November 22, 2023 • 54 mins
As our season draws to a close, I began to contemplate leadership in a wider context, beyond just Australia and parish settings, I was drawn to explore international issues of leadership in gospel work.
Marion Knell is a seasoned cross-cultural consultant and trainer with an extensive history spanning nearly three decades. Her expertise stretches across a multitude of sectors, but at its core, Marion's passion lies in fostering resilience and longevity in the lives of cross-cultural workers and their families.
Having worked extensively with families overseas, Marion has garnered a wealth of experience and understanding in preparing adults and children for international assignments. This preparation is not just about the outward journey but also assisting them in their return, ensuring a smooth transition and debriefing experience.
Currently, Marion's work involves delivering training to refugee workers in areas of trauma response, the cultural nuances of dislocation, and overall staff care.
Marion is also the author of Burn Up Splash Down and Families On The Move. She has also been instrumental in establishing the MA in Member Care with Redcliffe College.
In this episode, Marion discusses the complex role of church leadership, burnout and the impact on pastors' children.
If you are a pastor and want to reach our for professional supervision, or counselling for yourself and/or your family, send me an email: valerie@effectiveserving.com.au
Download my research report and reflections
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Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome, friends, to anotherepisode.
I've got here with me Mary andNell.
Welcome Mary.
Marion Knell (00:42):
Thank you very much, Valerie.
It's good to be with you.
Valerie Ling (00:45):
As of this moment when we are recording, you are
actually in the UK.
Marion Knell (00:50):
I am.
I'm in North London on a rathergrey day, but that's kind of
been symptomatic of the summerin the UK this year.
Valerie Ling (00:59):
Now, mary, I know you from Global Mission Member
Care and particularly in theyears when I was looking for
material on kids in mission, andso two of your books are on our
bookshelf.
In the practice, as I saycompulsory reading, I want to
(01:20):
give children a transition, butI'd love for you to introduce
yourself, because you've done somuch.
But I'd love for you tointroduce yourself.
Marion Knell (01:30):
Thank you so much.
So I've actually been toAustralia now four times, so
that kind of marked something.
And I did a seminar in Perthonce on well-being, member care
for leaders.
I've got a little bit of linkin there.
My background is I'm a teacherbut for many years I've been
(01:51):
involved in missionsparticularly so my husband and I
were there at World Ministriesso through that really became
involved in missionary kids andfamilies issues, because that
was big, taking families intothe Muslim world and out of that
came families on the move whichlooked at the dynamics of
(02:15):
taking a family overseas.
And then the second book isabout reentry for adults and
teens and through that becameinvolved in the wider area of
well-being or member care andstarted sounding the masters in
member care at Radcliffe Collegeto give some academic rigor to
what we were talking about, andfrom there have saved into
(02:40):
working with refugee workers.
The head of the refugee highwaypartnership said to me about 10
years ago Mary and member caremust have something to say to
refugee area because workers areburning out like there's no
tomorrow.
So that's been an interestingjourney, especially since now
(03:01):
we've been looking after 400Afghans in a hotel in our town.
So it's really kind of rightdown to the nitty gritty of that
sort of ministry.
So yeah, it's been a goodjourney, varied, which I like.
Valerie Ling (03:17):
And hasn't finished.
You were just talking about allthe different places.
Marion Knell (03:22):
Yeah, so I was in.
I did some stuff with the WorldWithout Orphans, their
conference in Bulgaria, naplesfor Refugees, and then at the
end of September I'm going toMoldova to do something with
teens out from Eastern Europe onstress, compassion, fatigue and
burnout, having been for threeyears running to Ukraine some
(03:46):
years ago.
Homo Sovieticus is alive andwell and the concept of self
care or anything like that isjust not in that culture.
So we're having to come at itfrom a different angle really.
Valerie Ling (04:01):
I mean, you've been working in mission, and
certainly in the internationalscene, for for a long time.
What do you make of the currentspeak about burnout and self
care and the stress?
What do you make of that?
Is it always been around?
Marion Knell (04:19):
I think it's been around.
It hasn't been talked aboutbecause you weren't allowed to.
There was very much a link, Ithink.
If you go back some yearsbetween calling and sacrifice,
god's call me.
So I'm a sacrifice, everything,and that included my family.
And if you dare raise a commentabout the demands being made on
(04:42):
you, then you quickly slappeddown, particularly for
organizations.
Organizations toleratedincredible rates.
I remember, about 20 years ago,one leader saying to me well,
everybody knows that personally,my job burns out.
Nice fact and accepted fact.
So I think what we've done isthe floodgates haven't given
(05:05):
people permission to to be selfaware and to be vulnerable,
because, as a leader, you werenot to be vulnerable.
That was the last thing youwere to be.
You were the strength, strength, the pillar.
So I think, in a healthy way,we're exploring it.
Valerie Ling (05:24):
And so let's say, in the times when we weren't a
lot, and I think it's stillthere, when we don't, how does
it appear on one of the signsand symptoms?
You know what?
What are the consequences if weaccept that burnout is part of
serving?
Marion Knell (05:41):
I think one of the major consequences that we
damage the people we serve,people in burnout are usually
the emotions are shut down, theability to empathize, all of
that sort of things got gone.
So when we're teaching, weteach the foot.
We don't want to do it now, butthe full stages of burnout and
making people aware of that,particularly in teams.
(06:02):
I think that's what we'veconcentrated on.
Whether it's a pastoral team ora church team or a mission team
, if the team is aware of theimpact of stress leading to
burnout, then they can watch outfor each other and I think
that's really important.
You know, because we're so,particularly in the worst, such
(06:23):
an individualistic society thatI'm responsible for me, you know
, whereas this whole, you knowthe Galatians, bear your own
burden.
That's a little rucksack onyour back, whereas bearable and
others burdens is this 40 onthis heavy load which we're
supposed to share with others.
Valerie Ling (06:41):
I'm looking at some information you sent
through to me which I'm verykeen to ask you about in a
minute, but you mentioned thefour stages of burnout and it
really mirrors what I see in ourpractice.
So stay right, walk about anenergy shortage.
It's the exhaustion that comesup.
Yeah.
Marion Knell (07:02):
Yes, well, I was just going to say I think that's
where it's easy for people justto brush it aside.
I'm just tired, you know, butwe're not talking about just I'm
tired, but you know I'm spent,there's nothing left.
Valerie Ling (07:18):
And you've written here to me saying that there's
no satisfaction in the work orthe ministry and it can lead to
the sarcastic and verbalcontempt for others or the work
and ministry.
Marion Knell (07:31):
Yeah, and that's where it begins to impact the
team, which is why I say it'simportant the team can recognize
, because it's, I think it's adisillusionment, that's it that
sits in, and so you go throughthe motions without any joy or
return and then you very quicklyturn to being cynical, and that
(07:51):
then that's when it's deflectedupon the team.
Really.
Valerie Ling (07:54):
Yeah, Very similar to what we find in relationship
, marital relationship researchis.
Once it hits that level ofcontent, you know something's
really really bad in therelationship.
Yeah, yeah.
The stage yeah, you've got.
Then it becomes chronicsymptoms and this is where bad
(08:14):
behaviors can develop slowly orlast a long time and I'm really
interested in this through anarrowness of viewpoint and they
can be anger, a sense of notbeing appreciated, intense fear
of suspicion and a kind of adisorientation, even.
Yes.
Marion Knell (08:33):
I think because the worldview is now, everything
comes under scrutiny and underjudgment and therefore bad
behaviors can be the sort ofverbal bad behaviors.
But obviously people then startto turn to other ways of
satisfying their needs andthat's where you can get people
(08:57):
moving into unhealthy addictions, which come into that as well.
Valerie Ling (09:04):
That's certainly what we see clinically.
Marion, certainly see, that ispart of the pathway.
Addictions tends to be one ofthe key coping mechanisms, if
you like.
Yeah, so at stage three we'reinto crisis now a deep, abiding
negativity, a sense that thingscannot and will not change,
(09:25):
feeling trapped, no way out.
Marion Knell (09:31):
And I think by this time the person really is
not self aware.
But this is where you'regetting to the point of being in
danger of committing suicide.
We're into the really deepmental health issues.
And yet very often these peopleare also in denial.
So they just carry on in theministry.
(09:52):
And this is why I say it's soimportant that we look out for
each other, because they justcarry on and they become then
destructive of others becausethey can't empathize with their
whether you call them clients orthe people they're working with
within the ministry and that'swhen they start to do more
damage and more harm than good.
Valerie Ling (10:15):
Yeah, so at stage four, I think, as a clinical
psychologist, that's where wewere seeing a lot of the impact.
You call it the crash here inyour paper.
It's a Dutch hopelessness, andthat's where we see the
depression, the anxiety it eatsinto all the other aspects of
self and others.
I think it's not just about howyou feel about yourself in
(10:37):
ministry, but how you feel ofyourself in general.
Marion Knell (10:40):
Yes, and I think one of the problems with
Christian ministry and we're notjust talking about Christian,
we are talking about pastors aswell is that so for so many,
their identity is vested in therole.
So if you take the role away,who am I without the ministry?
And that's why people oftencling on long after they should
(11:01):
do because of that, yeah, that Ihave to fulfill this role.
Self expectations as well, ofcourse.
With pastors, the hugeexpectations of the congregation
that you'll do with unrealisticexpectations we might add.
Valerie Ling (11:19):
So one of the reasons why I started the work
that I do was in 2016,.
I gave my first everpresentation about this concept
of burnout in ministry and whenit had finished, a 30 something
year old individual came andpulled me and he said don't ever
forget the kids.
(11:39):
He said I'm a kid, I'm an adultministry kid.
As a group of us, we didn'tmake it.
He says when you're talkingabout these things, don't forget
the kids, and I know you have aheart for this as well.
What do you see of kids inministry, in mission, in general
, and then when these sorts ofstages of burnout sets in in the
(12:02):
family, yeah, and I think thisis something actually we've been
aware, certainly within themissions community and
subsequently in the in the past,some ministry for some time.
Marion Knell (12:14):
So there was a, a survey done in the UK in 2020
where they actually identifiedproblems with the family as
being significant in terms ofministers Saying 50 percent of
them were concerned about theimpact on their families.
(12:35):
And what we see with the kidsis what the message a lot of
kids have is my parents'ministry is more important than
I am.
One kid said to me I had toqueue up to tell my father I was
getting engaged.
I had to queue up witheverybody else.
So this the, the heresies theylearned.
(12:56):
Timothy Stanford wrote a bookcalled I have to Be Perfect.
He is, he's a, an MK, butwrites it really from the PK
response perspective MK, pk pastkids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean we put MKs together nowunder this banner TTCK.
So cut kids.
(13:16):
So past six kids don't have the, the complication of more
cultures, but they do have thesemessages sent I have to be
perfect.
Everybody views the pastorsfamily.
Everybody looks to see howthey're behaving in church.
People have talked about beingin a pastors family is a bit
(13:38):
like being in a goldfish bowl asa child.
You have no privacy.
People come to your home allthe time.
You have issues of trust.
Who can I trust?
Because if I tell my story, ifI say anything, it's going to be
out there.
Who can I trust to say what'scoming?
And some of the kids talk aboutbeing was feeling responsible
(14:01):
for their parents mid ministry.
I could ruin my dad's ministryso I have to be perfect again.
I remember one small child.
They were in Greece and she wasgoing to Greek school.
She was about eight and shereally wasn't coping and they
were going to have to take herout and put her to international
court and she said but if that,if that happens, you know the
Greeks won't hear about Jesus.
(14:23):
I'm not a year old, she shouldbe very.
She was about eight, you know.
So I think that feeling thatyou're, you're, you're really an
encumbrance on almost, you knowthat you come last in the list.
Other people's does the othermessage, other people's needs
(14:47):
are always more important thanmine.
I mean first of all owning that, believing it, but then seeing
that actually that's happeningin practice and surely that
shouldn't be.
What shouldn't I count?
Why don't I count?
I remember Marjorie Fowler youmay have heard of, who's done a
lot of stuff with ministry, well, well-being.
(15:07):
She said it's not families orministry, it's families in
ministry, that when we do thingsin our ministry we need to take
into account the whole family,and that involves, I think, in
decision making.
The older the kids get.
We look at the teens and veryoften you've had decisions made
(15:33):
of you in which you had no saybut which have profound effect.
I mean some some churches, theministers move every three years
or so.
Not every minister stays insitu for a long time and each
time, of course, the child hasto uproot, has all the grief and
loss of losing friends, has thestrain of making new friends,
(15:53):
is already labelled with apastor's kid and therefore has
certain other things labelled onhim or her at school.
Even so, and that sense of Ihave had no control is something
I would be very interested toknow.
Within the PK circle, what'strue?
In M cases we have a higherincidence of eating disorders.
(16:17):
Oh, yes, that's a question.
Yes, because it's one.
That's.
The one thing I can control iswhat I eat.
Can't control where we live,what we do, what school I go to,
but that's something I cancontrol and that's really quite
worrying.
Valerie Ling (16:35):
Well, I wonder whether you think there's grief,
there's loss, there's alsoshame with kids, I think, mary,
there's a kind of shame of nottoughing it out, of saying that
you're feeling sad or you're notcoping as a ministry kid.
Do you think?
Yeah, yeah.
Marion Knell (16:55):
I mean there's there's a lot of oughts and
shoulds in a ministry kid's life.
I ought to know this.
I should be able to do this,and of course you hear these
platitudes that are dished out.
I can do all things throughChrist, who strengthens me.
Lulli, lulli, lulli, and that'sreally not not helpful.
And I think when for ministrykids it's really hard, who can I
(17:21):
talk to about this?
If I am having struggles,because I shouldn't have
struggles, but I am.
You know, whatever area is,whether it's something big like
sexuality or really somethingquite small, I shouldn't be
happy.
Who can I share with thesestruggles, with and, and, as you
say, a sense of shame that Ishould not?
(17:42):
So these shoulds ought allthose loaded verbs that come
into a PK vocabulary.
Valerie Ling (17:54):
I think it's challenging as well because, as
the world of education hasbecome more progressive in
helping kids to identify and tobe aware and accept, like you
know, whether they have identityconfusions or, you know, really
strong emotions, I don't knowthat there's a space for
ministry kids to be able to saythat they feel angry or
(18:19):
resentful or bitter or confused.
I think that, even if they'rein school, I remember seeing one
child who could never forgetfor herself that her father was
the pastor.
No matter what she went in, sheremembered and anything she
said she'd have to filter.
Now I don't think that that'swhat the parents told the child,
(18:41):
but that was the responsibility, this the witness that this she
was in primary school, thatthis child felt she needed to
bear even at school.
Marion Knell (18:51):
Yeah, and I mean yes, you say it's not
necessarily come from the family, but certainly it's coming from
the congregation, those whoemploy her father.
As I say, there is a sense, Ithink, when you're a PK, that
you're under the microscope allthe time.
And what we found out withmissions is that people felt
(19:15):
that their ministry was beingjudged by how their kids were
doing.
So you'd have people stand up,say, you know, well, I've got
three kids and they're all goingon with the Lord and la, la, la
, la, you know, and those of uswho may be at that stage that
wasn't true were kind of, youknow, a bully for you.
But the idea that in some wayyour kids validate your call is
(19:41):
an incredibly dangerous one.
Yeah, I think that's that's.
That's a lesson that they learn.
And you know we don't bring, weuse scripture wrongly because
we say try to train up a childwhen it's the way it should go
and it when it's all aboutdepartment.
That's from the book ofProverbs, that's a general
(20:03):
observation, it's not promise,and I think it's very hard on
the kids when they are seen asthe kind of the standard.
This is the seal on theministry.
Valerie Ling (20:15):
And so when we have family.
So one of the things our surveywell, my survey found because
it was a masters of leadership,I couldn't really do.
Nonetheless, it came up as oneof the top reasons why someone
in ministry would considerresigning would be because of
the impact on family.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, yes.
Marion Knell (20:38):
Sorry.
Valerie Ling (20:39):
Carry on.
Do you have some similarfindings or observations where
you are, Marion?
Marion Knell (20:45):
Yes, and I think the other.
The other factor in that isthat for many ministers their
spouse is their accountabilitypartner, their part.
They don't have an outsidementor.
Okay, Because the problem whenyou're the minister is who do I
talk to?
Valerie Ling (21:06):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
Marion Knell (21:29):
Who, who, who ministers to the minister.
So the strain within a marriageis is huge on that as well as
as the strain on on children,and certainly I think it was.
There was a survey done in 2000in the UK and that came up with
(21:50):
80.
I think it was something like50% of ministers were
considering going because of theeffect on on their family.
Now that's in some ways it washeartening that they were aware
of the fact that the family wasimpacted, because some ministers
kind of say along as if youknow well, nothing's happening
(22:11):
because they're living in thisyou know other plane of of being
.
And we look at some of ourmissionary heroes like and
William Carey, and the familywas an absolute mess Because you
know, I must, my ministry isthe most important thing by
calling is most important thing.
(22:31):
So in a sense it doesn'tsurprise me that you've found
that.
But what is interesting is thelevel of honesty you've managed
to achieve, I think, in this.
Valerie Ling (22:42):
I'm so appreciative, actually, of the
200 participants that I believegave gave a voice to some issues
that we don't see.
So I remember every admissionsconference I get to go to.
I will choose to do theelectives for children, as I
often find there's not enoughthat we know about what's
(23:03):
happening with children, but Ialso like to attend the ones
where you know the people whohave who are finishing off in
mission, tell their stories andcertainly attending mission
member care conferences.
So I know it's like how do youdefine mission member care?
But it's actually terrible work.
I just sit with my notebook andI categorize the stories grief,
(23:24):
trauma, grief trauma,particularly the ones finishing
off, and one of the things thatI like to do is the number of
times wives would talk about thegrief and trauma, about their
parenting or the issues to dowith their children on the field
(23:44):
.
I thought that that was reallyinteresting because, like you
say, when we, when we thinkabout missionaries and we think
of these wonderful stories, buteven today the reality is we're
not talking about the grief andtrauma.
But even today the reality is Ihave yet to really go to a
(24:05):
member care conference wherethere isn't some level of trauma
to do with stuff that happensnot just with the field, but
what happens with families onthe field.
Do you think?
Marion Knell (24:18):
I think so and I was very interested in your
research in the whole issue ofthe role of the organization,
because I think organizationsare not set up for the
well-being of their staff.
Very often there aren't goodaccountabilities, there's not
(24:39):
good appraisals, it's boundaries.
There's not.
People aren't taught onboundaries.
You know there should beboundaries to your ministry
boundaries, obviously, and yourmarriage boundaries for your
kids.
Ruth Van Rieken did someresearch on kids in a healthy
(25:01):
system and kids in an unhealthysystem.
That kids in a healthy system.
You know you have yourboundaries but the box is open.
So there are choices to be made.
There is freedom to go.
A kid in an unhealthy isexpected to conform and I think
conformity has been a big thingin missions and of course, often
the wives are the ones at homeenforcing whatever the culture
(25:26):
demands, and I think that putsan amazing demand on them.
I think the other thing as faras kids is concerned is
obviously the culture thatyou're serving in impacts.
So if you want to shame on aculture, that will impact.
So the culture that you'reserving in and your family
(25:49):
culture and increasingly, ofcourse, our workforce within
pastors is very multicultural,so we can't assume that
everybody's coming at this fromthe same lens, in terms of how
children should behave and howchildren should be brought up,
we have our ideas, but othercultures do it in different ways
and that's a challenge, I think, within the whole challenge of
(26:13):
multicultural church, which Idon't know how many
multicultural churches there arein Australia, but that's a
really growing phenomenon acrossEurope, and listening to
somebody from Germany recentlyon how they were coping with I
think it was 20 oddnationalities and six very
(26:33):
predominant languages and theculture that went with it, so
that's quite an interestingwhole field really.
Within that, I think you talkedabout grief, trauma, loss with
children.
Well, I think it happens withadults too.
(26:55):
It's easier to be angry than togrieve and what we do without.
I think some of the things wedo with our teens that return
from overseas could be helpfulto do with PKs when they get to
about 18, you know, and you'retrying to look back and trying
(27:15):
to make sense of this life as aPK, the things you weren't able
to look at, and so the one ofthe lifelong effects of being a
PK, and how do you respond tothat.
You don't have to let it defineyou.
How do you find yourself again.
We have a ritual we do withpeople on the whole area of
(27:40):
grief and bitterness.
Because it's not dealt with,anger, it'll go to business,
won't it?
And we have one of these littleand tacit tablets, you know
ready or whatever.
It is in a bowl of water and wesay this represents your
bitterness.
When you're ready, let thetablet go in the water and it
slowly dissipates.
But until you're ready, hold onto it.
(28:02):
But if you don't deal with it,it will eat away at you.
Valerie Ling (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, actually, just as you are saying
that, I'm thinking that youknow, when you're a child in
ministry, in the primary schoolyears, you may actually not know
what that is, but you willstart to have shadows of it come
when you're 1819, 2021.
And that's the time we have thewords to start to articulate,
(28:26):
isn't?
Marion Knell (28:27):
Yeah and.
I think it's.
Yeah, we, we just listen.
Just reading your, your paperand the whole organizational
approach, I wonder whetherwithin churches, there's room
for sort of debriefing anddebriefing techniques for
pastors, either regularly,obviously, when they leave a
(28:51):
ministry and move to another one, but some sort of procedure
which helps them to go through,as well as ongoing kind of
monitoring so that people don'tgo down into that burnout phase.
I mean, you've probably seenthe stress and burnout, the
stress and functioning curve,you know where we?
We start at the bottom withwith those stress and we move up
(29:14):
to our optimum stress andfunctioning and then we have
what I call the red zone and wecan dip in and out of the red
zone and it's okay.
But you spend too long in thered zone with too much stress
and and you're down there.
But finding ways for ministers,for ministers wise, separately,
because very often, well, insome circumstances, the wife
(29:35):
just goes along, she doesn'thave a call, she's just
following her husband, which istough on the marriage.
When it gets tough To have thatability to have a space on
someone they can safely sharewith, yes, I don't know what you
think whether that would.
Valerie Ling (29:54):
I think it's brilliant.
So we we have a debrief processwhere we're involved, the whole
family.
We see every child and adult ina family with one particular
agency over the last 10 yearsand we've really seen the
benefits of that.
So every home assignment, thewhole family, and I think one of
the beautiful things about thatis the children intimately you
(30:17):
know.
We've seen them when we had asuspicion of something when they
were five, and then you know,like, well, here it is again,
and then at 12 we're like haha,this is what's happening.
Yes, I think that's a that's.
We've just found how validatingit is.
We've seen children cry.
This is the missions community.
When we say to them we want toknow, when your agency wants to
(30:41):
know, how are you doing?
And you know you're going to bea service to Jesus.
You know, because obviouslynobody asked you to come along
for the ride, just have to go,and that's just.
You know when you, when youtell them that the ones that
have been holding it in just theI think it's a great idea, but
(31:03):
I don't.
Marion Knell (31:04):
I wonder, does does anything like that exist
for pastors?
Valerie Ling (31:08):
Not for the whole family, I think.
I think there are differentthings that sort of have the
spiritual renewal, but probablynot the sort of a well being
check in for the whole familythat I know of.
Yeah, I'd be curious ifanybody's listening to the
podcast and if it exists Withthis section.
Marion, what have you seenreally help families thrive in
(31:31):
mission and ministry?
What do you think really helps?
Marion Knell (31:37):
I think.
Well, there are various variousthings for people who are sent
obviously, permissions thing,having a really supportive
church that understands, becauseoften people don't understand
what ministry is like.
And I'm thinking to myself now,how does that work out with
somebody going into pastoralministry who are you sent by?
(31:58):
Do you have a close group ofpeople who support you?
Very often having anotherfamily with kids of the same age
who aren't necessarily involvedin the ministry but who you can
stay with, talk to be part ofthat.
So I think there's a bigeducation process in terms of
(32:20):
helping churches and sendingbodies to understand what's
going on, building up thosepersonal links.
You talked a lot about selfawareness, I think, and I think
that's important.
One of the studies that wasdone in the UK showed that for
the pastoral ministry you neededa lot of extrovert qualities
(32:44):
because you were up front doingthings.
But the majority of people ofMinisters in the survey were
introverts, so they were workingoutside of their comfort zone
the whole time.
Yes and they weren't aware ofthat.
Valerie Ling (32:56):
Yes.
Marion Knell (32:58):
So how do you build in self awareness?
How do you train people innecessary skills?
I mean, yours was membership,was leadership, and I think
certainly in the Bible collegeshere, when people are trained,
people are not trained inleadership skills or management
skills.
For many people, running achurch is almost like being the
(33:19):
CEO of an organization and theyhave the same thing about
mustn't take work home with you.
And that's a big challenge forpastors because, as we said, the
kids recognize that the home isalso part of the hub of the
ministry and people can call atany time.
One pastor said to me myphone's on 24 seven and I'm
(33:41):
saying, well, I didn't actuallysay it, but and for whose sake
is that?
But those sort of skills, Ithink can help.
Yeah, and having a wholebusiness of self care and time,
or following the Jesus principleof taking away time and having
(34:01):
solitude and socializing,finding out who you can
socialize with, because he wasquite a fun animal, but putting
in that that time is important.
And sometimes, again, familywise, that the pastor goes off
for an individual retreat forthree days.
But what happens to the rest ofthe family?
(34:23):
Or to the wife?
Does she have some sort ofretreat time, do the kids go
away to some sort of camp wherenobody knows who they are?
I mean, that's the wonderfulthing If you can go somewhere.
Nobody knows that your ex's sonor daughter.
You have a right to privacy, tothe being, and I think we could
(34:44):
think a lot more about buildingthat in that, that rest,
recuperation, building that intoas an expectation from an
organizational point of view.
You will take time off, nottake it off if you want, but
establishing that Sabbathprinciple that you know man was
created on the sixth day and onthe seventh day God rested.
(35:07):
So the first thing that man didwas was to rest and then went
to work.
So I think, establishing that,because often pastors and
missionaries are their own worstenemies in that field.
Valerie Ling (35:20):
And I think kids model after what they see
happening.
In the whole I think, oh yes, Ithink what you said.
We've got to recognize that.
The privacy.
I think ministry kids andmission kids don't think that
they can have any privacy.
Really it's, it's on all thetime, unless you're out of the
environment, that's right,that's right.
Marion Knell (35:45):
Another thing, another thing that the kids came
up with not this is the PKthing was the heresies.
I hear about God, that God'sdisappointed in me because I
didn't live up to this.
You know, and you know, themirror image of the father
obviously is very importantwithin that.
Valerie Ling (36:06):
Yes, yes, we're seeing some interesting things
in the practice because we nowhave a therapeutic modality, we
use EMDR.
So you know it helps adults.
We haven't done it withchildren yet, but you can see
how there are fragments ofmemories for ministry kids that
when they were little, sort ofmaybe seven to nine, it was just
(36:30):
frightening to overwhelmingthings people said or things
been said from the front orbeing in the home, that a little
seven, eight year old braininterpreted it in one way and
then got stuck.
You know, as an adult, sort of18 to 25, it comes out and
(36:52):
they're trying to make sense of.
You know what are thesememories and hence I think being
available to you if you havechildren who are in that
developmental phase.
We have to be around to talk,listen, process, attend, protect
, because we're the only peoplethat they've got, because the
(37:14):
church is not really always asafe place for them.
They can't speak it out.
Marion Knell (37:21):
And on the speaking out too, I've had PKs
and MKs who said you know, well,this happened to me.
And the next thing I know it'sin the sermon oh dear, yes, oh
dear An illustration, you know.
In other words, even my storyis not my own.
My story becomes public andthat's a really tough because
(37:46):
that then goes back to thisissue of trust.
The whole issue of trust andcontrol is huge.
If I grow up knowing thatanything I say or do is likely
to be brought out into the open,then who do I trust?
How do I establish trust, whichaffects how people make
relationships when they getolder, relationships that matter
(38:07):
because I have to be able to becompletely transparent with
this person, and if I haven'tlearned trust, then that's a
real stumbling block to that.
Valerie Ling (38:20):
And it makes me think now about the level of
conflict that I found in thechurch.
Kids just absorb that.
How many numbers of times we'veseen it.
They know something's not right.
They may not be able toarticulate it, but they can
sense the tension, they cansense the anger, they can sense
the sadness.
They pick up all of those cues.
(38:41):
So now I'm keen to get themessage out that even if as
adults we can't sort out ourstuff, we really owe it to the
kids who didn't have a lot ofsay about being in a ministry
family to watch out for themreally, yeah and that's one of
(39:02):
the things that can turn themagainst God, of course.
Marion Knell (39:05):
because why are we here?
Well, because God called us.
I would say, be very careful ofwaving the vocation card,
because if it's not right, thenthe ultimate person who's wrong
is God.
But if what's happening to methrough the congregation, why
are we here?
Well, it's because God's calledus.
(39:26):
Then the child thing channelsback to God being responsible,
and it's very difficult, isn'tit?
For, I think, for ministers,because this is not just a job,
it's more than a job.
But is there sort of income aswell?
So if that blows up suddenly,the family, it has no home, no
(39:52):
income.
It's a tough one.
And how?
Yeah, we've got a lot ofeducation, I think, to do within
churches, of the ramificationsof having a pastor and good
boundaries, as we said before,but also what our expectations
are, because the expectation isin many churches is that the
(40:15):
pastor will do everything, andif I haven't been visited by the
pastor, then I haven't beenvisited and that very soon burns
you out because you just don'thave enough strength.
And they forget the Ephesians.
You're there to equip thesaints to do the work of
ministry, not to do it allyourself and I think that
misunderstanding of what we'reabout and what the kingdom work
(40:37):
is about and how geez, that'show people get into that burnout
because they think, well, it'sall up to me.
Like that little eight year old, how will people hear if I
don't learn Greek?
And it's not God in chooses toinvolve us in the work of this
kingdom, but it's his work.
It's not us, it's not about meand what I do.
(40:58):
And we have that sort of dospirituality which is completely
the opposite way around.
What Jesus did we achieve inorder to be accepted and love,
and they have status, whereasJesus knew who he was, acted out
of that and then hadachievements.
So we work often a differentway around, that sort of what I
(41:18):
call square from the way Jesusworked.
Valerie Ling (41:23):
I'm thinking now about the paper that you sent me
, some of the things we'vealready spoken about but are you
in the process of creatingleadership training or this is
part of something you're doing,mary?
Marion Knell (41:43):
Well, leadership is certainly one of the modules.
So I said about the masters inmember care, ray Cliff, which is
now called staff care andwellbeing, which I'm quite
pleased they've changed.
So that had kind of two sidesOne was the mission worker as a
person and the other half wasthe member care provider, and so
(42:04):
leadership came within that.
Where does?
Because in the past leadershipand member care have been like
this leaders have tended tothink that we're just elevating
them and we're just into sort ofthey're there, don't do that,
whereas we're saying no, no,it's all about robustness.
(42:25):
And I think you mentionedresilience, because that's we
have also have a module onresilience, because for me
that's been another crucialthing.
That's come to the fore.
It's a bit of a buzzword, buthow do we test people's
resilience before they start andhow do we help them build
resilience?
And I think, well, you wouldknow perhaps, but the second of
(42:51):
under 40th generation here hasnot until recently, until COVID
I would say has had a relativelyeasy life.
They've not been part of awarfare or economic I mean.
Everything's changed sinceCOVID, but we build resilience
through hard times.
So how else do we buildresilience and what does it look
(43:14):
like Fraku Sheyfa in her bookTrauma and Resilience, I think,
identifies false sorts ofresilience emotional, personal,
physical and spiritual and shelooks at what are hallmarks of
being resilient in those areas.
And then how do we buildresilience, how do we build
resilient leaders?
And then how do we trainleaders?
(43:35):
I think I've been very impressedwith Operation Mobilization's
program.
So they identify potentialleaders when they're young and
start doing the training then inleadership.
So when they step up toleadership they're actually
trained in that.
So I'm not necessarily doing itmyself but, as I say, it's
(43:56):
there in the masters and I thinkincreasingly when we talk about
stress and burnout, we look sowhat would prevent burnout?
Because we talk about whathappens afterwards.
But it's really significantthat we look well, what helps
prevent burnout and how can weorganizationally build that into
(44:18):
our structure, in our culturethat we are about building
resilient people and monitoringhow they're doing, so that we're
not having to get to the end.
A friend of mine once used tosay it's much better to stop
people falling off the cliff andpick up the pieces at the
bottom.
And that's where we are withburnout we're picking up the
(44:39):
pieces at the bottom.
How much better if we can stoppeople going over the cliff.
Valerie Ling (44:43):
Yes, I'm just gonna dial it back because for
those listening who may not know, first of all what is member
care and then what this master'scourse is, would you mind just
unpacking that a little bit,please?
Yeah.
Marion Knell (44:58):
So, as I say, we changed it to really well-being.
I mean, if you talk within theNGO sector, they'll know I
understand staff care.
So member care is about thetotal well-being of people.
Hr is about conforming to theright standards things.
Member care is 24 seven.
(45:18):
It's about the person as wellas the work, and it encompasses
whole life and all the families.
So this year there's aninternational conference on TCKs
which is happening.
So it's been around for quite awhile, and so the member care
(45:38):
MA was a response to gettingsome academic rigor and research
done.
So that's been around for about10 years now.
We have had graduates fromAustralia who are doing very
well, deanna Richie, who did herstudies on disability and
mission, which was very good.
(45:59):
So that's really what that'sabout and that obviously is also
adapting all the time.
So we don't necessarily haveeverything the same as we had,
say, 10 years ago, because we'retrying to respond to a changing
situation.
But out of that, because of thedissertations like you and your
dissertation, we're actuallygetting some solid research and
(46:24):
direction in which to look for.
What are the areas?
So we've had dissertations onreentry, which was one on
resilience, out of which a bookcame.
So a multitude of areas thatyou can't do just as one person,
but by having a master'sprogram you actually get some
(46:45):
return on that, right.
So that can be done part-time,or most people do it part-time.
It can now be done online.
Valerie Ling (46:56):
That's wonderful, and you were mentioning that
it's one-part resilience andthen there's one-part
organizational as well.
What would be some of thethings that you see
organizations can do to enhancemember care, to take care of the
wellbeing of staff?
Marion Knell (47:18):
I think, establishing what I would call
job descriptions.
What are your expectations?
Some of the clashes and thestress are because the
organization has thisexpectation of what you're going
to do and you have thisexpectation.
If they don't meet, then that'sincredible.
So clarification of role, Ithink, is a really important
(47:38):
thing, Not beingresults-oriented in terms of
what.
Again, stating yourexpectations, having good
appraisals and goodaccountability both ways, not
just from the top down, but I'ma firm believer in 360,
(48:00):
accountability and appraisals,good governance, ongoing support
, a transparency that's thereand, as I say, building in good
practice in terms of time off,and that time off means time off
(48:24):
.
You don't say, well, it's apast as day off on Monday, but
you can still contact him Ifit's a day off, it's a day off.
I think putting those thingscan really help.
Valerie Ling (48:39):
What are some examples of governance?
Marion Knell (48:44):
Well, again, I don't know what has been
happening in Australia recently,but the whole safeguarding
issue is huge here because offailures, moral failures and, I
think, safeguarding within whatit's mandatory here.
I expected it in Australia too,but that affects certainly the
past as kids, which is important.
(49:07):
How, again, you're talkingabout different denominations,
aren't you?
In a sense it's easier withinthe missions because you're
talking about an organisationand so you can put in a set of
rules or code, which is mucheasier than in a church
situation where you've gotdifferent forms of governance.
(49:28):
But I think that safeguardingthat clear, good training,
ongoing training too justbecause you've done three years
at Bible school doesn't mean tosay you don't need other
training.
And how do you identifypeople's training needs?
I think it was OMF that had areally good chart that you could
(49:49):
before you went to the field.
You would have things what do Iwant to develop in
ministry-wise, spiritually-wise,family-wise, what am I going to
do it by?
And I think that could transfereasily into ministry One of the
key areas that we want toidentify what's needed and where
can the training be found, andthat will shift from year to
(50:13):
year, but something that gives aminister a prompt to ask those
questions I think is a goodthing.
And then just keeping obviouslyto charity law here, charity
law is quite strict.
So I'm chair of the Board ofWelcome Churches, which is a
network of we have over athousand churches now working
(50:34):
with refugees and we train themwith them.
But we have quite strictgovernance in what we can and
can't do, how we do and don'tspend our money and all that
sort of thing.
Valerie Ling (50:45):
So I usually wrap up the podcast by asking three
wrap up questions.
If there was a problem, let'sassume.
Maybe let's target this at afamily level.
If we were a ministry familylistening to our conversation
today, what's one you would likethem to walk away with, to
(51:07):
think or to do?
Marion Knell (51:13):
I would like them to walk away being.
I would want to say be free tobe who you want to be and to do
what God has called you to,because I think a lot of people
are doing a lot of things andI'm not sure that God's actually
asked them to do it in thefirst place.
So a freedom to get out of this.
(51:38):
If you're in a toxic box, breakthe lid of the box.
So pretty.
Valerie Ling (51:43):
Wow.
It is a commission to break thelid off of the toxic box.
And if there was a churchcommunity listening to us and
maybe I might ask you to slumpthis more towards thinking about
the kids If there was a churchcommunity like a Bible study
(52:03):
group or a group of elderslistening in, what's one thing
you'd like them to walk awaywith?
Marion Knell (52:13):
I would want them to walk in the shoes of the PK's
chart of the PK.
But imagine yourself as thiseight year old and view what
happens in the church and inthis Bible group through their
eyes what are they seeing orwhat are they hearing and treat
them as a child.
Know what I mean.
(52:34):
We should all know what thevarious development stages of
children are.
But, you know, don't treat aneight year old as if they're a
16 year old, because they shouldknow it.
This is a Parson's kid.
They should know all the verses, they should know all this.
But treat them as understand.
This is a child.
Treat them as a child, as anyother child, don't sing them out
(52:57):
.
Valerie Ling (53:01):
And if there were, you know if there was a
policymaker, or at adenominational level, or even at
a college level, what's onething you'd like them to think
about in this?
You know from our conversation.
Marion Knell (53:16):
Well, when you're well, when you're training or
when you're employing someone inpastoral ministry, think about
the whole family.
Yes, this person is the jobholder, but what they are about
to undertake will affect thewhole family.
So think about that in terms ofwhat your expectations are and
(53:41):
your provision is in terms of,well, it can be provision of
housing, but let's go down assimple as that, but take into
account the needs of the wholefamily as you address this
person and their move, theircalling, whatever.
Valerie Ling (54:00):
Thank you so much, Marion, for spending this time
with me all the way from the UKand for giving us your great
wisdom.
It's been wonderful.
Marion Knell (54:09):
Oh, thank you so much, Valerie, and look forward
to seeing you again sometimemaybe.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome, friends, to anotherepisode.
I've got here with me Mary andNell.
Welcome Mary.
Marion Knell (00:42):
Thank you very much, Valerie.
It's good to be with you.
Valerie Ling (00:45):
As of this moment when we are recording, you are
actually in the UK.
Marion Knell (00:50):
I am.
I'm in North London on a rathergrey day, but that's kind of
been symptomatic of the summerin the UK this year.
Valerie Ling (00:59):
Now, mary, I know you from Global Mission Member
Care and particularly in theyears when I was looking for
material on kids in mission, andso two of your books are on our
bookshelf.
In the practice, as I saycompulsory reading, I want to
(01:20):
give children a transition, butI'd love for you to introduce
yourself, because you've done somuch.
But I'd love for you tointroduce yourself.
Marion Knell (01:30):
Thank you so much.
So I've actually been toAustralia now four times, so
that kind of marked something.
And I did a seminar in Perthonce on well-being, member care
for leaders.
I've got a little bit of linkin there.
My background is I'm a teacherbut for many years I've been
(01:51):
involved in missionsparticularly so my husband and I
were there at World Ministriesso through that really became
involved in missionary kids andfamilies issues, because that
was big, taking families intothe Muslim world and out of that
came families on the move whichlooked at the dynamics of
(02:15):
taking a family overseas.
And then the second book isabout reentry for adults and
teens and through that becameinvolved in the wider area of
well-being or member care andstarted sounding the masters in
member care at Radcliffe Collegeto give some academic rigor to
what we were talking about, andfrom there have saved into
(02:40):
working with refugee workers.
The head of the refugee highwaypartnership said to me about 10
years ago Mary and member caremust have something to say to
refugee area because workers areburning out like there's no
tomorrow.
So that's been an interestingjourney, especially since now
(03:01):
we've been looking after 400Afghans in a hotel in our town.
So it's really kind of rightdown to the nitty gritty of that
sort of ministry.
So yeah, it's been a goodjourney, varied, which I like.
Valerie Ling (03:17):
And hasn't finished.
You were just talking about allthe different places.
Marion Knell (03:22):
Yeah, so I was in.
I did some stuff with the WorldWithout Orphans, their
conference in Bulgaria, naplesfor Refugees, and then at the
end of September I'm going toMoldova to do something with
teens out from Eastern Europe onstress, compassion, fatigue and
burnout, having been for threeyears running to Ukraine some
(03:46):
years ago.
Homo Sovieticus is alive andwell and the concept of self
care or anything like that isjust not in that culture.
So we're having to come at itfrom a different angle really.
Valerie Ling (04:01):
I mean, you've been working in mission, and
certainly in the internationalscene, for for a long time.
What do you make of the currentspeak about burnout and self
care and the stress?
What do you make of that?
Is it always been around?
Marion Knell (04:19):
I think it's been around.
It hasn't been talked aboutbecause you weren't allowed to.
There was very much a link, Ithink.
If you go back some yearsbetween calling and sacrifice,
god's call me.
So I'm a sacrifice, everything,and that included my family.
And if you dare raise a commentabout the demands being made on
(04:42):
you, then you quickly slappeddown, particularly for
organizations.
Organizations toleratedincredible rates.
I remember, about 20 years ago,one leader saying to me well,
everybody knows that personally,my job burns out.
Nice fact and accepted fact.
So I think what we've done isthe floodgates haven't given
(05:05):
people permission to to be selfaware and to be vulnerable,
because, as a leader, you werenot to be vulnerable.
That was the last thing youwere to be.
You were the strength, strength, the pillar.
So I think, in a healthy way,we're exploring it.
Valerie Ling (05:24):
And so let's say, in the times when we weren't a
lot, and I think it's stillthere, when we don't, how does
it appear on one of the signsand symptoms?
You know what?
What are the consequences if weaccept that burnout is part of
serving?
Marion Knell (05:41):
I think one of the major consequences that we
damage the people we serve,people in burnout are usually
the emotions are shut down, theability to empathize, all of
that sort of things got gone.
So when we're teaching, weteach the foot.
We don't want to do it now, butthe full stages of burnout and
making people aware of that,particularly in teams.
(06:02):
I think that's what we'veconcentrated on.
Whether it's a pastoral team ora church team or a mission team
, if the team is aware of theimpact of stress leading to
burnout, then they can watch outfor each other and I think
that's really important.
You know, because we're so,particularly in the worst, such
(06:23):
an individualistic society thatI'm responsible for me, you know
, whereas this whole, you knowthe Galatians, bear your own
burden.
That's a little rucksack onyour back, whereas bearable and
others burdens is this 40 onthis heavy load which we're
supposed to share with others.
Valerie Ling (06:41):
I'm looking at some information you sent
through to me which I'm verykeen to ask you about in a
minute, but you mentioned thefour stages of burnout and it
really mirrors what I see in ourpractice.
So stay right, walk about anenergy shortage.
It's the exhaustion that comesup.
Yeah.
Marion Knell (07:02):
Yes, well, I was just going to say I think that's
where it's easy for people justto brush it aside.
I'm just tired, you know, butwe're not talking about just I'm
tired, but you know I'm spent,there's nothing left.
Valerie Ling (07:18):
And you've written here to me saying that there's
no satisfaction in the work orthe ministry and it can lead to
the sarcastic and verbalcontempt for others or the work
and ministry.
Marion Knell (07:31):
Yeah, and that's where it begins to impact the
team, which is why I say it'simportant the team can recognize
, because it's, I think it's adisillusionment, that's it that
sits in, and so you go throughthe motions without any joy or
return and then you very quicklyturn to being cynical, and that
(07:51):
then that's when it's deflectedupon the team.
Really.
Valerie Ling (07:54):
Yeah, Very similar to what we find in relationship
, marital relationship researchis.
Once it hits that level ofcontent, you know something's
really really bad in therelationship.
Yeah, yeah.
The stage yeah, you've got.
Then it becomes chronicsymptoms and this is where bad
(08:14):
behaviors can develop slowly orlast a long time and I'm really
interested in this through anarrowness of viewpoint and they
can be anger, a sense of notbeing appreciated, intense fear
of suspicion and a kind of adisorientation, even.
Yes.
Marion Knell (08:33):
I think because the worldview is now, everything
comes under scrutiny and underjudgment and therefore bad
behaviors can be the sort ofverbal bad behaviors.
But obviously people then startto turn to other ways of
satisfying their needs andthat's where you can get people
(08:57):
moving into unhealthy addictions, which come into that as well.
Valerie Ling (09:04):
That's certainly what we see clinically.
Marion, certainly see, that ispart of the pathway.
Addictions tends to be one ofthe key coping mechanisms, if
you like.
Yeah, so at stage three we'reinto crisis now a deep, abiding
negativity, a sense that thingscannot and will not change,
(09:25):
feeling trapped, no way out.
Marion Knell (09:31):
And I think by this time the person really is
not self aware.
But this is where you'regetting to the point of being in
danger of committing suicide.
We're into the really deepmental health issues.
And yet very often these peopleare also in denial.
So they just carry on in theministry.
(09:52):
And this is why I say it's soimportant that we look out for
each other, because they justcarry on and they become then
destructive of others becausethey can't empathize with their
whether you call them clients orthe people they're working with
within the ministry and that'swhen they start to do more
damage and more harm than good.
Valerie Ling (10:15):
Yeah, so at stage four, I think, as a clinical
psychologist, that's where wewere seeing a lot of the impact.
You call it the crash here inyour paper.
It's a Dutch hopelessness, andthat's where we see the
depression, the anxiety it eatsinto all the other aspects of
self and others.
I think it's not just about howyou feel about yourself in
(10:37):
ministry, but how you feel ofyourself in general.
Marion Knell (10:40):
Yes, and I think one of the problems with
Christian ministry and we're notjust talking about Christian,
we are talking about pastors aswell is that so for so many,
their identity is vested in therole.
So if you take the role away,who am I without the ministry?
And that's why people oftencling on long after they should
(11:01):
do because of that, yeah, that Ihave to fulfill this role.
Self expectations as well, ofcourse.
With pastors, the hugeexpectations of the congregation
that you'll do with unrealisticexpectations we might add.
Valerie Ling (11:19):
So one of the reasons why I started the work
that I do was in 2016,.
I gave my first everpresentation about this concept
of burnout in ministry and whenit had finished, a 30 something
year old individual came andpulled me and he said don't ever
forget the kids.
(11:39):
He said I'm a kid, I'm an adultministry kid.
As a group of us, we didn'tmake it.
He says when you're talkingabout these things, don't forget
the kids, and I know you have aheart for this as well.
What do you see of kids inministry, in mission, in general
, and then when these sorts ofstages of burnout sets in in the
(12:02):
family, yeah, and I think thisis something actually we've been
aware, certainly within themissions community and
subsequently in the in the past,some ministry for some time.
Marion Knell (12:14):
So there was a, a survey done in the UK in 2020
where they actually identifiedproblems with the family as
being significant in terms ofministers Saying 50 percent of
them were concerned about theimpact on their families.
(12:35):
And what we see with the kidsis what the message a lot of
kids have is my parents'ministry is more important than
I am.
One kid said to me I had toqueue up to tell my father I was
getting engaged.
I had to queue up witheverybody else.
So this the, the heresies theylearned.
(12:56):
Timothy Stanford wrote a bookcalled I have to Be Perfect.
He is, he's a, an MK, butwrites it really from the PK
response perspective MK, pk pastkids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean we put MKs together nowunder this banner TTCK.
So cut kids.
(13:16):
So past six kids don't have the, the complication of more
cultures, but they do have thesemessages sent I have to be
perfect.
Everybody views the pastorsfamily.
Everybody looks to see howthey're behaving in church.
People have talked about beingin a pastors family is a bit
(13:38):
like being in a goldfish bowl asa child.
You have no privacy.
People come to your home allthe time.
You have issues of trust.
Who can I trust?
Because if I tell my story, ifI say anything, it's going to be
out there.
Who can I trust to say what'scoming?
And some of the kids talk aboutbeing was feeling responsible
(14:01):
for their parents mid ministry.
I could ruin my dad's ministryso I have to be perfect again.
I remember one small child.
They were in Greece and she wasgoing to Greek school.
She was about eight and shereally wasn't coping and they
were going to have to take herout and put her to international
court and she said but if that,if that happens, you know the
Greeks won't hear about Jesus.
(14:23):
I'm not a year old, she shouldbe very.
She was about eight, you know.
So I think that feeling thatyou're, you're, you're really an
encumbrance on almost, you knowthat you come last in the list.
Other people's does the othermessage, other people's needs
(14:47):
are always more important thanmine.
I mean first of all owning that, believing it, but then seeing
that actually that's happeningin practice and surely that
shouldn't be.
What shouldn't I count?
Why don't I count?
I remember Marjorie Fowler youmay have heard of, who's done a
lot of stuff with ministry, well, well-being.
(15:07):
She said it's not families orministry, it's families in
ministry, that when we do thingsin our ministry we need to take
into account the whole family,and that involves, I think, in
decision making.
The older the kids get.
We look at the teens and veryoften you've had decisions made
(15:33):
of you in which you had no saybut which have profound effect.
I mean some some churches, theministers move every three years
or so.
Not every minister stays insitu for a long time and each
time, of course, the child hasto uproot, has all the grief and
loss of losing friends, has thestrain of making new friends,
(15:53):
is already labelled with apastor's kid and therefore has
certain other things labelled onhim or her at school.
Even so, and that sense of Ihave had no control is something
I would be very interested toknow.
Within the PK circle, what'strue?
In M cases we have a higherincidence of eating disorders.
(16:17):
Oh, yes, that's a question.
Yes, because it's one.
That's.
The one thing I can control iswhat I eat.
Can't control where we live,what we do, what school I go to,
but that's something I cancontrol and that's really quite
worrying.
Valerie Ling (16:35):
Well, I wonder whether you think there's grief,
there's loss, there's alsoshame with kids, I think, mary,
there's a kind of shame of nottoughing it out, of saying that
you're feeling sad or you're notcoping as a ministry kid.
Do you think?
Yeah, yeah.
Marion Knell (16:55):
I mean there's there's a lot of oughts and
shoulds in a ministry kid's life.
I ought to know this.
I should be able to do this,and of course you hear these
platitudes that are dished out.
I can do all things throughChrist, who strengthens me.
Lulli, lulli, lulli, and that'sreally not not helpful.
And I think when for ministrykids it's really hard, who can I
(17:21):
talk to about this?
If I am having struggles,because I shouldn't have
struggles, but I am.
You know, whatever area is,whether it's something big like
sexuality or really somethingquite small, I shouldn't be
happy.
Who can I share with thesestruggles, with and, and, as you
say, a sense of shame that Ishould not?
(17:42):
So these shoulds ought allthose loaded verbs that come
into a PK vocabulary.
Valerie Ling (17:54):
I think it's challenging as well because, as
the world of education hasbecome more progressive in
helping kids to identify and tobe aware and accept, like you
know, whether they have identityconfusions or, you know, really
strong emotions, I don't knowthat there's a space for
ministry kids to be able to saythat they feel angry or
(18:19):
resentful or bitter or confused.
I think that, even if they'rein school, I remember seeing one
child who could never forgetfor herself that her father was
the pastor.
No matter what she went in, sheremembered and anything she
said she'd have to filter.
Now I don't think that that'swhat the parents told the child,
(18:41):
but that was the responsibility, this the witness that this she
was in primary school, thatthis child felt she needed to
bear even at school.
Marion Knell (18:51):
Yeah, and I mean yes, you say it's not
necessarily come from the family, but certainly it's coming from
the congregation, those whoemploy her father.
As I say, there is a sense, Ithink, when you're a PK, that
you're under the microscope allthe time.
And what we found out withmissions is that people felt
(19:15):
that their ministry was beingjudged by how their kids were
doing.
So you'd have people stand up,say, you know, well, I've got
three kids and they're all goingon with the Lord and la, la, la
, la, you know, and those of uswho may be at that stage that
wasn't true were kind of, youknow, a bully for you.
But the idea that in some wayyour kids validate your call is
(19:41):
an incredibly dangerous one.
Yeah, I think that's that's.
That's a lesson that they learn.
And you know we don't bring, weuse scripture wrongly because
we say try to train up a childwhen it's the way it should go
and it when it's all aboutdepartment.
That's from the book ofProverbs, that's a general
(20:03):
observation, it's not promise,and I think it's very hard on
the kids when they are seen asthe kind of the standard.
This is the seal on theministry.
Valerie Ling (20:15):
And so when we have family.
So one of the things our surveywell, my survey found because
it was a masters of leadership,I couldn't really do.
Nonetheless, it came up as oneof the top reasons why someone
in ministry would considerresigning would be because of
the impact on family.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, yes.
Marion Knell (20:38):
Sorry.
Valerie Ling (20:39):
Carry on.
Do you have some similarfindings or observations where
you are, Marion?
Marion Knell (20:45):
Yes, and I think the other.
The other factor in that isthat for many ministers their
spouse is their accountabilitypartner, their part.
They don't have an outsidementor.
Okay, Because the problem whenyou're the minister is who do I
talk to?
Valerie Ling (21:06):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
Marion Knell (21:29):
Who, who, who ministers to the minister.
So the strain within a marriageis is huge on that as well as
as the strain on on children,and certainly I think it was.
There was a survey done in 2000in the UK and that came up with
(21:50):
80.
I think it was something like50% of ministers were
considering going because of theeffect on on their family.
Now that's in some ways it washeartening that they were aware
of the fact that the family wasimpacted, because some ministers
kind of say along as if youknow well, nothing's happening
(22:11):
because they're living in thisyou know other plane of of being
.
And we look at some of ourmissionary heroes like and
William Carey, and the familywas an absolute mess Because you
know, I must, my ministry isthe most important thing by
calling is most important thing.
(22:31):
So in a sense it doesn'tsurprise me that you've found
that.
But what is interesting is thelevel of honesty you've managed
to achieve, I think, in this.
Valerie Ling (22:42):
I'm so appreciative, actually, of the
200 participants that I believegave gave a voice to some issues
that we don't see.
So I remember every admissionsconference I get to go to.
I will choose to do theelectives for children, as I
often find there's not enoughthat we know about what's
(23:03):
happening with children, but Ialso like to attend the ones
where you know the people whohave who are finishing off in
mission, tell their stories andcertainly attending mission
member care conferences.
So I know it's like how do youdefine mission member care?
But it's actually terrible work.
I just sit with my notebook andI categorize the stories grief,
(23:24):
trauma, grief trauma,particularly the ones finishing
off, and one of the things thatI like to do is the number of
times wives would talk about thegrief and trauma, about their
parenting or the issues to dowith their children on the field
(23:44):
.
I thought that that was reallyinteresting because, like you
say, when we, when we thinkabout missionaries and we think
of these wonderful stories, buteven today the reality is we're
not talking about the grief andtrauma.
But even today the reality is Ihave yet to really go to a
(24:05):
member care conference wherethere isn't some level of trauma
to do with stuff that happensnot just with the field, but
what happens with families onthe field.
Do you think?
Marion Knell (24:18):
I think so and I was very interested in your
research in the whole issue ofthe role of the organization,
because I think organizationsare not set up for the
well-being of their staff.
Very often there aren't goodaccountabilities, there's not
(24:39):
good appraisals, it's boundaries.
There's not.
People aren't taught onboundaries.
You know there should beboundaries to your ministry
boundaries, obviously, and yourmarriage boundaries for your
kids.
Ruth Van Rieken did someresearch on kids in a healthy
(25:01):
system and kids in an unhealthysystem.
That kids in a healthy system.
You know you have yourboundaries but the box is open.
So there are choices to be made.
There is freedom to go.
A kid in an unhealthy isexpected to conform and I think
conformity has been a big thingin missions and of course, often
the wives are the ones at homeenforcing whatever the culture
(25:26):
demands, and I think that putsan amazing demand on them.
I think the other thing as faras kids is concerned is
obviously the culture thatyou're serving in impacts.
So if you want to shame on aculture, that will impact.
So the culture that you'reserving in and your family
(25:49):
culture and increasingly, ofcourse, our workforce within
pastors is very multicultural,so we can't assume that
everybody's coming at this fromthe same lens, in terms of how
children should behave and howchildren should be brought up,
we have our ideas, but othercultures do it in different ways
and that's a challenge, I think, within the whole challenge of
(26:13):
multicultural church, which Idon't know how many
multicultural churches there arein Australia, but that's a
really growing phenomenon acrossEurope, and listening to
somebody from Germany recentlyon how they were coping with I
think it was 20 oddnationalities and six very
(26:33):
predominant languages and theculture that went with it, so
that's quite an interestingwhole field really.
Within that, I think you talkedabout grief, trauma, loss with
children.
Well, I think it happens withadults too.
(26:55):
It's easier to be angry than togrieve and what we do without.
I think some of the things wedo with our teens that return
from overseas could be helpfulto do with PKs when they get to
about 18, you know, and you'retrying to look back and trying
(27:15):
to make sense of this life as aPK, the things you weren't able
to look at, and so the one ofthe lifelong effects of being a
PK, and how do you respond tothat.
You don't have to let it defineyou.
How do you find yourself again.
We have a ritual we do withpeople on the whole area of
(27:40):
grief and bitterness.
Because it's not dealt with,anger, it'll go to business,
won't it?
And we have one of these littleand tacit tablets, you know
ready or whatever.
It is in a bowl of water and wesay this represents your
bitterness.
When you're ready, let thetablet go in the water and it
slowly dissipates.
But until you're ready, hold onto it.
(28:02):
But if you don't deal with it,it will eat away at you.
Valerie Ling (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, actually, just as you are saying
that, I'm thinking that youknow, when you're a child in
ministry, in the primary schoolyears, you may actually not know
what that is, but you willstart to have shadows of it come
when you're 1819, 2021.
And that's the time we have thewords to start to articulate,
(28:26):
isn't?
Marion Knell (28:27):
Yeah and.
I think it's.
Yeah, we, we just listen.
Just reading your, your paperand the whole organizational
approach, I wonder whetherwithin churches, there's room
for sort of debriefing anddebriefing techniques for
pastors, either regularly,obviously, when they leave a
(28:51):
ministry and move to another one, but some sort of procedure
which helps them to go through,as well as ongoing kind of
monitoring so that people don'tgo down into that burnout phase.
I mean, you've probably seenthe stress and burnout, the
stress and functioning curve,you know where we?
We start at the bottom withwith those stress and we move up
(29:14):
to our optimum stress andfunctioning and then we have
what I call the red zone and wecan dip in and out of the red
zone and it's okay.
But you spend too long in thered zone with too much stress
and and you're down there.
But finding ways for ministers,for ministers wise, separately,
because very often, well, insome circumstances, the wife
(29:35):
just goes along, she doesn'thave a call, she's just
following her husband, which istough on the marriage.
When it gets tough To have thatability to have a space on
someone they can safely sharewith, yes, I don't know what you
think whether that would.
Valerie Ling (29:54):
I think it's brilliant.
So we we have a debrief processwhere we're involved, the whole
family.
We see every child and adult ina family with one particular
agency over the last 10 yearsand we've really seen the
benefits of that.
So every home assignment, thewhole family, and I think one of
the beautiful things about thatis the children intimately you
(30:17):
know.
We've seen them when we had asuspicion of something when they
were five, and then you know,like, well, here it is again,
and then at 12 we're like haha,this is what's happening.
Yes, I think that's a that's.
We've just found how validatingit is.
We've seen children cry.
This is the missions community.
When we say to them we want toknow, when your agency wants to
(30:41):
know, how are you doing?
And you know you're going to bea service to Jesus.
You know, because obviouslynobody asked you to come along
for the ride, just have to go,and that's just.
You know when you, when youtell them that the ones that
have been holding it in just theI think it's a great idea, but
(31:03):
I don't.
Marion Knell (31:04):
I wonder, does does anything like that exist
for pastors?
Valerie Ling (31:08):
Not for the whole family, I think.
I think there are differentthings that sort of have the
spiritual renewal, but probablynot the sort of a well being
check in for the whole familythat I know of.
Yeah, I'd be curious ifanybody's listening to the
podcast and if it exists Withthis section.
Marion, what have you seenreally help families thrive in
(31:31):
mission and ministry?
What do you think really helps?
Marion Knell (31:37):
I think.
Well, there are various variousthings for people who are sent
obviously, permissions thing,having a really supportive
church that understands, becauseoften people don't understand
what ministry is like.
And I'm thinking to myself now,how does that work out with
somebody going into pastoralministry who are you sent by?
(31:58):
Do you have a close group ofpeople who support you?
Very often having anotherfamily with kids of the same age
who aren't necessarily involvedin the ministry but who you can
stay with, talk to be part ofthat.
So I think there's a bigeducation process in terms of
(32:20):
helping churches and sendingbodies to understand what's
going on, building up thosepersonal links.
You talked a lot about selfawareness, I think, and I think
that's important.
One of the studies that wasdone in the UK showed that for
the pastoral ministry you neededa lot of extrovert qualities
(32:44):
because you were up front doingthings.
But the majority of people ofMinisters in the survey were
introverts, so they were workingoutside of their comfort zone
the whole time.
Yes and they weren't aware ofthat.
Valerie Ling (32:56):
Yes.
Marion Knell (32:58):
So how do you build in self awareness?
How do you train people innecessary skills?
I mean, yours was membership,was leadership, and I think
certainly in the Bible collegeshere, when people are trained,
people are not trained inleadership skills or management
skills.
For many people, running achurch is almost like being the
(33:19):
CEO of an organization and theyhave the same thing about
mustn't take work home with you.
And that's a big challenge forpastors because, as we said, the
kids recognize that the home isalso part of the hub of the
ministry and people can call atany time.
One pastor said to me myphone's on 24 seven and I'm
(33:41):
saying, well, I didn't actuallysay it, but and for whose sake
is that?
But those sort of skills, Ithink can help.
Yeah, and having a wholebusiness of self care and time,
or following the Jesus principleof taking away time and having
(34:01):
solitude and socializing,finding out who you can
socialize with, because he wasquite a fun animal, but putting
in that that time is important.
And sometimes, again, familywise, that the pastor goes off
for an individual retreat forthree days.
But what happens to the rest ofthe family?
(34:23):
Or to the wife?
Does she have some sort ofretreat time, do the kids go
away to some sort of camp wherenobody knows who they are?
I mean, that's the wonderfulthing If you can go somewhere.
Nobody knows that your ex's sonor daughter.
You have a right to privacy, tothe being, and I think we could
(34:44):
think a lot more about buildingthat in that, that rest,
recuperation, building that intoas an expectation from an
organizational point of view.
You will take time off, nottake it off if you want, but
establishing that Sabbathprinciple that you know man was
created on the sixth day and onthe seventh day God rested.
(35:07):
So the first thing that man didwas was to rest and then went
to work.
So I think, establishing that,because often pastors and
missionaries are their own worstenemies in that field.
Valerie Ling (35:20):
And I think kids model after what they see
happening.
In the whole I think, oh yes, Ithink what you said.
We've got to recognize that.
The privacy.
I think ministry kids andmission kids don't think that
they can have any privacy.
Really it's, it's on all thetime, unless you're out of the
environment, that's right,that's right.
Marion Knell (35:45):
Another thing, another thing that the kids came
up with not this is the PKthing was the heresies.
I hear about God, that God'sdisappointed in me because I
didn't live up to this.
You know, and you know, themirror image of the father
obviously is very importantwithin that.
Valerie Ling (36:06):
Yes, yes, we're seeing some interesting things
in the practice because we nowhave a therapeutic modality, we
use EMDR.
So you know it helps adults.
We haven't done it withchildren yet, but you can see
how there are fragments ofmemories for ministry kids that
when they were little, sort ofmaybe seven to nine, it was just
(36:30):
frightening to overwhelmingthings people said or things
been said from the front orbeing in the home, that a little
seven, eight year old braininterpreted it in one way and
then got stuck.
You know, as an adult, sort of18 to 25, it comes out and
(36:52):
they're trying to make sense of.
You know what are thesememories and hence I think being
available to you if you havechildren who are in that
developmental phase.
We have to be around to talk,listen, process, attend, protect
, because we're the only peoplethat they've got, because the
(37:14):
church is not really always asafe place for them.
They can't speak it out.
Marion Knell (37:21):
And on the speaking out too, I've had PKs
and MKs who said you know, well,this happened to me.
And the next thing I know it'sin the sermon oh dear, yes, oh
dear An illustration, you know.
In other words, even my storyis not my own.
My story becomes public andthat's a really tough because
(37:46):
that then goes back to thisissue of trust.
The whole issue of trust andcontrol is huge.
If I grow up knowing thatanything I say or do is likely
to be brought out into the open,then who do I trust?
How do I establish trust, whichaffects how people make
relationships when they getolder, relationships that matter
(38:07):
because I have to be able to becompletely transparent with
this person, and if I haven'tlearned trust, then that's a
real stumbling block to that.
Valerie Ling (38:20):
And it makes me think now about the level of
conflict that I found in thechurch.
Kids just absorb that.
How many numbers of times we'veseen it.
They know something's not right.
They may not be able toarticulate it, but they can
sense the tension, they cansense the anger, they can sense
the sadness.
They pick up all of those cues.
(38:41):
So now I'm keen to get themessage out that even if as
adults we can't sort out ourstuff, we really owe it to the
kids who didn't have a lot ofsay about being in a ministry
family to watch out for themreally, yeah and that's one of
(39:02):
the things that can turn themagainst God, of course.
Marion Knell (39:05):
because why are we here?
Well, because God called us.
I would say, be very careful ofwaving the vocation card,
because if it's not right, thenthe ultimate person who's wrong
is God.
But if what's happening to methrough the congregation, why
are we here?
Well, it's because God's calledus.
(39:26):
Then the child thing channelsback to God being responsible,
and it's very difficult, isn'tit?
For, I think, for ministers,because this is not just a job,
it's more than a job.
But is there sort of income aswell?
So if that blows up suddenly,the family, it has no home, no
(39:52):
income.
It's a tough one.
And how?
Yeah, we've got a lot ofeducation, I think, to do within
churches, of the ramificationsof having a pastor and good
boundaries, as we said before,but also what our expectations
are, because the expectation isin many churches is that the
(40:15):
pastor will do everything, andif I haven't been visited by the
pastor, then I haven't beenvisited and that very soon burns
you out because you just don'thave enough strength.
And they forget the Ephesians.
You're there to equip thesaints to do the work of
ministry, not to do it allyourself and I think that
misunderstanding of what we'reabout and what the kingdom work
(40:37):
is about and how geez, that'show people get into that burnout
because they think, well, it'sall up to me.
Like that little eight year old, how will people hear if I
don't learn Greek?
And it's not God in chooses toinvolve us in the work of this
kingdom, but it's his work.
It's not us, it's not about meand what I do.
(40:58):
And we have that sort of dospirituality which is completely
the opposite way around.
What Jesus did we achieve inorder to be accepted and love,
and they have status, whereasJesus knew who he was, acted out
of that and then hadachievements.
So we work often a differentway around, that sort of what I
(41:18):
call square from the way Jesusworked.
Valerie Ling (41:23):
I'm thinking now about the paper that you sent me
, some of the things we'vealready spoken about but are you
in the process of creatingleadership training or this is
part of something you're doing,mary?
Marion Knell (41:43):
Well, leadership is certainly one of the modules.
So I said about the masters inmember care, ray Cliff, which is
now called staff care andwellbeing, which I'm quite
pleased they've changed.
So that had kind of two sidesOne was the mission worker as a
person and the other half wasthe member care provider, and so
(42:04):
leadership came within that.
Where does?
Because in the past leadershipand member care have been like
this leaders have tended tothink that we're just elevating
them and we're just into sort ofthey're there, don't do that,
whereas we're saying no, no,it's all about robustness.
(42:25):
And I think you mentionedresilience, because that's we
have also have a module onresilience, because for me
that's been another crucialthing.
That's come to the fore.
It's a bit of a buzzword, buthow do we test people's
resilience before they start andhow do we help them build
resilience?
And I think, well, you wouldknow perhaps, but the second of
(42:51):
under 40th generation here hasnot until recently, until COVID
I would say has had a relativelyeasy life.
They've not been part of awarfare or economic I mean.
Everything's changed sinceCOVID, but we build resilience
through hard times.
So how else do we buildresilience and what does it look
(43:14):
like Fraku Sheyfa in her bookTrauma and Resilience, I think,
identifies false sorts ofresilience emotional, personal,
physical and spiritual and shelooks at what are hallmarks of
being resilient in those areas.
And then how do we buildresilience, how do we build
resilient leaders?
And then how do we trainleaders?
(43:35):
I think I've been very impressedwith Operation Mobilization's
program.
So they identify potentialleaders when they're young and
start doing the training then inleadership.
So when they step up toleadership they're actually
trained in that.
So I'm not necessarily doing itmyself but, as I say, it's
(43:56):
there in the masters and I thinkincreasingly when we talk about
stress and burnout, we look sowhat would prevent burnout?
Because we talk about whathappens afterwards.
But it's really significantthat we look well, what helps
prevent burnout and how can weorganizationally build that into
(44:18):
our structure, in our culturethat we are about building
resilient people and monitoringhow they're doing, so that we're
not having to get to the end.
A friend of mine once used tosay it's much better to stop
people falling off the cliff andpick up the pieces at the
bottom.
And that's where we are withburnout we're picking up the
(44:39):
pieces at the bottom.
How much better if we can stoppeople going over the cliff.
Valerie Ling (44:43):
Yes, I'm just gonna dial it back because for
those listening who may not know, first of all what is member
care and then what this master'scourse is, would you mind just
unpacking that a little bit,please?
Yeah.
Marion Knell (44:58):
So, as I say, we changed it to really well-being.
I mean, if you talk within theNGO sector, they'll know I
understand staff care.
So member care is about thetotal well-being of people.
Hr is about conforming to theright standards things.
Member care is 24 seven.
(45:18):
It's about the person as wellas the work, and it encompasses
whole life and all the families.
So this year there's aninternational conference on TCKs
which is happening.
So it's been around for quite awhile, and so the member care
(45:38):
MA was a response to gettingsome academic rigor and research
done.
So that's been around for about10 years now.
We have had graduates fromAustralia who are doing very
well, deanna Richie, who did herstudies on disability and
mission, which was very good.
(45:59):
So that's really what that'sabout and that obviously is also
adapting all the time.
So we don't necessarily haveeverything the same as we had,
say, 10 years ago, because we'retrying to respond to a changing
situation.
But out of that, because of thedissertations like you and your
dissertation, we're actuallygetting some solid research and
(46:24):
direction in which to look for.
What are the areas?
So we've had dissertations onreentry, which was one on
resilience, out of which a bookcame.
So a multitude of areas thatyou can't do just as one person,
but by having a master'sprogram you actually get some
(46:45):
return on that, right.
So that can be done part-time,or most people do it part-time.
It can now be done online.
Valerie Ling (46:56):
That's wonderful, and you were mentioning that
it's one-part resilience andthen there's one-part
organizational as well.
What would be some of thethings that you see
organizations can do to enhancemember care, to take care of the
wellbeing of staff?
Marion Knell (47:18):
I think, establishing what I would call
job descriptions.
What are your expectations?
Some of the clashes and thestress are because the
organization has thisexpectation of what you're going
to do and you have thisexpectation.
If they don't meet, then that'sincredible.
So clarification of role, Ithink, is a really important
(47:38):
thing, Not beingresults-oriented in terms of
what.
Again, stating yourexpectations, having good
appraisals and goodaccountability both ways, not
just from the top down, but I'ma firm believer in 360,
(48:00):
accountability and appraisals,good governance, ongoing support
, a transparency that's thereand, as I say, building in good
practice in terms of time off,and that time off means time off
(48:24):
.
You don't say, well, it's apast as day off on Monday, but
you can still contact him Ifit's a day off, it's a day off.
I think putting those thingscan really help.
Valerie Ling (48:39):
What are some examples of governance?
Marion Knell (48:44):
Well, again, I don't know what has been
happening in Australia recently,but the whole safeguarding
issue is huge here because offailures, moral failures and, I
think, safeguarding within whatit's mandatory here.
I expected it in Australia too,but that affects certainly the
past as kids, which is important.
(49:07):
How, again, you're talkingabout different denominations,
aren't you?
In a sense it's easier withinthe missions because you're
talking about an organisationand so you can put in a set of
rules or code, which is mucheasier than in a church
situation where you've gotdifferent forms of governance.
(49:28):
But I think that safeguardingthat clear, good training,
ongoing training too justbecause you've done three years
at Bible school doesn't mean tosay you don't need other
training.
And how do you identifypeople's training needs?
I think it was OMF that had areally good chart that you could
(49:49):
before you went to the field.
You would have things what do Iwant to develop in
ministry-wise, spiritually-wise,family-wise, what am I going to
do it by?
And I think that could transfereasily into ministry One of the
key areas that we want toidentify what's needed and where
can the training be found, andthat will shift from year to
(50:13):
year, but something that gives aminister a prompt to ask those
questions I think is a goodthing.
And then just keeping obviouslyto charity law here, charity
law is quite strict.
So I'm chair of the Board ofWelcome Churches, which is a
network of we have over athousand churches now working
(50:34):
with refugees and we train themwith them.
But we have quite strictgovernance in what we can and
can't do, how we do and don'tspend our money and all that
sort of thing.
Valerie Ling (50:45):
So I usually wrap up the podcast by asking three
wrap up questions.
If there was a problem, let'sassume.
Maybe let's target this at afamily level.
If we were a ministry familylistening to our conversation
today, what's one you would likethem to walk away with, to
(51:07):
think or to do?
Marion Knell (51:13):
I would like them to walk away being.
I would want to say be free tobe who you want to be and to do
what God has called you to,because I think a lot of people
are doing a lot of things andI'm not sure that God's actually
asked them to do it in thefirst place.
So a freedom to get out of this.
(51:38):
If you're in a toxic box, breakthe lid of the box.
So pretty.
Valerie Ling (51:43):
Wow.
It is a commission to break thelid off of the toxic box.
And if there was a churchcommunity listening to us and
maybe I might ask you to slumpthis more towards thinking about
the kids If there was a churchcommunity like a Bible study
(52:03):
group or a group of elderslistening in, what's one thing
you'd like them to walk awaywith?
Marion Knell (52:13):
I would want them to walk in the shoes of the PK's
chart of the PK.
But imagine yourself as thiseight year old and view what
happens in the church and inthis Bible group through their
eyes what are they seeing orwhat are they hearing and treat
them as a child.
Know what I mean.
(52:34):
We should all know what thevarious development stages of
children are.
But, you know, don't treat aneight year old as if they're a
16 year old, because they shouldknow it.
This is a Parson's kid.
They should know all the verses, they should know all this.
But treat them as understand.
This is a child.
Treat them as a child, as anyother child, don't sing them out
(52:57):
.
Valerie Ling (53:01):
And if there were, you know if there was a
policymaker, or at adenominational level, or even at
a college level, what's onething you'd like them to think
about in this?
You know from our conversation.
Marion Knell (53:16):
Well, when you're well, when you're training or
when you're employing someone inpastoral ministry, think about
the whole family.
Yes, this person is the jobholder, but what they are about
to undertake will affect thewhole family.
So think about that in terms ofwhat your expectations are and
(53:41):
your provision is in terms of,well, it can be provision of
housing, but let's go down assimple as that, but take into
account the needs of the wholefamily as you address this
person and their move, theircalling, whatever.
Valerie Ling (54:00):
Thank you so much, Marion, for spending this time
with me all the way from the UKand for giving us your great
wisdom.
It's been wonderful.
Marion Knell (54:09):
Oh, thank you so much, Valerie, and look forward
to seeing you again sometimemaybe.
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