August 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Think battery storage systems are fire hazards? The data tells a different story.
Today on the Clean Power Hour, Joe DeBellis, Global Head of Clean Energy at FireTrace, reveals shocking findings from a survey of nearly 4,000 Americans about battery storage safety. While headlines focus on rare fire incidents, 71% of Americans actually support battery energy storage technology.
Here's what you'll discover:
The surprising truth about battery fires: 89% start from electrical components, not the batteries themselves. Only 11% originate from battery cells or modules. Fire incidents have dropped 97% between 2018-2023, with just one fire per 35 gigawatts of installed capacity.
Why public opposition exists: 52% of the 29% who oppose battery projects lack basic information about the technology. Misinformation drives fear more than actual risk data.
What's inside battery containers: Beyond batteries, these systems contain HVAC equipment, power conversion systems, battery management systems, and control cabinets. Each component presents different fire risks requiring specific suppression strategies.
FireTrace's dual approach to safety: Clean agent systems protect electrical components without damaging electronics. Aerosol technology using potassium carbonate prevents thermal runaway in battery cells.
How developers can improve project approval: Proactive safety planning beats reactive measures. Early engagement with authorities having jurisdiction and communities builds trust through education.
The regulatory landscape: UL 9540, NFPA 855, and evolving safety standards are creating better frameworks for safe deployment.
The key takeaway: Focus fire prevention efforts on electrical components, not just batteries. This approach addresses 89% of actual fire risks while building community trust through education.
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LinkedIn: Joe DeBellis
Website: Firetrace
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe DeBellis (00:00):
See the headlines and get very scared about
battery energy storage projects,especially in their community.
71% of Americans, anoverwhelming majority, actually
supported the technology, and itwas really just kind of that
vocal minority that wereopposing the best sites and
diving further into that whichwe could discuss. A lot of that
opposition came from just a lackof understanding and
(00:22):
misinformation and not havingenough information about
battery, energy storage, thebenefits, the technology and the
risk factors
intro (00:30):
there are you speeding the energy transition here at
the Clean Power Hour, our hostTim Montague, bring you the best
in solar, batteries and cleantechnologies every week. Want to
go deeper into decarbonization.
We do too. We're here to helpyou understand and command the
commercial, residential andutility, solar, wind and storage
industries. So let's get to ittogether. We can speed the
(00:52):
energy transition
Tim Montague (00:56):
today on the clean power hour battery fire safety,
it's a major concern for projectdevelopers, whether you're a CNI
or utility scale developer,there's a number of issues that
we're going to dive in todaywith my guest, Joe Debellis. He
is the Global Head of cleanenergy for fire trace, and the
(01:16):
issues are four fold. Okay,public acceptance and NIMBY
nimbyism, lack ofstandardization or lack of
standardized regulations acrossjurisdictions. Need for
proactive versus reactive firesafety planning and knowledge
gaps among communities and somestakeholders. So we're going to
(01:36):
dive into all these things. I'mso thrilled to have Joe on the
show. Welcome Joe.
Joe DeBellis (01:41):
Thank you, Tim.
Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks forhaving me.
Tim Montague (01:45):
Check out all of our content at clean power
hour.com Give us a rating and areview. Follow us on YouTube,
reach out to me on LinkedIn. Ilove hearing from my listeners.
So Joe, how did you come to firetrace, and what exactly is fire
trace up to in the world?
Joe DeBellis (02:01):
Yeah, again, thanks for having me. Tim. So
I've been with fire trace nowfor about three years. I've been
in the energy industry, though,however, for about over 1515,
years now, a lot of that wasworking with utility companies
the oil and gas world for a bit,and then really focusing in on
renewable energy. So about threeyears ago, made the switch from
(02:24):
wire and cable, which was myprevious industry, into fire
trace, which is fire suppressionfire safety company and
industry. So what fire tracefocuses on is manufacturing fire
suppression solutions formultiple industries, but one of
our core industries is therenewable energy sector. So
really zeroing in on how can weprotect not only lives and
(02:44):
livelihoods but these renewableassets? So wind turbines,
battery storage containers,solar inverters, things of that
nature. So we've really put ahard press on on the renewable
energy industry, and we've beenvery successful in helping
provide solutions to ourcustomers while also keeping
safety at the top of our minds.
Tim Montague (03:03):
And you know, one of the cool things that I
learned in our pre interview Joeis that the majority of fires
related to batteries are notnecessarily because of the
battery cells themselves or themodules. There are other things
in battery containers that canbe problematic at the end of the
day. We need to improve our firesafety, and we want to be
(03:26):
installing 99.9% safe equipment.
Bar none. Period, right? Fullstop. Nobody likes fires, but
anything in the builtenvironment that has electricity
involved is a potential hazardfor fire. Electrical fires
happen all the time, and so youknow, you see the the battery
events in the news or theelectric vehicle events in the
(03:48):
news, because they're stillnovel, relatively speaking. But
we're going to get into what arethe potential problem areas when
it comes to battery containers.
What developers need to know,and I would love to, you know,
dig into some of the technicalaspects of how you guys work
(04:10):
with OEMs and other stakeholdersto develop really good
protocols. Joe, why don't youset the table a little bit you
guys have done a big survey,which is very interesting. But
what is your introduction tothis topic for our listeners?
Joe DeBellis (04:30):
Absolutely, and you kind of hit the nail on the
head previously with some ofyour intro comments there. It's
really it's trying to battlemisinformation, misinformation
and folks not being educatedenough on the technology, and so
you did mention a little bit ofthe pretty surprising statistics
that the majority of the batteryenergy storage fires that we've
(04:53):
seen in our past did notoriginate from the batteries
themselves. There are electricalcomponents. It's just the.
Inherent risk of electronicsthroughout basically every
industry that there could be afire, just the inherent risk.
And so a lot of these electricalcabinets, BMS, systems, things
that are inside of thecontainers that have that
(05:14):
inherent risk actually were theorigination of some of these
fires. So I believe it was 89%of the fires started from these
electrical components. Only 11%of the fires started from the
batteries. And so when you thinklithium ion battery, that's what
everybody kind of zeroes in on.
And I think a lot of thecommunity also hears lithium ion
batteries being installed, andthey inherently think that they
(05:35):
are risky and prone to fires,but really the majority of the
majority of the fires startedelsewhere and then propagated
over and so, you know, we didrelease a survey recently where
we polled nearly 4000 citizensacross the US. So we tried to
make it as comprehensive aspossible, covering all 50
states. And we asked certainquestions about battery, energy
(05:57):
storage. And surprisingly, Tim,what we found was, while there
are a vocal minority of folksthat see the headlines and get
very scared about battery energystorage projects, especially in
their community, 71% ofAmericans, an overwhelming
majority, actually supported thetechnology, and it was really
just kind of that vocal minoritythat were opposing the best
(06:20):
sites and diving further intothat which we could discuss, a
lot of that opposition came fromjust a lack of understanding and
misinformation and not havingenough information about
battery, energy storage, thebenefits the technology and the
risk factors there. So it waspretty overwhelmingly positive
in terms of the reviews and thepolls, but kind of wanted some
(06:41):
wanted to discuss that a littlebit with you as well. And I
think that's a good kickoff toto really paint the picture in
terms of what the communitiesare really thinking when you
take a look at a comprehensivepoll like
Tim Montague (06:53):
that. Yeah, I want to talk about the poll, but
first, let's set the table alittle more with what are the
elements of a battery system.
I'll lay out my basicunderstanding. You've got a
container, okay, often a, youknow, a NEMA four. It's, it's
out there in the weather, it'sweatherproof. It's got a space
conditioning system to maintaina, you know, reasonable
(07:17):
temperature. Batteries don'tlike to get too hot or too cold.
So there's some kind of HVACsystem. There's the batteries
themselves. The battery modulesin racks, very similar to server
racks, right? And sometimes thebatteries are in a separate
container from the PCs the powerconversion system. The power
conversion system is a rack ofinverters that are dual, two
(07:39):
directional, right? They areconverting DC to AC and AC to
DC. Unlike a solar inverter,which is unidirectional,
generally speaking, a PCS is bidirectional, but otherwise it is
a very similar device, but it'sdoing heavy lifting, and I'm
more familiar with somemanufacturers like chin power
(08:01):
systems, where they keep the PCsin a separate container from the
batteries. And then youmentioned the BMS. What other
elements of a battery system arethere?
Joe DeBellis (08:15):
No, I mean, those are the core elements, and
you're correct. So some folksare implementing some of the PCs
to control systems outside orseparated out, a lot of the
original containers, or some ofthe large energy storage
containers. They will havecontrol cabinets, electrical
cabinets in there, monitoring oralso providing inputs to, again,
(08:36):
the HVAC systems and the BMS andthings of that nature. And so
it's really a lot of thesecontrol systems that we're
seeing, as well as thecapacitors and inverters and
things of that nature, thatcould be a potential high risk
scenario. So generally, thebattery racks here, correct, are
separated out into one side ofthe container. When you're
(08:57):
trying to really maximizeefficiencies in space, there are
different elements inside ofthat container, with the control
cabinets and things of thatnature that could pose an
electrical risk.
Tim Montague (09:08):
Yeah. And I think of your comment about, well, the
majority of fires startedelsewhere than the battery
modules or cells themselves, butat the end of the day, like, if
there's a thermal event, a sparkthat then propagates to the
lithium ion materials. Lithiumis extremely reactive, and once
(09:29):
it has a thermal runaway, it ishard to stop that fire.
Obviously, you want to stopthings as early as possible, and
maybe you could give us a quickoverview of these events, so to
speak, abnormal events inside abattery container. What are the
major types of events, and howdo you? How does fire trace,
(09:53):
provide and address safety inthese systems?
Joe DeBellis (09:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so you're. Absolutely rightwhen you take a look at lithium
ion batteries, if the batteriesare compromised in a certain
way, that could prove to start acatastrophic event. So really,
taking a look at the batterycomposition in and of itself and
the structure, and ensuring thatit stays structurally sound is
most important. So we take alittle bit of a two pronged
(10:19):
approach when we look at batteryenergy storage systems. And
really one is to protect andensure that there is no event
that happens outside of thebattery rack and propagates
over. We utilize clean agentsystems, very simple systems,
very effective for electronicsin the sense that they're not
conductive, safe for theenvironment, safe for personnel.
(10:41):
So if a system does dischargeinside of a cabinet, system or
one of the electrical systemsinside of the container, it does
not fry all the electronics andpotentially cause even more
damage. So it really justeliminates the fire, dissipates
heat out of the equation andgood to go, eliminates the fire
right at the source, on theseparate side of things, when
(11:02):
you're addressing batterystorage and the chemical
composition of lithium ion, wetake a different approach there,
where we use an aerosoltechnology. And the aerosol
technology really dispenses kindof a potassium carbonate that
essentially creates freeradicals that bind to the fires
free radicals, and eliminatesthat fire chain reaction. And so
we've seen through testingmultiple different tests, that
(11:24):
when you're taking a look atearly onset fires that are
happening inside of thebatteries, that the aerosol
systems are very effective atimmediately cooling the fire,
immediately cooling thebatteries and preventing thermal
runaway. Obviously, thermalrunaway is a giant issue across
the industry. And when I saygiant issue, not that all of
these batteries are turning intothermal runaway, but when I say
(11:47):
issue, it's more so at the topof people's minds. They want to
prevent these catastrophicfires, and so using that two
pronged approach is really whatwe feel is the safest. But then
you're taking a look at abattery, energy storage
container, and really trying tobe proactive in implementing
some of these safety measures.
So outside of what we do on thefire suppression side, you know,
(12:10):
there's plenty of proactivemeasures that are taken and can
be taken in terms of earlydetection, for off gassing, or
for heat explosion proof ventinginside of the container. So
there's a lot that the industryis working to kind of not only
engineer out some of theseproblems within these battery
energy storage systems, but alsocreate a safer environment to
(12:31):
ensure that if there is anissue, it's handled
appropriately quickly andsafely.
Tim Montague (12:37):
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More awesome, I think of therebeing, if you're a manufacturer
and or a developer, it's a bothend here. Obviously the
manufacturer is dealing withregulatory bodies like UL, and
(13:42):
UL is a is a standards, a safetystandards organization, and you
have to get your product ULcertified. And then there's the
hJS of various flavors, and thenthere's the public. When you
think of the landscape in the UStoday, when it comes to CNI and
(14:04):
utility scale, batterydevelopment, project
development, is there a weaklink in that chain?
Joe DeBellis (14:14):
That's a great question. Tim, so I wouldn't
necessarily say that there is aweak link in the chain. I think
that there's a lot that theindustry is doing, and that's
kind of across the spectrumbetween, you know, OEMs,
developers, end users, as wellas folks that are on the boards
and working groups of thesestandards, the hJS do a lot, the
(14:36):
local communities do a lot totry and ensure safety. I think
the weak link, so to speak, whenwe take a look at it, is more so
the communication across theboard. So it's trying to get
everybody on the same page. Ithink that's a little bit of
what created, a little bit ofthe stagger when battery, energy
storage, really started takingoff and we started implementing
(14:57):
these projects, the fact thatdifferent regions. Missions
across the US, different states,different hJS. They all had
their thoughts. They all haddifferent standards that they
were looking at. They all haddifferent safety measures that
they were taking a look at. Andthe problem was everybody was
doing things a little bitdifferently to start. And I
think once we start reallyworking as a group, and started
(15:17):
working as a group, I thinkeverybody's understanding that
we need to figure out a way toopen up that communication a
little bit better andstandardize what we're doing so
that it's the safest, mostefficient, most effective way to
implement some of theseprojects, and that also goes
towards the public as well. Soit's not only what the industry
is doing, it's how do we feedthat information and correct the
(15:40):
misinformation over to thepublic. And so how do we educate
folks to understand exactly whatthe technology is doing, the
benefits of the technology, andthen also a lot of the safety
measures that we're implementingacross the country?
Tim Montague (15:54):
And in general, would you say the safety
standards of the UL safetystandards are adequate.
Joe DeBellis (16:03):
I think they are adequate in the sense that we
are certainly implementing theright path, I think, to create a
safe environment for thecommunity and for these
projects. And I think, you know,you take a look at NFPA 855, and
then ul 9540 and and some of thetest methods and risk based fire
(16:24):
suppression standards thatthey're putting forward, I think
all of it is really taking in alot of the information that
we've uncovered over the lastfew years, and a lot of these
working groups are trying to puttogether essentially the best
plan forward to create a safeenvironment for These projects
to thrive, but I do think thatthere's a lot happening,
especially like within UL, interms of the test methods for
(16:47):
thermal runaway and some ofthese batteries. And how do we
get these batteries structurallysound so that when they go
through some of this testing,you know, we're engineering out
a lot of the problems, but thenalso taking a look at our
experience in the past. Youknow, you know, you take a look
at some of these large firesthat involved energy storage or
lithium ion batteries, and whatdid we learn from that? You
know, was it a fault of thebattery themselves, or was it an
(17:11):
issue with water ingress orbuilding structure, or whatever
the case may be that some ofthese forensics have uncovered
after we've evaluated some ofthese issues in the past, and so
I think it's a combination ofinformation that we're
constantly uploading and feedingto get these things just right.
Tim Montague (17:29):
And when it comes to authorities having
jurisdiction, there are variousflavors. You know, there's the
cities and counties, they arethe ultimate authority, but
there's also fire districts andfire departments. And often
times the hj, you know, the cityor the county will will kick
things over to the firedepartment, you know, because
(17:52):
they're the ones who have toreally clean up the mess if
there is a mess. But becausebatteries are still relatively
new in the landscape. Many ofthese authorities don't have
that much experience, and sothey're reliant on, you know,
whatever information they'regleaning. I mean, I don't know
(18:13):
if what Joe, when you thinkabout how a HJ is, are preparing
for this the onslaught ofdevelopment right that's
happening in certain parts ofthe country, in California, in
Texas, here in Illinois, in NewYork, in Massachusetts, there
are certain states right, whereit's game on for both CNI and
(18:37):
utility scale batteries, not tonot to mention residential How
are HJ is preparing to havethoughtful responses to these
applications,
Joe DeBellis (18:49):
you know, and we speak a lot with hJS across the
country, and you know, we'vebeen involved In many
organizations where firemarshals have created or started
almost, I would say educationalsessions or seminars. They'll
have working groups wherethey'll bring folks in to learn
(19:10):
about different technologies oror how to stay on top of some of
these projects. And I do thinkhJS are working to fully educate
themselves at the same time. Ialso think that's part of the
responsibility that that we haveas manufacturers of fire
suppression, or people that areevaluating fire risk, as well as
the developers. Right? If youtake a look at the planning
(19:31):
phase of a lot of theseprojects, ensuring that the
local fire services, hJS firemarshals, ensuring that they're
involved in the planning and thedesign of these battery storage
sites. It's it's prettyessential to not only comply,
you know, with with differentstandards, but to make sure that
you're getting that communitysupport. And then the fire
(19:51):
marshals and hJS are fullyeducated on what's going in and
what these safety measures are.
And so I think, with thenotoriety or a lot of. The Press
that some of the issues thathave happened with energy
storage throughout the years,obviously, they've made big
headlines, but I think a lot ofHJ is out there taking a look at
that and trying to understandand educate themselves to say,
(20:12):
hey, if this project's goinginto our community, how do we
implement these safety measures?
What are going to be ourstandard protocols for safety.
If there is an issue, what's theproper spacing of these
containers? You know? How can weput our input into this so that
if there is an issue, that notonly is the community safe, but
these folks that are the firstresponders are also going to be
(20:34):
safe and putting out the fire ormitigating the issues that
happen with it. So I do thinkthere's a lot of that education
that's happening throughoutdifferent communities and hJS
and fire marshals,
Tim Montague (20:48):
and when you think about improving the success rate
of getting projects permittedfrom a development perspective,
do you see a major difference Inhow developers need to
communicate with the publicversus hJS.
Joe DeBellis (21:05):
You know? I don't, I don't necessarily think
there's a difference in betweenthe communication between the
public and the hJS. I think it'smore so being proactive and
getting everybody together,right? I think the the public
relies on information from thehJS and the fire marshals in
their community, and then thedeveloper, their responsibility
is to educate and make sure thateverybody has a level playing
(21:28):
field of of understanding. Andso, you know, kind of going back
into the survey that I mentionedbefore, that we could dive into
in a little bit. But one of thethings that really stood out was
that of that small minority,that 29% of the Americans that
opposed energy storage, anoverwhelming majority of those
(21:48):
folks, 52% of them, actually didnot have any information about
energy storage. So that was whythey were essentially scared of
having these in their community.
So they opposed it because ofthe headlines that they've seen
in the news, but 52% half ofthese folks really didn't have
any sort of information aboutbattery storage. So it was one
of those things where if thedevelopers can bring together
(22:10):
the hJS fire marshals as well asthe community during these
planning sessions, and haveeverybody kind of understand
what they're doing and what theproject is about the technology,
how energy storage works, therelatively low risk that energy
storage does have on on some ofthese incidents, it's better for
everybody. So I don't thinkthere's a different approach
(22:33):
between the communication. Ithink it's more so kind of
bringing everybody together, ifthat makes sense.
Tim Montague (22:40):
And let's we're going to get into the survey,
but I am struggling a little bitto understand exactly fire
traces role. Obviously, you havea technical solution. So you
have technology that getsinstalled by manufacturers and
integrators in these batterycontainers, but you also are
(23:02):
serving as a consultant todevelopers. Is that right?
Joe DeBellis (23:07):
Absolutely. Yeah, we, we certainly do that on on
occasion. So we will work withso our expertise is fire and
fire suppression right at the atthe end of the day, what we do
is try to make sure that folksare protecting themselves, their
livelihood as well as theirassets. And so we try to create
(23:28):
a safe environment, especiallywith these renewable energy
projects. And many times, we'llwork side by side with
developers to not only discussfire risk and ensure that they
fully understand the technologythat is going into their planned
projects, but also helping themwith, how do we communicate to
the community? So if there is apermit hearing or there is a
(23:51):
planning session with thecommunity, how do we get people
comfortable with having theseprojects essentially in their
backyards, right? You mentioned,you know, the the opposition
that a lot of folks have, and Ithink again, kind of going back
to that misinformation side ofthings. It's, you know, we are
the fire experts, but having aclear understanding that we
could promote over to thedevelopers, and then developers
(24:12):
can discuss with the communityto say, Hey, these are the
mitigation strategies that we'reputting into our project. And
it's, you know, we're just onthe fire side of things, but
there's plenty of other thingsin regards to safety that can be
talked about with thesecommunities. And so, you know,
you take a look at some folksthat are possibly concerned
about environmental impacts fireand safety. These are all
(24:35):
discussions that can happen atthe planning phase. We on the
fire side of things, as fireexperts, will certainly work
with developers, work with thecommunity to ensure that
everybody has a clearunderstanding on the fire risk,
how it's being mitigated, andreally, essentially, hopefully
soothe concerns, to understandthat these risks are relatively
low when you have the propermitigation strategies.
Tim Montague (24:58):
So let's talk about the survey. What was the
impetus behind the survey? Whowas it sent to? And let's get
into some of the results.
Joe DeBellis (25:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim, so the impetus really forus, it was trying to get a clear
understanding. You know, as wejust mentioned, we do work with
developers and other folksduring the planning phase to
discuss some of these projectswith the communities. And we've
seen, you know, differentcommunities that have had, I
would say, a little bit ofbacklash to some of these
(25:28):
projects or just generalconcerns. And so, you know, over
the past couple of years, we'veseen, actually, I think in the
last year, there were about nineprojects energy storage related,
that were delayed and or pushedoff or canceled due to community
concerns. And at the end of theday, we understand right the
community has a right to beconcerned about the safety of
(25:51):
their community, of theirpeople. But at the same time, we
started really wanting to digdown into what was the root
cause of that, and weessentially came up with the
idea to issue a survey acrossthe US, and we polled nearly
4000 citizens across all 50states. So we wanted it to be
(26:11):
very comprehensive. And asmentioned previously, these
results actually surprised usquite a bit. You hear about a
lot of this opposition, you seethe headlines in the news, but
71% of Americans actuallysupport energy storage. They
supported the technology. It wasreally the 29% that we seem to
understand is going to be themore vocal minority, and they
(26:33):
oppose energy storage sites. Soit was an overwhelming majority
that did support it. But when wedrill down with further
questions into the 29% of peoplethat opposed it, we understood
that it really came down to alot of misinformation about
energy storage technology,people zeroing in on some of
these high profile, isolatedenergy storage fires, you know,
(26:55):
in California, New York,Arizona, and then just a lack of
knowledge regarding energystorage and technology in
general. 52% of that, 29% soabout half of the folks that
opposed it didn't have anyknowledge about energy storage
at all. They were just kind ofzeroing in on some of the the
past headlines. And so, youknow, we wanted to make sure
(27:17):
that we had a clear andcomprehensive survey that really
kind of let us understand alittle bit more of where the
community was heading, and thatcould help us help the
developers as well. And so, youknow, one thing that we also
really took from the results aswell was when we started asking
questions about if people were alittle bit more aware of the
(27:39):
benefits of energy storage.
Would that sway their opinion,or would that make them more
comfortable? So when we took alook at the survey results, 52%
of the US citizens that wereopposed said that they would
actually be more comfortablewith energy storage sites if
they had a clear understandingof the benefits. So not only
(28:00):
just the technology, but alsothe benefits. And so, you know,
you drill further into that, andyou take a look at, you know,
better, reliable power, cheaperelectricity bills, economic
benefits, more jobs in thecommunity. And so it was an
interesting thing to read, tounderstand that a lot of
citizens, if they just had alittle bit more education, and
we wiped out some of thatmisinformation, could easily
(28:21):
sway from, you know, a somebodythat's opposed to a project in
their backyard to, you knowwhat, this is actually pretty
good for the community. There'srelatively low risk. So yeah, it
might be something that we wouldsupport.
Tim Montague (28:31):
So 4000 people were surveyed. How did you
collect this? Those responses,and how many states are
represented in that in thoseresults.
Joe DeBellis (28:42):
So we polled nearly 4000 citizens across all
50 states, so we had a samplefrom each state. Okay, we did
use a third party so it wasn'trelated to to fire trace. So we
hired a third party. I'll haveto get you the name of the
census group, but they actuallyperformed the survey on our
behalf. We did help instructuring the questions, but
(29:05):
we did not sway the questions,and it was really just kind of
black or white. Do you support?
What would help you support? Orwhy would you oppose it? And so
we did poll across all 50states, and the reason we did
that was to kind of get a betterunderstanding and a pure sample
across all the regions in theUS. So there might be some folks
that don't have a lot ofrenewable energy projects
happening in there. Yeah,
Tim Montague (29:27):
that's the first thing that strikes me, though,
is is obviously somejurisdictions have a lot more
experience. Southern California,for example, do the results
demonstrate that in some regard,the the exposure that the public
has to CNI or utility storage isgoing to be quite biased
(29:50):
geographically, right? They'renot. Those projects aren't
happening everywhere. They areconcentrated in certain states.
So you know, when you pull outTexas and. California and New
York and Massachusetts andIllinois. Do the results differ
in some work, some regard,
Joe DeBellis (30:07):
you know, and not as much as you would, you would
think. And we thought the samething. So we took a look and
kind of drilled down a littlebit more into the results,
because we thought the samething. Maybe it was a lot of the
potentially favorable folks thatwere concentrated in these
areas, or reverse certainly. Andwe could share a little bit more
of those results with you, I'llhave to drill into exactly the
(30:30):
percentages there. But we diddive into that, and we did not
see as big of a correlation aswe would have thought. Where we
do think that a lot of thepotential lack of information
may be happening is some of theareas where maybe they're not
too prone to some of thesetechnologies and so, but, you
know, we did drill into that,and it was something that we
(30:52):
kept in mind. But also we wantto have kind of a clear picture
and really survey the entire US,because a lot of these projects
are kind of shifting around.
There are different areas thatare in process of of
development. But really, it wasone of those things where we
want to get a full picture ofthe US in general. And that's
why we did all 50 states.
Tim Montague (31:10):
I mean, ultimately, and there's and
there's emerging data on this,solar and batteries and wind
make for a more reliable grid,and the grid, you know, you can
think of a battery as a sponge,right? It receives energy, it
stores it, and then it releasesit instantaneously on demand,
which is a lovely thing ifyou're a grid operator, right?
(31:32):
There are constantly strugglingto balance the grid as demand
rises and shrinks, and so themore renewables, the more
batteries you want, andrenewables are the cheapest
source of power, and so 90% ofnew power plants on the grid now
are wind and and solar. And so Iguess this is also a message
(31:58):
that we need to drive home withthe public and authorities
having jurisdiction. Obviously,the federal government doesn't
really appreciate this rightnow. They're trying to stick a
stick in the eye of renewables.
But trust me, grid operatorsunderstand this, and they are
going to continue to developwind, solar and battery
(32:19):
projects. I
Joe DeBellis (32:21):
agree there, yeah, I was just gonna say, I agree,
Tim, I think it's, it's vitalfor us, especially we take a
look at, like, the the net zerotargets that we have, battery
storage is a key component tothat. And then, you know, you
take a look at the renewableenergy industry, but it's one
thing to look at wind and solar,but then you start looking at
just the development across thegrid in terms of, you know, some
(32:42):
of these data centers and, youknow, with AI coming on board,
and how do we, how do westructure the the grid to be
sound on that? And, you know,battery storage is going to be
something that is, is kind ofadded across different micro
grids and different developingcities. So I think it's one of
those things where it's, it'sgoing to be a vital technology.
It is a vital technology. But toyour point, you know, we just
got to make sure that make surethat folks understand that it's
(33:04):
going to be a key part of ourour success moving forward for a
sustainable future.
Tim Montague (33:09):
Hey guys, are you a residential solar installer
doing light commercial butwanting to scale into large CNI
solar? I'm Tim Montague. I'vedeveloped over 150 megawatts of
commercial solar, and I'vesolved the problem that you're
having you don't know what toolsand technologies you need in
order to successfully close 100KW to megawatt scale projects.
(33:34):
I've developed a commercialsolar accelerator to help
installers exactly like you.
Just go to clean power hour.comclick on strategy and book a
call today. It's totally freewith no obligation. Thanks for
being a listener. I reallyappreciate you listening to the
pod, and I'm Tim Montague. Let'sgrow solar and storage. Go to
clean power hour and clickstrategy today. Thanks so much.
(33:57):
Yeah, yeah. So there's a fewpoints of in our final few
minutes here together thatemerged from this research
you've done that developers andit's a and OEMs, it's a both.
And you know, really can learnfrom you mentioned focus on cost
(34:17):
savings, reliability and jobcreation, those are the goods
right that these projects areproviding, and they're very
important. And then addressingenvironmental and safety
concerns with transparency, no,no aspect of the built
environment comes without anyrisk or impact. Let's be frank.
Okay, there are risks. Any kindof a building has risks, but
(34:40):
there they can be mitigated,right? And we can integrate
these products into the builtenvironment responsibly, safely
and reliably. Now you there'stwo others here, though, that
I'd like to shine a light onshifting public opinion. So by
reducing fire risks, how high isthe fire risk, and what do you
(35:03):
think developers and OEMs can doto further reduce fire risks?
Joe DeBellis (35:13):
So the fire risk in general, if you take a look
at energy storage, you knowit's, it's, I think it's the
attention grabbing headlinesthat really scared a lot of
folks, and I think created moreso of a perception issue into
how prevalent the risk is. Youknow, we discussed EPRI
(35:33):
releasing that report. About 89%of the fire starting elsewhere,
outside of the batteries, andpropagating over every also
released a study, which was, Ithought, very informative. But
the data showed that between2018 and 2023 energy storage
fire incidents dropped by nearly97% they were rare to begin
(35:54):
with, but they dropped by nearly97% and that demonstrates you
know, that the fire starting bylithium ion batteries are rare
in installations. If you take alook at the entire landscape of
35 gigawatts of batteries thatwe have installed, there's one
fire, or, excuse me, there's onefire in every 35 gigawatts of
batteries that are installedacross, you know, all of the
(36:16):
gigawatts that we have outthere. So I think the EPRI data
really kind of spoke to itselfand proves that the technology
is relatively safe with withevery installment, so they don't
pose a very significant firerisk to local communities.
However, there is that inherentrisk that you just mentioned,
and I think that's just naturalwith any sort of development or
project, especially when you'redealing with electronics, and so
(36:39):
I think being proactive andmitigating those risks in the
sense of, you know, it's onething to install a system and
then think about safetyafterwards, and then you start
retrofitting a lot of thesesafety measures into it, but
going into the design withsafety in mind, and eliminating
some of these safety fires willhelp you engineer out a lot of
(37:00):
these issues, and then justprepare for potential risks and
the worst. So I think it's thatproactive approach that
developers and OEMs could taketo say, Hey, this is a great
technology that we have. Thesebatteries are are sound, but
let's implement some of thesemitigation techniques that we
have, whether it be, you know,off gas sensors, heat detection,
(37:21):
fire suppression, all of thosethings that could combine into a
great package to develop areally safe and robust
technology.
Tim Montague (37:30):
Yeah, check out episode 243, of the Clean Power
Hour. The title of that episodeis ensuring safety in grid scale
battery systems with Dr Zhang,ye of CPS America, and Ryan
Mayfield of Mayfield renewables,and we go deep into ul 9540 and
ul 9540 A. So that's a greatresource for you listeners. And
(37:54):
then Joe, there's one finalpoint here. Maybe it's two final
points. Okay? So we can andshould reduce fire risks, okay?
And I guess we can and shouldalso sway public opinion, I
(38:16):
guess, in the greater scheme ofthings is, is it simply a both?
And these are, these are bothequally important, or is there
one, one of those two thatdevelopers really need to get
better at first?
Joe DeBellis (38:32):
I think it's certainly, let's, let's tackle
the problem first and developwhat we're going to do and the
solutions that we're going totake for these projects. And so
I think that's, that's kind ofstep number one, so that the
next step following closelybehind is that we could educate
the community and the public onthese measures that we've taken.
And so I think it's, it'sunderstanding what we're going
(38:54):
to do for the project, thesafety measures that we're
implementing, and then havingthat discussion with the
community to sway their opinion,and again, the majority of them,
based on our survey results, arelikely in favor of these
projects, but the folks that areconcerned, there needs to be a
clear line of communication tosay, hey, we understand your
concerns. Here's what we'redoing to battle those risks and
(39:15):
really get them more comfortablewith the technology and the
project. It's it's really notsupposed to be a us versus them
type conversation. It's, let'sall get on board. This is a
great thing for our community,great thing for our future, for
the environment, and we're doingthis really to kind of help out
the world. And so it's one ofthose things where I think it's
that communication, butdefinitely tackling that problem
(39:37):
and understanding what you'regoing to do as an OEM or a
developer, upfront andproactively so that we could
discuss that with the communityto ease some of those concerns.
Well,
Tim Montague (39:47):
unfortunately, we're out of time. I'm going to
put some of these results in theshow notes, and from your
survey, I really, I reallyappreciate the information that
you're putting out there. You.
And Joe, how can our listenersfind you?
Joe DeBellis (40:03):
Yeah, no. Tim, again, appreciate you having me,
but yeah, our listeners couldreach out to me. I'm on
LinkedIn. If you also go to thefire trace website, there's a
lot of different areas that youcould contact someone from our
team. We have a very robusttechnical team that could help
you out with any questions youmay have about fire risks, you
could reach out to me directlyvia LinkedIn. So I welcome that,
(40:27):
and we're always here, reallyjust to even share information.
If you just have questionsconcerning different projects or
technologies and fire risk, firesafety, fire suppression
techniques, please feel free toreach out. We're always
available.
Tim Montague (40:42):
Yeah, there's a wealth of information on your
website. So check out firetraces website. We'll put a link
in the show notes to that. Checkout all of our content at clean
power hour.com. Please give us arating and a review on Apple or
Spotify. Follow us on YouTubeand reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I love hearing from mylisteners. With that, I'll say
(41:03):
thank you so much. Joe Debellis,Global Head of clean energy for
fire trace. I'm Tim Montague,let's grow solar and storage.
Thanks, Joe.
Joe DeBellis (41:12):
Thank you, Tim. I appreciate it. You.
See the headlines and get very scared about
battery energy storage projects,especially in their community.
71% of Americans, anoverwhelming majority, actually
supported the technology, and itwas really just kind of that
vocal minority that wereopposing the best sites and
diving further into that whichwe could discuss. A lot of that
opposition came from just a lackof understanding and
(00:22):
misinformation and not havingenough information about
battery, energy storage, thebenefits, the technology and the
risk factors
intro (00:30):
there are you speeding the energy transition here at
the Clean Power Hour, our hostTim Montague, bring you the best
in solar, batteries and cleantechnologies every week. Want to
go deeper into decarbonization.
We do too. We're here to helpyou understand and command the
commercial, residential andutility, solar, wind and storage
industries. So let's get to ittogether. We can speed the
(00:52):
energy transition
Tim Montague (00:56):
today on the clean power hour battery fire safety,
it's a major concern for projectdevelopers, whether you're a CNI
or utility scale developer,there's a number of issues that
we're going to dive in todaywith my guest, Joe Debellis. He
is the Global Head of cleanenergy for fire trace, and the
(01:16):
issues are four fold. Okay,public acceptance and NIMBY
nimbyism, lack ofstandardization or lack of
standardized regulations acrossjurisdictions. Need for
proactive versus reactive firesafety planning and knowledge
gaps among communities and somestakeholders. So we're going to
(01:36):
dive into all these things. I'mso thrilled to have Joe on the
show. Welcome Joe.
Joe DeBellis (01:41):
Thank you, Tim.
Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks forhaving me.
Tim Montague (01:45):
Check out all of our content at clean power
hour.com Give us a rating and areview. Follow us on YouTube,
reach out to me on LinkedIn. Ilove hearing from my listeners.
So Joe, how did you come to firetrace, and what exactly is fire
trace up to in the world?
Joe DeBellis (02:01):
Yeah, again, thanks for having me. Tim. So
I've been with fire trace nowfor about three years. I've been
in the energy industry, though,however, for about over 1515,
years now, a lot of that wasworking with utility companies
the oil and gas world for a bit,and then really focusing in on
renewable energy. So about threeyears ago, made the switch from
(02:24):
wire and cable, which was myprevious industry, into fire
trace, which is fire suppressionfire safety company and
industry. So what fire tracefocuses on is manufacturing fire
suppression solutions formultiple industries, but one of
our core industries is therenewable energy sector. So
really zeroing in on how can weprotect not only lives and
(02:44):
livelihoods but these renewableassets? So wind turbines,
battery storage containers,solar inverters, things of that
nature. So we've really put ahard press on on the renewable
energy industry, and we've beenvery successful in helping
provide solutions to ourcustomers while also keeping
safety at the top of our minds.
Tim Montague (03:03):
And you know, one of the cool things that I
learned in our pre interview Joeis that the majority of fires
related to batteries are notnecessarily because of the
battery cells themselves or themodules. There are other things
in battery containers that canbe problematic at the end of the
day. We need to improve our firesafety, and we want to be
(03:26):
installing 99.9% safe equipment.
Bar none. Period, right? Fullstop. Nobody likes fires, but
anything in the builtenvironment that has electricity
involved is a potential hazardfor fire. Electrical fires
happen all the time, and so youknow, you see the the battery
events in the news or theelectric vehicle events in the
(03:48):
news, because they're stillnovel, relatively speaking. But
we're going to get into what arethe potential problem areas when
it comes to battery containers.
What developers need to know,and I would love to, you know,
dig into some of the technicalaspects of how you guys work
(04:10):
with OEMs and other stakeholdersto develop really good
protocols. Joe, why don't youset the table a little bit you
guys have done a big survey,which is very interesting. But
what is your introduction tothis topic for our listeners?
Joe DeBellis (04:30):
Absolutely, and you kind of hit the nail on the
head previously with some ofyour intro comments there. It's
really it's trying to battlemisinformation, misinformation
and folks not being educatedenough on the technology, and so
you did mention a little bit ofthe pretty surprising statistics
that the majority of the batteryenergy storage fires that we've
(04:53):
seen in our past did notoriginate from the batteries
themselves. There are electricalcomponents. It's just the.
Inherent risk of electronicsthroughout basically every
industry that there could be afire, just the inherent risk.
And so a lot of these electricalcabinets, BMS, systems, things
that are inside of thecontainers that have that
(05:14):
inherent risk actually were theorigination of some of these
fires. So I believe it was 89%of the fires started from these
electrical components. Only 11%of the fires started from the
batteries. And so when you thinklithium ion battery, that's what
everybody kind of zeroes in on.
And I think a lot of thecommunity also hears lithium ion
batteries being installed, andthey inherently think that they
(05:35):
are risky and prone to fires,but really the majority of the
majority of the fires startedelsewhere and then propagated
over and so, you know, we didrelease a survey recently where
we polled nearly 4000 citizensacross the US. So we tried to
make it as comprehensive aspossible, covering all 50
states. And we asked certainquestions about battery, energy
(05:57):
storage. And surprisingly, Tim,what we found was, while there
are a vocal minority of folksthat see the headlines and get
very scared about battery energystorage projects, especially in
their community, 71% ofAmericans, an overwhelming
majority, actually supported thetechnology, and it was really
just kind of that vocal minoritythat were opposing the best
(06:20):
sites and diving further intothat which we could discuss, a
lot of that opposition came fromjust a lack of understanding and
misinformation and not havingenough information about
battery, energy storage, thebenefits the technology and the
risk factors there. So it waspretty overwhelmingly positive
in terms of the reviews and thepolls, but kind of wanted some
(06:41):
wanted to discuss that a littlebit with you as well. And I
think that's a good kickoff toto really paint the picture in
terms of what the communitiesare really thinking when you
take a look at a comprehensivepoll like
Tim Montague (06:53):
that. Yeah, I want to talk about the poll, but
first, let's set the table alittle more with what are the
elements of a battery system.
I'll lay out my basicunderstanding. You've got a
container, okay, often a, youknow, a NEMA four. It's, it's
out there in the weather, it'sweatherproof. It's got a space
conditioning system to maintaina, you know, reasonable
(07:17):
temperature. Batteries don'tlike to get too hot or too cold.
So there's some kind of HVACsystem. There's the batteries
themselves. The battery modulesin racks, very similar to server
racks, right? And sometimes thebatteries are in a separate
container from the PCs the powerconversion system. The power
conversion system is a rack ofinverters that are dual, two
(07:39):
directional, right? They areconverting DC to AC and AC to
DC. Unlike a solar inverter,which is unidirectional,
generally speaking, a PCS is bidirectional, but otherwise it is
a very similar device, but it'sdoing heavy lifting, and I'm
more familiar with somemanufacturers like chin power
(08:01):
systems, where they keep the PCsin a separate container from the
batteries. And then youmentioned the BMS. What other
elements of a battery system arethere?
Joe DeBellis (08:15):
No, I mean, those are the core elements, and
you're correct. So some folksare implementing some of the PCs
to control systems outside orseparated out, a lot of the
original containers, or some ofthe large energy storage
containers. They will havecontrol cabinets, electrical
cabinets in there, monitoring oralso providing inputs to, again,
(08:36):
the HVAC systems and the BMS andthings of that nature. And so
it's really a lot of thesecontrol systems that we're
seeing, as well as thecapacitors and inverters and
things of that nature, thatcould be a potential high risk
scenario. So generally, thebattery racks here, correct, are
separated out into one side ofthe container. When you're
(08:57):
trying to really maximizeefficiencies in space, there are
different elements inside ofthat container, with the control
cabinets and things of thatnature that could pose an
electrical risk.
Tim Montague (09:08):
Yeah. And I think of your comment about, well, the
majority of fires startedelsewhere than the battery
modules or cells themselves, butat the end of the day, like, if
there's a thermal event, a sparkthat then propagates to the
lithium ion materials. Lithiumis extremely reactive, and once
(09:29):
it has a thermal runaway, it ishard to stop that fire.
Obviously, you want to stopthings as early as possible, and
maybe you could give us a quickoverview of these events, so to
speak, abnormal events inside abattery container. What are the
major types of events, and howdo you? How does fire trace,
(09:53):
provide and address safety inthese systems?
Joe DeBellis (09:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so you're. Absolutely rightwhen you take a look at lithium
ion batteries, if the batteriesare compromised in a certain
way, that could prove to start acatastrophic event. So really,
taking a look at the batterycomposition in and of itself and
the structure, and ensuring thatit stays structurally sound is
most important. So we take alittle bit of a two pronged
(10:19):
approach when we look at batteryenergy storage systems. And
really one is to protect andensure that there is no event
that happens outside of thebattery rack and propagates
over. We utilize clean agentsystems, very simple systems,
very effective for electronicsin the sense that they're not
conductive, safe for theenvironment, safe for personnel.
(10:41):
So if a system does dischargeinside of a cabinet, system or
one of the electrical systemsinside of the container, it does
not fry all the electronics andpotentially cause even more
damage. So it really justeliminates the fire, dissipates
heat out of the equation andgood to go, eliminates the fire
right at the source, on theseparate side of things, when
(11:02):
you're addressing batterystorage and the chemical
composition of lithium ion, wetake a different approach there,
where we use an aerosoltechnology. And the aerosol
technology really dispenses kindof a potassium carbonate that
essentially creates freeradicals that bind to the fires
free radicals, and eliminatesthat fire chain reaction. And so
we've seen through testingmultiple different tests, that
(11:24):
when you're taking a look atearly onset fires that are
happening inside of thebatteries, that the aerosol
systems are very effective atimmediately cooling the fire,
immediately cooling thebatteries and preventing thermal
runaway. Obviously, thermalrunaway is a giant issue across
the industry. And when I saygiant issue, not that all of
these batteries are turning intothermal runaway, but when I say
(11:47):
issue, it's more so at the topof people's minds. They want to
prevent these catastrophicfires, and so using that two
pronged approach is really whatwe feel is the safest. But then
you're taking a look at abattery, energy storage
container, and really trying tobe proactive in implementing
some of these safety measures.
So outside of what we do on thefire suppression side, you know,
(12:10):
there's plenty of proactivemeasures that are taken and can
be taken in terms of earlydetection, for off gassing, or
for heat explosion proof ventinginside of the container. So
there's a lot that the industryis working to kind of not only
engineer out some of theseproblems within these battery
energy storage systems, but alsocreate a safer environment to
(12:31):
ensure that if there is anissue, it's handled
appropriately quickly andsafely.
Tim Montague (12:37):
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More awesome, I think of therebeing, if you're a manufacturer
and or a developer, it's a bothend here. Obviously the
manufacturer is dealing withregulatory bodies like UL, and
(13:42):
UL is a is a standards, a safetystandards organization, and you
have to get your product ULcertified. And then there's the
hJS of various flavors, and thenthere's the public. When you
think of the landscape in the UStoday, when it comes to CNI and
(14:04):
utility scale, batterydevelopment, project
development, is there a weaklink in that chain?
Joe DeBellis (14:14):
That's a great question. Tim, so I wouldn't
necessarily say that there is aweak link in the chain. I think
that there's a lot that theindustry is doing, and that's
kind of across the spectrumbetween, you know, OEMs,
developers, end users, as wellas folks that are on the boards
and working groups of thesestandards, the hJS do a lot, the
(14:36):
local communities do a lot totry and ensure safety. I think
the weak link, so to speak, whenwe take a look at it, is more so
the communication across theboard. So it's trying to get
everybody on the same page. Ithink that's a little bit of
what created, a little bit ofthe stagger when battery, energy
storage, really started takingoff and we started implementing
(14:57):
these projects, the fact thatdifferent regions. Missions
across the US, different states,different hJS. They all had
their thoughts. They all haddifferent standards that they
were looking at. They all haddifferent safety measures that
they were taking a look at. Andthe problem was everybody was
doing things a little bitdifferently to start. And I
think once we start reallyworking as a group, and started
(15:17):
working as a group, I thinkeverybody's understanding that
we need to figure out a way toopen up that communication a
little bit better andstandardize what we're doing so
that it's the safest, mostefficient, most effective way to
implement some of theseprojects, and that also goes
towards the public as well. Soit's not only what the industry
is doing, it's how do we feedthat information and correct the
(15:40):
misinformation over to thepublic. And so how do we educate
folks to understand exactly whatthe technology is doing, the
benefits of the technology, andthen also a lot of the safety
measures that we're implementingacross the country?
Tim Montague (15:54):
And in general, would you say the safety
standards of the UL safetystandards are adequate.
Joe DeBellis (16:03):
I think they are adequate in the sense that we
are certainly implementing theright path, I think, to create a
safe environment for thecommunity and for these
projects. And I think, you know,you take a look at NFPA 855, and
then ul 9540 and and some of thetest methods and risk based fire
(16:24):
suppression standards thatthey're putting forward, I think
all of it is really taking in alot of the information that
we've uncovered over the lastfew years, and a lot of these
working groups are trying to puttogether essentially the best
plan forward to create a safeenvironment for These projects
to thrive, but I do think thatthere's a lot happening,
especially like within UL, interms of the test methods for
(16:47):
thermal runaway and some ofthese batteries. And how do we
get these batteries structurallysound so that when they go
through some of this testing,you know, we're engineering out
a lot of the problems, but thenalso taking a look at our
experience in the past. Youknow, you know, you take a look
at some of these large firesthat involved energy storage or
lithium ion batteries, and whatdid we learn from that? You
know, was it a fault of thebattery themselves, or was it an
(17:11):
issue with water ingress orbuilding structure, or whatever
the case may be that some ofthese forensics have uncovered
after we've evaluated some ofthese issues in the past, and so
I think it's a combination ofinformation that we're
constantly uploading and feedingto get these things just right.
Tim Montague (17:29):
And when it comes to authorities having
jurisdiction, there are variousflavors. You know, there's the
cities and counties, they arethe ultimate authority, but
there's also fire districts andfire departments. And often
times the hj, you know, the cityor the county will will kick
things over to the firedepartment, you know, because
(17:52):
they're the ones who have toreally clean up the mess if
there is a mess. But becausebatteries are still relatively
new in the landscape. Many ofthese authorities don't have
that much experience, and sothey're reliant on, you know,
whatever information they'regleaning. I mean, I don't know
(18:13):
if what Joe, when you thinkabout how a HJ is, are preparing
for this the onslaught ofdevelopment right that's
happening in certain parts ofthe country, in California, in
Texas, here in Illinois, in NewYork, in Massachusetts, there
are certain states right, whereit's game on for both CNI and
(18:37):
utility scale batteries, not tonot to mention residential How
are HJ is preparing to havethoughtful responses to these
applications,
Joe DeBellis (18:49):
you know, and we speak a lot with hJS across the
country, and you know, we'vebeen involved In many
organizations where firemarshals have created or started
almost, I would say educationalsessions or seminars. They'll
have working groups wherethey'll bring folks in to learn
(19:10):
about different technologies oror how to stay on top of some of
these projects. And I do thinkhJS are working to fully educate
themselves at the same time. Ialso think that's part of the
responsibility that that we haveas manufacturers of fire
suppression, or people that areevaluating fire risk, as well as
the developers. Right? If youtake a look at the planning
(19:31):
phase of a lot of theseprojects, ensuring that the
local fire services, hJS firemarshals, ensuring that they're
involved in the planning and thedesign of these battery storage
sites. It's it's prettyessential to not only comply,
you know, with with differentstandards, but to make sure that
you're getting that communitysupport. And then the fire
(19:51):
marshals and hJS are fullyeducated on what's going in and
what these safety measures are.
And so I think, with thenotoriety or a lot of. The Press
that some of the issues thathave happened with energy
storage throughout the years,obviously, they've made big
headlines, but I think a lot ofHJ is out there taking a look at
that and trying to understandand educate themselves to say,
(20:12):
hey, if this project's goinginto our community, how do we
implement these safety measures?
What are going to be ourstandard protocols for safety.
If there is an issue, what's theproper spacing of these
containers? You know? How can weput our input into this so that
if there is an issue, that notonly is the community safe, but
these folks that are the firstresponders are also going to be
(20:34):
safe and putting out the fire ormitigating the issues that
happen with it. So I do thinkthere's a lot of that education
that's happening throughoutdifferent communities and hJS
and fire marshals,
Tim Montague (20:48):
and when you think about improving the success rate
of getting projects permittedfrom a development perspective,
do you see a major difference Inhow developers need to
communicate with the publicversus hJS.
Joe DeBellis (21:05):
You know? I don't, I don't necessarily think
there's a difference in betweenthe communication between the
public and the hJS. I think it'smore so being proactive and
getting everybody together,right? I think the the public
relies on information from thehJS and the fire marshals in
their community, and then thedeveloper, their responsibility
is to educate and make sure thateverybody has a level playing
(21:28):
field of of understanding. Andso, you know, kind of going back
into the survey that I mentionedbefore, that we could dive into
in a little bit. But one of thethings that really stood out was
that of that small minority,that 29% of the Americans that
opposed energy storage, anoverwhelming majority of those
(21:48):
folks, 52% of them, actually didnot have any information about
energy storage. So that was whythey were essentially scared of
having these in their community.
So they opposed it because ofthe headlines that they've seen
in the news, but 52% half ofthese folks really didn't have
any sort of information aboutbattery storage. So it was one
of those things where if thedevelopers can bring together
(22:10):
the hJS fire marshals as well asthe community during these
planning sessions, and haveeverybody kind of understand
what they're doing and what theproject is about the technology,
how energy storage works, therelatively low risk that energy
storage does have on on some ofthese incidents, it's better for
everybody. So I don't thinkthere's a different approach
(22:33):
between the communication. Ithink it's more so kind of
bringing everybody together, ifthat makes sense.
Tim Montague (22:40):
And let's we're going to get into the survey,
but I am struggling a little bitto understand exactly fire
traces role. Obviously, you havea technical solution. So you
have technology that getsinstalled by manufacturers and
integrators in these batterycontainers, but you also are
(23:02):
serving as a consultant todevelopers. Is that right?
Joe DeBellis (23:07):
Absolutely. Yeah, we, we certainly do that on on
occasion. So we will work withso our expertise is fire and
fire suppression right at the atthe end of the day, what we do
is try to make sure that folksare protecting themselves, their
livelihood as well as theirassets. And so we try to create
(23:28):
a safe environment, especiallywith these renewable energy
projects. And many times, we'llwork side by side with
developers to not only discussfire risk and ensure that they
fully understand the technologythat is going into their planned
projects, but also helping themwith, how do we communicate to
the community? So if there is apermit hearing or there is a
(23:51):
planning session with thecommunity, how do we get people
comfortable with having theseprojects essentially in their
backyards, right? You mentioned,you know, the the opposition
that a lot of folks have, and Ithink again, kind of going back
to that misinformation side ofthings. It's, you know, we are
the fire experts, but having aclear understanding that we
could promote over to thedevelopers, and then developers
(24:12):
can discuss with the communityto say, Hey, these are the
mitigation strategies that we'reputting into our project. And
it's, you know, we're just onthe fire side of things, but
there's plenty of other thingsin regards to safety that can be
talked about with thesecommunities. And so, you know,
you take a look at some folksthat are possibly concerned
about environmental impacts fireand safety. These are all
(24:35):
discussions that can happen atthe planning phase. We on the
fire side of things, as fireexperts, will certainly work
with developers, work with thecommunity to ensure that
everybody has a clearunderstanding on the fire risk,
how it's being mitigated, andreally, essentially, hopefully
soothe concerns, to understandthat these risks are relatively
low when you have the propermitigation strategies.
Tim Montague (24:58):
So let's talk about the survey. What was the
impetus behind the survey? Whowas it sent to? And let's get
into some of the results.
Joe DeBellis (25:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim, so the impetus really forus, it was trying to get a clear
understanding. You know, as wejust mentioned, we do work with
developers and other folksduring the planning phase to
discuss some of these projectswith the communities. And we've
seen, you know, differentcommunities that have had, I
would say, a little bit ofbacklash to some of these
(25:28):
projects or just generalconcerns. And so, you know, over
the past couple of years, we'veseen, actually, I think in the
last year, there were about nineprojects energy storage related,
that were delayed and or pushedoff or canceled due to community
concerns. And at the end of theday, we understand right the
community has a right to beconcerned about the safety of
(25:51):
their community, of theirpeople. But at the same time, we
started really wanting to digdown into what was the root
cause of that, and weessentially came up with the
idea to issue a survey acrossthe US, and we polled nearly
4000 citizens across all 50states. So we wanted it to be
(26:11):
very comprehensive. And asmentioned previously, these
results actually surprised usquite a bit. You hear about a
lot of this opposition, you seethe headlines in the news, but
71% of Americans actuallysupport energy storage. They
supported the technology. It wasreally the 29% that we seem to
understand is going to be themore vocal minority, and they
(26:33):
oppose energy storage sites. Soit was an overwhelming majority
that did support it. But when wedrill down with further
questions into the 29% of peoplethat opposed it, we understood
that it really came down to alot of misinformation about
energy storage technology,people zeroing in on some of
these high profile, isolatedenergy storage fires, you know,
(26:55):
in California, New York,Arizona, and then just a lack of
knowledge regarding energystorage and technology in
general. 52% of that, 29% soabout half of the folks that
opposed it didn't have anyknowledge about energy storage
at all. They were just kind ofzeroing in on some of the the
past headlines. And so, youknow, we wanted to make sure
(27:17):
that we had a clear andcomprehensive survey that really
kind of let us understand alittle bit more of where the
community was heading, and thatcould help us help the
developers as well. And so, youknow, one thing that we also
really took from the results aswell was when we started asking
questions about if people were alittle bit more aware of the
(27:39):
benefits of energy storage.
Would that sway their opinion,or would that make them more
comfortable? So when we took alook at the survey results, 52%
of the US citizens that wereopposed said that they would
actually be more comfortablewith energy storage sites if
they had a clear understandingof the benefits. So not only
(28:00):
just the technology, but alsothe benefits. And so, you know,
you drill further into that, andyou take a look at, you know,
better, reliable power, cheaperelectricity bills, economic
benefits, more jobs in thecommunity. And so it was an
interesting thing to read, tounderstand that a lot of
citizens, if they just had alittle bit more education, and
we wiped out some of thatmisinformation, could easily
(28:21):
sway from, you know, a somebodythat's opposed to a project in
their backyard to, you knowwhat, this is actually pretty
good for the community. There'srelatively low risk. So yeah, it
might be something that we wouldsupport.
Tim Montague (28:31):
So 4000 people were surveyed. How did you
collect this? Those responses,and how many states are
represented in that in thoseresults.
Joe DeBellis (28:42):
So we polled nearly 4000 citizens across all
50 states, so we had a samplefrom each state. Okay, we did
use a third party so it wasn'trelated to to fire trace. So we
hired a third party. I'll haveto get you the name of the
census group, but they actuallyperformed the survey on our
behalf. We did help instructuring the questions, but
(29:05):
we did not sway the questions,and it was really just kind of
black or white. Do you support?
What would help you support? Orwhy would you oppose it? And so
we did poll across all 50states, and the reason we did
that was to kind of get a betterunderstanding and a pure sample
across all the regions in theUS. So there might be some folks
that don't have a lot ofrenewable energy projects
happening in there. Yeah,
Tim Montague (29:27):
that's the first thing that strikes me, though,
is is obviously somejurisdictions have a lot more
experience. Southern California,for example, do the results
demonstrate that in some regard,the the exposure that the public
has to CNI or utility storage isgoing to be quite biased
(29:50):
geographically, right? They'renot. Those projects aren't
happening everywhere. They areconcentrated in certain states.
So you know, when you pull outTexas and. California and New
York and Massachusetts andIllinois. Do the results differ
in some work, some regard,
Joe DeBellis (30:07):
you know, and not as much as you would, you would
think. And we thought the samething. So we took a look and
kind of drilled down a littlebit more into the results,
because we thought the samething. Maybe it was a lot of the
potentially favorable folks thatwere concentrated in these
areas, or reverse certainly. Andwe could share a little bit more
of those results with you, I'llhave to drill into exactly the
(30:30):
percentages there. But we diddive into that, and we did not
see as big of a correlation aswe would have thought. Where we
do think that a lot of thepotential lack of information
may be happening is some of theareas where maybe they're not
too prone to some of thesetechnologies and so, but, you
know, we did drill into that,and it was something that we
(30:52):
kept in mind. But also we wantto have kind of a clear picture
and really survey the entire US,because a lot of these projects
are kind of shifting around.
There are different areas thatare in process of of
development. But really, it wasone of those things where we
want to get a full picture ofthe US in general. And that's
why we did all 50 states.
Tim Montague (31:10):
I mean, ultimately, and there's and
there's emerging data on this,solar and batteries and wind
make for a more reliable grid,and the grid, you know, you can
think of a battery as a sponge,right? It receives energy, it
stores it, and then it releasesit instantaneously on demand,
which is a lovely thing ifyou're a grid operator, right?
(31:32):
There are constantly strugglingto balance the grid as demand
rises and shrinks, and so themore renewables, the more
batteries you want, andrenewables are the cheapest
source of power, and so 90% ofnew power plants on the grid now
are wind and and solar. And so Iguess this is also a message
(31:58):
that we need to drive home withthe public and authorities
having jurisdiction. Obviously,the federal government doesn't
really appreciate this rightnow. They're trying to stick a
stick in the eye of renewables.
But trust me, grid operatorsunderstand this, and they are
going to continue to developwind, solar and battery
(32:19):
projects. I
Joe DeBellis (32:21):
agree there, yeah, I was just gonna say, I agree,
Tim, I think it's, it's vitalfor us, especially we take a
look at, like, the the net zerotargets that we have, battery
storage is a key component tothat. And then, you know, you
take a look at the renewableenergy industry, but it's one
thing to look at wind and solar,but then you start looking at
just the development across thegrid in terms of, you know, some
(32:42):
of these data centers and, youknow, with AI coming on board,
and how do we, how do westructure the the grid to be
sound on that? And, you know,battery storage is going to be
something that is, is kind ofadded across different micro
grids and different developingcities. So I think it's one of
those things where it's, it'sgoing to be a vital technology.
It is a vital technology. But toyour point, you know, we just
got to make sure that make surethat folks understand that it's
(33:04):
going to be a key part of ourour success moving forward for a
sustainable future.
Tim Montague (33:09):
Hey guys, are you a residential solar installer
doing light commercial butwanting to scale into large CNI
solar? I'm Tim Montague. I'vedeveloped over 150 megawatts of
commercial solar, and I'vesolved the problem that you're
having you don't know what toolsand technologies you need in
order to successfully close 100KW to megawatt scale projects.
(33:34):
I've developed a commercialsolar accelerator to help
installers exactly like you.
Just go to clean power hour.comclick on strategy and book a
call today. It's totally freewith no obligation. Thanks for
being a listener. I reallyappreciate you listening to the
pod, and I'm Tim Montague. Let'sgrow solar and storage. Go to
clean power hour and clickstrategy today. Thanks so much.
(33:57):
Yeah, yeah. So there's a fewpoints of in our final few
minutes here together thatemerged from this research
you've done that developers andit's a and OEMs, it's a both.
And you know, really can learnfrom you mentioned focus on cost
(34:17):
savings, reliability and jobcreation, those are the goods
right that these projects areproviding, and they're very
important. And then addressingenvironmental and safety
concerns with transparency, no,no aspect of the built
environment comes without anyrisk or impact. Let's be frank.
Okay, there are risks. Any kindof a building has risks, but
(34:40):
there they can be mitigated,right? And we can integrate
these products into the builtenvironment responsibly, safely
and reliably. Now you there'stwo others here, though, that
I'd like to shine a light onshifting public opinion. So by
reducing fire risks, how high isthe fire risk, and what do you
(35:03):
think developers and OEMs can doto further reduce fire risks?
Joe DeBellis (35:13):
So the fire risk in general, if you take a look
at energy storage, you knowit's, it's, I think it's the
attention grabbing headlinesthat really scared a lot of
folks, and I think created moreso of a perception issue into
how prevalent the risk is. Youknow, we discussed EPRI
(35:33):
releasing that report. About 89%of the fire starting elsewhere,
outside of the batteries, andpropagating over every also
released a study, which was, Ithought, very informative. But
the data showed that between2018 and 2023 energy storage
fire incidents dropped by nearly97% they were rare to begin
(35:54):
with, but they dropped by nearly97% and that demonstrates you
know, that the fire starting bylithium ion batteries are rare
in installations. If you take alook at the entire landscape of
35 gigawatts of batteries thatwe have installed, there's one
fire, or, excuse me, there's onefire in every 35 gigawatts of
batteries that are installedacross, you know, all of the
(36:16):
gigawatts that we have outthere. So I think the EPRI data
really kind of spoke to itselfand proves that the technology
is relatively safe with withevery installment, so they don't
pose a very significant firerisk to local communities.
However, there is that inherentrisk that you just mentioned,
and I think that's just naturalwith any sort of development or
project, especially when you'redealing with electronics, and so
(36:39):
I think being proactive andmitigating those risks in the
sense of, you know, it's onething to install a system and
then think about safetyafterwards, and then you start
retrofitting a lot of thesesafety measures into it, but
going into the design withsafety in mind, and eliminating
some of these safety fires willhelp you engineer out a lot of
(37:00):
these issues, and then justprepare for potential risks and
the worst. So I think it's thatproactive approach that
developers and OEMs could taketo say, Hey, this is a great
technology that we have. Thesebatteries are are sound, but
let's implement some of thesemitigation techniques that we
have, whether it be, you know,off gas sensors, heat detection,
(37:21):
fire suppression, all of thosethings that could combine into a
great package to develop areally safe and robust
technology.
Tim Montague (37:30):
Yeah, check out episode 243, of the Clean Power
Hour. The title of that episodeis ensuring safety in grid scale
battery systems with Dr Zhang,ye of CPS America, and Ryan
Mayfield of Mayfield renewables,and we go deep into ul 9540 and
ul 9540 A. So that's a greatresource for you listeners. And
(37:54):
then Joe, there's one finalpoint here. Maybe it's two final
points. Okay? So we can andshould reduce fire risks, okay?
And I guess we can and shouldalso sway public opinion, I
(38:16):
guess, in the greater scheme ofthings is, is it simply a both?
And these are, these are bothequally important, or is there
one, one of those two thatdevelopers really need to get
better at first?
Joe DeBellis (38:32):
I think it's certainly, let's, let's tackle
the problem first and developwhat we're going to do and the
solutions that we're going totake for these projects. And so
I think that's, that's kind ofstep number one, so that the
next step following closelybehind is that we could educate
the community and the public onthese measures that we've taken.
And so I think it's, it'sunderstanding what we're going
(38:54):
to do for the project, thesafety measures that we're
implementing, and then havingthat discussion with the
community to sway their opinion,and again, the majority of them,
based on our survey results, arelikely in favor of these
projects, but the folks that areconcerned, there needs to be a
clear line of communication tosay, hey, we understand your
concerns. Here's what we'redoing to battle those risks and
(39:15):
really get them more comfortablewith the technology and the
project. It's it's really notsupposed to be a us versus them
type conversation. It's, let'sall get on board. This is a
great thing for our community,great thing for our future, for
the environment, and we're doingthis really to kind of help out
the world. And so it's one ofthose things where I think it's
that communication, butdefinitely tackling that problem
(39:37):
and understanding what you'regoing to do as an OEM or a
developer, upfront andproactively so that we could
discuss that with the communityto ease some of those concerns.
Well,
Tim Montague (39:47):
unfortunately, we're out of time. I'm going to
put some of these results in theshow notes, and from your
survey, I really, I reallyappreciate the information that
you're putting out there. You.
And Joe, how can our listenersfind you?
Joe DeBellis (40:03):
Yeah, no. Tim, again, appreciate you having me,
but yeah, our listeners couldreach out to me. I'm on
LinkedIn. If you also go to thefire trace website, there's a
lot of different areas that youcould contact someone from our
team. We have a very robusttechnical team that could help
you out with any questions youmay have about fire risks, you
could reach out to me directlyvia LinkedIn. So I welcome that,
(40:27):
and we're always here, reallyjust to even share information.
If you just have questionsconcerning different projects or
technologies and fire risk, firesafety, fire suppression
techniques, please feel free toreach out. We're always
available.
Tim Montague (40:42):
Yeah, there's a wealth of information on your
website. So check out firetraces website. We'll put a link
in the show notes to that. Checkout all of our content at clean
power hour.com. Please give us arating and a review on Apple or
Spotify. Follow us on YouTubeand reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I love hearing from mylisteners. With that, I'll say
(41:03):
thank you so much. Joe Debellis,Global Head of clean energy for
fire trace. I'm Tim Montague,let's grow solar and storage.
Thanks, Joe.
Joe DeBellis (41:12):
Thank you, Tim. I appreciate it. You.
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