Today on the Clean Power Hour, Tim Montague delves into the critical yet often overlooked aspect of electrification: EV charging infrastructure for multifamily housing. Tim welcomes Aubrey Gunnels, CEO and co-founder of 3V Infrastructure, a company that's tackling the significant gap in EV charging accessibility for the 31% of Americans living in multifamily buildings.
Aubrey explains how 3V's business model works – they provide all capital expenditure and operational costs while installing Level 2 chargers at multifamily properties at zero cost to property owners. The company generates revenue by charging drivers a premium on electricity rates, creating a sustainable business model that doesn't rely heavily on government subsidies. This approach addresses a crucial market need, as currently, only about 5% of multifamily buildings have EV chargers despite 80% of charging happening at home.
The conversation explores how 3V uses data-driven approaches to determine the optimal number of chargers for each property, considering factors like local EV registration data, building demographics, and anticipated growth patterns. Aubrey shares insights about how property managers see EV charging as an increasingly important amenity that affects NOI (Net Operating Income) and resident retention.
Tim and Aubrey discuss the challenges of EV infrastructure development in the US compared to Europe, the importance of charger reliability, and how private investment in charging infrastructure remains critical regardless of policy shifts. They also touch on the broader EV market trends, battery price decreases, and how the automotive sector's global competitiveness continues to drive EV development despite political changes.
This episode provides valuable insights for real estate owners, property managers, clean energy professionals, and anyone interested in the future of transportation electrification. Listen now to understand how companies like 3V Infrastructure are working to make EV ownership accessible to all Americans, regardless of where they live.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aubrey Gunnels (00:00):
And it's not and no EV person is sitting here
(00:02):
being like 100% of the US fleetis going to be Evie, even if 20%
of the EV of the US fleet, soall vehicles on the road are EV.
That is 20% of cars need to beable to have a place to to get
fuel, and that is EV charging.
So we think that's reallyimportant, and then as we see
public programs go away, wereally need to prioritize
(00:24):
getting private investment inthe EV space and to not be
scared of the space. The spaceis certainly still growing, and
the underwriting is not simple,but it's certainly achievable.
Are
intro (00:39):
you speeding the energy transition here at the Clean
Power Hour, our host, TimMontague, bring you the best in
solar, batteries and cleantechnologies every week. Want to
go deeper into decarbonization.
We do too. We're here to helpyou understand and command the
commercial, residential andutility, solar, wind and storage
industries. So let's get to ittogether. We can speed the
(01:01):
energy transition
Tim Montague (01:05):
charging infrastructure for
electrification oftransportation, that is the
topic we're taking a deep diveon today. Welcome to the Clean
Power Hour. Check out all of ourcontent at cleanpowerhour.com.
Please give us a rating and areview on Apple or Spotify and
tell a friend about the show. Myguest today is Aubrey Gunnels.
She is the CEO and founder of 3vinfrastructure. Welcome to the
(01:29):
show,
Aubrey Gunnels (01:30):
right? Happy to hear be here. Tim, this is
Tim Montague (01:33):
a unique conversation. I've never really
geeked out on infrastructure, onon charging infrastructure, so
I'm very happy to bring this. Ofcourse, we solar and storage
professionals are alsoelectrification professionals,
and charging infrastructure ispart and parcel of the work that
we do in the CNI solar andstorage space. And I have seen
(01:57):
the future. Aubrey, I have beento Northern Europe, and EVs are
ubiquitous, and the charginginfrastructure is ubiquitous.
They are 10 years ahead of us.
Literally. I was also a model Yowner for a year and a half, and
I understand intimately thegood, the bad and the ugly of
owning an EV and travelingaround the Midwest and traveling
(02:19):
long distances to the EastCoast. And mostly it really
worked. But ultimately, rangeanxiety did kill the model Y for
me, because I go to rural partsof the upper Midwest. But
Aubrey, I digress. Tell us alittle bit about yourself and
why you started 3v
Aubrey Gunnels (02:42):
definitely. And we hear everything from clients
of whether they've had an EV andas you've done so, it's not,
it's not the time, but maybelater. And then we have clients
that own two EVs per household.
So it really, really changes anddepends on people's driving
habits. But, but, yeah, so operagunnels, I'm the founder and co
founder and CEO of 3v we are acharge point operator, so a CPO
(03:06):
for Level Two charging level twocharging for any guests that
don't know it's you can chargeyour card about four to six
hours when it's at rest, sosimilar to how you would charge
your phone when you're sleepingor at work, etc. And we own and
operate chargers, especially inthe multi family spaces where
(03:26):
we're focusing now and arereally trying to bridge the gap
of access to to chargers forpeople that live in multi family
buildings. About 31% ofAmericans live in multi family
buildings. Only about 5% ofthose buildings have chargers
right now, and we also knowabout 80% of charging happens at
home. So as we look at EVadoption and who owns an EV,
(03:48):
it's very highly skewed towardssingle family homeowners. So
we're really built out to do soI would say me and my co founder
got into the space by one. I wasworking at a CNI solar fund, and
then I was and then my cofounder, Ben, was working at a
EV charging software company,and we were really focusing in
(04:09):
this level two space. And itbecame very clear that there was
just a lack of infrastructuredollars in the space. There's a
lot of hardware providers. It'salmost a commodity. There's a
lot of software vendors, butreally there's a big gap, and
thinking about level twocharging as an infrastructure.
So we're and it functions kindof like infrastructure, as in,
it's a long hold asset, itrequires construction, etc, but
(04:32):
it is consumer driven risk. Itis small checks times 1000s of
properties, which is a littlebit different than other types
of infrastructure. Types ofinfrastructure. So really trying
to redefine the market in thatsense, yeah,
Tim Montague (04:47):
you know the when I, when I got my EV, I installed
the level two charger. This is a50 amp charger that I put in my
garage. It was about $500 allin. I hired an electrician. I
just put a big 50 amp plug andthen plug my Tesla into that. It
worked great. But you it doestake several hours to charge the
(05:11):
vehicle. You don't want to tryto charge your EV on level one,
if you're traveling any kind ofdistances, that's just a joke,
in my opinion. No bueno. Butlevel two is the real deal, and
most people do charge their EVsat home. The average commute in
America is, like, 40 miles, Ithink something like that,
right? So it's totally doable,but if you don't own your home,
(05:34):
you can't necessarily make anupgrade to the garage or
whatever you have access to andinstall a level two charger. And
so that is an impediment forrenters or multi family
dwellers. As you indicated, 30%of our population, that's a big
chunk of our population, so wedesperately need more EV
(05:56):
infrastructure in a multi familyspace. What is the basic
business model that 3b ischasing and
Aubrey Gunnels (06:06):
to and even to piggyback on what you just said,
it's it's not that real estateowners haven't tried to tackle
this issue. It is to work acrossmost real estate portfolio
owners own properties acrossstates, so to install across
jurisdictions, to install atscale, to install across a
portfolio, requires almost anentire person that's dedicated
(06:28):
to that rollout, and the ROIdoesn't normally meet that. So
we've just seen a lot ofstruggle across the industry of
whether to prioritize it, andhow it affects an OI and things
of that nature. So that's kindof where we see the value prop.
But what we do is we provide allthe capex and all the OPEX, so
absolutely no cost to theproperty. And we the drivers pay
(06:51):
for electricity through thecharges we install. So say the
building, the building blendedrate is about like 12 cents,
then we'll charge an extra 20cents on top of that, and that
is what goes back to paying downthe infrastructure cost there,
so that way it's no cost to getinto the property, and we'll
continue to operate the assetover over the life of a like a
(07:12):
10 year, 12 year contract.
Tim Montague (07:15):
And so have you ever done a an analysis of how
this plays out for consumers,like the relative cost of
charging using this financialmodel versus if I were to be
able to do it in my garage usingjust the cost of the
(07:36):
electricity, right? There's someadditional expense here, because
presumably the consumer ispaying for the infrastructure
upgrade as well, right? Yeah, I
Aubrey Gunnels (07:45):
would say, compared to single family home,
it's, I wouldn't say it's likecomparable, because you're
paying for the electricity andyou paid for the upgrade, etc,
when it comes to comparing it tolevel three charging so like
superchargers, um, we definitelyhit a lower cost per kW than
those sites. And then you alsodon't have the sunk cost of time
of sitting at a supercharger for45 minutes versus you can just
(08:08):
charge it when you park and goup to bed and wake up the next
day. Yeah. So there's that. Andthen I would also say, you know,
charger liability is a hugepiece of of EV charging. EV
charging is notorious for a badexperience. And we think that's
because of two things. One, it'spurely it comes down to the
economics. If no one isincentivized to maintain those
(08:30):
chargers, then the charges godown. That's how capitalism
works. So there's and so earlydays, there are a lot of bad
deals that were done that thecontracts just couldn't be
maintained. And then the otherpiece is we have to conduct
continue to invest inmaintenance and making sure that
they are up and someone that isresponsible and economically
responsible for them to be to beworking. So the so the all to
(08:55):
say the consumers find can havemore time, like they don't spend
as much time at chargers to doso. And then two, it's still
more cost effective than to one,definitely drive an ice vehicle,
so a combustion engine vehicle.
And then two, compared to justrelying on the Supercharger
network, yeah,
Tim Montague (09:13):
it really adds insult to injury when you're
looking for a charger and youfinally find one, and then it's
dysfunctional for some reasonout of commission, and that did
happen a few times to me. I wasmostly just charging at Teslas
and at the say, the Teslainfrastructure seemed pretty
reliable, but it was also fairlynew, so I don't know how it's
(09:35):
aging, but the other thing thatI think about around this is,
how do you decide, based on thenumber of units in a building,
for example, or a complex whatnumber of chargers you want to
install, what is a sweet spot?
Yeah, so
Aubrey Gunnels (09:55):
we are very data driven when it comes to how many
we charge, just because we'reinvestors. We have to that's a
huge driver of how many chargersto install, because it is
directly correlated to ourCapEx. And I would say we know
that, you know, the demand in LAis very different than the
demand in Charlotte. So we usehyper focused, localized data of
(10:17):
current EV registration within ahalf mile square radius, and
then apply growth curves of howwe anticipate that penetration
and at the address level to be.
And then from there, we have alot of assumptions around how
much, how many kW, what is theKW demand at that at that
property, based off of thenumber of people that live in
that building, based off of thenumber of existing drivers based
(10:39):
off of what we see as batteryefficiency, what we see as the
vehicles miles traveled for thiskind of building. So I would
say, like, you know, if you live30 minutes outside the city,
you're probably more likely tobe a commuter versus if you live
in the middle of the city, yourvehicles miles traveled is
statistically lower. So reallytaking into account what is the
(11:01):
type of demographic at thatbuilding, in order to make sure
that what we're building meetsthe need, both from a not to
overbuild, but also certainlynot to under build,
Tim Montague (11:13):
right? And is there some kind of a rule of
thumb, though, that okay, ifthere's 30 units or 100 units in
a building, you will try toinclude 10% of the parking spots
with electric, electriccharging. Or what is that rule
of thumb? The
Aubrey Gunnels (11:32):
rule of thumb is like, so location dependent. So
I would, but I would say, likewe, we, on average, would
install, like six to 10, on anaverage of, like, a 200 unit
property. Okay, so, and thereason we do that is one, we are
taking inherent risk by buildingbefore demand exists. Um, a lot,
(11:52):
like the majority of EV drivers,again, live in a single family
home, so we are making anupfront investment with the
anticipation that EV driverswill live there. Each property
is going to have its own storyof when that happens. We also
know that people buy EVs in thesame way that you buy a piece of
tech. It's because someonerecommends it to you, because a
(12:13):
friend like Doug just for it,because a cousin said something.
It's so it's really hyperdependent. And I've talked to
many of different investmentfunds about this, and they've
said they've continued,especially across Europe,
because, as you stated at thebeginning, we're five to 10
years behind. So just trying tofind analytic trends of how we
(12:35):
can tell where is EV adoptiongoing to happen? And the answer
is, it's too impossible to tell,like there's no statistical
except for if there's, ofcourse, like policy that's that
really resonates.
Tim Montague (12:48):
So then I guess let's talk about how you're
attacking the market. I wouldimagine that you're finding big
real estate companies that ownmany assets and trying to do
some kind of a master's levelservice agreement or something
like that.
Aubrey Gunnels (13:03):
Yeah, we work with large real estate
portfolios. So we have twosegments, one is like about 50,
I would say 50 in the second,and then, like the whale
segment, that is over 100properties in their portfolio.
Versus we have, you know, a listof 500 multi family owners that
own an average of 12 properties.
So we work across the gamut, butwe also can take a lot of
(13:26):
lessons learned from EV chargingcompanies over the last five
years, and we know that goingdoor knocking is the ROI on a
sales team isn't there, andthat's also how you kill a
company because of head count.
So really working at theportfolio level, sure we found
is how we can achieve it at themultifamily
Tim Montague (13:47):
Okay, and here's, here's a geeky question that my
listeners will appreciate,though, so is the electrical
infrastructure, like the serviceto the building, a barrier like
is, do you have to make serviceupgrades in the amperage of the
service to the building toachieve this? Or is that
(14:08):
generally not a problem? It
Aubrey Gunnels (14:10):
really depends on the class of property. So,
for instance, class Cproperties, or properties that
are built like in the 70s andbefore, those we have found to
not have enough available power.
And that's also but if you addsome load sharing software on
top, then it kind of depends. Iwould say most Class A and Class
B types properties, there'senough house power to build,
especially this first tranche ofchargers,
Tim Montague (14:34):
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Some are replacing the guts ofthe panel with with smarter
technology that is more dynamic.
Is that something that you'realso doing, or are you just
(15:51):
looking for this sweet spot of,okay, the infrastructure is
good, and we're going to addcharge point chargers, boom,
Aubrey Gunnels (16:02):
yeah. And we work with all kinds of different
charging partners, but I wouldsay they they all have load
manage, like load managementcapabilities, and that is so
that way they can split acircuit if needed, and things
like that. And then I would say,from like a micro grid, adding
in a battery and things of thatnature, the demand would the
data would have to exist in areally meaningful way for us to
(16:23):
do that in the first tranche ofchart of installation. But say
we go back because demand hashit a certain threshold and we
need to build more chargers, butthere's not available power,
then the ROI on on the microgrid like and installing a
battery starts to make a littlebit more sense. Okay,
Tim Montague (16:40):
and what kind of traction Are you getting?
Aubrey Gunnels (16:44):
It's it's been interesting. I would say one
ever like everyone is interestedin providing the best amenity to
their to their residents and tostay competitive in the space.
And they're certainly it's beingit's very competitive to have
chargers at your property, andpeople do make decisions based
off of it. There is a recentsurvey from Gray star that 27%
(17:06):
of renters care if there's an EVcharger or not at their
properties. So but also our theasset management teams of of
these large real estate REITshave a lot going on, and EV
charging is not normally in thetop five. So it's really moving
through the process to to makeit a priority, to to really make
(17:29):
a compelling case of why this isneeds to be addressed today,
rather than waiting anotheryear. I would also say we have a
number of clients that havetried a rollout process, and it
was really burdensome, and havehad just like bad experiences
trying to make this work acrosstheir portfolios, and the ROI
(17:50):
is, again, pretty light thatthey're really looking for an
outsourced solution, that it'sour sole job is to make sure
those charges are working andProviding a reliable amenity.
Tim Montague (18:01):
And is your business model to own the
charging infrastructure oreventually sell it to the
facility owner?
Aubrey Gunnels (18:08):
We'll own it over the life of the asset,
we'll continue to own them.
Tim Montague (18:11):
Got it. So check out 3v infrastructure. Just like
it sounds normal,3vinfrastructure.com. You'll
immediately see what we'retalking about here. There's a
great shot of a parking deck,obviously inside some kind of a
high rise building, and you'vegot a bunch of green painted
(18:31):
parking spots with conduitrunning down the poles the
columns in the DAT in theparking structure so it, it
looks like it works pretty well.
It's, it's, you know, it itfolds into the existing
infrastructure pretty nicely, inmy opinion. Of course, it's a
lot of electrical work, but say,La vie, right, that's what we're
(18:55):
talking about. And I wouldimagine that this amenity for
consumers, allows them to, youknow, charge more or promote the
property as a luxury property,perhaps. So what is the response
you're getting from the multifamily real estate owners?
Aubrey Gunnels (19:17):
Um, as far as
Tim Montague (19:20):
well. How do they, how do they see this? Do they
get this light bulb that forthe, you know, for example, that
I just had about, well, yeah,this is a nice amenity. People
are going to elect, you know,buy EVs, despite the ups and
downs right there, there's,there's turbulence in the
electrification oftransportation market. Companies
(19:42):
are coming and going, butthere's going to be this long
term trend because of the costof EVs, right? Ultimately, EVs
are going to be much moreeconomical to own and operate
for consumers and fleet owners,period, if you were moving
parts. Works, lower cost ofenergy. Boom done. Happens,
(20:04):
right? You can't stop thistransition. It. You can. You can
accelerate it by providingincentives. And that's what
Northern Europe has done, andmaybe some states and cities in
the US have done this, but wedon't have great incentives. I
don't know from yourperspective, what you think
about the incentives for EVinfrastructure, but yeah, how do
(20:26):
the real estate owners respondto this? Yeah,
Aubrey Gunnels (20:30):
definitely. I can address both. I would say
they definitely. Real estateowners try to increase noi,
which is basically how much theyare providing enterprise value
to their to their buildings inorder to like that is the real
estate market, right? Becausethey buy and sell a lot and
things of that nature to staycompetitive in the space. And EV
(20:52):
chargers do add to in a line. Soit's the availability of the
best amenities, and reliableamenities is certainly something
they're interested in. They alsowould never want to lose a
potential resident because theydidn't have chargers there. And
especially if it's anachievable, it's very achievable
to install chargers there. Sowe're definitely getting like
(21:16):
they see the need as much as wesee the need, and they're very
amenable to trying to do a fullscale rollout,
Tim Montague (21:23):
is there other infrastructure that they're
installing in their facilitiesthat's analogous where there's a
third party ownedinfrastructure?
Aubrey Gunnels (21:31):
Laundry is kind of the best analogy. I would
say, if you have shared laundryservice that's completely,
normally, completely outsourced,and someone maintains those over
time, and it's, you know, fullfunction, that's one of the
older ones. And then there'salso things like package
lockers, that is also kind ofsimilar, because they're owned
by an outside party, they get acut of the profit share and
(21:55):
things like that. So what
Tim Montague (21:56):
about, what about incentives we, you know, is the
IRA juicing this industry,
Aubrey Gunnels (22:03):
I would say largely, one, 3v we under at
this business, wrote that wasthat with with turbulence in
mind, it's a space that we'veseen a lot of players come and
go, and that is because and sowe are really conservative in
how we looked at the business toTo get into it. So we are not
directly like reliant on onsubsidies. We'll take free money
(22:25):
all day long. But that is notnecessarily what's driving our
economics, I would say, from aand I would also the level two
space was largely, I don't wantto say forgotten, but forgotten.
And the inflation Reduction Actand the infrastructure bill,
they it was really aroundproviding reliable public level
(22:47):
three supercharging in areasthat the private sector wouldn't
touch. So those programs areimportant, but just further
makes the case of why privatecharging is even more important
now, as we go through shifts inWashington, and I would say that
actually the most meaningfulsubsidies out there are through
(23:08):
utilities. Utilities are veryand various utilities around the
US, whether it's Excel PG and etcetera, are really trying to
make sure that as we build outEV charging infrastructure, it's
done in a reliable way that theyhave some control over, and
that's really created moresubsidies available in that
capacity as well the inflationReduction Act. What impacts us
(23:31):
the most is we care aboutaffordable EVs, and as
affordable EVs continue to hitthe market that is reliant on
batteries, battery factories tocontinue to come online in the
US and really watching out forhow these EV factories continue
to be built, that some of thatis coming from both chips and
the inflation Reduction
Tim Montague (23:50):
Act. Quite a bit of turbulence in the battery
industry too. I just noted thatfryer, the Norwegian battery
company that was going to builda giga factory in Georgia to
make batteries here in the UShas rebranded, I think it's
something like 3t I can'tremember exactly, but they're a
solar company now they're notjust a battery company. And,
(24:17):
yeah, I guess, what is Americadoing right to make this to ease
this transition, and what do weneed to do better? Let's
Aubrey Gunnels (24:29):
see what. I guess, from the battery side, we
like. Battery prices aredropping significantly every
year, and that's the main costof an eV so as we see those
drive down, the cost of EVs aregoing to drive down, I would say
what a lot of questions we getare, what does the EV market
look like, like under this newadministration? And the answer
is, it's still up and to theright. The question is, how to
(24:50):
the right and how up? And thatis really driven by, you know,
the US automotive sector is, isvery asked, if you could put.
With China. China can createelectric vehicles for cheaper
than we can create ice vehicles,so combustion engine vehicles.
And if they want to compete on aglobal scale, they need to
(25:12):
continue to their path towardcreating the best, the latest
and greatest EV models. Andevery report and narrative right
now is very much saying thateven like Jim, for instance, has
come out very strongly thatthey're going to continue their
EV program in the same likecaliber. So it's and it's not,
(25:33):
and no EV person is sitting herebeing like 100% of the US fleet
is going to be EV, even if 20%of the EV of the US fleet so all
vehicles on the road are EV thatis 20% of cars need to be able
to have a place to to get fuel,and that is EV charging. So we
think that's really important.
And then as we see publicprograms go away, we really need
(25:55):
to prioritize getting privateinvestment in the EV space, and
to not be scared of the space.
The space is certainly stillgrowing, and the underwriting is
not simple, but it's certainlyachievable if, if everyone
takes, you know, a finance eyeto it. So
Tim Montague (26:17):
what else should our listeners know in our last
couple of minutes together,Aubrey,
Aubrey Gunnels (26:21):
let's see one they should buy an EV, unless,
and if they live in a singlefamily and they live in a multi
family building, they shouldabsolutely contact their
property manager, who shouldcontact their property owner,
who should say that they shouldgo talk to 3v I think the more
that we can also create demandis, the faster our clients are
(26:42):
ready to move. So sure, the morethat you know it's asked for,
the more it helps us, I guess.
But obviously, I'm just tryingto put charges in the ground,
and I think the I think we willcontinue to see a very large
shift in available EV chargersin the US, and that will just
give consumers more confidenceto buy an EV, and the more that
we can have reliable informationon how to take care of an eV.
(27:08):
And things like when you rent anEV, to have that experience to
be even better than I think, oreven it's been interesting to
even see like Uber is a lot oftimes the first time people ever
ride a Tesla, and that createsmore drive in the market, and
the more that we can exposepeople that EVs are really great
cars and Vulcan and again, themore that we can drive adoption
(27:33):
is really what we're after. But
Tim Montague (27:36):
I take a lot of Ubers, and I travel around the
country quite a bit. The onlystate where I see a lot of
electric Ubers is California,New York. There's quite a bit
now too. California didincentivize EV sales, and they
are, I think they're stillsunsetting ice engine sales. Are
(27:58):
they not
Aubrey Gunnels (27:59):
think it's gonna that's gonna be pushed back, but
I would say, regardless ofincentives, there's gonna be
plenty of adoption. So yeah,yeah. So
Tim Montague (28:12):
is there when you when, when analysts look at the
adoption of EVs, like the salesof EVs versus infrastructure?
Are they tracking well enough,or is infrastructure lagging?
Infrastructure
Aubrey Gunnels (28:26):
is severely lagging, and that's for a
variety. Yeah, okay,
Tim Montague (28:32):
hence the business opportunity. Yes, anything else?
Aubrey Gunnels (28:38):
No, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to
me. It's also fine. Your name isTim. My dad's name is Tim.
Awesome.
Tim Montague (28:44):
You know, I love running into other Tims. Well,
check out all of our content atcleanpowerhour.com reach out to
me on LinkedIn. I love hearingfrom my listeners. You can also
find us at cleanpowerhour.comGive us a rating and review on
Apple or Spotify. Follow us onYouTube and Aubrey, how can our
listeners find you
Aubrey Gunnels (29:04):
LinkedIn, or you can find me on the website?
Tim Montague (29:09):
Awesome with that, I will say I'm Tim Montague.
Let's grow solar and storage.
Thank you so much. Aubreygunnels, you.
And it's not and no EV person is sitting here
(00:02):
being like 100% of the US fleetis going to be Evie, even if 20%
of the EV of the US fleet, soall vehicles on the road are EV.
That is 20% of cars need to beable to have a place to to get
fuel, and that is EV charging.
So we think that's reallyimportant, and then as we see
public programs go away, wereally need to prioritize
(00:24):
getting private investment inthe EV space and to not be
scared of the space. The spaceis certainly still growing, and
the underwriting is not simple,but it's certainly achievable.
Are
intro (00:39):
you speeding the energy transition here at the Clean
Power Hour, our host, TimMontague, bring you the best in
solar, batteries and cleantechnologies every week. Want to
go deeper into decarbonization.
We do too. We're here to helpyou understand and command the
commercial, residential andutility, solar, wind and storage
industries. So let's get to ittogether. We can speed the
(01:01):
energy transition
Tim Montague (01:05):
charging infrastructure for
electrification oftransportation, that is the
topic we're taking a deep diveon today. Welcome to the Clean
Power Hour. Check out all of ourcontent at cleanpowerhour.com.
Please give us a rating and areview on Apple or Spotify and
tell a friend about the show. Myguest today is Aubrey Gunnels.
She is the CEO and founder of 3vinfrastructure. Welcome to the
(01:29):
show,
Aubrey Gunnels (01:30):
right? Happy to hear be here. Tim, this is
Tim Montague (01:33):
a unique conversation. I've never really
geeked out on infrastructure, onon charging infrastructure, so
I'm very happy to bring this. Ofcourse, we solar and storage
professionals are alsoelectrification professionals,
and charging infrastructure ispart and parcel of the work that
we do in the CNI solar andstorage space. And I have seen
(01:57):
the future. Aubrey, I have beento Northern Europe, and EVs are
ubiquitous, and the charginginfrastructure is ubiquitous.
They are 10 years ahead of us.
Literally. I was also a model Yowner for a year and a half, and
I understand intimately thegood, the bad and the ugly of
owning an EV and travelingaround the Midwest and traveling
(02:19):
long distances to the EastCoast. And mostly it really
worked. But ultimately, rangeanxiety did kill the model Y for
me, because I go to rural partsof the upper Midwest. But
Aubrey, I digress. Tell us alittle bit about yourself and
why you started 3v
Aubrey Gunnels (02:42):
definitely. And we hear everything from clients
of whether they've had an EV andas you've done so, it's not,
it's not the time, but maybelater. And then we have clients
that own two EVs per household.
So it really, really changes anddepends on people's driving
habits. But, but, yeah, so operagunnels, I'm the founder and co
founder and CEO of 3v we are acharge point operator, so a CPO
(03:06):
for Level Two charging level twocharging for any guests that
don't know it's you can chargeyour card about four to six
hours when it's at rest, sosimilar to how you would charge
your phone when you're sleepingor at work, etc. And we own and
operate chargers, especially inthe multi family spaces where
(03:26):
we're focusing now and arereally trying to bridge the gap
of access to to chargers forpeople that live in multi family
buildings. About 31% ofAmericans live in multi family
buildings. Only about 5% ofthose buildings have chargers
right now, and we also knowabout 80% of charging happens at
home. So as we look at EVadoption and who owns an EV,
(03:48):
it's very highly skewed towardssingle family homeowners. So
we're really built out to do soI would say me and my co founder
got into the space by one. I wasworking at a CNI solar fund, and
then I was and then my cofounder, Ben, was working at a
EV charging software company,and we were really focusing in
(04:09):
this level two space. And itbecame very clear that there was
just a lack of infrastructuredollars in the space. There's a
lot of hardware providers. It'salmost a commodity. There's a
lot of software vendors, butreally there's a big gap, and
thinking about level twocharging as an infrastructure.
So we're and it functions kindof like infrastructure, as in,
it's a long hold asset, itrequires construction, etc, but
(04:32):
it is consumer driven risk. Itis small checks times 1000s of
properties, which is a littlebit different than other types
of infrastructure. Types ofinfrastructure. So really trying
to redefine the market in thatsense, yeah,
Tim Montague (04:47):
you know the when I, when I got my EV, I installed
the level two charger. This is a50 amp charger that I put in my
garage. It was about $500 allin. I hired an electrician. I
just put a big 50 amp plug andthen plug my Tesla into that. It
worked great. But you it doestake several hours to charge the
(05:11):
vehicle. You don't want to tryto charge your EV on level one,
if you're traveling any kind ofdistances, that's just a joke,
in my opinion. No bueno. Butlevel two is the real deal, and
most people do charge their EVsat home. The average commute in
America is, like, 40 miles, Ithink something like that,
right? So it's totally doable,but if you don't own your home,
(05:34):
you can't necessarily make anupgrade to the garage or
whatever you have access to andinstall a level two charger. And
so that is an impediment forrenters or multi family
dwellers. As you indicated, 30%of our population, that's a big
chunk of our population, so wedesperately need more EV
(05:56):
infrastructure in a multi familyspace. What is the basic
business model that 3b ischasing and
Aubrey Gunnels (06:06):
to and even to piggyback on what you just said,
it's it's not that real estateowners haven't tried to tackle
this issue. It is to work acrossmost real estate portfolio
owners own properties acrossstates, so to install across
jurisdictions, to install atscale, to install across a
portfolio, requires almost anentire person that's dedicated
(06:28):
to that rollout, and the ROIdoesn't normally meet that. So
we've just seen a lot ofstruggle across the industry of
whether to prioritize it, andhow it affects an OI and things
of that nature. So that's kindof where we see the value prop.
But what we do is we provide allthe capex and all the OPEX, so
absolutely no cost to theproperty. And we the drivers pay
(06:51):
for electricity through thecharges we install. So say the
building, the building blendedrate is about like 12 cents,
then we'll charge an extra 20cents on top of that, and that
is what goes back to paying downthe infrastructure cost there,
so that way it's no cost to getinto the property, and we'll
continue to operate the assetover over the life of a like a
(07:12):
10 year, 12 year contract.
Tim Montague (07:15):
And so have you ever done a an analysis of how
this plays out for consumers,like the relative cost of
charging using this financialmodel versus if I were to be
able to do it in my garage usingjust the cost of the
(07:36):
electricity, right? There's someadditional expense here, because
presumably the consumer ispaying for the infrastructure
upgrade as well, right? Yeah, I
Aubrey Gunnels (07:45):
would say, compared to single family home,
it's, I wouldn't say it's likecomparable, because you're
paying for the electricity andyou paid for the upgrade, etc,
when it comes to comparing it tolevel three charging so like
superchargers, um, we definitelyhit a lower cost per kW than
those sites. And then you alsodon't have the sunk cost of time
of sitting at a supercharger for45 minutes versus you can just
(08:08):
charge it when you park and goup to bed and wake up the next
day. Yeah. So there's that. Andthen I would also say, you know,
charger liability is a hugepiece of of EV charging. EV
charging is notorious for a badexperience. And we think that's
because of two things. One, it'spurely it comes down to the
economics. If no one isincentivized to maintain those
(08:30):
chargers, then the charges godown. That's how capitalism
works. So there's and so earlydays, there are a lot of bad
deals that were done that thecontracts just couldn't be
maintained. And then the otherpiece is we have to conduct
continue to invest inmaintenance and making sure that
they are up and someone that isresponsible and economically
responsible for them to be to beworking. So the so the all to
(08:55):
say the consumers find can havemore time, like they don't spend
as much time at chargers to doso. And then two, it's still
more cost effective than to one,definitely drive an ice vehicle,
so a combustion engine vehicle.
And then two, compared to justrelying on the Supercharger
network, yeah,
Tim Montague (09:13):
it really adds insult to injury when you're
looking for a charger and youfinally find one, and then it's
dysfunctional for some reasonout of commission, and that did
happen a few times to me. I wasmostly just charging at Teslas
and at the say, the Teslainfrastructure seemed pretty
reliable, but it was also fairlynew, so I don't know how it's
(09:35):
aging, but the other thing thatI think about around this is,
how do you decide, based on thenumber of units in a building,
for example, or a complex whatnumber of chargers you want to
install, what is a sweet spot?
Yeah, so
Aubrey Gunnels (09:55):
we are very data driven when it comes to how many
we charge, just because we'reinvestors. We have to that's a
huge driver of how many chargersto install, because it is
directly correlated to ourCapEx. And I would say we know
that, you know, the demand in LAis very different than the
demand in Charlotte. So we usehyper focused, localized data of
(10:17):
current EV registration within ahalf mile square radius, and
then apply growth curves of howwe anticipate that penetration
and at the address level to be.
And then from there, we have alot of assumptions around how
much, how many kW, what is theKW demand at that at that
property, based off of thenumber of people that live in
that building, based off of thenumber of existing drivers based
(10:39):
off of what we see as batteryefficiency, what we see as the
vehicles miles traveled for thiskind of building. So I would
say, like, you know, if you live30 minutes outside the city,
you're probably more likely tobe a commuter versus if you live
in the middle of the city, yourvehicles miles traveled is
statistically lower. So reallytaking into account what is the
(11:01):
type of demographic at thatbuilding, in order to make sure
that what we're building meetsthe need, both from a not to
overbuild, but also certainlynot to under build,
Tim Montague (11:13):
right? And is there some kind of a rule of
thumb, though, that okay, ifthere's 30 units or 100 units in
a building, you will try toinclude 10% of the parking spots
with electric, electriccharging. Or what is that rule
of thumb? The
Aubrey Gunnels (11:32):
rule of thumb is like, so location dependent. So
I would, but I would say, likewe, we, on average, would
install, like six to 10, on anaverage of, like, a 200 unit
property. Okay, so, and thereason we do that is one, we are
taking inherent risk by buildingbefore demand exists. Um, a lot,
(11:52):
like the majority of EV drivers,again, live in a single family
home, so we are making anupfront investment with the
anticipation that EV driverswill live there. Each property
is going to have its own storyof when that happens. We also
know that people buy EVs in thesame way that you buy a piece of
tech. It's because someonerecommends it to you, because a
(12:13):
friend like Doug just for it,because a cousin said something.
It's so it's really hyperdependent. And I've talked to
many of different investmentfunds about this, and they've
said they've continued,especially across Europe,
because, as you stated at thebeginning, we're five to 10
years behind. So just trying tofind analytic trends of how we
(12:35):
can tell where is EV adoptiongoing to happen? And the answer
is, it's too impossible to tell,like there's no statistical
except for if there's, ofcourse, like policy that's that
really resonates.
Tim Montague (12:48):
So then I guess let's talk about how you're
attacking the market. I wouldimagine that you're finding big
real estate companies that ownmany assets and trying to do
some kind of a master's levelservice agreement or something
like that.
Aubrey Gunnels (13:03):
Yeah, we work with large real estate
portfolios. So we have twosegments, one is like about 50,
I would say 50 in the second,and then, like the whale
segment, that is over 100properties in their portfolio.
Versus we have, you know, a listof 500 multi family owners that
own an average of 12 properties.
So we work across the gamut, butwe also can take a lot of
(13:26):
lessons learned from EV chargingcompanies over the last five
years, and we know that goingdoor knocking is the ROI on a
sales team isn't there, andthat's also how you kill a
company because of head count.
So really working at theportfolio level, sure we found
is how we can achieve it at themultifamily
Tim Montague (13:47):
Okay, and here's, here's a geeky question that my
listeners will appreciate,though, so is the electrical
infrastructure, like the serviceto the building, a barrier like
is, do you have to make serviceupgrades in the amperage of the
service to the building toachieve this? Or is that
(14:08):
generally not a problem? It
Aubrey Gunnels (14:10):
really depends on the class of property. So,
for instance, class Cproperties, or properties that
are built like in the 70s andbefore, those we have found to
not have enough available power.
And that's also but if you addsome load sharing software on
top, then it kind of depends. Iwould say most Class A and Class
B types properties, there'senough house power to build,
especially this first tranche ofchargers,
Tim Montague (14:34):
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also, like smart panel upgradesof various flavors. Some are,
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Some are replacing the guts ofthe panel with with smarter
technology that is more dynamic.
Is that something that you'realso doing, or are you just
(15:51):
looking for this sweet spot of,okay, the infrastructure is
good, and we're going to addcharge point chargers, boom,
Aubrey Gunnels (16:02):
yeah. And we work with all kinds of different
charging partners, but I wouldsay they they all have load
manage, like load managementcapabilities, and that is so
that way they can split acircuit if needed, and things
like that. And then I would say,from like a micro grid, adding
in a battery and things of thatnature, the demand would the
data would have to exist in areally meaningful way for us to
(16:23):
do that in the first tranche ofchart of installation. But say
we go back because demand hashit a certain threshold and we
need to build more chargers, butthere's not available power,
then the ROI on on the microgrid like and installing a
battery starts to make a littlebit more sense. Okay,
Tim Montague (16:40):
and what kind of traction Are you getting?
Aubrey Gunnels (16:44):
It's it's been interesting. I would say one
ever like everyone is interestedin providing the best amenity to
their to their residents and tostay competitive in the space.
And they're certainly it's beingit's very competitive to have
chargers at your property, andpeople do make decisions based
off of it. There is a recentsurvey from Gray star that 27%
(17:06):
of renters care if there's an EVcharger or not at their
properties. So but also our theasset management teams of of
these large real estate REITshave a lot going on, and EV
charging is not normally in thetop five. So it's really moving
through the process to to makeit a priority, to to really make
(17:29):
a compelling case of why this isneeds to be addressed today,
rather than waiting anotheryear. I would also say we have a
number of clients that havetried a rollout process, and it
was really burdensome, and havehad just like bad experiences
trying to make this work acrosstheir portfolios, and the ROI
(17:50):
is, again, pretty light thatthey're really looking for an
outsourced solution, that it'sour sole job is to make sure
those charges are working andProviding a reliable amenity.
Tim Montague (18:01):
And is your business model to own the
charging infrastructure oreventually sell it to the
facility owner?
Aubrey Gunnels (18:08):
We'll own it over the life of the asset,
we'll continue to own them.
Tim Montague (18:11):
Got it. So check out 3v infrastructure. Just like
it sounds normal,3vinfrastructure.com. You'll
immediately see what we'retalking about here. There's a
great shot of a parking deck,obviously inside some kind of a
high rise building, and you'vegot a bunch of green painted
(18:31):
parking spots with conduitrunning down the poles the
columns in the DAT in theparking structure so it, it
looks like it works pretty well.
It's, it's, you know, it itfolds into the existing
infrastructure pretty nicely, inmy opinion. Of course, it's a
lot of electrical work, but say,La vie, right, that's what we're
(18:55):
talking about. And I wouldimagine that this amenity for
consumers, allows them to, youknow, charge more or promote the
property as a luxury property,perhaps. So what is the response
you're getting from the multifamily real estate owners?
Aubrey Gunnels (19:17):
Um, as far as
Tim Montague (19:20):
well. How do they, how do they see this? Do they
get this light bulb that forthe, you know, for example, that
I just had about, well, yeah,this is a nice amenity. People
are going to elect, you know,buy EVs, despite the ups and
downs right there, there's,there's turbulence in the
electrification oftransportation market. Companies
(19:42):
are coming and going, butthere's going to be this long
term trend because of the costof EVs, right? Ultimately, EVs
are going to be much moreeconomical to own and operate
for consumers and fleet owners,period, if you were moving
parts. Works, lower cost ofenergy. Boom done. Happens,
(20:04):
right? You can't stop thistransition. It. You can. You can
accelerate it by providingincentives. And that's what
Northern Europe has done, andmaybe some states and cities in
the US have done this, but wedon't have great incentives. I
don't know from yourperspective, what you think
about the incentives for EVinfrastructure, but yeah, how do
(20:26):
the real estate owners respondto this? Yeah,
Aubrey Gunnels (20:30):
definitely. I can address both. I would say
they definitely. Real estateowners try to increase noi,
which is basically how much theyare providing enterprise value
to their to their buildings inorder to like that is the real
estate market, right? Becausethey buy and sell a lot and
things of that nature to staycompetitive in the space. And EV
(20:52):
chargers do add to in a line. Soit's the availability of the
best amenities, and reliableamenities is certainly something
they're interested in. They alsowould never want to lose a
potential resident because theydidn't have chargers there. And
especially if it's anachievable, it's very achievable
to install chargers there. Sowe're definitely getting like
(21:16):
they see the need as much as wesee the need, and they're very
amenable to trying to do a fullscale rollout,
Tim Montague (21:23):
is there other infrastructure that they're
installing in their facilitiesthat's analogous where there's a
third party ownedinfrastructure?
Aubrey Gunnels (21:31):
Laundry is kind of the best analogy. I would
say, if you have shared laundryservice that's completely,
normally, completely outsourced,and someone maintains those over
time, and it's, you know, fullfunction, that's one of the
older ones. And then there'salso things like package
lockers, that is also kind ofsimilar, because they're owned
by an outside party, they get acut of the profit share and
(21:55):
things like that. So what
Tim Montague (21:56):
about, what about incentives we, you know, is the
IRA juicing this industry,
Aubrey Gunnels (22:03):
I would say largely, one, 3v we under at
this business, wrote that wasthat with with turbulence in
mind, it's a space that we'veseen a lot of players come and
go, and that is because and sowe are really conservative in
how we looked at the business toTo get into it. So we are not
directly like reliant on onsubsidies. We'll take free money
(22:25):
all day long. But that is notnecessarily what's driving our
economics, I would say, from aand I would also the level two
space was largely, I don't wantto say forgotten, but forgotten.
And the inflation Reduction Actand the infrastructure bill,
they it was really aroundproviding reliable public level
(22:47):
three supercharging in areasthat the private sector wouldn't
touch. So those programs areimportant, but just further
makes the case of why privatecharging is even more important
now, as we go through shifts inWashington, and I would say that
actually the most meaningfulsubsidies out there are through
(23:08):
utilities. Utilities are veryand various utilities around the
US, whether it's Excel PG and etcetera, are really trying to
make sure that as we build outEV charging infrastructure, it's
done in a reliable way that theyhave some control over, and
that's really created moresubsidies available in that
capacity as well the inflationReduction Act. What impacts us
(23:31):
the most is we care aboutaffordable EVs, and as
affordable EVs continue to hitthe market that is reliant on
batteries, battery factories tocontinue to come online in the
US and really watching out forhow these EV factories continue
to be built, that some of thatis coming from both chips and
the inflation Reduction
Tim Montague (23:50):
Act. Quite a bit of turbulence in the battery
industry too. I just noted thatfryer, the Norwegian battery
company that was going to builda giga factory in Georgia to
make batteries here in the UShas rebranded, I think it's
something like 3t I can'tremember exactly, but they're a
solar company now they're notjust a battery company. And,
(24:17):
yeah, I guess, what is Americadoing right to make this to ease
this transition, and what do weneed to do better? Let's
Aubrey Gunnels (24:29):
see what. I guess, from the battery side, we
like. Battery prices aredropping significantly every
year, and that's the main costof an eV so as we see those
drive down, the cost of EVs aregoing to drive down, I would say
what a lot of questions we getare, what does the EV market
look like, like under this newadministration? And the answer
is, it's still up and to theright. The question is, how to
(24:50):
the right and how up? And thatis really driven by, you know,
the US automotive sector is, isvery asked, if you could put.
With China. China can createelectric vehicles for cheaper
than we can create ice vehicles,so combustion engine vehicles.
And if they want to compete on aglobal scale, they need to
(25:12):
continue to their path towardcreating the best, the latest
and greatest EV models. Andevery report and narrative right
now is very much saying thateven like Jim, for instance, has
come out very strongly thatthey're going to continue their
EV program in the same likecaliber. So it's and it's not,
(25:33):
and no EV person is sitting herebeing like 100% of the US fleet
is going to be EV, even if 20%of the EV of the US fleet so all
vehicles on the road are EV thatis 20% of cars need to be able
to have a place to to get fuel,and that is EV charging. So we
think that's really important.
And then as we see publicprograms go away, we really need
(25:55):
to prioritize getting privateinvestment in the EV space, and
to not be scared of the space.
The space is certainly stillgrowing, and the underwriting is
not simple, but it's certainlyachievable if, if everyone
takes, you know, a finance eyeto it. So
Tim Montague (26:17):
what else should our listeners know in our last
couple of minutes together,Aubrey,
Aubrey Gunnels (26:21):
let's see one they should buy an EV, unless,
and if they live in a singlefamily and they live in a multi
family building, they shouldabsolutely contact their
property manager, who shouldcontact their property owner,
who should say that they shouldgo talk to 3v I think the more
that we can also create demandis, the faster our clients are
(26:42):
ready to move. So sure, the morethat you know it's asked for,
the more it helps us, I guess.
But obviously, I'm just tryingto put charges in the ground,
and I think the I think we willcontinue to see a very large
shift in available EV chargersin the US, and that will just
give consumers more confidenceto buy an EV, and the more that
we can have reliable informationon how to take care of an eV.
(27:08):
And things like when you rent anEV, to have that experience to
be even better than I think, oreven it's been interesting to
even see like Uber is a lot oftimes the first time people ever
ride a Tesla, and that createsmore drive in the market, and
the more that we can exposepeople that EVs are really great
cars and Vulcan and again, themore that we can drive adoption
(27:33):
is really what we're after. But
Tim Montague (27:36):
I take a lot of Ubers, and I travel around the
country quite a bit. The onlystate where I see a lot of
electric Ubers is California,New York. There's quite a bit
now too. California didincentivize EV sales, and they
are, I think they're stillsunsetting ice engine sales. Are
(27:58):
they not
Aubrey Gunnels (27:59):
think it's gonna that's gonna be pushed back, but
I would say, regardless ofincentives, there's gonna be
plenty of adoption. So yeah,yeah. So
Tim Montague (28:12):
is there when you when, when analysts look at the
adoption of EVs, like the salesof EVs versus infrastructure?
Are they tracking well enough,or is infrastructure lagging?
Infrastructure
Aubrey Gunnels (28:26):
is severely lagging, and that's for a
variety. Yeah, okay,
Tim Montague (28:32):
hence the business opportunity. Yes, anything else?
Aubrey Gunnels (28:38):
No, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to
me. It's also fine. Your name isTim. My dad's name is Tim.
Awesome.
Tim Montague (28:44):
You know, I love running into other Tims. Well,
check out all of our content atcleanpowerhour.com reach out to
me on LinkedIn. I love hearingfrom my listeners. You can also
find us at cleanpowerhour.comGive us a rating and review on
Apple or Spotify. Follow us onYouTube and Aubrey, how can our
listeners find you
Aubrey Gunnels (29:04):
LinkedIn, or you can find me on the website?
Tim Montague (29:09):
Awesome with that, I will say I'm Tim Montague.
Let's grow solar and storage.
Thank you so much. Aubreygunnels, you.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!