May 20, 2025 • 43 mins
On the latest Clean Power Live, Tim Montague and John Weaver dive into the cutting-edge developments from InterSolar Europe 2025 and discuss critical US clean energy policy challenges. John shares his first-hand experiences from the conference, highlighting how the battery revolution is transforming the renewable energy landscape, with batteries now taking up more exhibition space than traditional solar technology…
Highlights
- Battery Revolution Takes Center Stage: At InterSolar Europe 2025, batteries and battery-adjacent technologies now occupy more exhibition space than traditional solar equipment, signaling a major industry shift (PV Magazine).
- Next-Generation Battery Technology: CATL showcased an ultra-dense 9MWh battery container, while sodium batteries emerge as a potential lithium alternative despite current cost and lifespan limitations (ESS News).
- Solar & Tech Innovation Continues: New developments include flexible colored solar panels exceeding 20% efficiency, laser wind measurement systems providing 5-10 minute warning of damaging winds, and automated cleaning robots for arid region installations.
- Hotel Solar Carport Project: Weaver’s 690 kW commercial project is progressing toward Q3 2025 completion despite excavation challenges (LinkedIn).
- IRA Under Threat: Proposed legislation could undermine the Inflation Reduction Act, which has spurred $321 billion in domestic clean energy investments, by imposing unworkable supply chain verification requirements (Canary Media).
- Battery Tariff Developments: Tariffs on Chinese battery imports have been reduced from 145% to 60%, though industry experts estimate effective tariffs remain at 40-65% when all categories are considered (Energy Storage News).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Montague (00:02):
Welcome to clean power live. It's Friday May 16,
breaking down the latest insolar, solar, storage and and
other other clean energytechnologies on a bi weekly
basis with my co host, JohnWeiner, welcome back, John. Hey
John Weaver (00:19):
Timothy. I see I went to inter solar in Europe.
It was really cool.
Tim Montague (00:25):
And Iceland, right, right. Which Iceland
wasn't Iceland cooler?
John Weaver (00:29):
Yes, absolutely, in many ways. And so I'm gonna go
back to Iceland now for like aweek, do it properly. Now that I
got the proper sizing andtasting of the place. It's
really close to where I live.
I'm in Boston. It's true. Yeah,just go right over the hill sort
of, kind of, is the way I wassaying it to myself, because,
(00:52):
you know, whatever you
Tim Montague (00:55):
could stop off on Greenland on your way if you
wanted to. I got to see thesouth coast of Greenland on our
flight back from Iceland lastyear, I went to Iceland for a
week, for a week, and Greenland,Greenland really, really rugged
and mountainous and icy ocean.
Not the case in Iceland. Youknow, they're opposite rights,
right? Greenland is more icy.
(01:16):
Iceland is more green. Green itwas a marketing, marketing ploy
by Eric the red I read it right,right, crazy, like who got
banished Greenland and then hada bunch of Icelanders to come to
Greenland.
John Weaver (01:30):
Wow. When I flew back, we did a layover in
Iceland. I did on the way over,is when I stopped at in Iceland,
but I caught a picture of thelargest glacier, the one that's
on the east, south ish, and at
Tim Montague (01:49):
the end it says, And so,
John Weaver (01:56):
back to Chicago time. I have no idea. I didn't
even I can't even remember itbecause I didn't try. Went
nowhere in went nowhere into mybrain. It just started with
letter V. They're like, 12letters, pretty
Tim Montague (02:07):
cool. It's got to be one of the craziest languages
I've ever seen, Icelandic. It'san Old Norse language. It's
cool. It's cool. I
John Weaver (02:18):
think it's cool.
And
Tim Montague (02:22):
the food was really good, really good. I
remember that. And expensive.
John Weaver (02:27):
Yes, everything was expensive. The I had the hot
dogs, which were great, justbecause they were, like, you
know, Icelandic hot dogs. Ihope, hope they were cool and,
and fish. I had lots of goodfish. I was happy with eating
fish. That was my those are mygoals. There might be
Tim Montague (02:48):
people eat horses.
Horses could survive. Cows don'tsurvive. I saw
John Weaver (03:01):
more sheep. I don't think I remember seeing any
cats, lot
Tim Montague (03:04):
of sheep. Sheep, lot of sheep. Yeah, that's
John Weaver (03:08):
what I thought the hot dogs were made out of. But
who knows.
Tim Montague (03:12):
You never know what the hot dog so, what about
inner solar? How was that? Wasthat,
John Weaver (03:20):
uh, InterSolar was cool. Um, I guess the super high
level thing is I need to getbetter at batteries. I have a
couple of links to articles Iwrote on it. We could cover
later. We want we could cover itnow. Um, it was getting pretty
big. There's 18 rooms, and eachroom is a giant conference hall,
you know, 100 feet by 200 feetor something, some giant room,
(03:41):
and now there's 18 of them full.
The first six are focused onsolar. The next row of six, like
the first four, were batteries,and then other stuff near
batteries. And then, like in thenext row, like three or four
were battery related. Socharging mobility, you know,
house control systems, thingslike that, so like battery
(04:05):
adjacent. So one could argue,the conversation has now it's
now more space is dedicated tonon pure solar, solar racking
inverters. There's at thisconference a third at the most,
was pure solar could have beenmore there could have been more
racking, but, you know, forpurpose of being entertaining on
(04:26):
the show, that's what I wouldsay.
Tim Montague (04:32):
But so do you think this is just like, like a
natural trend that you knowsolar and batteries is like the
core, and then we spread outinto electrification,
electrication, transportation,Ev, everything. And EV,
charging, charging, and thenalso all this other stuff,
style, controlling, drone,environment you're putting your
(04:53):
building basically, is that? Howfar it's going to be too? I
guess it already is. I.
John Weaver (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, we're in the midst of the battery
revolution, like we're in themidst of that funky spot on the
curve where it like, and I'veshown this to somebody like the
I'm wondering what the documentis going to say next year from
Bloomberg BNEF, because everyyear they do the global price of
batteries. And like, two yearsago, was like 165 then it fell
(05:23):
to 144 but then with COVID, itjumped back to 155 and last year
went down to like 134 this yearit's gonna go like 100 Yeah. So,
oh, this is the battery. Morebattery focused one, yeah, the
calcium. That was
Tim Montague (05:38):
funny, yeah. So we'll go to it.
John Weaver (05:42):
Oh, to it. Oh, you can scroll down really fast to
it. It's within here. It justshows a guy dress up as a cow.
But really what their product isevermore. So they make some
components within batteries, andthey, one of them needs a nice
pure carbon as its output. And Ithink, what is the process? What
is it? Binder so bindermaterial, anode, binder
(06:02):
material, I, you know, it was, Ihope I did it right. Wasn't
cathode versus the anode, but itwas binder material that they
make. And they were findingthat, specifically, cowboy grass
put out a product that might be50% cheaper to get then, and
it's just one sub component ofmany. So it's not like 50% it's
(06:23):
going to drop the battery 50%Yeah, they'll drop quarter of a
percent. But whatever it iscoming from cow poop, hopefully,
because I want to write thatstory in the future. So no, this
is a more story that matters. Isright above it, tenor. Tenor.
This is, yes, sir. This is anine megawatt hour battery. It's
(06:44):
a two piece battery, actually,if you notice, you can see
there's two chunks of containerthere. They depend upon each
other to exist. They are notsingle existent units. That is
one unit. It's a 20 footcontainer footprint, but it's
(07:05):
taller. Well, there's
Tim Montague (07:06):
usually batteries, I mean, yeah, PCs, sorry, power
control system is that? Is thatcase or
John Weaver (07:16):
I think they're vertical, with battery packs
being pullable. And then in thecenter there's lots of control
systems. So each one of thesethings are open. There may be
battery packs on each row, butthat's part of their their
magic. So that that unit is anultra dense unit from the
leading company, C, A, T, L, ifI were to go to China, I'd want
(07:37):
to go hang out at their factoryand just stare and hang out with
their R D people and see whatkind of cool stuff they're
doing. And that's that's and sobatteries. This is me too. I
like this a lot. This was acreative implementation of a
multi car system that has a fiveitem bill of materials. Now you
(07:59):
may need like 88 of them, butfor installing this,
Tim Montague (08:03):
so it's like modularly charged charging where
they're putting the puttingclose to the parking spot. Deal
to deal absolutely,
John Weaver (08:12):
yeah, 1d No.
Technically up to, like 53 carsper row, but they definitely
won't be getting a full charge.
And it had smart charging. Hewas telling me how, in the cold
you can't really charge abattery at a low rate, because
once you start trying to chargeit, it's key that you warm it.
And warming it costs a certainamount. But the rate of
(08:34):
charging, if it's too slow, itwon't warm it enough, so then it
pulls up more. So he said, fourKW is this base number. So if
you, let's say you have like, 10cars, you would think, Oh, let's
charge them all at 2.2 now itwon't even work. You'll actually
lose energy. You have to, andthey're based, I think in
Sweden, you have to, in theNordic environments program,
(08:56):
then to charge at at least 10per unit, 15 per unit, maybe
even all 22 so that the heatingcost actually goes down from the
process of charging at a highrate. So instead of spending
four kW, it only charges at onekW, because you're like, boom.
So there's a company
Tim Montague (09:15):
called society.
Oh, except society article, lookat that. Just call it. That.
John Weaver (09:24):
Thank you. You're
Tim Montague (09:30):
Hired, all right.
The link in the show in Maymagazine, scooters, also
scooters in the world. I mean, Imean, so
John Weaver (09:46):
pretty, though, just looking at it was gorgeous,
but fine, I guess
Tim Montague (09:50):
I don't know. Man, oh, man, curver, curve. I guess
you're sitting. Is it meant?
Anymore? Sitting?
John Weaver (09:59):
You could. Get into Hunter, but it looks cool. Yeah,
definitely, the rims were neat.
The rims were, like, sweetlooking. I guess maybe I was
just like, oh, I don't have coolscooter in my life. Tim, I got a
bicycle. It's old, it's beat up.
It's got lots of safety tape onit, so don't get hit by a car.
Tim Montague (10:20):
Well, you need a scooter, Scooter. John, that's
all
John Weaver (10:24):
take a date on a scooter. You did another
Tim Montague (10:27):
story? Story, I don't know.
John Weaver (10:30):
Yes, we do this on facts. Those are sodium
batteries. Tim, the world isthinking about moving from
lithium to sodium, and there arereal life sodium batteries
existed, installed and running,they're probably twice as
expensive and have 1/5 of thelife of a current lithium, which
is pretty badass these days, butI don't 1/5 is right, maybe
(10:53):
half, but they're out there,
Tim Montague (10:55):
and where's some from? Oh,
John Weaver (10:59):
I believe this is an Australian group, okay?
Tim Montague (11:13):
I
John Weaver (11:15):
see the subgroup spin it one more time. Sorry.
Everybody watching some do breakdance on his hands. In case
you're listening, there's a sungrows sign. So we're getting
them some, uh, some advertising.
Wait, no. Tim, do you work for?
Do you work with, uh, Sungrowers? No, you work with CPS.
I work with
Tim Montague (11:33):
CPS, yes, but yeah, it wasn't, definitely, it
wasn't very good branding.
John Weaver (11:40):
Good for me. So Asa, that's cool battery. Those
are pretty neat because some ofthem were over 20% efficiency.
So we're looking at a green, ablue and a goldenish, flexible
solar panel. And they're, youknow, colored panels. Now,
esthetics, you could, you know,if those things were right
(12:01):
price, you could just hang themlike a giant flag or something.
I don't know you could. Youcould do something cool with
that. They're above 20% theydon't have to be perfect
anymore.
Tim Montague (12:14):
Your Honor energy, Your Honor energy, is the name
of this.
Unknown (12:18):
Yeah,
Tim Montague (12:20):
green. Huh,
John Weaver (12:23):
yeah, oh, no. I don't know if I asked. I think I
just went straight for theefficiency and I didn't care.
Yeah, maybe click on it, see ifthere, see if we can zoom in on
that module, see if it sayslike, perk or something. But we
could poke around and find outif we wanted, yeah, it was neat
(12:45):
that I my biggest happiness wasseeing a colored product, well
of colored, flexible product,well over 20% I thought that was
the kicker of that. It's like,wow, this has some esthetic
potential, and it's well over20% so yeah,
Tim Montague (13:04):
you can see clouding and building in that,
in that, in that stuff, right?
John Weaver (13:09):
Yes, yes. And didn't you have a friend who's
an architectural guy,architectural solar person, not
friend, but a company you'reworking with?
Tim Montague (13:18):
Yeah, back in the day, years ago, years ago. All
right, that was
John Weaver (13:23):
Oh goodness,
Tim Montague (13:25):
but they're out there. They're out there the
project.
John Weaver (13:29):
But, you know, I'm thinking of a different person
that's I consulted with. Sothey're out there. What about
the wind cube, sheets, lasers?
So out of
Tim Montague (13:41):
that little No,
John Weaver (13:43):
no, this to pick up pieces of dust that represents
wind movement.
Tim Montague (13:50):
So it's measuring, measuring, wearing the wind.
Yes,
John Weaver (13:54):
it's essentially, it's measuring the wind by
shooting lasers to pick up dust.
And its purpose is pretty cool.
It's, it's a local hard datatool. So it's a six figure
system that gets implemented onthe leading edge of a smaller
plant or spread amongst a largerplant. Yeah, yeah. That figures
(14:18):
out what wind is about 10 to 15.
Do I say five to 10 or 10 to 15?
There's a specific number. Hegave a five to 10 Minute
advanced warning, yeah, yeah,against potentially damaging
winds. So that's its purpose.
That's its purpose of existencein relation
Tim Montague (14:37):
to solar source,
John Weaver (14:39):
yeah. So you have your wind radar stuff, which
will give you a broader picturewhen hail or heavy wind are
coming, and then when you wantto, like, know if that wind is
exactly hitting your site in thenext five to 10 minutes. Put
this fellow, what they said isput it out. Prevailing wind
(15:00):
corner or in that area? Yeah,
Tim Montague (15:06):
I don't, I don't understand why, why this is just
like because all these, allthese farms, also
John Weaver (15:17):
correct. But this one, I think the fact that they
have the laser lets it pick upthe dust particles further,
versus an on site spinner. But Ididn't really ask aggressively
on that one. I just said, Okay,so this ties into the standard
SCADA, because he had one rightthere. And so they do both, but,
(15:39):
um, but this one, you know,that's what he pissed now, its
purpose is to give you a five to10 Minute lead time on the
oncoming went and so I thinkthat's the key, yeah, pretty
cool piece of gear.
Tim Montague (15:55):
All right, clean up. Clean out. I guys anyway,
tell us about it.
John Weaver (16:13):
This is an arid region, automated overnight,
yeah, yeah, cleaning system,that
Tim Montague (16:20):
thing we're looking at. Robot, yes, it
looks, it looks unwieldy,wieldy, but, but
John Weaver (16:30):
I don't know, big, clunky robot. That's maybe the
easiest type of robot.
Tim Montague (16:36):
Yeah, it's gonna drive around the rows of panels
and clean, clean them, yeah,with a dry brush or a wet brush.
John Weaver (16:44):
This is a dry brush, yeah? So this is for
aired regions. Apparently youcan't use a dry brush in other
regions, because the humiditystarts to have an effect pretty
quickly. They also you can do itwith a wet brush through this
system, because I asked thatquestion, yeah. However, they
(17:05):
said you got to have a vehiclefollowing it, because this it's
not strong enough to pull waterat this power level. So in the
daytime, if you have it cleaningthat it's solar powered, and it
works. And they said you mightwant to have the batteries full,
but it can knock out a couplemegawatts in the daytime. And,
you know, 345, 10, without usingit, with being pure solar, he
(17:28):
gave me some numbers. I put thenumbers in the thing so three
megawatt, three megawatt brushcan do up to five megs, three
meter brush can do up to fivemegs, and the larger one can do
up to 10 nights, and
Tim Montague (17:42):
where's country, country?
John Weaver (17:45):
Oh, one of those countries in that union of
Europeans,
Tim Montague (17:51):
the Baltic.
Baltic. No, I don't know.
John Weaver (17:55):
Yeah, click on the internet and find out. No
Tim Montague (17:57):
worries. No worries. Anything else. We
should probably if there'sanything else beer, beer is
always a good beer.
John Weaver (18:04):
There's always good beer to be had.
Tim Montague (18:05):
How was that? Was the beer? The
John Weaver (18:07):
beer was wonderful.
I have an appreciation for like,5% Pilsner, I guess is what it
is. Just got great taste. Everwhiner? I don't know there's a
whiner beer. Somebody, the guyswho I was with from PB magazine
knew exactly what to order,
Tim Montague (18:25):
so I had some good beer. Is this the same one
John Weaver (18:32):
for Yes, sir. It looks like it's evolving to new
cell types into half cells,
Tim Montague (18:39):
solely there's no regional, region, right, right?
John Weaver (18:43):
Well, I think so. I think the distributor, and I
think salon might be theproduct, but I'm confused by
that actually, because Iactually switched it here. If
you zoom scroll down, outeveryone, there's a magazine
there where it shows and you canzoom in on the magazine, and it
has the name of the product soldon everything so, so good
product. I liked it. There wasbig. There's a lot of things
(19:04):
there. My biggest emotion isthat I should learn a lot about
batteries. Learn how to buildsome batteries, learn how to
research some batteries. Becausethat's, yeah, yeah, that's the
next solar. So to say, for sure,sure, solar plus storage is the
next solar and the next storage.
You know, solar plus storage. Sowe got to get good at all those.
And
Tim Montague (19:25):
I think, I think solar installers are going to be
installing more batteries thansolar in the next five years,
five years. And it's one ofthese, one of these point things
where you don't see it coming.
I'm just it, just and then it,and then it's all battle
batteries.
John Weaver (19:41):
I like your hopefulness that we're going to
be installing in five years.
Yeah.
Tim Montague (19:47):
Well, what are we doing? Doing?
John Weaver (19:51):
We're fighting the war.
Tim Montague (19:52):
Drinking. Beer.
Beer. Freedom man. Oh, freedom,war. Yeah. Hopefully
John Weaver (20:00):
not. Yeah, keep working. Tim, keep working.
How's the pickleball business?
Tim, your fans want to know.
Tim, how's the pickleballbusiness?
Tim Montague (20:08):
It's coming slowly, slowly, very slowly. I
am still a developer, but, man,I'm taking my lumps, lumps. It's
a risky business. Understand,I've got skin in the game and
risk on the table, but I'm stillhoping that the project, project
is going to see the light delay.
John Weaver (20:31):
All right, wouldn't be investing if it wasn't some
risk there. So yep,
Tim Montague (20:37):
yep. Should we talk about what's going on in
Washington or the hotel project,or DC?
John Weaver (20:46):
Yeah, let's go.
Well, let's see the hotelprojects, just so we have
something like positive and niceto talk about, yeah, then we can
talk about DC. And, you know,let's deal with our
Tim Montague (20:57):
so, our project, and this is a looks like, yes,
John Weaver (21:05):
sir, yes, sir. Can you? Can you see our beautiful
pictures? I just we saw thepictures today this, I think
this was the constructionmanager visiting two days ago,
checking in on stuff. And itjust looks so nice and bright of
a location. And it was like, Oh,look at that. And it's a parking
lot. It's been a parking lot formany years. When we dug it up,
(21:27):
there was something underneathit. We found, like building
pipes. So maybe it was abuilding before. No idea. Now,
it's like a Hunt Club. And lookat that sunlight, and look at
that carport, and you know,we're gonna start. You can see
in the back, if you see all theway in the back, in the center,
it looks like just thicker Gray,but that's actually us starting
to do the purlins, thestructural cross beams at the
(21:50):
beginning, because we're donewith putting the big steel in
the ground, in the ground. Andso now it's time to lay the top
layers. And it just looks nice.
I just look with a beautifulimage.
Tim Montague (22:03):
Who's these?
Manufacturer?
John Weaver (22:06):
This is solar mounts based out of Michigan,
big, chunky, flexible system.
Key detail we learned is thatyou have to drill holes. They
give you flexibility and thatyour modules can move, but that
means they're not machinepunching the holes for modules
in the factory. You gotta havethe hours budgeted for that
(22:29):
process. And you know, but youlearn, you learn, you get the
tool, you get your technique,start hammering. Yeah, yeah. And
just, it's just nice looking. Iwas just happy with the color of
the sky, the look of the steel,the progress. This was actually
so our prior project, we took,we filled up 110% of our
(22:51):
excavation budget, plus somebecause we had flooding, which
was fair for us to deal with.
But then the other half was thatthe the ground surveys didn't
catch the ledge. At the ratethat we hit ledge, we expected
to have some so we had themachine on. But what do you
mean? Oh, rock rock, certainrock rock that has to be broken
(23:14):
with a big machine.
Tim Montague (23:17):
Rock, rock, the ground, yeah. But
John Weaver (23:20):
ledge, I believe, is a certain type, yeah. So you
know that
Tim Montague (23:25):
was painful, painful. You had to drill it,
John Weaver (23:39):
big machine making sure we broke it once we had to
fix it, but, but that, yeah, soit's a nice chunk of chunk of
stuff. So if everything else
Tim Montague (23:49):
goes, everything else goes well, when will this
project, project see electricitygrid,
John Weaver (23:58):
September and lucky world. October, you know,
because we have to do somemedium voltage work. The utility
has already done theirinterconnection. We gotta do
some transformers. Gonna do apad. It's gonna take a while to
put 690 kW of modules up whenwe're drilling holes for all of
them, because it's just, youknow, X amount of hours to put
(24:20):
that up. So, yeah, so I think weshould be done. You know, could
be touching the grid in and whatI mean by that, you know,
switches can be thrown for it totest the systems, maybe June,
July, and then it'll be a couplemonths of paperwork. So, so q3
(24:40):
q3 is the, probably the probablythe hard goal. And there is a
hard goal, and I, I'menvisioning it end of September
for mechanical completion, but Ithink it's earlier than that for
reality. But we'll see. We'llsee. You know, there's always
something. There's always acomponent that's late, component
that's early. I. Just gotta pushthrough projects.
Tim Montague (25:04):
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, DC, I mean, there's
going on the IRA is underattack. There was a deal mail in
China, but in DC, on this, thereis a bill that is going to
(25:28):
potentially, and the good newsis reported today, right? That
this, this has been shotdowntown, rarely, yeah, so this
story, media, media is thetitle, energy, energy and, and,
(25:52):
you know, the the thing thing inthis story that really, that
really stands out as that thethe IRA encouraged 300 $321
billion in domestic, domesticclean energy projects, and now
that is at risk, right, right?
And there was another, another522 million private, private by
(26:14):
the private sector. Now the GOP,GOP bill this, this could
disrupt this economic, economicdevelopment, and this includes
factories, factories, right?
Solar Panel, panel, batteries,batteries, EV charging,
(26:36):
infrastructure, structure, allkinds of factories. And then
also projects, I think it'sright, that are used.
John Weaver (26:48):
Yeah. So first off, though, this article, it's,
there's, there's two things weshould talk about. One is this
within the IRA so thereconciliation bill version was
put out by the house. Oneversion of it. And I don't know
if it's gone to the floor, butit's it's coming out of
different departments, and Ithink this bill was one vote
against one piece of it. I'm notcertain where we talked about
(27:09):
the vote against it today, butwhen we talk about this poison
pill, let's talk about thatfirst. So the poison pill says
that no project can receivefederal funding, essentially
that has hardware that comesthrough these groups, these
countries, and one of them isChina, one of them is Russia.
(27:30):
And here's the nuance where itgets to be unusual. Slash
poison. It's that the way thelanguage is put it in it allows
the government to force you toverify, to force you to verify
all components and all of theirsupply chain has, yeah, yeah,
(27:53):
and that right there is The keyunworkableness, because right
now POA, the Uyghur protectiondocumentation that is pushing
against China. It's easier tomanage there, because you're
(28:15):
just talking silicon and thenwafers and then cells. But if
you think about an inverter andall the places that has to come
from, and what stack ofpaperwork you would need to get
through customs, and and thenCustoms has to approve it. So
it's not like, by defaultapproved. They have to be like
approved. And so it, it's goingto cause challenges. And and
(28:43):
we're gonna see, we're gonna seeif that exists. So that's the
first time is dealing with that,this foreign thing. And then, I
don't know if you noticed, butat the same time, Reuters just
came out with a story sayingthey found shutdown devices and
Chinese inverters. Yeah,
Tim Montague (29:01):
companies, companies, of course not. They
John Weaver (29:06):
didn't name the people who said it either. Tim I
think it's a lie. Just saying. Ithink think the game is on.
Timothy, yeah, there's anattack, attack from the side,
and they have to push thepolitics. I fully believe that
we are literally in the midst ofa concerted effort to undercut
this. It's that's too fun oftiming. I mean, maybe, maybe
(29:31):
Reuters decided to hold it, butwe'll see. So, so, so there's
little dance going on now.
There's, here's the second pieceabout this legislation that was
released, and I'm surprised hedidn't mention that this
legislation changes the IRA.
This legislation makes the IRA.
Are you talking about
Tim Montague (29:51):
country media story, or the blue sky? Sky
story? Talking
John Weaver (29:56):
about the canary media story? Okay, okay, the
same legislation that. Has thisfreedom. This is just one sub
component of the broader billbeing changed that I'm the IRA
is being changed. This documentchanges. It did you know that
they're getting rid of theresidential solar tax credit?
That's right,
Tim Montague (30:14):
right? That's the big news. I mean, it's both
commercial, commercial, so theresidential would go away 2025
and then, I think, thencommercial, commercial credit,
it starts
John Weaver (30:29):
phasing out in 2928 the last full year, okay, then
it starts going phase out 29 by20% another 20% uh, year after
year. Yeah, I don't think itever gets to 20% of the tax
credit. I think it goes straightfrom 40. So you got like 29 at
8030,
Tim Montague (30:51):
at and let's, let's remember, we've been here,
been here, right where the itIhas been phase faced, you know,
phasing out, and, and so it cancome back, but, but can be used,
but it's,
John Weaver (31:11):
yeah, and what we're talking about investments,
you know, these are five, youknow, the factory phase out,
paying for hardware started tophase out in 2930 it wasn't an
indefinite, paying forever andever for you to manufacture in
the US. It was through the endof the decade. So this might
(31:32):
have protected some of thefactory interests decently. I
don't know. Yeah, it's stilldancing, though it's not done.
It could get packed more forsolar, we could get hurt more,
yeah, but,
Tim Montague (31:42):
but anyway, there's good news out today,
right, that the sweeping billjust failed in the Budget
Committee 16 to 21 so, so youknow this, this hurts road state
states to phase out road statestates, yeah, and, and, you
(32:03):
know, you gotta have an economy,right, right, as much as you
might love what, what the Trumpadministration is doing, doing
you gotta have, gotta have, yougotta have jobs, jobs and
economic growth, growth and theITC going away is gonna as as
many, many mentioned, right?
Yeah, just, just crazy, crazy.
(32:29):
All right, all right. So wetalked about, about the tariff,
tariff war,
John Weaver (32:35):
yeah, I think that's the one I was paying
attention to right now, is thebattery tariffs. Because I'm I'm
trying my best to pay attentionto him. I want to be in the I
like the idea of being in thebattery space. So Tara forward
is, I guess. I
Tim Montague (32:52):
mean, it's great news we've had, had for a couple
of weeks now, 100 and 145% or135 5% from China, China, and
now they're now 60% which isgood, good. I mean, it's way
(33:13):
better, way better than what itwas was. And, I mean, I've been
talking chin tint. You know,they make batteries in China,
China and and most of those aremade in Thailand, Thailand, I
think, um, now we also, we alsohave tariffs, tariffs on
(33:34):
Thailand, Thailand, but, butless than, less than China,
China, and then. So anyway,yeah, five, 5%
John Weaver (33:46):
but for batteries, it's higher, yeah, yeah. Because
for batteries, they have othertariffs already in place. I
think it's a section, section301, section, something else to
something. So those two itemsgive me, you know, get us
(34:08):
somewhere per the article Ishared in the room. If you want
me to share it, I can because,because I like, I like that
website. So this,
Tim Montague (34:15):
this story.
Back to us. And then, thenthere's another, another story,
um, global average prices. Well,
John Weaver (34:35):
that's the one I was I wanted to bookend that
with. And so the energy storage,one of the second item though,
that they said is that they seetariffs around 40% right now on
batteries. Christian Rosalind,who's a good friend of mine, but
he's also an industry expert fortariff related stuff, but works
in DC a lot, he sees the tariffpercentage around 65% so that's
(34:57):
why I was wanting to show. Sharethis cost and imagining what the
real effect is if we startgetting cheaper battery prices
available, and what the realtariff would be, and what the
effective price would be,because if we start to say,
let's just say, let's just say,our Tariff with batteries end up
being 65% because of all thesex, because there's other
(35:19):
tariffs on batteries, just likethere are in solar panels,
because of the domesticimportance of it. But let's just
say it's 65% and then we look atthat list. Do you mind sharing
the Goldman Sachs? Oh, there itis. Perfect timing. And we see
that in 25 you know, let's say,for instance, 23 we see 140 to
180 let's or 160 to 170 oractually, that's probably closer
(35:44):
to 150 sorry, 2223 now to getback
Tim Montague (35:47):
to 150 ish, these are dollar
John Weaver (35:52):
dollars per kilowatt hour, yes. And if you
look here, it's the wholesystem. So other components.
This is shipping containerdelivered to port. Type of
thing, is my guess. And so toget back to 150 you probably
need to be at 80 if your tariffis 65 so eight times six is
(36:14):
four, eight That's five. Soeight plus 55 is 135 so if the
world is at 80, which issomewhere in 26 maybe then
interesting. Now we know thatBYD just did a massive bid that
(36:35):
was actually in the 66 range, no60 range, but that was for a
massive that was a gigawatt hourpurchase that wasn't one
shipping container. So 80 is arealistic number in China, on
the ground right now, deliveredto my warehouse. Probably I
(36:58):
could get to 85 100 I don'tknow. I've never purchased one
of these. You know, I want oneof those. See it Kato ones.
Those things don't exist. So,yeah, I know taxes. Thanks,
Randy. We appreciate it. So ifwe think about that price, that
price per kilowatt hour of wherewe are right now, you know, I
(37:19):
know there are people in the USsigning deals for under that 80
number today, and they have 80globally. That's a global
number. That's great. Globalaverage. We know China's below
80. So if there's aentrepreneurial person who's
knocking doors downtownShanghai, working hard, they're
getting containers at 7075, 80.
And if all that's working, thereare COVID Arrow pricing, which
(37:42):
is strong but survivable, Iguess. And that's if we hold it
65 oh, so that is my reasonyou're
Tim Montague (37:56):
talking about 6065 on the TerraForm kWh. 65%
John Weaver (38:04):
as the tariff.
Yeah, yeah. If we hold it 65%for importing batteries into the
US, then an 80 kW gets you, youknow, gets you the COVID error
number, yeah. I mean,
Tim Montague (38:18):
domestic battery manufacturing. Tesla's biggest
one. Good luck getting products.
That's the challenge. There issupply chain there and then, and
then you have building a batteryfactory. But if this legislation
goes through, they are not goingto energize that factory.
(38:39):
Factory, it ain't happening.
John Weaver (38:44):
So you should ask them their reaction to this. I
bet you they might be interestedin speaking in their voice out
there, because they're probablylooking at the manufacturer's
credits very explicitly. And Ithink I mentioned this earlier,
the manufacturing credits mayhave been phased out as well
from the other side, but to alesser degree, however, there's
something. There's anotherkiller in here. Transferability
(39:07):
is now getting to be harder andmaybe even phasing out sooner.
And the factory people reallywanted the transferability. That
was a massive driver. 90 cent onthe dollar, transferability was
golden for those folks. So well,they should be called. They
should be on the show to givethem right
Tim Montague (39:27):
want to call them right now, well, so I don't have
contact more
John Weaver (39:34):
anymore, all right.
Well,
Tim Montague (39:37):
it's originally a Norwegian region, Norwegian
region company, but they've justannounced that their, their
their new US headquarters isgoing to be in Texas, Austin,
Texas, and yeah, they bought asolar panel factory, solar
(39:59):
plant. It's another battery,battery company, company, yes,
John Weaver (40:04):
and I think they laid off. They had a Georgia
battery facility they werethinking about constructing in
Georgia. Is
Tim Montague (40:10):
Georgia happening?
I I think
John Weaver (40:13):
there's a chance they slowed down a bit on
Tim Montague (40:18):
that. Yeah, but
John Weaver (40:20):
I don't know. I don't know much. Yeah, yes, I
think I've seen them
Tim Montague (40:32):
songs on right, and I need to get two years ago
I hunkered down. Into solar lastyear, I need to pop my head up.
I had some more stores. So ifyou're if you're a storage
developer, OEM asset owner,please reach out. Reach out to
(40:55):
me. You can find all thiscontent. You can find me. Tim
Montague, John Weaver, can helpfind you. Find you.
John Weaver (41:03):
Commercial solar guy.com commercial solar
guy.com, we should get a cooljingle. Tim, clean power, power.
Tim Montague (41:13):
We share. This friend of mine is threatening to
ride your jingle for me, thereyou go. He's been threatening. I
John Weaver (41:21):
gotta give them some beer, beer and 50 bucks
getting roughers,
Tim Montague (41:29):
you know, all right. And in the meantime,
let's grow solar and storage.
Storage. Take care. Take care.
You.
Welcome to clean power live. It's Friday May 16,
breaking down the latest insolar, solar, storage and and
other other clean energytechnologies on a bi weekly
basis with my co host, JohnWeiner, welcome back, John. Hey
John Weaver (00:19):
Timothy. I see I went to inter solar in Europe.
It was really cool.
Tim Montague (00:25):
And Iceland, right, right. Which Iceland
wasn't Iceland cooler?
John Weaver (00:29):
Yes, absolutely, in many ways. And so I'm gonna go
back to Iceland now for like aweek, do it properly. Now that I
got the proper sizing andtasting of the place. It's
really close to where I live.
I'm in Boston. It's true. Yeah,just go right over the hill sort
of, kind of, is the way I wassaying it to myself, because,
(00:52):
you know, whatever you
Tim Montague (00:55):
could stop off on Greenland on your way if you
wanted to. I got to see thesouth coast of Greenland on our
flight back from Iceland lastyear, I went to Iceland for a
week, for a week, and Greenland,Greenland really, really rugged
and mountainous and icy ocean.
Not the case in Iceland. Youknow, they're opposite rights,
right? Greenland is more icy.
(01:16):
Iceland is more green. Green itwas a marketing, marketing ploy
by Eric the red I read it right,right, crazy, like who got
banished Greenland and then hada bunch of Icelanders to come to
Greenland.
John Weaver (01:30):
Wow. When I flew back, we did a layover in
Iceland. I did on the way over,is when I stopped at in Iceland,
but I caught a picture of thelargest glacier, the one that's
on the east, south ish, and at
Tim Montague (01:49):
the end it says, And so,
John Weaver (01:56):
back to Chicago time. I have no idea. I didn't
even I can't even remember itbecause I didn't try. Went
nowhere in went nowhere into mybrain. It just started with
letter V. They're like, 12letters, pretty
Tim Montague (02:07):
cool. It's got to be one of the craziest languages
I've ever seen, Icelandic. It'san Old Norse language. It's
cool. It's cool. I
John Weaver (02:18):
think it's cool.
And
Tim Montague (02:22):
the food was really good, really good. I
remember that. And expensive.
John Weaver (02:27):
Yes, everything was expensive. The I had the hot
dogs, which were great, justbecause they were, like, you
know, Icelandic hot dogs. Ihope, hope they were cool and,
and fish. I had lots of goodfish. I was happy with eating
fish. That was my those are mygoals. There might be
Tim Montague (02:48):
people eat horses.
Horses could survive. Cows don'tsurvive. I saw
John Weaver (03:01):
more sheep. I don't think I remember seeing any
cats, lot
Tim Montague (03:04):
of sheep. Sheep, lot of sheep. Yeah, that's
John Weaver (03:08):
what I thought the hot dogs were made out of. But
who knows.
Tim Montague (03:12):
You never know what the hot dog so, what about
inner solar? How was that? Wasthat,
John Weaver (03:20):
uh, InterSolar was cool. Um, I guess the super high
level thing is I need to getbetter at batteries. I have a
couple of links to articles Iwrote on it. We could cover
later. We want we could cover itnow. Um, it was getting pretty
big. There's 18 rooms, and eachroom is a giant conference hall,
you know, 100 feet by 200 feetor something, some giant room,
(03:41):
and now there's 18 of them full.
The first six are focused onsolar. The next row of six, like
the first four, were batteries,and then other stuff near
batteries. And then, like in thenext row, like three or four
were battery related. Socharging mobility, you know,
house control systems, thingslike that, so like battery
(04:05):
adjacent. So one could argue,the conversation has now it's
now more space is dedicated tonon pure solar, solar racking
inverters. There's at thisconference a third at the most,
was pure solar could have beenmore there could have been more
racking, but, you know, forpurpose of being entertaining on
(04:26):
the show, that's what I wouldsay.
Tim Montague (04:32):
But so do you think this is just like, like a
natural trend that you knowsolar and batteries is like the
core, and then we spread outinto electrification,
electrication, transportation,Ev, everything. And EV,
charging, charging, and thenalso all this other stuff,
style, controlling, drone,environment you're putting your
(04:53):
building basically, is that? Howfar it's going to be too? I
guess it already is. I.
John Weaver (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, we're in the midst of the battery
revolution, like we're in themidst of that funky spot on the
curve where it like, and I'veshown this to somebody like the
I'm wondering what the documentis going to say next year from
Bloomberg BNEF, because everyyear they do the global price of
batteries. And like, two yearsago, was like 165 then it fell
(05:23):
to 144 but then with COVID, itjumped back to 155 and last year
went down to like 134 this yearit's gonna go like 100 Yeah. So,
oh, this is the battery. Morebattery focused one, yeah, the
calcium. That was
Tim Montague (05:38):
funny, yeah. So we'll go to it.
John Weaver (05:42):
Oh, to it. Oh, you can scroll down really fast to
it. It's within here. It justshows a guy dress up as a cow.
But really what their product isevermore. So they make some
components within batteries, andthey, one of them needs a nice
pure carbon as its output. And Ithink, what is the process? What
is it? Binder so bindermaterial, anode, binder
(06:02):
material, I, you know, it was, Ihope I did it right. Wasn't
cathode versus the anode, but itwas binder material that they
make. And they were findingthat, specifically, cowboy grass
put out a product that might be50% cheaper to get then, and
it's just one sub component ofmany. So it's not like 50% it's
(06:23):
going to drop the battery 50%Yeah, they'll drop quarter of a
percent. But whatever it iscoming from cow poop, hopefully,
because I want to write thatstory in the future. So no, this
is a more story that matters. Isright above it, tenor. Tenor.
This is, yes, sir. This is anine megawatt hour battery. It's
(06:44):
a two piece battery, actually,if you notice, you can see
there's two chunks of containerthere. They depend upon each
other to exist. They are notsingle existent units. That is
one unit. It's a 20 footcontainer footprint, but it's
(07:05):
taller. Well, there's
Tim Montague (07:06):
usually batteries, I mean, yeah, PCs, sorry, power
control system is that? Is thatcase or
John Weaver (07:16):
I think they're vertical, with battery packs
being pullable. And then in thecenter there's lots of control
systems. So each one of thesethings are open. There may be
battery packs on each row, butthat's part of their their
magic. So that that unit is anultra dense unit from the
leading company, C, A, T, L, ifI were to go to China, I'd want
(07:37):
to go hang out at their factoryand just stare and hang out with
their R D people and see whatkind of cool stuff they're
doing. And that's that's and sobatteries. This is me too. I
like this a lot. This was acreative implementation of a
multi car system that has a fiveitem bill of materials. Now you
(07:59):
may need like 88 of them, butfor installing this,
Tim Montague (08:03):
so it's like modularly charged charging where
they're putting the puttingclose to the parking spot. Deal
to deal absolutely,
John Weaver (08:12):
yeah, 1d No.
Technically up to, like 53 carsper row, but they definitely
won't be getting a full charge.
And it had smart charging. Hewas telling me how, in the cold
you can't really charge abattery at a low rate, because
once you start trying to chargeit, it's key that you warm it.
And warming it costs a certainamount. But the rate of
(08:34):
charging, if it's too slow, itwon't warm it enough, so then it
pulls up more. So he said, fourKW is this base number. So if
you, let's say you have like, 10cars, you would think, Oh, let's
charge them all at 2.2 now itwon't even work. You'll actually
lose energy. You have to, andthey're based, I think in
Sweden, you have to, in theNordic environments program,
(08:56):
then to charge at at least 10per unit, 15 per unit, maybe
even all 22 so that the heatingcost actually goes down from the
process of charging at a highrate. So instead of spending
four kW, it only charges at onekW, because you're like, boom.
So there's a company
Tim Montague (09:15):
called society.
Oh, except society article, lookat that. Just call it. That.
John Weaver (09:24):
Thank you. You're
Tim Montague (09:30):
Hired, all right.
The link in the show in Maymagazine, scooters, also
scooters in the world. I mean, Imean, so
John Weaver (09:46):
pretty, though, just looking at it was gorgeous,
but fine, I guess
Tim Montague (09:50):
I don't know. Man, oh, man, curver, curve. I guess
you're sitting. Is it meant?
Anymore? Sitting?
John Weaver (09:59):
You could. Get into Hunter, but it looks cool. Yeah,
definitely, the rims were neat.
The rims were, like, sweetlooking. I guess maybe I was
just like, oh, I don't have coolscooter in my life. Tim, I got a
bicycle. It's old, it's beat up.
It's got lots of safety tape onit, so don't get hit by a car.
Tim Montague (10:20):
Well, you need a scooter, Scooter. John, that's
all
John Weaver (10:24):
take a date on a scooter. You did another
Tim Montague (10:27):
story? Story, I don't know.
John Weaver (10:30):
Yes, we do this on facts. Those are sodium
batteries. Tim, the world isthinking about moving from
lithium to sodium, and there arereal life sodium batteries
existed, installed and running,they're probably twice as
expensive and have 1/5 of thelife of a current lithium, which
is pretty badass these days, butI don't 1/5 is right, maybe
(10:53):
half, but they're out there,
Tim Montague (10:55):
and where's some from? Oh,
John Weaver (10:59):
I believe this is an Australian group, okay?
Tim Montague (11:13):
I
John Weaver (11:15):
see the subgroup spin it one more time. Sorry.
Everybody watching some do breakdance on his hands. In case
you're listening, there's a sungrows sign. So we're getting
them some, uh, some advertising.
Wait, no. Tim, do you work for?
Do you work with, uh, Sungrowers? No, you work with CPS.
I work with
Tim Montague (11:33):
CPS, yes, but yeah, it wasn't, definitely, it
wasn't very good branding.
John Weaver (11:40):
Good for me. So Asa, that's cool battery. Those
are pretty neat because some ofthem were over 20% efficiency.
So we're looking at a green, ablue and a goldenish, flexible
solar panel. And they're, youknow, colored panels. Now,
esthetics, you could, you know,if those things were right
(12:01):
price, you could just hang themlike a giant flag or something.
I don't know you could. Youcould do something cool with
that. They're above 20% theydon't have to be perfect
anymore.
Tim Montague (12:14):
Your Honor energy, Your Honor energy, is the name
of this.
Unknown (12:18):
Yeah,
Tim Montague (12:20):
green. Huh,
John Weaver (12:23):
yeah, oh, no. I don't know if I asked. I think I
just went straight for theefficiency and I didn't care.
Yeah, maybe click on it, see ifthere, see if we can zoom in on
that module, see if it sayslike, perk or something. But we
could poke around and find outif we wanted, yeah, it was neat
(12:45):
that I my biggest happiness wasseeing a colored product, well
of colored, flexible product,well over 20% I thought that was
the kicker of that. It's like,wow, this has some esthetic
potential, and it's well over20% so yeah,
Tim Montague (13:04):
you can see clouding and building in that,
in that, in that stuff, right?
John Weaver (13:09):
Yes, yes. And didn't you have a friend who's
an architectural guy,architectural solar person, not
friend, but a company you'reworking with?
Tim Montague (13:18):
Yeah, back in the day, years ago, years ago. All
right, that was
John Weaver (13:23):
Oh goodness,
Tim Montague (13:25):
but they're out there. They're out there the
project.
John Weaver (13:29):
But, you know, I'm thinking of a different person
that's I consulted with. Sothey're out there. What about
the wind cube, sheets, lasers?
So out of
Tim Montague (13:41):
that little No,
John Weaver (13:43):
no, this to pick up pieces of dust that represents
wind movement.
Tim Montague (13:50):
So it's measuring, measuring, wearing the wind.
Yes,
John Weaver (13:54):
it's essentially, it's measuring the wind by
shooting lasers to pick up dust.
And its purpose is pretty cool.
It's, it's a local hard datatool. So it's a six figure
system that gets implemented onthe leading edge of a smaller
plant or spread amongst a largerplant. Yeah, yeah. That figures
(14:18):
out what wind is about 10 to 15.
Do I say five to 10 or 10 to 15?
There's a specific number. Hegave a five to 10 Minute
advanced warning, yeah, yeah,against potentially damaging
winds. So that's its purpose.
That's its purpose of existencein relation
Tim Montague (14:37):
to solar source,
John Weaver (14:39):
yeah. So you have your wind radar stuff, which
will give you a broader picturewhen hail or heavy wind are
coming, and then when you wantto, like, know if that wind is
exactly hitting your site in thenext five to 10 minutes. Put
this fellow, what they said isput it out. Prevailing wind
(15:00):
corner or in that area? Yeah,
Tim Montague (15:06):
I don't, I don't understand why, why this is just
like because all these, allthese farms, also
John Weaver (15:17):
correct. But this one, I think the fact that they
have the laser lets it pick upthe dust particles further,
versus an on site spinner. But Ididn't really ask aggressively
on that one. I just said, Okay,so this ties into the standard
SCADA, because he had one rightthere. And so they do both, but,
(15:39):
um, but this one, you know,that's what he pissed now, its
purpose is to give you a five to10 Minute lead time on the
oncoming went and so I thinkthat's the key, yeah, pretty
cool piece of gear.
Tim Montague (15:55):
All right, clean up. Clean out. I guys anyway,
tell us about it.
John Weaver (16:13):
This is an arid region, automated overnight,
yeah, yeah, cleaning system,that
Tim Montague (16:20):
thing we're looking at. Robot, yes, it
looks, it looks unwieldy,wieldy, but, but
John Weaver (16:30):
I don't know, big, clunky robot. That's maybe the
easiest type of robot.
Tim Montague (16:36):
Yeah, it's gonna drive around the rows of panels
and clean, clean them, yeah,with a dry brush or a wet brush.
John Weaver (16:44):
This is a dry brush, yeah? So this is for
aired regions. Apparently youcan't use a dry brush in other
regions, because the humiditystarts to have an effect pretty
quickly. They also you can do itwith a wet brush through this
system, because I asked thatquestion, yeah. However, they
(17:05):
said you got to have a vehiclefollowing it, because this it's
not strong enough to pull waterat this power level. So in the
daytime, if you have it cleaningthat it's solar powered, and it
works. And they said you mightwant to have the batteries full,
but it can knock out a couplemegawatts in the daytime. And,
you know, 345, 10, without usingit, with being pure solar, he
(17:28):
gave me some numbers. I put thenumbers in the thing so three
megawatt, three megawatt brushcan do up to five megs, three
meter brush can do up to fivemegs, and the larger one can do
up to 10 nights, and
Tim Montague (17:42):
where's country, country?
John Weaver (17:45):
Oh, one of those countries in that union of
Europeans,
Tim Montague (17:51):
the Baltic.
Baltic. No, I don't know.
John Weaver (17:55):
Yeah, click on the internet and find out. No
Tim Montague (17:57):
worries. No worries. Anything else. We
should probably if there'sanything else beer, beer is
always a good beer.
John Weaver (18:04):
There's always good beer to be had.
Tim Montague (18:05):
How was that? Was the beer? The
John Weaver (18:07):
beer was wonderful.
I have an appreciation for like,5% Pilsner, I guess is what it
is. Just got great taste. Everwhiner? I don't know there's a
whiner beer. Somebody, the guyswho I was with from PB magazine
knew exactly what to order,
Tim Montague (18:25):
so I had some good beer. Is this the same one
John Weaver (18:32):
for Yes, sir. It looks like it's evolving to new
cell types into half cells,
Tim Montague (18:39):
solely there's no regional, region, right, right?
John Weaver (18:43):
Well, I think so. I think the distributor, and I
think salon might be theproduct, but I'm confused by
that actually, because Iactually switched it here. If
you zoom scroll down, outeveryone, there's a magazine
there where it shows and you canzoom in on the magazine, and it
has the name of the product soldon everything so, so good
product. I liked it. There wasbig. There's a lot of things
(19:04):
there. My biggest emotion isthat I should learn a lot about
batteries. Learn how to buildsome batteries, learn how to
research some batteries. Becausethat's, yeah, yeah, that's the
next solar. So to say, for sure,sure, solar plus storage is the
next solar and the next storage.
You know, solar plus storage. Sowe got to get good at all those.
And
Tim Montague (19:25):
I think, I think solar installers are going to be
installing more batteries thansolar in the next five years,
five years. And it's one ofthese, one of these point things
where you don't see it coming.
I'm just it, just and then it,and then it's all battle
batteries.
John Weaver (19:41):
I like your hopefulness that we're going to
be installing in five years.
Yeah.
Tim Montague (19:47):
Well, what are we doing? Doing?
John Weaver (19:51):
We're fighting the war.
Tim Montague (19:52):
Drinking. Beer.
Beer. Freedom man. Oh, freedom,war. Yeah. Hopefully
John Weaver (20:00):
not. Yeah, keep working. Tim, keep working.
How's the pickleball business?
Tim, your fans want to know.
Tim, how's the pickleballbusiness?
Tim Montague (20:08):
It's coming slowly, slowly, very slowly. I
am still a developer, but, man,I'm taking my lumps, lumps. It's
a risky business. Understand,I've got skin in the game and
risk on the table, but I'm stillhoping that the project, project
is going to see the light delay.
John Weaver (20:31):
All right, wouldn't be investing if it wasn't some
risk there. So yep,
Tim Montague (20:37):
yep. Should we talk about what's going on in
Washington or the hotel project,or DC?
John Weaver (20:46):
Yeah, let's go.
Well, let's see the hotelprojects, just so we have
something like positive and niceto talk about, yeah, then we can
talk about DC. And, you know,let's deal with our
Tim Montague (20:57):
so, our project, and this is a looks like, yes,
John Weaver (21:05):
sir, yes, sir. Can you? Can you see our beautiful
pictures? I just we saw thepictures today this, I think
this was the constructionmanager visiting two days ago,
checking in on stuff. And itjust looks so nice and bright of
a location. And it was like, Oh,look at that. And it's a parking
lot. It's been a parking lot formany years. When we dug it up,
(21:27):
there was something underneathit. We found, like building
pipes. So maybe it was abuilding before. No idea. Now,
it's like a Hunt Club. And lookat that sunlight, and look at
that carport, and you know,we're gonna start. You can see
in the back, if you see all theway in the back, in the center,
it looks like just thicker Gray,but that's actually us starting
to do the purlins, thestructural cross beams at the
(21:50):
beginning, because we're donewith putting the big steel in
the ground, in the ground. Andso now it's time to lay the top
layers. And it just looks nice.
I just look with a beautifulimage.
Tim Montague (22:03):
Who's these?
Manufacturer?
John Weaver (22:06):
This is solar mounts based out of Michigan,
big, chunky, flexible system.
Key detail we learned is thatyou have to drill holes. They
give you flexibility and thatyour modules can move, but that
means they're not machinepunching the holes for modules
in the factory. You gotta havethe hours budgeted for that
(22:29):
process. And you know, but youlearn, you learn, you get the
tool, you get your technique,start hammering. Yeah, yeah. And
just, it's just nice looking. Iwas just happy with the color of
the sky, the look of the steel,the progress. This was actually
so our prior project, we took,we filled up 110% of our
(22:51):
excavation budget, plus somebecause we had flooding, which
was fair for us to deal with.
But then the other half was thatthe the ground surveys didn't
catch the ledge. At the ratethat we hit ledge, we expected
to have some so we had themachine on. But what do you
mean? Oh, rock rock, certainrock rock that has to be broken
(23:14):
with a big machine.
Tim Montague (23:17):
Rock, rock, the ground, yeah. But
John Weaver (23:20):
ledge, I believe, is a certain type, yeah. So you
know that
Tim Montague (23:25):
was painful, painful. You had to drill it,
John Weaver (23:39):
big machine making sure we broke it once we had to
fix it, but, but that, yeah, soit's a nice chunk of chunk of
stuff. So if everything else
Tim Montague (23:49):
goes, everything else goes well, when will this
project, project see electricitygrid,
John Weaver (23:58):
September and lucky world. October, you know,
because we have to do somemedium voltage work. The utility
has already done theirinterconnection. We gotta do
some transformers. Gonna do apad. It's gonna take a while to
put 690 kW of modules up whenwe're drilling holes for all of
them, because it's just, youknow, X amount of hours to put
(24:20):
that up. So, yeah, so I think weshould be done. You know, could
be touching the grid in and whatI mean by that, you know,
switches can be thrown for it totest the systems, maybe June,
July, and then it'll be a couplemonths of paperwork. So, so q3
(24:40):
q3 is the, probably the probablythe hard goal. And there is a
hard goal, and I, I'menvisioning it end of September
for mechanical completion, but Ithink it's earlier than that for
reality. But we'll see. We'llsee. You know, there's always
something. There's always acomponent that's late, component
that's early. I. Just gotta pushthrough projects.
Tim Montague (25:04):
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, DC, I mean, there's
going on the IRA is underattack. There was a deal mail in
China, but in DC, on this, thereis a bill that is going to
(25:28):
potentially, and the good newsis reported today, right? That
this, this has been shotdowntown, rarely, yeah, so this
story, media, media is thetitle, energy, energy and, and,
(25:52):
you know, the the thing thing inthis story that really, that
really stands out as that thethe IRA encouraged 300 $321
billion in domestic, domesticclean energy projects, and now
that is at risk, right, right?
And there was another, another522 million private, private by
(26:14):
the private sector. Now the GOP,GOP bill this, this could
disrupt this economic, economicdevelopment, and this includes
factories, factories, right?
Solar Panel, panel, batteries,batteries, EV charging,
(26:36):
infrastructure, structure, allkinds of factories. And then
also projects, I think it'sright, that are used.
John Weaver (26:48):
Yeah. So first off, though, this article, it's,
there's, there's two things weshould talk about. One is this
within the IRA so thereconciliation bill version was
put out by the house. Oneversion of it. And I don't know
if it's gone to the floor, butit's it's coming out of
different departments, and Ithink this bill was one vote
against one piece of it. I'm notcertain where we talked about
(27:09):
the vote against it today, butwhen we talk about this poison
pill, let's talk about thatfirst. So the poison pill says
that no project can receivefederal funding, essentially
that has hardware that comesthrough these groups, these
countries, and one of them isChina, one of them is Russia.
(27:30):
And here's the nuance where itgets to be unusual. Slash
poison. It's that the way thelanguage is put it in it allows
the government to force you toverify, to force you to verify
all components and all of theirsupply chain has, yeah, yeah,
(27:53):
and that right there is The keyunworkableness, because right
now POA, the Uyghur protectiondocumentation that is pushing
against China. It's easier tomanage there, because you're
(28:15):
just talking silicon and thenwafers and then cells. But if
you think about an inverter andall the places that has to come
from, and what stack ofpaperwork you would need to get
through customs, and and thenCustoms has to approve it. So
it's not like, by defaultapproved. They have to be like
approved. And so it, it's goingto cause challenges. And and
(28:43):
we're gonna see, we're gonna seeif that exists. So that's the
first time is dealing with that,this foreign thing. And then, I
don't know if you noticed, butat the same time, Reuters just
came out with a story sayingthey found shutdown devices and
Chinese inverters. Yeah,
Tim Montague (29:01):
companies, companies, of course not. They
John Weaver (29:06):
didn't name the people who said it either. Tim I
think it's a lie. Just saying. Ithink think the game is on.
Timothy, yeah, there's anattack, attack from the side,
and they have to push thepolitics. I fully believe that
we are literally in the midst ofa concerted effort to undercut
this. It's that's too fun oftiming. I mean, maybe, maybe
(29:31):
Reuters decided to hold it, butwe'll see. So, so, so there's
little dance going on now.
There's, here's the second pieceabout this legislation that was
released, and I'm surprised hedidn't mention that this
legislation changes the IRA.
This legislation makes the IRA.
Are you talking about
Tim Montague (29:51):
country media story, or the blue sky? Sky
story? Talking
John Weaver (29:56):
about the canary media story? Okay, okay, the
same legislation that. Has thisfreedom. This is just one sub
component of the broader billbeing changed that I'm the IRA
is being changed. This documentchanges. It did you know that
they're getting rid of theresidential solar tax credit?
That's right,
Tim Montague (30:14):
right? That's the big news. I mean, it's both
commercial, commercial, so theresidential would go away 2025
and then, I think, thencommercial, commercial credit,
it starts
John Weaver (30:29):
phasing out in 2928 the last full year, okay, then
it starts going phase out 29 by20% another 20% uh, year after
year. Yeah, I don't think itever gets to 20% of the tax
credit. I think it goes straightfrom 40. So you got like 29 at
8030,
Tim Montague (30:51):
at and let's, let's remember, we've been here,
been here, right where the itIhas been phase faced, you know,
phasing out, and, and so it cancome back, but, but can be used,
but it's,
John Weaver (31:11):
yeah, and what we're talking about investments,
you know, these are five, youknow, the factory phase out,
paying for hardware started tophase out in 2930 it wasn't an
indefinite, paying forever andever for you to manufacture in
the US. It was through the endof the decade. So this might
(31:32):
have protected some of thefactory interests decently. I
don't know. Yeah, it's stilldancing, though it's not done.
It could get packed more forsolar, we could get hurt more,
yeah, but,
Tim Montague (31:42):
but anyway, there's good news out today,
right, that the sweeping billjust failed in the Budget
Committee 16 to 21 so, so youknow this, this hurts road state
states to phase out road statestates, yeah, and, and, you
(32:03):
know, you gotta have an economy,right, right, as much as you
might love what, what the Trumpadministration is doing, doing
you gotta have, gotta have, yougotta have jobs, jobs and
economic growth, growth and theITC going away is gonna as as
many, many mentioned, right?
Yeah, just, just crazy, crazy.
(32:29):
All right, all right. So wetalked about, about the tariff,
tariff war,
John Weaver (32:35):
yeah, I think that's the one I was paying
attention to right now, is thebattery tariffs. Because I'm I'm
trying my best to pay attentionto him. I want to be in the I
like the idea of being in thebattery space. So Tara forward
is, I guess. I
Tim Montague (32:52):
mean, it's great news we've had, had for a couple
of weeks now, 100 and 145% or135 5% from China, China, and
now they're now 60% which isgood, good. I mean, it's way
(33:13):
better, way better than what itwas was. And, I mean, I've been
talking chin tint. You know,they make batteries in China,
China and and most of those aremade in Thailand, Thailand, I
think, um, now we also, we alsohave tariffs, tariffs on
(33:34):
Thailand, Thailand, but, butless than, less than China,
China, and then. So anyway,yeah, five, 5%
John Weaver (33:46):
but for batteries, it's higher, yeah, yeah. Because
for batteries, they have othertariffs already in place. I
think it's a section, section301, section, something else to
something. So those two itemsgive me, you know, get us
(34:08):
somewhere per the article Ishared in the room. If you want
me to share it, I can because,because I like, I like that
website. So this,
Tim Montague (34:15):
this story.
Back to us. And then, thenthere's another, another story,
um, global average prices. Well,
John Weaver (34:35):
that's the one I was I wanted to bookend that
with. And so the energy storage,one of the second item though,
that they said is that they seetariffs around 40% right now on
batteries. Christian Rosalind,who's a good friend of mine, but
he's also an industry expert fortariff related stuff, but works
in DC a lot, he sees the tariffpercentage around 65% so that's
(34:57):
why I was wanting to show. Sharethis cost and imagining what the
real effect is if we startgetting cheaper battery prices
available, and what the realtariff would be, and what the
effective price would be,because if we start to say,
let's just say, let's just say,our Tariff with batteries end up
being 65% because of all thesex, because there's other
(35:19):
tariffs on batteries, just likethere are in solar panels,
because of the domesticimportance of it. But let's just
say it's 65% and then we look atthat list. Do you mind sharing
the Goldman Sachs? Oh, there itis. Perfect timing. And we see
that in 25 you know, let's say,for instance, 23 we see 140 to
180 let's or 160 to 170 oractually, that's probably closer
(35:44):
to 150 sorry, 2223 now to getback
Tim Montague (35:47):
to 150 ish, these are dollar
John Weaver (35:52):
dollars per kilowatt hour, yes. And if you
look here, it's the wholesystem. So other components.
This is shipping containerdelivered to port. Type of
thing, is my guess. And so toget back to 150 you probably
need to be at 80 if your tariffis 65 so eight times six is
(36:14):
four, eight That's five. Soeight plus 55 is 135 so if the
world is at 80, which issomewhere in 26 maybe then
interesting. Now we know thatBYD just did a massive bid that
(36:35):
was actually in the 66 range, no60 range, but that was for a
massive that was a gigawatt hourpurchase that wasn't one
shipping container. So 80 is arealistic number in China, on
the ground right now, deliveredto my warehouse. Probably I
(36:58):
could get to 85 100 I don'tknow. I've never purchased one
of these. You know, I want oneof those. See it Kato ones.
Those things don't exist. So,yeah, I know taxes. Thanks,
Randy. We appreciate it. So ifwe think about that price, that
price per kilowatt hour of wherewe are right now, you know, I
(37:19):
know there are people in the USsigning deals for under that 80
number today, and they have 80globally. That's a global
number. That's great. Globalaverage. We know China's below
80. So if there's aentrepreneurial person who's
knocking doors downtownShanghai, working hard, they're
getting containers at 7075, 80.
And if all that's working, thereare COVID Arrow pricing, which
(37:42):
is strong but survivable, Iguess. And that's if we hold it
65 oh, so that is my reasonyou're
Tim Montague (37:56):
talking about 6065 on the TerraForm kWh. 65%
John Weaver (38:04):
as the tariff.
Yeah, yeah. If we hold it 65%for importing batteries into the
US, then an 80 kW gets you, youknow, gets you the COVID error
number, yeah. I mean,
Tim Montague (38:18):
domestic battery manufacturing. Tesla's biggest
one. Good luck getting products.
That's the challenge. There issupply chain there and then, and
then you have building a batteryfactory. But if this legislation
goes through, they are not goingto energize that factory.
(38:39):
Factory, it ain't happening.
John Weaver (38:44):
So you should ask them their reaction to this. I
bet you they might be interestedin speaking in their voice out
there, because they're probablylooking at the manufacturer's
credits very explicitly. And Ithink I mentioned this earlier,
the manufacturing credits mayhave been phased out as well
from the other side, but to alesser degree, however, there's
something. There's anotherkiller in here. Transferability
(39:07):
is now getting to be harder andmaybe even phasing out sooner.
And the factory people reallywanted the transferability. That
was a massive driver. 90 cent onthe dollar, transferability was
golden for those folks. So well,they should be called. They
should be on the show to givethem right
Tim Montague (39:27):
want to call them right now, well, so I don't have
contact more
John Weaver (39:34):
anymore, all right.
Well,
Tim Montague (39:37):
it's originally a Norwegian region, Norwegian
region company, but they've justannounced that their, their
their new US headquarters isgoing to be in Texas, Austin,
Texas, and yeah, they bought asolar panel factory, solar
(39:59):
plant. It's another battery,battery company, company, yes,
John Weaver (40:04):
and I think they laid off. They had a Georgia
battery facility they werethinking about constructing in
Georgia. Is
Tim Montague (40:10):
Georgia happening?
I I think
John Weaver (40:13):
there's a chance they slowed down a bit on
Tim Montague (40:18):
that. Yeah, but
John Weaver (40:20):
I don't know. I don't know much. Yeah, yes, I
think I've seen them
Tim Montague (40:32):
songs on right, and I need to get two years ago
I hunkered down. Into solar lastyear, I need to pop my head up.
I had some more stores. So ifyou're if you're a storage
developer, OEM asset owner,please reach out. Reach out to
(40:55):
me. You can find all thiscontent. You can find me. Tim
Montague, John Weaver, can helpfind you. Find you.
John Weaver (41:03):
Commercial solar guy.com commercial solar
guy.com, we should get a cooljingle. Tim, clean power, power.
Tim Montague (41:13):
We share. This friend of mine is threatening to
ride your jingle for me, thereyou go. He's been threatening. I
John Weaver (41:21):
gotta give them some beer, beer and 50 bucks
getting roughers,
Tim Montague (41:29):
you know, all right. And in the meantime,
let's grow solar and storage.
Storage. Take care. Take care.
You.
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