November 1, 2023 • 50 mins
As our season draws to a close, I began to contemplate leadership in a wider context, beyond just Australia and parish settings, I was drawn to explore international issues of leadership in gospel work.
In this episode we are joined by A.J. Mathieu president of The Malphurs Group.
A.J. Mathieu has over 25 years of experience as a business owner, 5 years as an elected official serving local and regional constituencies in north Texas, and joined The Malphurs Group in 2014. He co-hosts the Church Revitalization Podcast with Vice-President Scott Ball. A.J. leads the Strategic Envisioning process in the United States with a limited number of churches each year but spends most of his time on TMG’s international efforts to strengthen churches and build leaders worldwide. He is an international conference speaker and has worked with church leaders in Europe, Africa, South America, and Asia.
In this episode, A.J. reflects on my findings, and what he sees in the international church leadership scene.
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Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:01):
Dear listener, welcome to another episode of
the Clergy Wellbeing Down Underpodcast.
It's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI am your host for today.
The podcast is being producedunder the banner of the Centre
for Effective Serving, which isa leadership and workplace
well-being consulting arm that Ilead.
(00:21):
I also lead a Centre forEffective Living, which is a
psychology practice located inSydney.
Many of our psychologists areChristians and on any given week
are supporting our ministry andmission families of here in
Australia and around the world.
(00:43):
We are currently recruiting fortwo full-time equivalent
positions, that is, forpsychologists to join the Centre
for Effective Living to workwith us in our mission to see a
world without burnout.
If you know someone who is aregistered psychologist, a
(01:04):
student who is soon to be aregistered psychologist, someone
who is planning to move toAustralia and would love to be
registered as a psychologist,would you send them our way?
The best thing to do is to sendthem a link
wwweffectivelivercomau, slashjoin-our-team.
(01:27):
I'll put the link in thepodcast description as well.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Welcome everybody.
I am so privileged to bespeaking with AJ Mathieu from
the Malphurs Group.
(01:47):
Welcome, AJ.
A.J. Mathieu (01:49):
Hi, valerie, nice to be here.
Valerie Ling (01:51):
Now you have a very successful podcast.
It's very impressive.
You were telling me somethinglike 4000 downloads a month.
Is that right?
A.J. Mathieu (02:00):
Yeah, I guess, depending on your scale or what
you're impressed by, you couldsay that's successful.
I don't know.
Valerie Ling (02:08):
Please introduce yourself, what you do, the work,
the organization and yourpodcast.
A.J. Mathieu (02:15):
Yeah well, the podcast is called the Church
Revitalization Podcast.
We've been doing that for alittle over three years now and
it's weekly.
You can find that wherever youget podcasts On the president of
the Malfers Group.
We're a ministry based here inthe United States, in Texas,
founded by the late Dr AubreyMalfers, who is a professor at
(02:35):
Dallas Theological Seminary anda prolific author of leadership
and strategic planning forchurches, books, and so we I
mean in a nutshell we just helpchurches do what their mandate
is from Christ to do, and thatis to make and mature disciples
of Jesus.
So we help them plan out livingon mission and organizing their
(03:00):
ministries in an effective wayto disciple people and bring the
gospel to the nations.
So we've done that for manyyears in the US, and now we have
the joy and pleasure of doingthat globally as well, on many
continents.
So it's been a really funministry experience.
Valerie Ling (03:18):
We spoke several years ago when I was trying to
figure out this thing calledchurch leadership.
So as a clinical psychologist,mainly just looking and saying
you know how can I inform myclinical practice with some of
the issues that were coming inthrough the practice and picked
up a couple of books from yourgroup and I've actually
(03:40):
implemented one of the.
We have a program called thestress management resiliency
group.
It's a bit of a boring name butit is.
That is what we do with theBible college students.
You know six modules to preparethem for ministry and to
prepare them for resiliency andwhat to expect, and one of them
(04:01):
is about ministry values.
So your personal values, butalso looking at your ministry
values and becoming more awareof that when you are starting
ministry.
So at that point, having read acouple of your books or, you
know, books from your groupreached out to you, and that was
(04:21):
before the pandemic.
A.J. Mathieu (04:23):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (04:24):
And you and I chatted not too long ago and you
were saying that actually,since the pandemic that's even
grown, the ministry that youhave to be on the US to be quite
international.
A.J. Mathieu (04:36):
Yeah, that's right , the catalyst really was the
pandemic.
You know, that was the visionof our ministry was to expand
that way for many years.
But it was really, when youknow, the world shut down.
Everybody went online andpastors were scrambling for
resources and you know, likewhat do we do now?
And so, yeah, I'm fortunatethat we were prepared to receive
(05:01):
them.
You know, the first thing thatwe did that really developed
some great relationships was westarted organizing online
cohorts and we had them set uplike different days of the week
on different time zones, so thatwe could just get together and
sort of host small collectionsof pastors from different places
(05:21):
around the world just to talkabout ideas from technology to
communicating with ourcongregations and being able to
carry on some semblance ofdiscipleship like we had been
doing, you know, just daysbefore.
So that really we formed somereally great relationships
through those cohorts and itreally just broadened our reach.
Valerie Ling (05:46):
So I'd say you'd have your pulse on what's
happening around the world withregards to the church leadership
space.
What seems to be coming up?
What are some of the issuesthat you hear about?
A.J. Mathieu (05:59):
Oh gosh, well, you know.
So leadership is an interestingtopic in the church and how it
might be different, you know,from culture to culture and
continent to continent.
So you know there's repetitivethings that I think every church
experiences in the context.
In those then come in whattheir cultures are like, you
know, from guilt, innocence,culture versus honor, shame
(06:20):
culture, and in you know these,the different worldviews that
people have or the lens in whichthey view the world.
So, but you know, I mean therepetitive things are always the
sense of being all alone.
You know, as, as pastors, theoverwhelming majority of
churches in the United Statesand around the world are very
(06:42):
small.
You know it's the mega churchesare a very small minority of
churches, or even those thathave multiple staff.
So most pastors out there havea have a great sense of being
all alone in ministry, and soyou know I think that's why you
know people doing the work thatyou do, valerie, is really
(07:04):
important to get to know whatthose struggles are and, you
know, help them with witheffective coping mechanisms and
and things to continue toperform at the highest level
that they can.
So dealing with yourself inministry certainly is a common
leadership issue, but thendealing with people, because
leadership in general is notsomething that is really taught
(07:26):
in most seminaries.
If it is, it's maybe one or twoclasses, kind of an overview,
but most pastors are not comingout of you know, their education
prepared to lead organizationsand to lead people and to deal
with personalities or even tounderstand their own personality
and how they relate to others.
So these are the things thatare very common that we see.
(07:49):
You know, we actually thisweek's episode we just did, we
were just recorded today ontoxic leadership in the church.
So you know, taking sort of badbehavior to extremes and
narcissism and similar you knowpersonality pitfalls.
Valerie Ling (08:10):
Well, let's go there.
I was hoping you and I couldhave a conversation about
leadership in that that was oneof the well, the survey that I
did came out of a masters ofleadership, so I had to look at
leadership.
I was interested in it and oneof the things that I was curious
about was the pathway todestructive leadership.
(08:30):
You know, from that range ofbeing ineffective, inappropriate
, unhelpful, forceful, toabusive and toxic.
What are some of the thingsthat you're seeing?
A.J. Mathieu (08:43):
Well, you know, I think the, the.
I think that one of the biggestthings to that enables toxic
leadership is poor structure inthe church, authority structure
in the church.
You have to have an environmentconducive to toxic leadership
for it to thrive and this is byno no intentional design by, you
(09:05):
know, church leaders over thedecades and centuries.
But.
But a lot of churches you knowtoday are unfortunately
structured in a way wherethere's very little
accountability for a pastor.
And again, we're talking aboutthe majority of churches being
smaller.
So there's it's not likethere's a big staff team, but
even small churches.
If you don't have some sort ofoversight board or council in
(09:30):
place in which the pastor iscomfortable operating, has a
level of accountability, thenit's just an environment in
which someone that might havepersonality, traits that would
allow them to go that way.
Could, you know, kind of godeeper into that?
Perhaps unintentionally,perhaps intentionally?
Sin does exist in the world andin the church, but but yeah, I
(09:55):
think the biggest issue withallowing toxic leadership to
thrive is environments thatallow it to thrive.
Valerie Ling (10:03):
One of my observations, having now gone
into churches to, I guess, toobserve and understand what
happens, is I wonder whethertrust in a biblical sense, when
we talk about submission, it'salmost like we can also
(10:24):
surrender to a kind ofunthinking trust.
So just because you're theleader and we're meant to submit
, I will give you trust, whereasI think in organizational
context, I think trust has to beearned.
You've got to be slow andcareful and watchful, and before
(10:45):
you actually fully give overyour trust in an organization,
what do you think?
A.J. Mathieu (10:50):
Well, yes, I mean, my personality is one that
doesn't automatically allowtrust.
I guess I don't know I wasgoing to say even respect.
Of course I do.
No one has to earn my respectfor me to be pleasant to them
and cordial and act in arespectful manner.
(11:11):
But to truly respect somebody,I think that's based on their
actions.
You can give them a cursorylevel of respect or honor or
trust, but I do believe thatthat becomes earned.
But yeah, in the church we aretaught to honor those that God
(11:31):
has put in positions ofauthority and the nature of
Christ in kindness and honor andrespect.
Yeah, I mean, those arepositive attributes.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(11:51):
So I think the blame again ismore on the leader's side for
taking advantage of that andeven manipulating it so that
they can retain that level ofpower or control.
So, yeah, there's nothing wrongwith a new pastor comes to your
church, you automatically wouldlove to befriend him and
(12:14):
obviously show kindness andhospitality.
But also I think they wouldcome in with somewhat of an
automatic level of trust thatyou would give them and
authority for them to presentGod's word to you or to counsel
you.
Yeah, I mean, that's why whenthere are hurts in the church
(12:36):
because of toxic leadership.
It's so hurtfully.
I think as believers we wouldbe hurt differently or deeper,
because it's not a good thing.
It's not only offensive, maybejust interpersonally, but also
spiritually hurtful.
So, yeah, I think pastorsshould be held to a higher
(13:01):
standard than just some generalorganization, some CEO somewhere
.
We should expect more from themto be living out the word of
God and the character of God.
Valerie Ling (13:16):
Yeah, and it comes to awareness as well.
So, coming from a professionlike mine, where we are trained
from the ground about the powerdynamic we are taught One of the
most powerful classes I tookwhen I was training in
psychology was when we weredoing child psychology and the
(13:37):
lecturer came in and for thefirst class she put half of us
to be on our knees and half ofus would be just regular height
and we had to do the entireclass that way.
Yeah, we couldn't sit at ourtables, we had to be on our
knees and we were constantlylooking up and if we needed a
pen or whatever, and obviouslyshe had to debrief that because
(13:58):
it was so powerful.
I was one of the ones on myknees.
I had not realized that whenyou look at, when you go through
life in the world smaller thansomeone else, how helpless you
feel, how dependent you are, andthat was meant to teach us that
, no matter what we think, thereis always a power differential
(14:21):
in the room.
When you're a psychologist, andalso when you're working with
children and we learn thatawareness.
But I don't know whether inministry, in leadership, whether
that awareness is formed sothat you don't just understand
and label that there's a powerdifferential.
But you've actually workedthrough it.
(14:42):
I'm not so sure.
A.J. Mathieu (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
Again, I don't think these arethe kinds of things that your
average pastor is being taught,or being taught in more of an
environment such as that, whereyou can get this tangible sense
of that power differential, butit may be discussed, but not
(15:04):
experienced.
So, yeah, I mean, I thinkthere's a lot of value in doing
your own discovery, even thedisk and things like that, just
understanding your personalityand how you relate to other
people.
I think that those are allvaluable things that any leader
(15:26):
would benefit from to bestmanage yourself and those around
you.
Of course, as a pastor, whetheryou've got paid staff or
volunteer staff, I mean, you'vegot a team that you're supposed
to be leading towards a sharedgoal, the mission of the church,
and then be leading yourcongregation into that as well.
(15:48):
So the greater you can grow ineffectiveness as a leader again,
we're talking church, we're nottalking secular or world, we're
talking church so the greateryou can grow as an effective
leader, the greater kingdomgrowth we have and gospel
expansion.
So I think these are just toolsthat pastors, leaders, should
(16:13):
seek so that they can grow inthat way.
Valerie Ling (16:16):
I'm curious.
You've mentioned now that we'rea church, we're not an
organization and it strikes methat we suddenly in Australia
I'm not sure what it's like inthe US we organize ourselves as
a commercial organization, anygroup of people.
They get together, they're agroup, but then when you're
starting to need to structureand have procedures and deal
with human resources, you reallybecome an organization.
(16:38):
Do you see that as being?
It is very, very different, thechurch as an organization?
A.J. Mathieu (16:48):
Well, I mean, that certainly adds a huge layer of
complexity.
You know, yeah, if you werejust a house church, you know,
just really completely focusedon just, you know, worship and
discipleship and Bibleinstruction, yes, that's a
simpler environment.
But yeah, here in the US aswell, you know, I mean, churches
(17:09):
form as corporations and mostnot all you know, then go
through the process of becomingfederally nonprofit
organizations and so, yeah,there's, you know, and then
we've there's reportingrequirements and HR things that
you have to do with the staffteam.
Yes, this is an entireadditional layer of complexity
(17:33):
than simply managing thespiritual health and growth of
people.
So I guess you know that's a Idon't know if that's an
unfortunate side effect of.
You know, just modern times andthe way the, the way the world
is now and the way churches andgovernments relate to one
another, but you know it'sbecome the norm.
(17:56):
So everybody is sort of they'reprepared to operate in that
environment.
Valerie Ling (18:00):
Now, it's not, it's not a surprise, you know,
whenever you get into ministry,and so the you know what you
said initially, that you know ifyou were a church like a house
church and you were concernedwith the preaching and the
teaching and the discipleshipand the worship, that really
just sounds to me like the corebusiness of the church, right,
Right, and you and I had a chatabout you know leadership styles
(18:23):
, servant leadership,transformation leadership, and I
kind of have a hypothesis thatin that what you just said, that
the the simpler expression ofminute of organized church, you
know, flatter structures,smaller size, less connected to
governmental structures, if youlike, that servant leadership
(18:44):
and it's not necessarily aboutbeing servant hearted but a
cooperative where we mix and welead from within can work and
that.
That that seems to me like ifyou're not aware of leadership,
the more complex your churchbecomes and you don't adapt your
leadership style, you mightalso be in trouble.
A.J. Mathieu (19:07):
Yeah, for sure, because most pastors, like on
the disc, most pastors are an S.
Valerie Ling (19:16):
And to what's that ?
Let's define that, just in casethey want to.
A.J. Mathieu (19:21):
Let's define it.
Yeah, so the S on the disc.
What's the official word forthat?
Is it steady?
I think it's steady.
So, yeah, I mean it's thatpastoral nature, that caring
nature, that relationship-drivennature, as opposed to the D.
That's the dominant personality, the more driven personality,
the I.
(19:41):
A lot of pastors, though,operate in the I, which is that
influencer.
They're very comfortable up infront of people and then back
around to the C, theconscientious, the people that
are good at planning, and theycan make charts and lists as
your accountants.
Valerie Ling (20:02):
So yeah, most the pastors D is dominant.
D is dominant.
A.J. Mathieu (20:07):
Yes, d is dominant .
Yeah, so most pastors get intoministry because they care for
people, they care for God's word.
They want a shepherd.
That would be.
I guess the Christian S versionof the disc was shepherding.
So, yeah, it's hard for them tooperate in more of an
(20:30):
organizational leader role.
It's just not the typicalpersonality of a pastor.
So what's important then is tobuild a team, and in larger
churches a really beneficialposition is like an executive
pastor.
That's a luxury position in thechurch, so you need to be
larger and have a bigger budgetto have that.
(20:51):
But that becomes your key manthat is maybe dealing with staff
things and organizationalthings and all the finance
aspects.
Basically, it would allow ashepherding-hearted pastor to
sort of remove himself a littlebit from those tasks that he's
not good at, doesn't enjoy, sothat he can focus more on
(21:13):
ministry of the word and caringfor people.
But not everybody has thatluxury of doing that.
A lot of pastors just have tosuck it up and like, oh, I just
it's part of my job.
I don't like to do and dealwith that organizational stuff.
But you know, you maybe kind ofthink whenever we ended up
(21:34):
talking about house, church andstuff.
This is, I think, why smallgroup ministry can be really
effective in the church, becausewe get a smaller group of
people away from all that stuff,in fact even away from maybe a
big church building intosomebody's house, where they are
focused more on those things.
We see these values in ourministry.
(21:55):
We deal a lot in Acts, chapter2, verses 41 to 47.
And we see the picture of thefirst-century church there and
we see what they valued and thatthose kinds of things you can
do in a small group environment.
You know prayer and worship andfellowship and biblical
instruction and service.
(22:16):
So yeah, I think the like smallgroup ministry is just a really
effective way of disciplingpeople.
That will kind of separate youout from modern organizational
aspects of the church.
Valerie Ling (22:30):
Yeah, there is a pressure, there is a real change
in what is needed of a leaderonce you grow to a certain size.
I'm in a coaching environmentright now for my business as a
private practice, and one of thethings they've said to us quite
a lot and I think this isreally true is they said look,
once your team gets to, you knowabout the size of 11 or 12,
(22:53):
you've got a lifestyle business.
You know, turning over a certainrevenue and you know you can
have smaller clumping, like youknow three sets of four, you
know, and you're still quitehighly relational.
And they said but once you takein that 13th staff member, they
said think about that and thenthink about that and maybe don't
(23:14):
do it.
You know, and they probablyhave said this all through the
program, because much likepastors, you know, psychologists
, we are also our SC.
I'm not, but we are also thecaring, compliant, conscientious
one to many, you know, within amanageable load, you know, one
psychologist can see probablyabout 20 people a week, but we
(23:36):
are also that personality.
And so once though you gobeyond that certain number, the
your practice grows.
So you're now seeing hundredsto thousands of people.
The communication, you know,the amount of calls we have to
take in, increases.
The exposure to the publicgrievance also increases you
(24:00):
know from Google what you callit, the reviews, and so the
leader can no longer lead fromwithin.
And I thought a lot about thatbecause I've certainly seen the
strain of when we've moved tobecome bigger, that I'm also
more removed from the hard workto do a lot of the strategy work
(24:23):
.
A.J. Mathieu (24:24):
And.
Valerie Ling (24:24):
I just don't know how that acts.
Past is when you're moving fromdoing hard work to more
strategy work.
What do you think does?
How does it impact the churchand leaders?
This is the midpoint break forthe podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
(24:46):
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
A.J. Mathieu (24:59):
It depends again on the capabilities of that
pastor.
You know, I mean certainly a lotof pastors have found
themselves in a position wherethe church outgrows their
capacity and that's tough toaccept.
Those that recognize that earlymaybe can remove themselves from
that, get into a churchenvironment that they're more
(25:20):
comfortable with.
Those that recognize it toolate sometimes can really damage
the organization itself becausethey just weren't prepared and
they didn't have the capacity tolead at that level.
So yeah, again, having a teamaround you that you trust is
important.
It can either allow maybe youknow if, with humility, you
(25:43):
could receive feedback and maybebe able to either receive
coaching, training so that youcan operate at a higher capacity
, or again, maybe go on tosomething else, to a different
church that is a better fit foryou before any damage might get
caused.
Or trust your team and havegood team members around you so
(26:08):
that they can take care of thatmore.
You know the areas that you'reweaker in so that you can focus
on what you do best.
So you know there's a varietyof ways that that could end up
being handled, but beingself-aware and having people
around you that you trust aretwo important factors in that.
Valerie Ling (26:24):
Now, I know we're supposed to believe that
leadership behaviors can belearned.
Do you think, though, that forsome of us, we will require more
resources to learn how to leada team, how to think
transformationally, how to thinkmore strategy and influence,
while still remaining connectedto our heart?
(26:48):
Do you think there is a littlebit of not all can do it.
A.J. Mathieu (26:53):
Well, yes, I mean, I think leadership, certainly,
you know you can excel inleadership on a spectrum, you
know, certainly, yeah, there aresome born leaders out there.
They just, they require verylittle input, very little
training.
It's just the way they're wiredand you know, with no external
(27:14):
help they can operate at, youknow, 80 to 100 capacity on
leadership.
And there's others that youknow they're in the 30, 40 group
and they can be coached up to50 to 60, you know.
But again, that might be theirtheoretical limit.
So and then, sure, there'sgoing to be some people with
they don't even have an interestin leading, you know, I mean,
(27:35):
don't ask me to do anything.
I don't want to do it, it wouldbe terrible at it and it's best
to take them at their word andnot push them into that.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thenatural leaders, they can maybe
soar higher than the marginalleader who's trained up.
But I do think leadership canbe taught and coached and people
(27:58):
can improve in it and still dovery well in the right
environment.
Valerie Ling (28:03):
And what would that right environment be?
A.J. Mathieu (28:06):
Well, you know again something within knowing
what your limits are.
You know, I mean, you knowsomebody that can lead well,
maybe with a staff of six andyou know three or 400 people in
their congregation.
Maybe that that pastor could dovery well with that.
But if you put him into achurch of you know 1500 with a
(28:26):
staff of 28, and you added a lotof tasks that that he doesn't
enjoy doing, doesn't, you know,isn't particularly skilled in,
you know, I don't know, maybe atthat point he starts to bump up
against his theoretical limiton what he's capable of doing
and still have any.
You know life enjoyment and youknow good relationship with his
(28:49):
family.
You know these.
These are all additional thingsyou know.
I mean, could I kill myself andreally make this work?
Yeah, maybe so.
But is that a good idea?
Maybe not.
Valerie Ling (29:01):
And that's the pathway that comes into our
practice as psychologists, right?
So let me see if I can rememberit, because I like to chunk
things down for myself.
You have at that point whereyou're beyond your capacity for
whatever reason whether thestructure has gotten too big or
you've got life stressaccumulating as well, maybe
things aren't going so well inthe family or a huge conflict in
(29:23):
the church right, you can.
You can avoid, like just gointo a hole and try not to see
it, and that leads to all kindsof problems we find the
avoidance pathway can lead to.
You know alcoholism,pornography, even we call it
moral failure.
You know pathway because whenyou, when you're not tapping
(29:45):
into what you're thinking andfeeling and you're avoiding,
you're using stuff to help youto cope.
But you can also get the attackmode.
So now the attack mode is I'mout of my comfort zone, I know
my tolerance is really low forthings and I'm not going to
react, I'm going to push and I'mgoing to be forceful, I'm going
(30:05):
to be argumentative, combative.
That can also happen.
And so I think you know ifyou're not, if you're not aware
and you're not being careful andyou're just pushing through,
the outcomes may not befantastic either.
A.J. Mathieu (30:23):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Yeah, that's why you know it'sso important to have some people
around you that you trust andwill speak honestly to you.
And you know, I think you needto have that the character to.
You know, to look for help andto delegate.
And you know, yeah, all those,it's so nuanced, you know.
(30:46):
I mean there's so many, there'sso many opportunities out there
, but whether people takeadvantage of them or recognize
them in the right time, it'sjust there's a lot of different
ways things can go.
Valerie Ling (30:59):
So the survey that I put out, it had a tiny
component that was trying tolook at those patterns,
destructive leadership patterns,burnout.
I don't want to major on theminor because it was a
university assignment and I hadto be compliant to their process
, but perhaps there's room forfurther investigation, for a
(31:20):
couple of things.
One is that when you have, whenyou're, when you, when you, when
you say, when your church goesto a certain size, you need to
investigate your leadershipstyle.
You know that one type ofleadership style, which is
perhaps in the more cooperative,collaborative style, needs to
move into one that's now movingnot just hearts but minds and
(31:43):
hands as well, so it's a morestrategic leadership.
Then you know, looking at thepathways of stress on effective
leadership, you know whetherpeople actually have the ability
to reflect and and be effectivein their leadership.
But also that if we're notcareful, we we can also fall
(32:08):
into the trap then of just usingforceful leadership like
there's no leadership styleyou're using.
You're just trying to holdthose your way through.
So, with the Malthus group, arethere any particular leadership
styles that you you tend tolook at?
You know when, when passes aretrying to do leadership well.
A.J. Mathieu (32:28):
Well.
So some of the structure thatwe help churches put in place,
we do in addition to strategicplanning and church health and
revitalization, we do leader.
We call it leadership pipelinedesign and that's helping
churches to develop a leadershipstructure in the church.
So what we teach as more of abest practice is well, first of
(32:48):
all, at the top, a plurality ofof leaders, and there's lots of
different words for that elders,deacons, counsel.
We don't get hung up on terms.
Some, you know, some traditionsdon't like the idea of elders,
others, you know, think that'sgreat, we don't get hung up on
that.
But at the highest level, aplurality of authority and
(33:10):
leadership vested in arelatively small group of people
to, you know, to oversee themost important things in a
church, which is its spiritualdevelopment and, you know,
guarding the word of God, and,and so you know the pastor would
be up at that level.
And then you know stratifiedlevels down from there.
(33:35):
Typically this would be like afive levels of leadership in
your average size church.
From level one we have a.
We take a very broad definitionof leader.
Level one leader an usher door,greeter, parking lot, greeter,
it's any you know.
Base level, volunteer positionin the church.
We consider them leaders.
(33:56):
They're, they're participatingin the ministry.
They're only a level one leaderis only leading himself or
herself.
You're not leading others inthat ministry space that you're
volunteering in, but we callthem a level one leader.
Level two and up is when you'remore involved with leadership
(34:16):
of other people.
So you know, so we, we approachleadership as as a structure
and a system in which there'syou identify people's capacity.
Well, first of all, characterfor each of these levels is
defined.
What is, what is the care, whatare the character traits that
(34:36):
we would expect from people inthese various levels of
leadership?
And then, at what capacity dothey have to operate?
Based on whatever you know, thejob description is that they're
functioning in.
And we define the turn to gofrom a level one to a level two.
What, what you have to displayto show that you're ready to
move to a level two leader?
(34:57):
Also, recognizing that noteverybody wants to even move up
in leadership, it's perfectly OKto say this is my sweet spot
and stay there.
We don't, we don't need to moveyou up because obviously the
positions, as you go higher,become fewer and fewer.
Not everybody is going to gofrom usher to pastor of the
church that's just not how itworks or to elder.
(35:18):
So you know, in that regard, we, you know we set up the
structure to divide tasksamongst you know the levels of
leadership and the variouscapacity that's required and the
level of character.
So it's cooperative in thesense of everybody doing their
(35:38):
part, for you know the wholepart with proper authority in
place.
So you know the, the elders, atthat highest level, they have,
you know, a certain definedauthority.
If you're an elder in thechurch, it doesn't give you the
right to go to a level threepaid staff member and say I'm
(36:01):
your boss, I'm an elder.
That's not right.
They're, they actually do havea boss.
Your job is to be an elder andto make the proper decisions for
the church within your space.
So yeah, it doesn't.
It doesn't just as you go up,you have more and more authority
over everybody, or even overevery church member and elder.
You know, come up to your anychurch member and say move, move
(36:23):
down a seat, I'm an elder, Ineed to sit here.
You know that's that would beabusive power.
So so yeah, you know, we findthis to be a really a healthy
way of organizing leadership inthe church so that people
perform in, perform at theirhighest level in the space that
they're best in right now.
(36:44):
That's.
That's the main idea.
Valerie Ling (36:47):
And what's the main form to assess the criteria
for the different levels?
How does that happen?
A.J. Mathieu (36:53):
Yeah, so in the beginning, when it's being
created, you know the, the teamthat we help the church assemble
to do this work, and it justoccurs over just a couple of
days.
That's where the initial piecesare defined, like what, what is
the, what are the characterqualities that we would assign
in these, in these areas,creating job descriptions for
(37:16):
every position in the church.
But then it's also defining howevaluations will be done.
I mean, we're proponents ofEvaluating people's work and
performance from that, from,really from level two up.
You don't need to do one-on-oneJob evaluations with your level
one leaders.
That would be more of aninformal coaching environment.
(37:39):
But evaluations, yeah, whichMakes people street back
sometimes to think we wouldevaluate a volunteer in the
church.
Valerie Ling (37:48):
I was gonna ask yeah, yeah, yeah.
A.J. Mathieu (37:53):
So I think a lot of people Appreciate that, you
know, because I mean, you'rethere, you're you want to give
of your time, your talent.
You want to know are my doingthis right?
Am I effective, am I helpful?
And so, yeah, not evaluationbecause everybody thinks, oh my
gosh, everybody's had, liketheir, their job evaluation and
they're nervous for a weekbefore they had it.
(38:14):
That should never be the casein the church.
We should never go into anevaluation nervous, because we
should have also, we should havea relationship with the person
that would be doing ourevaluation.
We should be, you know,basically, you know friends at
that.
You know we're getting.
We're talking about churchenvironment, not Microsoft.
(38:35):
So, but yeah, I mean, everybodywould love to have feedback,
you know, positive, or or youknow perhaps a negative coaching
thing you know, to help themperform better, because when
it's done in the rightenvironment, with the right
heart, it's, it's effective andhelpful.
Not, you know, demoralizing andalienating.
Valerie Ling (38:59):
It's not something that what I'm hearing is almost
a definition and an intentionaldevelopment of maturity, not oh
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
A.J. Mathieu (39:09):
Yeah for sure, yeah, yeah, I mean the whole
environment should help peoplegrow, no doubt about it.
Yeah, you know, I mean it wouldbe seen somewhat separated from
an intentional discipleshipprocess in the church.
But if, yeah, if you're engagedin serving in the church In a
good environment, I think itabsolutely is a growth
(39:29):
opportunity.
Yeah, for sure, I mean, Iexperienced that myself, you
know.
I mean I, for many, many yearswe attended a church that was
very focused on leadership,development and discipleship and
I thrived in that environment,you know, as as I became At a
capacity in which I wasinterested with some, some
(39:50):
leadership areas and teachingareas and receive feedback from
people and was able to thenexercise new skills and
knowledge as a tremendous growthenvironment, I wouldn't I
wouldn't be in the ministry I amtoday had I not been Brought up
in that and I'm talking aboutI'm only done like 15 years ago.
(40:11):
I mean I'm I'm not, I'm notsomebody that you know was in
church leadership sinceelementary school.
I mean I was later in life thatGod called me, you know, into a
vocational ministry and and itwas because of a church that was
really intentional With mydevelopment that created that
environment for me to thrive.
Valerie Ling (40:32):
Okay, so I think I'm a level one in your
structure.
So I you know, in music I don'tlead anybody in church, so but
I am on the music team.
So if I was within thatstructure, how would someone
evaluate?
Well, first of all See if I'mto be selected and then evaluate
(40:53):
it as a level one.
I mean broadly what happens.
A.J. Mathieu (40:57):
Yeah, I mean, for, for the most part, a level one
leader wouldn't, depending onagain on the position, there
wouldn't be much Necessary toqualify, and you know, even this
can be a hang-up in somechurches.
Some churches might say, well,you have to have been going here
for so long, you might evenhave to be a member.
You might, you might have to bea believer.
(41:18):
I mean, there's some churchesthat you don't have to be a
believer to open the door andsmile and greet somebody you
know.
I mean that's, that's okay.
But yeah, so I'm, if I'm notmistaken, I think somebody on
like a music team, worship team,would be a.
That would be a level two.
You don't feel like you'releading anyone because you don't
(41:40):
have a direct reports, but youare leading the congregation,
got the exercise of your talentif you're gifting, right, so
that would be a level two leader.
And yeah, so that's a littlebit different scenario.
Well, first of all, you have tohave some kind of talent.
We don't want people that don'tknow how to play their
instrument, holding aninstrument and trying to play it
(42:00):
on Sunday, or someone that youknow Can't sing in key.
Valerie Ling (42:05):
So there is a very loving AJ.
A.J. Mathieu (42:11):
Just to just make a joyful noise.
It doesn't matter what itsounds like.
Yeah, there there was some kindof qualification.
Whether you are aware of it ornot, you had to be qualified to
do.
Whatever you do, what do youplay an instrument or do you
sing?
What do you do, valerie?
Valerie Ling (42:27):
Yeah, I play the keyboard.
A.J. Mathieu (42:28):
Oh, okay, all right.
Valerie Ling (42:29):
Well, you know, but he auditioned me, aj, no one
auditioned you Look, I'm beinga bit cheeky, I get we saying I
think that some of these thingshappen intuitively.
Yeah, even if you don't spellit out intentionally, but I
think it's when we, when we havedifferent intuition about other
things.
So what does it mean for thecharacter of someone?
(42:50):
So I can get a bit hot underthe collar when I play with
other musicians at churchbecause I've come from a
different formation pathway.
You know some very strictformation pathways when I was a
young person, to be taught whatit is to be humble and to you
know my role is and things likethat.
But different people come fromdifferent pathways and have
(43:12):
different Understandings of whatit is to play music.
So I think what I'm hearing fromyou is and I think you're right
there's, there's an element ifwe can be very confused at
church.
There's, no, there's.
There can be very littleclarity and when that happens,
we attach our own meaning, ourown Analysis, and we're more
(43:33):
critical and more demanding ofone another as well.
And then ultimately, we go tothe leadership to say, well, you
solve it, you fix it, you'reresponsible for this.
Yeah, for for the way thingsare going or how I'm being
treated at church.
Would that be fair?
A.J. Mathieu (43:48):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean you mentioned clarity.
My our vice president, scottBall, quotes this frequently and
I don't remember who said it,but that clear is kind.
So when we're clear about Aboutpeople, the expectations that
we have for people, or howsomething is supposed to be
organized or operate, that isshowing kindness to them.
(44:09):
Otherwise we set them upperhaps for failure, yeah, or
you know we're embarrassment orsomething uncomfortable.
So, yeah, I think we need to, Ithink it it's helpful and it's
kind to define expectations, todefine processes and that helps
people to operate at At thegreatest, you know,
(44:30):
effectiveness that they can inthat environment.
So, yes, but everybody doescome in, you know, from
different, different points ofview and and with different
upbringings and they theydeveloped in different ways.
But that's not an excuse.
Then we can't excuse certainbehavior because, well, that's
just the way they were.
We need to better, just definewhat's expected in our
(44:51):
environment and then, you know,help them to to operate there.
That's you know, that'ssomething that you know.
Getting into again into churchesinternationally, you know, in
different cultures and contexts,is how much?
How much do we allow, based on,you know, the culture, to
(45:12):
inform what's right in thechurch?
You know, for us to, to developpeople and to operate in the
space and do the things that thechurch is called to do, and so
that can.
That can create conflict,especially in churches that you
know have a variety of cultures.
We deal a lot withinternational churches, which
means a church in a in a globalcity that has people from lots
(45:38):
of different places around theworld, all different cultures.
You know, in big global citiesSydney, berlin, tokyo you know
people that might be workingthere or just doing ministry or
school or something, and andthen they come together in the
church and we've got all ofthese different cultures and
(46:01):
worldviews and and then we'relike, okay, now what do we do?
You know, should we let thisperson what I perceive as as
something offensive, but it'snormal for them?
Do we just let that happen?
You know whose culture wins.
You know what.
What is, how are we going todefine this environment?
(46:24):
And these are struggles, youknow that, even in more subtle
circumstances, that just anyparticular church anywhere might
experience, because even ifwe're all the same, you know we
might everybody in our churchesfrom Australia, but even I don't
I know very little aboutAustralia, valerie, but maybe
we're.
You know somebody is comes fromthe far West versus somebody
(46:48):
from Brisbane, and they justhave they have different ideas
about the way things should work.
So, yeah, I mean this is thatbecomes the job of the pastor or
the or various leaders to towork this out.
But again, regardless of wherepeople come from, if we have
something that we can say here'show this is going to work,
(47:10):
here's how we do it here andhere's what we expect of you
it's then up to that individualto say, okay, I understand and
I'll do my best so maybe whenI'm even Getting from this, it's
quite interesting, is that evenbeing intentional about the
training of lay leadership?
Valerie Ling (47:27):
So do you see that as being Separate,
complementary?
How does it work with thediscipleship process?
Because I think in mostchurches your lay leaders don't
get trained in leadership.
You know you, you might gettrained how to lead a Bible
study or how to even write aBible study, but I don't think
there is any development for layleadership.
A.J. Mathieu (47:47):
Yeah, that's where we speak of leadership
development as a culture, not,you know, an event or a process.
Right, leaders, developingleaders should become the
culture of the church, so yeah.
So let's say I, I joined it.
I've been going to the churchfor a year or so.
I joined a small group and I'vegot this, this you know, this
(48:10):
man or woman leading my smallgroup Well, in in a church whose
culture it is to developleaders, that small group leader
knows that it's a component oftheir position, not only to
present the information you know, to lead a Bible study or to
lead other aspects of a smallgroup, but to understand the
personalities in their group andto help cultivate that.
(48:33):
You know, the gifting and thethings that the Lord has given
them To recognize.
You know, I mean, if, if we'rehaving eye out for people who
might be able to serve indifferent capacities, then Then
you know that's a great placethat they could.
You know, whenever the needcomes up, or if there's, you
know we just need more people toserve, you know we could say,
well, gosh, you know this guy,mark in my group, would be
(48:56):
fantastic for that.
I've gotten to know him and Ithink he would be a great fit
for that over there.
But you know it's.
It's a culture of recognizingpeople's traits, their
characteristics, theirpersonality and and their
strengths and helping themdevelop.
So versus, hey, we're gonnahave a, we're gonna a sermon
(49:20):
series on leadership or we'regonna start a leadership class.
You know, sometimes thosevenues and events are okay, but
better to have a church whoseculture it is to develop people.
Valerie Ling (49:32):
Yeah, I mean, that is, that is the heart of
transformation and leadership isyou journey the.
The leader journeys veryclosely with the other level
leaders and Develops thechurches, the mentors, them, is
personally interested in,invested and and invest their
time into that leadership andthe modeling happens and then
(49:52):
that level, you know, does thesame with the next level and it
goes down, isn't it?
Yeah?
A.J. Mathieu (49:59):
exactly Yep.
Well, this has been afascinating conversation.
Valerie Ling (50:04):
Hey, it's been a lot of fun, so thank you so much
for spending time with me, aj.
A.J. Mathieu (50:10):
Thank you.
It was a lot of fun at the timeflew by, so we'll have to do it
again.
Valerie Ling (50:15):
Cheers.
A.J. Mathieu (50:15):
You.
Dear listener, welcome to another episode of
the Clergy Wellbeing Down Underpodcast.
It's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI am your host for today.
The podcast is being producedunder the banner of the Centre
for Effective Serving, which isa leadership and workplace
well-being consulting arm that Ilead.
(00:21):
I also lead a Centre forEffective Living, which is a
psychology practice located inSydney.
Many of our psychologists areChristians and on any given week
are supporting our ministry andmission families of here in
Australia and around the world.
(00:43):
We are currently recruiting fortwo full-time equivalent
positions, that is, forpsychologists to join the Centre
for Effective Living to workwith us in our mission to see a
world without burnout.
If you know someone who is aregistered psychologist, a
(01:04):
student who is soon to be aregistered psychologist, someone
who is planning to move toAustralia and would love to be
registered as a psychologist,would you send them our way?
The best thing to do is to sendthem a link
wwweffectivelivercomau, slashjoin-our-team.
(01:27):
I'll put the link in thepodcast description as well.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Welcome everybody.
I am so privileged to bespeaking with AJ Mathieu from
the Malphurs Group.
(01:47):
Welcome, AJ.
A.J. Mathieu (01:49):
Hi, valerie, nice to be here.
Valerie Ling (01:51):
Now you have a very successful podcast.
It's very impressive.
You were telling me somethinglike 4000 downloads a month.
Is that right?
A.J. Mathieu (02:00):
Yeah, I guess, depending on your scale or what
you're impressed by, you couldsay that's successful.
I don't know.
Valerie Ling (02:08):
Please introduce yourself, what you do, the work,
the organization and yourpodcast.
A.J. Mathieu (02:15):
Yeah well, the podcast is called the Church
Revitalization Podcast.
We've been doing that for alittle over three years now and
it's weekly.
You can find that wherever youget podcasts On the president of
the Malfers Group.
We're a ministry based here inthe United States, in Texas,
founded by the late Dr AubreyMalfers, who is a professor at
(02:35):
Dallas Theological Seminary anda prolific author of leadership
and strategic planning forchurches, books, and so we I
mean in a nutshell we just helpchurches do what their mandate
is from Christ to do, and thatis to make and mature disciples
of Jesus.
So we help them plan out livingon mission and organizing their
(03:00):
ministries in an effective wayto disciple people and bring the
gospel to the nations.
So we've done that for manyyears in the US, and now we have
the joy and pleasure of doingthat globally as well, on many
continents.
So it's been a really funministry experience.
Valerie Ling (03:18):
We spoke several years ago when I was trying to
figure out this thing calledchurch leadership.
So as a clinical psychologist,mainly just looking and saying
you know how can I inform myclinical practice with some of
the issues that were coming inthrough the practice and picked
up a couple of books from yourgroup and I've actually
(03:40):
implemented one of the.
We have a program called thestress management resiliency
group.
It's a bit of a boring name butit is.
That is what we do with theBible college students.
You know six modules to preparethem for ministry and to
prepare them for resiliency andwhat to expect, and one of them
(04:01):
is about ministry values.
So your personal values, butalso looking at your ministry
values and becoming more awareof that when you are starting
ministry.
So at that point, having read acouple of your books or, you
know, books from your groupreached out to you, and that was
(04:21):
before the pandemic.
A.J. Mathieu (04:23):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (04:24):
And you and I chatted not too long ago and you
were saying that actually,since the pandemic that's even
grown, the ministry that youhave to be on the US to be quite
international.
A.J. Mathieu (04:36):
Yeah, that's right , the catalyst really was the
pandemic.
You know, that was the visionof our ministry was to expand
that way for many years.
But it was really, when youknow, the world shut down.
Everybody went online andpastors were scrambling for
resources and you know, likewhat do we do now?
And so, yeah, I'm fortunatethat we were prepared to receive
(05:01):
them.
You know, the first thing thatwe did that really developed
some great relationships was westarted organizing online
cohorts and we had them set uplike different days of the week
on different time zones, so thatwe could just get together and
sort of host small collectionsof pastors from different places
(05:21):
around the world just to talkabout ideas from technology to
communicating with ourcongregations and being able to
carry on some semblance ofdiscipleship like we had been
doing, you know, just daysbefore.
So that really we formed somereally great relationships
through those cohorts and itreally just broadened our reach.
Valerie Ling (05:46):
So I'd say you'd have your pulse on what's
happening around the world withregards to the church leadership
space.
What seems to be coming up?
What are some of the issuesthat you hear about?
A.J. Mathieu (05:59):
Oh gosh, well, you know.
So leadership is an interestingtopic in the church and how it
might be different, you know,from culture to culture and
continent to continent.
So you know there's repetitivethings that I think every church
experiences in the context.
In those then come in whattheir cultures are like, you
know, from guilt, innocence,culture versus honor, shame
(06:20):
culture, and in you know these,the different worldviews that
people have or the lens in whichthey view the world.
So, but you know, I mean therepetitive things are always the
sense of being all alone.
You know, as, as pastors, theoverwhelming majority of
churches in the United Statesand around the world are very
(06:42):
small.
You know it's the mega churchesare a very small minority of
churches, or even those thathave multiple staff.
So most pastors out there havea have a great sense of being
all alone in ministry, and soyou know I think that's why you
know people doing the work thatyou do, valerie, is really
(07:04):
important to get to know whatthose struggles are and, you
know, help them with witheffective coping mechanisms and
and things to continue toperform at the highest level
that they can.
So dealing with yourself inministry certainly is a common
leadership issue, but thendealing with people, because
leadership in general is notsomething that is really taught
(07:26):
in most seminaries.
If it is, it's maybe one or twoclasses, kind of an overview,
but most pastors are not comingout of you know, their education
prepared to lead organizationsand to lead people and to deal
with personalities or even tounderstand their own personality
and how they relate to others.
So these are the things thatare very common that we see.
(07:49):
You know, we actually thisweek's episode we just did, we
were just recorded today ontoxic leadership in the church.
So you know, taking sort of badbehavior to extremes and
narcissism and similar you knowpersonality pitfalls.
Valerie Ling (08:10):
Well, let's go there.
I was hoping you and I couldhave a conversation about
leadership in that that was oneof the well, the survey that I
did came out of a masters ofleadership, so I had to look at
leadership.
I was interested in it and oneof the things that I was curious
about was the pathway todestructive leadership.
(08:30):
You know, from that range ofbeing ineffective, inappropriate
, unhelpful, forceful, toabusive and toxic.
What are some of the thingsthat you're seeing?
A.J. Mathieu (08:43):
Well, you know, I think the, the.
I think that one of the biggestthings to that enables toxic
leadership is poor structure inthe church, authority structure
in the church.
You have to have an environmentconducive to toxic leadership
for it to thrive and this is byno no intentional design by, you
(09:05):
know, church leaders over thedecades and centuries.
But.
But a lot of churches you knowtoday are unfortunately
structured in a way wherethere's very little
accountability for a pastor.
And again, we're talking aboutthe majority of churches being
smaller.
So there's it's not likethere's a big staff team, but
even small churches.
If you don't have some sort ofoversight board or council in
(09:30):
place in which the pastor iscomfortable operating, has a
level of accountability, thenit's just an environment in
which someone that might havepersonality, traits that would
allow them to go that way.
Could, you know, kind of godeeper into that?
Perhaps unintentionally,perhaps intentionally?
Sin does exist in the world andin the church, but but yeah, I
(09:55):
think the biggest issue withallowing toxic leadership to
thrive is environments thatallow it to thrive.
Valerie Ling (10:03):
One of my observations, having now gone
into churches to, I guess, toobserve and understand what
happens, is I wonder whethertrust in a biblical sense, when
we talk about submission, it'salmost like we can also
(10:24):
surrender to a kind ofunthinking trust.
So just because you're theleader and we're meant to submit
, I will give you trust, whereasI think in organizational
context, I think trust has to beearned.
You've got to be slow andcareful and watchful, and before
(10:45):
you actually fully give overyour trust in an organization,
what do you think?
A.J. Mathieu (10:50):
Well, yes, I mean, my personality is one that
doesn't automatically allowtrust.
I guess I don't know I wasgoing to say even respect.
Of course I do.
No one has to earn my respectfor me to be pleasant to them
and cordial and act in arespectful manner.
(11:11):
But to truly respect somebody,I think that's based on their
actions.
You can give them a cursorylevel of respect or honor or
trust, but I do believe thatthat becomes earned.
But yeah, in the church we aretaught to honor those that God
(11:31):
has put in positions ofauthority and the nature of
Christ in kindness and honor andrespect.
Yeah, I mean, those arepositive attributes.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(11:51):
So I think the blame again ismore on the leader's side for
taking advantage of that andeven manipulating it so that
they can retain that level ofpower or control.
So, yeah, there's nothing wrongwith a new pastor comes to your
church, you automatically wouldlove to befriend him and
(12:14):
obviously show kindness andhospitality.
But also I think they wouldcome in with somewhat of an
automatic level of trust thatyou would give them and
authority for them to presentGod's word to you or to counsel
you.
Yeah, I mean, that's why whenthere are hurts in the church
(12:36):
because of toxic leadership.
It's so hurtfully.
I think as believers we wouldbe hurt differently or deeper,
because it's not a good thing.
It's not only offensive, maybejust interpersonally, but also
spiritually hurtful.
So, yeah, I think pastorsshould be held to a higher
(13:01):
standard than just some generalorganization, some CEO somewhere
.
We should expect more from themto be living out the word of
God and the character of God.
Valerie Ling (13:16):
Yeah, and it comes to awareness as well.
So, coming from a professionlike mine, where we are trained
from the ground about the powerdynamic we are taught One of the
most powerful classes I tookwhen I was training in
psychology was when we weredoing child psychology and the
(13:37):
lecturer came in and for thefirst class she put half of us
to be on our knees and half ofus would be just regular height
and we had to do the entireclass that way.
Yeah, we couldn't sit at ourtables, we had to be on our
knees and we were constantlylooking up and if we needed a
pen or whatever, and obviouslyshe had to debrief that because
(13:58):
it was so powerful.
I was one of the ones on myknees.
I had not realized that whenyou look at, when you go through
life in the world smaller thansomeone else, how helpless you
feel, how dependent you are, andthat was meant to teach us that
, no matter what we think, thereis always a power differential
(14:21):
in the room.
When you're a psychologist, andalso when you're working with
children and we learn thatawareness.
But I don't know whether inministry, in leadership, whether
that awareness is formed sothat you don't just understand
and label that there's a powerdifferential.
But you've actually workedthrough it.
(14:42):
I'm not so sure.
A.J. Mathieu (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
Again, I don't think these arethe kinds of things that your
average pastor is being taught,or being taught in more of an
environment such as that, whereyou can get this tangible sense
of that power differential, butit may be discussed, but not
(15:04):
experienced.
So, yeah, I mean, I thinkthere's a lot of value in doing
your own discovery, even thedisk and things like that, just
understanding your personalityand how you relate to other
people.
I think that those are allvaluable things that any leader
(15:26):
would benefit from to bestmanage yourself and those around
you.
Of course, as a pastor, whetheryou've got paid staff or
volunteer staff, I mean, you'vegot a team that you're supposed
to be leading towards a sharedgoal, the mission of the church,
and then be leading yourcongregation into that as well.
(15:48):
So the greater you can grow ineffectiveness as a leader again,
we're talking church, we're nottalking secular or world, we're
talking church so the greateryou can grow as an effective
leader, the greater kingdomgrowth we have and gospel
expansion.
So I think these are just toolsthat pastors, leaders, should
(16:13):
seek so that they can grow inthat way.
Valerie Ling (16:16):
I'm curious.
You've mentioned now that we'rea church, we're not an
organization and it strikes methat we suddenly in Australia
I'm not sure what it's like inthe US we organize ourselves as
a commercial organization, anygroup of people.
They get together, they're agroup, but then when you're
starting to need to structureand have procedures and deal
with human resources, you reallybecome an organization.
(16:38):
Do you see that as being?
It is very, very different, thechurch as an organization?
A.J. Mathieu (16:48):
Well, I mean, that certainly adds a huge layer of
complexity.
You know, yeah, if you werejust a house church, you know,
just really completely focusedon just, you know, worship and
discipleship and Bibleinstruction, yes, that's a
simpler environment.
But yeah, here in the US aswell, you know, I mean, churches
(17:09):
form as corporations and mostnot all you know, then go
through the process of becomingfederally nonprofit
organizations and so, yeah,there's, you know, and then
we've there's reportingrequirements and HR things that
you have to do with the staffteam.
Yes, this is an entireadditional layer of complexity
(17:33):
than simply managing thespiritual health and growth of
people.
So I guess you know that's a Idon't know if that's an
unfortunate side effect of.
You know, just modern times andthe way the, the way the world
is now and the way churches andgovernments relate to one
another, but you know it'sbecome the norm.
(17:56):
So everybody is sort of they'reprepared to operate in that
environment.
Valerie Ling (18:00):
Now, it's not, it's not a surprise, you know,
whenever you get into ministry,and so the you know what you
said initially, that you know ifyou were a church like a house
church and you were concernedwith the preaching and the
teaching and the discipleshipand the worship, that really
just sounds to me like the corebusiness of the church, right,
Right, and you and I had a chatabout you know leadership styles
(18:23):
, servant leadership,transformation leadership, and I
kind of have a hypothesis thatin that what you just said, that
the the simpler expression ofminute of organized church, you
know, flatter structures,smaller size, less connected to
governmental structures, if youlike, that servant leadership
(18:44):
and it's not necessarily aboutbeing servant hearted but a
cooperative where we mix and welead from within can work and
that.
That that seems to me like ifyou're not aware of leadership,
the more complex your churchbecomes and you don't adapt your
leadership style, you mightalso be in trouble.
A.J. Mathieu (19:07):
Yeah, for sure, because most pastors, like on
the disc, most pastors are an S.
Valerie Ling (19:16):
And to what's that ?
Let's define that, just in casethey want to.
A.J. Mathieu (19:21):
Let's define it.
Yeah, so the S on the disc.
What's the official word forthat?
Is it steady?
I think it's steady.
So, yeah, I mean it's thatpastoral nature, that caring
nature, that relationship-drivennature, as opposed to the D.
That's the dominant personality, the more driven personality,
the I.
(19:41):
A lot of pastors, though,operate in the I, which is that
influencer.
They're very comfortable up infront of people and then back
around to the C, theconscientious, the people that
are good at planning, and theycan make charts and lists as
your accountants.
Valerie Ling (20:02):
So yeah, most the pastors D is dominant.
D is dominant.
A.J. Mathieu (20:07):
Yes, d is dominant .
Yeah, so most pastors get intoministry because they care for
people, they care for God's word.
They want a shepherd.
That would be.
I guess the Christian S versionof the disc was shepherding.
So, yeah, it's hard for them tooperate in more of an
(20:30):
organizational leader role.
It's just not the typicalpersonality of a pastor.
So what's important then is tobuild a team, and in larger
churches a really beneficialposition is like an executive
pastor.
That's a luxury position in thechurch, so you need to be
larger and have a bigger budgetto have that.
(20:51):
But that becomes your key manthat is maybe dealing with staff
things and organizationalthings and all the finance
aspects.
Basically, it would allow ashepherding-hearted pastor to
sort of remove himself a littlebit from those tasks that he's
not good at, doesn't enjoy, sothat he can focus more on
(21:13):
ministry of the word and caringfor people.
But not everybody has thatluxury of doing that.
A lot of pastors just have tosuck it up and like, oh, I just
it's part of my job.
I don't like to do and dealwith that organizational stuff.
But you know, you maybe kind ofthink whenever we ended up
(21:34):
talking about house, church andstuff.
This is, I think, why smallgroup ministry can be really
effective in the church, becausewe get a smaller group of
people away from all that stuff,in fact even away from maybe a
big church building intosomebody's house, where they are
focused more on those things.
We see these values in ourministry.
(21:55):
We deal a lot in Acts, chapter2, verses 41 to 47.
And we see the picture of thefirst-century church there and
we see what they valued and thatthose kinds of things you can
do in a small group environment.
You know prayer and worship andfellowship and biblical
instruction and service.
(22:16):
So yeah, I think the like smallgroup ministry is just a really
effective way of disciplingpeople.
That will kind of separate youout from modern organizational
aspects of the church.
Valerie Ling (22:30):
Yeah, there is a pressure, there is a real change
in what is needed of a leaderonce you grow to a certain size.
I'm in a coaching environmentright now for my business as a
private practice, and one of thethings they've said to us quite
a lot and I think this isreally true is they said look,
once your team gets to, you knowabout the size of 11 or 12,
(22:53):
you've got a lifestyle business.
You know, turning over a certainrevenue and you know you can
have smaller clumping, like youknow three sets of four, you
know, and you're still quitehighly relational.
And they said but once you takein that 13th staff member, they
said think about that and thenthink about that and maybe don't
(23:14):
do it.
You know, and they probablyhave said this all through the
program, because much likepastors, you know, psychologists
, we are also our SC.
I'm not, but we are also thecaring, compliant, conscientious
one to many, you know, within amanageable load, you know, one
psychologist can see probablyabout 20 people a week, but we
(23:36):
are also that personality.
And so once though you gobeyond that certain number, the
your practice grows.
So you're now seeing hundredsto thousands of people.
The communication, you know,the amount of calls we have to
take in, increases.
The exposure to the publicgrievance also increases you
(24:00):
know from Google what you callit, the reviews, and so the
leader can no longer lead fromwithin.
And I thought a lot about thatbecause I've certainly seen the
strain of when we've moved tobecome bigger, that I'm also
more removed from the hard workto do a lot of the strategy work
(24:23):
.
A.J. Mathieu (24:24):
And.
Valerie Ling (24:24):
I just don't know how that acts.
Past is when you're moving fromdoing hard work to more
strategy work.
What do you think does?
How does it impact the churchand leaders?
This is the midpoint break forthe podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
(24:46):
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
A.J. Mathieu (24:59):
It depends again on the capabilities of that
pastor.
You know, I mean certainly a lotof pastors have found
themselves in a position wherethe church outgrows their
capacity and that's tough toaccept.
Those that recognize that earlymaybe can remove themselves from
that, get into a churchenvironment that they're more
(25:20):
comfortable with.
Those that recognize it toolate sometimes can really damage
the organization itself becausethey just weren't prepared and
they didn't have the capacity tolead at that level.
So yeah, again, having a teamaround you that you trust is
important.
It can either allow maybe youknow if, with humility, you
(25:43):
could receive feedback and maybebe able to either receive
coaching, training so that youcan operate at a higher capacity
, or again, maybe go on tosomething else, to a different
church that is a better fit foryou before any damage might get
caused.
Or trust your team and havegood team members around you so
(26:08):
that they can take care of thatmore.
You know the areas that you'reweaker in so that you can focus
on what you do best.
So you know there's a varietyof ways that that could end up
being handled, but beingself-aware and having people
around you that you trust aretwo important factors in that.
Valerie Ling (26:24):
Now, I know we're supposed to believe that
leadership behaviors can belearned.
Do you think, though, that forsome of us, we will require more
resources to learn how to leada team, how to think
transformationally, how to thinkmore strategy and influence,
while still remaining connectedto our heart?
(26:48):
Do you think there is a littlebit of not all can do it.
A.J. Mathieu (26:53):
Well, yes, I mean, I think leadership, certainly,
you know you can excel inleadership on a spectrum, you
know, certainly, yeah, there aresome born leaders out there.
They just, they require verylittle input, very little
training.
It's just the way they're wiredand you know, with no external
(27:14):
help they can operate at, youknow, 80 to 100 capacity on
leadership.
And there's others that youknow they're in the 30, 40 group
and they can be coached up to50 to 60, you know.
But again, that might be theirtheoretical limit.
So and then, sure, there'sgoing to be some people with
they don't even have an interestin leading, you know, I mean,
(27:35):
don't ask me to do anything.
I don't want to do it, it wouldbe terrible at it and it's best
to take them at their word andnot push them into that.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thenatural leaders, they can maybe
soar higher than the marginalleader who's trained up.
But I do think leadership canbe taught and coached and people
(27:58):
can improve in it and still dovery well in the right
environment.
Valerie Ling (28:03):
And what would that right environment be?
A.J. Mathieu (28:06):
Well, you know again something within knowing
what your limits are.
You know, I mean, you knowsomebody that can lead well,
maybe with a staff of six andyou know three or 400 people in
their congregation.
Maybe that that pastor could dovery well with that.
But if you put him into achurch of you know 1500 with a
(28:26):
staff of 28, and you added a lotof tasks that that he doesn't
enjoy doing, doesn't, you know,isn't particularly skilled in,
you know, I don't know, maybe atthat point he starts to bump up
against his theoretical limiton what he's capable of doing
and still have any.
You know life enjoyment and youknow good relationship with his
(28:49):
family.
You know these.
These are all additional thingsyou know.
I mean, could I kill myself andreally make this work?
Yeah, maybe so.
But is that a good idea?
Maybe not.
Valerie Ling (29:01):
And that's the pathway that comes into our
practice as psychologists, right?
So let me see if I can rememberit, because I like to chunk
things down for myself.
You have at that point whereyou're beyond your capacity for
whatever reason whether thestructure has gotten too big or
you've got life stressaccumulating as well, maybe
things aren't going so well inthe family or a huge conflict in
(29:23):
the church right, you can.
You can avoid, like just gointo a hole and try not to see
it, and that leads to all kindsof problems we find the
avoidance pathway can lead to.
You know alcoholism,pornography, even we call it
moral failure.
You know pathway because whenyou, when you're not tapping
(29:45):
into what you're thinking andfeeling and you're avoiding,
you're using stuff to help youto cope.
But you can also get the attackmode.
So now the attack mode is I'mout of my comfort zone, I know
my tolerance is really low forthings and I'm not going to
react, I'm going to push and I'mgoing to be forceful, I'm going
(30:05):
to be argumentative, combative.
That can also happen.
And so I think you know ifyou're not, if you're not aware
and you're not being careful andyou're just pushing through,
the outcomes may not befantastic either.
A.J. Mathieu (30:23):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Yeah, that's why you know it'sso important to have some people
around you that you trust andwill speak honestly to you.
And you know, I think you needto have that the character to.
You know, to look for help andto delegate.
And you know, yeah, all those,it's so nuanced, you know.
(30:46):
I mean there's so many, there'sso many opportunities out there
, but whether people takeadvantage of them or recognize
them in the right time, it'sjust there's a lot of different
ways things can go.
Valerie Ling (30:59):
So the survey that I put out, it had a tiny
component that was trying tolook at those patterns,
destructive leadership patterns,burnout.
I don't want to major on theminor because it was a
university assignment and I hadto be compliant to their process
, but perhaps there's room forfurther investigation, for a
(31:20):
couple of things.
One is that when you have, whenyou're, when you, when you, when
you say, when your church goesto a certain size, you need to
investigate your leadershipstyle.
You know that one type ofleadership style, which is
perhaps in the more cooperative,collaborative style, needs to
move into one that's now movingnot just hearts but minds and
(31:43):
hands as well, so it's a morestrategic leadership.
Then you know, looking at thepathways of stress on effective
leadership, you know whetherpeople actually have the ability
to reflect and and be effectivein their leadership.
But also that if we're notcareful, we we can also fall
(32:08):
into the trap then of just usingforceful leadership like
there's no leadership styleyou're using.
You're just trying to holdthose your way through.
So, with the Malthus group, arethere any particular leadership
styles that you you tend tolook at?
You know when, when passes aretrying to do leadership well.
A.J. Mathieu (32:28):
Well.
So some of the structure thatwe help churches put in place,
we do in addition to strategicplanning and church health and
revitalization, we do leader.
We call it leadership pipelinedesign and that's helping
churches to develop a leadershipstructure in the church.
So what we teach as more of abest practice is well, first of
(32:48):
all, at the top, a plurality ofof leaders, and there's lots of
different words for that elders,deacons, counsel.
We don't get hung up on terms.
Some, you know, some traditionsdon't like the idea of elders,
others, you know, think that'sgreat, we don't get hung up on
that.
But at the highest level, aplurality of authority and
(33:10):
leadership vested in arelatively small group of people
to, you know, to oversee themost important things in a
church, which is its spiritualdevelopment and, you know,
guarding the word of God, and,and so you know the pastor would
be up at that level.
And then you know stratifiedlevels down from there.
(33:35):
Typically this would be like afive levels of leadership in
your average size church.
From level one we have a.
We take a very broad definitionof leader.
Level one leader an usher door,greeter, parking lot, greeter,
it's any you know.
Base level, volunteer positionin the church.
We consider them leaders.
(33:56):
They're, they're participatingin the ministry.
They're only a level one leaderis only leading himself or
herself.
You're not leading others inthat ministry space that you're
volunteering in, but we callthem a level one leader.
Level two and up is when you'remore involved with leadership
(34:16):
of other people.
So you know, so we, we approachleadership as as a structure
and a system in which there'syou identify people's capacity.
Well, first of all, characterfor each of these levels is
defined.
What is, what is the care, whatare the character traits that
(34:36):
we would expect from people inthese various levels of
leadership?
And then, at what capacity dothey have to operate?
Based on whatever you know, thejob description is that they're
functioning in.
And we define the turn to gofrom a level one to a level two.
What, what you have to displayto show that you're ready to
move to a level two leader?
(34:57):
Also, recognizing that noteverybody wants to even move up
in leadership, it's perfectly OKto say this is my sweet spot
and stay there.
We don't, we don't need to moveyou up because obviously the
positions, as you go higher,become fewer and fewer.
Not everybody is going to gofrom usher to pastor of the
church that's just not how itworks or to elder.
(35:18):
So you know, in that regard, we, you know we set up the
structure to divide tasksamongst you know the levels of
leadership and the variouscapacity that's required and the
level of character.
So it's cooperative in thesense of everybody doing their
(35:38):
part, for you know the wholepart with proper authority in
place.
So you know the, the elders, atthat highest level, they have,
you know, a certain definedauthority.
If you're an elder in thechurch, it doesn't give you the
right to go to a level threepaid staff member and say I'm
(36:01):
your boss, I'm an elder.
That's not right.
They're, they actually do havea boss.
Your job is to be an elder andto make the proper decisions for
the church within your space.
So yeah, it doesn't.
It doesn't just as you go up,you have more and more authority
over everybody, or even overevery church member and elder.
You know, come up to your anychurch member and say move, move
(36:23):
down a seat, I'm an elder, Ineed to sit here.
You know that's that would beabusive power.
So so yeah, you know, we findthis to be a really a healthy
way of organizing leadership inthe church so that people
perform in, perform at theirhighest level in the space that
they're best in right now.
(36:44):
That's.
That's the main idea.
Valerie Ling (36:47):
And what's the main form to assess the criteria
for the different levels?
How does that happen?
A.J. Mathieu (36:53):
Yeah, so in the beginning, when it's being
created, you know the, the teamthat we help the church assemble
to do this work, and it justoccurs over just a couple of
days.
That's where the initial piecesare defined, like what, what is
the, what are the characterqualities that we would assign
in these, in these areas,creating job descriptions for
(37:16):
every position in the church.
But then it's also defining howevaluations will be done.
I mean, we're proponents ofEvaluating people's work and
performance from that, from,really from level two up.
You don't need to do one-on-oneJob evaluations with your level
one leaders.
That would be more of aninformal coaching environment.
(37:39):
But evaluations, yeah, whichMakes people street back
sometimes to think we wouldevaluate a volunteer in the
church.
Valerie Ling (37:48):
I was gonna ask yeah, yeah, yeah.
A.J. Mathieu (37:53):
So I think a lot of people Appreciate that, you
know, because I mean, you'rethere, you're you want to give
of your time, your talent.
You want to know are my doingthis right?
Am I effective, am I helpful?
And so, yeah, not evaluationbecause everybody thinks, oh my
gosh, everybody's had, liketheir, their job evaluation and
they're nervous for a weekbefore they had it.
(38:14):
That should never be the casein the church.
We should never go into anevaluation nervous, because we
should have also, we should havea relationship with the person
that would be doing ourevaluation.
We should be, you know,basically, you know friends at
that.
You know we're getting.
We're talking about churchenvironment, not Microsoft.
(38:35):
So, but yeah, I mean, everybodywould love to have feedback,
you know, positive, or or youknow perhaps a negative coaching
thing you know, to help themperform better, because when
it's done in the rightenvironment, with the right
heart, it's, it's effective andhelpful.
Not, you know, demoralizing andalienating.
Valerie Ling (38:59):
It's not something that what I'm hearing is almost
a definition and an intentionaldevelopment of maturity, not oh
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
A.J. Mathieu (39:09):
Yeah for sure, yeah, yeah, I mean the whole
environment should help peoplegrow, no doubt about it.
Yeah, you know, I mean it wouldbe seen somewhat separated from
an intentional discipleshipprocess in the church.
But if, yeah, if you're engagedin serving in the church In a
good environment, I think itabsolutely is a growth
(39:29):
opportunity.
Yeah, for sure, I mean, Iexperienced that myself, you
know.
I mean I, for many, many yearswe attended a church that was
very focused on leadership,development and discipleship and
I thrived in that environment,you know, as as I became At a
capacity in which I wasinterested with some, some
(39:50):
leadership areas and teachingareas and receive feedback from
people and was able to thenexercise new skills and
knowledge as a tremendous growthenvironment, I wouldn't I
wouldn't be in the ministry I amtoday had I not been Brought up
in that and I'm talking aboutI'm only done like 15 years ago.
(40:11):
I mean I'm I'm not, I'm notsomebody that you know was in
church leadership sinceelementary school.
I mean I was later in life thatGod called me, you know, into a
vocational ministry and and itwas because of a church that was
really intentional With mydevelopment that created that
environment for me to thrive.
Valerie Ling (40:32):
Okay, so I think I'm a level one in your
structure.
So I you know, in music I don'tlead anybody in church, so but
I am on the music team.
So if I was within thatstructure, how would someone
evaluate?
Well, first of all See if I'mto be selected and then evaluate
(40:53):
it as a level one.
I mean broadly what happens.
A.J. Mathieu (40:57):
Yeah, I mean, for, for the most part, a level one
leader wouldn't, depending onagain on the position, there
wouldn't be much Necessary toqualify, and you know, even this
can be a hang-up in somechurches.
Some churches might say, well,you have to have been going here
for so long, you might evenhave to be a member.
You might, you might have to bea believer.
(41:18):
I mean, there's some churchesthat you don't have to be a
believer to open the door andsmile and greet somebody you
know.
I mean that's, that's okay.
But yeah, so I'm, if I'm notmistaken, I think somebody on
like a music team, worship team,would be a.
That would be a level two.
You don't feel like you'releading anyone because you don't
(41:40):
have a direct reports, but youare leading the congregation,
got the exercise of your talentif you're gifting, right, so
that would be a level two leader.
And yeah, so that's a littlebit different scenario.
Well, first of all, you have tohave some kind of talent.
We don't want people that don'tknow how to play their
instrument, holding aninstrument and trying to play it
(42:00):
on Sunday, or someone that youknow Can't sing in key.
Valerie Ling (42:05):
So there is a very loving AJ.
A.J. Mathieu (42:11):
Just to just make a joyful noise.
It doesn't matter what itsounds like.
Yeah, there there was some kindof qualification.
Whether you are aware of it ornot, you had to be qualified to
do.
Whatever you do, what do youplay an instrument or do you
sing?
What do you do, valerie?
Valerie Ling (42:27):
Yeah, I play the keyboard.
A.J. Mathieu (42:28):
Oh, okay, all right.
Valerie Ling (42:29):
Well, you know, but he auditioned me, aj, no one
auditioned you Look, I'm beinga bit cheeky, I get we saying I
think that some of these thingshappen intuitively.
Yeah, even if you don't spellit out intentionally, but I
think it's when we, when we havedifferent intuition about other
things.
So what does it mean for thecharacter of someone?
(42:50):
So I can get a bit hot underthe collar when I play with
other musicians at churchbecause I've come from a
different formation pathway.
You know some very strictformation pathways when I was a
young person, to be taught whatit is to be humble and to you
know my role is and things likethat.
But different people come fromdifferent pathways and have
(43:12):
different Understandings of whatit is to play music.
So I think what I'm hearing fromyou is and I think you're right
there's, there's an element ifwe can be very confused at
church.
There's, no, there's.
There can be very littleclarity and when that happens,
we attach our own meaning, ourown Analysis, and we're more
(43:33):
critical and more demanding ofone another as well.
And then ultimately, we go tothe leadership to say, well, you
solve it, you fix it, you'reresponsible for this.
Yeah, for for the way thingsare going or how I'm being
treated at church.
Would that be fair?
A.J. Mathieu (43:48):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean you mentioned clarity.
My our vice president, scottBall, quotes this frequently and
I don't remember who said it,but that clear is kind.
So when we're clear about Aboutpeople, the expectations that
we have for people, or howsomething is supposed to be
organized or operate, that isshowing kindness to them.
(44:09):
Otherwise we set them upperhaps for failure, yeah, or
you know we're embarrassment orsomething uncomfortable.
So, yeah, I think we need to, Ithink it it's helpful and it's
kind to define expectations, todefine processes and that helps
people to operate at At thegreatest, you know,
(44:30):
effectiveness that they can inthat environment.
So, yes, but everybody doescome in, you know, from
different, different points ofview and and with different
upbringings and they theydeveloped in different ways.
But that's not an excuse.
Then we can't excuse certainbehavior because, well, that's
just the way they were.
We need to better, just definewhat's expected in our
(44:51):
environment and then, you know,help them to to operate there.
That's you know, that'ssomething that you know.
Getting into again into churchesinternationally, you know, in
different cultures and contexts,is how much?
How much do we allow, based on,you know, the culture, to
(45:12):
inform what's right in thechurch?
You know, for us to, to developpeople and to operate in the
space and do the things that thechurch is called to do, and so
that can.
That can create conflict,especially in churches that you
know have a variety of cultures.
We deal a lot withinternational churches, which
means a church in a in a globalcity that has people from lots
(45:38):
of different places around theworld, all different cultures.
You know, in big global citiesSydney, berlin, tokyo you know
people that might be workingthere or just doing ministry or
school or something, and andthen they come together in the
church and we've got all ofthese different cultures and
(46:01):
worldviews and and then we'relike, okay, now what do we do?
You know, should we let thisperson what I perceive as as
something offensive, but it'snormal for them?
Do we just let that happen?
You know whose culture wins.
You know what.
What is, how are we going todefine this environment?
(46:24):
And these are struggles, youknow that, even in more subtle
circumstances, that just anyparticular church anywhere might
experience, because even ifwe're all the same, you know we
might everybody in our churchesfrom Australia, but even I don't
I know very little aboutAustralia, valerie, but maybe
we're.
You know somebody is comes fromthe far West versus somebody
(46:48):
from Brisbane, and they justhave they have different ideas
about the way things should work.
So, yeah, I mean this is thatbecomes the job of the pastor or
the or various leaders to towork this out.
But again, regardless of wherepeople come from, if we have
something that we can say here'show this is going to work,
(47:10):
here's how we do it here andhere's what we expect of you
it's then up to that individualto say, okay, I understand and
I'll do my best so maybe whenI'm even Getting from this, it's
quite interesting, is that evenbeing intentional about the
training of lay leadership?
Valerie Ling (47:27):
So do you see that as being Separate,
complementary?
How does it work with thediscipleship process?
Because I think in mostchurches your lay leaders don't
get trained in leadership.
You know you, you might gettrained how to lead a Bible
study or how to even write aBible study, but I don't think
there is any development for layleadership.
A.J. Mathieu (47:47):
Yeah, that's where we speak of leadership
development as a culture, not,you know, an event or a process.
Right, leaders, developingleaders should become the
culture of the church, so yeah.
So let's say I, I joined it.
I've been going to the churchfor a year or so.
I joined a small group and I'vegot this, this you know, this
(48:10):
man or woman leading my smallgroup Well, in in a church whose
culture it is to developleaders, that small group leader
knows that it's a component oftheir position, not only to
present the information you know, to lead a Bible study or to
lead other aspects of a smallgroup, but to understand the
personalities in their group andto help cultivate that.
(48:33):
You know, the gifting and thethings that the Lord has given
them To recognize.
You know, I mean, if, if we'rehaving eye out for people who
might be able to serve indifferent capacities, then Then
you know that's a great placethat they could.
You know, whenever the needcomes up, or if there's, you
know we just need more people toserve, you know we could say,
well, gosh, you know this guy,mark in my group, would be
(48:56):
fantastic for that.
I've gotten to know him and Ithink he would be a great fit
for that over there.
But you know it's.
It's a culture of recognizingpeople's traits, their
characteristics, theirpersonality and and their
strengths and helping themdevelop.
So versus, hey, we're gonnahave a, we're gonna a sermon
(49:20):
series on leadership or we'regonna start a leadership class.
You know, sometimes thosevenues and events are okay, but
better to have a church whoseculture it is to develop people.
Valerie Ling (49:32):
Yeah, I mean, that is, that is the heart of
transformation and leadership isyou journey the.
The leader journeys veryclosely with the other level
leaders and Develops thechurches, the mentors, them, is
personally interested in,invested and and invest their
time into that leadership andthe modeling happens and then
(49:52):
that level, you know, does thesame with the next level and it
goes down, isn't it?
Yeah?
A.J. Mathieu (49:59):
exactly Yep.
Well, this has been afascinating conversation.
Valerie Ling (50:04):
Hey, it's been a lot of fun, so thank you so much
for spending time with me, aj.
A.J. Mathieu (50:10):
Thank you.
It was a lot of fun at the timeflew by, so we'll have to do it
again.
Valerie Ling (50:15):
Cheers.
A.J. Mathieu (50:15):
You.
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