural Dialogue,
(01:36):
pedagogies, an internationaljournal, and other journals.
He co-edited the Handbook ofCritical Literacies,
translanguaging andMultimodality as Flow Agency and
a New Sense of Advocacy in andfrom the Global South and, most
recently, reimagining Literacyin the Age of AI Theory and
Practice.
(01:57):
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is aresearcher in the Pedagogies and
Didactics of Knowledge ResearchGroup and chairs the
award-winning Literacies inSecond Languages Project
Research Lab.
Raul is a research professor atUniversidad Pontificia
Bolivariana in Colombia.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
(02:19):
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me, your host,
lindsay Persaud, for ClassroomCaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice.
Raul, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Thank you so much, Lindsay.
Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So, from your own experiences in education, will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Hmm, I mean that's actually.
I mean it's a beautifulquestion.
Because I mean sometimes youdon't think about that and I
want to.
As I read the question Istarted thinking how far back do
I want to go?
And I said, let me just go backway back and hop in the
DeLorean or the TARDIS orwhichever time device you want
to use for this, and I'm goingto go back all the way to 1999.
(03:06):
And I like to go back to 1999because that's when I wrote my
first publication.
And I like to go back to thatfirst publication for I mean for
a number of reasons.
One of them is because it tookme a while to appreciate it and
I even remember writing a blogin my Medium blog post about the
(03:28):
process of how, at some point Ireally really didn't like the
publication and then I realizedthat that publication is
actually was necessary foreverything else to happen.
That paper is something aboutproject work and how I use
project work to get my studentsintroduced to writing.
It was the very first time Idid something that would look
(03:48):
like classroom research.
I mean, I really had no ideathat that was called classroom
research.
I had no idea how to frame it.
I was going out by a number ofintuitions when I wrote that
paper.
I mean, I made a couple ofpresentations in national
conferences and then I turned itinto an article.
I made a couple ofpresentations in national
conferences and then I turned itinto an article.
But I like to go back to thatmoment because, as a very young
(04:09):
teacher at the time, I feel thatthat set a lot of things in
motion that a few years laterbegan to crystallize when I was
in grad school and I startedlooking back into this work and
saying, oh, this is whatresearch looks like and this is
what teachers can do.
And that frames how I do all ofmy mentoring in helping
(04:30):
teachers materialize ideas intheir classrooms and turn it
into research.
So, I think that's for me that'sthe first one, because, again,
without that first publication,nothing else would have happened
.
I don't think the secondpublication would have happened.
Fulbright wouldn't havehappened, all the pubs I got
after that and the books I'mwriting right now nothing of
(04:51):
that would have happened.
So I always like to go back inthat because sometimes, as we
get older and we move into ourcareer, we forget about the
beginning and we can be veryunkind to our beginning or say
that it's meaningless or it'sinsignificant, it's very small,
and that always reminds me thatno, we have to start somewhere
(05:14):
and evolution is just the resultof making those first steps and
making those first mistakes andthen move on and start thinking
of bigger and better things.
So that's why I thought I wouldsay this first moment, because
that was a moment when I said Ican write, I have a voice, I
have something worth presentingand people are listening to this
(05:35):
and I can start building fromthis.
And I go back to that alsobecause one of the things I like
to tell grad students in myclasses is a lot of research
that we do in education beginsin classrooms.
Like, not all the research thatwe do in education begins in
multimillion-dollar grants.
(05:56):
A lot of it begins withteachers who are very motivated
and they start doing wild stuffwith their students who are very
motivated.
And they start doing wild stuffwith their students and they
learn how to turn it into apaper that they present to that
local conference, that theypresent to that major conference
.
That becomes an article, thatbecomes a book, that becomes a
video, that becomes a TikTok,that becomes a podcast, that
(06:18):
becomes something else, and howwe need to learn to value those
experiences and not simply thinkthat the only thing worth
taking to ARA or NCTE or LRA isthe big R research stuff.
A lot of the grassroots stuffbelongs in those spaces.
A lot of the grassroots stuffneeds to be heard in those
(06:39):
spaces, especially in times likethese where we have big
questions about the nature ofresearch.
And I would say the secondmoment I think the second moment
is ongoing, but it has to dowith creating my research lab.
I started conceptualizing in2011, and I chartered the lab
(06:59):
the Literacies andPsychoanalysis Project in 2012.
And that's one of the things Iusually inevitably talk about
when I when I talk about my work, because it's it's in a
strictly linked.
I cannot talk about my workwithout talking about my lab and
talk about the community thatwe have built other slp.
One of the reasons I like tothink about that is because that
(07:20):
answers a question thatsometimes doc students have as
they're finishing theirdoctorates.
It's what can I do with mydissertation?
And then there's a thinkingyeah, you can write the articles
, you can write a book out ofyour dissertation.
But sometimes, if you thinkcarefully enough, you can go
back to your conceptualframeworks, to the methodology
sections, and you can build acommunity to do research with.
(07:44):
And that's what I did.
I mean, I had a universitymandate that said we want to
have student research lab thatlooks into English ed.
And I said, well, I can do that.
I'm just going to gear it intoliteracy, because that's what I
spent the last eight years of mylife, trying to make sense of
it, and that's what I want tobuild my postdoctoral career
(08:05):
around the whole thing aboutliteracy.
And I like to think of that as amoment that has been ongoing
for the past 13 years, becauseevery time I meet with my
students I always come up withnew ideas.
And I mean just before thisconversation, I had a meeting
with one of my students.
She just joined the lab a fewweeks ago and she came with an
(08:27):
idea for her senior thesis.
We looked at the idea and saidI asked her do you really want
to do this?
She's like, no, I don't.
I said, well, of course not.
Let's sort of say what do youreally want to do?
As we were talking I told herlisten, for me, the most
important thing is I want you tohave fun, I want you to be
yourself and how, through thelab, all my students and myself
(08:50):
included we have found ourselvesin the process.
I cannot think of any projectI've done with the students that
I don't feel like we're havingfun and my students see
themselves reflected in theprojects, but in the sense of
also building a community, thatwe feel that we're a community,
or a legion as we like to say inour lab, and I think sometimes
(09:12):
that's important.
Sometimes we forget about theimportance of building community
.
As we do research, we focus toomuch about the outcomes and not
enough about the process andhow we bring people along in the
journey, because at the end ofthe day, for me, what's
important for me is to see howmany people have gone through
this and what they've learnedand the kind of people they have
(09:34):
become as part of this journeywhere we're all growing together
.
So I'd like to start with thosetwo moments, because the second
one is still going.
We're still doing research,we're still doing the work on
gaming.
We're still doing the work ongaming, we're still going to
work in the city, we're stilldoing the work in the classrooms
, and I still see myself doingthat for however long life and
providence give me a chance todo it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I think everything I hear in what you're sharing,
raul, is about the journey, eventhat first publication that, I
think often are firsts.
We look back on them and think,oh boy, you know what a mess
that was.
Or I wish I'd done something orsaid something differently, but
(10:14):
I couldn't agree more.
I think that it is the journeythat takes us where we are now
and without following that path,we might end up in very
different places Without, youknow, acknowledging our growth
and our connections with others.
It's hard to make progress inthe good work that we want to do
.
You know, as you talk aboutfinding yourself, having a good
time being yourself, the work ofeducation, in my view, should
be joyful.
It should be a space ofcommunity and of reciprocity and
(10:38):
, you know, a space of sharedlearning, and I hear that in
everything that you share.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, and I think, and again, the power of finding
yourself.
It's when I think about thejourney.
It's also part of it has beenmy own journey in how, over this
past I would say that that's 15years since I finished my PhD
I'm kept.
Oh my God, I can't believe it'sbeen that long.
No, how I had to deal with.
Okay, I now I'm going to have'mgoing to have to start mentoring
(11:06):
my own students.
So how am I going to do that?
Like, what am I going to pickup from the lessons I have from
the great mentors I had in gradschool?
And how am I going to do thismy own thing?
And how do I find that fineline where I can guide my
students into doing what theywant to do, but not turn it into
what I want to do?
(11:27):
And I always like to tell mystudents I don't have to do, I
don't do dissertations or thesisvicariously.
I already wrote mine, so I wantyou to write yours, just want
to guide you.
And it's also the same timecoming to terms with as I get
older, coming to terms with I amone of the elders now and it's
been, that's been part of myjourney how, oh, I'm becoming
(11:50):
one of the ancestors.
I think I remember hearingErnest Morrell say that once.
It's how we go from watchingthe ancestors to becoming the
ancestors and how we take thatrole and how we embrace that.
How we take that role and howwe embrace that Now I'm
mentoring all these youngerscholars having my students,
having their students which issomething that's happened over
(12:12):
the past few years, when I havemy master's students, have
master's students and soon mydoc students are going to have
their own doc students how myrole continues to be in helping
these young generations ofscholars as I continue doing my
work and as I continue thisjourney in this, you know this
next stage of my career.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I think that cycle of mentorship plays out at every
level of education.
It's not just researcher toresearcher, or a college student
to college student, butcertainly also classroom teacher
to young person.
You know, and I think that inthat cycle of life, so to speak
because I think it's obviouslynot just education but life too,
as I'm getting older and I'vebecome the oldest generation in
(12:51):
my family, which seems very,very odd place to be what you're
saying really resonates with methis idea that we are always
becoming and we have thoseinfluences from others, people
we think with, people we enjoyworking with and talking with,
who help to shape us into who wecontinue to become, while we
(13:12):
are also hopefully supportingthem to become who they want to
be as well it's one of thosethings that sometimes we need to
talk more about, because thisnotion of mentoring, I mean we
use that word often but wesometimes mean it as, oh, it's
about the younglings.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
but I mean, I remember having a lot of these
conversations over the past fewyears with with my advisor, with
arlette willis, uh, and how Italked with arlette all the time
about all these new roles thatI have to undertake and how
important it is to have someonewho's been there, who's done
that, who can help you navigatethese spaces, as you navigate
(13:52):
new questions, as I, for example, as I navigate a world where I
have dog students in their 40sand their 50s, and how that has
changed entirely any perceptionI had about mentoring.
Like, no, it's one thing is tomentor dog students in their
early 30s, which is the timewhen I was a dog student and
(14:14):
other things when I have to facemy students in their 40s.
I have students in their early50s, mid 50s, facing all these
other challenges that you knowaging brings to the table, and
how I navigate that in order tosupport them in that part of the
journey.
And I always like to joke, Imean, those were things that
grads could be unprepared before, but I still have to find ways
(14:37):
to work around it.
I mean the community sense.
I think it's really important.
I mean in the sense ofmentorship of our students and
us scholars in training, how weget the inner circles involved
in the process, and I think forme that's one thing I value a
lot, that I always like toensure that my students have
(15:00):
spaces where they can stillnurture their family circles,
whatever the family looks like.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, I think everything you're saying about
education and literacy andmentoring in this highly
humanized way it rubs up againstsome.
I think the systems that are inplace in educational structures
that you know tell us to put inmore hours, do more work more.
Forget that you're a humanright, forget that you have
(15:28):
interests and needs and just sitdown at your computer and get
it all done.
I could really appreciate thaton so many levels that we can't
lose sight of our circles ofinfluence and our own
communities, whether they arefamilial communities or our
chosen communities.
It's important that we remainin those kind of human circles
rather than you know, feelinglike a cog in a wheel.
(15:50):
Yeah, so what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Well, I love that question.
I think the first thing I wantlisteners to know about my work
is to know what we do and I sayme, I mean when I talk about the
work I do along with myresearch team, my research lab,
my legion, I would sayconceptually at work.
It's basically at theintersection between second
(16:15):
language studies and TESOL andliteracy studies, and when we
talk about this idea of literacyin second languages project as
the name for our lab, literacyin second languages is that.
It's that intersection where westart thinking how we explore
the presence of multiplelanguages in different spaces
that sometimes we don't payattention to.
(16:36):
Like the cities, cities areincredibly prelingual spaces.
It's just that we sometimesdon't pay attention to that
because oh, it's just abillboard, oh, it's just a
graffiti, it's just a sticker ona pole, on a light pole.
It's just, it's the name of astore, it's the name of a
(16:57):
barbershop.
But once you start looking atthat more carefully and I'd say
without being so judgmental, youcan learn so much about the way
languages shape and reshapecities and how we have access to
so many languages in oureveryday life that we're not
(17:17):
even listening to, we're notpaying attention to.
So that's been one of the linesof work I've developed with my
team over the past decade andwe're still working on it
looking at how languages createdifferent ways to look at a city
if we want to conceive the city, and thinking about what we can
learn about that when we'reteaching languages and what we
can learn about that when we areteaching languages.
Then there's all the work thatwe've done with video games and
(17:42):
how gamers appropriate languageswithin that gaming culture,
within the play, and how theyuse these languages and
strategies to thrive in thegames and to belong to the games
and to belong to thesecommunities.
And then there is the work thatwe do with teachers in the sense
of give them the theory.
That's what I advocate for.
(18:03):
That's the thing I've done withmy master's students and with
my doctoral students.
Look, here's the theory, here'smultimodality, here's critical
literacy, here's multiliteracies, here's digital literacies,
here.
Do something, think, mean,think about this like you can
use whatever metaphor you wantPlay-Doh, lego box, whatever you
want, whatever you want andbuild something with it.
(18:25):
You're the one in yourclassroom.
I'm not here to tell you whatyou can do.
I'm here to tell you this iswhat a theory could do if you
play with it and we just letteachers play with theory, which
is something that we're notdoing enough, this idea that we
still have places where we thinkthat teachers need to be told
(18:46):
exactly what to do and that weneed to come with this
prepackaged thing and we have togive them this prepackaged
thing because that's what theywant and the reality that's no,
that's not what they want.
They don't want the prepackagedsolution.
They take it because that's theonly choice you give them.
I mean, if all you're going tooffer me for dinner is ramen
(19:07):
noodles and my choice is ramennoodles or go hungry, I'm going
to have the noodles.
But if you give me the optionof going to the kitchen, opening
the cupboard, see what's in thecupboard and cook something,
I'm going to go and cooksomething.
So that's what I'm saying.
What options are we givingteachers?
Are we giving the teacher theoptions of going to the cupboard
and finding and picking theingredients in the cupboard and
(19:30):
then you give them the skilletand then you let them cook?
Or are you just telling themall you can eat is this
prepackaged pan and that's whatyou can eat?
When you give teachers thepossibility to cook, to play
with theory.
I've seen my teachers doincredible things in the
classrooms, in public classrooms, in rural classrooms.
(19:51):
So I'm not talking about herethe elite bilingual private
schools that we have sometimesin Colombia that happens there
too, make no mistake about itbut I'm talking about my
teachers in public schools andinner city neighborhoods, my
teachers in rural schools takingtheory and doing the alchemy
that we need to do with theoryand getting their students
(20:15):
engaged in writing, gettingstudents engaged in learning a
language, getting studentsengaged in literacy.
That's part of the work I dowith teachers is get them into
theory and then helping my youngteachers understand, first of
all, the theory is accessible,that research is accessible,
that they can theorize, thatthey can talk methodology, even
(20:38):
if they're undergrads, myundergrads know that once we
enter this place, we are goingto talk.
We're going to get seriousabout talking about methodology.
We're going to get seriousabout talking about theory.
We're going to conceptualize,we're going to write conceptual
papers.
We're going to write and we'regoing to talk about this in the
grandest stages, and that's oneof the things that what we do.
I mean I tell my students not tobe afraid.
(20:59):
No, I tell them, no, we belongat LRA, we belong at ARA, we
belong at internationalconferences and that's where
we're going to go how Well,we'll figure it out later.
But we belong in those podcasts, we belong in those webinars
because we're doing great stuffand because my students are they
.
I mean, I believe in theirabsolute excellence, I believe
(21:22):
in their awesomeness, I believein their brilliance.
And if I'm not gonna believe inmy students brilliance,
awesomeness and fire then why doI even have a research lab in
the first place?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
my wheels are are going for sure what you're
saying, raul.
It just reminds me of often theway that educators are treated
in the spaces where they work.
You know so often teachers aretreated as though they don't
know as much as the printedcurriculum, right?
They're treated as though theydon't know as much as
policymakers no-transcript andthe experiences they have and
(22:24):
leaning on them to do the goodwork with the theories.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Absolutely.
I mean, I'm one.
I mean because one of thethings I really hate is when
people talk about this wholenotion that we have to recruit
the best of the brightest, and Ihear this all the time.
Yeah, we have to find ways toget the best of the brightest.
And then I go to my lab and Istart meeting with my undergrads
and I look at them and I lookat what they do and I'm like
(22:51):
what are you talking about?
I'm already working with thebest and the brightest.
I mean, my students are thebest and the brightest and I
believe it firmly and they proveit to me every single day With
everything we have at ourresearch meeting.
There is so much magic in thosemeetings and I get so many
ideas and they help me think.
I mean the fact that I'mwriting one book.
(23:14):
The book about video games isbasically all my co-authors are
undergrads and early careerteachers.
I have a couple of veteranteachers, but students who are
giving me everything they gotand they're throwing their magic
in every single chapter ofwriting.
But it begins from the notionthat they tell me we got this
golden opportunity.
Let's not put it to waste.
(23:36):
And they don't put it to waste.
So it's first of all, it's howwe create.
When we are in those positionswhere we can open these spaces,
who are we bringing to the table?
Who are we bringing along forthe ride?
It's, I'm thinking about us andHigher Ed.
We get invited to all theseparties and the question I would
(23:58):
like to ask everybody is areyou bringing a plus one, a plus
two, a plus three, a plus ten,or are you just flying solo?
Because I mean, that's the bigquestion for me, that's, that's
the big challenge.
Are you flying solo or are you,as someone told me, lift him as
you climb?
You RSVP to the party.
Who's your plus one?
(24:18):
And I mean by a party, I mean abook chapter.
You're writing.
Are you bringing a plus one oryou just decided that this is a
solo party?
Are you inviting your studentsto write with you?
Are you inviting juniorcolleagues to write with you?
Now, if they decline, that's awhole different story.
But if your students arewilling and they want to write
and they're good, and you're notbringing them along, you're not
(24:41):
telling them, you're notbringing them along for the
party, I'm going to blame you.
You're the one who got theinvitation my students at this
particular moment in theircareers.
No one is going to invite mystudents to give a talk or to
join a podcast or to present apaper or put together a
symposium.
I get those invitations.
So if I get those invitationsand I don't bring them along,
(25:03):
then the responsibility is mine.
Our responsibility as mentorsis also creating those spaces
for the younger generations, forpeople to know they exist,
giving opportunities thatthey're not going to have unless
someone who's in a position toget those opportunities invites
them.
So get your team, get yourstudents to be part of these
spaces.
That's how we build community,that's how we build a legacy.
(25:27):
Now, in many ways, that's howwe build the future of this, how
we get the teachers, how we getthe undergrads, how we get the
grad students involved so thatthey know what it's like, they
get a taste of those spaces andthen, when it's their chance,
they will surely pay it forward.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Considering how we act and react in each and every
moment and how that does in factsupport paths to a better
future for all of us.
This idea of bringing a plusone, I've never really thought
about it that way.
It is so critical whether weare inviting teachers to
research conversations, askingthem to share their great ideas,
(26:05):
inviting them to come, you know, join projects and share their
own expertise, help us sense,make from their own perspectives
.
There's such energy in what yousay, Raul, and I think that's
an area where, in some spaces, Ithink we are thoroughly lacking
.
So if we can re-energize somespaces where teachers do work
(26:27):
and students work, we could allbe in a much better place.
I think this sense of community, the sense of supporting each
other as we continue to grow inour thinking and even influence
to bring others along with us,yeah, and it's also about
breaking this culture ofgatekeeping that we have.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I mean, it's a culture that I have with
colleagues.
I mean how much gatekeeping itis when people put together
volumes.
I recently just postedsomething on Blue Sky about that
, saying that, look, if you'reediting a volume and you get so
many good submissions for once,why don't you try, instead of
sending the letter, saying, oh,we got so many good submissions,
(27:08):
but yours doesn't fit.
Why don't you look at the onesthat don't fit and see what's
going on there?
And people will be like peoplesay, yeah, but you still have.
Now you have to go to the workof finding more reviewers or
finding.
Look, I never said it was goingto be easy.
I said it's possible.
If you get 30 abstracts for avolume but you can only have 10,
is there a possibility fromthose 30, you can get another 10
(27:32):
, that you can make anotherissue or another volume and
another 10, that's going to beanother volume.
And, yes, you're going to haveto spend your time looking for
another publisher for that.
You're going to have to startlooking for another journal for
that.
But at the end of the day, whenyou can say that you opened
room for 30 people as opposed toclosing the door on 20, what's
going to sound better?
(27:53):
What's going to make you lookbetter, buddy?
I mean even if you're going tothink in this very utilitarian
sense.
Well, I put together threeissues and I got 30 people who
published papers as opposed to.
I just talked to the 10 peopleI know, because it's like the 10
people I know, my ocean's 11thingy, and then everybody else.
Yeah, good luck, beautifulabstract, but good luck, that's
(28:17):
gatekeeping.
There is too much of that, andas we break, breaking the
cultural gatekeeping meansmaking sure that practitioners
get places, that speakers,people who are writing in their
second language, get welcome tothose spaces, without having to
prove to you that I got my paperproofread by a native speaker
(28:38):
before I submitted it here.
Like I always like to be kindof a little snarky and saying,
yeah, if I'm a native speakerwho knows as much about the
subject as I do, I'm happy tohave that person proofread it
for me.
Until that happens, I'm notgoing to lose my sleep.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You know, this happens on a different level in
classrooms every day.
In fact, teachers areencouraged to be gatekeepers in
so many ways.
You've either met this precisestandard and you must meet the
bar as it was set by someoneelse, rather than looking for
the brilliance and thenidentifying how those ideas kind
of coalesce, or how we makesense of them together, even
(29:13):
when they weren't what weexpected ideas kind of coalesce,
or how we make sense of themtogether, even when they weren't
what we expected.
Yeah, you've just given me somuch to think about.
Is there anything else you wantto share with listeners about
your work?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I think one of the things I would say I'm very
proud of is not just that, it'show we also have created a
culture of understanding theacademic literacy culture.
I always love to talk about ourlittle publication, the LSLP
Micropapers, as something thathas become a hallmark of our
work, in the sense that as weconceptualize our research, we
(29:46):
write those little papers and mystudents and I can make so much
sense of these concepts andthen we have these things
already online that people canfind and people can cite and
people can use as a reference.
But it's become a culture whereeverybody knows they have to
write one and the sense ofaccomplishment when that micro
(30:08):
paper is published on thewebsite and we advertise that
it's published, they feel likeit's empowering.
I can talk about these heavyresearch concepts, these things
about literacy, and say it in away that is articulate.
But it's also mine, because Ithink the thing about theory is
not simply regurgitating theauthors or regurgitating the
(30:29):
references, but how I make senseof this for the stuff I'm doing
.
If I'm talking about AI, yeah,but what does AI mean to you and
how are you thinking about thatwork?
You're thinking about criticalliteracy yes, great, and there
is a host of people you have toread in order to understand the
field, but what does it mean toyou and what does it mean for
(30:52):
the work you're doing with yourstudents?
Same goes with the otherconcepts.
Or we talk about video games,we talk about urban ethnography
or whatever concept that we'redeveloping at the moment, and I
I love that part of the workbecause everybody's already
thinking and writing and, as weand we're collectively building
a conceptual base that helps usall the time, and I think that
(31:16):
that that is also a really,really pretty thing about the
things we do.
It's how we are also thinkingof knowledge construction and
conceptualizing from a verygrassroots perspective that, yes
, we have to read the who's, whoand everybody who's done
something and we have to do thesearches, but at the same time,
we're also adding ourcontribution, through the things
(31:37):
we write, to the collectiveknowledge.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Is that site something that we can link in
your show notes and make thatavailable to listeners?
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Okay, wonderful, I mean it's all available.
It's basically it's all on ourwebsite, but there is one
particular link that takes youdirectly to the LSDP micro
papers.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Great.
We will link that in the shownotes and on your guest page.
So one closing question for you, Raul.
Given the challenges of today'seducational climate, what
message do you want teachers tohear?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Oh boy, now that's a question that I think probably
would have had a very differentanswer two months ago, would
have a very different answer amonth ago and it would have had
a different answer three weeksago.
So let's try to give the bestanswer we can today, but I think
first I would like to take amoment to get all those teachers
out there, like everywhere,everywhere in the world, because
(32:28):
there are some struggles toteachers that are not unique to
one country.
Many of these challenges arecollective.
I see those struggles inteachers in Colombia and I heard
those struggles in teachers inNorway, and I've seen those
struggles in teaching in the US,and I heard the struggles in
teaching in Brazil and in Polandand in Mexico, and I hear from
(32:51):
teachers in different parts ofLatin America.
But the first thing I wouldlike to say is, first of all,
please understand that many ofus who are in higher ed we
appreciate you, that your workis appreciated, that your work
is respected, that your work iswelcome, that maybe in higher ed
(33:12):
we need to interrogateourselves about how often we
don't say that, how often wedon't tell teachers that their
job is worthwhile, that they'redoing fantastic jobs, that they
are sometimes beating everyimaginable odd, every imaginable
challenge and challenges thatsometimes we in higher ed, at
(33:33):
this particular point in ourcareers, might not even be able
to face ourselves or meetourselves.
That your work and I like and Ilike to make sure that teachers
hear this no, you, you areappreciated and we appreciate
you and you, what you do withyour students, we see it and we
should have told you this moreoften and we should have
advocated for you more often.
(33:56):
I've never liked to come to talkto teachers from deficit
perspectives I mean, they haveheard enough of that.
I like to always come to theidea that what you're doing is
amazing.
You're doing great stuff.
Maybe you don't use theterminology that we use.
Maybe you don't call itmultimodality.
Maybe you don't call itcritical literacy.
Maybe you don't call itmultiliteracies.
Maybe you don't call itmultimodality.
Maybe you don't call itcritical literacy.
(34:16):
Maybe you don't call itmultiliteracies.
Maybe you don't call it thisthat I call it in my work, but
when I go and see it, what youdo in your classrooms, I see
what you're doing and then wecan find middle ground where I
can tell you this is what it'scalled and you can show me what
you're doing and then we canfind together a way to build it.
These are difficult times, Ithink.
(34:36):
Not acknowledging that, thatthere are difficult times, it
would be foolish.
But at the same time, I thinkthat there are pockets of hope
and happiness and joy that westill have to exploit and we
still have to discover.
Stay true to yourselves.
I think that would be the onething I tell you.
I mean, teachers are doing.
Teachers are amazing.
One thing I had the chance tolearn working with my teachers
(34:57):
at the lab is the amazing workthey do and how much of a
difference they make when theyare in their classrooms.
And then I also look at whatteacher educators are doing
every day in different ways andhow much that matters when it
comes to getting teachers outthere in the field.
So I would say that would bewhat I would say is continue
(35:19):
doing the work.
I would say from the end ofteacher ed, we have to really
coalesce a little more, becausemore challenges are coming and
we're not coalescing enough,we're not strategizing enough.
We have to sustain ourcommunities and sustain them
with I mean with a lot of loveand hope.
But love and hope, that is notidealistic, but it's actually
(35:40):
grounded in the fight.
But that would be my messageand just keep being yourselves,
keep doing the great work you'redoing.
I mean, the thing aboutteaching is that sometimes
people don't notice what you didright away they feel, but they
notice it eventually.
But I think those of us in thesepositions of research and
advocacy, we need to do a muchbetter job in, you know, telling
(36:04):
teachers and telling ourstudents that they're doing
great stuff and that they, theirwork, matters.
I think we need to do I meanagain, higher ed and research.
We need to do better.
We need to do, I mean again,higher ed and research.
We need to do better.
We need to do better because Ithink we're not.
I mean, we have great effortsbut they're still isolated.
But we need to do something more.
Let's say, more widespread,more sustained, more sustainable
(36:26):
.
Of course, with this, I need tomake sure I keep telling that
to my teachers and keep tellingthat to my students, not always
remind them how amazing they are, remind them of the brilliance
and the fire that they have, andI think as long as we keep
doing that and we keep workingtogether to sustain that fire, I
mean that's part of this, partof fighting and winning the good
(36:49):
fight, is that?
So I hope that really resonateswith teachers and other
colleagues and that inspirespeople to keep the spark alive.
I mean, at least for me, that'swhat I'm going to do in the
next hour or so when I'm goingto start meeting my students to
work on our chapters and work onour projects.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I know your message certainly resonates with me and
I absolutely agree.
The challenges are collective,but I think whenever we put some
collective energy intosupporting the good fight, as
you called it, we can do somegreat things.
We can still identify and workwithin those pockets of hope and
joy and love and share thatwith with everyone in our
(37:26):
educational community, theyoungest of students to our
oldest of students.
So so, Raul, I thank you somuch for spending this time with
me.
So, Raul, I thank you so muchfor spending this time with me.
I think you've got such acritical message always, but
certainly now, In this moment, Ithink we need more than ever to
honor each other and supporteach other and lift up each
(37:49):
other's voices so that we cancontinue doing the good work for
young people.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
My pleasure, pleasure is all mine.
I appreciate the space and theconversation and, yeah, let's
keep it going, let's keep itrolling, let's keep doing the
good work.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Great Thank you.
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is knownworldwide for his work in the
areas of second languages,critical discourse analysis and
sociocultural theory.
In particular, he studies theapplications of alternative
literacy paradigms to analyzesecond language literacy
practices in urban and virtualspaces.
(38:26):
He works to understand the useof languages as social and
semiotic resource.
His work has been published inthe Journal of Adolescent and
Adult Literacy, bilingualism andBilingual Education, social
Semiotics, key Concepts inIntercultural Dialogue.
Pedagogies, an internationalEducation, language and Ideology
Journal of Education forMultilingualism, howe Journal
(38:59):
from Columbia and Crossroads, ajournal of English studies from
Poland.
He also co-edited the Handbookof Critical Literacies in
Translanguaging andMultimodality as Flow Agency and
a New Sense of Advocacy in andfrom the global South, published
in 2024, as well as forthcomingbooks Understanding Second
Language Users as Gamers,language as Victory, reimagining
(39:23):
Literacy in the Age of AITheory and Practice English
Language Teacher Education inLatin America.
And Reimagining CriticalMultimodality in Education from
Soil soil to seedlings.
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is aresearcher in the Pedagogies and
Didactics of Knowledge ResearchGroup and chairs the
award-winning Literacies inSecond Languages Project
(39:46):
Research Lab.
He has served as visitingprofessor, visiting scholar and
guest lecturer at universitiesin Colombia, poland, mexico,
chechnya, brazil, united States,spain and Norway.
Raul is a graduate of theUniversity of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign and a researchprofessor at Universidad
(40:09):
Pontificia Bolivariana inColombia.
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
hear.
You can support the show bysubscribing, liking and
(40:32):
reviewing this podcast throughyour podcast provider.
Subscribing, liking andreviewing this podcast through
your podcast provider.
Visit classroomcaffeinecom,where you can subscribe to
receive our short monthlynewsletter, the Espresso Shot.
On our website, you can alsolearn more about each guest,
find transcripts for ourepisodes, explore topics using
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(40:57):
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We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
abaya Valuru, stephanie Bransonand Shaba Oshfath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
(41:19):
Thanks for joining me.
Education research has a problem the work of
brilliant education researchersoften doesn't reach the practice
of brilliant teachers.
Classroom Caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or an
expert educator about what theyhave learned from years of
(00:32):
research and experiences.
In this episode, dr RaulAlberto Mora talks to us about
education theory as a driver forinnovative teaching, mentoring
and supporting one another andthe journey of a career in
education.
Raul is known worldwide for hiswork in the areas of alternative
(00:53):
literacy paradigms in secondlanguage education and research,
the study of second languageliteracies in physical and
virtual spaces and the use ofsociocritical frameworks in
language education.
In particular, he studies theapplications of alternative
literacy paradigms to analyzesecond language literacy
practices in urban and virtualspaces.
(01:15):
He works to understand the useof languages as social and
semiotic resource.
His work has been published inthe Journal of Adolescent and
Adult Literacy, the Allen Review, bilingualism and Bilingual
Education, international Journalof Cultural Studies, social
Semiotics, key Concepts andIntercultural Dialogue,
(01:36):
pedagogies, an internationaljournal, and other journals.
He co-edited the Handbook ofCritical Literacies,
translanguaging andMultimodality as Flow Agency and
a New Sense of Advocacy in andfrom the Global South and, most
recently, reimagining Literacyin the Age of AI Theory and
Practice.
(01:57):
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is aresearcher in the Pedagogies and
Didactics of Knowledge ResearchGroup and chairs the
award-winning Literacies inSecond Languages Project
Research Lab.
Raul is a research professor atUniversidad Pontificia
Bolivariana in Colombia.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
(02:19):
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me, your host,
lindsay Persaud, for ClassroomCaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice.
Raul, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Thank you so much, Lindsay.
Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So, from your own experiences in education, will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Hmm, I mean that's actually.
I mean it's a beautifulquestion.
Because I mean sometimes youdon't think about that and I
want to.
As I read the question Istarted thinking how far back do
I want to go?
And I said, let me just go backway back and hop in the
DeLorean or the TARDIS orwhichever time device you want
to use for this, and I'm goingto go back all the way to 1999.
(03:06):
And I like to go back to 1999because that's when I wrote my
first publication.
And I like to go back to thatfirst publication for I mean for
a number of reasons.
One of them is because it tookme a while to appreciate it and
I even remember writing a blogin my Medium blog post about the
(03:28):
process of how, at some point Ireally really didn't like the
publication and then I realizedthat that publication is
actually was necessary foreverything else to happen.
That paper is something aboutproject work and how I use
project work to get my studentsintroduced to writing.
It was the very first time Idid something that would look
(03:48):
like classroom research.
I mean, I really had no ideathat that was called classroom
research.
I had no idea how to frame it.
I was going out by a number ofintuitions when I wrote that
paper.
I mean, I made a couple ofpresentations in national
conferences and then I turned itinto an article.
I made a couple ofpresentations in national
conferences and then I turned itinto an article.
But I like to go back to thatmoment because, as a very young
(04:09):
teacher at the time, I feel thatthat set a lot of things in
motion that a few years laterbegan to crystallize when I was
in grad school and I startedlooking back into this work and
saying, oh, this is whatresearch looks like and this is
what teachers can do.
And that frames how I do all ofmy mentoring in helping
(04:30):
teachers materialize ideas intheir classrooms and turn it
into research.
So, I think that's for me that'sthe first one, because, again,
without that first publication,nothing else would have happened
.
I don't think the secondpublication would have happened.
Fulbright wouldn't havehappened, all the pubs I got
after that and the books I'mwriting right now nothing of
(04:51):
that would have happened.
So I always like to go back inthat because sometimes, as we
get older and we move into ourcareer, we forget about the
beginning and we can be veryunkind to our beginning or say
that it's meaningless or it'sinsignificant, it's very small,
and that always reminds me thatno, we have to start somewhere
(05:14):
and evolution is just the resultof making those first steps and
making those first mistakes andthen move on and start thinking
of bigger and better things.
So that's why I thought I wouldsay this first moment, because
that was a moment when I said Ican write, I have a voice, I
have something worth presentingand people are listening to this
(05:35):
and I can start building fromthis.
And I go back to that alsobecause one of the things I like
to tell grad students in myclasses is a lot of research
that we do in education beginsin classrooms.
Like, not all the research thatwe do in education begins in
multimillion-dollar grants.
(05:56):
A lot of it begins withteachers who are very motivated
and they start doing wild stuffwith their students who are very
motivated.
And they start doing wild stuffwith their students and they
learn how to turn it into apaper that they present to that
local conference, that theypresent to that major conference
.
That becomes an article, thatbecomes a book, that becomes a
video, that becomes a TikTok,that becomes a podcast, that
(06:18):
becomes something else, and howwe need to learn to value those
experiences and not simply thinkthat the only thing worth
taking to ARA or NCTE or LRA isthe big R research stuff.
A lot of the grassroots stuffbelongs in those spaces.
A lot of the grassroots stuffneeds to be heard in those
(06:39):
spaces, especially in times likethese where we have big
questions about the nature ofresearch.
And I would say the secondmoment I think the second moment
is ongoing, but it has to dowith creating my research lab.
I started conceptualizing in2011, and I chartered the lab
(06:59):
the Literacies andPsychoanalysis Project in 2012.
And that's one of the things Iusually inevitably talk about
when I when I talk about my work, because it's it's in a
strictly linked.
I cannot talk about my workwithout talking about my lab and
talk about the community thatwe have built other slp.
One of the reasons I like tothink about that is because that
(07:20):
answers a question thatsometimes doc students have as
they're finishing theirdoctorates.
It's what can I do with mydissertation?
And then there's a thinkingyeah, you can write the articles
, you can write a book out ofyour dissertation.
But sometimes, if you thinkcarefully enough, you can go
back to your conceptualframeworks, to the methodology
sections, and you can build acommunity to do research with.
(07:44):
And that's what I did.
I mean, I had a universitymandate that said we want to
have student research lab thatlooks into English ed.
And I said, well, I can do that.
I'm just going to gear it intoliteracy, because that's what I
spent the last eight years of mylife, trying to make sense of
it, and that's what I want tobuild my postdoctoral career
(08:05):
around the whole thing aboutliteracy.
And I like to think of that as amoment that has been ongoing
for the past 13 years, becauseevery time I meet with my
students I always come up withnew ideas.
And I mean just before thisconversation, I had a meeting
with one of my students.
She just joined the lab a fewweeks ago and she came with an
(08:27):
idea for her senior thesis.
We looked at the idea and saidI asked her do you really want
to do this?
She's like, no, I don't.
I said, well, of course not.
Let's sort of say what do youreally want to do?
As we were talking I told herlisten, for me, the most
important thing is I want you tohave fun, I want you to be
yourself and how, through thelab, all my students and myself
(08:50):
included we have found ourselvesin the process.
I cannot think of any projectI've done with the students that
I don't feel like we're havingfun and my students see
themselves reflected in theprojects, but in the sense of
also building a community, thatwe feel that we're a community,
or a legion as we like to say inour lab, and I think sometimes
(09:12):
that's important.
Sometimes we forget about theimportance of building community
.
As we do research, we focus toomuch about the outcomes and not
enough about the process andhow we bring people along in the
journey, because at the end ofthe day, for me, what's
important for me is to see howmany people have gone through
this and what they've learnedand the kind of people they have
(09:34):
become as part of this journeywhere we're all growing together
.
So I'd like to start with thosetwo moments, because the second
one is still going.
We're still doing research,we're still doing the work on
gaming.
We're still doing the work ongaming, we're still going to
work in the city, we're stilldoing the work in the classrooms
, and I still see myself doingthat for however long life and
providence give me a chance todo it.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I think everything I hear in what you're sharing,
raul, is about the journey, eventhat first publication that, I
think often are firsts.
We look back on them and think,oh boy, you know what a mess
that was.
Or I wish I'd done something orsaid something differently, but
(10:14):
I couldn't agree more.
I think that it is the journeythat takes us where we are now
and without following that path,we might end up in very
different places Without, youknow, acknowledging our growth
and our connections with others.
It's hard to make progress inthe good work that we want to do
.
You know, as you talk aboutfinding yourself, having a good
time being yourself, the work ofeducation, in my view, should
be joyful.
It should be a space ofcommunity and of reciprocity and
(10:38):
, you know, a space of sharedlearning, and I hear that in
everything that you share.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, and I think, and again, the power of finding
yourself.
It's when I think about thejourney.
It's also part of it has beenmy own journey in how, over this
past I would say that that's 15years since I finished my PhD
I'm kept.
Oh my God, I can't believe it'sbeen that long.
No, how I had to deal with.
Okay, I now I'm going to have'mgoing to have to start mentoring
(11:06):
my own students.
So how am I going to do that?
Like, what am I going to pickup from the lessons I have from
the great mentors I had in gradschool?
And how am I going to do thismy own thing?
And how do I find that fineline where I can guide my
students into doing what theywant to do, but not turn it into
what I want to do?
(11:27):
And I always like to tell mystudents I don't have to do, I
don't do dissertations or thesisvicariously.
I already wrote mine, so I wantyou to write yours, just want
to guide you.
And it's also the same timecoming to terms with as I get
older, coming to terms with I amone of the elders now and it's
been, that's been part of myjourney how, oh, I'm becoming
(11:50):
one of the ancestors.
I think I remember hearingErnest Morrell say that once.
It's how we go from watchingthe ancestors to becoming the
ancestors and how we take thatrole and how we embrace that.
How we take that role and howwe embrace that Now I'm
mentoring all these youngerscholars having my students,
having their students which issomething that's happened over
(12:12):
the past few years, when I havemy master's students, have
master's students and soon mydoc students are going to have
their own doc students how myrole continues to be in helping
these young generations ofscholars as I continue doing my
work and as I continue thisjourney in this, you know this
next stage of my career.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I think that cycle of mentorship plays out at every
level of education.
It's not just researcher toresearcher, or a college student
to college student, butcertainly also classroom teacher
to young person.
You know, and I think that inthat cycle of life, so to speak
because I think it's obviouslynot just education but life too,
as I'm getting older and I'vebecome the oldest generation in
(12:51):
my family, which seems very,very odd place to be what you're
saying really resonates with methis idea that we are always
becoming and we have thoseinfluences from others, people
we think with, people we enjoyworking with and talking with,
who help to shape us into who wecontinue to become, while we
(13:12):
are also hopefully supportingthem to become who they want to
be as well it's one of thosethings that sometimes we need to
talk more about, because thisnotion of mentoring, I mean we
use that word often but wesometimes mean it as, oh, it's
about the younglings.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
but I mean, I remember having a lot of these
conversations over the past fewyears with with my advisor, with
arlette willis, uh, and how Italked with arlette all the time
about all these new roles thatI have to undertake and how
important it is to have someonewho's been there, who's done
that, who can help you navigatethese spaces, as you navigate
(13:52):
new questions, as I, for example, as I navigate a world where I
have dog students in their 40sand their 50s, and how that has
changed entirely any perceptionI had about mentoring.
Like, no, it's one thing is tomentor dog students in their
early 30s, which is the timewhen I was a dog student and
(14:14):
other things when I have to facemy students in their 40s.
I have students in their early50s, mid 50s, facing all these
other challenges that you knowaging brings to the table, and
how I navigate that in order tosupport them in that part of the
journey.
And I always like to joke, Imean, those were things that
grads could be unprepared before, but I still have to find ways
(14:37):
to work around it.
I mean the community sense.
I think it's really important.
I mean in the sense ofmentorship of our students and
us scholars in training, how weget the inner circles involved
in the process, and I think forme that's one thing I value a
lot, that I always like toensure that my students have
(15:00):
spaces where they can stillnurture their family circles,
whatever the family looks like.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, I think everything you're saying about
education and literacy andmentoring in this highly
humanized way it rubs up againstsome.
I think the systems that are inplace in educational structures
that you know tell us to put inmore hours, do more work more.
Forget that you're a humanright, forget that you have
(15:28):
interests and needs and just sitdown at your computer and get
it all done.
I could really appreciate thaton so many levels that we can't
lose sight of our circles ofinfluence and our own
communities, whether they arefamilial communities or our
chosen communities.
It's important that we remainin those kind of human circles
rather than you know, feelinglike a cog in a wheel.
(15:50):
Yeah, so what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Well, I love that question.
I think the first thing I wantlisteners to know about my work
is to know what we do and I sayme, I mean when I talk about the
work I do along with myresearch team, my research lab,
my legion, I would sayconceptually at work.
It's basically at theintersection between second
(16:15):
language studies and TESOL andliteracy studies, and when we
talk about this idea of literacyin second languages project as
the name for our lab, literacyin second languages is that.
It's that intersection where westart thinking how we explore
the presence of multiplelanguages in different spaces
that sometimes we don't payattention to.
(16:36):
Like the cities, cities areincredibly prelingual spaces.
It's just that we sometimesdon't pay attention to that
because oh, it's just abillboard, oh, it's just a
graffiti, it's just a sticker ona pole, on a light pole.
It's just, it's the name of astore, it's the name of a
(16:57):
barbershop.
But once you start looking atthat more carefully and I'd say
without being so judgmental, youcan learn so much about the way
languages shape and reshapecities and how we have access to
so many languages in oureveryday life that we're not
(17:17):
even listening to, we're notpaying attention to.
So that's been one of the linesof work I've developed with my
team over the past decade andwe're still working on it
looking at how languages createdifferent ways to look at a city
if we want to conceive the city, and thinking about what we can
learn about that when we'reteaching languages and what we
can learn about that when we areteaching languages.
Then there's all the work thatwe've done with video games and
(17:42):
how gamers appropriate languageswithin that gaming culture,
within the play, and how theyuse these languages and
strategies to thrive in thegames and to belong to the games
and to belong to thesecommunities.
And then there is the work thatwe do with teachers in the sense
of give them the theory.
That's what I advocate for.
(18:03):
That's the thing I've done withmy master's students and with
my doctoral students.
Look, here's the theory, here'smultimodality, here's critical
literacy, here's multiliteracies, here's digital literacies,
here.
Do something, think, mean,think about this like you can
use whatever metaphor you wantPlay-Doh, lego box, whatever you
want, whatever you want andbuild something with it.
(18:25):
You're the one in yourclassroom.
I'm not here to tell you whatyou can do.
I'm here to tell you this iswhat a theory could do if you
play with it and we just letteachers play with theory, which
is something that we're notdoing enough, this idea that we
still have places where we thinkthat teachers need to be told
(18:46):
exactly what to do and that weneed to come with this
prepackaged thing and we have togive them this prepackaged
thing because that's what theywant and the reality that's no,
that's not what they want.
They don't want the prepackagedsolution.
They take it because that's theonly choice you give them.
I mean, if all you're going tooffer me for dinner is ramen
(19:07):
noodles and my choice is ramennoodles or go hungry, I'm going
to have the noodles.
But if you give me the optionof going to the kitchen, opening
the cupboard, see what's in thecupboard and cook something,
I'm going to go and cooksomething.
So that's what I'm saying.
What options are we givingteachers?
Are we giving the teacher theoptions of going to the cupboard
and finding and picking theingredients in the cupboard and
(19:30):
then you give them the skilletand then you let them cook?
Or are you just telling themall you can eat is this
prepackaged pan and that's whatyou can eat?
When you give teachers thepossibility to cook, to play
with theory.
I've seen my teachers doincredible things in the
classrooms, in public classrooms, in rural classrooms.
(19:51):
So I'm not talking about herethe elite bilingual private
schools that we have sometimesin Colombia that happens there
too, make no mistake about itbut I'm talking about my
teachers in public schools andinner city neighborhoods, my
teachers in rural schools takingtheory and doing the alchemy
that we need to do with theoryand getting their students
(20:15):
engaged in writing, gettingstudents engaged in learning a
language, getting studentsengaged in literacy.
That's part of the work I dowith teachers is get them into
theory and then helping my youngteachers understand, first of
all, the theory is accessible,that research is accessible,
that they can theorize, thatthey can talk methodology, even
(20:38):
if they're undergrads, myundergrads know that once we
enter this place, we are goingto talk.
We're going to get seriousabout talking about methodology.
We're going to get seriousabout talking about theory.
We're going to conceptualize,we're going to write conceptual
papers.
We're going to write and we'regoing to talk about this in the
grandest stages, and that's oneof the things that what we do.
I mean I tell my students not tobe afraid.
(20:59):
No, I tell them, no, we belongat LRA, we belong at ARA, we
belong at internationalconferences and that's where
we're going to go how Well,we'll figure it out later.
But we belong in those podcasts, we belong in those webinars
because we're doing great stuffand because my students are they
.
I mean, I believe in theirabsolute excellence, I believe
(21:22):
in their awesomeness, I believein their brilliance.
And if I'm not gonna believe inmy students brilliance,
awesomeness and fire then why doI even have a research lab in
the first place?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
my wheels are are going for sure what you're
saying, raul.
It just reminds me of often theway that educators are treated
in the spaces where they work.
You know so often teachers aretreated as though they don't
know as much as the printedcurriculum, right?
They're treated as though theydon't know as much as
policymakers no-transcript andthe experiences they have and
(22:24):
leaning on them to do the goodwork with the theories.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Absolutely.
I mean, I'm one.
I mean because one of thethings I really hate is when
people talk about this wholenotion that we have to recruit
the best of the brightest, and Ihear this all the time.
Yeah, we have to find ways toget the best of the brightest.
And then I go to my lab and Istart meeting with my undergrads
and I look at them and I lookat what they do and I'm like
(22:51):
what are you talking about?
I'm already working with thebest and the brightest.
I mean, my students are thebest and the brightest and I
believe it firmly and they proveit to me every single day With
everything we have at ourresearch meeting.
There is so much magic in thosemeetings and I get so many
ideas and they help me think.
I mean the fact that I'mwriting one book.
(23:14):
The book about video games isbasically all my co-authors are
undergrads and early careerteachers.
I have a couple of veteranteachers, but students who are
giving me everything they gotand they're throwing their magic
in every single chapter ofwriting.
But it begins from the notionthat they tell me we got this
golden opportunity.
Let's not put it to waste.
(23:36):
And they don't put it to waste.
So it's first of all, it's howwe create.
When we are in those positionswhere we can open these spaces,
who are we bringing to the table?
Who are we bringing along forthe ride?
It's, I'm thinking about us andHigher Ed.
We get invited to all theseparties and the question I would
(23:58):
like to ask everybody is areyou bringing a plus one, a plus
two, a plus three, a plus ten,or are you just flying solo?
Because I mean, that's the bigquestion for me, that's, that's
the big challenge.
Are you flying solo or are you,as someone told me, lift him as
you climb?
You RSVP to the party.
Who's your plus one?
(24:18):
And I mean by a party, I mean abook chapter.
You're writing.
Are you bringing a plus one oryou just decided that this is a
solo party?
Are you inviting your studentsto write with you?
Are you inviting juniorcolleagues to write with you?
Now, if they decline, that's awhole different story.
But if your students arewilling and they want to write
and they're good, and you're notbringing them along, you're not
(24:41):
telling them, you're notbringing them along for the
party, I'm going to blame you.
You're the one who got theinvitation my students at this
particular moment in theircareers.
No one is going to invite mystudents to give a talk or to
join a podcast or to present apaper or put together a
symposium.
I get those invitations.
So if I get those invitationsand I don't bring them along,
(25:03):
then the responsibility is mine.
Our responsibility as mentorsis also creating those spaces
for the younger generations, forpeople to know they exist,
giving opportunities thatthey're not going to have unless
someone who's in a position toget those opportunities invites
them.
So get your team, get yourstudents to be part of these
spaces.
That's how we build community,that's how we build a legacy.
(25:27):
Now, in many ways, that's howwe build the future of this, how
we get the teachers, how we getthe undergrads, how we get the
grad students involved so thatthey know what it's like, they
get a taste of those spaces andthen, when it's their chance,
they will surely pay it forward.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Considering how we act and react in each and every
moment and how that does in factsupport paths to a better
future for all of us.
This idea of bringing a plusone, I've never really thought
about it that way.
It is so critical whether weare inviting teachers to
research conversations, askingthem to share their great ideas,
(26:05):
inviting them to come, you know, join projects and share their
own expertise, help us sense,make from their own perspectives
.
There's such energy in what yousay, Raul, and I think that's
an area where, in some spaces, Ithink we are thoroughly lacking
.
So if we can re-energize somespaces where teachers do work
(26:27):
and students work, we could allbe in a much better place.
I think this sense of community, the sense of supporting each
other as we continue to grow inour thinking and even influence
to bring others along with us,yeah, and it's also about
breaking this culture ofgatekeeping that we have.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I mean, it's a culture that I have with
colleagues.
I mean how much gatekeeping itis when people put together
volumes.
I recently just postedsomething on Blue Sky about that
, saying that, look, if you'reediting a volume and you get so
many good submissions for once,why don't you try, instead of
sending the letter, saying, oh,we got so many good submissions,
(27:08):
but yours doesn't fit.
Why don't you look at the onesthat don't fit and see what's
going on there?
And people will be like peoplesay, yeah, but you still have.
Now you have to go to the workof finding more reviewers or
finding.
Look, I never said it was goingto be easy.
I said it's possible.
If you get 30 abstracts for avolume but you can only have 10,
is there a possibility fromthose 30, you can get another 10
(27:32):
, that you can make anotherissue or another volume and
another 10, that's going to beanother volume.
And, yes, you're going to haveto spend your time looking for
another publisher for that.
You're going to have to startlooking for another journal for
that.
But at the end of the day, whenyou can say that you opened
room for 30 people as opposed toclosing the door on 20, what's
going to sound better?
(27:53):
What's going to make you lookbetter, buddy?
I mean even if you're going tothink in this very utilitarian
sense.
Well, I put together threeissues and I got 30 people who
published papers as opposed to.
I just talked to the 10 peopleI know, because it's like the 10
people I know, my ocean's 11thingy, and then everybody else.
Yeah, good luck, beautifulabstract, but good luck, that's
(28:17):
gatekeeping.
There is too much of that, andas we break, breaking the
cultural gatekeeping meansmaking sure that practitioners
get places, that speakers,people who are writing in their
second language, get welcome tothose spaces, without having to
prove to you that I got my paperproofread by a native speaker
(28:38):
before I submitted it here.
Like I always like to be kindof a little snarky and saying,
yeah, if I'm a native speakerwho knows as much about the
subject as I do, I'm happy tohave that person proofread it
for me.
Until that happens, I'm notgoing to lose my sleep.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You know, this happens on a different level in
classrooms every day.
In fact, teachers areencouraged to be gatekeepers in
so many ways.
You've either met this precisestandard and you must meet the
bar as it was set by someoneelse, rather than looking for
the brilliance and thenidentifying how those ideas kind
of coalesce, or how we makesense of them together, even
(29:13):
when they weren't what weexpected ideas kind of coalesce,
or how we make sense of themtogether, even when they weren't
what we expected.
Yeah, you've just given me somuch to think about.
Is there anything else you wantto share with listeners about
your work?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I think one of the things I would say I'm very
proud of is not just that, it'show we also have created a
culture of understanding theacademic literacy culture.
I always love to talk about ourlittle publication, the LSLP
Micropapers, as something thathas become a hallmark of our
work, in the sense that as weconceptualize our research, we
(29:46):
write those little papers and mystudents and I can make so much
sense of these concepts andthen we have these things
already online that people canfind and people can cite and
people can use as a reference.
But it's become a culture whereeverybody knows they have to
write one and the sense ofaccomplishment when that micro
(30:08):
paper is published on thewebsite and we advertise that
it's published, they feel likeit's empowering.
I can talk about these heavyresearch concepts, these things
about literacy, and say it in away that is articulate.
But it's also mine, because Ithink the thing about theory is
not simply regurgitating theauthors or regurgitating the
(30:29):
references, but how I make senseof this for the stuff I'm doing
.
If I'm talking about AI, yeah,but what does AI mean to you and
how are you thinking about thatwork?
You're thinking about criticalliteracy yes, great, and there
is a host of people you have toread in order to understand the
field, but what does it mean toyou and what does it mean for
(30:52):
the work you're doing with yourstudents?
Same goes with the otherconcepts.
Or we talk about video games,we talk about urban ethnography
or whatever concept that we'redeveloping at the moment, and I
I love that part of the workbecause everybody's already
thinking and writing and, as weand we're collectively building
a conceptual base that helps usall the time, and I think that
(31:16):
that that is also a really,really pretty thing about the
things we do.
It's how we are also thinkingof knowledge construction and
conceptualizing from a verygrassroots perspective that, yes
, we have to read the who's, whoand everybody who's done
something and we have to do thesearches, but at the same time,
we're also adding ourcontribution, through the things
(31:37):
we write, to the collectiveknowledge.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Is that site something that we can link in
your show notes and make thatavailable to listeners?
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Okay, wonderful, I mean it's all available.
It's basically it's all on ourwebsite, but there is one
particular link that takes youdirectly to the LSDP micro
papers.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Great.
We will link that in the shownotes and on your guest page.
So one closing question for you, Raul.
Given the challenges of today'seducational climate, what
message do you want teachers tohear?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Oh boy, now that's a question that I think probably
would have had a very differentanswer two months ago, would
have a very different answer amonth ago and it would have had
a different answer three weeksago.
So let's try to give the bestanswer we can today, but I think
first I would like to take amoment to get all those teachers
out there, like everywhere,everywhere in the world, because
(32:28):
there are some struggles toteachers that are not unique to
one country.
Many of these challenges arecollective.
I see those struggles inteachers in Colombia and I heard
those struggles in teachers inNorway, and I've seen those
struggles in teaching in the US,and I heard the struggles in
teaching in Brazil and in Polandand in Mexico, and I hear from
(32:51):
teachers in different parts ofLatin America.
But the first thing I wouldlike to say is, first of all,
please understand that many ofus who are in higher ed we
appreciate you, that your workis appreciated, that your work
is respected, that your work iswelcome, that maybe in higher ed
(33:12):
we need to interrogateourselves about how often we
don't say that, how often wedon't tell teachers that their
job is worthwhile, that they'redoing fantastic jobs, that they
are sometimes beating everyimaginable odd, every imaginable
challenge and challenges thatsometimes we in higher ed, at
(33:33):
this particular point in ourcareers, might not even be able
to face ourselves or meetourselves.
That your work and I like and Ilike to make sure that teachers
hear this no, you, you areappreciated and we appreciate
you and you, what you do withyour students, we see it and we
should have told you this moreoften and we should have
advocated for you more often.
(33:56):
I've never liked to come to talkto teachers from deficit
perspectives I mean, they haveheard enough of that.
I like to always come to theidea that what you're doing is
amazing.
You're doing great stuff.
Maybe you don't use theterminology that we use.
Maybe you don't call itmultimodality.
Maybe you don't call itcritical literacy.
Maybe you don't call itmultiliteracies.
Maybe you don't call itmultimodality.
Maybe you don't call itcritical literacy.
(34:16):
Maybe you don't call itmultiliteracies.
Maybe you don't call it thisthat I call it in my work, but
when I go and see it, what youdo in your classrooms, I see
what you're doing and then wecan find middle ground where I
can tell you this is what it'scalled and you can show me what
you're doing and then we canfind together a way to build it.
These are difficult times, Ithink.
(34:36):
Not acknowledging that, thatthere are difficult times, it
would be foolish.
But at the same time, I thinkthat there are pockets of hope
and happiness and joy that westill have to exploit and we
still have to discover.
Stay true to yourselves.
I think that would be the onething I tell you.
I mean, teachers are doing.
Teachers are amazing.
One thing I had the chance tolearn working with my teachers
(34:57):
at the lab is the amazing workthey do and how much of a
difference they make when theyare in their classrooms.
And then I also look at whatteacher educators are doing
every day in different ways andhow much that matters when it
comes to getting teachers outthere in the field.
So I would say that would bewhat I would say is continue
(35:19):
doing the work.
I would say from the end ofteacher ed, we have to really
coalesce a little more, becausemore challenges are coming and
we're not coalescing enough,we're not strategizing enough.
We have to sustain ourcommunities and sustain them
with I mean with a lot of loveand hope.
But love and hope, that is notidealistic, but it's actually
(35:40):
grounded in the fight.
But that would be my messageand just keep being yourselves,
keep doing the great work you'redoing.
I mean, the thing aboutteaching is that sometimes
people don't notice what you didright away they feel, but they
notice it eventually.
But I think those of us in thesepositions of research and
advocacy, we need to do a muchbetter job in, you know, telling
(36:04):
teachers and telling ourstudents that they're doing
great stuff and that they, theirwork, matters.
I think we need to do I meanagain, higher ed and research.
We need to do better.
We need to do, I mean again,higher ed and research.
We need to do better.
We need to do better because Ithink we're not.
I mean, we have great effortsbut they're still isolated.
But we need to do something more.
Let's say, more widespread,more sustained, more sustainable
(36:26):
.
Of course, with this, I need tomake sure I keep telling that
to my teachers and keep tellingthat to my students, not always
remind them how amazing they are, remind them of the brilliance
and the fire that they have, andI think as long as we keep
doing that and we keep workingtogether to sustain that fire, I
mean that's part of this, partof fighting and winning the good
(36:49):
fight, is that?
So I hope that really resonateswith teachers and other
colleagues and that inspirespeople to keep the spark alive.
I mean, at least for me, that'swhat I'm going to do in the
next hour or so when I'm goingto start meeting my students to
work on our chapters and work onour projects.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I know your message certainly resonates with me and
I absolutely agree.
The challenges are collective,but I think whenever we put some
collective energy intosupporting the good fight, as
you called it, we can do somegreat things.
We can still identify and workwithin those pockets of hope and
joy and love and share thatwith with everyone in our
(37:26):
educational community, theyoungest of students to our
oldest of students.
So so, Raul, I thank you somuch for spending this time with
me.
So, Raul, I thank you so muchfor spending this time with me.
I think you've got such acritical message always, but
certainly now, In this moment, Ithink we need more than ever to
honor each other and supporteach other and lift up each
(37:49):
other's voices so that we cancontinue doing the good work for
young people.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
My pleasure, pleasure is all mine.
I appreciate the space and theconversation and, yeah, let's
keep it going, let's keep itrolling, let's keep doing the
good work.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Great Thank you.
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is knownworldwide for his work in the
areas of second languages,critical discourse analysis and
sociocultural theory.
In particular, he studies theapplications of alternative
literacy paradigms to analyzesecond language literacy
practices in urban and virtualspaces.
(38:26):
He works to understand the useof languages as social and
semiotic resource.
His work has been published inthe Journal of Adolescent and
Adult Literacy, bilingualism andBilingual Education, social
Semiotics, key Concepts inIntercultural Dialogue.
Pedagogies, an internationalEducation, language and Ideology
Journal of Education forMultilingualism, howe Journal
(38:59):
from Columbia and Crossroads, ajournal of English studies from
Poland.
He also co-edited the Handbookof Critical Literacies in
Translanguaging andMultimodality as Flow Agency and
a New Sense of Advocacy in andfrom the global South, published
in 2024, as well as forthcomingbooks Understanding Second
Language Users as Gamers,language as Victory, reimagining
(39:23):
Literacy in the Age of AITheory and Practice English
Language Teacher Education inLatin America.
And Reimagining CriticalMultimodality in Education from
Soil soil to seedlings.
Dr Raul Alberto Mora is aresearcher in the Pedagogies and
Didactics of Knowledge ResearchGroup and chairs the
award-winning Literacies inSecond Languages Project
(39:46):
Research Lab.
He has served as visitingprofessor, visiting scholar and
guest lecturer at universitiesin Colombia, poland, mexico,
chechnya, brazil, united States,spain and Norway.
Raul is a graduate of theUniversity of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign and a researchprofessor at Universidad
(40:09):
Pontificia Bolivariana inColombia.
For the good of all students,classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education, research andpractice.
If this show gives you thingsto think about, help us spread
the word.
Talk to your colleagues andeducator friends about what you
hear.
You can support the show bysubscribing, liking and
(40:32):
reviewing this podcast throughyour podcast provider.
Subscribing, liking andreviewing this podcast through
your podcast provider.
Visit classroomcaffeinecom,where you can subscribe to
receive our short monthlynewsletter, the Espresso Shot.
On our website, you can alsolearn more about each guest,
find transcripts for ourepisodes, explore topics using
our drop-down menu of tags,request an episode, topic or
(40:57):
potential guest, support ourresearch through our listener
survey or learn more about theresearch we're doing on our
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Connect with us on social mediathrough Instagram, facebook and
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We would love to hear from you.
Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team Leah Berger,
abaya Valuru, stephanie Bransonand Shaba Oshfath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
(41:19):
Thanks for joining me.
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