September 6, 2023 • 47 mins
Dave & Kathy Thurston have been married for over 40 years and have three grown up children. They have been in ministry in one form or another for nearly forty years. Five and a half years ago Dave and Kathy Thurston left Sydney and parish ministry to work in the Presbyterian Church of Queensland. Their brief was mentoring pastors and their wives, training other to be mentors, develop a post college training program as well as various other ventures. Six months ago, they returned to their three adult children and wider family but not to the inner west. They now live in Blackheath on two acres where God willing they will build a Christian Retreat centre.
They love working with their brothers and sisters in Christian ministry to be healthy and fruitful followers of Jesus.
They continue to train people to be mentors through Mentor Equipping Queensland
In this episode they share their story, their journey and they deepest longings for ministry to be joyful and sustainable. They share their wisdom on how mentoring, combined with spiritual development and health, plays a critical role in ministry. The episode takes a deep look into the importance of emotional awareness, spiritual maturity, and understanding our emotions under the guidance of Jesus for effective leadership.
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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Welcome to another episode ofthe clergy well-being Down Under
podcast.
I have David and Kathy Thurstonwith me.
Welcome, thank you.
I'll let you introduceyourselves.
David Thurston (00:49):
My name is David and Kathy and I have been
married for 41 years.
We have been doing ministrytogether for nearly 40 years, so
it's been a partnership ofconsiderable length.
Kathy Thurston (01:06):
Yeah, so we've loved a long time in pastoral
ministry and we've, during thattime, had a lot of theological
students come through ourchurches which we've loved
spending time with, and that'sled to what we're doing now and
what are you doing now?
Well, we have a mentoringministry, so we now live in
(01:27):
Blackheath and we've taken thatfrom a non-nominational role now
into private role and we stillwork for the presides in
Queensland.
David Thurston (01:39):
So look, can I just say we have three children
as well, and if they ever sawthis they'd be probably offended
if we did that Three grown upchildren, very mature children.
So what we're doing is we'reinvolved in training people, in
mentoring, so we do that,constructing a course for post
(02:01):
college, being involved inbringing about some consultancy
training for churches up inQueensland.
So we're doing that sort ofmaterial and hopefully we can
pass that on.
That's our aim in the next fewyears and then we'll sort of
finish up with that sort of work.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (02:22):
And how would you define mentoring?
David Thurston (02:25):
Well, that's a very good question, isn't it?
That's, yeah, you can die athousand times on that one.
Well, look.
So for me, in terms ofmentoring people in ministry, I
combine a bit of coaching andmentoring, and when I'm doing
the coaching, which tends to bein skills, I try and bring that
(02:46):
into.
How does that shape?
How's that shaped by yourspirituality, by your work with
Christ?
And then when I'm talking aboutthe relationship with Christ
and maturity there, I want totry and bring it into the skills
.
So it sort of combines thespiritual development and health
with the skills in ministry aswell, and that's, from my
(03:07):
perspective, what I do.
Valerie Ling (03:09):
Yeah, and so I'm really catching you.
We're recording from.
You're about to do a workshopat the Oxygen conference.
What is your workshop?
Called Cassie.
Kathy Thurston (03:20):
Okay, so it's about the importance of
emotional awareness in spiritualmaturity.
So that's something that we arenot experts in, but have found
through our own life story howimportant that's been for us to
grow in our relationship withGod, to understand what God has
(03:44):
been wanting to teach us aboutourselves through the various
ups and downs of our lives andour ministry.
And he invites us into thatspace.
Where are we going to thinkabout that more deeply and have
that shape, how we see God, howwe understand our relationship
(04:07):
with him, and that's, for me,that is critical to us growing
up in Christ.
And so that invitation iseveryone has Christ is when you
have them, are you going toenter into what God wants to do
through that?
Valerie Ling (04:23):
emotional awareness like do you have a
working definition for God orhow do you conceptualize that?
Kathy Thurston (04:30):
We start with Daniel Goldman's stuff on ESI
emotional and socialintelligence.
So he's talking aboutself-awareness and
self-regulation and then hetalks about being socially aware
of others and then being ableto manage others.
So that's just a place to startgetting familiar with the
(04:50):
emotions that we feel and usingthem as a helpful guide to what
is going on inside of us.
David Thurston (05:02):
No, I think Kath covered it pretty well.
So I think, for guys especially, it's not that we don't have
emotions, it's that we tend notto be able to name them and be
able to describe them.
And if you can't do that, it'svery hard to regulate them.
It's very hard then tounderstand where they're pushing
(05:26):
you to, and then it'sincredibly hard, if you're a
leader of a Christian group, tohelp the group to regulate their
emotions as well and be healthy.
So the Bible's full of emotionsand it's full of suggestions
that we need to not let ouremotions run away with us, but
(05:48):
to bring them under the controlof Jesus so that we might be
able to lead well and be healthyin all of our relationships.
Valerie Ling (05:57):
For 40 years in ministry.
Was there something that youlearnt that you were quite
intentional about reflecting onwhen you started ministry?
Kathy Thurston (06:11):
No avoidance would have been my default
position, and I think I avoideduntil I could not avoid anymore.
David Thurston (06:22):
So yeah.
Kathy Thurston (06:24):
I think God was probably yelling at me through
Dave, through others, throughthings that happened to us, and
I was very keen to ignore thatfor many years.
David Thurston (06:38):
Our families do conflict very differently, so my
family does cold war extremelywell.
So basically, the way we dealtwith conflict was we ignored it
and I do, my family does hot war.
Absolutely everybody knows thelaunch codes and they're willing
to press them, and so you canimagine.
(06:59):
For us, when we first gotmarried, just the differences in
our families meant that I'mreversing, sort of I've got the
big, big, big of the truckbacking up very quickly and cats
advancing not wondering what'swrong with me being able to
engage.
We had to learn how to engagewith differences because there
(07:21):
were so many differences and theway we handled them it wasn't
the healthiest way.
So I call marriage thedifficult, delightful discipline
of marriage.
It can be delightful.
It's always going to be achallenge, but it's a
discipleship that you'reinvolved in and we were not
(07:42):
doing too well early on.
Valerie Ling (07:43):
I can imagine, though, Cathy, if you're
advancing, you must be feelingthings.
So when you're saying that youavoided your emotions when you
were pursuing the conflict, wereyou aware of things that you
felt like you mean sort of justnot aware and then processing
that emotion.
Kathy Thurston (08:02):
Well, it's just, it's about controlling my
things, so they control me.
So anger is my primary emotionand so it's not very helpful
when you pursue someone angryand are out of control with that
.
Valerie Ling (08:18):
And so how did you get to the point where you've
got this idea, a concept we'vegot to work on being more aware?
How did that come about?
David Thurston (08:33):
Do you want to start that?
Look, I think things had to getreally bad before they got
better.
And when our children becometeenagers, some of the patterns
of the way that we related nolonger worked.
And it was a tough time.
(09:01):
We loved each other, we werecommitted to the marriage, but I
don't know if we liked eachother very much at times and it
ended up with one of ourchildren leaving home and that
that was really a trigger, forwe actually need to do something
(09:24):
about this.
Because, you know, I was sayingI didn't want.
I didn't want this to happenanymore, and Kathy wanted to
happen anymore either.
But we're just locked as afamily into a way of behaving.
So we decided to get somecounselling.
(09:44):
We eventually ended up withsome family systems counselling,
which I was really happy with.
The first counseling we went tobecause the lady just wanted to
work with Kathy and I thoughtthat was terrific.
I love that idea.
But you can't do that withfamily counselling.
And all of a sudden, mypassivity came out in terms of
(10:07):
part of the problem, in terms ofwe were related.
So it we went and got help andwe were committed to getting the
help because we were committedto our marriage and we're
committed to being betterparents.
Yeah, so that's what we did,and we started learning about
(10:29):
those sorts of things andstarted I started getting
mentoring and we started seeingthat there was ways of behavior
and there were skills that youcould learn, that God could use
to bring about real change.
Yeah, so that's what happened.
Kathy Thurston (10:45):
Yeah, I think that it started with changes in
our marriage and in our family.
But what was really clear to mewas that what's that behind
that?
That was just a flaw in the wayI related to God.
And so this is where this wehave this choice to face things
(11:11):
because from that we're going toactually grow deep in our
relationship with God if we'rewilling to take on that hard
work.
And so my relating to him wasyou know, I was Christian.
I'd become a Christian when Iwas 15.
But it was very transactional,so there were expectations I had
of God that if I fulfilled mypart of the bargain, then it was
(11:38):
his job to give me what Iwanted and said needed yeah.
So from doing this work here,it changes our relationship with
God and then it changes the waywe do church actually so there
was that flow on to what you saw.
(12:02):
Your role is how you wanted to,the sense of what you wanted
church to be and how you weregoing to lead.
So, that was.
You know it's always flow on.
That comes from that.
That's really important.
Valerie Ling (12:16):
Yeah, I'd love to know what that tangibly looked
like, that transformation thatyou went within yourself in your
marriage, flowing on to yourleading church.
David Thurston (12:28):
Probably the most significant.
So basically we were involvedin a church plant in the early
90s and God bless that in a lotof ways.
And then it went horribly wrongand I burned it out and I had
(12:50):
four months off and I justthought.
Then I went and found anotherjob, so I don't have time to go
into all that.
I didn't think we would everchurch plant again.
So we got to do my national jobfor three years and then
something happened.
I thought I'd really like to dochurch planning again.
(13:10):
So we went to plant CentralSydney.
But what I did was I said thistime what happened before will
never happen again.
So I'm going to fill, proofthis, but I'm a pretty big fill
so I can manage to stuff thingsup.
So I made all of the objectives, all of the values which nobody
(13:32):
else had any input into.
It implied that what I got donefor previously couldn't happen
again.
And after about two years ofdoing church again, I was asking
really basically basicquestions like what is church,
(13:54):
what is ministry?
Even what am I doing when Ipreach and I read some museum
papers and under theunpredictable plant which I
really loved but it's sort ofjust mucked around with all of
that, and so two things sort ofhappened as a result of that.
One is I threw out the big sortof goals, objectives thing and I
(14:21):
said we're going to need towork this out ourselves as a
church.
So I sort of relinquished whatwas my protection and a fair bit
later what we did was we wentthrough that whole process again
and we went through a processwhere I did a draft of a lot of
(14:42):
those things and then there area number of people who would
have the power to redraft thatand that was going to be the
churches, and I was out ofcontrol.
And that was one of thosethings where I thought right,
this is where this is God'schurch, this is not my church,
(15:03):
and I think that that created apretty big shift in things.
But when you go through thissort of stuff, the way you
preach becomes different as well, and what you see in the
scriptures becomes different.
So there's a lot of changesthat went on just in
relationships and how we handledwhat you get upset about and
(15:25):
what you don't.
Valerie Ling (15:28):
That's a caveat.
As you're going through thisprocess, then, with a deeper
understanding of self and youremotions and being your marriage
, was that different for you aswell?
Kathy Thurston (15:37):
Well, I was a long way behind here so, but I
sort of caught up andinterestingly I would for me.
I just remember the acceptance,that of what was important in
(15:58):
my relationship with God andthat just it means you let go of
the control thing is a reallybig thing for me.
I would say so, what I wasdemanding of God, that wasn't
turning out how I wanted yougive up on that because it's not
important.
(16:19):
So, Philippians 3 has beenreally important for me and just
that.
Where Paul is desire is to knowChrist, everything else is
stripped away of the things hebrings, and I just remember the
freedom found in that.
For me, that's all that Godwanted me to do is to commit
(16:42):
myself to knowing him more andthen being his person in
whatever way that I was, andthat was a very different
attitude to for me in parish andstill relating to people, and
(17:05):
you know it came from adifferent attitude to writing to
the kids.
David Thurston (17:09):
And it impacted our relationship with our kids
enormously.
So, yeah, there's a lot offractures that just took time in
a different way of behaving andtrusting God in that and the
estrangement was mended and wehave a good relationship with
(17:31):
our kids now.
Kathy Thurston (17:33):
So realising God's.
I had a, just a commitment tohim shaping me to be the person
that he saved me to be, and thatis about my personality, it's
about my family origin, it'sabout the experiences he's given
(17:53):
me, and yet he knows me and hasa role for me to play, and
that's really, really importantfor me now in my role in
ministry, and I find that reallyexciting.
But it means that, yeah,accepting that we are just God's
(18:15):
people and that's OK.
I don't have to have all theanswers.
I don't have to.
You know, I don't have to beperfect, neither does anybody
else.
And, yeah, that was a realchange for me in both my
relationship with God and others.
David Thurston (18:33):
Yeah, I'd say there's a number of things that
I look at current church cultureand ministry culture.
I would say that one of thethings that changed was I didn't
have a sense of urgency.
This is God's Kingdom, it'sGod's church.
(18:53):
Now.
I'm 65 now.
So when you're 65, you've gotto go OK.
So if something big is going tohappen, it's probably not going
to happen now and I'm not goingto be playing football for
Australia.
(19:13):
That's pretty clear by now.
But God's Kingdom is so muchbigger and the things that along
for in terms of a healthychurch, healthy ministry, that's
going to be generational work.
But what we can do and whatwe're wanting to do is to invest
in people.
(19:34):
Who will invest in people?
Who will invest in people andit may well be two, three
generations and what we will seefrom our heavenly perspective
is a wonderfully healthy church,healthier than what we have,
that we've contributed to.
(19:56):
But we will never be able tosee on this earth now what that
will look like.
But we're investing in thefuture.
Valerie Ling (20:06):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:28):
And so one of the things thatmy survey found was that burnout
was related to levels of it'salmost like emotional
suppression, like we've got toput on a particular facade.
You know it's a very similarthing that you find with
customer service staff likealways look happy, all the stuff
(20:51):
that's going on in your hair,just kind of buried.
That was related to burnout andclergy you surprised do you
find this as well.
David Thurston (21:02):
No, no, and I think that's because it's a
suppression about humanity.
Yeah, so God's made us.
You know, we are flesh andspirit, so we sit between the
animals who are flesh and theangels who are spirit, and we
are the image of God.
So we've been made and ourbodies are fundamental to that,
(21:26):
and so our humanity is anexpression of how we learn to
mirror God and God has.
God is a God who loves, and Godis a God who is indignant and
angry at sin, a God who isgracious and merciful, all of
(21:50):
those things.
But if we're suppressing, soyeah, if we're suppressing after
the fall and we're justgritting our teeth, we're not
learned, we're not grown, we'renot receiving grace.
Where faking it till we'remaking it is should never be on
the lips of a Christian.
(22:11):
I think you know repentance,forgiveness will be a good thing
.
Being curious as to why I doand feel the way I do and where
that comes from, that would begreat.
But I think suppressing,ignoring, is just going to mean
(22:31):
you get tighter and tighter andtighter and somewhere that just
busts and you don't learnanything.
You do on the other side, ifyou allow God to teach you
something.
Valerie Ling (22:43):
Well, that was the other thing that we found was
that lower levels of selfinsight were related to that
sort of suppression and alsoburnout.
But how do you practically dothat?
Because if you're needing achurch and someone's really
giving you know, it is reallytelling you some things that are
causing you to feel some things.
(23:04):
You know, in my job I would usethis phrase of going when I
hear you say that I've noticedthat I feel this and therefore I
think we need to do this Now.
I don't know that that goesdown so well.
It just what does it?
David Thurston (23:22):
Well, I haven't done that.
That says I have a very goodphrase.
Kathy Thurston (23:26):
I was going to say.
I feel like we've ended up witha culture like you described,
in terms of people putting on afacade.
We've ended up with that sortof culture with leaders because
we've created that.
So we have had expectations ofour leaders to be certain sorts
of people and we've wanted themto be that.
(23:48):
So we've actually encouragedthem to, even if they weren't
that, to pretend that they were.
So, if we're going to break thatdown.
Actually, we talked about thisthis morning asking open
questions where we really wantto hear about people and their
(24:10):
lives and whatever, and givinghonest answers, because that is
the way to break that sort ofthing down, and people in
leadership need to be thoughtfulabout how they do that.
For sure, because there's notappropriate places or people to
share your deepest things with,but there is lots of room in
(24:31):
between for honesty.
Valerie Ling (24:34):
So it's almost like building up some relational
and trust capital when we'rehaving these sorts of
conversations, so that when wedo have to have hard
conversations and express hardfeelings or process hard
feelings, we're not startingfrom ground zero.
Is that?
David Thurston (24:48):
sort of yeah, yeah, and part of that is in a
church is a leader has to modelthat.
So ministry is much more thanjust teaching accurately and if
that's all it was, ministry is avery expensive way of doing
that and you probably could justbuy a lot of tinder cometaries
and give it to everybody andthey can read that on a weekend.
(25:11):
But if you're going to dosomething different, then the
relationship is fundamental tothat and part of that is
allowing people to see howemotions and life and trouble
and suffering and joy anddelight are being expressed in
(25:33):
your life and in your marriage.
And all of that Paul says youknow.
He says, imitate me over andover again, paul, of everybody
in the first century, we knowmore about his inner life than
anybody else in the firstcentury and I think that's the
(25:54):
model.
Now I don't think we have topour out every bit of trouble,
but people have to know what itmeans to be human, what it is to
have emotions, the struggle ofactually controlling them, the
joy and the progress.
And Paul says Timothy, letspeople see your progress.
(26:17):
And that takes time.
That's the other thing.
Kathy Thurston (26:21):
Urgency get rid of urgency, it takes time and
the church is the perfect placeto be doing that if you, if it's
, you have a time yes, and youhave these specific group of
relationships that you can bebuilding on week by week.
Valerie Ling (26:40):
So I mean, it's just a church is a wonderful
community where you can beexploring that with one another.
I've noticed as I've returnedto a little bit of clinical work
after the sabbatical, is thatafter the pandemic and ministers
diaries are so packed and hetasks that are flipping on one
(27:03):
another so they could be meetingwith, you know, an entity like
a group, and then having staffmeeting and then going to do a
visitation and then short dinnerand then they're out for youth
group again.
I'm just noticing how packed itis.
There's another lot of space.
Well, as you said, time or yeah, space silence, solitude.
David Thurston (27:25):
So why do you?
Kathy Thurston (27:26):
think that is.
I'd love to explore.
Why have we gone back to thatpost COVID?
When was it were those people'sdiaries always like that?
Because I mean, obviously Ithink church is a suffering from
both people not returning tochurch but also not returning to
(27:48):
service in church.
So, um, um, voluntary servingand that sort of thing.
So clergy feeling like theyneed to fill the gaps in those
sorts of things.
Uh yeah, I think that's a greatquestion.
Valerie Ling (28:02):
I think that's a great question and probably even
the way that we could use ouremotions is to is to actually
ask ourselves it.
So I'll use myself as anexample.
I've similarly caught up in Icall it post pandemic plug.
But we've just packed on allthis stuff to survive through
those difficult times and, youknow, I'm feeling incompetent
(28:24):
because I can't keep up with allthose things anymore.
I'm feeling more and more alonebecause all of those compliance
things I can't share with myteam yeah, my sole
responsibility, or it feels likethat.
And then you, you start toreally feel that the mode, the
negative self-emotions, right,you feel ashamed, you feel like
a failure to be disappointingpeople.
David Thurston (28:57):
that's the point .
Do you think if you allowedyourself the space, you might
actually get the negativeemotions coming up?
But if we keep on being busy,maybe they won't yeah so it's
suppressing those, and but wheredid I go, well?
Well, I don't get less.
Kathy Thurston (29:17):
It just, it just ferments unhelpfully below the
surface until something happens,and then it's whoosh, yeah, and
that's burnout so, in order toprocess those things, you need
to allow time for those, and youalso need more reflective life
(29:37):
and you know, we keep saying toour kids you know, if you never
stop to think about what's goingon for you, you're actually
never going to get any answersor any change.
Valerie Ling (29:46):
Yeah, I think we also need safe relationships
because, you know, emotionsaren't something that you just
feel on your own, it's also inour interactions with one
another.
So one of the things the surveyfound was that, potentially,
the level of conflict that umministers are facing um,
particularly if they're solo ordoing a lot of things by
(30:06):
themselves, it's not always safeto allow those emotions to come
up, or you may not have what.
What are your thoughts on that?
What are your I reckon,ministries.
David Thurston (30:16):
So I've been doing ministry and I was a solo
minister in the country since1985.
Ministry back then wasincredibly simple compared to
what it is well.
What I mean by that is therewasn't all the compliance stuff
(30:37):
to start off with.
I mean, that's just gettingmore and more and more.
The expectations oncongregations weren't enough,
weren't enormous.
You know, if you've preachedand you visited, that was you're
doing well.
And then we got personalcomputers and we started to
desktop publishing and so all ofa sudden there's all of this
(30:58):
stuff that that gets added on tothat.
But there's also, there's alsoa certain competitive spirit
that's going on in churches,church to church, and I think
that's really unhealthy.
Um, uh, we, we, we have such aconsumer society and so
(31:21):
ministers somehow been drawninto this thing of performance
and there's there's no space forfeeling depressed or anxious.
Valerie Ling (31:35):
I mean, that's that's for the week so it
becomes in and of itself aperformance measure it does,
yeah, and so that's reallyunhealthy.
David Thurston (31:44):
Um, and you're right, I think, having having
really good friends whounderstand the pressures of
ministry and frequently it'sonly other ministers who really
do understand that, or you know,clergy wives or something like
that, and that's why I think thespiritual renewal groups are so
(32:05):
important um, there's a levelof being able to share with
other people who know what it'slike, and then there is a level
of accountability, but it'shealthier accountability and
(32:26):
there's a degree of support it'snot complete sort of support,
but it would be one of thethings I would say that is
really important for goodself-care and health.
But outside of that, you wantother friends.
You can talk to them, just ringup on the phone and say I'm
having a dog of a day, yeah,yeah.
Valerie Ling (32:47):
So sneak peek here .
You're going off to yourworkshop very soon, so you do
need to learn about that.
You know, essentially what areyou going to share about
emotional awareness and whatwill be the takeaways from
today's workshop.
Kathy Thurston (33:01):
I think it's where I started that.
So we've heard a lot of storiesthis week about the different
trajectories for people'sministry that God has
interrupted and has thenprovided a challenge about.
Am I just going to scramble toget back to where I was, or is
(33:24):
there something new that God iswanting me to learn about myself
?
And so the big takeaway, I hope, is that in that moment, what
are you going to do with thatopportunity?
And to take time to explore it,the emotions of it, where it's
come from, who am I in that andwhy am I that person?
(33:48):
So, background and personalitystuff, but what is it wanting?
What is God wanting to teach usabout himself and our
relationship with him?
Because that is the thing thathe's going to lead to spiritual
maturity, and that's what weneed for our field.
(34:08):
Can I read a lot of commentariesand do a couple of personality
tests, because everybody'scrisis and the way they come to
it is going to be personal, it'sgoing to be different, and it
requires you, before God, tounderstand that and to work on
it.
So it actually takes, then, awhole change of your life to
(34:32):
take that on and to continue toexplore it.
David Thurston (34:37):
So one of the things that will get people to
do is to think about whatemotions they're experiencing,
being able to identify them andwhat, but the thing is, where do
they come from?
What do those emotions push meto do?
So what's my reactivity interms of that?
So think about the situationwhere that emotion arose.
(35:01):
Where is it pushing you to stop?
Is that what God wants you todo?
What's unhealthy about that?
How do you respond to thatemotion?
And to do it in a way that'sChrist-like, christ-dependent,
and begin a differentconversation with people.
Valerie Ling (35:23):
Or maybe yourself.
David Thurston (35:25):
But you've got to be quite self-reflective and
create space.
You cannot microwave maturity.
What that on a t-shirt?
It's slow cooking.
Maturity is long, takes timeand you go forward, you fall
back and it's okay.
(35:47):
God's got us, he surrounds uswith His love and he has no
expectation that we read a bookand within a month we've nailed
it.
Valerie Ling (36:00):
So true, so true.
David Thurston (36:04):
So the cross gives us a place to stand where
we can do some of the mostunsafe places, unsafe things,
and that means to look into ourheart and our life and see how
God wants to bring aboutChrist-like change within us, so
that we love Him more and welove those around us.
Valerie Ling (36:24):
So I've got some final questions.
If there was a pastor, or evena pastor's wife or sometimes
they're also single but someonewho's a leader in ministry and
they've just tuned in andthey've listened into our
conversation, what's one thingyou'd like them to walk away
with?
To either think or do.
David Thurston (36:47):
Face God honestly about themselves and
start exploring what that meansI'd say something very similar
and I'll put it this way Toactually sit down and be quiet.
(37:08):
So the problem when we haven'tpracticed silence and silence
isn't just a matter of doinglala, lala or alms in our head
or something like that, but it'sbeing God's presence.
When we first do that.
We don't like doing it becauseall the crap comes up and that's
part of the reason why we do it.
(37:29):
This is the way we identify thecrap.
We feel bad about this.
We haven't done this.
We're out of control.
It's paying attention to that,writing it down and then asking
God to make sense of the messand being able to sit with that
long enough to allow scriptureto start speaking to us and
(37:53):
talking to friends and talkingto mentors.
Kathy Thurston (37:58):
And putting the support people around you to
help you do that that wordbefore God.
Valerie Ling (38:06):
Now there are some churches that have actually
subscribed to the podcast.
They've got their elders tosubscribe or the puzzle care
committees to subscribe, ifthere was such a group listening
to us today a church who'sreally looking to see how they
can care for their leaders.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with from our
conversation?
David Thurston (38:27):
I would say.
One as a minister, you don'thave to ask permission to be
healthy.
Two a church that isspiritually healthy is an
incredibly rare thing and thatwould be a light shining in the
(38:47):
darkness, and that would be acommunity who understood how
they felt.
So this is the work of a church.
It might start with the pastor,it might start with some else
and it should, it should startwith the leaders, but if it
grows into being a church, thewitness of that will make
(39:08):
evangelism very easy, becausepeople are just becoming it and
say what is it that you've gotgoing on in your life?
We want to be like you, andthey might not like the answer,
but that's getting back a littlebit to what the New Testament
was like being ready to give areason for the hope that lies
(39:30):
within you, because there's achurch that's operating out of a
different space, out of a spaceof the love of God that allows
people to be transformed.
Kathy Thurston (39:43):
Yeah, I think I would say to them develop a real
relationship with your minister.
You're on the same side.
You are a team working togetherto lead a church.
You are not opposed to oneanother.
So you need to get to know oneanother, and in a real
(40:05):
relationship.
So that requires time andlistening to one another's
stories and finding out fromeach other what we need in order
to grow more healthy in Christ.
David Thurston (40:16):
So when do we start using the word volunteers
for brothers and sisters inChrist?
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Interesting.
David Thurston (40:22):
So if the pastoring is transactional
rather than volatial, there'ssomething wrong.
We can't love peopletransactionally.
So what does that mean?
That how church has to change.
Valerie Ling (40:43):
Yeah, and the final question is at a policy or
denominational or even, youknow, rather college level?
You know it could be one thingyou want sort of at the policy
level.
You know there's one thing youcould say.
David Thurston (41:03):
Do you want to go?
Kathy Thurston (41:04):
first, lots, lots of things at each of those
levels I'm excited.
Valerie Ling (41:09):
This is the one question that usually stops.
Kathy Thurston (41:13):
Well, you want to talk about college first or
no, well, okay.
David Thurston (41:20):
So I had a good friend who was part of our
church and is in the collegeelectric college.
He asked me to.
He said, as people leavecollege, what do they need to
know?
What three things do they needto know?
I said one.
(41:42):
They need to know what Paulknew in one Timothy one, that
Jesus Christ came into the worldas a sinner and the chief.
(42:03):
There is such a sense of graceand love and humility that Paul
understands that he saved.
We can't do anything butminister out of that.
The second thing is here is atrustworthy saying that deserves
(42:24):
full acceptance.
Whoever desires to be anoverseas desires a good thing,
and here is the sort of life andcharacter that somebody who
wants to be a leader in thechurch has.
They face their fears, theywork on their relationships,
they learn it.
Theology doesn't do that unlessit's applied deeply and what we
(42:48):
do is we normally work out ofsomebody's appropriate for
ministry if they can answer sometough theological questions.
We don't.
We don't wonder if they'rehumble, we don't wonder if
they're loving, we don't wonderif anger is coursing through
their veins as soon as they getopposition.
(43:09):
The next thing is can we stopthinking that what happens on a
Sunday is the total of God'shope, longing and purpose for
church, that there is somethingso much more to be had and it
will take ages and lifetimes toengage with that and undo some
(43:34):
of the things.
But we are called to be sodifferent and we just keep on
thinking that so many of thosethings are just optional extras
that we go with tick and we getair conditioning along with the
rest of our life because we'reChristians.
But church is not about being avolunteer, it's being a child,
(43:56):
a slave of Christ.
It's being about a life that ischanged from the inside out,
and so there's discipleshipthere as well, where we learn
how to.
We have conversations about howwe deal with our anger, why we
have addictions in our life, whywe don't want to be hospitable,
(44:18):
and that's the glory of thechurch Outside that, thank you
Did, you want to add anythingTessa On a.
Kathy Thurston (44:35):
I think the denomination level.
What we are trying to establishin the system in Queensland is
surround clergy and theirfamilies with support and that
should be just.
(44:56):
And I'm not saying support isnot needed for others
incongruations Of course it is.
But I think a denomination roleis to be able to support their
clergy in order for them tocontinue to minister in a
healthy way and persevere forthe long term is what we want to
(45:17):
see.
So yeah, having caring,supportive structures that they
can depend on where we arebuilding spiritual resilience
and where we are supporting themin crisis, so having a network
(45:39):
of things where that is justassumed as the norm.
Valerie Ling (45:44):
Yeah, so much.
It takes less off you when youknow you've got a safety net
under you you take more risks.
Kathy Thurston (45:51):
Yeah, and a safe relationship where they are
known and they are encouraged tocall for help when they need it
.
So that again comes back tothat knowing self and being
willing to admit I need help andasking for it and it being
there for you when you need it.
Valerie Ling (46:11):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, david andKathy Thurston.
This has been so encouraging,and I've yet to do this on the
podcast, but I was wondering ifyou'd close us in prayer so that
those listening in with usmight be able to join us as well
.
Would you do that?
David Thurston (46:27):
Yeah, Our gracious Father, we want to
thank you that we have theprivilege of calling you our
Abba, our Father, and that'sbecause of your grace and truth
embodied in your Son, our LordJesus Christ, and we thank you
that it's only by the Spirit ofSonship that we can do that and
(46:50):
that you invite us into yourfamily and we are rich in
relationships and rich in aplace where we can learn what it
means to be human and thedifficult job of loving others
who are different to us, andlearning to exercise patience
and kindness and love andself-control and be dependent on
(47:13):
your spirit for that.
Father, you love your peopleand your church much more than
we do, but we pray that you willbring renewal and new life
through and in your people, thatyour people will be like salt
in the world and will be likelight shining out in the
(47:38):
darkness and many, many morepeople will be drawn to know and
to love the Lord Jesus.
We ask this for your sake, amen, amen, amen.
Valerie Ling (47:52):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Welcome to another episode ofthe clergy well-being Down Under
podcast.
I have David and Kathy Thurstonwith me.
Welcome, thank you.
I'll let you introduceyourselves.
David Thurston (00:49):
My name is David and Kathy and I have been
married for 41 years.
We have been doing ministrytogether for nearly 40 years, so
it's been a partnership ofconsiderable length.
Kathy Thurston (01:06):
Yeah, so we've loved a long time in pastoral
ministry and we've, during thattime, had a lot of theological
students come through ourchurches which we've loved
spending time with, and that'sled to what we're doing now and
what are you doing now?
Well, we have a mentoringministry, so we now live in
(01:27):
Blackheath and we've taken thatfrom a non-nominational role now
into private role and we stillwork for the presides in
Queensland.
David Thurston (01:39):
So look, can I just say we have three children
as well, and if they ever sawthis they'd be probably offended
if we did that Three grown upchildren, very mature children.
So what we're doing is we'reinvolved in training people, in
mentoring, so we do that,constructing a course for post
(02:01):
college, being involved inbringing about some consultancy
training for churches up inQueensland.
So we're doing that sort ofmaterial and hopefully we can
pass that on.
That's our aim in the next fewyears and then we'll sort of
finish up with that sort of work.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (02:22):
And how would you define mentoring?
David Thurston (02:25):
Well, that's a very good question, isn't it?
That's, yeah, you can die athousand times on that one.
Well, look.
So for me, in terms ofmentoring people in ministry, I
combine a bit of coaching andmentoring, and when I'm doing
the coaching, which tends to bein skills, I try and bring that
(02:46):
into.
How does that shape?
How's that shaped by yourspirituality, by your work with
Christ?
And then when I'm talking aboutthe relationship with Christ
and maturity there, I want totry and bring it into the skills
.
So it sort of combines thespiritual development and health
with the skills in ministry aswell, and that's, from my
(03:07):
perspective, what I do.
Valerie Ling (03:09):
Yeah, and so I'm really catching you.
We're recording from.
You're about to do a workshopat the Oxygen conference.
What is your workshop?
Called Cassie.
Kathy Thurston (03:20):
Okay, so it's about the importance of
emotional awareness in spiritualmaturity.
So that's something that we arenot experts in, but have found
through our own life story howimportant that's been for us to
grow in our relationship withGod, to understand what God has
(03:44):
been wanting to teach us aboutourselves through the various
ups and downs of our lives andour ministry.
And he invites us into thatspace.
Where are we going to thinkabout that more deeply and have
that shape, how we see God, howwe understand our relationship
(04:07):
with him, and that's, for me,that is critical to us growing
up in Christ.
And so that invitation iseveryone has Christ is when you
have them, are you going toenter into what God wants to do
through that?
Valerie Ling (04:23):
emotional awareness like do you have a
working definition for God orhow do you conceptualize that?
Kathy Thurston (04:30):
We start with Daniel Goldman's stuff on ESI
emotional and socialintelligence.
So he's talking aboutself-awareness and
self-regulation and then hetalks about being socially aware
of others and then being ableto manage others.
So that's just a place to startgetting familiar with the
(04:50):
emotions that we feel and usingthem as a helpful guide to what
is going on inside of us.
David Thurston (05:02):
No, I think Kath covered it pretty well.
So I think, for guys especially, it's not that we don't have
emotions, it's that we tend notto be able to name them and be
able to describe them.
And if you can't do that, it'svery hard to regulate them.
It's very hard then tounderstand where they're pushing
(05:26):
you to, and then it'sincredibly hard, if you're a
leader of a Christian group, tohelp the group to regulate their
emotions as well and be healthy.
So the Bible's full of emotionsand it's full of suggestions
that we need to not let ouremotions run away with us, but
(05:48):
to bring them under the controlof Jesus so that we might be
able to lead well and be healthyin all of our relationships.
Valerie Ling (05:57):
For 40 years in ministry.
Was there something that youlearnt that you were quite
intentional about reflecting onwhen you started ministry?
Kathy Thurston (06:11):
No avoidance would have been my default
position, and I think I avoideduntil I could not avoid anymore.
David Thurston (06:22):
So yeah.
Kathy Thurston (06:24):
I think God was probably yelling at me through
Dave, through others, throughthings that happened to us, and
I was very keen to ignore thatfor many years.
David Thurston (06:38):
Our families do conflict very differently, so my
family does cold war extremelywell.
So basically, the way we dealtwith conflict was we ignored it
and I do, my family does hot war.
Absolutely everybody knows thelaunch codes and they're willing
to press them, and so you canimagine.
(06:59):
For us, when we first gotmarried, just the differences in
our families meant that I'mreversing, sort of I've got the
big, big, big of the truckbacking up very quickly and cats
advancing not wondering what'swrong with me being able to
engage.
We had to learn how to engagewith differences because there
(07:21):
were so many differences and theway we handled them it wasn't
the healthiest way.
So I call marriage thedifficult, delightful discipline
of marriage.
It can be delightful.
It's always going to be achallenge, but it's a
discipleship that you'reinvolved in and we were not
(07:42):
doing too well early on.
Valerie Ling (07:43):
I can imagine, though, Cathy, if you're
advancing, you must be feelingthings.
So when you're saying that youavoided your emotions when you
were pursuing the conflict, wereyou aware of things that you
felt like you mean sort of justnot aware and then processing
that emotion.
Kathy Thurston (08:02):
Well, it's just, it's about controlling my
things, so they control me.
So anger is my primary emotionand so it's not very helpful
when you pursue someone angryand are out of control with that
.
Valerie Ling (08:18):
And so how did you get to the point where you've
got this idea, a concept we'vegot to work on being more aware?
How did that come about?
David Thurston (08:33):
Do you want to start that?
Look, I think things had to getreally bad before they got
better.
And when our children becometeenagers, some of the patterns
of the way that we related nolonger worked.
And it was a tough time.
(09:01):
We loved each other, we werecommitted to the marriage, but I
don't know if we liked eachother very much at times and it
ended up with one of ourchildren leaving home and that
that was really a trigger, forwe actually need to do something
(09:24):
about this.
Because, you know, I was sayingI didn't want.
I didn't want this to happenanymore, and Kathy wanted to
happen anymore either.
But we're just locked as afamily into a way of behaving.
So we decided to get somecounselling.
(09:44):
We eventually ended up withsome family systems counselling,
which I was really happy with.
The first counseling we went tobecause the lady just wanted to
work with Kathy and I thoughtthat was terrific.
I love that idea.
But you can't do that withfamily counselling.
And all of a sudden, mypassivity came out in terms of
(10:07):
part of the problem, in terms ofwe were related.
So it we went and got help andwe were committed to getting the
help because we were committedto our marriage and we're
committed to being betterparents.
Yeah, so that's what we did,and we started learning about
(10:29):
those sorts of things andstarted I started getting
mentoring and we started seeingthat there was ways of behavior
and there were skills that youcould learn, that God could use
to bring about real change.
Yeah, so that's what happened.
Kathy Thurston (10:45):
Yeah, I think that it started with changes in
our marriage and in our family.
But what was really clear to mewas that what's that behind
that?
That was just a flaw in the wayI related to God.
And so this is where this wehave this choice to face things
(11:11):
because from that we're going toactually grow deep in our
relationship with God if we'rewilling to take on that hard
work.
And so my relating to him wasyou know, I was Christian.
I'd become a Christian when Iwas 15.
But it was very transactional,so there were expectations I had
of God that if I fulfilled mypart of the bargain, then it was
(11:38):
his job to give me what Iwanted and said needed yeah.
So from doing this work here,it changes our relationship with
God and then it changes the waywe do church actually so there
was that flow on to what you saw.
(12:02):
Your role is how you wanted to,the sense of what you wanted
church to be and how you weregoing to lead.
So, that was.
You know it's always flow on.
That comes from that.
That's really important.
Valerie Ling (12:16):
Yeah, I'd love to know what that tangibly looked
like, that transformation thatyou went within yourself in your
marriage, flowing on to yourleading church.
David Thurston (12:28):
Probably the most significant.
So basically we were involvedin a church plant in the early
90s and God bless that in a lotof ways.
And then it went horribly wrongand I burned it out and I had
(12:50):
four months off and I justthought.
Then I went and found anotherjob, so I don't have time to go
into all that.
I didn't think we would everchurch plant again.
So we got to do my national jobfor three years and then
something happened.
I thought I'd really like to dochurch planning again.
(13:10):
So we went to plant CentralSydney.
But what I did was I said thistime what happened before will
never happen again.
So I'm going to fill, proofthis, but I'm a pretty big fill
so I can manage to stuff thingsup.
So I made all of the objectives, all of the values which nobody
(13:32):
else had any input into.
It implied that what I got donefor previously couldn't happen
again.
And after about two years ofdoing church again, I was asking
really basically basicquestions like what is church,
(13:54):
what is ministry?
Even what am I doing when Ipreach and I read some museum
papers and under theunpredictable plant which I
really loved but it's sort ofjust mucked around with all of
that, and so two things sort ofhappened as a result of that.
One is I threw out the big sortof goals, objectives thing and I
(14:21):
said we're going to need towork this out ourselves as a
church.
So I sort of relinquished whatwas my protection and a fair bit
later what we did was we wentthrough that whole process again
and we went through a processwhere I did a draft of a lot of
(14:42):
those things and then there area number of people who would
have the power to redraft thatand that was going to be the
churches, and I was out ofcontrol.
And that was one of thosethings where I thought right,
this is where this is God'schurch, this is not my church,
(15:03):
and I think that that created apretty big shift in things.
But when you go through thissort of stuff, the way you
preach becomes different as well, and what you see in the
scriptures becomes different.
So there's a lot of changesthat went on just in
relationships and how we handledwhat you get upset about and
(15:25):
what you don't.
Valerie Ling (15:28):
That's a caveat.
As you're going through thisprocess, then, with a deeper
understanding of self and youremotions and being your marriage
, was that different for you aswell?
Kathy Thurston (15:37):
Well, I was a long way behind here so, but I
sort of caught up andinterestingly I would for me.
I just remember the acceptance,that of what was important in
(15:58):
my relationship with God andthat just it means you let go of
the control thing is a reallybig thing for me.
I would say so, what I wasdemanding of God, that wasn't
turning out how I wanted yougive up on that because it's not
important.
(16:19):
So, Philippians 3 has beenreally important for me and just
that.
Where Paul is desire is to knowChrist, everything else is
stripped away of the things hebrings, and I just remember the
freedom found in that.
For me, that's all that Godwanted me to do is to commit
(16:42):
myself to knowing him more andthen being his person in
whatever way that I was, andthat was a very different
attitude to for me in parish andstill relating to people, and
(17:05):
you know it came from adifferent attitude to writing to
the kids.
David Thurston (17:09):
And it impacted our relationship with our kids
enormously.
So, yeah, there's a lot offractures that just took time in
a different way of behaving andtrusting God in that and the
estrangement was mended and wehave a good relationship with
(17:31):
our kids now.
Kathy Thurston (17:33):
So realising God's.
I had a, just a commitment tohim shaping me to be the person
that he saved me to be, and thatis about my personality, it's
about my family origin, it'sabout the experiences he's given
(17:53):
me, and yet he knows me and hasa role for me to play, and
that's really, really importantfor me now in my role in
ministry, and I find that reallyexciting.
But it means that, yeah,accepting that we are just God's
(18:15):
people and that's OK.
I don't have to have all theanswers.
I don't have to.
You know, I don't have to beperfect, neither does anybody
else.
And, yeah, that was a realchange for me in both my
relationship with God and others.
David Thurston (18:33):
Yeah, I'd say there's a number of things that
I look at current church cultureand ministry culture.
I would say that one of thethings that changed was I didn't
have a sense of urgency.
This is God's Kingdom, it'sGod's church.
(18:53):
Now.
I'm 65 now.
So when you're 65, you've gotto go OK.
So if something big is going tohappen, it's probably not going
to happen now and I'm not goingto be playing football for
Australia.
(19:13):
That's pretty clear by now.
But God's Kingdom is so muchbigger and the things that along
for in terms of a healthychurch, healthy ministry, that's
going to be generational work.
But what we can do and whatwe're wanting to do is to invest
in people.
(19:34):
Who will invest in people?
Who will invest in people andit may well be two, three
generations and what we will seefrom our heavenly perspective
is a wonderfully healthy church,healthier than what we have,
that we've contributed to.
(19:56):
But we will never be able tosee on this earth now what that
will look like.
But we're investing in thefuture.
Valerie Ling (20:06):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:28):
And so one of the things thatmy survey found was that burnout
was related to levels of it'salmost like emotional
suppression, like we've got toput on a particular facade.
You know it's a very similarthing that you find with
customer service staff likealways look happy, all the stuff
(20:51):
that's going on in your hair,just kind of buried.
That was related to burnout andclergy you surprised do you
find this as well.
David Thurston (21:02):
No, no, and I think that's because it's a
suppression about humanity.
Yeah, so God's made us.
You know, we are flesh andspirit, so we sit between the
animals who are flesh and theangels who are spirit, and we
are the image of God.
So we've been made and ourbodies are fundamental to that,
(21:26):
and so our humanity is anexpression of how we learn to
mirror God and God has.
God is a God who loves, and Godis a God who is indignant and
angry at sin, a God who isgracious and merciful, all of
(21:50):
those things.
But if we're suppressing, soyeah, if we're suppressing after
the fall and we're justgritting our teeth, we're not
learned, we're not grown, we'renot receiving grace.
Where faking it till we'remaking it is should never be on
the lips of a Christian.
(22:11):
I think you know repentance,forgiveness will be a good thing
.
Being curious as to why I doand feel the way I do and where
that comes from, that would begreat.
But I think suppressing,ignoring, is just going to mean
(22:31):
you get tighter and tighter andtighter and somewhere that just
busts and you don't learnanything.
You do on the other side, ifyou allow God to teach you
something.
Valerie Ling (22:43):
Well, that was the other thing that we found was
that lower levels of selfinsight were related to that
sort of suppression and alsoburnout.
But how do you practically dothat?
Because if you're needing achurch and someone's really
giving you know, it is reallytelling you some things that are
causing you to feel some things.
(23:04):
You know, in my job I would usethis phrase of going when I
hear you say that I've noticedthat I feel this and therefore I
think we need to do this Now.
I don't know that that goesdown so well.
It just what does it?
David Thurston (23:22):
Well, I haven't done that.
That says I have a very goodphrase.
Kathy Thurston (23:26):
I was going to say.
I feel like we've ended up witha culture like you described,
in terms of people putting on afacade.
We've ended up with that sortof culture with leaders because
we've created that.
So we have had expectations ofour leaders to be certain sorts
of people and we've wanted themto be that.
(23:48):
So we've actually encouragedthem to, even if they weren't
that, to pretend that they were.
So, if we're going to break thatdown.
Actually, we talked about thisthis morning asking open
questions where we really wantto hear about people and their
(24:10):
lives and whatever, and givinghonest answers, because that is
the way to break that sort ofthing down, and people in
leadership need to be thoughtfulabout how they do that.
For sure, because there's notappropriate places or people to
share your deepest things with,but there is lots of room in
(24:31):
between for honesty.
Valerie Ling (24:34):
So it's almost like building up some relational
and trust capital when we'rehaving these sorts of
conversations, so that when wedo have to have hard
conversations and express hardfeelings or process hard
feelings, we're not startingfrom ground zero.
Is that?
David Thurston (24:48):
sort of yeah, yeah, and part of that is in a
church is a leader has to modelthat.
So ministry is much more thanjust teaching accurately and if
that's all it was, ministry is avery expensive way of doing
that and you probably could justbuy a lot of tinder cometaries
and give it to everybody andthey can read that on a weekend.
(25:11):
But if you're going to dosomething different, then the
relationship is fundamental tothat and part of that is
allowing people to see howemotions and life and trouble
and suffering and joy anddelight are being expressed in
(25:33):
your life and in your marriage.
And all of that Paul says youknow.
He says, imitate me over andover again, paul, of everybody
in the first century, we knowmore about his inner life than
anybody else in the firstcentury and I think that's the
(25:54):
model.
Now I don't think we have topour out every bit of trouble,
but people have to know what itmeans to be human, what it is to
have emotions, the struggle ofactually controlling them, the
joy and the progress.
And Paul says Timothy, letspeople see your progress.
(26:17):
And that takes time.
That's the other thing.
Kathy Thurston (26:21):
Urgency get rid of urgency, it takes time and
the church is the perfect placeto be doing that if you, if it's
, you have a time yes, and youhave these specific group of
relationships that you can bebuilding on week by week.
Valerie Ling (26:40):
So I mean, it's just a church is a wonderful
community where you can beexploring that with one another.
I've noticed as I've returnedto a little bit of clinical work
after the sabbatical, is thatafter the pandemic and ministers
diaries are so packed and hetasks that are flipping on one
(27:03):
another so they could be meetingwith, you know, an entity like
a group, and then having staffmeeting and then going to do a
visitation and then short dinnerand then they're out for youth
group again.
I'm just noticing how packed itis.
There's another lot of space.
Well, as you said, time or yeah, space silence, solitude.
David Thurston (27:25):
So why do you?
Kathy Thurston (27:26):
think that is.
I'd love to explore.
Why have we gone back to thatpost COVID?
When was it were those people'sdiaries always like that?
Because I mean, obviously Ithink church is a suffering from
both people not returning tochurch but also not returning to
(27:48):
service in church.
So, um, um, voluntary servingand that sort of thing.
So clergy feeling like theyneed to fill the gaps in those
sorts of things.
Uh yeah, I think that's a greatquestion.
Valerie Ling (28:02):
I think that's a great question and probably even
the way that we could use ouremotions is to is to actually
ask ourselves it.
So I'll use myself as anexample.
I've similarly caught up in Icall it post pandemic plug.
But we've just packed on allthis stuff to survive through
those difficult times and, youknow, I'm feeling incompetent
(28:24):
because I can't keep up with allthose things anymore.
I'm feeling more and more alonebecause all of those compliance
things I can't share with myteam yeah, my sole
responsibility, or it feels likethat.
And then you, you start toreally feel that the mode, the
negative self-emotions, right,you feel ashamed, you feel like
a failure to be disappointingpeople.
David Thurston (28:57):
that's the point .
Do you think if you allowedyourself the space, you might
actually get the negativeemotions coming up?
But if we keep on being busy,maybe they won't yeah so it's
suppressing those, and but wheredid I go, well?
Well, I don't get less.
Kathy Thurston (29:17):
It just, it just ferments unhelpfully below the
surface until something happens,and then it's whoosh, yeah, and
that's burnout so, in order toprocess those things, you need
to allow time for those, and youalso need more reflective life
(29:37):
and you know, we keep saying toour kids you know, if you never
stop to think about what's goingon for you, you're actually
never going to get any answersor any change.
Valerie Ling (29:46):
Yeah, I think we also need safe relationships
because, you know, emotionsaren't something that you just
feel on your own, it's also inour interactions with one
another.
So one of the things the surveyfound was that, potentially,
the level of conflict that umministers are facing um,
particularly if they're solo ordoing a lot of things by
(30:06):
themselves, it's not always safeto allow those emotions to come
up, or you may not have what.
What are your thoughts on that?
What are your I reckon,ministries.
David Thurston (30:16):
So I've been doing ministry and I was a solo
minister in the country since1985.
Ministry back then wasincredibly simple compared to
what it is well.
What I mean by that is therewasn't all the compliance stuff
(30:37):
to start off with.
I mean, that's just gettingmore and more and more.
The expectations oncongregations weren't enough,
weren't enormous.
You know, if you've preachedand you visited, that was you're
doing well.
And then we got personalcomputers and we started to
desktop publishing and so all ofa sudden there's all of this
(30:58):
stuff that that gets added on tothat.
But there's also, there's alsoa certain competitive spirit
that's going on in churches,church to church, and I think
that's really unhealthy.
Um, uh, we, we, we have such aconsumer society and so
(31:21):
ministers somehow been drawninto this thing of performance
and there's there's no space forfeeling depressed or anxious.
Valerie Ling (31:35):
I mean, that's that's for the week so it
becomes in and of itself aperformance measure it does,
yeah, and so that's reallyunhealthy.
David Thurston (31:44):
Um, and you're right, I think, having having
really good friends whounderstand the pressures of
ministry and frequently it'sonly other ministers who really
do understand that, or you know,clergy wives or something like
that, and that's why I think thespiritual renewal groups are so
(32:05):
important um, there's a levelof being able to share with
other people who know what it'slike, and then there is a level
of accountability, but it'shealthier accountability and
(32:26):
there's a degree of support it'snot complete sort of support,
but it would be one of thethings I would say that is
really important for goodself-care and health.
But outside of that, you wantother friends.
You can talk to them, just ringup on the phone and say I'm
having a dog of a day, yeah,yeah.
Valerie Ling (32:47):
So sneak peek here .
You're going off to yourworkshop very soon, so you do
need to learn about that.
You know, essentially what areyou going to share about
emotional awareness and whatwill be the takeaways from
today's workshop.
Kathy Thurston (33:01):
I think it's where I started that.
So we've heard a lot of storiesthis week about the different
trajectories for people'sministry that God has
interrupted and has thenprovided a challenge about.
Am I just going to scramble toget back to where I was, or is
(33:24):
there something new that God iswanting me to learn about myself
?
And so the big takeaway, I hope, is that in that moment, what
are you going to do with thatopportunity?
And to take time to explore it,the emotions of it, where it's
come from, who am I in that andwhy am I that person?
(33:48):
So, background and personalitystuff, but what is it wanting?
What is God wanting to teach usabout himself and our
relationship with him?
Because that is the thing thathe's going to lead to spiritual
maturity, and that's what weneed for our field.
(34:08):
Can I read a lot of commentariesand do a couple of personality
tests, because everybody'scrisis and the way they come to
it is going to be personal, it'sgoing to be different, and it
requires you, before God, tounderstand that and to work on
it.
So it actually takes, then, awhole change of your life to
(34:32):
take that on and to continue toexplore it.
David Thurston (34:37):
So one of the things that will get people to
do is to think about whatemotions they're experiencing,
being able to identify them andwhat, but the thing is, where do
they come from?
What do those emotions push meto do?
So what's my reactivity interms of that?
So think about the situationwhere that emotion arose.
(35:01):
Where is it pushing you to stop?
Is that what God wants you todo?
What's unhealthy about that?
How do you respond to thatemotion?
And to do it in a way that'sChrist-like, christ-dependent,
and begin a differentconversation with people.
Valerie Ling (35:23):
Or maybe yourself.
David Thurston (35:25):
But you've got to be quite self-reflective and
create space.
You cannot microwave maturity.
What that on a t-shirt?
It's slow cooking.
Maturity is long, takes timeand you go forward, you fall
back and it's okay.
(35:47):
God's got us, he surrounds uswith His love and he has no
expectation that we read a bookand within a month we've nailed
it.
Valerie Ling (36:00):
So true, so true.
David Thurston (36:04):
So the cross gives us a place to stand where
we can do some of the mostunsafe places, unsafe things,
and that means to look into ourheart and our life and see how
God wants to bring aboutChrist-like change within us, so
that we love Him more and welove those around us.
Valerie Ling (36:24):
So I've got some final questions.
If there was a pastor, or evena pastor's wife or sometimes
they're also single but someonewho's a leader in ministry and
they've just tuned in andthey've listened into our
conversation, what's one thingyou'd like them to walk away
with?
To either think or do.
David Thurston (36:47):
Face God honestly about themselves and
start exploring what that meansI'd say something very similar
and I'll put it this way Toactually sit down and be quiet.
(37:08):
So the problem when we haven'tpracticed silence and silence
isn't just a matter of doinglala, lala or alms in our head
or something like that, but it'sbeing God's presence.
When we first do that.
We don't like doing it becauseall the crap comes up and that's
part of the reason why we do it.
(37:29):
This is the way we identify thecrap.
We feel bad about this.
We haven't done this.
We're out of control.
It's paying attention to that,writing it down and then asking
God to make sense of the messand being able to sit with that
long enough to allow scriptureto start speaking to us and
(37:53):
talking to friends and talkingto mentors.
Kathy Thurston (37:58):
And putting the support people around you to
help you do that that wordbefore God.
Valerie Ling (38:06):
Now there are some churches that have actually
subscribed to the podcast.
They've got their elders tosubscribe or the puzzle care
committees to subscribe, ifthere was such a group listening
to us today a church who'sreally looking to see how they
can care for their leaders.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with from our
conversation?
David Thurston (38:27):
I would say.
One as a minister, you don'thave to ask permission to be
healthy.
Two a church that isspiritually healthy is an
incredibly rare thing and thatwould be a light shining in the
(38:47):
darkness, and that would be acommunity who understood how
they felt.
So this is the work of a church.
It might start with the pastor,it might start with some else
and it should, it should startwith the leaders, but if it
grows into being a church, thewitness of that will make
(39:08):
evangelism very easy, becausepeople are just becoming it and
say what is it that you've gotgoing on in your life?
We want to be like you, andthey might not like the answer,
but that's getting back a littlebit to what the New Testament
was like being ready to give areason for the hope that lies
(39:30):
within you, because there's achurch that's operating out of a
different space, out of a spaceof the love of God that allows
people to be transformed.
Kathy Thurston (39:43):
Yeah, I think I would say to them develop a real
relationship with your minister.
You're on the same side.
You are a team working togetherto lead a church.
You are not opposed to oneanother.
So you need to get to know oneanother, and in a real
(40:05):
relationship.
So that requires time andlistening to one another's
stories and finding out fromeach other what we need in order
to grow more healthy in Christ.
David Thurston (40:16):
So when do we start using the word volunteers
for brothers and sisters inChrist?
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Interesting.
David Thurston (40:22):
So if the pastoring is transactional
rather than volatial, there'ssomething wrong.
We can't love peopletransactionally.
So what does that mean?
That how church has to change.
Valerie Ling (40:43):
Yeah, and the final question is at a policy or
denominational or even, youknow, rather college level?
You know it could be one thingyou want sort of at the policy
level.
You know there's one thing youcould say.
David Thurston (41:03):
Do you want to go?
Kathy Thurston (41:04):
first, lots, lots of things at each of those
levels I'm excited.
Valerie Ling (41:09):
This is the one question that usually stops.
Kathy Thurston (41:13):
Well, you want to talk about college first or
no, well, okay.
David Thurston (41:20):
So I had a good friend who was part of our
church and is in the collegeelectric college.
He asked me to.
He said, as people leavecollege, what do they need to
know?
What three things do they needto know?
I said one.
(41:42):
They need to know what Paulknew in one Timothy one, that
Jesus Christ came into the worldas a sinner and the chief.
(42:03):
There is such a sense of graceand love and humility that Paul
understands that he saved.
We can't do anything butminister out of that.
The second thing is here is atrustworthy saying that deserves
(42:24):
full acceptance.
Whoever desires to be anoverseas desires a good thing,
and here is the sort of life andcharacter that somebody who
wants to be a leader in thechurch has.
They face their fears, theywork on their relationships,
they learn it.
Theology doesn't do that unlessit's applied deeply and what we
(42:48):
do is we normally work out ofsomebody's appropriate for
ministry if they can answer sometough theological questions.
We don't.
We don't wonder if they'rehumble, we don't wonder if
they're loving, we don't wonderif anger is coursing through
their veins as soon as they getopposition.
(43:09):
The next thing is can we stopthinking that what happens on a
Sunday is the total of God'shope, longing and purpose for
church, that there is somethingso much more to be had and it
will take ages and lifetimes toengage with that and undo some
(43:34):
of the things.
But we are called to be sodifferent and we just keep on
thinking that so many of thosethings are just optional extras
that we go with tick and we getair conditioning along with the
rest of our life because we'reChristians.
But church is not about being avolunteer, it's being a child,
(43:56):
a slave of Christ.
It's being about a life that ischanged from the inside out,
and so there's discipleshipthere as well, where we learn
how to.
We have conversations about howwe deal with our anger, why we
have addictions in our life, whywe don't want to be hospitable,
(44:18):
and that's the glory of thechurch Outside that, thank you
Did, you want to add anythingTessa On a.
Kathy Thurston (44:35):
I think the denomination level.
What we are trying to establishin the system in Queensland is
surround clergy and theirfamilies with support and that
should be just.
(44:56):
And I'm not saying support isnot needed for others
incongruations Of course it is.
But I think a denomination roleis to be able to support their
clergy in order for them tocontinue to minister in a
healthy way and persevere forthe long term is what we want to
(45:17):
see.
So yeah, having caring,supportive structures that they
can depend on where we arebuilding spiritual resilience
and where we are supporting themin crisis, so having a network
(45:39):
of things where that is justassumed as the norm.
Valerie Ling (45:44):
Yeah, so much.
It takes less off you when youknow you've got a safety net
under you you take more risks.
Kathy Thurston (45:51):
Yeah, and a safe relationship where they are
known and they are encouraged tocall for help when they need it
.
So that again comes back tothat knowing self and being
willing to admit I need help andasking for it and it being
there for you when you need it.
Valerie Ling (46:11):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, david andKathy Thurston.
This has been so encouraging,and I've yet to do this on the
podcast, but I was wondering ifyou'd close us in prayer so that
those listening in with usmight be able to join us as well
.
Would you do that?
David Thurston (46:27):
Yeah, Our gracious Father, we want to
thank you that we have theprivilege of calling you our
Abba, our Father, and that'sbecause of your grace and truth
embodied in your Son, our LordJesus Christ, and we thank you
that it's only by the Spirit ofSonship that we can do that and
(46:50):
that you invite us into yourfamily and we are rich in
relationships and rich in aplace where we can learn what it
means to be human and thedifficult job of loving others
who are different to us, andlearning to exercise patience
and kindness and love andself-control and be dependent on
(47:13):
your spirit for that.
Father, you love your peopleand your church much more than
we do, but we pray that you willbring renewal and new life
through and in your people, thatyour people will be like salt
in the world and will be likelight shining out in the
(47:38):
darkness and many, many morepeople will be drawn to know and
to love the Lord Jesus.
We ask this for your sake, amen, amen, amen.
Valerie Ling (47:52):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
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