Episode Transcript
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Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education
research has a problem.
The work of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers.
Classroom Caffeine is here tohelp.
In each episode, I talk with atop education researcher or an
expert educator about what theyhave learned from years of
(00:32):
research and experiences.
In this episode, Dr.
Seth Parsons talks to us aboutthe power of the teacher, the
value of good curriculum, andmotivation and engagement in
learning.
Seth is known for his work inthe areas of elementary literacy
instruction, student engagementand motivation, adaptive
(00:54):
teaching and metacognitivestrategy development.
His research has been publishedin many of the field's top
journals, including the Journalof Literacy Research, Review of
Educational Research,Educational Researcher, Reading
Research Quarterly, ElementarySchool Journal, The Reading
Teacher, and Literacy Researchand Instruction.
(01:15):
In addition to journal articles, he has co-authored and edited
several practitioner-facingbooks, including Principles of
Effective Literacy InstructionGrades K-5, and Accelerating
Learning Recovery for AllStudents, both co-authored with
past Classroom Caffeine guestMargaret Vaughn, and Becoming a
(01:36):
Metacognitive Teacher.
He has served as the presidentof the Association of Literacy
Educators and Researchers, knownas ALER, and currently serves
as executive editor of theJournal of Educational Research
and co-editor of the LiteracyResearch Association's Journal
of Literacy Research andAssociate Editor of Reading and
(01:56):
Writing Quarterly.
Dr Seth A.
Parsons is a professor ofliteracy in the Sturtevant
Center for Literacy at GeorgeMason University.
For more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink and join me.
Your host, Lindsay Persohn forClassroom Caffeine: research to
(02:21):
energize your teaching practice.
Seth, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Seth Parsons (02:27):
Well, thank you
for having me.
Lindsay Persohn (02:29):
So, from your
own experiences in education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now?
Seth Parsons (02:37):
Sure so one sort
of commonality that I can trace
throughout my time in educationis the power of the teacher and
this came as an aha moment forme in the classroom when I was a
teacher, my first year teaching.
I remember that moment where itreally hit me that I'm in
control of this world here andif I'm having a bad day or I'm
(03:02):
stressed, that negativelyimpacts my teaching, and if I'm
joyful and I'm having a greatday and I'm enthusiastic, that
positively influences theclassroom and student learning
and their experiences.
And that was a really powerfulreminder to me and it sort of
increased the responsibilitythat I had as a teacher and it
(03:23):
sort of increased theresponsibility that I had as a
teacher.
I never really forgot thatmoment very early in my first
year teaching where I thought,oh geez, like I'm in complete
charge of this entire cultureand I need to be super aware of
(03:46):
what I'm bringing with me to theclassroom and how I'm operating
within this space, because I'mthe one that's setting this
stage and the students arefeeding off of me and my mood
and my being and the totality ofwhat it means to be with those
kids all day doctor work and Ibegan doing extensive reading on
effective reading instruction,exemplary reading teachers, and
(04:07):
over and over again it keptcoming down to the teacher as
being one of the most powerfulfactors in the class.
So that has continuedthroughout my career.
And I remember reading ChoiceWords by Peter Johnston and then
his follow-up book OpeningMinds.
That really brought it to lifein a neat way that showed the
(04:31):
power of the teacher in theclassroom and how their words
create the classroom world, andI thought that that was just an
awesome text that reallypalpably illustrated this.
And then, even further now I'm aparent and an uncle and my
daughter's just finishing upelementary school.
(04:52):
She's heading into middleschool next year and when I look
across her elementary years youknow there were some dynamite
years she had and there weresome duds, like she had had some
busts and what's the criticalfactor that determined that year
?
It was the teacher.
Like when she had an amazingdynamic teacher, she had an
(05:12):
amazing year and the learningwas through the roof.
And when there was a teacherthat like just didn't get her or
wasn't in it all the way, youknow the kids, the kids could
feed off of that and it was justsort of a blah year and her
learning they not sufferedtremendously, but it was less of
a year and they kept going backto the teacher.
(05:34):
So that's always been thiscentral theme that has run
through my teaching, my researchand even my life as a dad.
So that was something sort ofold.
That was a moment andexperience.
Another one, more recently, isthat I've been rethinking or
reconsidering curriculum.
(05:56):
So this power of the teacherthat I've always sort of
privileged in my thinking sortof juxtaposed the teacher with
the program, because I wasteaching No Child Left Behind
and the rollout of Reading First.
And then that's when I enteredmy doctoral program shortly
after that in about 2005.
(06:16):
So we're still in that No ChildLeft Behind era, where we were
getting more and more scriptedinstruction and more push
towards fidelity to the program.
So in those formative years ofmy work in doctoral studies it
was repeatedly my mantra was theteacher, not the program, the
(06:38):
teacher not the program.
But more recently I've engagedwith a colleague of mine who's
in policy and he comes from amuch different lens, whereas I'm
a classroom guy and always havebeen, that's where I do all my
research.
That's where I always thinkwith my research and with my,
when I'm reading empiricalstudies and stuff is.
(06:59):
My mind is always like what isthe implications of this for
teachers in the classroom?
Well, he's a policy leaderleader who's looking at like
federal policies, influenceacross the nation and state
policy across an entire state,and we've had some really good
conversations where I would pickhis brain about the science of
reading policy because I wasconfused by the motives behind a
(07:22):
lot of the legislation that wastaking place.
So we had great conversationsand he really turned me around
regarding curricula.
So instead of maintaining thissort of either-or, it's not the
teacher versus the curriculum,I've really shifted my thinking
to see the power of a strongcurricula and recognizing that
it's a both-and not an either-or.
(07:43):
So that's a pretty big shift inmy thinking.
That's relatively new.
That's sort of come out of acollegiality, but also the
shifting policy landscape ofreading research.
Lindsay Persohn (08:00):
Seth everything
you say just it seems so
important to me.
You know, I think that teachersdo make such a huge difference,
and I think you're right.
It's an awesome responsibility,but it's also a really great
privilege to be able to sort ofcreate your own little microcosm
and to support individuallearners within your classroom
(08:21):
space, learners within yourclassroom space.
What I was thinking about asyou were talking about, you know
, No Child Left Behind andscripted curricula.
You know, I was a classroomteacher through those shifts as
well, and it does seem as though, you know you say it is a both
and and I agree it is a both,and I think in a lot of spaces
it's not always set up that way.
(08:41):
It's set up for teachers to haveto kind of compete with the
curriculum.
Right, they're told you mustread these lines, and if you are
a trained educator and aprofessional and you think, well
, this doesn't make any sense orwell, this is awfully boring,
you know finding that balance sothat you maintain that power of
(09:02):
the teacher, as you called it,while also you know doing what's
expected of you.
But I think that it is anawesome responsibility and I
think that that can beintimidating, but it can also be
a your knowledge to adapt andhopefully you're in a space
where you're allowed to do that,where you can adapt the
(09:27):
curriculum so that it does workfor you as the teacher and
instructional leader in the room, but also for your students, to
sort of meet them where theyare and to encourage the.
You know the gifts that theyalready come to the classroom
spaces with.
Seth Parsons (09:41):
Yes, 100%, and
that's a well.
First of all, one thing that Iwas thinking as you were talking
is that being in an amazingteacher's classroom never ceases
to impress and amaze me, andyou can almost feel it when you
walk into the classroom.
It doesn't take long until yourealize, oh, this space is
(10:02):
special and there's some amazinglearning taking place and it's
a place where everyone'slearning.
So I just continually take myhat off to amazing teachers who
are doing it, often in spite ofeverything that falls on
teachers overflowing platesthese days.
And just a big shout out to allthe awesome teachers out there,
(10:25):
because you're making a worldof difference, more than I think
they even know.
And I see that also as aprivilege to be able to go in
and out of a lot of classroomsin my teacher education role and
working with pre-service andin-service teachers.
It solidified this stance alsoof there's not one way to be an
exceptional teacher.
(10:47):
I've seen exceptional teacherswho are vastly different in
their personalities, how theyteach, how they interact with
kids, and they're both justoutstanding and doing amazing
things for the kids.
But it just reiterates that youcan't can, that you can't put
it in a package and sell it.
But, as I've just described, wecan't say well, that means we
(11:08):
don't need curricula.
We absolutely need strongcurricula, and that's why an
amazing teacher with a goodresource can do amazing things,
and a brand new teacher, who maynot have had the preparation
that they wanted or desired,still has the resource to be
able to provide qualityinstruction to the students
they're serving.
(11:29):
So it's this combination ofteacher autonomy along with the
resources of a strong curriculum.
Lindsay Persohn (11:37):
Well, I think
that that's one reason why so
many teachers have felt sochallenged by, you know, the
policies that No Child LeftBehind and other legislation of
that type has sort of left uswith.
You know, we're talking hereabout how highly individualized
it is to be an exceptionalteacher, and that stands in
direct contrast to the idea ofstandardizing education.
(12:01):
It just doesn't quite work.
I mean, we're in the humanbusiness, you know, people
aren't widgets, and I think thatthat's important for us to
remind ourselves of also, as we,you know, maybe feel a little
bit caught in the spokes of somepolicy.
Seth Parsons (12:15):
Yeah, I agree.
Couldn't have said it bettermyself.
Lindsay Persohn (12:18):
So, Seth, what
would you like listeners to know
about your work?
Seth Parsons (12:23):
Well, we've segued
very nicely into what I was
hoping to highlight, but youknow two themes of my
scholarship.
The research I've been doing isthat A) teachers matter, which
shouldn't surprise you this farinto the podcast, but also that
motivation matters matters.
(12:45):
And first, with teachers matter, because we know the power of
the teacher.
I've spent most of my careertrying to understand those
instructional moves thatteachers make, so we know that
we can't can them and put theminto a program and have teachers
read the script to fidelity.
That that's not the recipe forone of those amazing classrooms
you walk into.
The recipe for one of thoseamazing classrooms you walk into
(13:07):
Because, as you've mentioned,the kids that we're serving.
They're different in a thousanddifferent important ways and
classrooms are already complex,unpredictable.
I mean you've got 30 humanbeings, one adult and a bunch of
children or youth in one spaceand we're trying to move towards
(13:27):
.
You know knowledge and skillsand strategies that these young
people need and they're going tocome with these different needs
, unexpected questions, thingsthat you think are going to
click very easily, don't, andthings that you think they're
going to struggle with.
They get way faster than youever thought and the teacher is
(13:49):
in this constant dynamic ofreading the student's needs and
then providing just rightinstruction.
So my colleagues and I,starting way back with my
dissertation under the guidanceof Jerry Duffy at UNC Greensboro
, have been trying to understandteachers' instructional
adaptations and I think thatthrough the decades that I've
(14:14):
been doing this work with otherslike Margaret Vaughn and Julie
Ankrum and Amy Morwood, royScales this research team has
come to sort of codify how andwhy teachers adapt.
We have, through observing inhundreds of classrooms across
the elementary levels, we have apretty strong picture of what
(14:37):
it is teachers do when theyadapt their instruction and
we're moving towards trying tofigure out, as teacher educators
, can this be taught and how canit be taught?
Because some teachers areamazing, flexible, responsive
educators who are really in tunewith their class and what's
taking place.
(14:58):
And as a teacher educator, I'mthinking how can I take these
college students who want tobecome teachers, these future
teachers, to develop that skillset?
So that's work.
That's really interesting.
That's front and center iswe've spent a long time
developing tools to be able tocapture and catalog what
adaptive teaching looks like,and now our focus is really
(15:42):
shifting towards this teachereducation question of what can
we do in professionaldevelopment and what can we do
in pre-service teacher educationthat can my classroom, because
there were some kids when I wasteaching that nothing in my
toolbox or my toolkit could helpme reach these students, and I
(16:03):
know that they're notunreachable, but they would
seemingly do anything other thanthe work that I was asking them
to do.
So I have been puzzling overmotivating unmotivated students
and what can we do in classroomsas teachers, and also thinking
about the instruction, theactivities we're providing.
(16:24):
What can we do in classrooms asteachers, and also thinking
about the instruction, theactivities we're providing.
What can we do to motivate andengage students?
And that field has some reallyinteresting findings over the
years where we have a prettygood sense of the aspects of
instruction that are motivating.
And I feel like in the currentenvironment, particularly with
(17:10):
the science of reading, our ownefforts.
So in my mind, motivation hasto be a piece of the puzzle as
we continue to think about studyand enact policy trying to
enhance students' literacylearning.
I'm heartened by talk of how tobest meet diverse students'
needs.
We're paying attention to Tier1 and Tier 2 instruction more
(17:32):
than we ever have, which I seeas a good, positive byproduct of
this movement.
But one thing I don'tunderstand is why aren't we
talking about motivationalprinciples when we're talking
about Tier 2 instruction?
Why aren't we talking aboutmotivational principles when
we're talking about tier twoinstruction?
Why aren't we talking aboutmotivational principles when
we're choosing curricula thatare going to be required to be
used the entire literacy block?
(17:52):
So I just think there's a realopportunity, especially given
the strong research base thatmotivation has.
This isn't an idea.
This is something that's beenstudied for hundreds of years
and we know is a really powerfulaspect of teaching and learning
.
Lindsay Persohn (18:11):
So I think we
know that motivation and
engagement.
It doesn't exactly look like achecklist of sorts just like you
know factors of what goodadaptive teaching looks like.
Also isn't exactly a checklistyou talk about in your research
when it comes to what reallygreat adaptive, exciting
teaching might look like, orwhat kinds of characteristics
(18:39):
teachers might adopt or adapt ifthey're looking to be more
engaging or to shape thatmicrocosm of their classroom in
a more exciting kind of way, andthen maybe also a few of those
factors for motivating andengaging students.
Can you share a little bit moreabout that with us?
Seth Parsons (18:57):
Sure, sure thing.
So well, the two things you'reasking for are also related,
which isn't surprising becauseyou know classrooms are dynamic,
highly involved places, optimalinstruction for students.
We're seeing a lot of attentiontowards autonomy-supportive
(19:19):
classrooms andautonomy-supportive environments
, and this goes to Ryan and DC'swork on self-determination
theory, where studentinvolvement and student
motivation is on a continuumfrom autonomous to controlled,
and more autonomous situationsare conducive to more engagement
(19:41):
, more motivation.
People feel more motivated whenthey feel in control of their
own destiny and they have spaceto make decisions about how
things are going to run.
And that parallels to teachersand students.
And that parallels to teachersand students.
You know teachers, asprofessionals, deserve that
autonomy space to use thecurriculum and resources at
(20:02):
their disposal to best meet thestudents in their classroom,
whom they know way better thanany curriculum developer or
policymaker ever could.
But on the flip side, studentsalso learn best and operate
optimally in spaces where theyhave some autonomous freedom.
So, if we're thinking aboutreading, in particular, or
(20:24):
writing I've been studyingwriting more often when students
have these choices and theyfeel like their comments in the
classroom are valued, heard andtruly listened to, they're much
more motivated and engaged.
And similarly, to promotemotivation.
I encourage teachers to thinkabout what are we asking kids to
(20:46):
do?
So, looking at the academictasks or the, the activities
that we're asking students toengage in, the activities that
we're asking students to engagein and I often discuss this in
terms of constructivism, youknow, and in education 101, we
(21:08):
learn about Piaget and Vygotskyand that learning is optimized
through genuine activity.
You know, dewey talked about itas the education of experience
and if we want to truly thinkabout what are we asking
students to do?
Because what students do iswhat they're going to learn.
So the tasks and the activitieswe assign are really powerful
(21:31):
and oftentimes I feel like it'salmost like a cavalier decision
of what am I going to askstudents to do while I'm doing
this.
But it's much more weighty thanthat.
So if we think about theassignments we're giving
students and the degree to whichthey have choice, the degree to
which it's appropriatelychallenging, is there some level
(21:53):
of authenticity?
We know collaboration is alsomotivating and also supportive
of learning through sociallearning theories.
So those are sort of what Ithink of as principles that we
can apply to almost any contentor any activity.
To what degree do students getto collaborate?
To what degree do they get tohave any sort of choice?
(22:13):
To what degree is this relevantto their real lives outside of
school?
I think those are good sort oflenses that teachers can apply
when thinking about what am Iasking these youth and children
to do?
Lindsay Persohn (22:31):
We so closely
focus on what's a learning
outcome and it is kind of aforest for the trees sort of
situation, right, we're so hyperfocused on what is our endpoint
that I think sometimes weforget about how we actually get
there and what is it in factthat we are asking our students
to do in order to learn thatcontent.
Learn that content, as youpointed out, many theorists have
(22:56):
told us that we don't just sortof open things up and pour the
knowledge in.
There's action and reaction andthere's give and take in that
learning process and it doestake presence from a teacher.
It takes trust, you know, inthe whole classroom environment
and also, I think, the trustthat teachers may or may not
feel from policymakers, fromadministrators.
(23:18):
All of that plays such a majorrole in how that's translated to
the student experience.
So what you're giving me, orwhat you're reminding me, Seth,
is just this really highly humannature of teaching that, like
you said, it can't be canned, itcan't be bought.
It is something that'sdeveloped through skill and
(23:40):
experience and care and presence.
You know all of those reallyfoundational principles that I
think help us to feel safe andvalued in communities at large.
You know, it's the same.
It's the same stuff inclassrooms.
It's the same stuff in schools.
Seth Parsons (23:56):
Yeah, absolutely,
and that was one thing that came
to mind when you were you wereasking the last question, and it
slipped my brain but youbrought me back to it is that
teacher knowledge is soimportant.
And it's not just knowledge ofcontent and pedagogy, which are
(24:16):
vitally important, I don't wantto downplay that, but it's also
knowing the kids, knowing thechildren you're working with.
And what we found in thoseadaptive teaching studies is
that teachers who were mostresponsive and adapted in
thoughtful ways knew theirchildren deeply.
They knew their interests, theyknew what they did outside of
school, they knew what theycared about and that enabled
(24:40):
them to make instructional movesthat were just right for that
child.
Because they know that they arepassionate about horseback
riding or they are passionateabout soccer and you know man
city or whatever team is theirfavorite.
If they know that, that isanother tool that those teachers
(25:03):
can leverage to just reachthose kids, to bring it in.
Because a lot of instruction,especially culturally responsive
and culturally sustaininginstruction, is all about
knowing building that bridgebetween students' lives outside
of school and the school lifethat we're bringing them into.
(25:26):
And if there is no bridge,you're going to lose students
real fast because it becomessomething else.
That isn't for me and I'm anoutsider just doing time and
again.
This falls within the teacher'spurview unless we're tying
their hands with policy andlegislation.
Lindsay Persohn (25:47):
And you know, I
think the other thing is that
these details aren't the thingsthat usually make it into lesson
plans.
Even if a teacher is writingtheir own lesson plans, you
probably aren't writing.
Be sure to mention to so-and-sothe connection to their hobby,
but it's stuff that happens onthe fly and I think it is that
presence.
It's, like you said, knowingkids, it's knowing what they
(26:09):
like and what they care about,and then teachers are in a much
better position, they're muchbetter able to make those
connections, say, oh, rememberthat game you were talking about
.
This is related in this way, thewhole idea of the power of the
teacher, you know, in just theirrole and just the critical
(26:37):
nature of the ways they interactwith their students and really
in each of those schoolcommunities.
You know, I think you also feela lot of this stuff the minute
you set foot on a school campus.
If it is a supportiveenvironment, if teachers are
trusted to do their jobs and dothem well.
You know that's something Italk about with my students that
whenever they go for aninterview for their first
(27:00):
teaching job, it's not just thembeing interviewed, they are in
fact also kind of interviewingthe school and the
administration to understandwhere their thinking is.
And you know how much of thatpower is allotted to teachers
versus how much is you know, asyou, how much of that power is
allotted to teachers versus howmuch is, you know, as you said,
kind of taken away from them?
Are they shielded from policiesthat may have really rough
(27:23):
implications for kids?
You know, are they allowed tojust sort of do the magical work
of teaching?
Seth Parsons (27:29):
Yes, yeah, and
just like a teacher sets the
tone for the classroom, and justlike a teacher sets the tone
for the classroom, I've learnedand I think this is well known
is that the principal sets thetone for a school.
So I tell the pre-serviceteachers I work with the same
thing you do and I even stressthat they currently, at least in
(27:50):
our environment, there's ateacher shortage.
So they sort of hold the cards,like if you don't have a good
feeling, you can't see yourselfgetting excited at 6 am every
morning to come to this place.
Go to the next school becausethere's going to be more offers.
The teachers have the ability,especially if they're
well-prepared, knowledgeable andready to go, to find a good fit
(28:14):
that works well for their goalsand dreams and what they want
to do for the children they'regoing to teach.
Lindsay Persohn (28:22):
Yeah, I think
it is a buyer's market, so to
speak, when looking for ateaching job in a lot of spaces,
particularly in the US rightnow.
I know it's the same thing inFlorida, where I am Many of my
graduates of our program theyhave their choice of spaces and
places where they might want towork.
So, yeah, the ball is in theircourt in a lot of ways.
Seth Parsons (28:45):
Well, another note
about knowledge of students.
As we were talking, Iremembered this activity, that a
dynamite teacher, SarahBurrowbridge.
I worked closely with her whenshe was at one of the partner
sites where we had a school,university, pds relationship.
So I worked at this school forseven years and we had a great
(29:07):
relationship and she was thisone of those teachers.
That just amazes me.
You, just like man, you areknocking out of the park for
these students.
And one thing she did was shewrote Friday letters and every
Friday the students wrote her aletter telling them about their
week, what's going on in theirlives.
(29:28):
It's just a letter to MissBurrowbridge and then over the
weekend she would read them andshe would write them a letter
back.
And she did that every singleweek and talk about knowing your
kids and what's going on intheir lives, and then that was
the starting place for theinstruction and of course, she
(30:00):
was teaching state standards,but she could masterfully do it
in a way that was perfectlyappropriate for those students
that she was serving and I justremember again being in awe of
what a brilliant thing to do.
Now, not for someone who likestheir weekends, probably, but I
don't know that.
I would recommend it as a.
(30:20):
You know life, work balance isimportant, but it was a decision
she made that she did and itjust.
I could see it as a you know, acollaborator that was in there
week in and week out.
I could see the dividends.
That knowledge that she gainedfrom those letters infiltrated
the classroom and enhancedeverything she did.
Lindsay Persohn (30:43):
Well, and how
special would it feel to get to
be one of those students who has.
You know, that is such a hugecomponent of motivation is to
(31:10):
feel as though you are valuedand that you have a voice within
the space and that someonereally cares about you.
They genuinely care about whoyou are and what you want out of
your life.
And you know that's one ofthose things that, as you said
it just it pays such dividends,and I think there are so many
ways to do that.
If you don't want to write 20letters over the weekend, there
(31:31):
are other ways to accomplishthat.
I was actually thinking of adear friend of mine who teaches
kindergarten and she has a giftbox.
It's got a bow on it and ofcourse, kids want to know what's
in the box.
What's in the box, what's inthe box, and it's something she
kind of keeps up the charade fora very long time until finally.
You know she'll call them upone by one at some point
(31:53):
throughout the year and shetells them it's a picture of her
favorite student, and when theytake the lid off, there's a
mirror at the bottom, and sothey all know, you know, just
how much she cares about them,and this is someone who connects
with her students.
I've been to community eventswith her and I see her, you know
, 20 years down the road she'sgot someone who is running up to
(32:15):
her, you know, to give her agreat big hug and to just tell
her how much she's impactedtheir life.
So, yeah, I think there's somany ways to do that.
Seth Parsons (32:24):
Absolutely, and
you gave me chills with that
story.
That's one that's like oh man,like she's doing right by the
kids and isn't that so manyteachers out there doing that,
and I don't think the teachersout there doing it here, and
enough that they're changinglives like they're changing
lives.
Lindsay Persohn (32:40):
And it means so
much.
You know, it doesn't have to bea letter a weekend to really
have a strong impact on, youknow, on a child's efficacy in
themselves as a learner.
So it's just, yeah, good stuffand lots of great things
happening in so many spaces.
So, Seth, given the challengesof today's educational climate,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Seth Parsons (33:02):
Well, I hope that
it's a message I've already
relayed, but I just hopeteachers out there know that
there are fellow educators outthere that are advocating for
better policies and betterworking conditions for teachers,
because it is so difficult andit was difficult when I did it
(33:26):
back in the no Child Left Behindera and I feel like it's 100
times more difficult now.
So I want teachers to know thatthere are people that see them
and that so value them and areworking behind the scenes to try
to give them the skills,knowledge, freedom, autonomy,
(33:46):
agency and space to do theamazing work that they can do.
And we know that teaching isthe learning profession.
So no one's ever made it.
You know we're not like check.
I've made it to the top of theteaching because you get 25 new
kids next year and they're alldifferent and they all have
(34:07):
different needs and you have totry it all over again and find
out that recipe that's going towork for these students, and the
best teachers do it year in andyear out.
So in this current context we'rein, there is increasing focus
on teacher professionaldevelopment.
As I look at state legislation,a lot of it has required
(34:31):
professional learningexperiences, trainings, extra
classes and while we maydisagree about the best manner
in which we do that, I thinkteacher knowledge, as I've sort
of alluded to previously, is acentral part of being an
effective teacher.
So I like the focus onincreasing teacher knowledge and
(34:54):
that's what I do day in and dayout is.
I'm always just trying to getsmarter about this work we're
doing and you know we have themantra the kids are worth it.
You like they're worth gettingfrustrated with policies or
whatever we're frustrated withand the hard work that goes into
doing this.
The kids are worth it.
(35:14):
But the caveat I want to putout there is, while I fully
support and recognize the needof professional development, I
encourage teachers to take acritical eye development.
I encourage teachers to take acritical eye because I think a
lot of the learningopportunities or the learning
requirements that are takingplace now, the folks behind it
(35:37):
often have an agenda and toooften that agenda is financially
motivated rather than childmotivated.
And those of us who arecommitted to this work know that
it's always about the children,it's always about the youth,
it's about trying to get thosekids to enhance their learning
so they can open up doors andjoin a democracy that is
(36:02):
beneficial for all.
So helping teachers andencouraging teachers to be a
critical consumer is somethingthat I'm really promoting.
Now to see the citation thatwants to read the study, the
empirical study being referenced, because far too often books,
(36:31):
textbooks, trade books, they'rebeing slapped with this aligned
with the science of reading orscientifically based research,
but when we really dig into thescience that they're relying on,
it may be another book or notnecessarily an empirical study,
or the empirical study doesn'treally say what they say it says
(36:56):
in the citation.
So it's a tough space foreducators because they're
operating at 150 percent, andhere I am saying operating at
150%, and here I am saying, oh,go, check the reference.
But I think we have to in thistime because, like I said, a lot
of opportunities that emerge,so to speak, are not always from
(37:20):
trustworthy sources.
So I always lead with thatcaveat as I promote the power of
teacher knowledge and that's animportant piece of this
agreement.
You know, if we're going to havethis agreement, that teachers
should have the professionalautonomy and space to do what is
(37:40):
best for their students youknow David Pearson called it
professional prerogative theteachers, you should earn this
prerogative by staying up todate with current research, by
being a lifelong learner, bygetting to know your students
really really well, by knowingyour standards really really
well, knowing the curriculareally really well, and then
(38:03):
using all that knowledge thatyou're gaining.
That's the part of the bargainthat the teachers have to keep
up.
So it is a two-sided coin thatI'm advocating policymakers,
administrators, legislators thattying teachers' hands and
requiring fidelity to a scriptis not the path forward is not
(38:24):
the path forward.
At the same time, I'm turningto the educators I work with and
say be your best and, do youknow, never stop learning so you
can earn that professionalfreedom to do what's best for
students.
Lindsay Persohn (38:42):
It is a
two-sided coin, for sure, and I
think you know, as you weredescribing, that, I think that
as we, as educators, learn moreand more A) we learn that there
is still so much more to learn.
But I think also, you developthis gauge for when something
doesn't seem quite right or whenyou feel like I think part of
(39:03):
the story is missing here, and Ithink that I would also maybe
add to that that educatorsshould trust their instincts,
you know, because they do knowtheir kids.
And when you do know yourcontent as well and you see that
you're being, you know, givenmaybe a prepackaged curriculum
that doesn't quite add up, then,yeah, it's time to do some
(39:24):
digging.
It's time to start asking somereally critical questions to
find out well, how did we infact end up with this, with this
beautiful cellophane wrappedpackage delivered to our door?
Where did this come from andwho decided on this?
And, you know, is there publicinput?
And who developed it?
What's their, what's theirmotive?
So I think that those questionsare just really important and I
(39:45):
think they can in fact help usto move forward in positive and
productive ways.
Seth Parsons (39:50):
And I would even
follow that up by turning
towards the mirror and sayingthat you know we have a side of
the bargain too, as educationalresearchers and teacher
educators, that we need to stayup to date.
But also, if it's a highlystatistical study that's beyond
(40:11):
your understanding, reach out toyour local education professor
or your distant educationprofessor.
I do not mind getting emailsfrom teachers saying, hey, I'm a
little suspect of this.
Does this study?
You know, give me input on that.
You know, translate this for meLike that's what we do.
So I feel a responsibility,just like I'm encouraging
(40:31):
teachers to have thisresponsibility, to stay up to
date.
I know that we educationalresearchers, who are committed
to the teachers we serve, feelthat same responsibility to stay
knowledgeable, stay up to dateand shift your thinking when
your thinking needs to shift andadvocate where you can advocate
(40:53):
.
So I just feel like we're allin this together again, while
keeping the main thing, the mainthing, which is to help the
youth and the kids we work withto get smarter and to improve
their educational opportunities,to enhance their opportunities
in life.
Lindsay Persohn (41:11):
Fantastic, and
you're absolutely right.
I appreciate that kind of openinvitation.
You know, if you read somethingwritten by a researcher or an
author and it doesn't quite addup, then, yeah, you can reach
out to that person directly andsay you know, can you help me
understand this, or can you giveme a little bit more context?
Or you know, can you help meunderstand this, or can you give
me a little bit more context,or you know what is meant by
this?
I think that that openinvitation to follow up it's a
(41:33):
wonderful thing and I think itcan help to enrich the education
community in so many ways whenwe are connected like that.
Yeah, so, seth, I thank you somuch for your time today and I
really thank you for yourcontributions to the world of
education and your contributionsto this podcast lineup.
So, thank you so much.
Seth Parsons (41:53):
Sure thing.
Thank you for inviting me,Lindsay.
It's been fun.
Lindsay Persohn (41:58):
Dr.
Seth A.
Parsons is widely recognizedfor his work in elementary
literacy instruction, studentengagement and motivation,
adaptive teaching andmetacognitive strategy
development.
His scholarship focuses on howteachers can respond flexibly to
students' needs, promote deepcomprehension and foster
inclusive, culturally sustainingliteracy practices in K-5
(42:22):
classrooms.
His research has been publishedin many of the field's top
journals, including the Journalof Literacy Research, Review of
Educational Research,Educational Researcher, Reading
Research Quarterly, ElementarySchool Journal, The Reading
Teacher, and Literacy Researchand Instruction, including
(42:49):
Principles of Effective LiteracyInstruction, grades K-5, and
Accelerating Learning Recoveryfor All Students, both
co-authored with past ClassroomCaffeine guest, Margaret Vaughn,
and Becoming a MetacognitiveTeacher.
Seth's contributions have beenrecognized through multiple
awards and honors, including theJerry Johns Promising
Researcher Award from theAssociation of Literacy
(43:09):
Educators and Researchers, orALER.
Jerry Johns, the namesake forthat award, is also a past
Classroom Caffeine guest, theTeacher of Distinction Award at
George Mason University, andselected as an Emerging Scholar
by Phi Delta Kappa.
Seth has also served in keyleadership roles, including
president of the Association ofLiteracy Educators and
(43:30):
Researchers, executive editor ofthe Journal of Education
Research, and co-editor of theLiteracy Research Association's
Journal of Literacy Research, aswell as associate editor of
Reading and Writing Quarterly,roles which help shape the
future of literacy, scholarship,and practice.
Dr.
Seth A.
Parsons currently serves as aProfessor of Literacy in the
(43:52):
Sturtevant Center for Literacyat George Mason University,
where he teaches mentors,doctoral students and continues
his nationally recognizedresearch on effective literacy
instruction and teacherdevelopment.
You can connect with Seth onInstagram @ SethAParsons.
That's atS-E-T-H-A-P-A-R-S-O-N-S.
(44:18):
For the good of all students,Classroom Caffeine aims to
energize education research andpractice.
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(44:39):
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(45:06):
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Special thanks to the ClassroomCaffeine team, Leah Berger,
Abaya Valuru, Stephanie Bransonand Csaba Osvath.
As always, I raise my mug toyou, teachers.
Thanks for joining me.