October 4, 2023 • 48 mins
In this episode, Vikki Napier, Head of Human Resources at the Anglican Church Diocese Of Sydney, reflects on her corporate HR experience and the church context. What surprises her, what she thinks we are doing well, where we have a way to go, and where we can add value to our churches from a human and humane resourcing perspective.
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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Greetings friends.
It's another episode I havewith me here today Vicki Napier.
Hi, vicki.
Vikki Napier (00:39):
Hi Valerie, how are you going?
Valerie Ling (00:41):
I'm pretty well.
Thank you.
We've only had a couple ofinteractions.
Could you introduce yourselfand your role?
Vikki Napier (00:50):
Sure.
So I am Vikki Napier.
I'm the Parish HR Partner forthe Sydney Anglican Diocese.
It's a new role.
Well, when I say it's a newrole, it started just before
COVID.
So BC it was highlighted to methe other day that we have a new
meaning for BC now.
It's not before Christ, it'sbefore COVID.
(01:13):
So, yeah, and so still tryingto establish that role and help
Parishers, I guess, recognisethat they have a HR resource to
tap into at any time they need.
So trying to really encouragethem to reach out to me and so
(01:35):
that I can help them with HRstaff.
Valerie Ling (01:36):
Basically, and Vikki, where have you come from
in terms of your professionallife?
What sorts of work andindustries have you been in so
I've worked in corporate HRroles for large organisations.
Vikki Napier (01:50):
The most prominent one was in the
telecommunications industry andwithin that area we are looking
after course centres at onestage.
So a very interesting andtricky environment in and of
itself.
And also field staff, sotechnicians who will go out to
(02:13):
homes and businesses and helppeople with their
telecommunications solutions.
So that's the major kind offorming of my career.
But later on I became a casemanager where I was engaged to
work across all aspects of thatindustry in helping people to
(02:37):
manage performance orbehavioural issues and the odd
whistleblower complaint.
So very interesting.
Valerie Ling (02:45):
Fascinating and I'm curious, similarities and
differences now that you areworking in this context.
Vikki Napier (02:52):
Yes, Well there are some real differences.
Firstly, there are employeesand then there are office
holders, and so navigating thebest approach to honour the law
of the land but also acknowledgethat people are working side by
(03:15):
side with different, I guess,legal obligations.
So that's interesting.
Sadly, I have seen similarbehaviours inside churches as
those I witnessed outside, but Ididn't come down in the last
shower, so I know we're allsinful and we're just working
(03:36):
our way, doing the best we canto glorify God.
So that didn't come as a hugesurprise, but sometimes it's a
little disappointing but, let meadd, it's not often.
The majority of people withinour parishes are amazing,
working hard for the gospel, andI give God thanks for them each
(03:58):
and every day.
So, yeah, I'm wondering.
Valerie Ling (04:03):
you know, the survey that I did suggested that
something like 35% werethinking of resigning seriously
in the next 12 months, but thenthere are 65% who aren't.
I don't know if you can answerthis, but from your observations
, what makes the difference?
Vikki Napier (04:22):
Yeah, you know, parishioners or congregation
members can be a tough group to,I guess, under ship it.
So myself as a parishioner, Iknow I want to support and
encourage my minister and honourhis leadership over me.
(04:45):
I don't know that we asparishioners for the most part
recognise that.
So sometimes there are rectorswho are church workers who are
just facing really difficultsituations that we as lay people
you know we hinder theirministry rather than help it.
(05:08):
So I think that that's part ofit.
Sometimes people.
So you may have a rector who'sin a wonderful church with very
supportive parishioners who andthey're all working in
partnership for the sake of thegospel.
I think that can be reallyedifying and encouraging for the
minister and is a blueprint forhow all our churches should
(05:33):
operate.
But then you may have othersthat they're just facing
conflict all the time.
There are people in ourchurches who may think that the
staff workers and our clergy arethere to, you know, to order
around or to do what we say,instead of us honouring their
(05:55):
leadership.
So for that that can besomething that can wear a rector
out and cause them to just getdisheartened and want to at
least remove themselves fromthat environment, whether it
burns them to the extent wherethey want to step out of
ministry or not would depend onthat person in the situation.
(06:17):
But I think that there arethose components that would
depend on the church.
I think it also depends onsuitability.
I think if we've got, if we'reself aware, there may be some
church workers or clergy outthere who thought who may be
thinking you know what.
I thought this was for me, butI don't think this is where God
(06:39):
wants me at the moment.
That's okay, because my goal isto serve God for the rest of my
life, whether that's invocational ministry or whether
that's somewhere else.
Then let me be guided by God,but this doesn't feel like it's
where he wants me to be at themoment.
So there may be that sort ofthought process going on as well
.
Valerie Ling (06:58):
So yeah, and you mentioned self aware
Interestingly.
I don't know how the directiongoes because I you know we
didn't have enough power to dothe stats, but burnout was
related to lower levels of youknow, emotional, I guess,
processing and therefore insight.
(07:19):
You know, what do you see?
Vikki Napier (07:21):
Yeah, look, I see, I see humility in those who are
self aware, and that takes alot of courage, because when
you're self aware, you recognizeyour shortcomings and you
(07:42):
recognize that you can't do allof this on your own, and there's
a real humility and grace inthat.
I think.
When you, when you have yourback up against the wall, though
, and you feel that it's all,all conflict and all hard work,
then maybe you're in that.
I mean, you wouldn't know.
That's very, very, very scary.
(08:03):
But that fight you know thatfight or flight kind of
mentality you really need to putup the facade and and appear to
have everything you know incontrol, and you know you are
the leader, you've goteverything in control, so they
ought to listen to you, and thatcan be.
You know that that's the lackof awareness and the lack of
(08:27):
confidence in the people thatyou have around you as well.
I think it's really interesting,isn't it?
I feel that we all just need toremember how Jesus calls us to
behave with one another, youknow, because if, if ministers
(08:50):
humble and gracious as they leadJesus's flock, and the flock
people like myself humble andgracious and supportive of the
leadership that God has placedover us, then that's harmony and
that's the safe place forpeople to make mistakes.
We're all gonna make mistakes,so if a rector or a church
(09:13):
worker makes a mistake, theyshould be able to do that,
knowing that everyone'ssupporting them and you know
that's okay.
We're all human.
So I feel like, just as youthink about it, I feel a little
bit sad that church isn't reallylike that, that there's so much
pressure on our church workersto fit an image and to appear to
(09:39):
have it all together, becausethose in our churches, such as
myself, haven't reinforced ourthankfulness to God for placing
that leadership over us andhelping us to do life as
Christians.
Valerie Ling (09:57):
We can either have an element of you know, for me,
humility speaks to character,To me, vulnerability speaks to a
posture and attitude, and inthe case of what we're seeing
with these levels of conflict,that it's not always safe to be
(10:19):
vulnerable and say I don't know,I'm not sure.
Or you know, I feel like Idon't belong.
You know.
Vikki Napier (10:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So and that's, I guess that'sto the point that I was saying.
That really saddens me.
I want my minister, or myassistant minister, to you know,
be able to get things wrong andnot feel that they have to get
everything right all the timebecause if they don't get things
(10:48):
right they'll be jumped on andyou know that sort of stuff.
I think, yeah, I think thatvulnerability comes with, or
being able to be vulnerablecomes with, developing that
culture of trust and partnershipwith the congregation, and I
don't know that we do that well,I mean as parishioners as well.
(11:12):
So how do you build a culturewithin a church where you do
have this collaboration andeveryone recognizes there's role
clarity and everyone recognizeswhat their role is?
Mine is to support the churchworkers that God has placed over
me to do the ministry, torecognize their authority in
(11:36):
that and to serve humbly andgraciously to God's glory.
Maybe we need to do somecultural interventions in our
297 churches.
Valerie Ling (11:50):
I've been reflecting a lot on how
typically at least in the lastdecade, since I've been in
practice and doing this workthat we've taken a view of the
individual and interpersonaldynamics.
So, you know, there'd be likethe resilience and burnout
factor for our ministry workers,and how do we mediate and
(12:12):
navigate conflict between peoplein a church.
But more and more I've startedto think about organizational
design and the functions thatare possibly missing.
So for me and I could be wrong,tell me what you think
Different courses can play acompliance role and sometimes I
(12:34):
think that, particularly in theclients that we're seeing,
they've really got trapped inquite a lot of compliance issues
.
So there are conduct issues andalso things like needing to
tick a lot of boxes and theadmin goes up, and there's also
the organizational behavior, thedynamics of trust, the dynamics
(12:58):
of, you know, like what youwere saying, how do we create a
culture of value and a cultureof respect, and I'm almost
wondering whether that in and ofitself is something that we
wanna look at.
Vikki Napier (13:14):
Mm-mm.
Yes, yeah, I think so.
I think we've got this.
We've clearly got this problemat the moment and it's probably
existed for a very long timebecause of the nature of the
role I mean.
Now our church workers are atthe coalface for all those
(13:35):
significant events of everyone'slives and it's a lot of
emotional kind of baggage tocarry on behalf of the people
that you're caring for.
So looking at thosepreventative measures is a
really would be a really helpfulthing.
I'm just trying to think how youwould do that with the
(13:59):
congregation, because it needsto be a collaborative process
where everyone's workingtogether, where church workers
are hearing what theexpectations are of the
congregation members andcongregation members are hearing
the expectations that are basedon church workers.
And is that transparency ofexpectations?
(14:21):
I actually wonder if part of itlike if there is some sort of
contract sounds too formal, butwhen a rector comes to a new
church, maybe there's some sortof induction for the
congregation as well.
(14:42):
These are the expectations.
These are the things that youcan expect from me as your
rector.
These are the things that youhave said that you would like me
to do.
This is how I see us workingtogether.
I mean that sounds veryautocratic, but I wonder if
(15:02):
there's some sort of engagementpiece that when a new minister
begins at a new church,regardless of what has gone on
in the past, whether theprevious rector allowed, say,
the wardens and the parishcouncils to just run the church,
or whether there was a greatdeal of collaboration or
(15:25):
whatever the situation was Maybethere's an option of drawing a
line in the sand and justreminding everyone that this is
actually the role of the rector.
It's not to be at your beck andcore 24 seven, although he will
be because of his pastoraltendencies.
He loves you, your Christ'streasured possession, and he
(15:48):
wants to serve you.
But don't take advantage ofthat and remember he's a person
as well.
So he's also Christ's treasuredpossession.
And what are you going to do tosupport him, recognising that
he also is someone dearly andfeefully loved by Jesus?
So yeah, I wonder how you woulddo that.
Have you got any ideas?
Valerie Ling (16:09):
I know you and I want to get into a room with
white boards.
Vikki Napier (16:12):
There's always, definitely, I can't tell you
what boards?
Valerie Ling (16:16):
but I can already see at least six.
Yeah, yeah, I guess you weresaying that I personally am
reflecting on how much of thelast decade, when it comes to
selection and the fit ofministry candidates, it really
has been looked at from aselection and development matrix
, which I think is helpful whensomeone is first starting out in
(16:38):
ministry and they're beingabsorbed into a relatively
healthy, stable church.
But the more you're justtalking, I was thinking the
framework of rectors going intonew churches is almost more in
the realm of mergers andacquisitions.
It's conflictual, it's messy,there are all kinds of dynamics,
(16:58):
the change and thecommunication management that
comes from that, and I actuallywonder whether some of the
things that happens when we havethese sorts of disasters has
got to do with just we justhaven't merged or blended.
I mean, it's a lot like blendedfamilies, yeah, yeah, and in
both practices as well, thatwhole phase in a blended family
(17:21):
can take years.
Vikki Napier (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's true, and I think rectors very
wisely or the majority that Iknow and have spoken to, and
very wisely go to a new positionand try not to upset the apple
cart too quickly, like they maygive it 12 months to see a whole
(17:46):
cycle of how things are doneand then they'll start to
introduce changes.
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom and prayer that new
rectors like rectors coming intoa new church can sit on.
Valerie Ling (18:03):
So one of the observations I have is that
sometimes the ministers don'thave the information that has
come from the church and we seeall kinds of denominations right
.
So denominations, code ofconduct, compliance and
confidentiality practices can bequite different, and sometimes
(18:24):
they, you know.
I've just gone back to mergersand acquisitions.
You know, before someoneactually, you know, decides to
merge and acquire something oran entity, you get a lot of
reports and there has to be ahigh degree of transparency.
And then you give the choice tosay OK, do I want to take this
on?
And this is no criticism on ourchurches and our systems.
(18:47):
I just think it's somethingthat maybe is going to need to
evolve.
Is you don't always have thatat hand.
Vikki Napier (18:57):
Yeah, yeah, really , and maybe we need to.
So maybe there needs to be somesort of like you're normally
without a minister.
If a minister leaves the church, it's normally a 12 month
process before somebody newcomes in.
12, you know, 12 to 18 monthsyou have a locum coming or an
(19:21):
acting rector, but they'rereally there to just keep the
wheels turning and I don't knowthat that they would be equipped
to run the congregation througha change management process.
But maybe we do need toidentify a change management
process to prepare thecongregation for the new
(19:42):
minister, because we don't wanta new minister coming in filling
the shoes of the old, muchloved minister who's now left us
.
And you know our previousminister didn't do it that way.
We want it done the way it usedto be done.
So running them through achange management piece may be a
(20:03):
healthy thing for thecongregation to prepare them for
the new rector to come in andleave them.
I don't know, that might besomething that I could actually
work on.
Valerie Ling (20:16):
I think it's fascinating.
I mean, I was so excited tohear that your role was being
brought in.
I really was.
I was like, oh yes, you know,this is this is this is going to
be so important, and I knowyou're new, so there is some
things that still you know youcan talk about and think about
and before you even get toimplement, but you know the
(20:36):
scenarios.
I think trust is such animportant commodity for any
organization and when someonenew is coming in, and
particularly if a church has hada lot of traumatic history or a
lot of conflict and brokenness,trust when a new person comes
in is all time low.
(20:57):
Yeah, and I think one of thethings I've been contemplating
is we expect our churches togrow, but everything that we
know about growth means you makemistakes, you take risks, you
need to be able to trust and bevulnerable.
So you know, if you've got aclimate where there isn't trust,
(21:19):
growth is going to besuperficial.
Hmm, vicky, what do you think?
Are we just overprofessionalizing church?
This sounds so complicated.
It's like you've got to go andhave a whole degree now in
learning and development andorganizing HR, psychology,
mergers and acquisitions, is it?
(21:40):
Yeah?
Vikki Napier (21:43):
It feels that it feels very complicated.
I think our systems, ourjustice systems, are quite
complicated as well.
You know where we've got thefrom a HR perspective that is,
we've got, you know, officeholders and an employee, so
falling under differentgoverning elements, if you like.
(22:04):
We've got you know we've gotministers who might move on
every 10 years, or we've gotsome who have been there for 20
years.
You know, I feel like ourstructures are quite complex.
So it is a complex, complicatedenvironment anyway, and the
only way you would clear that upis to get an eraser wipe it all
(22:28):
away.
Valerie Ling (22:29):
About again.
Vikki Napier (22:30):
Yeah, and honestly , to start again, because it's
very, it's very complex andclunky and whilst there's a lot
of, I guess, security for churchpositions, because of that
clunkiness there's no, there'svery little room to be vibrant
(22:53):
and agile in how church is aright place and you know how
churches are running.
So it feels, it does feelclunky to me, but I don't know
what the answer is, apart fromjust putting it all up and
making it simpler.
So we don't have the authorityto do that.
Valerie Ling (23:15):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going there.
(23:38):
In contrast with some of theother industries you've worked
in, you were saying that, sadly,very similar dynamics you've
seen.
Am I right to assume that it'sthe kind of dynamics with the
conflict and the forcefulleadership, those sorts of
things?
Vikki Napier (23:53):
Yeah.
So the environments that I'veworked in in the corporate world
were quite complex as well.
You've had people on onworkplace agreements, you had
people on common law contracts,you had people on enterprise
agreements, you had casuals, youhad part-timers.
It was all in a in a corecentre, very different to a
(24:18):
field workforce or aprofessional service workforce.
So they were all.
The beauty of working in such alarge organisation is to get
exposure to all those varioustypes of occupations, if you
like.
So there's the complexity ofthe landscape.
I find is is similar butdifferent, if that makes sense.
(24:42):
So we're not talking aboutenterprise agreements and things
like that, but we're talkingabout, you know, assistant
ministers, senior assistantministers, rectors, tenure.
You know lay ministers likeit's just all, and you've got
lay ministers working next tooffice holders doing the same
(25:02):
job but different conditions,like it is a complex HR
environment In terms of thebehaviours.
Yeah, I would have.
I wanted to.
Well, I was hopeful that Iwould see more grace and more
willingness to forgive withinour environment, but I haven't
(25:27):
seen that as often as I hadhoped.
So I feel that when I'm runningcoaching and training with
staff teams or coachingdirectors one-on-one with you,
know how do we manage this?
I always encourage them to onlygive feedback to somebody that
(25:50):
you care about and yourmotivation for providing that
feedback is because you want tosee them be a better person, not
because they did a sillymistake and you had to pick up
the pieces or you got frustratedwith them or everyone keeps
whinging to you about it and soyou've got to fix it.
So there's a little bit ofanger there.
(26:10):
You've got to provide feedbackto people because you want them
to be better and to be betterequipped to glorify God in that.
So your motivation needs to beother person-centred.
That's different to thecorporate environment where you
would just give feedback becauseyou've got a deadline to meet
(26:33):
or a bottom line to hit.
You know that sort of stuff.
I thought and I would hope andI hope that we will get there
that there is that desire toprovide feedback to people, as
hard as those conversations arebecause of the love you have for
that person, and then thatperson hearing that feedback to
(26:59):
have the humility and the graceto repent if it's a behavior,
and then the person providingthat feedback forgiving them for
it and then maybe prayingtogether and handing it over to
God because they're brothers andsisters or brothers and
brothers and we're called to dothat.
(27:20):
I don't see that happening alot.
I may not see it happening alot because those people who are
doing that don't need to callme.
So the ones who do call me,yeah.
I often find that church workersare quite hard on their rectors
as well and have an expectationthat they be perfect, and
(27:42):
there's very little forgivenessor grace by church workers
towards their rectors in that aswell.
I mean, rectors aren't people,managers.
They may be in one or two, mayhave come from the corporate
environment, but they've goneinto theological college to
train up to be rectors andpastors to preach and teach the
(28:05):
gospel to us so that we can beready for that wonderful day,
and so they're going to get HRstuff wrong, and so we just need
to give them a break and sayyou know what?
That's okay.
I know you snapped at me, Iknow that's not you and it's out
of frustration.
You've said sorry, I forgiveyou, it's me gone and it's all
(28:28):
authentic and genuine.
So that's what I would like tosee one day.
Valerie Ling (28:35):
And I'm curious what you think about.
Why, in a commercialenvironment, that how should I
put it that you can give thissort of feedback, and sometimes
the feedback doesn't come with agreat tone and it doesn't have
the same result, or maybe itdoes.
Are we really that different inour environments, or what's
(28:59):
that about?
Vikki Napier (29:00):
Well, I expected it to be different, because we
are Christians and we work in aChristian environment and God's
told us how we ought to beengaging with each other In a
corporate environment.
We're all there to do a job, topay our bills.
(29:21):
Really, you may enjoy it.
I enjoyed my job in thecorporate world, but that was
but it was a job.
It wasn't who I was because I'ma Christian, whereas when you
combine your identity as aChristian with the role that
you're in, I would expect thisto be different.
So, managing conduct orperformance issues within a
(29:46):
corporate environment, I didfind that there was pushback and
resistance.
I would encourage respect,reminding people that if
somebody's a poor performer,they're not a bad person.
They're just not skilled up inthose areas.
It's a skill issue, not a willissue.
Let's look at whether thatperson can be skilled up in that
(30:08):
role or whether there's abetter role for them or whether
this just isn't the role forthem.
No one wants to be unsuccessfulin their role.
So if they're not a goodperformer, then there may be
something else that they oughtto be doing.
But you can manage that withrespect for conduct.
We all make mistakes.
We do the wrong thing.
My response to people whobehaved in a way that resulted
(30:33):
in them losing their job wasalways to say to them this is a
consequence to what you did.
This is not who you are.
This doesn't have to be who youare.
Learn from this and just be abetter person.
Now, that was in the corporateenvironment.
I think that's the same in ourchurch environment as well.
(30:55):
We just need to be graciouswith one another.
Life seems busier and harderand more stressful anyway.
We ought to be distinct anddifferent in how we interact
with each other as brothers andsisters.
Valerie Ling (31:10):
I think part of the challenge is in a commercial
environment.
Sometimes it's hard, but youcan convince yourself that
there's a difference betweenyour performance and your person
, whereas I think in church veryoften we evaluate one another
in our person.
So if I haven't been doing the,the roster as well, it's like
(31:35):
have you been diligent andfaithful?
It comes down to character Inour environment.
So as a psychology practice, Icall it I don't think I should
say it on the podcast, but itrhymes with itchy and it starts
with W and B.
I call it that dynamics.
I'm confused for a long timegoing.
(31:56):
These are well trainedindividuals.
This is a highly professionaland regulated business and
industry.
Why does it devolve?
And I actually realized it'sbecause even in my profession as
a psychologist, your person andyour profession is fused.
It doesn't mean that I'm anidentity of success, but just,
(32:17):
you are the type of psychologistthat I am.
I'm loud and kind of energetic.
I don't take a lot of offenceif clients cancel and things
like that, but it's very fusedand I've always got to remind
myself and remind our team thatthere's the person and there's
(32:39):
the professional and always needto treat the person with
respect and care and integrityand consideration.
Sometimes the professionrequires us to say things that
will make us uncomfortable, butthen things aren't necessarily
fused.
Vikki Napier (32:56):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I can see that I guess we do find
our identity in our work and sowhen people are made redundant
or lose their jobs, they feelthat they've lost their identity
.
In the secular environment and Ican see in the church
(33:18):
environment it's weightier,because if you lose your job or
you're being caught out for poorperformance or something, then
you may feel that you've let Goddown and that's a weightier
kind of guilt trip I guess thatyou could face.
But yeah, maybe we need to workon our identity and recognize
(33:40):
that it's found in Christ,because we have that advantage
as Christians and we know thatGod has a plan for us and if
that plan is this job for thismoment and then he opens another
door or has other plans for us,then we should embrace that
because he's he planned that forus before the formation of the
(34:03):
world, you know.
So I wonder if we need all ofus need to do some work on our
identity and recognize that it'sfound in Christ and not in what
we do or what our title is andthings like that.
Valerie Ling (34:16):
I don't know.
Yes, of late, I would say.
Certainly, when I first startedpracticing with ministry folk
early on, so maybe about sevenor eight years ago, we had to do
a lot of work in that space.
Fast forward now it's a littlebit more varied.
I think what we're observing isthat sense of threat that comes
(34:38):
is because the threat that hasbeen thrown out is personal.
On social media your reputationcan be shredded.
The emails are attached to you.
Attack not you, just you, butyour wife and your kids.
Vikki Napier (34:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (34:51):
Versions towards that.
So what does tend to come?
Even if you do all of that selfwork to separate yourself from
your ministry, you can getfeedback and you can get these
sorts of things.
And I guess I'm curious whatyou think.
We had the ministry folk of mysurvey saying that one of the
(35:12):
reasons they would considerresigning was the impact on
family.
Now you can kind of interpretthat as in workload and the work
life interference.
But I also wonder if there's anelement of, unlike other jobs,
your whole family is exposed toall of that mess as well.
(35:33):
Maybe to one extent you can seeif you're married, your spouse
is being an adult, but if youalso have children, it's a very
hard dynamic to put them through.
Yes, and I would add that if wehad to sort of formulate the
(35:53):
types of conflict that we'reseeing in the ministry life,
these are not just disagreements.
I don't like the way that youpreach, or a kid hearing your
dad.
Sometimes he's just not funnyat all.
This is the sort of things ofbeing exposed to gossip, slander
, assassination.
(36:15):
If you don't want you, you'renot one of us, those sorts of
dynamics.
Vikki Napier (36:22):
I mean that should not be coming out of the mouths
of Christians and that's whatreally gets me riled up.
When I hear things about thatlike that, where our hardworking
church workers and I know itdoesn't only happen to directors
, but assistant ministers andother staff team are exposed to
(36:43):
that as well I really get angry.
Like it's as though we don'tthink that Jesus is with us all
the time and can see how we'rebehaving and treating one
another Like have peopleforgotten that?
Because I am aware that notonly directors get targeted but
their family gets targeted andthe children are impacted and it
(37:07):
is made to be personal.
It can occasionally be personalin the secular world if a
disgruntled employee can comeafter you, but when that happens
every now and then but in theparishes like shame on us really
it's about protections, I thinkin the workplace.
Valerie Ling (37:28):
You know, because we get so many updates to our
employee handbooks, it's notfunny, like literally it is not
funny.
But there are also protections.
You know, there are certainthings that, by virtue of your
conduct, if you are not fit forthe environment or you're posing
significant threat to theworkers, you know that's
actually it can be grounds fordismissal, like you can actually
(37:50):
say no to that.
But I also wonder whether someof the protections in the
ministry and I have to say itgoes both ways there are leaders
and staff on church who do thesame to congregants same thing.
I was actually just at theshops the other day, a very
popular cafe in our suburb.
I had put a sign on the Eftposmachine to say we are a very
(38:16):
busy cafe.
Please remember that our staffare human and be kind to them.
Oh yeah, whoa.
And I was looking at the staff.
You know they were relativelyyoung people.
How good.
Why do we need this?
Vikki Napier (38:30):
Yes, exactly, Exactly.
Look, I think we are.
We do need to provide a safeworking environment to our
clergy.
They so particularly employees,so lay ministers, particularly
because they fall under theemployment law.
(38:51):
But I would be consistentacross the board we need to
provide a safe workingenvironment.
If there are congregationmembers in our churches who are
attacking, or, you know,attacking our clergy in that way
, then we need to talk to themand rebuke them.
(39:14):
You know, the Bible is prettyclear.
You know, go to them on yourown and chat to them.
Take a brother or sister withyou.
If they still don't listen,Take, you know, the parish
council with you and then, ifthey still don't listen, then
maybe talk to them about findinganother church, because their
(39:34):
behaviour is harming, you know,the people that are remaining
here.
So, I mean, I know that'sdivisive and in practical terms
it might be difficult to do, butI feel like we need to start
reminding everyone, includingourselves, that we're Christian.
(39:55):
Jesus is with us.
We are called to show grace andkindness and mercy, to one
another in the first instance,and then to everybody else.
Why aren't we doing that?
Why do we think it's okay to,you know, to attack each other
and treat each other in that way.
Valerie Ling (40:16):
It's an escalating dynamic yeah.
Vikki Napier (40:19):
It is a dynamic.
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Well, any person or creature for that matter if
you push them into a corner,you're going to get some kind of
reaction.
That's not great.
There are many things that Iknow goes well in ministry.
I think, much like we see apointy end of things.
It's like oh my goodness,things aren't going well.
Vikki Napier (40:41):
I see a lot of good things as well.
I get to coach and train peopleproactively, and I love that.
Valerie Ling (40:46):
It's a great thing to finish on and I will ask you
the same questions.
I ask everybody what are someof the wonderful things that you
see in our ministers, in ourministries, in our churches?
Vikki Napier (41:02):
The wonderful oh, there's so many Like.
I can speak personally as aparishioner who has sat under
wonderful godly leadership eversince I became a Christian in
Anglican churches and that'strue today as it was 25, 30
years ago.
(41:22):
So I thank God for each ofthose ministers.
I think there are ministers outthere who are really burdened
and love their staff and God'speople to the point of laying
awake at night and worryingabout them, not in a just being
(41:48):
burdened by and not in a bad wayand looking at it in a real
like pushing, lamenting andbearing with one another's
burdens.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, I seethat all the time.
So that's a good thing.
I see I get calls fromministers sometimes who have
(42:11):
this situation and want to dothe right thing by the person
they need to manage whether it'sperformance, whether it's
behavioral.
They're looking for anintervention that will work and
restore the relationship.
And can I just say on yourpodcast please don't ignore
(42:32):
those little alerts as you goabout your business, because you
need to address them early,before they become massive.
So have the courage to addressthings as you see them and give
me a call if you want abrainstorm.
I'm a great listener and asounding board.
(42:53):
So if you want somebody outsideof your bubble, ring me and let
me know and we can talk throughsome strategies to address
things informally and, godwilling, effectively.
I see some ministers doing thatquite regularly and exercising
really godly wisdom.
They've committed the issue toprayer, they've spoken to me
(43:17):
from a HR perspective andthey've worked out what is best
for the situation, best for thebroader community and best for
this person.
And sometimes they are hardconversations that people need
to have, but one of thewonderful things is that there
are leaders in our churches whoare willing to exercise that
(43:38):
courage and take those steps forthe sake of everyone involved.
Valerie Ling (43:45):
I'd love to know, if there was a minister
listening to our conversationtoday, what's one thing you'd
really like them to walk awaywith, something that they could
think about or do?
Vikki Napier (44:04):
I would like them to take away from this is to
remember that they're in aprivileged position and it is a
powerful position, that they areservant leaders, but they are
loved and valued by us and we'reso grateful to God for them.
(44:28):
If they don't feel that loveand gratitude from their
parishioners, then that may notbe their fault.
It may be the simpleness oftheir parishioners, and maybe
there's a sermon series theycould preach on the fruit of the
(44:49):
spirits or something I don'tknow.
But I just want them to knowthat it's not an easy job that
they're doing, but we are sothankful for them in doing that
and to just persevere.
But to recognize too that ifit's just not for you, then
that's OK as well.
(45:09):
It doesn't make you a badperson.
So you are able to have otherdecisions.
And one thing I am working on,valerie, is identifying options
in the secular world.
If you don't like your job, yougo and get another job, maybe
in another industry, maybe awhole other vocation.
(45:30):
When you're a rector of thechurch, I think you may feel
stuck and that must be ahorrible feeling and it's not
good for you and it's not goodfor the congregation.
But you have no other options.
What are you going to do?
You could be a chaplain, andthe chaplaincy is wonderful, but
there are only so manychaplaincy roles, so I'm looking
(45:52):
at trying to create options aswell for those who may feel that
this is not for them.
So I just don't want to rush onany of that, because I think
the majority of rectors that wehave in our churches is just
wonderful and we're very blessedby God for them.
(46:13):
So that was a long-windedanswer that probably didn't
really answer your question.
Valerie Ling (46:18):
Oh, I think it did .
I think it did.
Thank you so much for takingtime to chat with me today,
Vicki.
Vikki Napier (46:24):
You're welcome.
Thank you for inviting me,Valerie.
Valerie Ling (46:30):
So after the interview, vicki and I continued
to chat and I think we realizedthat we really want to say that
there is a lot of greatchurches and a lot of great
clergy and a lot of greatrelationships out there, and
maybe that's what we need to dois to have some people who can
come on and talk about what doesmake for that healthy
(46:53):
partnerships.
And I also personally want tosay I know that there are
situations where churchleadership has not done the
right thing by congregations andthe people whom they're meant
to take care of, and that thereare definitely situations where
seniors and associates have alsonot done the right thing by
(47:18):
their assistants and theirassociates.
I'm becoming more and moreaware that, as we do this
podcast, that it is driven by myresearch, which was heavily
influenced by senior ministersand heavily influenced by the
data that showed that there wasa significant proportion who
(47:39):
have been going through a hardtime.
So I just want to put it outthere that if I get a chance to
redo some research, I will dig alot deeper to figure out, in
the 65% of the time whenchurches are doing well and
ministry staff are well, what'sgoing on there.
(48:02):
All right, that's all for today.
Thanks for listening to thepodcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Greetings friends.
It's another episode I havewith me here today Vicki Napier.
Hi, vicki.
Vikki Napier (00:39):
Hi Valerie, how are you going?
Valerie Ling (00:41):
I'm pretty well.
Thank you.
We've only had a couple ofinteractions.
Could you introduce yourselfand your role?
Vikki Napier (00:50):
Sure.
So I am Vikki Napier.
I'm the Parish HR Partner forthe Sydney Anglican Diocese.
It's a new role.
Well, when I say it's a newrole, it started just before
COVID.
So BC it was highlighted to methe other day that we have a new
meaning for BC now.
It's not before Christ, it'sbefore COVID.
(01:13):
So, yeah, and so still tryingto establish that role and help
Parishers, I guess, recognisethat they have a HR resource to
tap into at any time they need.
So trying to really encouragethem to reach out to me and so
(01:35):
that I can help them with HRstaff.
Valerie Ling (01:36):
Basically, and Vikki, where have you come from
in terms of your professionallife?
What sorts of work andindustries have you been in so
I've worked in corporate HRroles for large organisations.
Vikki Napier (01:50):
The most prominent one was in the
telecommunications industry andwithin that area we are looking
after course centres at onestage.
So a very interesting andtricky environment in and of
itself.
And also field staff, sotechnicians who will go out to
(02:13):
homes and businesses and helppeople with their
telecommunications solutions.
So that's the major kind offorming of my career.
But later on I became a casemanager where I was engaged to
work across all aspects of thatindustry in helping people to
(02:37):
manage performance orbehavioural issues and the odd
whistleblower complaint.
So very interesting.
Valerie Ling (02:45):
Fascinating and I'm curious, similarities and
differences now that you areworking in this context.
Vikki Napier (02:52):
Yes, Well there are some real differences.
Firstly, there are employeesand then there are office
holders, and so navigating thebest approach to honour the law
of the land but also acknowledgethat people are working side by
(03:15):
side with different, I guess,legal obligations.
So that's interesting.
Sadly, I have seen similarbehaviours inside churches as
those I witnessed outside, but Ididn't come down in the last
shower, so I know we're allsinful and we're just working
(03:36):
our way, doing the best we canto glorify God.
So that didn't come as a hugesurprise, but sometimes it's a
little disappointing but, let meadd, it's not often.
The majority of people withinour parishes are amazing,
working hard for the gospel, andI give God thanks for them each
(03:58):
and every day.
So, yeah, I'm wondering.
Valerie Ling (04:03):
you know, the survey that I did suggested that
something like 35% werethinking of resigning seriously
in the next 12 months, but thenthere are 65% who aren't.
I don't know if you can answerthis, but from your observations
, what makes the difference?
Vikki Napier (04:22):
Yeah, you know, parishioners or congregation
members can be a tough group to,I guess, under ship it.
So myself as a parishioner, Iknow I want to support and
encourage my minister and honourhis leadership over me.
(04:45):
I don't know that we asparishioners for the most part
recognise that.
So sometimes there are rectorswho are church workers who are
just facing really difficultsituations that we as lay people
you know we hinder theirministry rather than help it.
(05:08):
So I think that that's part ofit.
Sometimes people.
So you may have a rector who'sin a wonderful church with very
supportive parishioners who andthey're all working in
partnership for the sake of thegospel.
I think that can be reallyedifying and encouraging for the
minister and is a blueprint forhow all our churches should
(05:33):
operate.
But then you may have othersthat they're just facing
conflict all the time.
There are people in ourchurches who may think that the
staff workers and our clergy arethere to, you know, to order
around or to do what we say,instead of us honouring their
(05:55):
leadership.
So for that that can besomething that can wear a rector
out and cause them to just getdisheartened and want to at
least remove themselves fromthat environment, whether it
burns them to the extent wherethey want to step out of
ministry or not would depend onthat person in the situation.
(06:17):
But I think that there arethose components that would
depend on the church.
I think it also depends onsuitability.
I think if we've got, if we'reself aware, there may be some
church workers or clergy outthere who thought who may be
thinking you know what.
I thought this was for me, butI don't think this is where God
(06:39):
wants me at the moment.
That's okay, because my goal isto serve God for the rest of my
life, whether that's invocational ministry or whether
that's somewhere else.
Then let me be guided by God,but this doesn't feel like it's
where he wants me to be at themoment.
So there may be that sort ofthought process going on as well
.
Valerie Ling (06:58):
So yeah, and you mentioned self aware
Interestingly.
I don't know how the directiongoes because I you know we
didn't have enough power to dothe stats, but burnout was
related to lower levels of youknow, emotional, I guess,
processing and therefore insight.
(07:19):
You know, what do you see?
Vikki Napier (07:21):
Yeah, look, I see, I see humility in those who are
self aware, and that takes alot of courage, because when
you're self aware, you recognizeyour shortcomings and you
(07:42):
recognize that you can't do allof this on your own, and there's
a real humility and grace inthat.
I think.
When you, when you have yourback up against the wall, though
, and you feel that it's all,all conflict and all hard work,
then maybe you're in that.
I mean, you wouldn't know.
That's very, very, very scary.
(08:03):
But that fight you know thatfight or flight kind of
mentality you really need to putup the facade and and appear to
have everything you know incontrol, and you know you are
the leader, you've goteverything in control, so they
ought to listen to you, and thatcan be.
You know that that's the lackof awareness and the lack of
(08:27):
confidence in the people thatyou have around you as well.
I think it's really interesting,isn't it?
I feel that we all just need toremember how Jesus calls us to
behave with one another, youknow, because if, if ministers
(08:50):
humble and gracious as they leadJesus's flock, and the flock
people like myself humble andgracious and supportive of the
leadership that God has placedover us, then that's harmony and
that's the safe place forpeople to make mistakes.
We're all gonna make mistakes,so if a rector or a church
(09:13):
worker makes a mistake, theyshould be able to do that,
knowing that everyone'ssupporting them and you know
that's okay.
We're all human.
So I feel like, just as youthink about it, I feel a little
bit sad that church isn't reallylike that, that there's so much
pressure on our church workersto fit an image and to appear to
(09:39):
have it all together, becausethose in our churches, such as
myself, haven't reinforced ourthankfulness to God for placing
that leadership over us andhelping us to do life as
Christians.
Valerie Ling (09:57):
We can either have an element of you know, for me,
humility speaks to character,To me, vulnerability speaks to a
posture and attitude, and inthe case of what we're seeing
with these levels of conflict,that it's not always safe to be
(10:19):
vulnerable and say I don't know,I'm not sure.
Or you know, I feel like Idon't belong.
You know.
Vikki Napier (10:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So and that's, I guess that'sto the point that I was saying.
That really saddens me.
I want my minister, or myassistant minister, to you know,
be able to get things wrong andnot feel that they have to get
everything right all the timebecause if they don't get things
(10:48):
right they'll be jumped on andyou know that sort of stuff.
I think, yeah, I think thatvulnerability comes with, or
being able to be vulnerablecomes with, developing that
culture of trust and partnershipwith the congregation, and I
don't know that we do that well,I mean as parishioners as well.
(11:12):
So how do you build a culturewithin a church where you do
have this collaboration andeveryone recognizes there's role
clarity and everyone recognizeswhat their role is?
Mine is to support the churchworkers that God has placed over
me to do the ministry, torecognize their authority in
(11:36):
that and to serve humbly andgraciously to God's glory.
Maybe we need to do somecultural interventions in our
297 churches.
Valerie Ling (11:50):
I've been reflecting a lot on how
typically at least in the lastdecade, since I've been in
practice and doing this workthat we've taken a view of the
individual and interpersonaldynamics.
So, you know, there'd be likethe resilience and burnout
factor for our ministry workers,and how do we mediate and
(12:12):
navigate conflict between peoplein a church.
But more and more I've startedto think about organizational
design and the functions thatare possibly missing.
So for me and I could be wrong,tell me what you think
Different courses can play acompliance role and sometimes I
(12:34):
think that, particularly in theclients that we're seeing,
they've really got trapped inquite a lot of compliance issues
.
So there are conduct issues andalso things like needing to
tick a lot of boxes and theadmin goes up, and there's also
the organizational behavior, thedynamics of trust, the dynamics
(12:58):
of, you know, like what youwere saying, how do we create a
culture of value and a cultureof respect, and I'm almost
wondering whether that in and ofitself is something that we
wanna look at.
Vikki Napier (13:14):
Mm-mm.
Yes, yeah, I think so.
I think we've got this.
We've clearly got this problemat the moment and it's probably
existed for a very long timebecause of the nature of the
role I mean.
Now our church workers are atthe coalface for all those
(13:35):
significant events of everyone'slives and it's a lot of
emotional kind of baggage tocarry on behalf of the people
that you're caring for.
So looking at thosepreventative measures is a
really would be a really helpfulthing.
I'm just trying to think how youwould do that with the
(13:59):
congregation, because it needsto be a collaborative process
where everyone's workingtogether, where church workers
are hearing what theexpectations are of the
congregation members andcongregation members are hearing
the expectations that are basedon church workers.
And is that transparency ofexpectations?
(14:21):
I actually wonder if part of itlike if there is some sort of
contract sounds too formal, butwhen a rector comes to a new
church, maybe there's some sortof induction for the
congregation as well.
(14:42):
These are the expectations.
These are the things that youcan expect from me as your
rector.
These are the things that youhave said that you would like me
to do.
This is how I see us workingtogether.
I mean that sounds veryautocratic, but I wonder if
(15:02):
there's some sort of engagementpiece that when a new minister
begins at a new church,regardless of what has gone on
in the past, whether theprevious rector allowed, say,
the wardens and the parishcouncils to just run the church,
or whether there was a greatdeal of collaboration or
(15:25):
whatever the situation was Maybethere's an option of drawing a
line in the sand and justreminding everyone that this is
actually the role of the rector.
It's not to be at your beck andcore 24 seven, although he will
be because of his pastoraltendencies.
He loves you, your Christ'streasured possession, and he
(15:48):
wants to serve you.
But don't take advantage ofthat and remember he's a person
as well.
So he's also Christ's treasuredpossession.
And what are you going to do tosupport him, recognising that
he also is someone dearly andfeefully loved by Jesus?
So yeah, I wonder how you woulddo that.
Have you got any ideas?
Valerie Ling (16:09):
I know you and I want to get into a room with
white boards.
Vikki Napier (16:12):
There's always, definitely, I can't tell you
what boards?
Valerie Ling (16:16):
but I can already see at least six.
Yeah, yeah, I guess you weresaying that I personally am
reflecting on how much of thelast decade, when it comes to
selection and the fit ofministry candidates, it really
has been looked at from aselection and development matrix
, which I think is helpful whensomeone is first starting out in
(16:38):
ministry and they're beingabsorbed into a relatively
healthy, stable church.
But the more you're justtalking, I was thinking the
framework of rectors going intonew churches is almost more in
the realm of mergers andacquisitions.
It's conflictual, it's messy,there are all kinds of dynamics,
(16:58):
the change and thecommunication management that
comes from that, and I actuallywonder whether some of the
things that happens when we havethese sorts of disasters has
got to do with just we justhaven't merged or blended.
I mean, it's a lot like blendedfamilies, yeah, yeah, and in
both practices as well, thatwhole phase in a blended family
(17:21):
can take years.
Vikki Napier (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's true, and I think rectors very
wisely or the majority that Iknow and have spoken to, and
very wisely go to a new positionand try not to upset the apple
cart too quickly, like they maygive it 12 months to see a whole
(17:46):
cycle of how things are doneand then they'll start to
introduce changes.
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom and prayer that new
rectors like rectors coming intoa new church can sit on.
Valerie Ling (18:03):
So one of the observations I have is that
sometimes the ministers don'thave the information that has
come from the church and we seeall kinds of denominations right
.
So denominations, code ofconduct, compliance and
confidentiality practices can bequite different, and sometimes
(18:24):
they, you know.
I've just gone back to mergersand acquisitions.
You know, before someoneactually, you know, decides to
merge and acquire something oran entity, you get a lot of
reports and there has to be ahigh degree of transparency.
And then you give the choice tosay OK, do I want to take this
on?
And this is no criticism on ourchurches and our systems.
(18:47):
I just think it's somethingthat maybe is going to need to
evolve.
Is you don't always have thatat hand.
Vikki Napier (18:57):
Yeah, yeah, really , and maybe we need to.
So maybe there needs to be somesort of like you're normally
without a minister.
If a minister leaves the church, it's normally a 12 month
process before somebody newcomes in.
12, you know, 12 to 18 monthsyou have a locum coming or an
(19:21):
acting rector, but they'rereally there to just keep the
wheels turning and I don't knowthat that they would be equipped
to run the congregation througha change management process.
But maybe we do need toidentify a change management
process to prepare thecongregation for the new
(19:42):
minister, because we don't wanta new minister coming in filling
the shoes of the old, muchloved minister who's now left us
.
And you know our previousminister didn't do it that way.
We want it done the way it usedto be done.
So running them through achange management piece may be a
(20:03):
healthy thing for thecongregation to prepare them for
the new rector to come in andleave them.
I don't know, that might besomething that I could actually
work on.
Valerie Ling (20:16):
I think it's fascinating.
I mean, I was so excited tohear that your role was being
brought in.
I really was.
I was like, oh yes, you know,this is this is this is going to
be so important, and I knowyou're new, so there is some
things that still you know youcan talk about and think about
and before you even get toimplement, but you know the
(20:36):
scenarios.
I think trust is such animportant commodity for any
organization and when someonenew is coming in, and
particularly if a church has hada lot of traumatic history or a
lot of conflict and brokenness,trust when a new person comes
in is all time low.
(20:57):
Yeah, and I think one of thethings I've been contemplating
is we expect our churches togrow, but everything that we
know about growth means you makemistakes, you take risks, you
need to be able to trust and bevulnerable.
So you know, if you've got aclimate where there isn't trust,
(21:19):
growth is going to besuperficial.
Hmm, vicky, what do you think?
Are we just overprofessionalizing church?
This sounds so complicated.
It's like you've got to go andhave a whole degree now in
learning and development andorganizing HR, psychology,
mergers and acquisitions, is it?
(21:40):
Yeah?
Vikki Napier (21:43):
It feels that it feels very complicated.
I think our systems, ourjustice systems, are quite
complicated as well.
You know where we've got thefrom a HR perspective that is,
we've got, you know, officeholders and an employee, so
falling under differentgoverning elements, if you like.
(22:04):
We've got you know we've gotministers who might move on
every 10 years, or we've gotsome who have been there for 20
years.
You know, I feel like ourstructures are quite complex.
So it is a complex, complicatedenvironment anyway, and the
only way you would clear that upis to get an eraser wipe it all
(22:28):
away.
Valerie Ling (22:29):
About again.
Vikki Napier (22:30):
Yeah, and honestly , to start again, because it's
very, it's very complex andclunky and whilst there's a lot
of, I guess, security for churchpositions, because of that
clunkiness there's no, there'svery little room to be vibrant
(22:53):
and agile in how church is aright place and you know how
churches are running.
So it feels, it does feelclunky to me, but I don't know
what the answer is, apart fromjust putting it all up and
making it simpler.
So we don't have the authorityto do that.
Valerie Ling (23:15):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going there.
(23:38):
In contrast with some of theother industries you've worked
in, you were saying that, sadly,very similar dynamics you've
seen.
Am I right to assume that it'sthe kind of dynamics with the
conflict and the forcefulleadership, those sorts of
things?
Vikki Napier (23:53):
Yeah.
So the environments that I'veworked in in the corporate world
were quite complex as well.
You've had people on onworkplace agreements, you had
people on common law contracts,you had people on enterprise
agreements, you had casuals, youhad part-timers.
It was all in a in a corecentre, very different to a
(24:18):
field workforce or aprofessional service workforce.
So they were all.
The beauty of working in such alarge organisation is to get
exposure to all those varioustypes of occupations, if you
like.
So there's the complexity ofthe landscape.
I find is is similar butdifferent, if that makes sense.
(24:42):
So we're not talking aboutenterprise agreements and things
like that, but we're talkingabout, you know, assistant
ministers, senior assistantministers, rectors, tenure.
You know lay ministers likeit's just all, and you've got
lay ministers working next tooffice holders doing the same
(25:02):
job but different conditions,like it is a complex HR
environment In terms of thebehaviours.
Yeah, I would have.
I wanted to.
Well, I was hopeful that Iwould see more grace and more
willingness to forgive withinour environment, but I haven't
(25:27):
seen that as often as I hadhoped.
So I feel that when I'm runningcoaching and training with
staff teams or coachingdirectors one-on-one with you,
know how do we manage this?
I always encourage them to onlygive feedback to somebody that
(25:50):
you care about and yourmotivation for providing that
feedback is because you want tosee them be a better person, not
because they did a sillymistake and you had to pick up
the pieces or you got frustratedwith them or everyone keeps
whinging to you about it and soyou've got to fix it.
So there's a little bit ofanger there.
(26:10):
You've got to provide feedbackto people because you want them
to be better and to be betterequipped to glorify God in that.
So your motivation needs to beother person-centred.
That's different to thecorporate environment where you
would just give feedback becauseyou've got a deadline to meet
(26:33):
or a bottom line to hit.
You know that sort of stuff.
I thought and I would hope andI hope that we will get there
that there is that desire toprovide feedback to people, as
hard as those conversations arebecause of the love you have for
that person, and then thatperson hearing that feedback to
(26:59):
have the humility and the graceto repent if it's a behavior,
and then the person providingthat feedback forgiving them for
it and then maybe prayingtogether and handing it over to
God because they're brothers andsisters or brothers and
brothers and we're called to dothat.
(27:20):
I don't see that happening alot.
I may not see it happening alot because those people who are
doing that don't need to callme.
So the ones who do call me,yeah.
I often find that church workersare quite hard on their rectors
as well and have an expectationthat they be perfect, and
(27:42):
there's very little forgivenessor grace by church workers
towards their rectors in that aswell.
I mean, rectors aren't people,managers.
They may be in one or two, mayhave come from the corporate
environment, but they've goneinto theological college to
train up to be rectors andpastors to preach and teach the
(28:05):
gospel to us so that we can beready for that wonderful day,
and so they're going to get HRstuff wrong, and so we just need
to give them a break and sayyou know what?
That's okay.
I know you snapped at me, Iknow that's not you and it's out
of frustration.
You've said sorry, I forgiveyou, it's me gone and it's all
(28:28):
authentic and genuine.
So that's what I would like tosee one day.
Valerie Ling (28:35):
And I'm curious what you think about.
Why, in a commercialenvironment, that how should I
put it that you can give thissort of feedback, and sometimes
the feedback doesn't come with agreat tone and it doesn't have
the same result, or maybe itdoes.
Are we really that different inour environments, or what's
(28:59):
that about?
Vikki Napier (29:00):
Well, I expected it to be different, because we
are Christians and we work in aChristian environment and God's
told us how we ought to beengaging with each other In a
corporate environment.
We're all there to do a job, topay our bills.
(29:21):
Really, you may enjoy it.
I enjoyed my job in thecorporate world, but that was
but it was a job.
It wasn't who I was because I'ma Christian, whereas when you
combine your identity as aChristian with the role that
you're in, I would expect thisto be different.
So, managing conduct orperformance issues within a
(29:46):
corporate environment, I didfind that there was pushback and
resistance.
I would encourage respect,reminding people that if
somebody's a poor performer,they're not a bad person.
They're just not skilled up inthose areas.
It's a skill issue, not a willissue.
Let's look at whether thatperson can be skilled up in that
(30:08):
role or whether there's abetter role for them or whether
this just isn't the role forthem.
No one wants to be unsuccessfulin their role.
So if they're not a goodperformer, then there may be
something else that they oughtto be doing.
But you can manage that withrespect for conduct.
We all make mistakes.
We do the wrong thing.
My response to people whobehaved in a way that resulted
(30:33):
in them losing their job wasalways to say to them this is a
consequence to what you did.
This is not who you are.
This doesn't have to be who youare.
Learn from this and just be abetter person.
Now, that was in the corporateenvironment.
I think that's the same in ourchurch environment as well.
(30:55):
We just need to be graciouswith one another.
Life seems busier and harderand more stressful anyway.
We ought to be distinct anddifferent in how we interact
with each other as brothers andsisters.
Valerie Ling (31:10):
I think part of the challenge is in a commercial
environment.
Sometimes it's hard, but youcan convince yourself that
there's a difference betweenyour performance and your person
, whereas I think in church veryoften we evaluate one another
in our person.
So if I haven't been doing the,the roster as well, it's like
(31:35):
have you been diligent andfaithful?
It comes down to character Inour environment.
So as a psychology practice, Icall it I don't think I should
say it on the podcast, but itrhymes with itchy and it starts
with W and B.
I call it that dynamics.
I'm confused for a long timegoing.
(31:56):
These are well trainedindividuals.
This is a highly professionaland regulated business and
industry.
Why does it devolve?
And I actually realized it'sbecause even in my profession as
a psychologist, your person andyour profession is fused.
It doesn't mean that I'm anidentity of success, but just,
(32:17):
you are the type of psychologistthat I am.
I'm loud and kind of energetic.
I don't take a lot of offenceif clients cancel and things
like that, but it's very fusedand I've always got to remind
myself and remind our team thatthere's the person and there's
(32:39):
the professional and always needto treat the person with
respect and care and integrityand consideration.
Sometimes the professionrequires us to say things that
will make us uncomfortable, butthen things aren't necessarily
fused.
Vikki Napier (32:56):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I can see that I guess we do find
our identity in our work and sowhen people are made redundant
or lose their jobs, they feelthat they've lost their identity
.
In the secular environment and Ican see in the church
(33:18):
environment it's weightier,because if you lose your job or
you're being caught out for poorperformance or something, then
you may feel that you've let Goddown and that's a weightier
kind of guilt trip I guess thatyou could face.
But yeah, maybe we need to workon our identity and recognize
(33:40):
that it's found in Christ,because we have that advantage
as Christians and we know thatGod has a plan for us and if
that plan is this job for thismoment and then he opens another
door or has other plans for us,then we should embrace that
because he's he planned that forus before the formation of the
(34:03):
world, you know.
So I wonder if we need all ofus need to do some work on our
identity and recognize that it'sfound in Christ and not in what
we do or what our title is andthings like that.
Valerie Ling (34:16):
I don't know.
Yes, of late, I would say.
Certainly, when I first startedpracticing with ministry folk
early on, so maybe about sevenor eight years ago, we had to do
a lot of work in that space.
Fast forward now it's a littlebit more varied.
I think what we're observing isthat sense of threat that comes
(34:38):
is because the threat that hasbeen thrown out is personal.
On social media your reputationcan be shredded.
The emails are attached to you.
Attack not you, just you, butyour wife and your kids.
Vikki Napier (34:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (34:51):
Versions towards that.
So what does tend to come?
Even if you do all of that selfwork to separate yourself from
your ministry, you can getfeedback and you can get these
sorts of things.
And I guess I'm curious whatyou think.
We had the ministry folk of mysurvey saying that one of the
(35:12):
reasons they would considerresigning was the impact on
family.
Now you can kind of interpretthat as in workload and the work
life interference.
But I also wonder if there's anelement of, unlike other jobs,
your whole family is exposed toall of that mess as well.
(35:33):
Maybe to one extent you can seeif you're married, your spouse
is being an adult, but if youalso have children, it's a very
hard dynamic to put them through.
Yes, and I would add that if wehad to sort of formulate the
(35:53):
types of conflict that we'reseeing in the ministry life,
these are not just disagreements.
I don't like the way that youpreach, or a kid hearing your
dad.
Sometimes he's just not funnyat all.
This is the sort of things ofbeing exposed to gossip, slander
, assassination.
(36:15):
If you don't want you, you'renot one of us, those sorts of
dynamics.
Vikki Napier (36:22):
I mean that should not be coming out of the mouths
of Christians and that's whatreally gets me riled up.
When I hear things about thatlike that, where our hardworking
church workers and I know itdoesn't only happen to directors
, but assistant ministers andother staff team are exposed to
(36:43):
that as well I really get angry.
Like it's as though we don'tthink that Jesus is with us all
the time and can see how we'rebehaving and treating one
another Like have peopleforgotten that?
Because I am aware that notonly directors get targeted but
their family gets targeted andthe children are impacted and it
(37:07):
is made to be personal.
It can occasionally be personalin the secular world if a
disgruntled employee can comeafter you, but when that happens
every now and then but in theparishes like shame on us really
it's about protections, I thinkin the workplace.
Valerie Ling (37:28):
You know, because we get so many updates to our
employee handbooks, it's notfunny, like literally it is not
funny.
But there are also protections.
You know, there are certainthings that, by virtue of your
conduct, if you are not fit forthe environment or you're posing
significant threat to theworkers, you know that's
actually it can be grounds fordismissal, like you can actually
(37:50):
say no to that.
But I also wonder whether someof the protections in the
ministry and I have to say itgoes both ways there are leaders
and staff on church who do thesame to congregants same thing.
I was actually just at theshops the other day, a very
popular cafe in our suburb.
I had put a sign on the Eftposmachine to say we are a very
(38:16):
busy cafe.
Please remember that our staffare human and be kind to them.
Oh yeah, whoa.
And I was looking at the staff.
You know they were relativelyyoung people.
How good.
Why do we need this?
Vikki Napier (38:30):
Yes, exactly, Exactly.
Look, I think we are.
We do need to provide a safeworking environment to our
clergy.
They so particularly employees,so lay ministers, particularly
because they fall under theemployment law.
(38:51):
But I would be consistentacross the board we need to
provide a safe workingenvironment.
If there are congregationmembers in our churches who are
attacking, or, you know,attacking our clergy in that way
, then we need to talk to themand rebuke them.
(39:14):
You know, the Bible is prettyclear.
You know, go to them on yourown and chat to them.
Take a brother or sister withyou.
If they still don't listen,Take, you know, the parish
council with you and then, ifthey still don't listen, then
maybe talk to them about findinganother church, because their
(39:34):
behaviour is harming, you know,the people that are remaining
here.
So, I mean, I know that'sdivisive and in practical terms
it might be difficult to do, butI feel like we need to start
reminding everyone, includingourselves, that we're Christian.
(39:55):
Jesus is with us.
We are called to show grace andkindness and mercy, to one
another in the first instance,and then to everybody else.
Why aren't we doing that?
Why do we think it's okay to,you know, to attack each other
and treat each other in that way.
Valerie Ling (40:16):
It's an escalating dynamic yeah.
Vikki Napier (40:19):
It is a dynamic.
Valerie Ling (40:20):
Well, any person or creature for that matter if
you push them into a corner,you're going to get some kind of
reaction.
That's not great.
There are many things that Iknow goes well in ministry.
I think, much like we see apointy end of things.
It's like oh my goodness,things aren't going well.
Vikki Napier (40:41):
I see a lot of good things as well.
I get to coach and train peopleproactively, and I love that.
Valerie Ling (40:46):
It's a great thing to finish on and I will ask you
the same questions.
I ask everybody what are someof the wonderful things that you
see in our ministers, in ourministries, in our churches?
Vikki Napier (41:02):
The wonderful oh, there's so many Like.
I can speak personally as aparishioner who has sat under
wonderful godly leadership eversince I became a Christian in
Anglican churches and that'strue today as it was 25, 30
years ago.
(41:22):
So I thank God for each ofthose ministers.
I think there are ministers outthere who are really burdened
and love their staff and God'speople to the point of laying
awake at night and worryingabout them, not in a just being
(41:48):
burdened by and not in a bad wayand looking at it in a real
like pushing, lamenting andbearing with one another's
burdens.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, I seethat all the time.
So that's a good thing.
I see I get calls fromministers sometimes who have
(42:11):
this situation and want to dothe right thing by the person
they need to manage whether it'sperformance, whether it's
behavioral.
They're looking for anintervention that will work and
restore the relationship.
And can I just say on yourpodcast please don't ignore
(42:32):
those little alerts as you goabout your business, because you
need to address them early,before they become massive.
So have the courage to addressthings as you see them and give
me a call if you want abrainstorm.
I'm a great listener and asounding board.
(42:53):
So if you want somebody outsideof your bubble, ring me and let
me know and we can talk throughsome strategies to address
things informally and, godwilling, effectively.
I see some ministers doing thatquite regularly and exercising
really godly wisdom.
They've committed the issue toprayer, they've spoken to me
(43:17):
from a HR perspective andthey've worked out what is best
for the situation, best for thebroader community and best for
this person.
And sometimes they are hardconversations that people need
to have, but one of thewonderful things is that there
are leaders in our churches whoare willing to exercise that
(43:38):
courage and take those steps forthe sake of everyone involved.
Valerie Ling (43:45):
I'd love to know, if there was a minister
listening to our conversationtoday, what's one thing you'd
really like them to walk awaywith, something that they could
think about or do?
Vikki Napier (44:04):
I would like them to take away from this is to
remember that they're in aprivileged position and it is a
powerful position, that they areservant leaders, but they are
loved and valued by us and we'reso grateful to God for them.
(44:28):
If they don't feel that loveand gratitude from their
parishioners, then that may notbe their fault.
It may be the simpleness oftheir parishioners, and maybe
there's a sermon series theycould preach on the fruit of the
(44:49):
spirits or something I don'tknow.
But I just want them to knowthat it's not an easy job that
they're doing, but we are sothankful for them in doing that
and to just persevere.
But to recognize too that ifit's just not for you, then
that's OK as well.
(45:09):
It doesn't make you a badperson.
So you are able to have otherdecisions.
And one thing I am working on,valerie, is identifying options
in the secular world.
If you don't like your job, yougo and get another job, maybe
in another industry, maybe awhole other vocation.
(45:30):
When you're a rector of thechurch, I think you may feel
stuck and that must be ahorrible feeling and it's not
good for you and it's not goodfor the congregation.
But you have no other options.
What are you going to do?
You could be a chaplain, andthe chaplaincy is wonderful, but
there are only so manychaplaincy roles, so I'm looking
(45:52):
at trying to create options aswell for those who may feel that
this is not for them.
So I just don't want to rush onany of that, because I think
the majority of rectors that wehave in our churches is just
wonderful and we're very blessedby God for them.
(46:13):
So that was a long-windedanswer that probably didn't
really answer your question.
Valerie Ling (46:18):
Oh, I think it did .
I think it did.
Thank you so much for takingtime to chat with me today,
Vicki.
Vikki Napier (46:24):
You're welcome.
Thank you for inviting me,Valerie.
Valerie Ling (46:30):
So after the interview, vicki and I continued
to chat and I think we realizedthat we really want to say that
there is a lot of greatchurches and a lot of great
clergy and a lot of greatrelationships out there, and
maybe that's what we need to dois to have some people who can
come on and talk about what doesmake for that healthy
(46:53):
partnerships.
And I also personally want tosay I know that there are
situations where churchleadership has not done the
right thing by congregations andthe people whom they're meant
to take care of, and that thereare definitely situations where
seniors and associates have alsonot done the right thing by
(47:18):
their assistants and theirassociates.
I'm becoming more and moreaware that, as we do this
podcast, that it is driven by myresearch, which was heavily
influenced by senior ministersand heavily influenced by the
data that showed that there wasa significant proportion who
(47:39):
have been going through a hardtime.
So I just want to put it outthere that if I get a chance to
redo some research, I will dig alot deeper to figure out, in
the 65% of the time whenchurches are doing well and
ministry staff are well, what'sgoing on there.
(48:02):
All right, that's all for today.
Thanks for listening to thepodcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
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