October 25, 2023 • 42 mins
Join Dr. Chelsea Gill from Bond Business School as we explore the topic of reflective retreats. Chelsea, with her deep insights into clergy retreats, examines the role of attention restoration theory in counteracting mental and emotional exhaustion.
We discuss two core types of clergy retreats, educational and reflective, and their structures. Chelsea explains attentional fatigue common among clergy and offers solutions to restore mental energy. Our conversation dives into the elements making reflective retreats impactful, spotlighting social activities and professional development as essential for clergy wellbeing.
We also discuss crafting retreats for optimal rejuvenation and share practical tips for activities and taking breaks from technology and work. The emotional benefits of retreats are pivotal for clergy to effectively serve their communities. We conclude by addressing the rhythm and emotional aspects of retreats, emphasizing the need for support in processing emotions. Tune into this episode for valuable insights on enhancing clergy wellbeing through retreats so much so you will want to Advance and not Retreat. To contact Chelsea: chgill@bond.edu.au
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Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:01):
Dear listener, welcome to another episode of
the Clergy Wellbeing Down Underpodcast.
It's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI am your host for today.
The podcast is being producedunder the banner of the Centre
for Effective Serving, which isa leadership and workplace
well-being consulting arm that Ilead.
(00:21):
I also lead a Centre forEffective Living, which is a
psychology practice located inSydney.
Many of our psychologists areChristians and on any given week
are supporting our ministry andmission families of here in
Australia and around the world.
(00:42):
We are currently recruiting fortwo full-time equivalent
positions, that is, forpsychologists to join the Centre
for Effective Living to workwith us in our mission to see a
world without burnout.
If you know someone who is aregistered psychologist, a
(01:04):
student who is soon to be aregistered psychologist, someone
who is planning to move toAustralia and would love to be
registered as a psychologist,would you send them our way?
The best thing to do is to sendthem a link
wwweffectivelivercomau.
(01:24):
Slash join-our-team.
I'll put the link in thepodcast description as well.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hi everyone, I have got DrChelsea Gill with me today.
Hi, chelsea, hi.
Dr Chelsea Gill (01:45):
Valerie.
Valerie Ling (01:46):
You are an assistant professor of
management at Bond BusinessSchool, is that correct?
Dr Chelsea Gill (01:52):
Correct.
Yes, I've been to Queensland onthe Gold Coast.
Valerie Ling (01:55):
Beautiful and you are also a ministry spouse, I
think.
Is that correct?
Dr Chelsea Gill (02:00):
Yes, Correct, yes.
Valerie Ling (02:03):
So you're a wonderful person to chat with
today and you and I connectedbecause you had reached out to
connect with your own research,which is very interesting in
terms of retreats and some ofthe practices that pastors can
put into place for their ownwellbeing.
(02:24):
So what motivated that, Chelsea?
Dr Chelsea Gill (02:30):
Good question.
Many people ask me that becauseit is a very niche topic.
Not everyone is interested inbeing married to a clergyman.
As you mentioned, I experiencedfirst hand the joys and the
tough times of ministry life andI was well aware that every
(02:50):
denomination offers retreats fortheir clergy on an annual basis
, and often these are stronglyencouraged, if not mandated.
And because I was already inthe academic sector and teaching
in higher education, I verymuch value research and
(03:11):
evidence-based practice, and Istarted to explore whether there
was any evidence underlying thedesign of these retreats and
the continued use of them, andthere appeared to be no academic
research that I could find inthat space.
So I guess that was one primarymotivation for embarking on
(03:31):
that journey.
But also, with all of thestressors and demands that we
all face, our attentionalcapacities are constantly being
drawn upon, and that is, are youmore uniquely experienced by
(03:52):
ministers because of theirclergy context?
And so, combining both of thosethings the attentional fatigue
that all of us experience, butwhich is often exacerbated in a
clergy context, and the lack ofempirical research around the
value of retreats, led me tothen pursue a PhD and explore
(04:12):
this further.
Valerie Ling (04:14):
Okay, and how did you define what a retreat is?
Dr Chelsea Gill (04:20):
In my research I was specifically looking
within the Christian context andframework, and a retreat for my
purposes was a time thatconsisted of at least three days
away from the normal place ofresidence, so it had to be
(04:43):
offsite and a continual threedays or more.
That was purposely designed forclergy and the retreats.
There's a breadth of types ofretreats, so predominantly it
was a minimum of three days awayfrom your traditional space, to
(05:04):
put it bluntly.
Valerie Ling (05:06):
Okay.
Dr Chelsea Gill (05:08):
But within the retreats there were educational
retreats or restorative retreats.
That was how I classified thedifferent retreats, so some
denominations.
Within Australia would they alluse the term retreats in
general, but for my purposes Ithen classified educational
(05:30):
retreats as retreats where therewas a more structured program
and there were input sessions.
So there were some teachingsessions or some topics that
would be presented by a speakerand then potentially discussed,
as opposed to reflectiveretreats, which were much more
(05:53):
unstructured.
There was less of a program.
Within the reflective retreats,though, some were completely
silent and no speaking wasallowed.
Other retreats I classified asnon-silent reflective retreats
and those retreats had to haveat least three hours of silence
per day in order to be classedas a reflective retreat.
Valerie Ling (06:18):
Okay, so I'm looking at your infographic here
, which we will link with thepodcast, and so we've got.
You've got, on the one hand,all of the stresses that have
been well documented forministry, and then you've got
interestingly, you've gotprolonged mental effort and
mental fatigue that goes todiminished cognitive capacity.
(06:40):
That's is that like the jobs,demands, resources, type of
pathway, or it's a little bitdifferent.
It's got to do with attention,maybe.
Dr Chelsea Gill (06:50):
Attention restoration theory was my
underpinning framework, and soit posits that we are all using
our attentional capacities dailyand our attentional capacities
are of a finite resource.
They shrink Because we areconstantly focusing attention.
(07:11):
It's almost an endangeredresource because, whether it's
at work or at home, we areconstantly being forced to focus
our attention.
So attention restoration theoryit claims that mental fatigue
is actually caused by ourattentional capacity being
drained.
(07:31):
So it's a cognitive theory.
It comes from environmentalpsychology and although previous
research has looked at wellbeing strategies or emotional
strategies for clergy, there wasnothing in the cognitive space.
So this is trying to understandwell, how does our attentional
capacities work and what can wedo to restore them, according to
(07:55):
the framework which Rachel andStephen Kaplan coined in about
the late 1980s.
So there's been a lot ofempirical research over the last
three decades that havevalidated this across numerous
contexts.
But they suggest that attentioncan be subdivided into two
parts.
We have involuntary attentionand we have directed attention.
(08:17):
So involuntary attention iswhere we are just effortlessly
fascinated by something you know.
When you walk down the beach oryou walk outside and you see a
beautiful tree or a bird, yourmind is just drawn to the beauty
and it's so easy for you tofocus attention on that.
It's a positive thing.
(08:37):
Contrast that with voluntary ordirected attention.
That's what we do when we're atwork and not enjoying a task or
where we're having to do things.
And the more we use directedattention, the more fatigued we
become.
If we can engage theinvoluntary attentional
capacities more often, thetheory argues that we will have
(09:00):
improved cognitive capacityrather than diminished cognitive
capacity.
So by spending time in arestorative environment,
hopefully we start to feel muchbetter.
And according to the theory,there's different
characteristics of a restorativeenvironment and there's
different benefits ofrestorative environments.
(09:20):
So that was the framework thatthen shaped my research.
Valerie Ling (09:26):
Do you think that clergy have more attentional
demands, or is it a leadershipthing?
Or right now in society, whatdo you think?
Dr Chelsea Gill (09:34):
I think it's a society-wide phenomenon that's
going on, but with the clergy,the unique aspect here is the
interface between thosework-related stressors and the
boundary-related stressorsrelating to the homework
interface, which is verydifficult to separate.
They can't just go home andswitch off, like many people can
(09:55):
from the workplace, because ofthe nature of the 24-7 demands
that when a crisis happens withsomeone in your parish you can't
say, oh sorry, I'm not workingtonight, it's my day off.
If there's been a tragedy, yourespond.
So I think the constant demandson clergy attention really
exacerbate this issue.
Valerie Ling (10:18):
So from.
I'm thinking sort of inmultiple spaces now.
Firstly, thinking about howvery sure our attentions are all
being impacted.
Thinking around environmentgrabs our attention.
Any business marketing programI've attended has told me that
the new currency is not time,it's attention.
(10:39):
Whoever can grab someone'sattention, you try to hold them
and then all the algorithms getthat.
I think people are used tosound bites as well.
People get impatient, so theywant you to move on, and so
you're getting smaller andsmaller windows really to
recharge and recover.
(10:59):
So that's probably likesocietal thing, which means that
at a leadership level let's saynot clergy, but just at a
leadership level that mentaltaxing.
I was noticing it even formyself that there's not a lot of
simple things I can do anymore.
Everything needs my attention,Absolutely so deep and focused,
(11:22):
and I have to do it quickly,quickly, quickly, quickly,
quickly.
So what I'm hearing you say isthe additional loading for
people in ministry is theboundaries are blurred as well.
You don't have a clear switchoff or a clock off.
Dr Chelsea Gill (11:35):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (11:38):
And that whole thing of the impact of family.
That's like your attention justkeeps going, doesn't it?
Because even if you're at home,away from church, you're still
very aware of holding everythingthat's happening.
Dr Chelsea Gill (11:52):
And some clergy live on site next to the church
, so physically they're notactually very far away from the
church building.
Valerie Ling (12:00):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (12:01):
And with technology social media it's
just so constant the demands onour attention.
That's why it's an endangeredresource if we want to use
strong language.
Valerie Ling (12:10):
Yeah Well, I've got a bit of an interesting
story.
When we were living in a man's,I hadn't realized that I was
doing all this vigilance aboutthe house, because, no matter
how thick skinned I am that'sapparently subconsciously I'm
still thinking if anybody wouldhave drove past the house and
saw this, you know.
And then we moved back into ourown home and I was noticing how
(12:33):
I was doing all these habitualthings and then I stopped to
think why am I doing this?
For example, the weed, thesmall, tiny little speck of a
weed that was growing out of thedriveway, you know, the cement
grout, like that thing.
I was like picking them all out.
I said wait a minute, why am Idoing this?
Like this can wait.
(12:54):
And I realized oh, becausesubconsciously, without even
realizing it, it was just partof my routine, because I didn't
want to you know, for whateverreasons drive by and look at the
front and go oh my gosh, yes,what?
When you say endangeredresource, what do you mean by
(13:16):
that?
Dr Chelsea Gill (13:18):
I think it's something that requires us to
acknowledge the fragility of ourattentional capacity in order
to ensure that we can takecertain actions to guarantee we
have restored cognitive capacity.
(13:38):
It's unrealistic to assume that24 seven we're going to be
feeling cognitively fabulous,but to be aware that if we don't
nurture and take care of ourattentional resources, that can
then lead us down a difficultpath and mental fatigue.
The flow on effects of that canbe drastic, as you know, with
(14:00):
burnout and those types ofthings.
So I'm suggesting that we needto be a little bit more
proactive and preventativebefore it gets too late and
takes a lot longer to then bringthat restorative functioning
back.
Valerie Ling (14:17):
Yeah, and so this is where your research into the
retreats come in, and I'm justlooking here.
You were saying that there wasa difference, isn't it, between
attending an education basedretreat and a more reflective
retreat.
Would that be right?
So, what's in an educationalretreat Is that where you're
(14:39):
turning out for workshops andseminars, and those types of
things.
Dr Chelsea Gill (14:43):
Yes, and that may look different depending on
the domination, depending on theyear, etc.
But at the end of the daythere's several sessions a day,
probably at least two.
Valerie Ling (14:53):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (14:54):
And for some denominations that might
actually be quite a spacious andrelaxing retreat.
But there's still two inputsessions at least a day and
mentally that while it could beintentionally trying to give
some professional developmentopportunities, it is still
taxing mentally.
Valerie Ling (15:16):
Yeah, so you're still getting cognitive input.
Okay, and so what have youactually found?
What seemed to be the type ofretreat that was most beneficial
?
Dr Chelsea Gill (15:30):
So, first off, all retreats that I looked at,
across several denominations, interms of a relaxed mental state
and whether people felt bettermentally after the retreat, all
of the retreats led to apositive increase in that
measurement.
However, it was the reflectiveretreats that gave a larger
(15:54):
benefit as opposed toeducational retreats and within
the reflective retreats, silentretreats offered more
restorative benefits on siteduring the actual experience,
but after the retreat,consistently with all the other
types of retreats, the benefitssubside fairly quickly.
(16:17):
So I looked at a two-weekfollow-up and, regardless of the
retreat type, there had been adecline in the relaxed mental
state, and that's understandable.
Once you're back at workthere's all of the usual
stressors.
You have to catch up oneverything.
So the retreats were beneficial.
The silent retreats were themost beneficial on site.
Valerie Ling (16:43):
How do you define a silent retreat?
Absolutely no talkingwhatsoever, correct?
I think I would retreat fromthat retreat.
Dr Chelsea Gill (16:50):
Some people love it, some people hate it.
But interestingly, even in acompletely silent retreat, one
of the benefits thatparticipants shared with me was
the social benefits, and thatseems quite unusual, in a bit of
a paradox, because they're nottalking to anyone, but they felt
a sense of companionship, ofsolidarity, that these other
(17:14):
people who are with me insilence, they understand, they
empathize, they know what I'mgoing through.
We're on this journey together,so I found that fascinating
that, despite not speaking, theystill felt socially connected
and that was a real positive,because often clergy feel quite
isolated and they need to becareful who they entrust
(17:34):
themselves to when they'restruggling with things.
Yeah, that was unexpected, froman unexpected finding.
Valerie Ling (17:42):
I think there's some suggestion that there's a
probably a higher number ofpeople who identify with
introversion, who select to gointo.
The ministry is a fairlyreflective, somewhat scholarly
pathway as well.
So I wonder if it is havingtime to actually introspect.
Not have everybody's voices,just able to be alone with yours
(18:05):
and in the companionship ofother like minded individuals
probably was quite restful.
So I'm wondering whathypothesis you might have had as
to why they had different likeokay, I can, I think.
I think I get why any retreatis better than nothing the
environment, you're probablygoing to eat better, you're
(18:28):
resting a little bit more, butyou know what's happening in
these reflective retreats thathad improvement not only on site
but even after.
Dr Chelsea Gill (18:41):
I was trying to investigate that a bit further
by looking at the, theenvironment, the activities and
different experiences that theparticipants had, which would
lead to either immediaterestorative outcomes or longer
term restorative outcomes, in mycase measured only at a two
(19:01):
week follow up.
Yeah when it came to immediaterestorative outcomes, being in
an environment which wasfascinating, which captivated
their attention effortlessly.
So the retreat centre mighthave been in the forest as
opposed to a city motel, seem tobe positive.
(19:23):
Participating in activities,like some reflective quiet times
, some spiritual worshipactivities or relaxation
activities, certainly promotedrestorative, immediate outcomes.
When it came to enduringrestorative outcomes, though,
social activities whether thatwas spoken or not, it that was
(19:45):
valued and helped peoplemaintain those benefits for
longer, perhaps because theycould reach out to those
colleagues who perhaps they hadbonded with Injuring.
Restorative outcomes werepromoted by some sort of
professional developmentactivity.
That happened on retreat, whichmay or may not have been
completely structured.
They still may have engaged insome personal growth through
(20:07):
their spiritual reflections.
That were done privately, forexample, but across all retreat
types, certainly the fact thatthey were mentally away from
their normal environment, thatthey participated in activities
and that they did not engagewith technology.
Valerie Ling (20:25):
Right.
Dr Chelsea Gill (20:25):
That was a big plus.
A few participants did, almostwith a sense of guilt, admit to
me that they were checking theirphones and their emails because
they were dealing with crises.
One one person shared with methat there was a couple of
funerals that had to beorganised, or the need for them
arose while they were on retreatand they did not feel
(20:49):
comfortable, or that it wasappropriate to ignore that need.
Valerie Ling (20:55):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back to it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going, yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (21:19):
So it's a tart.
I mean, in this day and age, toto not check emails or your
phone for three days.
Some people feel completelyvulnerable and naked not doing
that, but there are benefitswhen we are able to do that.
Valerie Ling (21:34):
Yeah.
So if I want to go back to yourlist, I think the environment
that.
I think that's really verytelling because I think even in
a post, like through thepandemic with you know, people
working from home and thingslike that are not stepping out.
Nature has always been found tobe restorative.
I think it uses a differentpart of our brain.
It's a more sensory orientated,a more grounded experience.
(21:58):
So that makes sense to me.
Engaging in the relaxationactivities makes sense to me as
well, because people in ministryoften have traumatic stress
that they hold in their body.
The body's all hunched up and,all you know, ready to fight,
fight or freeze.
That makes, I think, the socialis interesting.
So we had another podcastepisode with Megan, who's with
(22:22):
the Baptist church, and you knowwe were talking about
loneliness and you know thatwhen you actually have
camaraderie, a sense of we'redoing it together, you don't
have to be talking shop, youdon't have to be talking about
any deeper meaningful things,but just a sense that, oh, we're
doing, we're at it together,we're friends.
That makes sense to me.
Dr Chelsea Gill (22:44):
And the relationships clergy have within
their church pastoralrelationships compared to
friendships.
That's another dynamic that'squite different from other
professions.
Valerie Ling (22:57):
Yeah, and it's still.
It has a heavy attention on.
It never switches off, becauseI can discharge a client after
15, 20 sessions or I can go home, but you never do that with
your ministry, with your parish.
They're always on your mind andon your heart, right?
The no-tech thing makes senseto me as well.
I think we.
So long as you're connectedonline, you just have an
(23:21):
awareness that things are goingon and then a sense that you've
got to check in.
So the spiritual reflections ofthat.
If we look at some of thethings that I was finding, and
others have found as well thatwhile clergy may have a
reflective posture, what theyreflect on seems to make the
(23:42):
difference, you know, because itcan be the difference between
rumination and worry or actuallyrestoring a sense of wellbeing.
So I think that's interesting.
Dr Chelsea Gill (23:55):
And the attention restoration theory,
the underpinning framework I'veused.
The four steps of therestorative process that emerge
from spending time in a naturalenvironment, a restorative
environment, are fairlystraightforward and they make
sense.
Valerie Ling (24:14):
Hey.
So at this point in the podcastI've had to edit and add
something in because I gotcarried away and didn't actually
let Chelsea, I think, finishwhat her four steps to
restorative process is during aretreat.
So here it is.
Number one clearing the mind,and she's got an example here
(24:35):
from a participant that says ittakes a while just to calm down.
You're rushing for all thistime and then all of a sudden
you stop.
You've got to get rid of allthat access, adrenaline and just
breathe, and that takes atleast 24 hours.
Number two recovery of directedattention, and the example is
(24:59):
there's a strong sense ofreality, without static not the
noise going on and the pace thatI'm going at slows down and a
certain clarity of where I'vecome from and where I'm going,
but there's a sense that I'mable to move forward easier
because I've left the pastbehind.
Then there's a step three,reflecting on immediate problems
(25:21):
and the example, because it wasa different situation to the
normal environment I'm in.
I didn't need to reflect on thethings of business, I could
reflect on the things of God andit took primary place.
And step number four,reflecting on priorities and the
future and the example it'sreally about coming back to base
(25:44):
all the time.
I see a retreat as being achance to get resented and to
look at strategies for whenyou're back, to keep that more
in place where it's fallen awayover the past 12 months for this
or that reason.
And one of the comments from aretreat participant was I don't
(26:04):
know why it's called retreat,why it's not called advance,
because it's a moving forward.
So do check out the downloadsin the description of the
podcast and you will actually beable to get Chelsea's full
infographic and how to do aretreat based on her research.
Now back to the podcast.
Dr Chelsea Gill (26:29):
But the first thing is the mind is cleared of
cognitive clutter, of the noise.
It's just you're breathingdeeply, you're taken by the
beauty around you andautomatically things just go
away from your, the front ofyour mind.
That thing gives you thecapacity to recover the ability
to direct attention once again,but you've got a bit more
(26:51):
control over it because you'refeeling a bit more refreshed.
So you can choose to focusattention on the most pressing
demands or problems that you'refacing.
But you've got a clearerviewpoint because the noise has
been shifted and that theneventually enables someone to
reflect more deeply on thefuture and be more proactive in
(27:14):
setting their priorities andrealigning if they feel that
they've been taken off courseslightly because of needs or
demands.
So it's quite a natural thing.
Your mind is cleared.
You then can refocus attentionon the things that are important
and then that lets you focusmore longer term again.
Valerie Ling (27:32):
Yeah.
So I have a practice of goingfor a retreat every quarter.
It's usually a three days, twonights type of thing.
So I'm going to go through yourrecommendations and see how my
retreat practice, whether I'vegiven myself a restorative, have
a retreat venue situated in ascenic, quiet, natural setting.
I really, truly believe thatthat makes a difference.
(27:54):
The times when I'm doing thehotel stays are not as restful
for me as I've been in nature,and so I usually say do I want
mountain or beach, like, whichis the one I want but definitely
, prior to the retreat, reflecton what they're expecting from
the experience.
So for me, every quarter is awellbeing check-in, a check-in
(28:17):
with how I'm doing spiritually,emotionally, and really just
spend some time figuring out,sort of congratulating myself
for anything that I'm feelingtanked up on, but being aware of
what are some of my needs.
Dr Chelsea Gill (28:32):
Mm.
That point around thecompatibility.
That comes out of thetheoretical framework again and
the reasoning behind it is thatif someone can have an
appropriate expectation andanticipate what they're likely
to experience, it solidifies ina positive way the outcome.
(28:53):
So if someone comes into aretreat, they're expecting it to
be horrible.
They don't want to be there.
That's going to have an impacton how they're feeling and then
affect the longer-term benefits.
Valerie Ling (29:04):
So if you Well, that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense becauseit's like it's another
attentional demand If you don'twant to be there and you're so
many things, other things you'drather do.
Whereas I find that my bodycraves, it knows that it's time
for a pit, stop it Because I'mso used to the rhythm of it.
I just find and just sleepingvery well.
(29:25):
I just that's probably one ofmy main aims catch up on sleep.
Dr Chelsea Gill (29:29):
That's great, you've got that proactive
schedule in place.
Valerie Ling (29:34):
Encourage participants to disconnect from
technology and work andresponsibilities.
Yes, so all stop for me.
Usually have a book with me.
Three hours of quiet time forrelaxation and reflection yes,
definitely, there's a tick.
Build flexibility into theprogram.
Oh, this is where, for me, it'slike I just want to say I just
say yes to the things.
(29:54):
I want to say yes to no, it'sthe things I want to say yes, so
I'm just sleeping in, Sometimeshaving a huge brunch and
enjoying fruit or going for awalk yeah it's.
I think it's just givingattention to non-responsible
doing for others and justgrounding yourself in what is
(30:14):
the purpose of why we're here.
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:18):
And at retreat.
Sometimes, or quite oftenactually, clergy would share
with me that they felt like theyhad to turn up for breakfast at
this time or attend the sessionor have this particular type of
quiet time, but they wanted theflexibility and choice.
Valerie Ling (30:34):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:35):
So I've turned that into a positive for the
future.
That's what we should be doinggiving them that flexibility.
Valerie Ling (30:40):
Yeah, absolutely what do you?
What?
I don't know whether you haveany insight on this from what
you were doing, but what happensto people emotionally when
their attention is, you know,when they have this restorative
time or their reflectivereflective?
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:56):
time.
Sometimes it can beoverwhelmingly sad or unexpected
emotions may come to thesurface.
So it's not always a pleasantretreat experience and several
people shared that.
Look, it was not traumatic perse, but it wasn't comfortable.
It wasn't happy at the time, Ididn't enjoy it, but it was
necessary.
(31:16):
It was part of the process ofstripping off the yucky stuff
that had piled up and gettingback to the basics and feeling
re-centred, re-oriented, youknow, with Christ back at the
center rather than other thingsthat have perhaps distracted
them.
Valerie Ling (31:32):
Yeah, yeah, I know of some, some friends who have
been on retreats where you knowit was a time where everything
just spilled out the grief, theloss came out.
So it can also feel like a veryuncontained space if you don't
know where to go and I thinkthat's where your emotions give
(31:52):
you an indication, a signal,right and if you don't take time
to retreat and reflect, youwon't know what's been held up
there.
Hard to think of the well-beingprocesses that I think are
really important is that you dohave someone to go to, someone
to call someone to talk itthrough, someone to process that
material once it comes up, notbury it all back in again and
(32:17):
try to have a successful retreat.
Dr Chelsea Gill (32:19):
Yes, and if we're not looking after
ourselves, as clergy, lookingafter themselves, how can they
be at their best to help othersjust so constantly?
They need to take time toself-care, and it's not a bad
thing, it's not a selfish thingto do, it's a necessary thing.
Valerie Ling (32:35):
Yeah, and did you have a recommendation for the
rhythm?
How often?
Dr Chelsea Gill (32:42):
I would suggest at least annually, which is the
norm for most organisations,for most denominations.
But I think at a personal level, clergy can be proactive and
take initiative to have morefrequent restorative experiences
and that could occur on a dailybasis, a micro restorative
experience.
There's plenty of scientificliterature that talks about the
(33:06):
value of having a window withsome nice views or some greenery
or having a fresh plant in theoffice, just to you know,
captivate your attention, evenfor five or 10 seconds.
It does improve yourattentional capacity.
So, on a daily basis, beingable to go for a walk or
whatever it is that iscompatible with someone's
(33:28):
preferences, that's in nature orthat connects them with nature,
is a positive.
Also, on a weekly basis, whetherit's a formal Sabbath taking,
if you like, or if it's lessspiritual and just taking time
out to be with friends or to donothing, that's a real positive.
So I think micro restorativeexperiences on a daily, a weekly
(33:51):
, a monthly basis are goodrhythms to get into.
But then a longer term three,five, seven day annual retreat
would be a good idea if possible, if the retreat is purposely
designed and compatible withwhat the person is looking for,
that they're not feeling forced,that they're not feeling
(34:14):
uncomfortable with the format.
I think that's crucial todistinguish between that.
Having a retreat that theperson hates, that they don't
want to be there, that theystrongly disagree with, that is
not helpful.
Valerie Ling (34:26):
Now Chelsea, I'm having some memory of an email
trail.
Where did you say that you andyour hubby actually offer
retreats?
Dr Chelsea Gill (34:34):
We were a couple of years ago.
This year we haven't, but we dohope to get back into that.
It's something we're passionateabout and it was not just for
clergy, but we certainly hadseveral clergy attend.
I was starting to put theseprinciples into practice and
design those retreats, so if wemight do that again.
Valerie Ling (34:55):
If anybody is looking for a way to structure a
helpful reflective restorativeretreat, do you have any
suggestions as to where theymight go for that?
Dr Chelsea Gill (35:10):
Not off the top of my head.
I'm aware that there'sdifferent retreat centres that
operate, but again, often thatis dependent on a person's
preferences for what they mightprefer.
There's a few differentperspectives on whether a
(35:31):
self-directed retreat isbeneficial or whether a retreat
that is directed by anexperienced person who's got
some reasons behind why they'redoing it this way is a better
option.
It could be something to thinkthrough.
I think there's certainly valuein the self-directed retreats
at times, but I think there isalso value in having the
(35:51):
corporate gathering, a smallgroup 5, 10, 20 like-minded
people, clergy in this context,where there may be a retreat
facilitator who may or may notbe providing a strong format and
sessions, but there's still apurpose behind it and it's a
(36:12):
social connection as well.
I think there's value in that.
So there's two streams ofthought there.
Is it self-directed or is itled by a retreat facilitator?
Valerie Ling (36:21):
Yeah, and I suspect maybe one is related to
another.
So if you have never done thisbefore self-directed, you may
not.
You might be at a loss.
You might want to attendsomething that's led and then
have some exposure to that andfigure out what are some of the
things that really gave you therest, and then you can put
together some things foryourself.
Dr Chelsea Gill (36:43):
And to distinguish it from a holiday,
an annual holiday different toan annual retreat.
In my thoughts, yeah,absolutely so.
Valerie Ling (36:58):
if there was a minister listening in to us
today, what's one thing youwould love for them to take away
from our chat today?
Dr Chelsea Gill (37:07):
Take time to engage in restorative
experiences.
Find out what nurtures you, notjust that you feel good, but at
a cognitive level.
What helps you regain thecapacity to think more clearly,
to focus on things and to thinklonger term, not just
(37:32):
immediately reacting to thesituational demands.
That's not a healthy state tostay in.
What can you do to regain thefuller cognitive capacity to
give you that broader, longerterm perspective, which
obviously then helps you be moreaffected in the day to day
living?
Valerie Ling (37:51):
Yeah, and it's not just more caffeine.
Dr Chelsea Gill (37:55):
Certainly not.
Valerie Ling (37:58):
If there was a church that was listening to us,
because some people have gottentheir pastoral care committee
subscribed to the podcast, oreven parish council.
What might you like them toconsider for their ministry team
?
Dr Chelsea Gill (38:16):
I would love to see more research done in this
space.
So if there are church groupsor pastoral care committees,
those kinds of cohorts that areinterested in this space, I
think it would be useful toconnect, to collaborate, to
dialogue and to learn from bestpractice, rather than all of us
struggling and fumbling our waythrough and some things work,
(38:38):
some things don't.
Let's have a conversation,let's help each other, let's
draw on the research, andsometimes I worry that in church
zones we don't draw on bestpractice principles from
academic literature, managementresearch, scientific research.
I'm not saying it's alwayswonderful that we should do that
(39:00):
, but I think we need some morecross-pollination of that,
because there is plenty of highquality, grounded research that
gives us frameworks throughwhich we can interpret reality
and what's going on.
Like this research that I'vedone, for example, it was
empirically based, there wasvalidated measures that I used.
(39:25):
There was research methodologythat I embarked on so that we
could move beyond just thefeelings and our own
subjectivities and try tounderstand at a richer level
what's going on, because then wecan all learn from that and we
can all benefit and we're thericher for it.
(39:46):
So I'd love to see morecollaboration, more connections,
but more research being done inthis space.
Burnout well-being it's highlytopical in the academic world
right now for research andretreats are still the poor
cousin.
I think it will become moreprominent in coming years as we
all become more centred aboutwell-being and HR officers.
(40:07):
It's the new trend well-beingfocuses, but where's the
empirical research?
And it would be wonderful if,as a church at large, we can
engage and partner with thatspace as well.
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Yeah, I'm having these really interesting
thoughts.
I don't mean to minimise whatyou said, but I think it is
quite interesting to you know ifwe did actually take an
interest in doing some surveys,sort of pre-mid post, we might
find out some information that Isaid might also be unique to
our particular context perhaps,or a church context.
(40:43):
Feedback is always so important, I think.
Dr Chelsea Gill (40:47):
Absolutely, and I'm not sure that it's
something we usually do well ina church, because it is quite
sad.
Valerie Ling (40:55):
Why, bob Carson, I can say this yeah, I'm saying.
Very well, I don't know that weknow how to give feedback.
Dr Chelsea Gill (41:01):
Well, and let's celebrate what we do well, but
let's have proper data andproper analysis to support our
conclusions so that we areengaging our brain in that
process and not just basing itall on feeling.
Valerie Ling (41:18):
Yeah, perfect.
Thank you so much for your time, chelsea.
I've really enjoyed chattingwith you and I am looking
forward to not only airing thisepisode but also putting the
link to your information sohelpful about what to consider
when you're actually having aretreat.
So thank you so much forchatting with me.
Dr Chelsea Gill (41:36):
Thank you, Valerie, and happy to chat with
anyone who's interested inlearning more about retreats.
Thanks for your time.
Dear listener, welcome to another episode of
the Clergy Wellbeing Down Underpodcast.
It's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI am your host for today.
The podcast is being producedunder the banner of the Centre
for Effective Serving, which isa leadership and workplace
well-being consulting arm that Ilead.
(00:21):
I also lead a Centre forEffective Living, which is a
psychology practice located inSydney.
Many of our psychologists areChristians and on any given week
are supporting our ministry andmission families of here in
Australia and around the world.
(00:42):
We are currently recruiting fortwo full-time equivalent
positions, that is, forpsychologists to join the Centre
for Effective Living to workwith us in our mission to see a
world without burnout.
If you know someone who is aregistered psychologist, a
(01:04):
student who is soon to be aregistered psychologist, someone
who is planning to move toAustralia and would love to be
registered as a psychologist,would you send them our way?
The best thing to do is to sendthem a link
wwweffectivelivercomau.
(01:24):
Slash join-our-team.
I'll put the link in thepodcast description as well.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hi everyone, I have got DrChelsea Gill with me today.
Hi, chelsea, hi.
Dr Chelsea Gill (01:45):
Valerie.
Valerie Ling (01:46):
You are an assistant professor of
management at Bond BusinessSchool, is that correct?
Dr Chelsea Gill (01:52):
Correct.
Yes, I've been to Queensland onthe Gold Coast.
Valerie Ling (01:55):
Beautiful and you are also a ministry spouse, I
think.
Is that correct?
Dr Chelsea Gill (02:00):
Yes, Correct, yes.
Valerie Ling (02:03):
So you're a wonderful person to chat with
today and you and I connectedbecause you had reached out to
connect with your own research,which is very interesting in
terms of retreats and some ofthe practices that pastors can
put into place for their ownwellbeing.
(02:24):
So what motivated that, Chelsea?
Dr Chelsea Gill (02:30):
Good question.
Many people ask me that becauseit is a very niche topic.
Not everyone is interested inbeing married to a clergyman.
As you mentioned, I experiencedfirst hand the joys and the
tough times of ministry life andI was well aware that every
(02:50):
denomination offers retreats fortheir clergy on an annual basis
, and often these are stronglyencouraged, if not mandated.
And because I was already inthe academic sector and teaching
in higher education, I verymuch value research and
(03:11):
evidence-based practice, and Istarted to explore whether there
was any evidence underlying thedesign of these retreats and
the continued use of them, andthere appeared to be no academic
research that I could find inthat space.
So I guess that was one primarymotivation for embarking on
(03:31):
that journey.
But also, with all of thestressors and demands that we
all face, our attentionalcapacities are constantly being
drawn upon, and that is, are youmore uniquely experienced by
(03:52):
ministers because of theirclergy context?
And so, combining both of thosethings the attentional fatigue
that all of us experience, butwhich is often exacerbated in a
clergy context, and the lack ofempirical research around the
value of retreats, led me tothen pursue a PhD and explore
(04:12):
this further.
Valerie Ling (04:14):
Okay, and how did you define what a retreat is?
Dr Chelsea Gill (04:20):
In my research I was specifically looking
within the Christian context andframework, and a retreat for my
purposes was a time thatconsisted of at least three days
away from the normal place ofresidence, so it had to be
(04:43):
offsite and a continual threedays or more.
That was purposely designed forclergy and the retreats.
There's a breadth of types ofretreats, so predominantly it
was a minimum of three days awayfrom your traditional space, to
(05:04):
put it bluntly.
Valerie Ling (05:06):
Okay.
Dr Chelsea Gill (05:08):
But within the retreats there were educational
retreats or restorative retreats.
That was how I classified thedifferent retreats, so some
denominations.
Within Australia would they alluse the term retreats in
general, but for my purposes Ithen classified educational
(05:30):
retreats as retreats where therewas a more structured program
and there were input sessions.
So there were some teachingsessions or some topics that
would be presented by a speakerand then potentially discussed,
as opposed to reflectiveretreats, which were much more
(05:53):
unstructured.
There was less of a program.
Within the reflective retreats,though, some were completely
silent and no speaking wasallowed.
Other retreats I classified asnon-silent reflective retreats
and those retreats had to haveat least three hours of silence
per day in order to be classedas a reflective retreat.
Valerie Ling (06:18):
Okay, so I'm looking at your infographic here
, which we will link with thepodcast, and so we've got.
You've got, on the one hand,all of the stresses that have
been well documented forministry, and then you've got
interestingly, you've gotprolonged mental effort and
mental fatigue that goes todiminished cognitive capacity.
(06:40):
That's is that like the jobs,demands, resources, type of
pathway, or it's a little bitdifferent.
It's got to do with attention,maybe.
Dr Chelsea Gill (06:50):
Attention restoration theory was my
underpinning framework, and soit posits that we are all using
our attentional capacities dailyand our attentional capacities
are of a finite resource.
They shrink Because we areconstantly focusing attention.
(07:11):
It's almost an endangeredresource because, whether it's
at work or at home, we areconstantly being forced to focus
our attention.
So attention restoration theoryit claims that mental fatigue
is actually caused by ourattentional capacity being
drained.
(07:31):
So it's a cognitive theory.
It comes from environmentalpsychology and although previous
research has looked at wellbeing strategies or emotional
strategies for clergy, there wasnothing in the cognitive space.
So this is trying to understandwell, how does our attentional
capacities work and what can wedo to restore them, according to
(07:55):
the framework which Rachel andStephen Kaplan coined in about
the late 1980s.
So there's been a lot ofempirical research over the last
three decades that havevalidated this across numerous
contexts.
But they suggest that attentioncan be subdivided into two
parts.
We have involuntary attentionand we have directed attention.
(08:17):
So involuntary attention iswhere we are just effortlessly
fascinated by something you know.
When you walk down the beach oryou walk outside and you see a
beautiful tree or a bird, yourmind is just drawn to the beauty
and it's so easy for you tofocus attention on that.
It's a positive thing.
(08:37):
Contrast that with voluntary ordirected attention.
That's what we do when we're atwork and not enjoying a task or
where we're having to do things.
And the more we use directedattention, the more fatigued we
become.
If we can engage theinvoluntary attentional
capacities more often, thetheory argues that we will have
(09:00):
improved cognitive capacityrather than diminished cognitive
capacity.
So by spending time in arestorative environment,
hopefully we start to feel muchbetter.
And according to the theory,there's different
characteristics of a restorativeenvironment and there's
different benefits ofrestorative environments.
(09:20):
So that was the framework thatthen shaped my research.
Valerie Ling (09:26):
Do you think that clergy have more attentional
demands, or is it a leadershipthing?
Or right now in society, whatdo you think?
Dr Chelsea Gill (09:34):
I think it's a society-wide phenomenon that's
going on, but with the clergy,the unique aspect here is the
interface between thosework-related stressors and the
boundary-related stressorsrelating to the homework
interface, which is verydifficult to separate.
They can't just go home andswitch off, like many people can
(09:55):
from the workplace, because ofthe nature of the 24-7 demands
that when a crisis happens withsomeone in your parish you can't
say, oh sorry, I'm not workingtonight, it's my day off.
If there's been a tragedy, yourespond.
So I think the constant demandson clergy attention really
exacerbate this issue.
Valerie Ling (10:18):
So from.
I'm thinking sort of inmultiple spaces now.
Firstly, thinking about howvery sure our attentions are all
being impacted.
Thinking around environmentgrabs our attention.
Any business marketing programI've attended has told me that
the new currency is not time,it's attention.
(10:39):
Whoever can grab someone'sattention, you try to hold them
and then all the algorithms getthat.
I think people are used tosound bites as well.
People get impatient, so theywant you to move on, and so
you're getting smaller andsmaller windows really to
recharge and recover.
(10:59):
So that's probably likesocietal thing, which means that
at a leadership level let's saynot clergy, but just at a
leadership level that mentaltaxing.
I was noticing it even formyself that there's not a lot of
simple things I can do anymore.
Everything needs my attention,Absolutely so deep and focused,
(11:22):
and I have to do it quickly,quickly, quickly, quickly,
quickly.
So what I'm hearing you say isthe additional loading for
people in ministry is theboundaries are blurred as well.
You don't have a clear switchoff or a clock off.
Dr Chelsea Gill (11:35):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (11:38):
And that whole thing of the impact of family.
That's like your attention justkeeps going, doesn't it?
Because even if you're at home,away from church, you're still
very aware of holding everythingthat's happening.
Dr Chelsea Gill (11:52):
And some clergy live on site next to the church
, so physically they're notactually very far away from the
church building.
Valerie Ling (12:00):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (12:01):
And with technology social media it's
just so constant the demands onour attention.
That's why it's an endangeredresource if we want to use
strong language.
Valerie Ling (12:10):
Yeah Well, I've got a bit of an interesting
story.
When we were living in a man's,I hadn't realized that I was
doing all this vigilance aboutthe house, because, no matter
how thick skinned I am that'sapparently subconsciously I'm
still thinking if anybody wouldhave drove past the house and
saw this, you know.
And then we moved back into ourown home and I was noticing how
(12:33):
I was doing all these habitualthings and then I stopped to
think why am I doing this?
For example, the weed, thesmall, tiny little speck of a
weed that was growing out of thedriveway, you know, the cement
grout, like that thing.
I was like picking them all out.
I said wait a minute, why am Idoing this?
Like this can wait.
(12:54):
And I realized oh, becausesubconsciously, without even
realizing it, it was just partof my routine, because I didn't
want to you know, for whateverreasons drive by and look at the
front and go oh my gosh, yes,what?
When you say endangeredresource, what do you mean by
(13:16):
that?
Dr Chelsea Gill (13:18):
I think it's something that requires us to
acknowledge the fragility of ourattentional capacity in order
to ensure that we can takecertain actions to guarantee we
have restored cognitive capacity.
(13:38):
It's unrealistic to assume that24 seven we're going to be
feeling cognitively fabulous,but to be aware that if we don't
nurture and take care of ourattentional resources, that can
then lead us down a difficultpath and mental fatigue.
The flow on effects of that canbe drastic, as you know, with
(14:00):
burnout and those types ofthings.
So I'm suggesting that we needto be a little bit more
proactive and preventativebefore it gets too late and
takes a lot longer to then bringthat restorative functioning
back.
Valerie Ling (14:17):
Yeah, and so this is where your research into the
retreats come in, and I'm justlooking here.
You were saying that there wasa difference, isn't it, between
attending an education basedretreat and a more reflective
retreat.
Would that be right?
So, what's in an educationalretreat Is that where you're
(14:39):
turning out for workshops andseminars, and those types of
things.
Dr Chelsea Gill (14:43):
Yes, and that may look different depending on
the domination, depending on theyear, etc.
But at the end of the daythere's several sessions a day,
probably at least two.
Valerie Ling (14:53):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (14:54):
And for some denominations that might
actually be quite a spacious andrelaxing retreat.
But there's still two inputsessions at least a day and
mentally that while it could beintentionally trying to give
some professional developmentopportunities, it is still
taxing mentally.
Valerie Ling (15:16):
Yeah, so you're still getting cognitive input.
Okay, and so what have youactually found?
What seemed to be the type ofretreat that was most beneficial
?
Dr Chelsea Gill (15:30):
So, first off, all retreats that I looked at,
across several denominations, interms of a relaxed mental state
and whether people felt bettermentally after the retreat, all
of the retreats led to apositive increase in that
measurement.
However, it was the reflectiveretreats that gave a larger
(15:54):
benefit as opposed toeducational retreats and within
the reflective retreats, silentretreats offered more
restorative benefits on siteduring the actual experience,
but after the retreat,consistently with all the other
types of retreats, the benefitssubside fairly quickly.
(16:17):
So I looked at a two-weekfollow-up and, regardless of the
retreat type, there had been adecline in the relaxed mental
state, and that's understandable.
Once you're back at workthere's all of the usual
stressors.
You have to catch up oneverything.
So the retreats were beneficial.
The silent retreats were themost beneficial on site.
Valerie Ling (16:43):
How do you define a silent retreat?
Absolutely no talkingwhatsoever, correct?
I think I would retreat fromthat retreat.
Dr Chelsea Gill (16:50):
Some people love it, some people hate it.
But interestingly, even in acompletely silent retreat, one
of the benefits thatparticipants shared with me was
the social benefits, and thatseems quite unusual, in a bit of
a paradox, because they're nottalking to anyone, but they felt
a sense of companionship, ofsolidarity, that these other
(17:14):
people who are with me insilence, they understand, they
empathize, they know what I'mgoing through.
We're on this journey together,so I found that fascinating
that, despite not speaking, theystill felt socially connected
and that was a real positive,because often clergy feel quite
isolated and they need to becareful who they entrust
(17:34):
themselves to when they'restruggling with things.
Yeah, that was unexpected, froman unexpected finding.
Valerie Ling (17:42):
I think there's some suggestion that there's a
probably a higher number ofpeople who identify with
introversion, who select to gointo.
The ministry is a fairlyreflective, somewhat scholarly
pathway as well.
So I wonder if it is havingtime to actually introspect.
Not have everybody's voices,just able to be alone with yours
(18:05):
and in the companionship ofother like minded individuals
probably was quite restful.
So I'm wondering whathypothesis you might have had as
to why they had different likeokay, I can, I think.
I think I get why any retreatis better than nothing the
environment, you're probablygoing to eat better, you're
(18:28):
resting a little bit more, butyou know what's happening in
these reflective retreats thathad improvement not only on site
but even after.
Dr Chelsea Gill (18:41):
I was trying to investigate that a bit further
by looking at the, theenvironment, the activities and
different experiences that theparticipants had, which would
lead to either immediaterestorative outcomes or longer
term restorative outcomes, in mycase measured only at a two
(19:01):
week follow up.
Yeah when it came to immediaterestorative outcomes, being in
an environment which wasfascinating, which captivated
their attention effortlessly.
So the retreat centre mighthave been in the forest as
opposed to a city motel, seem tobe positive.
(19:23):
Participating in activities,like some reflective quiet times
, some spiritual worshipactivities or relaxation
activities, certainly promotedrestorative, immediate outcomes.
When it came to enduringrestorative outcomes, though,
social activities whether thatwas spoken or not, it that was
(19:45):
valued and helped peoplemaintain those benefits for
longer, perhaps because theycould reach out to those
colleagues who perhaps they hadbonded with Injuring.
Restorative outcomes werepromoted by some sort of
professional developmentactivity.
That happened on retreat, whichmay or may not have been
completely structured.
They still may have engaged insome personal growth through
(20:07):
their spiritual reflections.
That were done privately, forexample, but across all retreat
types, certainly the fact thatthey were mentally away from
their normal environment, thatthey participated in activities
and that they did not engagewith technology.
Valerie Ling (20:25):
Right.
Dr Chelsea Gill (20:25):
That was a big plus.
A few participants did, almostwith a sense of guilt, admit to
me that they were checking theirphones and their emails because
they were dealing with crises.
One one person shared with methat there was a couple of
funerals that had to beorganised, or the need for them
arose while they were on retreatand they did not feel
(20:49):
comfortable, or that it wasappropriate to ignore that need.
Valerie Ling (20:55):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back to it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going, yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (21:19):
So it's a tart.
I mean, in this day and age, toto not check emails or your
phone for three days.
Some people feel completelyvulnerable and naked not doing
that, but there are benefitswhen we are able to do that.
Valerie Ling (21:34):
Yeah.
So if I want to go back to yourlist, I think the environment
that.
I think that's really verytelling because I think even in
a post, like through thepandemic with you know, people
working from home and thingslike that are not stepping out.
Nature has always been found tobe restorative.
I think it uses a differentpart of our brain.
It's a more sensory orientated,a more grounded experience.
(21:58):
So that makes sense to me.
Engaging in the relaxationactivities makes sense to me as
well, because people in ministryoften have traumatic stress
that they hold in their body.
The body's all hunched up and,all you know, ready to fight,
fight or freeze.
That makes, I think, the socialis interesting.
So we had another podcastepisode with Megan, who's with
(22:22):
the Baptist church, and you knowwe were talking about
loneliness and you know thatwhen you actually have
camaraderie, a sense of we'redoing it together, you don't
have to be talking shop, youdon't have to be talking about
any deeper meaningful things,but just a sense that, oh, we're
doing, we're at it together,we're friends.
That makes sense to me.
Dr Chelsea Gill (22:44):
And the relationships clergy have within
their church pastoralrelationships compared to
friendships.
That's another dynamic that'squite different from other
professions.
Valerie Ling (22:57):
Yeah, and it's still.
It has a heavy attention on.
It never switches off, becauseI can discharge a client after
15, 20 sessions or I can go home, but you never do that with
your ministry, with your parish.
They're always on your mind andon your heart, right?
The no-tech thing makes senseto me as well.
I think we.
So long as you're connectedonline, you just have an
(23:21):
awareness that things are goingon and then a sense that you've
got to check in.
So the spiritual reflections ofthat.
If we look at some of thethings that I was finding, and
others have found as well thatwhile clergy may have a
reflective posture, what theyreflect on seems to make the
(23:42):
difference, you know, because itcan be the difference between
rumination and worry or actuallyrestoring a sense of wellbeing.
So I think that's interesting.
Dr Chelsea Gill (23:55):
And the attention restoration theory,
the underpinning framework I'veused.
The four steps of therestorative process that emerge
from spending time in a naturalenvironment, a restorative
environment, are fairlystraightforward and they make
sense.
Valerie Ling (24:14):
Hey.
So at this point in the podcastI've had to edit and add
something in because I gotcarried away and didn't actually
let Chelsea, I think, finishwhat her four steps to
restorative process is during aretreat.
So here it is.
Number one clearing the mind,and she's got an example here
(24:35):
from a participant that says ittakes a while just to calm down.
You're rushing for all thistime and then all of a sudden
you stop.
You've got to get rid of allthat access, adrenaline and just
breathe, and that takes atleast 24 hours.
Number two recovery of directedattention, and the example is
(24:59):
there's a strong sense ofreality, without static not the
noise going on and the pace thatI'm going at slows down and a
certain clarity of where I'vecome from and where I'm going,
but there's a sense that I'mable to move forward easier
because I've left the pastbehind.
Then there's a step three,reflecting on immediate problems
(25:21):
and the example, because it wasa different situation to the
normal environment I'm in.
I didn't need to reflect on thethings of business, I could
reflect on the things of God andit took primary place.
And step number four,reflecting on priorities and the
future and the example it'sreally about coming back to base
(25:44):
all the time.
I see a retreat as being achance to get resented and to
look at strategies for whenyou're back, to keep that more
in place where it's fallen awayover the past 12 months for this
or that reason.
And one of the comments from aretreat participant was I don't
(26:04):
know why it's called retreat,why it's not called advance,
because it's a moving forward.
So do check out the downloadsin the description of the
podcast and you will actually beable to get Chelsea's full
infographic and how to do aretreat based on her research.
Now back to the podcast.
Dr Chelsea Gill (26:29):
But the first thing is the mind is cleared of
cognitive clutter, of the noise.
It's just you're breathingdeeply, you're taken by the
beauty around you andautomatically things just go
away from your, the front ofyour mind.
That thing gives you thecapacity to recover the ability
to direct attention once again,but you've got a bit more
(26:51):
control over it because you'refeeling a bit more refreshed.
So you can choose to focusattention on the most pressing
demands or problems that you'refacing.
But you've got a clearerviewpoint because the noise has
been shifted and that theneventually enables someone to
reflect more deeply on thefuture and be more proactive in
(27:14):
setting their priorities andrealigning if they feel that
they've been taken off courseslightly because of needs or
demands.
So it's quite a natural thing.
Your mind is cleared.
You then can refocus attentionon the things that are important
and then that lets you focusmore longer term again.
Valerie Ling (27:32):
Yeah.
So I have a practice of goingfor a retreat every quarter.
It's usually a three days, twonights type of thing.
So I'm going to go through yourrecommendations and see how my
retreat practice, whether I'vegiven myself a restorative, have
a retreat venue situated in ascenic, quiet, natural setting.
I really, truly believe thatthat makes a difference.
(27:54):
The times when I'm doing thehotel stays are not as restful
for me as I've been in nature,and so I usually say do I want
mountain or beach, like, whichis the one I want but definitely
, prior to the retreat, reflecton what they're expecting from
the experience.
So for me, every quarter is awellbeing check-in, a check-in
(28:17):
with how I'm doing spiritually,emotionally, and really just
spend some time figuring out,sort of congratulating myself
for anything that I'm feelingtanked up on, but being aware of
what are some of my needs.
Dr Chelsea Gill (28:32):
Mm.
That point around thecompatibility.
That comes out of thetheoretical framework again and
the reasoning behind it is thatif someone can have an
appropriate expectation andanticipate what they're likely
to experience, it solidifies ina positive way the outcome.
(28:53):
So if someone comes into aretreat, they're expecting it to
be horrible.
They don't want to be there.
That's going to have an impacton how they're feeling and then
affect the longer-term benefits.
Valerie Ling (29:04):
So if you Well, that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense becauseit's like it's another
attentional demand If you don'twant to be there and you're so
many things, other things you'drather do.
Whereas I find that my bodycraves, it knows that it's time
for a pit, stop it Because I'mso used to the rhythm of it.
I just find and just sleepingvery well.
(29:25):
I just that's probably one ofmy main aims catch up on sleep.
Dr Chelsea Gill (29:29):
That's great, you've got that proactive
schedule in place.
Valerie Ling (29:34):
Encourage participants to disconnect from
technology and work andresponsibilities.
Yes, so all stop for me.
Usually have a book with me.
Three hours of quiet time forrelaxation and reflection yes,
definitely, there's a tick.
Build flexibility into theprogram.
Oh, this is where, for me, it'slike I just want to say I just
say yes to the things.
(29:54):
I want to say yes to no, it'sthe things I want to say yes, so
I'm just sleeping in, Sometimeshaving a huge brunch and
enjoying fruit or going for awalk yeah it's.
I think it's just givingattention to non-responsible
doing for others and justgrounding yourself in what is
(30:14):
the purpose of why we're here.
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:18):
And at retreat.
Sometimes, or quite oftenactually, clergy would share
with me that they felt like theyhad to turn up for breakfast at
this time or attend the sessionor have this particular type of
quiet time, but they wanted theflexibility and choice.
Valerie Ling (30:34):
Yeah.
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:35):
So I've turned that into a positive for the
future.
That's what we should be doinggiving them that flexibility.
Valerie Ling (30:40):
Yeah, absolutely what do you?
What?
I don't know whether you haveany insight on this from what
you were doing, but what happensto people emotionally when
their attention is, you know,when they have this restorative
time or their reflectivereflective?
Dr Chelsea Gill (30:56):
time.
Sometimes it can beoverwhelmingly sad or unexpected
emotions may come to thesurface.
So it's not always a pleasantretreat experience and several
people shared that.
Look, it was not traumatic perse, but it wasn't comfortable.
It wasn't happy at the time, Ididn't enjoy it, but it was
necessary.
(31:16):
It was part of the process ofstripping off the yucky stuff
that had piled up and gettingback to the basics and feeling
re-centred, re-oriented, youknow, with Christ back at the
center rather than other thingsthat have perhaps distracted
them.
Valerie Ling (31:32):
Yeah, yeah, I know of some, some friends who have
been on retreats where you knowit was a time where everything
just spilled out the grief, theloss came out.
So it can also feel like a veryuncontained space if you don't
know where to go and I thinkthat's where your emotions give
(31:52):
you an indication, a signal,right and if you don't take time
to retreat and reflect, youwon't know what's been held up
there.
Hard to think of the well-beingprocesses that I think are
really important is that you dohave someone to go to, someone
to call someone to talk itthrough, someone to process that
material once it comes up, notbury it all back in again and
(32:17):
try to have a successful retreat.
Dr Chelsea Gill (32:19):
Yes, and if we're not looking after
ourselves, as clergy, lookingafter themselves, how can they
be at their best to help othersjust so constantly?
They need to take time toself-care, and it's not a bad
thing, it's not a selfish thingto do, it's a necessary thing.
Valerie Ling (32:35):
Yeah, and did you have a recommendation for the
rhythm?
How often?
Dr Chelsea Gill (32:42):
I would suggest at least annually, which is the
norm for most organisations,for most denominations.
But I think at a personal level, clergy can be proactive and
take initiative to have morefrequent restorative experiences
and that could occur on a dailybasis, a micro restorative
experience.
There's plenty of scientificliterature that talks about the
(33:06):
value of having a window withsome nice views or some greenery
or having a fresh plant in theoffice, just to you know,
captivate your attention, evenfor five or 10 seconds.
It does improve yourattentional capacity.
So, on a daily basis, beingable to go for a walk or
whatever it is that iscompatible with someone's
(33:28):
preferences, that's in nature orthat connects them with nature,
is a positive.
Also, on a weekly basis, whetherit's a formal Sabbath taking,
if you like, or if it's lessspiritual and just taking time
out to be with friends or to donothing, that's a real positive.
So I think micro restorativeexperiences on a daily, a weekly
(33:51):
, a monthly basis are goodrhythms to get into.
But then a longer term three,five, seven day annual retreat
would be a good idea if possible, if the retreat is purposely
designed and compatible withwhat the person is looking for,
that they're not feeling forced,that they're not feeling
(34:14):
uncomfortable with the format.
I think that's crucial todistinguish between that.
Having a retreat that theperson hates, that they don't
want to be there, that theystrongly disagree with, that is
not helpful.
Valerie Ling (34:26):
Now Chelsea, I'm having some memory of an email
trail.
Where did you say that you andyour hubby actually offer
retreats?
Dr Chelsea Gill (34:34):
We were a couple of years ago.
This year we haven't, but we dohope to get back into that.
It's something we're passionateabout and it was not just for
clergy, but we certainly hadseveral clergy attend.
I was starting to put theseprinciples into practice and
design those retreats, so if wemight do that again.
Valerie Ling (34:55):
If anybody is looking for a way to structure a
helpful reflective restorativeretreat, do you have any
suggestions as to where theymight go for that?
Dr Chelsea Gill (35:10):
Not off the top of my head.
I'm aware that there'sdifferent retreat centres that
operate, but again, often thatis dependent on a person's
preferences for what they mightprefer.
There's a few differentperspectives on whether a
(35:31):
self-directed retreat isbeneficial or whether a retreat
that is directed by anexperienced person who's got
some reasons behind why they'redoing it this way is a better
option.
It could be something to thinkthrough.
I think there's certainly valuein the self-directed retreats
at times, but I think there isalso value in having the
(35:51):
corporate gathering, a smallgroup 5, 10, 20 like-minded
people, clergy in this context,where there may be a retreat
facilitator who may or may notbe providing a strong format and
sessions, but there's still apurpose behind it and it's a
(36:12):
social connection as well.
I think there's value in that.
So there's two streams ofthought there.
Is it self-directed or is itled by a retreat facilitator?
Valerie Ling (36:21):
Yeah, and I suspect maybe one is related to
another.
So if you have never done thisbefore self-directed, you may
not.
You might be at a loss.
You might want to attendsomething that's led and then
have some exposure to that andfigure out what are some of the
things that really gave you therest, and then you can put
together some things foryourself.
Dr Chelsea Gill (36:43):
And to distinguish it from a holiday,
an annual holiday different toan annual retreat.
In my thoughts, yeah,absolutely so.
Valerie Ling (36:58):
if there was a minister listening in to us
today, what's one thing youwould love for them to take away
from our chat today?
Dr Chelsea Gill (37:07):
Take time to engage in restorative
experiences.
Find out what nurtures you, notjust that you feel good, but at
a cognitive level.
What helps you regain thecapacity to think more clearly,
to focus on things and to thinklonger term, not just
(37:32):
immediately reacting to thesituational demands.
That's not a healthy state tostay in.
What can you do to regain thefuller cognitive capacity to
give you that broader, longerterm perspective, which
obviously then helps you be moreaffected in the day to day
living?
Valerie Ling (37:51):
Yeah, and it's not just more caffeine.
Dr Chelsea Gill (37:55):
Certainly not.
Valerie Ling (37:58):
If there was a church that was listening to us,
because some people have gottentheir pastoral care committee
subscribed to the podcast, oreven parish council.
What might you like them toconsider for their ministry team
?
Dr Chelsea Gill (38:16):
I would love to see more research done in this
space.
So if there are church groupsor pastoral care committees,
those kinds of cohorts that areinterested in this space, I
think it would be useful toconnect, to collaborate, to
dialogue and to learn from bestpractice, rather than all of us
struggling and fumbling our waythrough and some things work,
(38:38):
some things don't.
Let's have a conversation,let's help each other, let's
draw on the research, andsometimes I worry that in church
zones we don't draw on bestpractice principles from
academic literature, managementresearch, scientific research.
I'm not saying it's alwayswonderful that we should do that
(39:00):
, but I think we need some morecross-pollination of that,
because there is plenty of highquality, grounded research that
gives us frameworks throughwhich we can interpret reality
and what's going on.
Like this research that I'vedone, for example, it was
empirically based, there wasvalidated measures that I used.
(39:25):
There was research methodologythat I embarked on so that we
could move beyond just thefeelings and our own
subjectivities and try tounderstand at a richer level
what's going on, because then wecan all learn from that and we
can all benefit and we're thericher for it.
(39:46):
So I'd love to see morecollaboration, more connections,
but more research being done inthis space.
Burnout well-being it's highlytopical in the academic world
right now for research andretreats are still the poor
cousin.
I think it will become moreprominent in coming years as we
all become more centred aboutwell-being and HR officers.
(40:07):
It's the new trend well-beingfocuses, but where's the
empirical research?
And it would be wonderful if,as a church at large, we can
engage and partner with thatspace as well.
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Yeah, I'm having these really interesting
thoughts.
I don't mean to minimise whatyou said, but I think it is
quite interesting to you know ifwe did actually take an
interest in doing some surveys,sort of pre-mid post, we might
find out some information that Isaid might also be unique to
our particular context perhaps,or a church context.
(40:43):
Feedback is always so important, I think.
Dr Chelsea Gill (40:47):
Absolutely, and I'm not sure that it's
something we usually do well ina church, because it is quite
sad.
Valerie Ling (40:55):
Why, bob Carson, I can say this yeah, I'm saying.
Very well, I don't know that weknow how to give feedback.
Dr Chelsea Gill (41:01):
Well, and let's celebrate what we do well, but
let's have proper data andproper analysis to support our
conclusions so that we areengaging our brain in that
process and not just basing itall on feeling.
Valerie Ling (41:18):
Yeah, perfect.
Thank you so much for your time, chelsea.
I've really enjoyed chattingwith you and I am looking
forward to not only airing thisepisode but also putting the
link to your information sohelpful about what to consider
when you're actually having aretreat.
So thank you so much forchatting with me.
Dr Chelsea Gill (41:36):
Thank you, Valerie, and happy to chat with
anyone who's interested inlearning more about retreats.
Thanks for your time.
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