September 20, 2023 • 49 mins
Imagine an environment where safety and well-being are prioritized, where trust and transparency are key, and conflicts are handled in a constructive manner. These are the ingredients of psychological safety. Psychological safety refers to a work environment where individuals feel comfortable taking risks, expressing their thoughts, and making mistakes without fear of punishment or humiliation. Psychosocial hazards are broader and pertain to all aspects of work design, organisational structures, and social dynamics that can lead to psychological or physical harm. This could include things like excessive workload, lack of role clarity, workplace bullying, and poor organisational culture.
They are separate and intertwined. Katharine Moore, an expert in workplace safety and health, joins me on the podcast to unwrap this very topic, based on findings from my clergy well-being and leadership survey.
From my survey, the following experiences of offensive behaviour experienced by clergy over the past 12 months were reported:
· Sexual harassment: 6%
· Threats of and actual violence: 8%
· Bullying: 31%
· Unpleasant teasing: 27%
· Conflicts and quarrels: 78%
· Gossip and slander: 53%
Clergy burnout was found to be related to the level of offensive behaviours experienced by clergy.
Through our discussion, we tackle the physical and psychological burdens of various job roles, the crucial role of job design and task rotation, and the complexities of budgets, governance, and compliance.
Katharine has built a strong reputation for her excellence in Safety and Injury Management. She believes in engaging & empowering workers to build a proactive safety culture in the workplace which will lead to greater levels of overall compliance.
She works at a Senior Leadership level in a multi-national corporate where she influences business decisions to create a workplace that is:
• Safe from physical and psychological harm
• Promotes whole-person wellbeing
• Fully accessible & inclusive
• Empowers team to meet their full potential
Our conversation delves into the heart of church conflict and consider how a lack of transparency may foster an environment ripe for bullying. By exploring the difference between psychosocial and psychological safety, we illuminate how churches can work alongside partner practices to foster a secure environment where team members feel safe providing feedback.
Download my research report and reflections
Watch the video version of this podcast
Complete a Clergy Wellbeing Quiz here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Hello everybody, welcome to ournext episode of the podcast.
I have with me Katherine Moore.
She's a personal friend, butalso someone I think can provide
(00:50):
us with some valuable insightsinto some of the dynamics that
I've picked up in my clergywell-being and leadership survey
.
Welcome to you, katherine.
Katharine Moore (01:01):
Thank you so much.
I'm very excited to be here.
Valerie Ling (01:04):
Katherine, you and I got a church together as well
.
We do.
You are very familiar withchurch and Christian community
and I'm so eager to hear yousomeone who's out in the
commercial environment, verymuch leading and working in your
organization in this space, andhow you view some of the things
(01:28):
that might have I've picked upin the survey and what's
happening in churches.
But first tell us a little bitabout you and your role.
Katharine Moore (01:38):
Yeah, great, I started in safety about 15 years
ago and I think over time it'skind of morphed a little bit
from pure safety into health andwell-being and now, definitely
with the changes in legislationand changes in focus on how we
manage psychosocial risk in theworkplace, that's really become
a fundamental part of the roleand really important for how we
(02:01):
shape how business responds andnot just responds but identifies
and prevents these types ofthings in the workplace.
So yeah, I'm very lucky Icurrently work for a global
organization.
Within my remit I've got about900 employees that I'm directly
responsible for.
But, then I also get to impactglobally, so very lucky that
(02:22):
Australia is actually leadingthe way here.
So a lot of my counterpartslook to what we're doing here in
Australia and I get to helpinfluence that at a high level
as well, which is really cool.
Valerie Ling (02:34):
And your role has also been very interesting given
the last few years.
How have you seen that impactthe leadership tiers in your
business?
Katharine Moore (02:46):
Yeah, I think it's a real challenge for
leadership.
I think that a lot of peoplestill have the I think, the back
history of victimization thatstill comes up now right and
leaders are very concerned aboutif we go too far here, if we
open up, we'll have people in avictim mentality and we won't be
(03:08):
able to bring them back out ofthat.
So it's really about trying tocreate a very constructive
environment where we can sitdown and say what's really
happening in the workplace, whatare the real challenges and how
do we empower people to, Iguess, overcome those challenges
.
So it's not about saying workis too hard.
We need to put more people in.
(03:29):
It's about what are thechallenges in your role and how
do we redesign your role in away that you're empowered and
you can get done what needs tobe done.
Valerie Ling (03:40):
But our organization, which is not 900
employees.
We started to create ourworkplace wellbeing survey and I
have to say, Catherine, thateven when I got the first draft,
as the leader of my business, Ifelt uncomfortable.
Do you think that that's ahuman reaction, that you know
(04:03):
anything that's going toinvestigate how things really
are, that there's a humanreaction that goes with that?
Katharine Moore (04:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a most short topic towrite, and especially for
leaders, and particularly if youown your business.
Right, you've tried to createthis really amazing workplace
where people feel safe and wereflect that to psychological
safety, right?
Sometimes you know people think, oh, if they're putting up red
flags around, psychosocial, itmeans I haven't got these great
(04:31):
workplaces, I don't havepsychological safety.
I'd actually challenge that,say that's not true.
If they're able to speak up andsay I've got challenges, then
that means you do have apsychologically safe workplace
because they feel safe to speakup.
So now it's about working inpartnership with your work is to
say what can we do better, whatcan we do a little bit
different, or what can weimprove.
Valerie Ling (04:52):
Brilliant.
Let's start with definitions,shall we?
Yeah, so let's start.
You were saying to me thatthere's a broader category, if
you like, to what you do, solet's start with there.
So it's psychosocial safety isone part of it.
What is the broader picturewe're looking at?
Katharine Moore (05:13):
You've got two components here.
So within HR traditional HR welook at things like job design,
role load, relationship,conflict, bullying, harassment,
things like that, even roleclarity.
These types of things aretraditionally in HR and they
generally dealt with in areactive notion.
(05:34):
So if we set things up, wethink they're good, and then
people put their hand up and letus know if that's gone wrong
and we HR go and investigateAnyone who's been in that kind
of environment before.
Maybe there's been a bullyingcomplaint, that type of thing.
It's not a fun thing to gothrough, right, because we don't
assume the complainer is right.
We just hear there's somethingand we go and investigate I mean
(05:56):
investigate that person as muchas we investigate the person
that they're claiming or lead.
So it can be quite an emotionalchallenge.
It can be quite overwhelmingfor the person that's been
involved.
So then we go into the state.
So we've got this riskmanagement framework which looks
at going with a real unbiasedview and looking at the
(06:21):
workplace and identifying whathad this exist, what controls we
currently have in place toprevent them, and then what we
can do better.
And prevention is the key inthis aspect.
So really about can weeliminate this from ever
happening again, or can wecontrol it in some way that it
doesn't cause harm?
So what we're doing now iswe're merging these two worlds
(06:44):
together and we're saying HRhave all the skills and
experience in this world, butsafety has the framework for how
we can prevent it.
So we're starting to worktogether in partnership, which
is fun.
I think in some businessesthey're going to find it quite
successful.
Others may find it morechallenging, as they bring these
two worlds together and find anew way of looking at it.
Valerie Ling (07:05):
So let's look at the world of church leadership.
When you think about it as alayperson in church and then
with your professional roles andresponsibilities, what do you
think safety physical, emotional, psychological safety looks
like for someone who's leading achurch?
Katharine Moore (07:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting If we go back
to the psych and social, wekind of sweat it into two areas
Job demands.
Some of the job demands mightlook at role overload, emotional
demands, relationship conflicts, role ambiguity these things
are ripe in a church, right,Like that finds things every day
(07:48):
.
And on the other side we've gotjob resources.
So how much job control, tradesand recognition, supervisor
support, co-worker support,change consultation?
Maybe we're not so great atthat in church, right.
So you've got things, clergywho are sitting here who want to
lead their church and they'vegot all the challenges under the
job demands, but maybe they'relacking some of the support that
(08:11):
they need in the job resources.
And I think there's a fewfactors to that.
Like just observing as alayperson, I think there's a lot
of misconceptions around whatis the workload of a clergy
person.
It's really easy to say, oh,they just work on Sundays, right
, they just do one sermon, maybetwo summums a week, that's it.
(08:32):
So then there's that kind of Iguess not direct challenging of
it, but just sort of oh, arethey really under that much
pressure, Is it really that hard?
And there's a lack oftransparency.
A clergy person can't standwhat's going on.
There's a lot of privacy, a lotof confidentiality with how
they support their congregation.
(08:53):
So there's a lot of lack oftransparency, lack of ability to
reach out and ask for supportfor themselves.
But I think the biggest thingthat I see is probably a lack of
training.
They go through some level ofleadership training I know
you've looked at that and lookedat the different types of
leadership and particularlyservant leadership and where
(09:16):
that leads.
But do they get training insafety?
Do they get training inpsychosocial hazards?
Do they understand thewell-being and even self-care
tips?
I think that's probably anopportunity that we could bring
in to support them.
Valerie Ling (09:32):
So everything that you said just there, we're
going to need to put it on somekind of workplace safety poster.
There are probably aspects ofclergy well-being that have been
researched almost in isolation,catherine.
So I'll give you an example andI'm curious to see what you
think the jobs demands, jobs,resources, role and bevelance
(09:55):
very commonly has been studiedwithin and rightfully so within
the burnout space.
Now, one of the things I wastrying to investigate was to
what extent does leadershipburnout then lead to other kinds
of what I call destructiveleadership practices, or really,
in my framework, it was moreit's inappropriate, it's
(10:15):
forceful and it's unhealthy,unhelpful leadership.
How does that fit within apsychosocial or a safety model?
Katharine Moore (10:24):
Yeah, well, that would be a red flag really
for how they're going to impactthe rest of their team.
That type of behaviourdefinitely is just going to
increase the emotional demandsand the overall overload of the
rest of their team.
So what we'd look at and I'veworked in other businesses that
employ what they callconstructive leadership, which
(10:47):
really puts those sort ofdestructive behaviours aside and
really aims for how you work inpartnership and how you have
that more open, healthy sort ofleadership style, and that's
what you're aiming for if you'regoing to prevent psychosocial
Okay.
Having said that, I also thinkit's probably a red flag to say
that person is suffering fromsome psychosocial risks.
Valerie Ling (11:07):
Yeah, can you say a bit more about that?
Katharine Moore (11:10):
Yeah, I think we start to see symptoms from
people.
So when they're under distress,when they're under high levels
of pressure, some of thosesymptoms come out to either be
psychological or physical.
So you may start to see things.
Physical might be stomach achesand headaches and things like
that muscle pain, but thepsychological might start to be
those early signs of depressionor anxiety.
(11:33):
So you might start to see alittle bit of aggression, a
little bit of anger, a littlebit of snapping, because they're
just not coping very well underthe stress that they've
currently got.
Valerie Ling (11:41):
Okay, let's go through in this time that we
have, let's see what we can getout of your expertise, job
demands, job design what are thekey components in that, really?
Katharine Moore (11:56):
Oh, this is a tough one, right, because it's
individual.
So a piece of work I'm doing atthe moment is actually
combining psychologists and aphysical therapist to come in
and assess each job.
So doing the job task analysisto understand what's the
physical requirements of thetask that's pretty traditional.
Most businesses are pretty goodat doing that but bringing in
(12:19):
the psychological element aswell to say what are the actual
demands on it.
So in this space I'm definitelya lay person.
I definitely bring inspecialists that help me with
this to identify, you know,what's the level of
concentration required, what'sthe level of interaction with
other people.
Those types of things have tobe known.
It has to be part of your jobtask analysis so that you can
(12:42):
identify well what's thereasonable exposure to that in a
shift, what kind of breaks youwant to bring into that.
You like manual handling.
We know that for really heavymanual handling you want to have
breaks in there and that mightnot be a go have coffee break.
It may be task rotation and Ithink we need to start thinking
the same.
(13:02):
Well, from those psychologicalpressures and saying how do we
rotate that task a little bitand are?
You're very good at this?
I've seen little hints of that.
How you manage your diary andhow you look at you know what
types of pressure you have in aparticular activity and how you
break your day up, and I thinkthat's what we need to start
doing.
When we think about job design,it's not just the physical
(13:22):
aspects.
Valerie Ling (13:24):
I think it makes a really interesting points.
Do you think and I don't knowwhether you, I know you've been
doing some postgraduate studiesso maybe you have looked into
this but do you think thepsychological and physical like
just looking at those twocomponents, psychological and
economics and physical demandsof roles have really shifted
(13:44):
over the decades?
That have been significantchanges?
Do you think?
Katharine Moore (13:49):
Absolutely, I think, particularly as we start
to bring robotics and AI andthings in, we start to remove
all the really base level jobsfrom the person's task and we
leave them with the more complextasks that have to be done by
humans, and I think that justincreases their exposure to
those more complex activitiesthat require more focus, more
(14:10):
concentration, more problemsolving and it gives them left
downtime when they're doing thereally simple, mediocre kind of
jobs.
Valerie Ling (14:19):
So one of the common things I hear when we
discuss the well-being ofpastors is that, oh, but you
know, isn't that just part ofthe terrain?
You know pastors are meant todeal with pastoral issues.
There will always be conflictin the church and one of the
things that I've observed when Italk to pastors is a lot of
(14:42):
their role has got to do withcomplex budgets, complicated
governance and compliance issues.
You know the pastoral concerns.
There's a lot of legislationaround what you have to do
mandatory reporting, gettingyourself, you know, safe to be
around children, those sorts ofthings.
If you look at that in terms ofjob demands, do you think that
(15:08):
those are considered demands orthey just like oh, you know,
that's pretty normal, ordinary.
Everybody should be able tojust sail through them.
Katharine Moore (15:19):
I think it's a little bit of both.
I think they are complex,immense they are, and I think
it's become ordinary.
So we've we've changed ourperception on what we think is
normal and what we think is hard, but it doesn't change the fact
that it requires more brainpower.
It requires more concentration.
You've got less opportunity forerror as well.
I think we're moving more andmore into a world where we don't
(15:42):
have capacity to accept error.
We really expect everyone to beexcellent at what they do and
get it right first time, and Ithink that just keeps adding the
pressure.
I think the risk that we haveis that we've normalized that
and we've forgotten how hard itis, and so we have less
tolerance when people do have anerror, or they just say you
(16:04):
know what it's tough.
I need a break like I'm feelingfatigued by this From your
experience, even quantifyingfatigue.
Valerie Ling (16:13):
I mean, that's one of the things that we've been
looking at in our business,because we're well aware that
the type of fatiguepsychologists have is quite hard
to quantify.
How does one quantify fatigue,emotional fatigue even?
Katharine Moore (16:30):
I would love to know the answer to that.
I've seen things a bit like youknow, when you go to hospital
and they've got the pain scale.
I've seen fatigue scales likethat.
It's hard again because I thinkeverybody's perception is
different, everyone's experienceis different and their
tolerance level, fatigue isdifferent.
But we don't accept that as ananswer.
We really think that everybodyis the same as us.
(16:53):
I think that's the challenge forleaders, for leaders often they
have a very high tolerance forbeing able to manage those
complex tasks, for being able tomanage fatigue, and they get to
a position where they look atthe rest of their team and they
don't do it with any ill intent,but from their personal
experience they look at it andsay I don't understand when
you're fatigued, I don'tunderstand why you can't handle
(17:15):
this level of tasks, becauseit's less than I'm handling and
I'm fine, so why aren't you?
But I think we need to move toa point where it's okay to have,
you know, a fatigue scale,where people say, for me
personally, that's where I'msitting and this is what I need,
to get back up the chain alittle bit.
Valerie Ling (17:34):
So job design really needs to break down.
You need to study what a personis doing during a day, during a
week, and breaking it down intothese various very specific
components and I've heard whatyou said.
There's elements of complexity,tolerance for error, task
rotation, task duration.
(17:55):
I don't know of any ministrycontext that has dealt quite
into that detail?
Katharine Moore (18:04):
Yeah, I don't think I do and I think my
understanding of it andobviously I haven't worked in it
, but from what I observed it'sa very reactive role, right?
You don't always get to planout your week, you don't always
get to plan out your day.
It's about what to end up onthe desk and so you know,
planning those opportunities fortask rotation, planning those
(18:25):
opportunities for breaks,becomes more of a challenge.
Valerie Ling (18:28):
So perhaps what I'm listening and reflecting on
is that we as leaders can becomea psychosocial or a safety risk
to our team, not just forourselves, when those factors
are there and we don't even knowhow to identify them.
Katharine Moore (18:42):
Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
I think the more pressure we'reon as a leader and the more
we're struggling, the moreimpact we're going to have on
the people around us.
Yeah, we have less ability toself reflect and put controls in
place to protect others.
Valerie Ling (18:58):
I'd love to just pick up on what you said self
reflect.
Is that something that in yourbusiness you have a way of
training or structuring orinvestigating in your leadership
tier, or is it assumed thateverybody will know how to do
that?
It's?
Katharine Moore (19:14):
assumed.
I did work for a business I hadmentioned before about that
constructive leadership and thatwas really around 360 degrees
and lots of coaching and lots ofopportunities to self reflect
and to hear feedback around theimpact that you're having on
others, because we often go outwith intent and we view the
world from our perspective ofintent, but once we get that
(19:38):
feedback of the impact weactually had it, it helps us
then to self reflect and say,well, I went out with this
intent, but this is how itlanded.
How do I change that?
What do I need to dodifferently While I'm currently
up?
We don't have to in place atthe moment, but it's definitely
something I want to work towards.
Valerie Ling (19:56):
Catherine, how does someone get feedback on the
impact?
Katharine Moore (20:00):
Through feedback surveys.
So we were doing 360s, so thatwould be people above you,
people next to you and peoplebelow you, and it was a
validated survey, so it was verywell structured, standardized
questions that would be done ona set frequency so that you
could start to see the changethat you would have 360s have
(20:22):
challenges.
Valerie Ling (20:23):
Isn't it about trust?
Definitely yeah.
Katharine Moore (20:29):
It definitely doesn't work unless you've got
the trust.
Valerie Ling (20:32):
It's only one of the challenges in a business of
my size, for example, becauseyou can 100% identify who gave
you the feedback because you'vegot such a small team.
Would you say that that is anissue?
I think.
Katharine Moore (20:45):
It is and it goes back to psychological
safety.
So remember that they aredifferent and it's really
important that we see thedifference.
You may have psychosocial handsthat are not well-controlled in
your workplace, but if you havea psychologically safe
workplace where everyone feelscomfortable to speak up and talk
about what the challenges are,it's going to really help your
journey.
It's going to help you get thattrue feedback and move forward.
Valerie Ling (21:08):
Yeah, I'll just put it out there.
It's something that I've beenreally trying to work on in our
business, because psychologistshave very similar issues.
The trust and confidentiality,because your peers can actually
report you, you know ifsomething, and it's the same
with ministers.
The conduct the complaints cango through.
One of the things I'm workingon is actually two things
(21:30):
fostering a relationship with apartner practice.
They can get our feedback andwe can get their feedback and do
averages of analysis and beable to support one another that
way so that our team feels safeto see what they need to say,
and it's an aligned partnershipwith another business that can
(21:51):
help us.
But for now, what we've actuallydone is we've actually hired an
outsourced third party tocollect all of our surveys and
our information so that 100%nobody is identifiable when they
give the feedback.
Katharine Moore (22:08):
Yeah, that's how we did the constructive
leadership that was the partyoutsourced and all very well
documented.
So you knew who did the survey,because you'd select your 10
people but you didn't know whowas paying for it.
Valerie Ling (22:22):
Yeah, okay.
Now, one thing that churcheshave different to businesses is
that they're pretty much full ofvolunteers.
Yeah, so I just want to.
I'm curious to hear the levelsof conflict that have been
reported by the survey.
In the survey, I mean, wealways say our eyes here, our
(22:45):
church is full of we're notperfect people.
Of course there's going to beconflict, but you know these
were the same questions thatwere asked of Australian school
principals.
So you're getting peopleendorsing physical sexual
harassment, teasing, bullying,constant conflict and quarrels,
(23:09):
gossip and slander.
I mean, what is your view as aprofessional in this space when
you hear about that level ofconflict?
Katharine Moore (23:20):
Look honestly, I think it comes down to lack of
transparency.
I think that if it was moreopen and it was more known.
So I'll pick a differentindustry for a minute.
If we look at retail, whatwe've done in the retail space
is really vocalise and reallystart to share data around the
level of conflict that customersare showing towards retail
(23:43):
workers, and we're making itpublic and we're putting it out
there to say, as a community, asa society, we don't accept this
kind of behaviour.
It's not okay, and by doing thatit means that now other
customers are feeling braver toconfront inappropriate customer
behaviours.
(24:03):
They don't speak to that word.
To that way we're making itreally public and really really
loud and say that this is notwhat we stand for.
I think in the church there'sprobably an apprehension about
doing that, because we need tocreate an image of Christians
and what our values are and whatour standards are, and we don't
really want to publicly saybehind the doors that things are
(24:26):
going that well, that we're notnecessarily leaving the values
that we profess and that wevalue and that we believe in.
But I think also the media takesquite a lot of joy in
highlighting when Christians andchurches don't follow the
values that they stand by, andso I think there's probably some
nervousness about beingtransparent about some of those
(24:49):
behaviours.
And the risk with that is thatif bullies can bully behind
closed doors, they'll keep doingit.
You need to take those wallsdown and open those doors up.
show the bullies the light sothat others can stand up and say
we don't allow that kind ofbehaviour, and I think that's
always going to be the challengefor the churches, you know
(25:09):
making sure that we do stand forthe right values and that we
are known for that in thecommunity and that we're not
getting taken advantage of bythe media, but at the same time
we don't want to close off andhide what's happening behind
closed doors.
Valerie Ling (25:25):
One of the challenges I suspect in churches
is that it does happen unseen.
It's through the emails, it'sthrough the Facebook and the SMS
texts.
There are no formal channels tocommunicate this sort of thing.
I find that really interestingin that I used to say it's death
(25:48):
by a thousand paper cuts.
I think what people forget isthat there's very often one
pastor or even, let's say, threeto five pastors.
When you have three to fivepastors, your congregation is
usually at the size of maybethree, four hundred and upwards,
because there are no two-wayconversations in these sorts of
(26:09):
setups, like in my team, it's atwo-way conversation.
There's one of me and there's20 on the team, but there's
always two-way conversations.
I know your role.
I know my role.
If we're kind of stepping onone another's toes, let's have a
conversation and let's reviewthat role.
Now, with pastors, you've gothundreds of people sending them
(26:29):
emails, messages, discontent.
It's often not really a two-wayconversation.
I have a problem with you.
This is the problem.
I expect that you will fix it.
It's your job as the pastor ofthis church to fix it.
Katharine Moore (26:46):
I think that goes straight back to role
clarity.
Not only does the minister needto know what the clarity of
their role is, but thecongregation needs to know what
the clarity is as well.
They need to know what is theirresponsible for and what are
they not responsible for.
Because I think you're right, Ithink people have their own
perception, their own idea ofwhat is under their control.
Valerie Ling (27:09):
Do you think it's enough to go on a courtesy, care
and love campaign?
That's what Singapore did.
Oh, they had a little lion, Ithink he was like the ambassador
, I think, for courtesy.
The little cartoon will come onTV and remind you what the
values were and what thebehaviors are.
(27:30):
Have a little lion and interactwith the public.
Is that what we're looking at?
Is it some kind of a campaignfor church congregants?
Katharine Moore (27:40):
I think we could do that for the whole
community.
I think the whole community hasbecome quite vocal, quite brave
in speaking out on social mediaand via emails.
We have a different world now.
How many of these people wouldsay those things face to face
with a person?
I just don't think they would.
I don't think they would takethe time and I don't think they
(28:00):
would be brave enough to do it,whereas they've created this
space at home and I think theycould just jump on their
keyboard and send out thesemessages without any real
consequence.
I think we're creating acommunity of people who maybe
are speaking before they think.
Valerie Ling (28:15):
Let's say, in your workplace.
How do you cultivate a cultureof managing conflict well, being
respectful and knowing yourlimits when you're interacting
with someone else?
How does that happen?
Katharine Moore (28:30):
I think it is easier in the workplace.
You have stronger roles aroundrole clarity, hierarchy values,
respectful behaviour.
But I think the key successI've always seen is having those
conversations.
If I've got a problem with you,I don't go to your manager.
I don't go to my manager.
I go to you and I sit down andhave conversations.
(28:51):
This is the impact that you'rehaving on me.
You can talk about yourexperience and what the intent
was and we can have an openconversation about how that went
and what would be better nexttime.
Obviously, that type of work isescalation process, but that's
all really well formulated.
In a workplace as well, you'vegot your escalation process.
(29:12):
You've got different support,people to help coach you, have
those conversations orfacilitate those conversations.
I don't know that that existsas well in the church.
I think from the congregation'sperspective, they probably
don't have as much clarity aboutthe right ways to address their
concerns.
Valerie Ling (29:31):
Now, this was an interesting one, because most
pastors and, I think, mostcongregation, assume that the
Bible, in terms of godly conduct, tells us how we are to behave
as a church.
What do you think is missing?
Katharine Moore (29:51):
Probably it's the interpretation of it, how
people take the personalinterpretation about how it
impacts their behaviour.
I think people are very good atusing the Bible to say how you
should behave, but not so goodat looking at the Bible and
saying how I should behave.
Valerie Ling (30:09):
Let's say you and I have the opportunity.
One psychologist, oneleadership, safety, health and
wellbeing practitioner.
We have the chance and someonehired us and said look, we're
going to church plant.
We want to set up some of thestructures so that the
leadership, wellbeing andtransparency in the community
(30:32):
that's all been set up.
What would be some things thatyou would immediately say, yeah,
okay, here's what we need.
Katharine Moore (30:40):
That's a good question.
I think it would be great tosit down and online as a group
and say what are the key valueswe're going to take out of the
Bible that we want to say theseare non-negotiables, these are
the things that we want to seeevery day Because we accept that
people are in fact, right.
(31:01):
We accept that people aresinful and that they're not
going to live to the 5% of theirevery day.
But what are the key ones thatjust absolutely have to be there
?
And I think, by sitting downand talking through that and
agreeing on that and then maybeeven looking at it from, if we
refer quite to the workplace, wehave inductions, we have
orientations.
When we talk to people aboutwhat is our culture, what are
(31:23):
our values.
Do we do that in the church?
We welcome people and wewelcome them as they are, but
when do we sit down and say thisis what our church says and
this is what is really importantto us and what we want to see
living in the people in ourchurch?
Valerie Ling (31:40):
So if you had to chunk that down, do you mean
like values into behaviors?
Yeah, like as specific as thisis how we interact in the car
park.
This is how we interact in themorning tea.
Do you mean even really drilleddown to that Potentially?
Katharine Moore (31:59):
Look, I think you know, if you look at things
like car park in the morning tea, I'd probably go to that level
if there were issues there andwe had to say this is what it
should look like.
But I think look at the keythings that are problems.
So how is it we welcome newpeople?
How is it we deal with conflict?
How is it we raise concernsabout leadership in the church,
like those things that can bereally challenging, that maybe
(32:20):
people don't know exactly theright process, the right way to
raise those concerns.
Valerie Ling (32:26):
Okay, and so we'd have a look and we'd align
values, and I've often talkedabout a code of conduct within a
church.
Even so, in our business, I'veactually recraft a job designed
to include what I say, theircharacter statements, behaviors
that come from our values, thatwe all agree are important and
(32:48):
non-negotiable, and we havepermission to call one another,
including myself, out on it.
Now, you know, it's not beenvery like ingrained.
It's a work in motion.
But you know, I've seen somechanges in our team.
Instead of being afraid to saysorry I did the wrong thing,
it's just become automatic justto go oh, I'm sorry, I missed
(33:11):
the ball on that one, didn't I?
Or you know it's like, yeah,that's one of the character
virtues that we have.
Katharine Moore (33:15):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's exactly what Iwas sort of leaning towards, is
exactly that kind of format andI've seen it done very well.
So in the other businessconstructive leadership a strong
part of that is immediatefeedback.
So when you're in aconversation, if you've seen
behaviors that are not alignedto what we've agreed to, then
(33:38):
just calling that out in areally constructive way.
It doesn't have to beaggressive, it doesn't have to
be.
You know, you're bad firstthing.
You're doing the wrong thing.
It's just, hey, I kind of seeyou leaning towards this way.
Valerie Ling (33:50):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back to it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
Katharine Moore (34:13):
Let's try and go this way instead, and I find
that really effective.
Valerie Ling (34:18):
All right.
So let's go back to you and I.
You know we get this amazingopportunity to take a whole year
off to journey with a churchplanter, so that's what we do.
Is there anything else that youthink?
How about the job design aspect?
You know what you want to seein that.
Katharine Moore (34:38):
Yeah, I think the job design would be really
interesting.
Like I would love to actuallybring someone in, like a Valerie
, to actually do that job taskanalysis and really break it
down, look at what is an actualcomponent of that task and that
job and then look at is thereways I don't know, I haven't
worked in this field but isthere ways that we can start to
(34:59):
build some strategies in to helpthe clergy, to help the
leadership, to do task rotation,to take little micro breaks or
to take longer breaks at theright frequency so that they're
avoiding that burnout stage?
I think that would be reallyinteresting to actually do it
from that scientific level.
Valerie Ling (35:19):
Yeah, we once had a really interesting assignment
that was given to us.
It was such a compassionaterequest.
It was from a church who was inthe process of hiring an
individual that had certaincapacity issues.
That's just put it that way.
And at the time on staff we hada mental health occupational
therapist.
So that's exactly what theywent and did.
(35:41):
They went and investigate theergonomics.
They actually went toinvestigate the task, chunking
down and made specificrecommendations.
Some of them were reallycreative actually, but I think
what that did was it gave aconversation for the team to
understand that when this personis making an adjustment, it's
not them being precious yeah,this has actually been assessed
(36:04):
for their sustainability.
But how do you then share that,let's say, in this church
planting context?
Let's say you've now got alsovolunteers, people in the
congregation.
How do you build, how do youthink we build that connection,
that transparency, that empathy?
If you could come in and makethat happen, what would that
(36:26):
look like?
Katharine Moore (36:27):
Yeah, that's something I've been working on
recently.
So as we, I guess, move more,and more to a world where we
really want to create aworkplace that is inclusive of
all people.
Different disabilities,different capacities and
workplace adjustments becomemore and more part of the way we
work.
We really need to break downthose misconceptions and those
(36:49):
previous ideas that the generalpopulation have.
So I think a lot of that isthrough training.
A lot of that is just raisingawareness, talking through the
stories, sharing stories of reallived experiences, and it needs
to happen before you have thatindividual in that role.
So it has to be the generalawareness, the general
(37:09):
foundation for everyone thatthis is our culture, this is our
values.
We accept people as they areand we need to break down some
of those systemic barriers thatprevent people with different
disabilities, whether they'rephysical, psychological, whether
it's even not a disability oftheir own maybe there's other
reasons, other care requirementsthat they have that they need
(37:32):
those adjustments.
I just create that as the newnormal that people accept and
people understand the purposebehind it, and that it's not
about an individual needingpreferential treatment or
something like that.
It's just about prevention ofthose barriers.
I think once you get thatconcept out there, people become
(37:52):
much more open minded and muchmore accommodating.
Valerie Ling (37:56):
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
It's kind of looking at thewhole body of Christ.
There is spiritual maturity,there is growth and holiness and
reaching out to people andintroducing them to Jesus.
At the same time, we need tomake sure that our internal
structures are safe and strong,don't we?
(38:17):
Yeah, as we bring people intodisaster zones, I've had the
very unfortunate I'm notunfortunate, I've been curious,
but it has been very sad.
I've just been watching all thedockos out at the moment on the
collapse of variousmega-churches.
It's almost like we need to getso many of our internal
(38:38):
structures right.
Why do we have this level ofconflict happening?
Why are so many ministerssaying that they can't actually
they're exhausted, they'relonely and they're worrying
about their family?
I mean, can you imagine thatwhen I go to work as a
psychologist and I don't worryabout my family's safety because
(38:59):
really, the board and thepolice protect me, I am not
obliged to give any of mypersonal details?
If a client was stalking me orharassing me, I have the right
to go to the police and actuallylodge a report.
We live as psychologists.
We live within the safety toknow that we have the option to
(39:23):
decline work if it puts ourfamily and our kids in many
people in ministry don't?
They don't have that.
Katharine Moore (39:31):
Yeah, and I think even if they did, it's
such a sacrificial role, it'ssuch a put everything in kind of
role.
I think their own personalvalues really struggle with
pulling back from the person.
You know a person in need.
I know I worked in a roleseveral years ago that worked in
(39:52):
community care and workingparticularly with homeless
people, things like thathomeless children, and some of
the staff and some of thevolunteers they really they put
themselves at risk because theywanted to help these people and
they thought that the need wasbigger than the risk to
(40:13):
themselves and that the purpose,that the mission, was bigger
than themselves and they reallydidn't have the capacity to put
protection around themselves andcontrol them in a place they
didn't really see the biggerpicture that is there at risk
today.
They can't help people in thefuture either and it was really
(40:34):
important about trying to, Ithink, give them that bigger
picture, give them that sort ofability to put themselves first
and that it doesn't cause harmto the people that they're
trying to help if you putyourself first and if you put
some protective features inplace in your role so that you
can keep helping in the user.
Valerie Ling (40:54):
This comes out a lot for us in our practice with
our clients.
So there are not necessarilyjust the pastors, but ministry
workers who didn't think twiceabout walking into a domestic
violence situation or walkinginto someone who was, you know,
under the influence of alcoholor drugs because they got called
(41:16):
to.
You know, when you look at thatvery quickly like what are some
ways that you even formulatewhat you're meant to do with
that?
How do you work with that?
Katharine Moore (41:29):
It's so tough, right?
Because yeah, it's so tough onsome of these values.
It's about, you know, peoplewho are sacrificial and so it's
really hard for them to putthemselves first.
It's also they see this missionas so important, so critical
and so time-freshed that theyhave to make their decision
(41:50):
there.
They have to do it there, andthen I think the only way you
can do it is really pullingpeople out of that position for
a little bit, really bringingthem back and helping them to
see the big picture, the bigpurpose, to help them have that
mindset that they're able tostep back when they need to.
But yeah, it's tough.
Look, I haven't seen it donevery well yet.
(42:11):
When you've got someone who'sreally committed to that, that
purpose.
It's very, very tough.
Valerie Ling (42:16):
I think what you said earlier is also being able
to identify all of these assafety risks, because, I mean, a
psychologist wouldn't do thatIf we got a call to step into a
domestic violence situation orwe got a call to step into a
drug and alcohol situation.
We just wouldn't.
We've been trained to identifywhat our role is, what the risks
(42:37):
are and what sort of five stepswe need to take in order to
make a quality decision beforewe jump in.
So I wonder, too, whether it'spart of the job design.
I think, catherine.
Yeah.
Katharine Moore (42:49):
Yeah, definitely, and it comes down to
the controls we put in place.
Right, once we've got that jobdesign, once we've identified
the risks and this comes back tosafety now, right, that risk
framework, so you have the jobdesign, understand what the
risks are, then start puttingthe controls in place for how
you're going to prevent ormitigate that risk.
And I think a lot of workplacesdon't have that, especially in
(43:14):
this kind of industry, whetherit's the church or whether it's
community care, things like that.
I think there are businessesthat really don't have that
framework at the moment.
Valerie Ling (43:25):
You've just given me an idea.
If you and I were called tothis wonderful opportunity to go
and set up work with a churchplanning situation, that's
probably one of the formativeconversations to have.
As a church community.
We love our leadership team andour staff.
Let's look at some of the risksand the controls together as a
(43:46):
community.
Let's meet more regularly.
What came up in the lastquarter we'd love to know.
We'd love to actually work onhow we can keep the leadership
team well and safe.
Other things that we need toadjust, because there'll be
great ownership, I suspect, whenthere's more awareness on a
regular basis for just somethings that have come up and
(44:09):
that the ministry team may justnormalize as being.
That's just part of serving God, Isn't that?
Katharine Moore (44:14):
Yeah exactly.
Valerie Ling (44:16):
So we're going to finish with the questions that
I've asked everybody.
There was a church, a pastorlistening to our conversation
right now, feeling burnt out,feeling like they failed even as
a leader, because they're justnot bearing under the weight of
all of their ministryresponsibilities.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with and to
(44:39):
actually either implement orthink about?
Katharine Moore (44:45):
I think it's.
I think I'll come back to thatframework.
Keep it simple.
It doesn't have to beprofessionally written, but
start looking at what are theactivities that you do, what are
the risks that are associatedwith that and what controls can
you put in place.
Start to reduce it, ok.
Valerie Ling (45:03):
And let's say, if a whole church is listening to
us today going oh, we love ourministry team we're so sad to
hear about the set of affairswith pastors and clergy.
What's one thing you'd like achurch to really be thinking and
working on as a community.
Katharine Moore (45:26):
I think it's hard.
I'd like to say this is whatI'd like to say is ask, don't
assume.
Don't assume that yourleadership team is OK, don't
assume that the leadership roleis really easy.
Ask, ask how it's doing.
I hesitate to say that, though,because I don't know that the
leadership team can answer thatopenly and honestly.
(45:48):
But even if you don't ask, justassume that their role is big,
their role is really tough, andthink about how you can be a
servant, how you can add valueto the church, how you can add
value to your leadership team.
See, maybe there's a simpletask that you can take off there
and say you can support them.
Valerie Ling (46:06):
Thank you.
And finally, speaking more topolicymakers now at the level of
HR, the denomination, who arelooking after pastors, what's
one thing you'd like them towalk away with, in view of some
of the things that we've talkedabout?
Katharine Moore (46:24):
Yeah, look, I really think they need to invest
in this.
I think that they need to goand talk to the experts, bring
experts into the business, ifthey don't already have that, to
consult with them and to helpthem to start to put together
some of these frameworks.
I think training is essential,building that awareness, both of
the leadership team and forthose around them, looking at
(46:44):
how you support the especiallynew churches, that they start to
grow and start to build up, howthey set themselves up for
success.
And then, I think, implement.
I really love the PDC and thePlanned Education Act.
So don't just say we're goingto do something and go and do it
Really.
Plan it out, work inconsultation, do it, but then
(47:06):
check in, see what's working,see what's not working and what
you need to change and implementfrom there.
Valerie Ling (47:14):
As long as I'm listening to you.
I'm convicted myself becauseyou and I go to the same church,
so perhaps our ministry team isgoing to get a lot of love.
But I'm convicted myself that Iwonder, even within our context
, if there's three or four of usthat just make that part of our
hearts to every quarter checkin with our leadership team,
(47:40):
take them out for coffee,investigate what is the level of
safety and well-being at themoment.
If we did that, I think thatalso fosters that trust and
transparency.
But it can be quite contagious,because if three of us know
what the leadership team aredealing with and then another
(48:01):
three come into that, as we'reall circulating, we'll be able
to actually provide a voice ofcompassion or perspective or
reason that can actually spreadthrough.
Katharine Moore (48:14):
Yeah, and I think that peer-to-peer sort of
coaching, informal coaching, isreally effective and I think
it's a really great way to startyeah.
Valerie Ling (48:24):
Katherine, I knew that this would be such an
amazing conversation and it hasbeen.
Thank you so much for your time, Thank you for your wisdom and
your really clear thinking inthis space.
Thank you so much.
Katharine Moore (48:42):
Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
I love it.
I love talking about this suchthing, yay, looking forward to
what we can do together.
Valerie Ling (48:52):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Hello everybody, welcome to ournext episode of the podcast.
I have with me Katherine Moore.
She's a personal friend, butalso someone I think can provide
(00:50):
us with some valuable insightsinto some of the dynamics that
I've picked up in my clergywell-being and leadership survey
.
Welcome to you, katherine.
Katharine Moore (01:01):
Thank you so much.
I'm very excited to be here.
Valerie Ling (01:04):
Katherine, you and I got a church together as well
.
We do.
You are very familiar withchurch and Christian community
and I'm so eager to hear yousomeone who's out in the
commercial environment, verymuch leading and working in your
organization in this space, andhow you view some of the things
(01:28):
that might have I've picked upin the survey and what's
happening in churches.
But first tell us a little bitabout you and your role.
Katharine Moore (01:38):
Yeah, great, I started in safety about 15 years
ago and I think over time it'skind of morphed a little bit
from pure safety into health andwell-being and now, definitely
with the changes in legislationand changes in focus on how we
manage psychosocial risk in theworkplace, that's really become
a fundamental part of the roleand really important for how we
(02:01):
shape how business responds andnot just responds but identifies
and prevents these types ofthings in the workplace.
So yeah, I'm very lucky Icurrently work for a global
organization.
Within my remit I've got about900 employees that I'm directly
responsible for.
But, then I also get to impactglobally, so very lucky that
(02:22):
Australia is actually leadingthe way here.
So a lot of my counterpartslook to what we're doing here in
Australia and I get to helpinfluence that at a high level
as well, which is really cool.
Valerie Ling (02:34):
And your role has also been very interesting given
the last few years.
How have you seen that impactthe leadership tiers in your
business?
Katharine Moore (02:46):
Yeah, I think it's a real challenge for
leadership.
I think that a lot of peoplestill have the I think, the back
history of victimization thatstill comes up now right and
leaders are very concerned aboutif we go too far here, if we
open up, we'll have people in avictim mentality and we won't be
(03:08):
able to bring them back out ofthat.
So it's really about trying tocreate a very constructive
environment where we can sitdown and say what's really
happening in the workplace, whatare the real challenges and how
do we empower people to, Iguess, overcome those challenges
.
So it's not about saying workis too hard.
We need to put more people in.
(03:29):
It's about what are thechallenges in your role and how
do we redesign your role in away that you're empowered and
you can get done what needs tobe done.
Valerie Ling (03:40):
But our organization, which is not 900
employees.
We started to create ourworkplace wellbeing survey and I
have to say, Catherine, thateven when I got the first draft,
as the leader of my business, Ifelt uncomfortable.
Do you think that that's ahuman reaction, that you know
(04:03):
anything that's going toinvestigate how things really
are, that there's a humanreaction that goes with that?
Katharine Moore (04:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a most short topic towrite, and especially for
leaders, and particularly if youown your business.
Right, you've tried to createthis really amazing workplace
where people feel safe and wereflect that to psychological
safety, right?
Sometimes you know people think, oh, if they're putting up red
flags around, psychosocial, itmeans I haven't got these great
(04:31):
workplaces, I don't havepsychological safety.
I'd actually challenge that,say that's not true.
If they're able to speak up andsay I've got challenges, then
that means you do have apsychologically safe workplace
because they feel safe to speakup.
So now it's about working inpartnership with your work is to
say what can we do better, whatcan we do a little bit
different, or what can weimprove.
Valerie Ling (04:52):
Brilliant.
Let's start with definitions,shall we?
Yeah, so let's start.
You were saying to me thatthere's a broader category, if
you like, to what you do, solet's start with there.
So it's psychosocial safety isone part of it.
What is the broader picturewe're looking at?
Katharine Moore (05:13):
You've got two components here.
So within HR traditional HR welook at things like job design,
role load, relationship,conflict, bullying, harassment,
things like that, even roleclarity.
These types of things aretraditionally in HR and they
generally dealt with in areactive notion.
(05:34):
So if we set things up, wethink they're good, and then
people put their hand up and letus know if that's gone wrong
and we HR go and investigateAnyone who's been in that kind
of environment before.
Maybe there's been a bullyingcomplaint, that type of thing.
It's not a fun thing to gothrough, right, because we don't
assume the complainer is right.
We just hear there's somethingand we go and investigate I mean
(05:56):
investigate that person as muchas we investigate the person
that they're claiming or lead.
So it can be quite an emotionalchallenge.
It can be quite overwhelmingfor the person that's been
involved.
So then we go into the state.
So we've got this riskmanagement framework which looks
at going with a real unbiasedview and looking at the
(06:21):
workplace and identifying whathad this exist, what controls we
currently have in place toprevent them, and then what we
can do better.
And prevention is the key inthis aspect.
So really about can weeliminate this from ever
happening again, or can wecontrol it in some way that it
doesn't cause harm?
So what we're doing now iswe're merging these two worlds
(06:44):
together and we're saying HRhave all the skills and
experience in this world, butsafety has the framework for how
we can prevent it.
So we're starting to worktogether in partnership, which
is fun.
I think in some businessesthey're going to find it quite
successful.
Others may find it morechallenging, as they bring these
two worlds together and find anew way of looking at it.
Valerie Ling (07:05):
So let's look at the world of church leadership.
When you think about it as alayperson in church and then
with your professional roles andresponsibilities, what do you
think safety physical, emotional, psychological safety looks
like for someone who's leading achurch?
Katharine Moore (07:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting If we go back
to the psych and social, wekind of sweat it into two areas
Job demands.
Some of the job demands mightlook at role overload, emotional
demands, relationship conflicts, role ambiguity these things
are ripe in a church, right,Like that finds things every day
(07:48):
.
And on the other side we've gotjob resources.
So how much job control, tradesand recognition, supervisor
support, co-worker support,change consultation?
Maybe we're not so great atthat in church, right.
So you've got things, clergywho are sitting here who want to
lead their church and they'vegot all the challenges under the
job demands, but maybe they'relacking some of the support that
(08:11):
they need in the job resources.
And I think there's a fewfactors to that.
Like just observing as alayperson, I think there's a lot
of misconceptions around whatis the workload of a clergy
person.
It's really easy to say, oh,they just work on Sundays, right
, they just do one sermon, maybetwo summums a week, that's it.
(08:32):
So then there's that kind of Iguess not direct challenging of
it, but just sort of oh, arethey really under that much
pressure, Is it really that hard?
And there's a lack oftransparency.
A clergy person can't standwhat's going on.
There's a lot of privacy, a lotof confidentiality with how
they support their congregation.
(08:53):
So there's a lot of lack oftransparency, lack of ability to
reach out and ask for supportfor themselves.
But I think the biggest thingthat I see is probably a lack of
training.
They go through some level ofleadership training I know
you've looked at that and lookedat the different types of
leadership and particularlyservant leadership and where
(09:16):
that leads.
But do they get training insafety?
Do they get training inpsychosocial hazards?
Do they understand thewell-being and even self-care
tips?
I think that's probably anopportunity that we could bring
in to support them.
Valerie Ling (09:32):
So everything that you said just there, we're
going to need to put it on somekind of workplace safety poster.
There are probably aspects ofclergy well-being that have been
researched almost in isolation,catherine.
So I'll give you an example andI'm curious to see what you
think the jobs demands, jobs,resources, role and bevelance
(09:55):
very commonly has been studiedwithin and rightfully so within
the burnout space.
Now, one of the things I wastrying to investigate was to
what extent does leadershipburnout then lead to other kinds
of what I call destructiveleadership practices, or really,
in my framework, it was moreit's inappropriate, it's
(10:15):
forceful and it's unhealthy,unhelpful leadership.
How does that fit within apsychosocial or a safety model?
Katharine Moore (10:24):
Yeah, well, that would be a red flag really
for how they're going to impactthe rest of their team.
That type of behaviourdefinitely is just going to
increase the emotional demandsand the overall overload of the
rest of their team.
So what we'd look at and I'veworked in other businesses that
employ what they callconstructive leadership, which
(10:47):
really puts those sort ofdestructive behaviours aside and
really aims for how you work inpartnership and how you have
that more open, healthy sort ofleadership style, and that's
what you're aiming for if you'regoing to prevent psychosocial
Okay.
Having said that, I also thinkit's probably a red flag to say
that person is suffering fromsome psychosocial risks.
Valerie Ling (11:07):
Yeah, can you say a bit more about that?
Katharine Moore (11:10):
Yeah, I think we start to see symptoms from
people.
So when they're under distress,when they're under high levels
of pressure, some of thosesymptoms come out to either be
psychological or physical.
So you may start to see things.
Physical might be stomach achesand headaches and things like
that muscle pain, but thepsychological might start to be
those early signs of depressionor anxiety.
(11:33):
So you might start to see alittle bit of aggression, a
little bit of anger, a littlebit of snapping, because they're
just not coping very well underthe stress that they've
currently got.
Valerie Ling (11:41):
Okay, let's go through in this time that we
have, let's see what we can getout of your expertise, job
demands, job design what are thekey components in that, really?
Katharine Moore (11:56):
Oh, this is a tough one, right, because it's
individual.
So a piece of work I'm doing atthe moment is actually
combining psychologists and aphysical therapist to come in
and assess each job.
So doing the job task analysisto understand what's the
physical requirements of thetask that's pretty traditional.
Most businesses are pretty goodat doing that but bringing in
(12:19):
the psychological element aswell to say what are the actual
demands on it.
So in this space I'm definitelya lay person.
I definitely bring inspecialists that help me with
this to identify, you know,what's the level of
concentration required, what'sthe level of interaction with
other people.
Those types of things have tobe known.
It has to be part of your jobtask analysis so that you can
(12:42):
identify well what's thereasonable exposure to that in a
shift, what kind of breaks youwant to bring into that.
You like manual handling.
We know that for really heavymanual handling you want to have
breaks in there and that mightnot be a go have coffee break.
It may be task rotation and Ithink we need to start thinking
the same.
(13:02):
Well, from those psychologicalpressures and saying how do we
rotate that task a little bitand are?
You're very good at this?
I've seen little hints of that.
How you manage your diary andhow you look at you know what
types of pressure you have in aparticular activity and how you
break your day up, and I thinkthat's what we need to start
doing.
When we think about job design,it's not just the physical
(13:22):
aspects.
Valerie Ling (13:24):
I think it makes a really interesting points.
Do you think and I don't knowwhether you, I know you've been
doing some postgraduate studiesso maybe you have looked into
this but do you think thepsychological and physical like
just looking at those twocomponents, psychological and
economics and physical demandsof roles have really shifted
(13:44):
over the decades?
That have been significantchanges?
Do you think?
Katharine Moore (13:49):
Absolutely, I think, particularly as we start
to bring robotics and AI andthings in, we start to remove
all the really base level jobsfrom the person's task and we
leave them with the more complextasks that have to be done by
humans, and I think that justincreases their exposure to
those more complex activitiesthat require more focus, more
(14:10):
concentration, more problemsolving and it gives them left
downtime when they're doing thereally simple, mediocre kind of
jobs.
Valerie Ling (14:19):
So one of the common things I hear when we
discuss the well-being ofpastors is that, oh, but you
know, isn't that just part ofthe terrain?
You know pastors are meant todeal with pastoral issues.
There will always be conflictin the church and one of the
things that I've observed when Italk to pastors is a lot of
(14:42):
their role has got to do withcomplex budgets, complicated
governance and compliance issues.
You know the pastoral concerns.
There's a lot of legislationaround what you have to do
mandatory reporting, gettingyourself, you know, safe to be
around children, those sorts ofthings.
If you look at that in terms ofjob demands, do you think that
(15:08):
those are considered demands orthey just like oh, you know,
that's pretty normal, ordinary.
Everybody should be able tojust sail through them.
Katharine Moore (15:19):
I think it's a little bit of both.
I think they are complex,immense they are, and I think
it's become ordinary.
So we've we've changed ourperception on what we think is
normal and what we think is hard, but it doesn't change the fact
that it requires more brainpower.
It requires more concentration.
You've got less opportunity forerror as well.
I think we're moving more andmore into a world where we don't
(15:42):
have capacity to accept error.
We really expect everyone to beexcellent at what they do and
get it right first time, and Ithink that just keeps adding the
pressure.
I think the risk that we haveis that we've normalized that
and we've forgotten how hard itis, and so we have less
tolerance when people do have anerror, or they just say you
(16:04):
know what it's tough.
I need a break like I'm feelingfatigued by this From your
experience, even quantifyingfatigue.
Valerie Ling (16:13):
I mean, that's one of the things that we've been
looking at in our business,because we're well aware that
the type of fatiguepsychologists have is quite hard
to quantify.
How does one quantify fatigue,emotional fatigue even?
Katharine Moore (16:30):
I would love to know the answer to that.
I've seen things a bit like youknow, when you go to hospital
and they've got the pain scale.
I've seen fatigue scales likethat.
It's hard again because I thinkeverybody's perception is
different, everyone's experienceis different and their
tolerance level, fatigue isdifferent.
But we don't accept that as ananswer.
We really think that everybodyis the same as us.
(16:53):
I think that's the challenge forleaders, for leaders often they
have a very high tolerance forbeing able to manage those
complex tasks, for being able tomanage fatigue, and they get to
a position where they look atthe rest of their team and they
don't do it with any ill intent,but from their personal
experience they look at it andsay I don't understand when
you're fatigued, I don'tunderstand why you can't handle
(17:15):
this level of tasks, becauseit's less than I'm handling and
I'm fine, so why aren't you?
But I think we need to move toa point where it's okay to have,
you know, a fatigue scale,where people say, for me
personally, that's where I'msitting and this is what I need,
to get back up the chain alittle bit.
Valerie Ling (17:34):
So job design really needs to break down.
You need to study what a personis doing during a day, during a
week, and breaking it down intothese various very specific
components and I've heard whatyou said.
There's elements of complexity,tolerance for error, task
rotation, task duration.
(17:55):
I don't know of any ministrycontext that has dealt quite
into that detail?
Katharine Moore (18:04):
Yeah, I don't think I do and I think my
understanding of it andobviously I haven't worked in it
, but from what I observed it'sa very reactive role, right?
You don't always get to planout your week, you don't always
get to plan out your day.
It's about what to end up onthe desk and so you know,
planning those opportunities fortask rotation, planning those
(18:25):
opportunities for breaks,becomes more of a challenge.
Valerie Ling (18:28):
So perhaps what I'm listening and reflecting on
is that we as leaders can becomea psychosocial or a safety risk
to our team, not just forourselves, when those factors
are there and we don't even knowhow to identify them.
Katharine Moore (18:42):
Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
I think the more pressure we'reon as a leader and the more
we're struggling, the moreimpact we're going to have on
the people around us.
Yeah, we have less ability toself reflect and put controls in
place to protect others.
Valerie Ling (18:58):
I'd love to just pick up on what you said self
reflect.
Is that something that in yourbusiness you have a way of
training or structuring orinvestigating in your leadership
tier, or is it assumed thateverybody will know how to do
that?
It's?
Katharine Moore (19:14):
assumed.
I did work for a business I hadmentioned before about that
constructive leadership and thatwas really around 360 degrees
and lots of coaching and lots ofopportunities to self reflect
and to hear feedback around theimpact that you're having on
others, because we often go outwith intent and we view the
world from our perspective ofintent, but once we get that
(19:38):
feedback of the impact weactually had it, it helps us
then to self reflect and say,well, I went out with this
intent, but this is how itlanded.
How do I change that?
What do I need to dodifferently While I'm currently
up?
We don't have to in place atthe moment, but it's definitely
something I want to work towards.
Valerie Ling (19:56):
Catherine, how does someone get feedback on the
impact?
Katharine Moore (20:00):
Through feedback surveys.
So we were doing 360s, so thatwould be people above you,
people next to you and peoplebelow you, and it was a
validated survey, so it was verywell structured, standardized
questions that would be done ona set frequency so that you
could start to see the changethat you would have 360s have
(20:22):
challenges.
Valerie Ling (20:23):
Isn't it about trust?
Definitely yeah.
Katharine Moore (20:29):
It definitely doesn't work unless you've got
the trust.
Valerie Ling (20:32):
It's only one of the challenges in a business of
my size, for example, becauseyou can 100% identify who gave
you the feedback because you'vegot such a small team.
Would you say that that is anissue?
I think.
Katharine Moore (20:45):
It is and it goes back to psychological
safety.
So remember that they aredifferent and it's really
important that we see thedifference.
You may have psychosocial handsthat are not well-controlled in
your workplace, but if you havea psychologically safe
workplace where everyone feelscomfortable to speak up and talk
about what the challenges are,it's going to really help your
journey.
It's going to help you get thattrue feedback and move forward.
Valerie Ling (21:08):
Yeah, I'll just put it out there.
It's something that I've beenreally trying to work on in our
business, because psychologistshave very similar issues.
The trust and confidentiality,because your peers can actually
report you, you know ifsomething, and it's the same
with ministers.
The conduct the complaints cango through.
One of the things I'm workingon is actually two things
(21:30):
fostering a relationship with apartner practice.
They can get our feedback andwe can get their feedback and do
averages of analysis and beable to support one another that
way so that our team feels safeto see what they need to say,
and it's an aligned partnershipwith another business that can
(21:51):
help us.
But for now, what we've actuallydone is we've actually hired an
outsourced third party tocollect all of our surveys and
our information so that 100%nobody is identifiable when they
give the feedback.
Katharine Moore (22:08):
Yeah, that's how we did the constructive
leadership that was the partyoutsourced and all very well
documented.
So you knew who did the survey,because you'd select your 10
people but you didn't know whowas paying for it.
Valerie Ling (22:22):
Yeah, okay.
Now, one thing that churcheshave different to businesses is
that they're pretty much full ofvolunteers.
Yeah, so I just want to.
I'm curious to hear the levelsof conflict that have been
reported by the survey.
In the survey, I mean, wealways say our eyes here, our
(22:45):
church is full of we're notperfect people.
Of course there's going to beconflict, but you know these
were the same questions thatwere asked of Australian school
principals.
So you're getting peopleendorsing physical sexual
harassment, teasing, bullying,constant conflict and quarrels,
(23:09):
gossip and slander.
I mean, what is your view as aprofessional in this space when
you hear about that level ofconflict?
Katharine Moore (23:20):
Look honestly, I think it comes down to lack of
transparency.
I think that if it was moreopen and it was more known.
So I'll pick a differentindustry for a minute.
If we look at retail, whatwe've done in the retail space
is really vocalise and reallystart to share data around the
level of conflict that customersare showing towards retail
(23:43):
workers, and we're making itpublic and we're putting it out
there to say, as a community, asa society, we don't accept this
kind of behaviour.
It's not okay, and by doing thatit means that now other
customers are feeling braver toconfront inappropriate customer
behaviours.
(24:03):
They don't speak to that word.
To that way we're making itreally public and really really
loud and say that this is notwhat we stand for.
I think in the church there'sprobably an apprehension about
doing that, because we need tocreate an image of Christians
and what our values are and whatour standards are, and we don't
really want to publicly saybehind the doors that things are
(24:26):
going that well, that we're notnecessarily leaving the values
that we profess and that wevalue and that we believe in.
But I think also the media takesquite a lot of joy in
highlighting when Christians andchurches don't follow the
values that they stand by, andso I think there's probably some
nervousness about beingtransparent about some of those
(24:49):
behaviours.
And the risk with that is thatif bullies can bully behind
closed doors, they'll keep doingit.
You need to take those wallsdown and open those doors up.
show the bullies the light sothat others can stand up and say
we don't allow that kind ofbehaviour, and I think that's
always going to be the challengefor the churches, you know
(25:09):
making sure that we do stand forthe right values and that we
are known for that in thecommunity and that we're not
getting taken advantage of bythe media, but at the same time
we don't want to close off andhide what's happening behind
closed doors.
Valerie Ling (25:25):
One of the challenges I suspect in churches
is that it does happen unseen.
It's through the emails, it'sthrough the Facebook and the SMS
texts.
There are no formal channels tocommunicate this sort of thing.
I find that really interestingin that I used to say it's death
(25:48):
by a thousand paper cuts.
I think what people forget isthat there's very often one
pastor or even, let's say, threeto five pastors.
When you have three to fivepastors, your congregation is
usually at the size of maybethree, four hundred and upwards,
because there are no two-wayconversations in these sorts of
(26:09):
setups, like in my team, it's atwo-way conversation.
There's one of me and there's20 on the team, but there's
always two-way conversations.
I know your role.
I know my role.
If we're kind of stepping onone another's toes, let's have a
conversation and let's reviewthat role.
Now, with pastors, you've gothundreds of people sending them
(26:29):
emails, messages, discontent.
It's often not really a two-wayconversation.
I have a problem with you.
This is the problem.
I expect that you will fix it.
It's your job as the pastor ofthis church to fix it.
Katharine Moore (26:46):
I think that goes straight back to role
clarity.
Not only does the minister needto know what the clarity of
their role is, but thecongregation needs to know what
the clarity is as well.
They need to know what is theirresponsible for and what are
they not responsible for.
Because I think you're right, Ithink people have their own
perception, their own idea ofwhat is under their control.
Valerie Ling (27:09):
Do you think it's enough to go on a courtesy, care
and love campaign?
That's what Singapore did.
Oh, they had a little lion, Ithink he was like the ambassador
, I think, for courtesy.
The little cartoon will come onTV and remind you what the
values were and what thebehaviors are.
(27:30):
Have a little lion and interactwith the public.
Is that what we're looking at?
Is it some kind of a campaignfor church congregants?
Katharine Moore (27:40):
I think we could do that for the whole
community.
I think the whole community hasbecome quite vocal, quite brave
in speaking out on social mediaand via emails.
We have a different world now.
How many of these people wouldsay those things face to face
with a person?
I just don't think they would.
I don't think they would takethe time and I don't think they
(28:00):
would be brave enough to do it,whereas they've created this
space at home and I think theycould just jump on their
keyboard and send out thesemessages without any real
consequence.
I think we're creating acommunity of people who maybe
are speaking before they think.
Valerie Ling (28:15):
Let's say, in your workplace.
How do you cultivate a cultureof managing conflict well, being
respectful and knowing yourlimits when you're interacting
with someone else?
How does that happen?
Katharine Moore (28:30):
I think it is easier in the workplace.
You have stronger roles aroundrole clarity, hierarchy values,
respectful behaviour.
But I think the key successI've always seen is having those
conversations.
If I've got a problem with you,I don't go to your manager.
I don't go to my manager.
I go to you and I sit down andhave conversations.
(28:51):
This is the impact that you'rehaving on me.
You can talk about yourexperience and what the intent
was and we can have an openconversation about how that went
and what would be better nexttime.
Obviously, that type of work isescalation process, but that's
all really well formulated.
In a workplace as well, you'vegot your escalation process.
(29:12):
You've got different support,people to help coach you, have
those conversations orfacilitate those conversations.
I don't know that that existsas well in the church.
I think from the congregation'sperspective, they probably
don't have as much clarity aboutthe right ways to address their
concerns.
Valerie Ling (29:31):
Now, this was an interesting one, because most
pastors and, I think, mostcongregation, assume that the
Bible, in terms of godly conduct, tells us how we are to behave
as a church.
What do you think is missing?
Katharine Moore (29:51):
Probably it's the interpretation of it, how
people take the personalinterpretation about how it
impacts their behaviour.
I think people are very good atusing the Bible to say how you
should behave, but not so goodat looking at the Bible and
saying how I should behave.
Valerie Ling (30:09):
Let's say you and I have the opportunity.
One psychologist, oneleadership, safety, health and
wellbeing practitioner.
We have the chance and someonehired us and said look, we're
going to church plant.
We want to set up some of thestructures so that the
leadership, wellbeing andtransparency in the community
(30:32):
that's all been set up.
What would be some things thatyou would immediately say, yeah,
okay, here's what we need.
Katharine Moore (30:40):
That's a good question.
I think it would be great tosit down and online as a group
and say what are the key valueswe're going to take out of the
Bible that we want to say theseare non-negotiables, these are
the things that we want to seeevery day Because we accept that
people are in fact, right.
(31:01):
We accept that people aresinful and that they're not
going to live to the 5% of theirevery day.
But what are the key ones thatjust absolutely have to be there
?
And I think, by sitting downand talking through that and
agreeing on that and then maybeeven looking at it from, if we
refer quite to the workplace, wehave inductions, we have
orientations.
When we talk to people aboutwhat is our culture, what are
(31:23):
our values.
Do we do that in the church?
We welcome people and wewelcome them as they are, but
when do we sit down and say thisis what our church says and
this is what is really importantto us and what we want to see
living in the people in ourchurch?
Valerie Ling (31:40):
So if you had to chunk that down, do you mean
like values into behaviors?
Yeah, like as specific as thisis how we interact in the car
park.
This is how we interact in themorning tea.
Do you mean even really drilleddown to that Potentially?
Katharine Moore (31:59):
Look, I think you know, if you look at things
like car park in the morning tea, I'd probably go to that level
if there were issues there andwe had to say this is what it
should look like.
But I think look at the keythings that are problems.
So how is it we welcome newpeople?
How is it we deal with conflict?
How is it we raise concernsabout leadership in the church,
like those things that can bereally challenging, that maybe
(32:20):
people don't know exactly theright process, the right way to
raise those concerns.
Valerie Ling (32:26):
Okay, and so we'd have a look and we'd align
values, and I've often talkedabout a code of conduct within a
church.
Even so, in our business, I'veactually recraft a job designed
to include what I say, theircharacter statements, behaviors
that come from our values, thatwe all agree are important and
(32:48):
non-negotiable, and we havepermission to call one another,
including myself, out on it.
Now, you know, it's not beenvery like ingrained.
It's a work in motion.
But you know, I've seen somechanges in our team.
Instead of being afraid to saysorry I did the wrong thing,
it's just become automatic justto go oh, I'm sorry, I missed
(33:11):
the ball on that one, didn't I?
Or you know it's like, yeah,that's one of the character
virtues that we have.
Katharine Moore (33:15):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's exactly what Iwas sort of leaning towards, is
exactly that kind of format andI've seen it done very well.
So in the other businessconstructive leadership a strong
part of that is immediatefeedback.
So when you're in aconversation, if you've seen
behaviors that are not alignedto what we've agreed to, then
(33:38):
just calling that out in areally constructive way.
It doesn't have to beaggressive, it doesn't have to
be.
You know, you're bad firstthing.
You're doing the wrong thing.
It's just, hey, I kind of seeyou leaning towards this way.
Valerie Ling (33:50):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back to it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
Katharine Moore (34:13):
Let's try and go this way instead, and I find
that really effective.
Valerie Ling (34:18):
All right.
So let's go back to you and I.
You know we get this amazingopportunity to take a whole year
off to journey with a churchplanter, so that's what we do.
Is there anything else that youthink?
How about the job design aspect?
You know what you want to seein that.
Katharine Moore (34:38):
Yeah, I think the job design would be really
interesting.
Like I would love to actuallybring someone in, like a Valerie
, to actually do that job taskanalysis and really break it
down, look at what is an actualcomponent of that task and that
job and then look at is thereways I don't know, I haven't
worked in this field but isthere ways that we can start to
(34:59):
build some strategies in to helpthe clergy, to help the
leadership, to do task rotation,to take little micro breaks or
to take longer breaks at theright frequency so that they're
avoiding that burnout stage?
I think that would be reallyinteresting to actually do it
from that scientific level.
Valerie Ling (35:19):
Yeah, we once had a really interesting assignment
that was given to us.
It was such a compassionaterequest.
It was from a church who was inthe process of hiring an
individual that had certaincapacity issues.
That's just put it that way.
And at the time on staff we hada mental health occupational
therapist.
So that's exactly what theywent and did.
(35:41):
They went and investigate theergonomics.
They actually went toinvestigate the task, chunking
down and made specificrecommendations.
Some of them were reallycreative actually, but I think
what that did was it gave aconversation for the team to
understand that when this personis making an adjustment, it's
not them being precious yeah,this has actually been assessed
(36:04):
for their sustainability.
But how do you then share that,let's say, in this church
planting context?
Let's say you've now got alsovolunteers, people in the
congregation.
How do you build, how do youthink we build that connection,
that transparency, that empathy?
If you could come in and makethat happen, what would that
(36:26):
look like?
Katharine Moore (36:27):
Yeah, that's something I've been working on
recently.
So as we, I guess, move more,and more to a world where we
really want to create aworkplace that is inclusive of
all people.
Different disabilities,different capacities and
workplace adjustments becomemore and more part of the way we
work.
We really need to break downthose misconceptions and those
(36:49):
previous ideas that the generalpopulation have.
So I think a lot of that isthrough training.
A lot of that is just raisingawareness, talking through the
stories, sharing stories of reallived experiences, and it needs
to happen before you have thatindividual in that role.
So it has to be the generalawareness, the general
(37:09):
foundation for everyone thatthis is our culture, this is our
values.
We accept people as they areand we need to break down some
of those systemic barriers thatprevent people with different
disabilities, whether they'rephysical, psychological, whether
it's even not a disability oftheir own maybe there's other
reasons, other care requirementsthat they have that they need
(37:32):
those adjustments.
I just create that as the newnormal that people accept and
people understand the purposebehind it, and that it's not
about an individual needingpreferential treatment or
something like that.
It's just about prevention ofthose barriers.
I think once you get thatconcept out there, people become
(37:52):
much more open minded and muchmore accommodating.
Valerie Ling (37:56):
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
It's kind of looking at thewhole body of Christ.
There is spiritual maturity,there is growth and holiness and
reaching out to people andintroducing them to Jesus.
At the same time, we need tomake sure that our internal
structures are safe and strong,don't we?
(38:17):
Yeah, as we bring people intodisaster zones, I've had the
very unfortunate I'm notunfortunate, I've been curious,
but it has been very sad.
I've just been watching all thedockos out at the moment on the
collapse of variousmega-churches.
It's almost like we need to getso many of our internal
(38:38):
structures right.
Why do we have this level ofconflict happening?
Why are so many ministerssaying that they can't actually
they're exhausted, they'relonely and they're worrying
about their family?
I mean, can you imagine thatwhen I go to work as a
psychologist and I don't worryabout my family's safety because
(38:59):
really, the board and thepolice protect me, I am not
obliged to give any of mypersonal details?
If a client was stalking me orharassing me, I have the right
to go to the police and actuallylodge a report.
We live as psychologists.
We live within the safety toknow that we have the option to
(39:23):
decline work if it puts ourfamily and our kids in many
people in ministry don't?
They don't have that.
Katharine Moore (39:31):
Yeah, and I think even if they did, it's
such a sacrificial role, it'ssuch a put everything in kind of
role.
I think their own personalvalues really struggle with
pulling back from the person.
You know a person in need.
I know I worked in a roleseveral years ago that worked in
(39:52):
community care and workingparticularly with homeless
people, things like thathomeless children, and some of
the staff and some of thevolunteers they really they put
themselves at risk because theywanted to help these people and
they thought that the need wasbigger than the risk to
(40:13):
themselves and that the purpose,that the mission, was bigger
than themselves and they reallydidn't have the capacity to put
protection around themselves andcontrol them in a place they
didn't really see the biggerpicture that is there at risk
today.
They can't help people in thefuture either and it was really
(40:34):
important about trying to, Ithink, give them that bigger
picture, give them that sort ofability to put themselves first
and that it doesn't cause harmto the people that they're
trying to help if you putyourself first and if you put
some protective features inplace in your role so that you
can keep helping in the user.
Valerie Ling (40:54):
This comes out a lot for us in our practice with
our clients.
So there are not necessarilyjust the pastors, but ministry
workers who didn't think twiceabout walking into a domestic
violence situation or walkinginto someone who was, you know,
under the influence of alcoholor drugs because they got called
(41:16):
to.
You know, when you look at thatvery quickly like what are some
ways that you even formulatewhat you're meant to do with
that?
How do you work with that?
Katharine Moore (41:29):
It's so tough, right?
Because yeah, it's so tough onsome of these values.
It's about, you know, peoplewho are sacrificial and so it's
really hard for them to putthemselves first.
It's also they see this missionas so important, so critical
and so time-freshed that theyhave to make their decision
(41:50):
there.
They have to do it there, andthen I think the only way you
can do it is really pullingpeople out of that position for
a little bit, really bringingthem back and helping them to
see the big picture, the bigpurpose, to help them have that
mindset that they're able tostep back when they need to.
But yeah, it's tough.
Look, I haven't seen it donevery well yet.
(42:11):
When you've got someone who'sreally committed to that, that
purpose.
It's very, very tough.
Valerie Ling (42:16):
I think what you said earlier is also being able
to identify all of these assafety risks, because, I mean, a
psychologist wouldn't do thatIf we got a call to step into a
domestic violence situation orwe got a call to step into a
drug and alcohol situation.
We just wouldn't.
We've been trained to identifywhat our role is, what the risks
(42:37):
are and what sort of five stepswe need to take in order to
make a quality decision beforewe jump in.
So I wonder, too, whether it'spart of the job design.
I think, catherine.
Yeah.
Katharine Moore (42:49):
Yeah, definitely, and it comes down to
the controls we put in place.
Right, once we've got that jobdesign, once we've identified
the risks and this comes back tosafety now, right, that risk
framework, so you have the jobdesign, understand what the
risks are, then start puttingthe controls in place for how
you're going to prevent ormitigate that risk.
And I think a lot of workplacesdon't have that, especially in
(43:14):
this kind of industry, whetherit's the church or whether it's
community care, things like that.
I think there are businessesthat really don't have that
framework at the moment.
Valerie Ling (43:25):
You've just given me an idea.
If you and I were called tothis wonderful opportunity to go
and set up work with a churchplanning situation, that's
probably one of the formativeconversations to have.
As a church community.
We love our leadership team andour staff.
Let's look at some of the risksand the controls together as a
(43:46):
community.
Let's meet more regularly.
What came up in the lastquarter we'd love to know.
We'd love to actually work onhow we can keep the leadership
team well and safe.
Other things that we need toadjust, because there'll be
great ownership, I suspect, whenthere's more awareness on a
regular basis for just somethings that have come up and
(44:09):
that the ministry team may justnormalize as being.
That's just part of serving God, Isn't that?
Katharine Moore (44:14):
Yeah exactly.
Valerie Ling (44:16):
So we're going to finish with the questions that
I've asked everybody.
There was a church, a pastorlistening to our conversation
right now, feeling burnt out,feeling like they failed even as
a leader, because they're justnot bearing under the weight of
all of their ministryresponsibilities.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with and to
(44:39):
actually either implement orthink about?
Katharine Moore (44:45):
I think it's.
I think I'll come back to thatframework.
Keep it simple.
It doesn't have to beprofessionally written, but
start looking at what are theactivities that you do, what are
the risks that are associatedwith that and what controls can
you put in place.
Start to reduce it, ok.
Valerie Ling (45:03):
And let's say, if a whole church is listening to
us today going oh, we love ourministry team we're so sad to
hear about the set of affairswith pastors and clergy.
What's one thing you'd like achurch to really be thinking and
working on as a community.
Katharine Moore (45:26):
I think it's hard.
I'd like to say this is whatI'd like to say is ask, don't
assume.
Don't assume that yourleadership team is OK, don't
assume that the leadership roleis really easy.
Ask, ask how it's doing.
I hesitate to say that, though,because I don't know that the
leadership team can answer thatopenly and honestly.
(45:48):
But even if you don't ask, justassume that their role is big,
their role is really tough, andthink about how you can be a
servant, how you can add valueto the church, how you can add
value to your leadership team.
See, maybe there's a simpletask that you can take off there
and say you can support them.
Valerie Ling (46:06):
Thank you.
And finally, speaking more topolicymakers now at the level of
HR, the denomination, who arelooking after pastors, what's
one thing you'd like them towalk away with, in view of some
of the things that we've talkedabout?
Katharine Moore (46:24):
Yeah, look, I really think they need to invest
in this.
I think that they need to goand talk to the experts, bring
experts into the business, ifthey don't already have that, to
consult with them and to helpthem to start to put together
some of these frameworks.
I think training is essential,building that awareness, both of
the leadership team and forthose around them, looking at
(46:44):
how you support the especiallynew churches, that they start to
grow and start to build up, howthey set themselves up for
success.
And then, I think, implement.
I really love the PDC and thePlanned Education Act.
So don't just say we're goingto do something and go and do it
Really.
Plan it out, work inconsultation, do it, but then
(47:06):
check in, see what's working,see what's not working and what
you need to change and implementfrom there.
Valerie Ling (47:14):
As long as I'm listening to you.
I'm convicted myself becauseyou and I go to the same church,
so perhaps our ministry team isgoing to get a lot of love.
But I'm convicted myself that Iwonder, even within our context
, if there's three or four of usthat just make that part of our
hearts to every quarter checkin with our leadership team,
(47:40):
take them out for coffee,investigate what is the level of
safety and well-being at themoment.
If we did that, I think thatalso fosters that trust and
transparency.
But it can be quite contagious,because if three of us know
what the leadership team aredealing with and then another
(48:01):
three come into that, as we'reall circulating, we'll be able
to actually provide a voice ofcompassion or perspective or
reason that can actually spreadthrough.
Katharine Moore (48:14):
Yeah, and I think that peer-to-peer sort of
coaching, informal coaching, isreally effective and I think
it's a really great way to startyeah.
Valerie Ling (48:24):
Katherine, I knew that this would be such an
amazing conversation and it hasbeen.
Thank you so much for your time, Thank you for your wisdom and
your really clear thinking inthis space.
Thank you so much.
Katharine Moore (48:42):
Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
I love it.
I love talking about this suchthing, yay, looking forward to
what we can do together.
Valerie Ling (48:52):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
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