December 5, 2023 • 47 mins
What a joy and privilege to finish our very first season of the podcast with Christopher Ash - author of Zeal Without Burnout and The Book Your Pastor Wishes You Would Read But Is Too Embarrassed To Ask. Christopher shares his own journey through burnout and what led to his publications in this area.
Christopher shares his personal pearls of wisdom for pastors: the importance of grounding motivation in the promises of the Lord rather than worldly metrics of success, combatting loneliness with long-term friendships, and cultivating a nourishing relationship with God. So join us, and gain a deeper understanding of the highs and lows of pastoral life and the resilience, faith, and grace required to navigate them.
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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of the clergy well-being
Down Under podcast.
I'm so privileged to haveChristopher Ash with me.
Many of you will know him fromhis book Zeal Without Burnout.
(00:50):
He's written a number of books.
There is another book which I'ma huge fan of.
It's called the Book yourPastor Wishes you Would Read.
That is too embarrassed to ask.
Welcome, Christopher, so lovelyto see you.
Christopher Ash (01:07):
Thank you very much, Valerie.
It's a privilege for me to bewith you.
Valerie Ling (01:12):
Christopher, I'm very interested in the story
behind the book.
You wrote this probably in2015?
.
Christopher Ash (01:22):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (01:23):
That be right, yes .
Christopher Ash (01:27):
Yes, yes.
Valerie Ling (01:29):
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (01:31):
Well, the back story is I think I'm probably
quite a fragile personality.
When I was an assistantminister in Cambridge, I was
asked to lead a church plant toa neighboring village and I did
(01:52):
so and I God was very kind to us, but I struggled especially
with loneliness, having been ina city centre church as part of
a significant staff team, and Ican remember one day I just hit
the wall and thought I can'tface another meeting and my lay
(02:16):
leadership in the church werewonderfully supportive and I
took a month in which I didSundays but nothing else, and in
God's kindness, that restoredme.
But that was probably a warningsign.
And then in 2012, ironicallyafter a very busy ministry visit
(02:40):
to Australia where you guys dowork your visiting speakers very
hard and I flew back in, Ithink, late August or early
September, looking forward to asabbatical.
And, again ironically, duringthat sabbatical, there were all
(03:02):
sorts of reasons I reallycrashed and it was a dark time.
I was also writing a commentaryon the book of Job, which had a
strange appropriateness in thecircumstances, but it was a very
dark time and there were anumber of factors fed into it.
My elderly parents werebeginning to fail and the care
(03:25):
for them was becomingincreasingly onerous.
Yes, there were a number offamily things that were
difficult, but for one reason oranother I really crashed and
God gave me a measure ofrestoration.
I went back to work after thesabbatical and then in 2014, I
(03:50):
was speaking for Alastair Beggat his pastors conference called
the Basics in Ohio, and as partof being one of the speaking
team, I was asked if I would doa seminar for pastors on
anything I liked, and I thoughtthis question of struggling with
(04:11):
burnout is very live for me.
So I jotted some things down onthe back of an envelope and did
this seminar.
I had no idea whether theAmerican pastors what they made
of it really, but then, theinternet being what it is, I
began to get messages frompeople different parts of the
world very appreciative for it,because they'd seen the podcast
(04:35):
from it.
So I pitched it to one or twopublishers and the Good Book
Company picked it up and it waspublished as Zeal Without
Burnout and strangely, god seemsto be using it to encourage
different people.
So it's a back story withconsiderable dark times, and
(05:03):
it's probably fair to say thatI've never fully recovered.
I'm not sure you do fullyrecover from that sort of crash.
I mean, I'm functioning, I'mwriting, I'm preaching, I'm
physically healthy, but I thinkmy wife would tell you that I'm
emotionally more fragile than Iwas before those days.
Valerie Ling (05:25):
Christopher, might I ask you what does that mean,
when you say that you neverfully recovered?
Christopher Ash (05:35):
It's hard to distinguish what is simply
getting older and graduallylowering energy levels that come
with being in 60s well, in 60s,rather than ones 40s or 50s.
But I think I'm emotionallymore fragile.
(05:56):
I've always been an up and downsort of personality A doctor
once called it cyclothymic,which I think means up and down,
but not bipolar, and I thinkprobably the downs have been
stronger since then and I'm moreprone to low mood, what earlier
(06:22):
generations would have calledmelancholic, probably, and I'm
probably just more prone to beknocked by discouragements than
I once was, just less robust.
It may not be a bad thing.
Valerie Ling (06:42):
And in the midst of those dark times when you're
experiencing it, were you aware?
Did it creep up on you?
Did it come upon you all of asudden?
What was your experience?
Christopher Ash (06:55):
It was fairly sudden.
It wasn't as sudden as I thinkPeter Adam when he described his
breakdown, which was reallycatastrophic.
From his descriptions and he'sbeen a great help to me and a
kind older friend it was fairlysudden.
(07:15):
It was in the matter ofprobably two or three weeks.
Valerie Ling (07:21):
And, christopher, do you think there might have
been some patterns thatpre-existed even before your
ministry life?
Christopher Ash (07:29):
Yes, I think quite likely.
I think that the way God shapesus in our upbringing and
experiences all manner of things, I sometimes think as a pastor
I struggle to understand otherpeople and I certainly struggle
to understand myself, but I'msure there were patterns.
(07:53):
This may be relevant to yourwork.
I come from a family of highachievers.
I have a brother.
He's not a believer but he's avery, very high achiever, a very
distinguished intellectual andwriter, and both my grandparents
were high achievers and so allthrough my childhood achieving I
(08:18):
wasn't pushed.
My parents were very good atnot pushing me, but that was
what was in front of me as asort of ideal in life to achieve
something with the talents youhave.
And I guess my view is it's notentirely a bad thing.
But like so many things in life, it can get out of proportion
(08:41):
and become a disordered thing.
Valerie Ling (08:45):
And how would you say that related to your
experience then of when youactually went through that
period of burnout?
Christopher Ash (09:02):
It may be linked with the fact that it
came during a not very wellplanned sabbatical period of
study leave which, for variousreasons, partly outside my
control, had become much lessrefreshing time.
But it is partly the sense ofwaking up in the morning and
(09:24):
thinking I'm not sure what Ishould be doing, having had a
very clear sense of what I wasdoing before I was on study
leave.
It was very clear I was in abusy ministry position.
And then you wake up in themorning and think, well, I'm not
sure what I should be doing,and it's maybe not uncommon to
(09:52):
feel a bit lost with that, but Icertainly felt quite lost.
Valerie Ling (09:58):
So one of the things that I found in my survey
of the ministers who completedit is that one of the top
reasons for wanting to leave theministry is loneliness.
Christopher Ash (10:11):
Yes, it's a strange thing, isn't it?
I mean it's a stereotype thatmen are worse at friendship than
women, but there's something init.
In my experience and I'mcertainly not been very good at
friendship I found I mean, longbefore this happened I've had
(10:36):
the practice, most of the timereally, of meeting with two
other men week by week to pray,just to pray for one another.
And I do that now with twofriends at Tyndale House where I
work, and I find that a hugeencouragement.
I think when I hit my I supposeyou'd call it a breakdown I
(10:58):
wasn't at that stage doing that-Okay.
Not for any particularintentional reason, but it had
just dropped off the horizon andI restarted it and that was a
huge encouragement.
There's a great loneliness inministry, especially, I think,
for senior pastors or seniorministers.
(11:18):
Nothing prepares you for theresponsibility under God for the
lives of those placed in yourcare, and even if you've been an
assistant minister in a largechurch, nothing prepares you for
that sense of what intraditional Anglican terms is
(11:41):
called the cure of souls.
It's a tremendousresponsibility and it makes
demands of our walk with theLord and our spiritual lives for
which I suspect many of us arenot very well prepared and could
(12:03):
perhaps be better prepared.
And I wonder if some of ourPuritan forefathers were better
prepared.
They thought more aboutself-examination, they thought
more about their hearts, theythought more about examining
their motivations, and I wonderif we could do more of that.
(12:26):
Particularly, I was justreflecting when thinking about
speaking with you today, being achurch leader at a time when in
Australia or New Zealand or theUnited Kingdom or North America
, broadly Western cultures thetide of our culture is running
(12:50):
so strongly against us.
And even in my lifetime I'mnearly 70, but I remember as a
young Christian in my late teensand then 20s, people thought to
be a Christian was a good thing.
They would apologize to you fornot being a Christian or for
(13:10):
not being what they called avery good Christian.
It was felt to be a good thingand therefore if you were a
minister it was in some way anadmirable thing, Whereas
increasingly now it's very muchthe opposite.
Of course, our brothers andsisters in the persecuted church
have known this all throughchurch history and it shouldn't
(13:31):
surprise us, but it does, andparticularly those who I mean in
my context who serve in thenational church, in the Church
of England.
Because you had a certainstatus, you belonged in society
in some way and increasingly youreally, really don't, and I
(13:53):
think that makes real demands ofour walk with the Lord.
Valerie Ling (13:58):
There is a level of suspicion, some of it rightly
placed by society with some ofthe horrible mistakes that we
have made as a church and asChristians.
But it doesn't necessarily meanthat when you pastor a church,
that your congregants aregenerally trusting and accepting
(14:20):
of you, is it?
Christopher Ash (14:22):
No, no, and I wonder if one of the things that
feeds into pressure onministers at the moment is what
feels like an avalanche ofscandals in different parts of
the world ministry, churchleadership scandals, different
(14:42):
parts of the world, differentkinds of churches, different
denominations but it does feel.
I remember writing down a listjust of people I happened to
know or know of, and it justwent on and on and on, and maybe
my perception is skewed, Maybeit's always been like this, but
(15:04):
it doesn't feel like that andit's demoralizing.
Valerie Ling (15:08):
Oh yes.
Christopher Ash (15:09):
Desperately demoralizing.
Yes.
Valerie Ling (15:12):
Yes, I've often thought about how some of what
we hear in our practice I callit it's about longings and
belongings.
There's a real longing.
The human beings have a desire,a real longing to belong, and
so you know, I'd love to comeback to your point about some of
the practices that perhaps wemay have lost from investing our
(15:35):
sense of belonging in the Lordand what competes with that.
There used to be a sense, Ithink, that perhaps even within
the church you could safely finda space for belonging, whereas
these days we find that theresponses that we're getting
(15:57):
from our pastors, it's thefighting and the quarreling and
the rejection and the shamingthat is in the church that puts
a grenade to that sense ofhere's where I can belong as a
place, not just as a pastor, butthis is my church.
(16:20):
I think that's also very hardfor pastors.
You don't have a church thatyou can go to.
Christopher Ash (16:27):
Oh, I'm sure that's true, and it's not
confined to any particular kindof church government.
You find this in Episcopalianchurches, you find it in
Presbyterian churches,independent churches, all kinds
of churches.
You find this.
It's a precious thing when achurch is a kind of foretaste of
(16:49):
the kingdom of heaven and whenwe really find it is a place of
safety.
But it's really hard when itisn't, and for pastors there's
almost nothing that goes to theheart of a pastor more than a
divided church, whether it'sparty spirit or bitterness or
(17:13):
selfish rivalries.
It's really hard but it's worthour thinking and I'm sure you
think a lot about this how apastor who is seeking to lead a
church that is troubled can beencouraged in the Lord as they
(17:34):
do that work.
Valerie Ling (17:37):
Which returns me to something you said, which is
perhaps some of the practices ofexamining ourselves.
I'd love to find out more aboutyour thoughts about that.
It's not something I know a lotabout.
Christopher Ash (17:53):
It's not something I know a lot about,
but it's something I feel itwould be good for me to know a
little bit more about.
So the Puritans do speak aboutself-examination, an
out-of-proportion introspection.
So we need to look more atChrist and his perfections and
(18:17):
his sufficiency, but nonetheless, there is a place for
self-examination and penitenceconscious, deliberate penitence
so that we repent not justgenerally but specifically of
things that we find in ourhearts and so that we're
(18:41):
actively fighting againstparticular sins.
I sometimes ask myself arethere particular sins that I'm
now fighting against and they'llbe different for different
people at different times.
There's something veryparticular and specific about
that.
I think I've found increasinglythat I have valued in my
(19:04):
personal devotions using some ofthe great prayers, the rich
heritage of prayers throughChristian history.
I'm using a little book ofdevotions which Crossway
published called Lord Be myVision, and it's got wonderful
old prayers from church fathersand reformers and Puritans.
(19:29):
And my wife and I often say oneof those together and there's a
richness in rooting us in Christand there's a lovely book of
Puritan prayers which TimChester has edited we're using
as well, and that those kinds ofanchors into church history can
(19:51):
really help, I think, enrichour walk with the Lord.
Valerie Ling (19:57):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:19):
You mentioned I thought youknow it struck me you began our
conversation by saying that youbelieve yourself to be someone
who's emotionally fragile or afragile personality, and that
you can be prone todiscouragement.
And what really ministered toyou?
Christopher Ash (20:36):
Christopher, I think the love of brothers and
sisters in Christ.
I was preaching in our homechurch just a few months ago and
I slightly shocked people.
It was a passage in one, john,about love for one another.
(20:57):
And I slightly shocked peopleby telling them of a time when I
was in church and nothingtouched me.
The prayers didn't touch me,the singing didn't touch me, the
sermon, the Bible reading,didn't touch me, the sermon
didn't touch me.
I just felt numb because ofvarious sadnesses.
And then a lovely sister inChrist came over to me at the
(21:22):
end of the service and she saidyou're looking a bit down, how
are you doing?
And it was very simple, but thefact that a brother or sister
in Christ had cared and noticedreally got to my heart and
encouraged me.
I went home with a full heartjust simply from that little act
(21:44):
of care and love and concern.
And I think that's, I think itis the encouragement of brothers
and sisters.
When it's not flattery, it'sjust a concern and a care is a
very deep thing.
Valerie Ling (22:00):
I did happen to catch your recording of the talk
that you gave in the UnitedStates.
That was the basis of the book,and at the time you actually
said that you had a son who washimself in ministry.
Christopher Ash (22:16):
I do.
Our oldest son is in ministry.
Valerie Ling (22:18):
yes, Having watched him now.
So we're 2014, or that was whenyou presented that talk and
passed through COVID and thingslike that.
Well, there'd be anythingadditional you would want to put
into the book when you'vewatched your own son go through
this experience?
Christopher Ash (22:38):
I think, the world of our oldest son.
He's a very fine man and a finebeliever and a faithful
disciple and a faithful ministerand considerably more gifted
than me in many, many ways.
I really look up to him in allsorts of ways.
I think the COVID years werereally tough on church leaders,
(23:03):
really really tough.
Just the former student of minehe's in Canada, he's a pastor
and he said it felt like being aworkman with a tool belt, like
a carpenter, and you have a toolbelt with all your tools in it
and you reach for a tool andit's just not there in COVID
because you weren't allowed tomeet and gather and all the
(23:25):
things you would normally do.
I think that was really reallytough.
I think when I watched my sonand his wife, I think the rich
network of edifying, encouragingChristian friendships that they
develop should be warmlyencouraged and actually I think
(23:48):
that his generation is in hislate 30s.
His generation of pastors inBritain are far better than my
generation at doing thatbuilding those networks of
really encouraging friendshipand accountability, the sort of
friendship where somebody canask you some of the harder
(24:11):
questions, and we need that.
Valerie Ling (24:15):
And so might he have studied your book.
Then Zeal Without Burnout andput into place everything he
contributed to it.
Christopher Ash (24:26):
All sorts of little anecdotes and turns of
phrase were his, so he read anearly draft and contributed
considerable wisdom.
I should be passing theroyalties to him.
Valerie Ling (24:39):
There is so much wisdom in that book,
foundational things that are soimportant for mental health and
well-being, and some of thebarriers that we face in
ministry, things like regularworking hours and the fact that
your whole family is exposed toministry.
I still read it and, as apsychology practice, it's one of
(25:02):
the mandatory books that I sayokay, all psychologists working
in the Christian ministry spaceread this book.
Christopher Ash (25:11):
It's kind of you to say that my friend Steve
Midgley, who contributed anappendix on stress.
He and I wrote a book on anger.
Valerie Ling (25:21):
Oh, I've read that too, Christopher.
Christopher Ash (25:23):
Well, just today, about half an hour before
speaking with you, I had anemail from a former student
who's a pastor in Bratislava andexpressing appreciation for
that.
So I shall pass that on toSteve Midgley.
But I think the kinds of thingsthat the biblical counseling
(25:45):
movement at its best have beentrying to bring into the
mainstream of our churchcultures has been really helpful
in thinking what is it to be adisciple now, not simply having
a ticket to the life, to the ageto come, but what does it feel
like and what does it mean towalk with Jesus through this age
(26:08):
?
Valerie Ling (26:10):
Oh, I read the book on anger.
I actually read it right beforeI started to think about
destructive leadership.
So what explains some of thebehaviors that we see in church
leadership?
Is there a?
I was wondering whether therewas a stress pathway to that.
(26:30):
You can feel like your back isup against a wall.
You can freeze, you can run oryou start to fight back.
I was curious about some of thethings that you might have to
say about this emotion anger.
So I'm wondering whether youhad any thoughts or insights
(26:51):
into how the stress on a pastorcan lead to sometimes unhelpful
and inappropriate reactions suchas anger.
Christopher Ash (27:01):
Oh, I think you've really put your finger on
something enormously importantand I can think just in my
experience.
People don't think of me as anangry person, but with the right
stress and the right triggers Ican be apoplectically angry.
(27:22):
Just by God's grace I haven'tlashed out at people, so people
wouldn't be aware of that, butit's there in my heart and I.
It is perhaps one of thegreatest pressures on a pastor
(27:45):
in terms that they walk with theLord when treated badly, when
somebody behaves badly,especially one of those
entrusted to your care, and theybehave badly or they behave
badly towards you.
The disciplines in the Psalmsof taking it to the Lord in
(28:10):
prayer and not lashing out aremuch easier said than done.
I've been just reading veryrecently well, I'm reading
through Calvin's Instituterather late in my life, and the
wonderful pastoral way in whichhe teaches the sovereignty of
(28:32):
God, that God is directing allthings in his providence and
wisdom and the effect of that onthe believer.
A wonderful quotation I jotteddown yesterday.
He says when people treat youbadly, there's an extraordinary
piece that comes from knowingthat you have a Heavenly Father
who is directing and working allthings for your good, so you
(28:56):
don't lash out.
But I think these, thespiritual nature of these things
and the kind of deep engagementwith our spiritual lives, is
very important.
I'm quite certain that you'reright.
There's a stress pathway toanger and of course we only see
(29:19):
the examples where somebody hasto leave ministry because of
behaving very badly andinappropriately with what is
real bullying, not the sort ofimagined bullying where
someone's just forceful, butreal bullying.
We only see that, but, as withmost sin, that there are things
(29:44):
in our hearts which can lead tothat.
Valerie Ling (29:48):
Power being one of them as well, whether we are
aware of it or not.
Christopher Ash (29:54):
Yes, yes, yes, power, and it's not just
institutional power, it's thepower of personality, or the
power that just comes from theway you're regarded.
Of course, some church cultureswill accord the pastor more, a
higher position than others, butthere's always something where
(30:18):
you know more, you're bettereducated in terms of the things
of the Bible than Christ, andthere's a hidden power, or it
may be I mean, in England it'svery much People often talk
about this to do with educationor class very intangible, but
it's not.
(30:38):
That doesn't mean it's not real.
An awareness of the power wemay wield is a first step
towards learning to use it in agodly way.
Valerie Ling (30:54):
The other book that you wrote, which I'm always
trying to get people to readthe book your pastor wishes you
would read, but is tooembarrassed to ask in
parentheses.
Christopher Ash (31:07):
It was the publisher's title.
It's a rather mischievous title, isn't it?
Valerie Ling (31:11):
I love it.
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (31:17):
Sorry, what.
Valerie Ling (31:18):
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (31:22):
Well, I think it was just the thought that
when I left the Cornhilltraining course and I was no
longer a practicing pastor so Iwork at Tyndale House they call
me writer-in-residence but Idon't have any duties there, so
I'm not a practicing pastor in achurch.
I preach here and there but Idon't actually have a pastor's
(31:46):
position.
And I was having to come toterms with what is it, when you
were in a pastoral leadershipposition, to be a member of a
Christian church, to be underthe pastoral leadership of your
pastors.
And it's quite a challenge, Ithink, for a number of us when
(32:09):
we're technically retired fromministry to do that.
And that prompted me to think Iwant my minister to be glad
that I'm part of the church heleads, and what sorts of things
make a pastor glad.
And I thought to myself I knowlots of pastors through the
(32:32):
Cornhill training course andother connections.
I've been a pastor.
Maybe I could have a go attrying to sketch out what are
the kinds of things that willrejoice a pastor's heart.
Valerie Ling (32:49):
I loved reading that book because when it came
out I think in 2019, it wasright before the pandemic and I
started to wonder about when wetalk about leadership, there's
also an element of followership.
It's a dance, there's a leaderand then there are followers,
and what constitutes healthyfollowership.
(33:12):
And so when your book came out,I was so excited to read it and
I was so encouraged, I think,just as a human being under
Christ, to say that I can dothis for my pastor.
It's really not thatcomplicated.
Christopher Ash (33:27):
No, it's not that complicated.
No, it's really not thatcomplicated, is it?
Valerie Ling (33:34):
It isn't.
Christopher Ash (33:35):
And I think what struck me was we often
think functionally about what Imight contribute, what gifts I
might have, or what money Imight have to give or something
functional, but actually it'swhen I'm walking with the Lord,
repenting day by day, trustingin Christ, seeking to serve Him.
(33:59):
That's what ought to rejoice apastor's heart, a pastor at
their best.
Pastors are just thrilled tosee that and couldn't care very
much whether people have moneyor gifts.
Actually, of course we do carewhen people have money or gifts,
(34:19):
but it's signs of godlinessthat really, really warm a
pastor's heart.
Valerie Ling (34:27):
Well, it's been a fairly steady result in any
research that has been done inAustralia about clergy
well-being is that ministershave not lost their zeal, if you
like, they find enormousmeaning from serving the Lord
and serving the church.
It is that they are exhaustedand, I think, perhaps, as you
said, deeply discouraged.
(34:48):
So one of the things that Idiscovered in my survey was, by
asking you know what level ofconflict and unpleasant behavior
are you exposed to on a regularbasis?
And that was pretty high.
I mean, it's not something thatI would want to turn up to
regularly, to be frank, butunpleasantness.
(35:10):
And so the book that you have,then, about the joys it comes
down to one fundamentalprinciple it's working on
ourselves, our relationship withJesus, and loving and caring
our past, and doing it together.
Christopher Ash (35:27):
Yes, yes, yes, and you're quite right.
I don't know why you discussedthis, I think, with Archipoulos,
but why this kind of behaviourseems to be more intense these
days.
Perhaps it always has been andI just haven't known about it.
(35:49):
I don't know.
But I think of a good friend ofmine who's really been driven
out of Christian ministry byungodly behaviour of one sort or
another, and it's a terriblething, terrible, terrible thing
to see.
Valerie Ling (36:08):
It's very damaging .
Christopher Ash (36:10):
Oh, very damaging.
It's damaging to a church, it'sdamaging to the pastor or
minister concerned, damaging totheir family.
Valerie Ling (36:21):
And so when you released this book, did you get
much interest, much feedback,much solid.
You know, christopher, we arewith you.
Christopher Ash (36:31):
I got some.
It's a strange thing writing abook to start with you get
nothing, and then maybe somebodyreads it and every now and then
somebody will message you.
No, not a huge amount.
To be honest, I haven't had atremendous amount of feedback.
It may be that all the COVIDthing intervened and everybody
was focusing on that strangeworld that we lived in.
Valerie Ling (36:55):
Yeah, I love that you put it in parentheses.
I think it actually givespermission.
So if anybody is listening tothis podcast, I'd encourage you
to.
You know, purchase a wholestack of that and put it on the
booktables in your church,because it is one of those
things where your pastor can'topenly say this is how I'm
(37:15):
feeling.
This is what would deeplyencourage me.
Christopher Ash (37:19):
I did have some examples where a lay leader, an
elder or a church warden orsomebody had bought copies for
the church council, for theelders or perhaps for the whole
church if it wasn't too big achurch, and that I think in a
way I was hoping for that really, that people would begin to
(37:43):
think, as you say, it's not sovery difficult to do these
things.
Valerie Ling (37:50):
It seems to be in church circles a fear that if
we're too nice or if we don'tget it all out.
You know it's quite combativeat times the way that we
approach conflict.
I find I don't know what it'slike in the UK whether there are
similar combative ways ofdealing with conflict in church.
Maybe it's different.
Christopher Ash (38:15):
I think some of our Australian friends say to
us in the UK that we are muchtoo nice, and I think there's
something in that.
It doesn't mean that we're anybetter, but it's often cloaked
in a veneer of niceness butbehind that the words are spoken
(38:41):
that are like two-edged swordsthat cause great harm.
So we're less likely to have apublic showdown in a church
meeting although that doessometimes happen but it's more
likely to be behind the pastor'sback and then they hear what's
(39:02):
being said and things that arebeing distorted and people that
have the courage to come and saythese things to their face.
Valerie Ling (39:13):
So, eight years on from writing Zeal Without
Burnout, would there be anythingadditional that you would want
to say to a pastor listeninginto our conversation, anything
that you would like them to walkaway with from listening to us?
Christopher Ash (39:30):
I think I would .
It's not so much somethingcompletely new, but I would
reinforce what I tried to sayabout motivation and to resist
the worldliness which is in allour church circles.
(39:50):
That success means largenumbers, success means speaking
at conferences, success meansbeing a well-known preacher so
people download your sermons.
That success, all these worldlymetrics, and to focus really
(40:11):
hard at developing a deep,deeply nourished walk with the
Lord so that we really trustthat, even if nobody ever gets
to hear of us that to be thepastor of a local church, to
care for men and women, to prayfor them, even if we see so, so
(40:33):
little visible fruit, that thatwell-done, good and faithful
servant is the one thing that weare praying to live for.
I think I would just want us toemphasize that even more and
that it is tough and we mustn'tbe pathetic.
(40:57):
We must admit that it is toughand the Lord Jesus told us it
would be hard.
So not to be surprised, but tolearn, to rejoice, to walk with
Jesus and to trust His promises.
Valerie Ling (41:12):
And when times of temptation come to earn that
approval by doing more, takingon more, saying yes to more,
might you have some words ofwisdom.
Christopher Ash (41:24):
Oh that there are times I've developed
something of an expertise atsaying no, and you learn it the
hard way because to start withit's flattering, isn't it?
When somebody says, here's anew ministry opportunity, why
don't you do this?
And you think, oh, howwonderful, they've asked me,
(41:45):
maybe I'm somebody special.
And after a while there areenough scars and knocks and you
think, no, that was justnonsense.
And there is one savior of theworld.
It's not me and it's nevergoing to be me.
And I seek to serve the Lord inmy generation as he gives
(42:07):
strength and of course you getolder, it becomes more and more
necessary because the strengthis less and the energy is less
and will gradually or perhapssuddenly it'll go, and we trust
that the kingdom of God does notultimately depend on us.
Valerie Ling (42:27):
And when times of loneliness and profound
discouragement sets in whatwould be your words of wisdom
there.
Christopher Ash (42:37):
I think it's something that I haven't been
very good at, but it is tocultivate friendships that go on
through the years withChristian brothers and sisters.
I find I value friendshipswhere we've been through some
highs and lows together.
I value those friendships.
(42:59):
I meet, as I'm sure you do,many people who could become
friends and they're lovely,lovely people and I warm to them
and enjoy their company.
But to meet with somebody who'sbeen a friend for 10, 20, 30,
40 years is a wonderful thingand to nurture those friendships
(43:21):
for the times of loneliness.
Valerie Ling (43:23):
Yes, I have to say , my husband and I were in that
season of life.
We aggregate that between thetwo of us, we're in our 50s.
Christopher Ash (43:33):
Very young.
Valerie Ling (43:35):
Yes, we've started to think that, because of the
ministry life we have had, we'venot always had consistent
friendships through the yearsand we're starting to really
deeply think, partly because ofthe wisdom that has come out
from these podcasts, the wisdomof being intentional now to
actually name those people andto ask them will we journey
(43:57):
together for the next decade?
Will we consider some ways thatwe can make our meeting
intentional and more frequent sothat when we are in our 60s,
70s, we will have thosefriendships?
So I think that's so wise.
Christopher Ash (44:15):
I think that's a great thing to do.
Valerie Ling (44:18):
And, finally, if there was a church listening in
to our conversation, it lightedsome of the things that I've
found in my research with theconflict, the loneliness and
also the demands andexpectations that are on pastors
.
What might you want a churchlistening in to walk away with?
Christopher Ash (44:43):
Pray for your pastor.
Encourage your pastor inpreaching.
Encourage everything good thatyou appreciate and encourage
them when they care for you.
Encourage them when they dothat simple thing of getting
(45:04):
alongside you and caring for youand walking with you through
one time or another.
Encourage them in that so thatthey know you don't take it for
granted, so that they know thatyou deeply appreciate that and
you appreciate that more thanwhether they're well-known or
(45:26):
whether they're tremendouslygood organiser or all the other
things that pastors do.
Valerie Ling (45:33):
I actually think that our episode will be the
final word on this podcast.
I said to my husband I'm notquite sure how many you're
supposed to do.
I'll just keep going until Iget to the end, but we've
recorded so many that I'd liketo actually finish by Christmas.
This will be the final word, soI might just leave you with a
(45:55):
thought of might you havesomething final for us to say
here in Australia, families thatmight be listening to this, all
of us here in Australia tryingto grapple with what it means to
serve Jesus and love oneanother and be faithful.
Your last word, christopher Ash.
Christopher Ash (46:21):
What a great privilege.
I think I want to say that Godis faithful and good and wise
and infinitely loving.
He knows exactly what he'sdoing and to belong to Jesus.
There is no greater privilegein the world and whatever
(46:44):
happens in church life, whateverhappens in our culture, God
will make Jesus the head of thenew heavens and the new earth
and all things will be puttogether in him, and let's
rejoice in that.
Valerie Ling (47:00):
Thank you so much.
I think I will be listening onthose words time and time again.
Christopher, Thank you so muchfor spending your time with me.
It's been such a joy.
Christopher Ash (47:10):
Oh, it's been a privilege for me.
Thank you, Valerie, very much.
May the Lord strengthen you inyour work.
Valerie Ling (47:16):
Thank you, friends and listeners.
You have now come to the verylast episode of the Clarity
Wellbeing Down Under podcast.
It's been a joy to be with youfor this last season and we wish
you and yours a blessedChristmas and happy new year
straight from the hearts of theLing family as well as from the
(47:40):
team of the Centre for EffectiveLiving and the Centre for
Effective Serving.
We look forward to seeing youvery likely next year for season
two.
Take care and thank you.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of the clergy well-being
Down Under podcast.
I'm so privileged to haveChristopher Ash with me.
Many of you will know him fromhis book Zeal Without Burnout.
(00:50):
He's written a number of books.
There is another book which I'ma huge fan of.
It's called the Book yourPastor Wishes you Would Read.
That is too embarrassed to ask.
Welcome, Christopher, so lovelyto see you.
Christopher Ash (01:07):
Thank you very much, Valerie.
It's a privilege for me to bewith you.
Valerie Ling (01:12):
Christopher, I'm very interested in the story
behind the book.
You wrote this probably in2015?
.
Christopher Ash (01:22):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (01:23):
That be right, yes .
Christopher Ash (01:27):
Yes, yes.
Valerie Ling (01:29):
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (01:31):
Well, the back story is I think I'm probably
quite a fragile personality.
When I was an assistantminister in Cambridge, I was
asked to lead a church plant toa neighboring village and I did
(01:52):
so and I God was very kind to us, but I struggled especially
with loneliness, having been ina city centre church as part of
a significant staff team, and Ican remember one day I just hit
the wall and thought I can'tface another meeting and my lay
(02:16):
leadership in the church werewonderfully supportive and I
took a month in which I didSundays but nothing else, and in
God's kindness, that restoredme.
But that was probably a warningsign.
And then in 2012, ironicallyafter a very busy ministry visit
(02:40):
to Australia where you guys dowork your visiting speakers very
hard and I flew back in, Ithink, late August or early
September, looking forward to asabbatical.
And, again ironically, duringthat sabbatical, there were all
(03:02):
sorts of reasons I reallycrashed and it was a dark time.
I was also writing a commentaryon the book of Job, which had a
strange appropriateness in thecircumstances, but it was a very
dark time and there were anumber of factors fed into it.
My elderly parents werebeginning to fail and the care
(03:25):
for them was becomingincreasingly onerous.
Yes, there were a number offamily things that were
difficult, but for one reason oranother I really crashed and
God gave me a measure ofrestoration.
I went back to work after thesabbatical and then in 2014, I
(03:50):
was speaking for Alastair Beggat his pastors conference called
the Basics in Ohio, and as partof being one of the speaking
team, I was asked if I would doa seminar for pastors on
anything I liked, and I thoughtthis question of struggling with
(04:11):
burnout is very live for me.
So I jotted some things down onthe back of an envelope and did
this seminar.
I had no idea whether theAmerican pastors what they made
of it really, but then, theinternet being what it is, I
began to get messages frompeople different parts of the
world very appreciative for it,because they'd seen the podcast
(04:35):
from it.
So I pitched it to one or twopublishers and the Good Book
Company picked it up and it waspublished as Zeal Without
Burnout and strangely, god seemsto be using it to encourage
different people.
So it's a back story withconsiderable dark times, and
(05:03):
it's probably fair to say thatI've never fully recovered.
I'm not sure you do fullyrecover from that sort of crash.
I mean, I'm functioning, I'mwriting, I'm preaching, I'm
physically healthy, but I thinkmy wife would tell you that I'm
emotionally more fragile than Iwas before those days.
Valerie Ling (05:25):
Christopher, might I ask you what does that mean,
when you say that you neverfully recovered?
Christopher Ash (05:35):
It's hard to distinguish what is simply
getting older and graduallylowering energy levels that come
with being in 60s well, in 60s,rather than ones 40s or 50s.
But I think I'm emotionallymore fragile.
(05:56):
I've always been an up and downsort of personality A doctor
once called it cyclothymic,which I think means up and down,
but not bipolar, and I thinkprobably the downs have been
stronger since then and I'm moreprone to low mood, what earlier
(06:22):
generations would have calledmelancholic, probably, and I'm
probably just more prone to beknocked by discouragements than
I once was, just less robust.
It may not be a bad thing.
Valerie Ling (06:42):
And in the midst of those dark times when you're
experiencing it, were you aware?
Did it creep up on you?
Did it come upon you all of asudden?
What was your experience?
Christopher Ash (06:55):
It was fairly sudden.
It wasn't as sudden as I thinkPeter Adam when he described his
breakdown, which was reallycatastrophic.
From his descriptions and he'sbeen a great help to me and a
kind older friend it was fairlysudden.
(07:15):
It was in the matter ofprobably two or three weeks.
Valerie Ling (07:21):
And, christopher, do you think there might have
been some patterns thatpre-existed even before your
ministry life?
Christopher Ash (07:29):
Yes, I think quite likely.
I think that the way God shapesus in our upbringing and
experiences all manner of things, I sometimes think as a pastor
I struggle to understand otherpeople and I certainly struggle
to understand myself, but I'msure there were patterns.
(07:53):
This may be relevant to yourwork.
I come from a family of highachievers.
I have a brother.
He's not a believer but he's avery, very high achiever, a very
distinguished intellectual andwriter, and both my grandparents
were high achievers and so allthrough my childhood achieving I
(08:18):
wasn't pushed.
My parents were very good atnot pushing me, but that was
what was in front of me as asort of ideal in life to achieve
something with the talents youhave.
And I guess my view is it's notentirely a bad thing.
But like so many things in life, it can get out of proportion
(08:41):
and become a disordered thing.
Valerie Ling (08:45):
And how would you say that related to your
experience then of when youactually went through that
period of burnout?
Christopher Ash (09:02):
It may be linked with the fact that it
came during a not very wellplanned sabbatical period of
study leave which, for variousreasons, partly outside my
control, had become much lessrefreshing time.
But it is partly the sense ofwaking up in the morning and
(09:24):
thinking I'm not sure what Ishould be doing, having had a
very clear sense of what I wasdoing before I was on study
leave.
It was very clear I was in abusy ministry position.
And then you wake up in themorning and think, well, I'm not
sure what I should be doing,and it's maybe not uncommon to
(09:52):
feel a bit lost with that, but Icertainly felt quite lost.
Valerie Ling (09:58):
So one of the things that I found in my survey
of the ministers who completedit is that one of the top
reasons for wanting to leave theministry is loneliness.
Christopher Ash (10:11):
Yes, it's a strange thing, isn't it?
I mean it's a stereotype thatmen are worse at friendship than
women, but there's something init.
In my experience and I'mcertainly not been very good at
friendship I found I mean, longbefore this happened I've had
(10:36):
the practice, most of the timereally, of meeting with two
other men week by week to pray,just to pray for one another.
And I do that now with twofriends at Tyndale House where I
work, and I find that a hugeencouragement.
I think when I hit my I supposeyou'd call it a breakdown I
(10:58):
wasn't at that stage doing that-Okay.
Not for any particularintentional reason, but it had
just dropped off the horizon andI restarted it and that was a
huge encouragement.
There's a great loneliness inministry, especially, I think,
for senior pastors or seniorministers.
(11:18):
Nothing prepares you for theresponsibility under God for the
lives of those placed in yourcare, and even if you've been an
assistant minister in a largechurch, nothing prepares you for
that sense of what intraditional Anglican terms is
(11:41):
called the cure of souls.
It's a tremendousresponsibility and it makes
demands of our walk with theLord and our spiritual lives for
which I suspect many of us arenot very well prepared and could
(12:03):
perhaps be better prepared.
And I wonder if some of ourPuritan forefathers were better
prepared.
They thought more aboutself-examination, they thought
more about their hearts, theythought more about examining
their motivations, and I wonderif we could do more of that.
(12:26):
Particularly, I was justreflecting when thinking about
speaking with you today, being achurch leader at a time when in
Australia or New Zealand or theUnited Kingdom or North America
, broadly Western cultures thetide of our culture is running
(12:50):
so strongly against us.
And even in my lifetime I'mnearly 70, but I remember as a
young Christian in my late teensand then 20s, people thought to
be a Christian was a good thing.
They would apologize to you fornot being a Christian or for
(13:10):
not being what they called avery good Christian.
It was felt to be a good thingand therefore if you were a
minister it was in some way anadmirable thing, Whereas
increasingly now it's very muchthe opposite.
Of course, our brothers andsisters in the persecuted church
have known this all throughchurch history and it shouldn't
(13:31):
surprise us, but it does, andparticularly those who I mean in
my context who serve in thenational church, in the Church
of England.
Because you had a certainstatus, you belonged in society
in some way and increasingly youreally, really don't, and I
(13:53):
think that makes real demands ofour walk with the Lord.
Valerie Ling (13:58):
There is a level of suspicion, some of it rightly
placed by society with some ofthe horrible mistakes that we
have made as a church and asChristians.
But it doesn't necessarily meanthat when you pastor a church,
that your congregants aregenerally trusting and accepting
(14:20):
of you, is it?
Christopher Ash (14:22):
No, no, and I wonder if one of the things that
feeds into pressure onministers at the moment is what
feels like an avalanche ofscandals in different parts of
the world ministry, churchleadership scandals, different
(14:42):
parts of the world, differentkinds of churches, different
denominations but it does feel.
I remember writing down a listjust of people I happened to
know or know of, and it justwent on and on and on, and maybe
my perception is skewed, Maybeit's always been like this, but
(15:04):
it doesn't feel like that andit's demoralizing.
Valerie Ling (15:08):
Oh yes.
Christopher Ash (15:09):
Desperately demoralizing.
Yes.
Valerie Ling (15:12):
Yes, I've often thought about how some of what
we hear in our practice I callit it's about longings and
belongings.
There's a real longing.
The human beings have a desire,a real longing to belong, and
so you know, I'd love to comeback to your point about some of
the practices that perhaps wemay have lost from investing our
(15:35):
sense of belonging in the Lordand what competes with that.
There used to be a sense, Ithink, that perhaps even within
the church you could safely finda space for belonging, whereas
these days we find that theresponses that we're getting
(15:57):
from our pastors, it's thefighting and the quarreling and
the rejection and the shamingthat is in the church that puts
a grenade to that sense ofhere's where I can belong as a
place, not just as a pastor, butthis is my church.
(16:20):
I think that's also very hardfor pastors.
You don't have a church thatyou can go to.
Christopher Ash (16:27):
Oh, I'm sure that's true, and it's not
confined to any particular kindof church government.
You find this in Episcopalianchurches, you find it in
Presbyterian churches,independent churches, all kinds
of churches.
You find this.
It's a precious thing when achurch is a kind of foretaste of
(16:49):
the kingdom of heaven and whenwe really find it is a place of
safety.
But it's really hard when itisn't, and for pastors there's
almost nothing that goes to theheart of a pastor more than a
divided church, whether it'sparty spirit or bitterness or
(17:13):
selfish rivalries.
It's really hard but it's worthour thinking and I'm sure you
think a lot about this how apastor who is seeking to lead a
church that is troubled can beencouraged in the Lord as they
(17:34):
do that work.
Valerie Ling (17:37):
Which returns me to something you said, which is
perhaps some of the practices ofexamining ourselves.
I'd love to find out more aboutyour thoughts about that.
It's not something I know a lotabout.
Christopher Ash (17:53):
It's not something I know a lot about,
but it's something I feel itwould be good for me to know a
little bit more about.
So the Puritans do speak aboutself-examination, an
out-of-proportion introspection.
So we need to look more atChrist and his perfections and
(18:17):
his sufficiency, but nonetheless, there is a place for
self-examination and penitenceconscious, deliberate penitence
so that we repent not justgenerally but specifically of
things that we find in ourhearts and so that we're
(18:41):
actively fighting againstparticular sins.
I sometimes ask myself arethere particular sins that I'm
now fighting against and they'llbe different for different
people at different times.
There's something veryparticular and specific about
that.
I think I've found increasinglythat I have valued in my
(19:04):
personal devotions using some ofthe great prayers, the rich
heritage of prayers throughChristian history.
I'm using a little book ofdevotions which Crossway
published called Lord Be myVision, and it's got wonderful
old prayers from church fathersand reformers and Puritans.
(19:29):
And my wife and I often say oneof those together and there's a
richness in rooting us in Christand there's a lovely book of
Puritan prayers which TimChester has edited we're using
as well, and that those kinds ofanchors into church history can
(19:51):
really help, I think, enrichour walk with the Lord.
Valerie Ling (19:57):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:19):
You mentioned I thought youknow it struck me you began our
conversation by saying that youbelieve yourself to be someone
who's emotionally fragile or afragile personality, and that
you can be prone todiscouragement.
And what really ministered toyou?
Christopher Ash (20:36):
Christopher, I think the love of brothers and
sisters in Christ.
I was preaching in our homechurch just a few months ago and
I slightly shocked people.
It was a passage in one, john,about love for one another.
(20:57):
And I slightly shocked peopleby telling them of a time when I
was in church and nothingtouched me.
The prayers didn't touch me,the singing didn't touch me, the
sermon, the Bible reading,didn't touch me, the sermon
didn't touch me.
I just felt numb because ofvarious sadnesses.
And then a lovely sister inChrist came over to me at the
(21:22):
end of the service and she saidyou're looking a bit down, how
are you doing?
And it was very simple, but thefact that a brother or sister
in Christ had cared and noticedreally got to my heart and
encouraged me.
I went home with a full heartjust simply from that little act
(21:44):
of care and love and concern.
And I think that's, I think itis the encouragement of brothers
and sisters.
When it's not flattery, it'sjust a concern and a care is a
very deep thing.
Valerie Ling (22:00):
I did happen to catch your recording of the talk
that you gave in the UnitedStates.
That was the basis of the book,and at the time you actually
said that you had a son who washimself in ministry.
Christopher Ash (22:16):
I do.
Our oldest son is in ministry.
Valerie Ling (22:18):
yes, Having watched him now.
So we're 2014, or that was whenyou presented that talk and
passed through COVID and thingslike that.
Well, there'd be anythingadditional you would want to put
into the book when you'vewatched your own son go through
this experience?
Christopher Ash (22:38):
I think, the world of our oldest son.
He's a very fine man and a finebeliever and a faithful
disciple and a faithful ministerand considerably more gifted
than me in many, many ways.
I really look up to him in allsorts of ways.
I think the COVID years werereally tough on church leaders,
(23:03):
really really tough.
Just the former student of minehe's in Canada, he's a pastor
and he said it felt like being aworkman with a tool belt, like
a carpenter, and you have a toolbelt with all your tools in it
and you reach for a tool andit's just not there in COVID
because you weren't allowed tomeet and gather and all the
(23:25):
things you would normally do.
I think that was really reallytough.
I think when I watched my sonand his wife, I think the rich
network of edifying, encouragingChristian friendships that they
develop should be warmlyencouraged and actually I think
(23:48):
that his generation is in hislate 30s.
His generation of pastors inBritain are far better than my
generation at doing thatbuilding those networks of
really encouraging friendshipand accountability, the sort of
friendship where somebody canask you some of the harder
(24:11):
questions, and we need that.
Valerie Ling (24:15):
And so might he have studied your book.
Then Zeal Without Burnout andput into place everything he
contributed to it.
Christopher Ash (24:26):
All sorts of little anecdotes and turns of
phrase were his, so he read anearly draft and contributed
considerable wisdom.
I should be passing theroyalties to him.
Valerie Ling (24:39):
There is so much wisdom in that book,
foundational things that are soimportant for mental health and
well-being, and some of thebarriers that we face in
ministry, things like regularworking hours and the fact that
your whole family is exposed toministry.
I still read it and, as apsychology practice, it's one of
(25:02):
the mandatory books that I sayokay, all psychologists working
in the Christian ministry spaceread this book.
Christopher Ash (25:11):
It's kind of you to say that my friend Steve
Midgley, who contributed anappendix on stress.
He and I wrote a book on anger.
Valerie Ling (25:21):
Oh, I've read that too, Christopher.
Christopher Ash (25:23):
Well, just today, about half an hour before
speaking with you, I had anemail from a former student
who's a pastor in Bratislava andexpressing appreciation for
that.
So I shall pass that on toSteve Midgley.
But I think the kinds of thingsthat the biblical counseling
(25:45):
movement at its best have beentrying to bring into the
mainstream of our churchcultures has been really helpful
in thinking what is it to be adisciple now, not simply having
a ticket to the life, to the ageto come, but what does it feel
like and what does it mean towalk with Jesus through this age
(26:08):
?
Valerie Ling (26:10):
Oh, I read the book on anger.
I actually read it right beforeI started to think about
destructive leadership.
So what explains some of thebehaviors that we see in church
leadership?
Is there a?
I was wondering whether therewas a stress pathway to that.
(26:30):
You can feel like your back isup against a wall.
You can freeze, you can run oryou start to fight back.
I was curious about some of thethings that you might have to
say about this emotion anger.
So I'm wondering whether youhad any thoughts or insights
(26:51):
into how the stress on a pastorcan lead to sometimes unhelpful
and inappropriate reactions suchas anger.
Christopher Ash (27:01):
Oh, I think you've really put your finger on
something enormously importantand I can think just in my
experience.
People don't think of me as anangry person, but with the right
stress and the right triggers Ican be apoplectically angry.
(27:22):
Just by God's grace I haven'tlashed out at people, so people
wouldn't be aware of that, butit's there in my heart and I.
It is perhaps one of thegreatest pressures on a pastor
(27:45):
in terms that they walk with theLord when treated badly, when
somebody behaves badly,especially one of those
entrusted to your care, and theybehave badly or they behave
badly towards you.
The disciplines in the Psalmsof taking it to the Lord in
(28:10):
prayer and not lashing out aremuch easier said than done.
I've been just reading veryrecently well, I'm reading
through Calvin's Instituterather late in my life, and the
wonderful pastoral way in whichhe teaches the sovereignty of
(28:32):
God, that God is directing allthings in his providence and
wisdom and the effect of that onthe believer.
A wonderful quotation I jotteddown yesterday.
He says when people treat youbadly, there's an extraordinary
piece that comes from knowingthat you have a Heavenly Father
who is directing and working allthings for your good, so you
(28:56):
don't lash out.
But I think these, thespiritual nature of these things
and the kind of deep engagementwith our spiritual lives, is
very important.
I'm quite certain that you'reright.
There's a stress pathway toanger and of course we only see
(29:19):
the examples where somebody hasto leave ministry because of
behaving very badly andinappropriately with what is
real bullying, not the sort ofimagined bullying where
someone's just forceful, butreal bullying.
We only see that, but, as withmost sin, that there are things
(29:44):
in our hearts which can lead tothat.
Valerie Ling (29:48):
Power being one of them as well, whether we are
aware of it or not.
Christopher Ash (29:54):
Yes, yes, yes, power, and it's not just
institutional power, it's thepower of personality, or the
power that just comes from theway you're regarded.
Of course, some church cultureswill accord the pastor more, a
higher position than others, butthere's always something where
(30:18):
you know more, you're bettereducated in terms of the things
of the Bible than Christ, andthere's a hidden power, or it
may be I mean, in England it'svery much People often talk
about this to do with educationor class very intangible, but
it's not.
(30:38):
That doesn't mean it's not real.
An awareness of the power wemay wield is a first step
towards learning to use it in agodly way.
Valerie Ling (30:54):
The other book that you wrote, which I'm always
trying to get people to readthe book your pastor wishes you
would read, but is tooembarrassed to ask in
parentheses.
Christopher Ash (31:07):
It was the publisher's title.
It's a rather mischievous title, isn't it?
Valerie Ling (31:11):
I love it.
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (31:17):
Sorry, what.
Valerie Ling (31:18):
What prompted that book?
Christopher Ash (31:22):
Well, I think it was just the thought that
when I left the Cornhilltraining course and I was no
longer a practicing pastor so Iwork at Tyndale House they call
me writer-in-residence but Idon't have any duties there, so
I'm not a practicing pastor in achurch.
I preach here and there but Idon't actually have a pastor's
(31:46):
position.
And I was having to come toterms with what is it, when you
were in a pastoral leadershipposition, to be a member of a
Christian church, to be underthe pastoral leadership of your
pastors.
And it's quite a challenge, Ithink, for a number of us when
(32:09):
we're technically retired fromministry to do that.
And that prompted me to think Iwant my minister to be glad
that I'm part of the church heleads, and what sorts of things
make a pastor glad.
And I thought to myself I knowlots of pastors through the
(32:32):
Cornhill training course andother connections.
I've been a pastor.
Maybe I could have a go attrying to sketch out what are
the kinds of things that willrejoice a pastor's heart.
Valerie Ling (32:49):
I loved reading that book because when it came
out I think in 2019, it wasright before the pandemic and I
started to wonder about when wetalk about leadership, there's
also an element of followership.
It's a dance, there's a leaderand then there are followers,
and what constitutes healthyfollowership.
(33:12):
And so when your book came out,I was so excited to read it and
I was so encouraged, I think,just as a human being under
Christ, to say that I can dothis for my pastor.
It's really not thatcomplicated.
Christopher Ash (33:27):
No, it's not that complicated.
No, it's really not thatcomplicated, is it?
Valerie Ling (33:34):
It isn't.
Christopher Ash (33:35):
And I think what struck me was we often
think functionally about what Imight contribute, what gifts I
might have, or what money Imight have to give or something
functional, but actually it'swhen I'm walking with the Lord,
repenting day by day, trustingin Christ, seeking to serve Him.
(33:59):
That's what ought to rejoice apastor's heart, a pastor at
their best.
Pastors are just thrilled tosee that and couldn't care very
much whether people have moneyor gifts.
Actually, of course we do carewhen people have money or gifts,
(34:19):
but it's signs of godlinessthat really, really warm a
pastor's heart.
Valerie Ling (34:27):
Well, it's been a fairly steady result in any
research that has been done inAustralia about clergy
well-being is that ministershave not lost their zeal, if you
like, they find enormousmeaning from serving the Lord
and serving the church.
It is that they are exhaustedand, I think, perhaps, as you
said, deeply discouraged.
(34:48):
So one of the things that Idiscovered in my survey was, by
asking you know what level ofconflict and unpleasant behavior
are you exposed to on a regularbasis?
And that was pretty high.
I mean, it's not something thatI would want to turn up to
regularly, to be frank, butunpleasantness.
(35:10):
And so the book that you have,then, about the joys it comes
down to one fundamentalprinciple it's working on
ourselves, our relationship withJesus, and loving and caring
our past, and doing it together.
Christopher Ash (35:27):
Yes, yes, yes, and you're quite right.
I don't know why you discussedthis, I think, with Archipoulos,
but why this kind of behaviourseems to be more intense these
days.
Perhaps it always has been andI just haven't known about it.
(35:49):
I don't know.
But I think of a good friend ofmine who's really been driven
out of Christian ministry byungodly behaviour of one sort or
another, and it's a terriblething, terrible, terrible thing
to see.
Valerie Ling (36:08):
It's very damaging .
Christopher Ash (36:10):
Oh, very damaging.
It's damaging to a church, it'sdamaging to the pastor or
minister concerned, damaging totheir family.
Valerie Ling (36:21):
And so when you released this book, did you get
much interest, much feedback,much solid.
You know, christopher, we arewith you.
Christopher Ash (36:31):
I got some.
It's a strange thing writing abook to start with you get
nothing, and then maybe somebodyreads it and every now and then
somebody will message you.
No, not a huge amount.
To be honest, I haven't had atremendous amount of feedback.
It may be that all the COVIDthing intervened and everybody
was focusing on that strangeworld that we lived in.
Valerie Ling (36:55):
Yeah, I love that you put it in parentheses.
I think it actually givespermission.
So if anybody is listening tothis podcast, I'd encourage you
to.
You know, purchase a wholestack of that and put it on the
booktables in your church,because it is one of those
things where your pastor can'topenly say this is how I'm
(37:15):
feeling.
This is what would deeplyencourage me.
Christopher Ash (37:19):
I did have some examples where a lay leader, an
elder or a church warden orsomebody had bought copies for
the church council, for theelders or perhaps for the whole
church if it wasn't too big achurch, and that I think in a
way I was hoping for that really, that people would begin to
(37:43):
think, as you say, it's not sovery difficult to do these
things.
Valerie Ling (37:50):
It seems to be in church circles a fear that if
we're too nice or if we don'tget it all out.
You know it's quite combativeat times the way that we
approach conflict.
I find I don't know what it'slike in the UK whether there are
similar combative ways ofdealing with conflict in church.
Maybe it's different.
Christopher Ash (38:15):
I think some of our Australian friends say to
us in the UK that we are muchtoo nice, and I think there's
something in that.
It doesn't mean that we're anybetter, but it's often cloaked
in a veneer of niceness butbehind that the words are spoken
(38:41):
that are like two-edged swordsthat cause great harm.
So we're less likely to have apublic showdown in a church
meeting although that doessometimes happen but it's more
likely to be behind the pastor'sback and then they hear what's
(39:02):
being said and things that arebeing distorted and people that
have the courage to come and saythese things to their face.
Valerie Ling (39:13):
So, eight years on from writing Zeal Without
Burnout, would there be anythingadditional that you would want
to say to a pastor listeninginto our conversation, anything
that you would like them to walkaway with from listening to us?
Christopher Ash (39:30):
I think I would .
It's not so much somethingcompletely new, but I would
reinforce what I tried to sayabout motivation and to resist
the worldliness which is in allour church circles.
(39:50):
That success means largenumbers, success means speaking
at conferences, success meansbeing a well-known preacher so
people download your sermons.
That success, all these worldlymetrics, and to focus really
(40:11):
hard at developing a deep,deeply nourished walk with the
Lord so that we really trustthat, even if nobody ever gets
to hear of us that to be thepastor of a local church, to
care for men and women, to prayfor them, even if we see so, so
(40:33):
little visible fruit, that thatwell-done, good and faithful
servant is the one thing that weare praying to live for.
I think I would just want us toemphasize that even more and
that it is tough and we mustn'tbe pathetic.
(40:57):
We must admit that it is toughand the Lord Jesus told us it
would be hard.
So not to be surprised, but tolearn, to rejoice, to walk with
Jesus and to trust His promises.
Valerie Ling (41:12):
And when times of temptation come to earn that
approval by doing more, takingon more, saying yes to more,
might you have some words ofwisdom.
Christopher Ash (41:24):
Oh that there are times I've developed
something of an expertise atsaying no, and you learn it the
hard way because to start withit's flattering, isn't it?
When somebody says, here's anew ministry opportunity, why
don't you do this?
And you think, oh, howwonderful, they've asked me,
(41:45):
maybe I'm somebody special.
And after a while there areenough scars and knocks and you
think, no, that was justnonsense.
And there is one savior of theworld.
It's not me and it's nevergoing to be me.
And I seek to serve the Lord inmy generation as he gives
(42:07):
strength and of course you getolder, it becomes more and more
necessary because the strengthis less and the energy is less
and will gradually or perhapssuddenly it'll go, and we trust
that the kingdom of God does notultimately depend on us.
Valerie Ling (42:27):
And when times of loneliness and profound
discouragement sets in whatwould be your words of wisdom
there.
Christopher Ash (42:37):
I think it's something that I haven't been
very good at, but it is tocultivate friendships that go on
through the years withChristian brothers and sisters.
I find I value friendshipswhere we've been through some
highs and lows together.
I value those friendships.
(42:59):
I meet, as I'm sure you do,many people who could become
friends and they're lovely,lovely people and I warm to them
and enjoy their company.
But to meet with somebody who'sbeen a friend for 10, 20, 30,
40 years is a wonderful thingand to nurture those friendships
(43:21):
for the times of loneliness.
Valerie Ling (43:23):
Yes, I have to say , my husband and I were in that
season of life.
We aggregate that between thetwo of us, we're in our 50s.
Christopher Ash (43:33):
Very young.
Valerie Ling (43:35):
Yes, we've started to think that, because of the
ministry life we have had, we'venot always had consistent
friendships through the yearsand we're starting to really
deeply think, partly because ofthe wisdom that has come out
from these podcasts, the wisdomof being intentional now to
actually name those people andto ask them will we journey
(43:57):
together for the next decade?
Will we consider some ways thatwe can make our meeting
intentional and more frequent sothat when we are in our 60s,
70s, we will have thosefriendships?
So I think that's so wise.
Christopher Ash (44:15):
I think that's a great thing to do.
Valerie Ling (44:18):
And, finally, if there was a church listening in
to our conversation, it lightedsome of the things that I've
found in my research with theconflict, the loneliness and
also the demands andexpectations that are on pastors
.
What might you want a churchlistening in to walk away with?
Christopher Ash (44:43):
Pray for your pastor.
Encourage your pastor inpreaching.
Encourage everything good thatyou appreciate and encourage
them when they care for you.
Encourage them when they dothat simple thing of getting
(45:04):
alongside you and caring for youand walking with you through
one time or another.
Encourage them in that so thatthey know you don't take it for
granted, so that they know thatyou deeply appreciate that and
you appreciate that more thanwhether they're well-known or
(45:26):
whether they're tremendouslygood organiser or all the other
things that pastors do.
Valerie Ling (45:33):
I actually think that our episode will be the
final word on this podcast.
I said to my husband I'm notquite sure how many you're
supposed to do.
I'll just keep going until Iget to the end, but we've
recorded so many that I'd liketo actually finish by Christmas.
This will be the final word, soI might just leave you with a
(45:55):
thought of might you havesomething final for us to say
here in Australia, families thatmight be listening to this, all
of us here in Australia tryingto grapple with what it means to
serve Jesus and love oneanother and be faithful.
Your last word, christopher Ash.
Christopher Ash (46:21):
What a great privilege.
I think I want to say that Godis faithful and good and wise
and infinitely loving.
He knows exactly what he'sdoing and to belong to Jesus.
There is no greater privilegein the world and whatever
(46:44):
happens in church life, whateverhappens in our culture, God
will make Jesus the head of thenew heavens and the new earth
and all things will be puttogether in him, and let's
rejoice in that.
Valerie Ling (47:00):
Thank you so much.
I think I will be listening onthose words time and time again.
Christopher, Thank you so muchfor spending your time with me.
It's been such a joy.
Christopher Ash (47:10):
Oh, it's been a privilege for me.
Thank you, Valerie, very much.
May the Lord strengthen you inyour work.
Valerie Ling (47:16):
Thank you, friends and listeners.
You have now come to the verylast episode of the Clarity
Wellbeing Down Under podcast.
It's been a joy to be with youfor this last season and we wish
you and yours a blessedChristmas and happy new year
straight from the hearts of theLing family as well as from the
(47:40):
team of the Centre for EffectiveLiving and the Centre for
Effective Serving.
We look forward to seeing youvery likely next year for season
two.
Take care and thank you.
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