November 15, 2023 • 54 mins
As our season draws to a close, I began to contemplate leadership in a wider context, beyond just Australia and parish settings, I was drawn to explore international issues of leadership in gospel work.
Dive into the complexities of cross-cultural ministry with our guest, Harry Hoffman, a prominent figure in the Missions Member Care Network. With over two decades of experience in cross-cultural ministry and navigating the profound emotional impact of arrests, interrogation, and personal loss, Harry provides a unique insight into stress management, vulnerability, and resilience in ministry and mission.
Harry elucidates these nuances and underscores the pivotal role of self-awareness, introspection, and the place of scripture and personal beliefs on individual growth. We delve deep into the intricate relationship between emotions and decision-making, addressing the multifaceted leadership approaches essential for guiding cross-cultural teams and understanding diverse spiritual perspectives.
Our exploration further encompasses effective strategies to avert burnout in cross-cultural settings, touching on the significance of peer responsibility. The dialogue transitions to understanding the various dimensions of conflict and the therapeutic value of sharing one's struggles. Join us for a comprehensive episode that seeks to inform, inspire, and navigate the intricate facets of clergy well-being, cross-cultural ministry, international gospel work leadership dynamics, and more.
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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome everybody.
It's Valerie Ling here againand I have the great pleasure of
(00:48):
having a conversation withHarry Hoffman.
Harry has an incredible storyand I'm really interested to get
his views and his perspectivesof what we're seeing in the
clergy leadership and well-beingspace down under.
Harry, you've done a lot inyour life.
(01:09):
Could you just tell us yourcurrent role, Like, who is Harry
and what is Harry doing?
Harry Hoffman (01:18):
Harry has been living.
Harry is from Germany and mymid-fifties.
I lived in China for 23 yearsand over the last well always
been involved in counseling andmissionary care, member care
work.
First in Thailand, I startedthe Well Member Care Center in
(01:39):
Northern Thailand I and laterstarted several centers,
actually three centers in Chinaone counseling and training
center, one counseling for youthand teenagers center and then
another center in anotherprovince, more sensitive area,
(02:01):
where we also did therapy andtraining.
All together I had.
Maximum number of people I hadwas 30 staff and, yeah, I was
forced to leave the country thenat one point.
And but actually on a globallevel, I'm the leader of the
global member care network.
(02:22):
Member care meaning missionarycare network.
That is a network under theWorld Evangelical Alliance
Mission Commission and wecombine member care missionary
care practitioners.
About 6,000 people are in mynetwork and we exchange
(02:43):
information.
It's not just therapists butpeople who work with third
culture, kids, people who workin preparation of missionaries,
training of missionaries, thewhole flow of care, as we call
it, from recruitment to on fieldand then to retirement.
So you have the wholemissionary biography there, and
(03:05):
some of them are clergy andothers are just lay missionaries
.
Valerie Ling (03:10):
Thanks, harry, and you do.
You have quite a lot ofentrepreneurial activities in
the online world at the momentas well.
Harry Hoffman (03:18):
Yeah, it started during the COVID, when the
lockdown happened, maybe March2020,.
All of a sudden I was out ofjob and I thought, okay, what do
I do with my life?
And then I thought I startrecording video trainings on
YouTube, different formats likea 20 day and a 30 day course.
(03:42):
I did with daily videos and Ihad thousands of subscribers.
Since then.
I produced I don't know 700videos altogether many courses
on foundations of member care,on business as mission as well.
What else?
Furlough devotions is comingout soon and I think next month.
(04:06):
Furlough devotions it's a 20day devotional for
cross-cultural workers.
On furlough fundraising,different topics that relate to
cross-cultural workers.
Valerie Ling (04:18):
Most excellent, harry.
Do you get this?
A lot people say how do you doall of that?
How on earth do you produce allof that, harry?
Harry Hoffman (04:30):
When I operate in a stress zone that fits me.
So I don't like to be bored,but also not be overwhelmed with
work, and I actually enjoyworking, I enjoy output.
So I find my own balance thereof having an exciting,
(04:55):
challenging life with challenges, with tasks, and at the same
time also have leisure time, andthat works really well for me
and I adjust my workloadaccordingly.
So that's the advantage ofbeing a self led entrepreneur.
(05:16):
I don't work under a bossnecessarily who tells me every
day what to do, but I can adjustmy time.
So some weeks I work I don'tknow I work 80 hours, and other
weeks I work 10 hours, and thatworks really well for me.
Valerie Ling (05:30):
Harry, you've had quite a lot of stress in your
life.
You've had trauma as well.
What have been some of the mostsignificant events that you can
comfortably share with us?
Harry Hoffman (05:45):
Wow, that is the most easy really to talk about
is the arrest.
I was arrested in China by theChinese police.
There was actually twice in my23 years once in 1997, which was
(06:05):
more easier.
They also did a house search,found Bibles in our house, which
was not allowed.
We were reaching out toorphaned children with a gospel,
like children's stories,singing songs, and they didn't
like this.
But this arrest was sort ofeasy, although at that time we
worked in an orphanage and livedin an orphanage.
(06:27):
At that time I had two youngchildren, age one to three years
old, married, young family,young in cross-cultural work and
missions, young in leadership.
I spoke Chinese at that time,so I was immediately lifted into
leadership.
So that was high stress Maybenot traumatic, but it was
(06:49):
definitely high stress todealing.
It's like you cannot swim.
You jump into a pond of coldwater and you paddle.
You start to figure things out.
That was hard, plus the policeand the security.
Now I was arrested again in 2018, which was a very different
(07:09):
game, much more professionalapproach by the Chinese CIA.
So I was interrogated for 40hours.
Two of my kids were there aswell.
They were arrested with me.
That was quite challenging.
(07:31):
Now, as a result, I lost prettymuch everything my home, my
ministry.
My ministry was registered as abusiness, so I lost my business
, I lost my staff, so a homethat was home for 30 years I
lost, which was quite hard.
On a personal level, I wasmarried for almost 30 years when
(07:57):
my wife decided to look forother greener grass so let's put
it that way and left us.
So I'm divorced.
That was after a long time ofdoing ministry, of living
together, doing ministrytogether, and also embarrassing
(08:24):
and shameful, because as amissionary you are sort of
clergy like pastors, you're sortof the poster child of
Christianity.
And then you have to becomereal and say, well, I'm not your
poster child, I'm weak, I'mvulnerable, I have flaws and I
(08:44):
need to learn.
And there are consequences thatare visible.
For many of us the consequencesare not visible, they happen
behind closed doors, but adivorce is of a person who is
sort of a public person in acertain subculture of
Christianity is tough.
Valerie Ling (09:09):
When Josh and I met you last, you were sharing
your journey of walking throughthat pain and processing it, and
you really showed us how youhad to go through a journey of
really making connections withinyourself.
Are you naturally a reflectiveperson, harry?
Harry Hoffman (09:36):
Yeah, I would say yes, I was always from child,
from teenage years on, alwaysreflective, thinking about the
reason of life, integratingemotions with mental processes,
physical processes.
I enjoy sort of philosophicalthinking, questioning things,
(09:57):
and yeah, I think that reallyhelped me to.
And what also helped me wasthat I'm working with
psychologists.
I'm not a psychologist myself,but working in member care and
in counseling.
You have the benefit of sittingin classes and getting to know
one of the most outstandingcounselors in the field
(10:18):
psychiatrists.
Also, you mentioned that youspecialize in EMDR.
I remember in the early daysthere was a seminar when was
that?
Early 2000s?
A seminar by a psychiatrist onthe neurotransmitters after
trauma, how the brain changes,how the physiological situation
(10:42):
of the body changes after atrauma.
In particular, we had theAfghanistan 9-11, well, first
9-11 in New York and then theAfghanistan Taliban coming into
Afghanistan in the 2000s, andthen there was a terrorist
attack in Pakistan at aninternational school and all
(11:05):
these people who were working inPakistan-Afghanistan came to my
counseling center.
Well, not everyone, but manygoing through trainings and
getting informed about.
Yeah, we've been throughtraumatizing events and yeah,
this particular psychiatrist wastalking about symptoms,
(11:26):
normalizing symptoms like thisone child had bedwetting in his
15 years, 14 years old, and allof a sudden he starts peeing in
his bed at night and he can'tcontrol.
He feels embarrassed, yeah.
And so all I'm saying is I wassitting in class as well and
just learning and consuming allthe knowledge and information I
(11:47):
was able to get and realizing,yeah, there is much more to life
than just sharing the gospeland living like a robot.
There is a lot of reflectionthat is happening in me and I
actually enjoy that.
Valerie Ling (12:03):
So when these hard things have happened in your
life and you're moving fromstress to trauma to profound
loss just in what you said forthe main events in your life and
there's a lot of loss in thereas well Do you think that
(12:24):
someone can go through thosethings by themselves, not have
any assistance or counseling ortherapy, and come out in the
other end okay?
Harry Hoffman (12:34):
Yeah, there are these great movies right now on
Netflix the Extraction, I thinkit's called.
It's like the Rambo kind ofstyle, a hero.
In the 80s we had Rambo,sylvester Stallone, and we still
have those movies where the oneguy who saves the world is
highlighted.
Guys, this doesn't work.
(12:56):
This doesn't work.
You need help, what I then did.
Well, after my separation, Iwas then a single parent for a
while In China.
(13:17):
I realized I need help and thenI was looking for support
groups, for a trauma supportgroup that was online.
In China you don't have thesegroups where you can go to once
or twice a week.
I was looking for those online.
The trauma or PTSD group was inEnglish online.
(13:39):
And then I had a relationshippartnership, relationship
support group or for brokenrelationships in Germany that
was in German and that was very,very helpful, especially as I
was in China having no access topeople.
And then, after the arrest, Irealized I actually need more,
(14:00):
more help, more support, andthen I was choosing a few people
.
You have different kind ofresponses from the community.
Many people are curious why didthese things happen?
Do you have sin in your life,especially in our Christian
evangelical context?
You often deal not with a Godof grace, but with a God of
(14:24):
reward and punishment and people.
If people observe you gettingpunished, like you go through
hard times, oh there must be areason for why God leads you
through this.
So they are curious and otherresponses are just they want
facts like why did that happen?
(14:45):
And only a minor percentage ofresponses go towards how are you
doing?
I mean, that's why we havepsychologists, so that's why
there is you, valerie and yourteam.
Yeah, to just ask thesequestions like how are you doing
and how can you improve yourwell-being?
(15:06):
And, yeah, go ahead.
Valerie Ling (15:10):
It's interesting that as a psychologist, we
really are taught and we believethat insight is really
important for recovery.
If someone doesn't grow insightor have insight, it's actually
very hard to progress recovery.
In my research and in some ofthe other research that looks at
pastors in Australia, it seemsto suggest that pastors would
(15:33):
say that they are reflective,but they are not necessarily
using their reflection to gaininsight or awareness.
Does that surprise you?
Harry Hoffman (15:49):
Not doesn't really surprise me.
No, pastors also missionariesare used to giving, so
information you consummate, youpackage it for the next sermon.
You are in the helping business, in the helping ministry, just
like medical doctors or nursesthe healthcare fields.
(16:13):
You are always giving and notreally used to reflections.
That has to be learned really.
In small groups, where thepastor has no responsibilities,
like the peer support really,and the groups I was in the
online groups, I was nobody.
(16:34):
I even used the fake name sopeople don't even recognize who
I am, and that was reallyhelpful to be also challenged
and ask questions.
In order to really work onmyself.
I also bought books.
This one book that's a Germanbook the child in me needs to
(16:58):
find a home, or something likethis and it was about the shadow
child and the sunny child andit was actually a workbook and
it works and that was reallyamazingly helpful in this phase.
So, confronting myself with myinner beliefs, the negative
(17:20):
beliefs, really I'm not worthy.
I'm only worthy if I perform, orI'm only lovable if I do
certain things influenced fromparents and from other people,
especially during those crisisevents, they were like a how do
you call this in English?
A Damocles sort like a sortalmost like a curse over my life
(17:44):
, my wrong beliefs, and Isuffered under those those wrong
beliefs going through my mindWell, I'm not a person who gets
depressed necessarily, but likedowncast, my soul is downcast
more like this and I needed toget rid of those.
(18:05):
I've really felt like this isnot from God, but they have
manifested themselves sostrongly in my mind.
And yeah, and then I workedwith this book, reflecting on
myself, and then I ended withthe sunny child, so like what
does the Bible say?
Well, the book wasn't Christianbut I applied it then what does
the Bible say about me and whatdo I want to believe about me?
(18:29):
And yeah, and so slowly worked.
I think I used this book forabout six months, really
reflecting and working on myself.
Valerie Ling (18:39):
Harry, couldn't we fast forward that process?
If we, just if we read theBible and read those truths, his
grace is sufficient for me.
Couldn't we fast forward that?
Why do we need to go throughall of that reflection and inner
work?
Why not just read the Bible andarrive at those conclusions?
Harry Hoffman (19:00):
Believe and everything is great.
What does it say?
I think it's Romans fiveSuffering leads to perseverance,
endurance, endurance leads tocharacter development, character
development leads to hope, andit's a process and you look
through many of the biographiesin the Bible, like the story of
(19:21):
Joseph and the Old Testament,you have all the process.
You have high vision, high hopeand, yeah, the reality is not
really a faith and everythingwill be great.
The reality is that, well, lifeand God allows that as well
leads us through challengingtimes and actually in our
(19:46):
counseling training in China, wechose people Like we had only a
limited number of spots andthen we chose people who went
through their life crisisalready.
I sort of believe that everybodygoes through crisis in their
lives and then a good counseloris someone who is aware of their
(20:09):
life crisis and has, to acertain extent, worked through
that.
So don't feel like I'm a poorvictim and everybody is bad and
I'm good, but sort of has grownthrough that to a certain extent
.
And that was part of ourinterview, of interviewing
candidates for our counselingtraining, and it worked out
(20:31):
really well because they hadsomething to talk about and
there was a level ofauthenticity and transparency
about their inner life.
Yeah, and that was very helpful.
So you can't fast forward toanswer your question.
Valerie Ling (20:45):
I was once asked at a conference, Harry, if I
could teach self-awareness in 30minutes.
Harry Hoffman (20:53):
Okay.
Valerie Ling (20:55):
I haven't found the solution to that.
Harry Hoffman (20:58):
I did that once with sort of sculpturing and
that was also in China.
I asked people to make a facelike a physical expression of
joy and that was actuallyhelpful in them being self-aware
and interpersonally paired themup, and there was one person
(21:21):
did the self-expression of joywith their body and face and the
other one had to copy that andcomment on that and obviously
then the other emotions sadness,fear, anger, and as people
express that physically with atense body posture yeah, you get
(21:41):
a good feel of, or they get agood feel of, self-awareness and
how that applies to their life.
Valerie Ling (21:49):
I think it's interesting that you talked
about actually getting people toexperience emotion.
In Australia, in our clientgroup with pastors Passes very
often aren't aware of theiremotions, nor can they describe
it.
In fact, I would say that wewould see a kind of a suspicion
about bringing emotion intomaking sense of our decisions or
(22:15):
what we're doing.
I'm curious, being part ofglobal member care and being a
part of the global mission scenewhen it comes to Christian
leadership, I mean, what aresome of the challenges that
you're seeing for leaders inministry with regards to stress
or burnout or conflict?
(22:35):
What are you seeing happening?
Harry Hoffman (22:41):
Well, I'm part of the global mission community
and that, again, is quite uniqueand different to people who are
stationed in one location.
The mobility of that communityis pretty high.
People move to differentcountries, different contexts,
cultures, languages.
(23:02):
Some do that as singles and youhave that also in your research
the differentiation betweensingles and couples and families
.
It was just that a birthdayparty of a 40 year old woman who
is a missionary and a singlewoman 40, very different
(23:27):
processes there in a foreignnation than a family, for
example.
So you have singleness,families moving.
You have issues of kids, kidseducation, language, cultural
identity.
The kids change their identity.
I have three daughters they aremarried to.
(23:51):
Like three daughters fromGermany are married to an
American, a guy from Zimbabweand a guy from the Netherlands.
So none of them gets married toa German.
So these are the consequencesand therefore also the stressors
.
People are aware of the changesand the consequences of an
(24:14):
international lifestyle.
That adds to the stressors,which are different than an
add-on to the normal stressorsof an occupation, really.
So the stressors areeducational needs, interpersonal
needs, interpersonal challenges, conflicts, cross-cultural
(24:37):
challenges.
And you mentioned emotionsworking in different cultures
you have very different kinds ofthe disclosing of emotions.
Some are really clearlyexpressed, like Argentine,
argentina they express this verydirectly, very clearly Germans
(24:59):
as well.
While a Thailand culture is,there is always the smile and
you have to read behind thesmile to figure out what the
emotion there is, if you chooseto do that or if there is a need
to do that.
So yeah, so this is quitechallenging.
Valerie Ling (25:46):
So you have a course or you've put out some
material on leadership.
So how do you?
What are the broad principlesthen that someone in mission can
apply in leadership, with allof those differences?
Harry Hoffman (26:02):
The course on leadership is, first of all, a
series of different inputs.
I discovered that people losetheir calling when they it's a
bit like the Joseph story in theOld Testament, like the dreamer
goes out and then realizes heends up in Potiphar's house
(26:25):
Potiphar's house as a slave andserving somebody else not his
own vision, not God, but workingas a slave.
Then he ends up in prison andonly in the end of his life he
actually sees his calling beingrealized, his dreams being
realized.
And part one of this leadershipcourse is how do you actually
(26:49):
Like it's called focused leader?
How do you actually stay oncourse?
How do you like write this down?
What are the elements of yourlife that help you to stay on
track?
Or we call this true north, orstay like your compass is set,
because most of thecross-cultural workers
(27:10):
missionaries.
They start this with a veryclear word from God prayer, high
motivation.
God told me to reach a certainpeople group or to serve the
orphans in, I don't know, inEthiopia or somewhere.
And then they go there andafter two or three years they
(27:31):
lose their high stress.
The effects of the high stressis they lose their calling, they
don't know why they are therethey lose their God relationship
and they feel disappointed byGod and, yeah, and losing faith,
etc.
So there are strains on thespiritual life and the first
(27:57):
course then is about how do youstay on track?
And then I realized there areothers who well, in
cross-cultural work, you easilyend up in leadership very
quickly.
People have no idea how to lead, especially a cross-cultural
team.
And staying in your own country, in your own context.
(28:19):
Maybe you see examples here andthere where you can find
orientation, people who are astep ahead of you.
But in cross-cultural ministry,well, I have a 25-year-old
leading a team of 10 people,different ages, different
nationalities.
They don't know what they aredoing, and so this course, then,
(28:40):
will help people on how to lead.
Like small group leadership,these guys then have books by
Steve Jobs in their shelf or theAmazon Jeff Bezos.
That's not helpful.
That's like a multinationalcooperation with 50,000 staff.
(29:00):
It doesn't help a person wholeads a group of 10
international, intergenerationalpeople.
So, well, it's a different styleof leadership.
Well, what we learned throughthe Apple person is Steve Jobs
(29:22):
is more a visionary, is more theinnovative, the confrontative
leadership style, veryprofessional stage performance
and very convinced.
He's also a marketing guy,steve Jobs, so very convinced
about his products and a very,very good communicator In
cross-cultural teams of 10people.
(29:44):
You need to.
Many cultures are high-contextcultures, which means you need
relationships.
Well, as a leader, you don'tstand on stage and market your
product.
As a leader, you have meals.
You share about your life story, you share about even emotions
(30:05):
to a culturally appropriateextent.
You introduce your family, yougo on an outing, you go to
church together and then youwork together.
So, as a German, I'mlow-context.
I don't need that.
I work first and then, if wehave time, we go for a meal.
(30:26):
Most cultures around the worldare high-context.
They first need the meal, then,during the meal, they decide if
they want to work with you ornot.
So very different approaches.
If you're a new leader to ateam, you also need to balance
between generations.
You have high generations andnations If you work with a
(30:52):
50-year-old Korean and you are a20-year-old German leader it
has to be a certain honor andrespect towards the 50-year-old
Korean.
You need to be aware of how thatworks.
How do you get the 50-year-oldKorean to do what you want him
to do?
Many challenges are verydiverse.
(31:16):
Then you have servantleadership, biblical leadership
models.
How much do you serve?
How much do you actually givedirection?
It's a challenge that createsstress and frustration and anger
.
How do you express anger in across-cultural team?
What is good anger?
(31:37):
What is bad anger?
Valerie Ling (31:41):
A lot of what you said can apply to a typical
church in Sydney.
First of all, even theAustralian research on pastors
would say that the call inconviction language is.
We don't all agree on that, butcertainly a sense of a
conviction to serve the Lord isso important.
(32:04):
Without that, and if yourspiritual life is impacted as a
minister, that's the number onething that's probably going to
bring you down Profoundspiritual discouragement and
feeling lost in the wilderness.
Secondly, I think what you weresaying about it being
intergenerational as well ascross-cultural Sydney has now
(32:26):
become very cross-cultural.
I think we don't reallyunderstand the different
generations either in ourchurches.
I think everything that you'vejust said is very interesting,
because I myself have thisquestion for myself, in that, as
a leader of psychologists, whoare mainly women, I can't do
(32:52):
Steve Jobs.
I think they'll all leave.
You can't be high-tech, you'vegot to be high-touch, and so I
myself, in my own context,really understand that I've got
to lead in a different way fromwhat I read in the books, and
(33:12):
there's a lot of books that youcan read about that.
Harry Hoffman (33:18):
In addition to that I mean there are so many
levels here the spiritualdevelopment of people, like they
lose faith, and I have thissort of model of five stages of
spiritual development, thewarrior style Some people are in
that and they operate in that.
Everything is spiritual war,spiritual mapping.
(33:38):
We have to fight the enemy weare, and there is the God
described in scripture as wellas the Lord of the war, Like he
is leading the army.
And then you have to adjust asa leader and also as a team
member.
You have to adjust to memberswho are focused or primarily
(33:59):
operate in this kind of mindset.
Then you have the right andwrong people, the sin and well
truth, kind of dichotomy, or thedualistic sort of thinking
where we'll just do the rightthings right and leave the wrong
(34:19):
things, and then God will blessyou.
Then you have the running therace and finish the race first.
Then you get the reward, thepoor line, theology, people who
are always optimizing themselves, always improving what else to
have.
Then you have the counselor,the father of God, kind of
people who are oh, let's allcounsel each other and let's
(34:40):
look into the emotions for that.
For some they don't know youmentioned that before.
They don't know how to do that,they don't even want to do that
, they refuse to do that.
Why should I look into myemotions?
Let's just get on with the work.
But many like this, the touchykind of the community, the
(35:03):
consensus seeking.
There's also a leadershipapplication there, where you
don't lead by decision makingbut by consensus and not just
democratic, where you have 51%.
Some international teams, theleadership team they have to
have 100%, Otherwise they don'tdo it in that decision making.
(35:26):
Then you have the.
I think the last one is sort ofthe networking people who
operate on a global scale andthey look for other resources.
So the lead by the Holy Spiritmaybe that's a good description.
(35:46):
Or the Gospel of John talksabout he's in me and I'm in him
as he is in us.
I can't quote that right now,but as the father is in me,
Jesus says I am in you and youare in the father.
I think something like this.
So there is a networking kindof yeah, and so what I'm saying
(36:09):
is that people so you havegenerations, then you have
economical background or societysegment backgrounds, the
educational backgrounds, youhave gender and you have
spiritual phases.
People are in and operating incultures, languages and
(36:31):
cross-cultural work.
Maybe it's in Sydney the sameway.
You have different languages aswell, and people can't
communicate with each other.
Valerie Ling (36:38):
So how do we fix this?
This sounds awfully complicated.
How does one actually,therefore, develop to lead in
such a complicated setting?
Harry Hoffman (36:49):
Well, that's a good question.
You don't need to get marriedto all of them.
So project related is really.
Yeah, have some tasks, definetasks and work on those tasks
together and have conversations.
(37:11):
How do we do this?
What do people actually need tofeel part of the team to
accomplish these tasks?
It's challenging, but it's nota marriage.
It's a ministry team usuallyand they have to learn how to
work together, how to ministertogether in all of these areas.
Valerie Ling (37:35):
I'd love to understand and hear your
thoughts about burnout inministry.
Do you think it's a thing?
Does it exist?
Harry Hoffman (37:45):
Well, we have to define burnout first.
Burnout the term is really,it's the end of the engine.
The engine explodes and the cardoesn't move anymore.
So there is a stress, there isa traffic light, there is a
green stress, there is a yellowstress and a red stress, and it
(38:06):
goes both ways.
People work too much, but alsopeople working too little or
being challenged in their livestoo little.
You have that in cross-culturalministry too like a 40-year-old
manager ends up back home, endsup as a language student in
(38:28):
China, feels underwhelmed, under, challenged, under what do I do
with my life?
So that's high stress, and thenthey burn out.
I had a guy whose wife wasreally Leha, really strong and
active, and he felt like I'm inthe shadow of my wife and I have
(38:50):
nothing to do, I have nothingto show off.
I feel underwhelmed.
So they move then into thenegative stress, so to speak.
That can also lead to burnout.
If your car stands in thegarage too long, it doesn't
start anymore either.
(39:11):
So you have those elements.
And then you have the highperformance, high stress.
Where the battery is has.
No, you always need enoughbattery for crisis cause in
cross-cultural ministry, youwill always have crisis.
Your visa doesn't come through,there's a sickness, you need a
doctor that is not available, etcetera, et cetera.
(39:34):
You always need buffer, kind ofreserves, and so the term
burnout then means if we use thephone, then the phone dies,
then there is no more connection.
So if your phone goes into red,you gotta do something about it
.
That's definitely a problem.
(39:54):
How to prevent that is probablythe question.
Oof there are well, there aredifferent responsibilities there
.
There's an individualresponsibility.
There is a peer responsibilityand also, within organizations,
a leadership responsibility thatleaders, if you're part of a
(40:17):
organizational structure, shoulddo an assessment ever so often,
maybe once a year.
They can do this in-house orhire somebody like you to do
that with them.
There are good assessments outthere that gauge the.
It's like your blood work, likeI do my.
(40:37):
I check my blood work once ayear and then I can compare this
to the last years.
So you do the same test everyyear.
You sort of see where you areat in your stress level and you
differentiate different areas oflife personal, occupational,
psychological, trauma, I don'tknow peer, family, marriage, et
(41:00):
cetera, different areas and thenyou can gauge that a bit.
Valerie Ling (41:05):
What's the peer responsibility, harry?
So you said the individual, andI think I can understand that.
That's you working on your carepractices and making sure that
you've got energy in your tank.
And then you talked about theorganizational responsibility.
But what's the peerresponsibility?
What's that?
Harry Hoffman (41:23):
I think the Bible talks 50 times or 100 times
about the one and others.
So the Bible is really peerfocused serve one another, care
for one another, challenge oneanother, love one another, carry
one another's burdens.
So if you see me stressed, thenif you see your brother and
(41:44):
sister stressed, you've got todo something about this.
Just making them work harderand more is missing.
The point is actually missingscripture.
So to carry one another'sburdens, if I see someone cry, I
need to be the Emmanuel.
(42:05):
God is with us for them, notjust trust God, that God will be
there, but also be the Emmanuelin flesh and blood for that
person.
So there is a peerresponsibility that we need to
learn in the body of Christ andmission in the church, et cetera
, where it's not always what yousee is what you get, like I
(42:28):
look happy but you have no ideahow I am doing inside.
So, but as peer, as friends,friends and family, small groups
in church, it's not just aboutspiritual growth and gaining
knowledge.
It's about carrying oneanother's burdens to fulfill the
(42:49):
law of Christ, and that's so,so key to learn that.
And we learn that by learninghow to connect, learning how to
talk about emotions, learninghow to listen to each other and
summarizing what we're hearing.
Valerie Ling (43:07):
I often find that when I'm interacting with
Christian community that therecan be a suspicion to that
process of supporting oneanother.
It's almost like then we'rejust becoming lazy, whinging,
complaining people, so it's bestthat we just get on with it.
(43:27):
Toughen up.
After all, Hudson Taylor, BillyGraham did you ever hear them
whinge?
Well, I don't know, maybe theydid.
To know, that tends to be thekind of, sometimes, I think,
what we think when we hear ourpeople in ministry say we're
(43:48):
struggling.
Harry Hoffman (43:51):
Yeah, like let's not put them in cotton wool.
Cotton wool is the word.
Yeah, put them in cotton wool.
Yeah, you have Hudson Taylor,who had problems if you read the
biographies well, and WilliamCarey.
Anyway, His wife was psychosisor was depressed or something
and he's the hero of modernmissions, but his personal life
(44:15):
was really challenged and Ithink there was a biography
about his wife that came outrecently by William Carey
Library to also highlight thatpart.
So it's so important tohighlight.
There was another book, I think, Open Doors.
I forgot the author who wroteabout the stories untold.
(44:41):
I think it's called the stories.
These are the stories, not thehero stories, but people who
were part of the hero story butwho suffered under these hero
stories, and those stories needto be told.
Like a Chinese pastor's wife,husband went to prison, was
pronounced dead in prison andshe survived like she wasn't put
(45:04):
in prison and she grieved for afew years, then got remarried
and then one day she presumedher husband was dead but he
actually wasn't dead.
10 years later he showed up ather door and she was buried
again and there was so muchshame and guilt that she killed
(45:26):
herself.
So stories untold yeah, theseare real stories we have to face
.
There's nothing.
I mean you can't do this toomuch to be, but I don't think
missionaries have that problem.
They are full of vision,usually an energy that they want
(45:47):
to.
They go out to achievesomething.
And a bit of support doesn'thelp.
A bit of one another doesn'tnot, doesn't help.
A bit of support doesn't harm.
A bit of one another doesn'tharm.
In the contrary, it actuallyhelps people to stay healthy.
Valerie Ling (46:08):
One of the things that Josh and I really enjoyed
about your time with us in theconference that we met you was
your model of conflict.
I don't have the visual here,but it was this, this analysis,
if you like, of levels ofconflict, and in the research
(46:31):
that I conducted it was sad tosee that the levels of conflict
experienced by our pastors atthe level of, you know, physical
, sexual assault, gossip andslander, feeling bullied,
filling tears.
You know really personal,personal levels of conflict and
(46:55):
I get the impression when I'mout and about in you know,
church dumb, that we just thinkthat conflict is conflict.
You know there'll always beconflict in church, that's
normal, right, and that's all.
That should not lead to thingslike trauma.
What's you know what's the bigdeal?
What are your thoughts on that,harry?
Harry Hoffman (47:16):
Yes, we usually, when we talk about conflict in
the church, we talk about this,matthew 15 or so go to the
person yourself.
Then, like, if somebody hassinned against you, it says then
go to the person.
If that person doesn't listen,take someone.
And if that person stilldoesn't listen, then take him to
the eldership, something likethis.
(47:36):
And I feel like conflict ismuch more complex and
progressive, graduallyprogressive.
Then it's not sinning against me.
It starts with tension.
Yeah, maybe a smalldisagreement and tension, and
you swallow it down.
Yeah, I can do this.
And and maybe next time I slamthe door, you know, to just tell
(48:02):
you that, like non verbally,tell you that I actually
disagree with you, or I changemy face or so.
And these are like they're outthere.
The first there is a nine stepmodel.
The first three steps.
They say that you can actuallysolve this yourself through self
(48:23):
reflection.
And maybe, yeah, maybe, talk tothe person.
Hey, I misunderstood you, orwhat did you mean by saying that
I was part of a coalition,actually initiated a coalition
(48:47):
against another person who hadhis own coalition, and that was
sort of the middle, the three,the 456 levels of conflict.
This is when you publicly blamesomeone, you make the other
person lose face, you blame yeah, he's a bad person, he's not
(49:09):
trustworthy, and you don't thinkthat.
So you don't talk about that ina small group, you make that
public, and yeah.
And then the last three isreally when it's too late, when
it's called together into theabyss, when you, when you, when
you strike, destructive youroffenses against the other
(49:34):
person, you want to, you wantthis other person to leave, to
not be there anymore, and in theend is, even if it kills me, as
long as you are dead, that weare happy.
Sort of these, these kind ofthese kind of levels and yeah,
and, and each of these ninelevels can, can, can have a
(49:56):
different approach on how toconfront.
So it's not just forgiving andforgetting and pull the log out
of your eyes before you.
Yeah, it's much more difficult,much more diverse than what we
ensure.
We can use scriptures with allthose nine levels, but but we
(50:20):
don't usually use them.
We put them on into one box, asyou say, and then this should
fix.
It doesn't work that way.
How does the church level impactmissions?
Well, overall, there is a lossof trust in leadership.
Definitely.
There's a reality check thathigh level.
(50:43):
Leaders are not the superman,super women of this, but we want
to make them to that.
We people need heroes.
We have the Marvel movies.
People need heroes and theymake pastors and Christian
leaders to heroes.
They stand in public and theygive orientation to many who
(51:08):
feel like they are less thanthose heroes, public people and
if they fall, the consequencesof that fall is not just on a on
a local level.
I mean the news that hit your,your news stations, also hit the
international news stations andhas a consequence, so they
(51:31):
people fall off the pedestal, soto speak.
Valerie Ling (51:35):
So, harry, the last word from you.
If there is a pastor who'slistening to us and they are
discouraged, hurt and wounded inthe battle, what would you want
to say to them?
Harry Hoffman (51:50):
I've talked to someone.
Find someone.
Talk to someone.
The first person you talk tomight not give you the right
feel.
Find someone else.
Choose 10 people you want totalk to and and be intentional
about opening up and, as you dothis, learn what you actually
(52:12):
need.
Maybe, as I say, maybe thefirst person you talk to gives
you the wrong answers orsomething you don't want to hear
.
Learn from that, try again andthen tell the next person I
don't want to hear this, give meanother answer.
And so teach your your opposite, what you kind of need from
(52:34):
them.
And by the 10th person you willadd 100%.
Sure, you have 10 people youtalk to.
One person out of that, 10 givesyou what you actually need
level of empathy, understanding,level of yeah, of connection
that you need to feel relaxed toshare about your life.
And then the one another's canhelp.
(52:55):
Doesn't need to be apsychologist or counselor, can
just be a friend, maybe spouse,someone where.
But we got to talk about ourstuffs.
We got to find space to unloadsome of our burdens, not just
talk about football and the lastholiday and the weather, but
(53:16):
actually go deeper in our heartshow, how life has changed us,
how, how circumstances havechanged our image of God, our
calling, our sense of identity,our sense of love.
Also, many don't feel lovedanymore, etc.
So that's find someone.
(53:37):
Find someone that's really soimportant.
Valerie Ling (53:41):
Oh, harry, thank you so much.
I mean right there, I think wasan ebook.
We've got lots of really richresources and links.
So I'll be sure that when thisactually heads out into the,
(54:04):
into the world, we put yourlinks in there.
But thanks so much for spendingtime with me, harry.
Harry Hoffman (54:11):
Thank you for having me Real pleasure.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Welcome everybody.
It's Valerie Ling here againand I have the great pleasure of
(00:48):
having a conversation withHarry Hoffman.
Harry has an incredible storyand I'm really interested to get
his views and his perspectivesof what we're seeing in the
clergy leadership and well-beingspace down under.
Harry, you've done a lot inyour life.
(01:09):
Could you just tell us yourcurrent role, Like, who is Harry
and what is Harry doing?
Harry Hoffman (01:18):
Harry has been living.
Harry is from Germany and mymid-fifties.
I lived in China for 23 yearsand over the last well always
been involved in counseling andmissionary care, member care
work.
First in Thailand, I startedthe Well Member Care Center in
(01:39):
Northern Thailand I and laterstarted several centers,
actually three centers in Chinaone counseling and training
center, one counseling for youthand teenagers center and then
another center in anotherprovince, more sensitive area,
(02:01):
where we also did therapy andtraining.
All together I had.
Maximum number of people I hadwas 30 staff and, yeah, I was
forced to leave the country thenat one point.
And but actually on a globallevel, I'm the leader of the
global member care network.
(02:22):
Member care meaning missionarycare network.
That is a network under theWorld Evangelical Alliance
Mission Commission and wecombine member care missionary
care practitioners.
About 6,000 people are in mynetwork and we exchange
(02:43):
information.
It's not just therapists butpeople who work with third
culture, kids, people who workin preparation of missionaries,
training of missionaries, thewhole flow of care, as we call
it, from recruitment to on fieldand then to retirement.
So you have the wholemissionary biography there, and
(03:05):
some of them are clergy andothers are just lay missionaries
.
Valerie Ling (03:10):
Thanks, harry, and you do.
You have quite a lot ofentrepreneurial activities in
the online world at the momentas well.
Harry Hoffman (03:18):
Yeah, it started during the COVID, when the
lockdown happened, maybe March2020,.
All of a sudden I was out ofjob and I thought, okay, what do
I do with my life?
And then I thought I startrecording video trainings on
YouTube, different formats likea 20 day and a 30 day course.
(03:42):
I did with daily videos and Ihad thousands of subscribers.
Since then.
I produced I don't know 700videos altogether many courses
on foundations of member care,on business as mission as well.
What else?
Furlough devotions is comingout soon and I think next month.
(04:06):
Furlough devotions it's a 20day devotional for
cross-cultural workers.
On furlough fundraising,different topics that relate to
cross-cultural workers.
Valerie Ling (04:18):
Most excellent, harry.
Do you get this?
A lot people say how do you doall of that?
How on earth do you produce allof that, harry?
Harry Hoffman (04:30):
When I operate in a stress zone that fits me.
So I don't like to be bored,but also not be overwhelmed with
work, and I actually enjoyworking, I enjoy output.
So I find my own balance thereof having an exciting,
(04:55):
challenging life with challenges, with tasks, and at the same
time also have leisure time, andthat works really well for me
and I adjust my workloadaccordingly.
So that's the advantage ofbeing a self led entrepreneur.
(05:16):
I don't work under a bossnecessarily who tells me every
day what to do, but I can adjustmy time.
So some weeks I work I don'tknow I work 80 hours, and other
weeks I work 10 hours, and thatworks really well for me.
Valerie Ling (05:30):
Harry, you've had quite a lot of stress in your
life.
You've had trauma as well.
What have been some of the mostsignificant events that you can
comfortably share with us?
Harry Hoffman (05:45):
Wow, that is the most easy really to talk about
is the arrest.
I was arrested in China by theChinese police.
There was actually twice in my23 years once in 1997, which was
(06:05):
more easier.
They also did a house search,found Bibles in our house, which
was not allowed.
We were reaching out toorphaned children with a gospel,
like children's stories,singing songs, and they didn't
like this.
But this arrest was sort ofeasy, although at that time we
worked in an orphanage and livedin an orphanage.
(06:27):
At that time I had two youngchildren, age one to three years
old, married, young family,young in cross-cultural work and
missions, young in leadership.
I spoke Chinese at that time,so I was immediately lifted into
leadership.
So that was high stress Maybenot traumatic, but it was
(06:49):
definitely high stress todealing.
It's like you cannot swim.
You jump into a pond of coldwater and you paddle.
You start to figure things out.
That was hard, plus the policeand the security.
Now I was arrested again in 2018, which was a very different
(07:09):
game, much more professionalapproach by the Chinese CIA.
So I was interrogated for 40hours.
Two of my kids were there aswell.
They were arrested with me.
That was quite challenging.
(07:31):
Now, as a result, I lost prettymuch everything my home, my
ministry.
My ministry was registered as abusiness, so I lost my business
, I lost my staff, so a homethat was home for 30 years I
lost, which was quite hard.
On a personal level, I wasmarried for almost 30 years when
(07:57):
my wife decided to look forother greener grass so let's put
it that way and left us.
So I'm divorced.
That was after a long time ofdoing ministry, of living
together, doing ministrytogether, and also embarrassing
(08:24):
and shameful, because as amissionary you are sort of
clergy like pastors, you're sortof the poster child of
Christianity.
And then you have to becomereal and say, well, I'm not your
poster child, I'm weak, I'mvulnerable, I have flaws and I
(08:44):
need to learn.
And there are consequences thatare visible.
For many of us the consequencesare not visible, they happen
behind closed doors, but adivorce is of a person who is
sort of a public person in acertain subculture of
Christianity is tough.
Valerie Ling (09:09):
When Josh and I met you last, you were sharing
your journey of walking throughthat pain and processing it, and
you really showed us how youhad to go through a journey of
really making connections withinyourself.
Are you naturally a reflectiveperson, harry?
Harry Hoffman (09:36):
Yeah, I would say yes, I was always from child,
from teenage years on, alwaysreflective, thinking about the
reason of life, integratingemotions with mental processes,
physical processes.
I enjoy sort of philosophicalthinking, questioning things,
(09:57):
and yeah, I think that reallyhelped me to.
And what also helped me wasthat I'm working with
psychologists.
I'm not a psychologist myself,but working in member care and
in counseling.
You have the benefit of sittingin classes and getting to know
one of the most outstandingcounselors in the field
(10:18):
psychiatrists.
Also, you mentioned that youspecialize in EMDR.
I remember in the early daysthere was a seminar when was
that?
Early 2000s?
A seminar by a psychiatrist onthe neurotransmitters after
trauma, how the brain changes,how the physiological situation
(10:42):
of the body changes after atrauma.
In particular, we had theAfghanistan 9-11, well, first
9-11 in New York and then theAfghanistan Taliban coming into
Afghanistan in the 2000s, andthen there was a terrorist
attack in Pakistan at aninternational school and all
(11:05):
these people who were working inPakistan-Afghanistan came to my
counseling center.
Well, not everyone, but manygoing through trainings and
getting informed about.
Yeah, we've been throughtraumatizing events and yeah,
this particular psychiatrist wastalking about symptoms,
(11:26):
normalizing symptoms like thisone child had bedwetting in his
15 years, 14 years old, and allof a sudden he starts peeing in
his bed at night and he can'tcontrol.
He feels embarrassed, yeah.
And so all I'm saying is I wassitting in class as well and
just learning and consuming allthe knowledge and information I
(11:47):
was able to get and realizing,yeah, there is much more to life
than just sharing the gospeland living like a robot.
There is a lot of reflectionthat is happening in me and I
actually enjoy that.
Valerie Ling (12:03):
So when these hard things have happened in your
life and you're moving fromstress to trauma to profound
loss just in what you said forthe main events in your life and
there's a lot of loss in thereas well Do you think that
(12:24):
someone can go through thosethings by themselves, not have
any assistance or counseling ortherapy, and come out in the
other end okay?
Harry Hoffman (12:34):
Yeah, there are these great movies right now on
Netflix the Extraction, I thinkit's called.
It's like the Rambo kind ofstyle, a hero.
In the 80s we had Rambo,sylvester Stallone, and we still
have those movies where the oneguy who saves the world is
highlighted.
Guys, this doesn't work.
(12:56):
This doesn't work.
You need help, what I then did.
Well, after my separation, Iwas then a single parent for a
while In China.
(13:17):
I realized I need help and thenI was looking for support
groups, for a trauma supportgroup that was online.
In China you don't have thesegroups where you can go to once
or twice a week.
I was looking for those online.
The trauma or PTSD group was inEnglish online.
(13:39):
And then I had a relationshippartnership, relationship
support group or for brokenrelationships in Germany that
was in German and that was very,very helpful, especially as I
was in China having no access topeople.
And then, after the arrest, Irealized I actually need more,
(14:00):
more help, more support, andthen I was choosing a few people
.
You have different kind ofresponses from the community.
Many people are curious why didthese things happen?
Do you have sin in your life,especially in our Christian
evangelical context?
You often deal not with a Godof grace, but with a God of
(14:24):
reward and punishment and people.
If people observe you gettingpunished, like you go through
hard times, oh there must be areason for why God leads you
through this.
So they are curious and otherresponses are just they want
facts like why did that happen?
(14:45):
And only a minor percentage ofresponses go towards how are you
doing?
I mean, that's why we havepsychologists, so that's why
there is you, valerie and yourteam.
Yeah, to just ask thesequestions like how are you doing
and how can you improve yourwell-being?
(15:06):
And, yeah, go ahead.
Valerie Ling (15:10):
It's interesting that as a psychologist, we
really are taught and we believethat insight is really
important for recovery.
If someone doesn't grow insightor have insight, it's actually
very hard to progress recovery.
In my research and in some ofthe other research that looks at
pastors in Australia, it seemsto suggest that pastors would
(15:33):
say that they are reflective,but they are not necessarily
using their reflection to gaininsight or awareness.
Does that surprise you?
Harry Hoffman (15:49):
Not doesn't really surprise me.
No, pastors also missionariesare used to giving, so
information you consummate, youpackage it for the next sermon.
You are in the helping business, in the helping ministry, just
like medical doctors or nursesthe healthcare fields.
(16:13):
You are always giving and notreally used to reflections.
That has to be learned really.
In small groups, where thepastor has no responsibilities,
like the peer support really,and the groups I was in the
online groups, I was nobody.
(16:34):
I even used the fake name sopeople don't even recognize who
I am, and that was reallyhelpful to be also challenged
and ask questions.
In order to really work onmyself.
I also bought books.
This one book that's a Germanbook the child in me needs to
(16:58):
find a home, or something likethis and it was about the shadow
child and the sunny child andit was actually a workbook and
it works and that was reallyamazingly helpful in this phase.
So, confronting myself with myinner beliefs, the negative
(17:20):
beliefs, really I'm not worthy.
I'm only worthy if I perform, orI'm only lovable if I do
certain things influenced fromparents and from other people,
especially during those crisisevents, they were like a how do
you call this in English?
A Damocles sort like a sortalmost like a curse over my life
(17:44):
, my wrong beliefs, and Isuffered under those those wrong
beliefs going through my mindWell, I'm not a person who gets
depressed necessarily, but likedowncast, my soul is downcast
more like this and I needed toget rid of those.
(18:05):
I've really felt like this isnot from God, but they have
manifested themselves sostrongly in my mind.
And yeah, and then I workedwith this book, reflecting on
myself, and then I ended withthe sunny child, so like what
does the Bible say?
Well, the book wasn't Christianbut I applied it then what does
the Bible say about me and whatdo I want to believe about me?
(18:29):
And yeah, and so slowly worked.
I think I used this book forabout six months, really
reflecting and working on myself.
Valerie Ling (18:39):
Harry, couldn't we fast forward that process?
If we, just if we read theBible and read those truths, his
grace is sufficient for me.
Couldn't we fast forward that?
Why do we need to go throughall of that reflection and inner
work?
Why not just read the Bible andarrive at those conclusions?
Harry Hoffman (19:00):
Believe and everything is great.
What does it say?
I think it's Romans fiveSuffering leads to perseverance,
endurance, endurance leads tocharacter development, character
development leads to hope, andit's a process and you look
through many of the biographiesin the Bible, like the story of
(19:21):
Joseph and the Old Testament,you have all the process.
You have high vision, high hopeand, yeah, the reality is not
really a faith and everythingwill be great.
The reality is that, well, lifeand God allows that as well
leads us through challengingtimes and actually in our
(19:46):
counseling training in China, wechose people Like we had only a
limited number of spots andthen we chose people who went
through their life crisisalready.
I sort of believe that everybodygoes through crisis in their
lives and then a good counseloris someone who is aware of their
(20:09):
life crisis and has, to acertain extent, worked through
that.
So don't feel like I'm a poorvictim and everybody is bad and
I'm good, but sort of has grownthrough that to a certain extent
.
And that was part of ourinterview, of interviewing
candidates for our counselingtraining, and it worked out
(20:31):
really well because they hadsomething to talk about and
there was a level ofauthenticity and transparency
about their inner life.
Yeah, and that was very helpful.
So you can't fast forward toanswer your question.
Valerie Ling (20:45):
I was once asked at a conference, Harry, if I
could teach self-awareness in 30minutes.
Harry Hoffman (20:53):
Okay.
Valerie Ling (20:55):
I haven't found the solution to that.
Harry Hoffman (20:58):
I did that once with sort of sculpturing and
that was also in China.
I asked people to make a facelike a physical expression of
joy and that was actuallyhelpful in them being self-aware
and interpersonally paired themup, and there was one person
(21:21):
did the self-expression of joywith their body and face and the
other one had to copy that andcomment on that and obviously
then the other emotions sadness,fear, anger, and as people
express that physically with atense body posture yeah, you get
(21:41):
a good feel of, or they get agood feel of, self-awareness and
how that applies to their life.
Valerie Ling (21:49):
I think it's interesting that you talked
about actually getting people toexperience emotion.
In Australia, in our clientgroup with pastors Passes very
often aren't aware of theiremotions, nor can they describe
it.
In fact, I would say that wewould see a kind of a suspicion
about bringing emotion intomaking sense of our decisions or
(22:15):
what we're doing.
I'm curious, being part ofglobal member care and being a
part of the global mission scenewhen it comes to Christian
leadership, I mean, what aresome of the challenges that
you're seeing for leaders inministry with regards to stress
or burnout or conflict?
(22:35):
What are you seeing happening?
Harry Hoffman (22:41):
Well, I'm part of the global mission community
and that, again, is quite uniqueand different to people who are
stationed in one location.
The mobility of that communityis pretty high.
People move to differentcountries, different contexts,
cultures, languages.
(23:02):
Some do that as singles and youhave that also in your research
the differentiation betweensingles and couples and families
.
It was just that a birthdayparty of a 40 year old woman who
is a missionary and a singlewoman 40, very different
(23:27):
processes there in a foreignnation than a family, for
example.
So you have singleness,families moving.
You have issues of kids, kidseducation, language, cultural
identity.
The kids change their identity.
I have three daughters they aremarried to.
(23:51):
Like three daughters fromGermany are married to an
American, a guy from Zimbabweand a guy from the Netherlands.
So none of them gets married toa German.
So these are the consequencesand therefore also the stressors
.
People are aware of the changesand the consequences of an
(24:14):
international lifestyle.
That adds to the stressors,which are different than an
add-on to the normal stressorsof an occupation, really.
So the stressors areeducational needs, interpersonal
needs, interpersonal challenges, conflicts, cross-cultural
(24:37):
challenges.
And you mentioned emotionsworking in different cultures
you have very different kinds ofthe disclosing of emotions.
Some are really clearlyexpressed, like Argentine,
argentina they express this verydirectly, very clearly Germans
(24:59):
as well.
While a Thailand culture is,there is always the smile and
you have to read behind thesmile to figure out what the
emotion there is, if you chooseto do that or if there is a need
to do that.
So yeah, so this is quitechallenging.
Valerie Ling (25:46):
So you have a course or you've put out some
material on leadership.
So how do you?
What are the broad principlesthen that someone in mission can
apply in leadership, with allof those differences?
Harry Hoffman (26:02):
The course on leadership is, first of all, a
series of different inputs.
I discovered that people losetheir calling when they it's a
bit like the Joseph story in theOld Testament, like the dreamer
goes out and then realizes heends up in Potiphar's house
(26:25):
Potiphar's house as a slave andserving somebody else not his
own vision, not God, but workingas a slave.
Then he ends up in prison andonly in the end of his life he
actually sees his calling beingrealized, his dreams being
realized.
And part one of this leadershipcourse is how do you actually
(26:49):
Like it's called focused leader?
How do you actually stay oncourse?
How do you like write this down?
What are the elements of yourlife that help you to stay on
track?
Or we call this true north, orstay like your compass is set,
because most of thecross-cultural workers
(27:10):
missionaries.
They start this with a veryclear word from God prayer, high
motivation.
God told me to reach a certainpeople group or to serve the
orphans in, I don't know, inEthiopia or somewhere.
And then they go there andafter two or three years they
(27:31):
lose their high stress.
The effects of the high stressis they lose their calling, they
don't know why they are therethey lose their God relationship
and they feel disappointed byGod and, yeah, and losing faith,
etc.
So there are strains on thespiritual life and the first
(27:57):
course then is about how do youstay on track?
And then I realized there areothers who well, in
cross-cultural work, you easilyend up in leadership very
quickly.
People have no idea how to lead, especially a cross-cultural
team.
And staying in your own country, in your own context.
(28:19):
Maybe you see examples here andthere where you can find
orientation, people who are astep ahead of you.
But in cross-cultural ministry,well, I have a 25-year-old
leading a team of 10 people,different ages, different
nationalities.
They don't know what they aredoing, and so this course, then,
(28:40):
will help people on how to lead.
Like small group leadership,these guys then have books by
Steve Jobs in their shelf or theAmazon Jeff Bezos.
That's not helpful.
That's like a multinationalcooperation with 50,000 staff.
(29:00):
It doesn't help a person wholeads a group of 10
international, intergenerationalpeople.
So, well, it's a different styleof leadership.
Well, what we learned throughthe Apple person is Steve Jobs
(29:22):
is more a visionary, is more theinnovative, the confrontative
leadership style, veryprofessional stage performance
and very convinced.
He's also a marketing guy,steve Jobs, so very convinced
about his products and a very,very good communicator In
cross-cultural teams of 10people.
(29:44):
You need to.
Many cultures are high-contextcultures, which means you need
relationships.
Well, as a leader, you don'tstand on stage and market your
product.
As a leader, you have meals.
You share about your life story, you share about even emotions
(30:05):
to a culturally appropriateextent.
You introduce your family, yougo on an outing, you go to
church together and then youwork together.
So, as a German, I'mlow-context.
I don't need that.
I work first and then, if wehave time, we go for a meal.
(30:26):
Most cultures around the worldare high-context.
They first need the meal, then,during the meal, they decide if
they want to work with you ornot.
So very different approaches.
If you're a new leader to ateam, you also need to balance
between generations.
You have high generations andnations If you work with a
(30:52):
50-year-old Korean and you are a20-year-old German leader it
has to be a certain honor andrespect towards the 50-year-old
Korean.
You need to be aware of how thatworks.
How do you get the 50-year-oldKorean to do what you want him
to do?
Many challenges are verydiverse.
(31:16):
Then you have servantleadership, biblical leadership
models.
How much do you serve?
How much do you actually givedirection?
It's a challenge that createsstress and frustration and anger
.
How do you express anger in across-cultural team?
What is good anger?
(31:37):
What is bad anger?
Valerie Ling (31:41):
A lot of what you said can apply to a typical
church in Sydney.
First of all, even theAustralian research on pastors
would say that the call inconviction language is.
We don't all agree on that, butcertainly a sense of a
conviction to serve the Lord isso important.
(32:04):
Without that, and if yourspiritual life is impacted as a
minister, that's the number onething that's probably going to
bring you down Profoundspiritual discouragement and
feeling lost in the wilderness.
Secondly, I think what you weresaying about it being
intergenerational as well ascross-cultural Sydney has now
(32:26):
become very cross-cultural.
I think we don't reallyunderstand the different
generations either in ourchurches.
I think everything that you'vejust said is very interesting,
because I myself have thisquestion for myself, in that, as
a leader of psychologists, whoare mainly women, I can't do
(32:52):
Steve Jobs.
I think they'll all leave.
You can't be high-tech, you'vegot to be high-touch, and so I
myself, in my own context,really understand that I've got
to lead in a different way fromwhat I read in the books, and
(33:12):
there's a lot of books that youcan read about that.
Harry Hoffman (33:18):
In addition to that I mean there are so many
levels here the spiritualdevelopment of people, like they
lose faith, and I have thissort of model of five stages of
spiritual development, thewarrior style Some people are in
that and they operate in that.
Everything is spiritual war,spiritual mapping.
(33:38):
We have to fight the enemy weare, and there is the God
described in scripture as wellas the Lord of the war, Like he
is leading the army.
And then you have to adjust asa leader and also as a team
member.
You have to adjust to memberswho are focused or primarily
(33:59):
operate in this kind of mindset.
Then you have the right andwrong people, the sin and well
truth, kind of dichotomy, or thedualistic sort of thinking
where we'll just do the rightthings right and leave the wrong
(34:19):
things, and then God will blessyou.
Then you have the running therace and finish the race first.
Then you get the reward, thepoor line, theology, people who
are always optimizing themselves, always improving what else to
have.
Then you have the counselor,the father of God, kind of
people who are oh, let's allcounsel each other and let's
(34:40):
look into the emotions for that.
For some they don't know youmentioned that before.
They don't know how to do that,they don't even want to do that
, they refuse to do that.
Why should I look into myemotions?
Let's just get on with the work.
But many like this, the touchykind of the community, the
(35:03):
consensus seeking.
There's also a leadershipapplication there, where you
don't lead by decision makingbut by consensus and not just
democratic, where you have 51%.
Some international teams, theleadership team they have to
have 100%, Otherwise they don'tdo it in that decision making.
(35:26):
Then you have the.
I think the last one is sort ofthe networking people who
operate on a global scale andthey look for other resources.
So the lead by the Holy Spiritmaybe that's a good description.
(35:46):
Or the Gospel of John talksabout he's in me and I'm in him
as he is in us.
I can't quote that right now,but as the father is in me,
Jesus says I am in you and youare in the father.
I think something like this.
So there is a networking kindof yeah, and so what I'm saying
(36:09):
is that people so you havegenerations, then you have
economical background or societysegment backgrounds, the
educational backgrounds, youhave gender and you have
spiritual phases.
People are in and operating incultures, languages and
(36:31):
cross-cultural work.
Maybe it's in Sydney the sameway.
You have different languages aswell, and people can't
communicate with each other.
Valerie Ling (36:38):
So how do we fix this?
This sounds awfully complicated.
How does one actually,therefore, develop to lead in
such a complicated setting?
Harry Hoffman (36:49):
Well, that's a good question.
You don't need to get marriedto all of them.
So project related is really.
Yeah, have some tasks, definetasks and work on those tasks
together and have conversations.
(37:11):
How do we do this?
What do people actually need tofeel part of the team to
accomplish these tasks?
It's challenging, but it's nota marriage.
It's a ministry team usuallyand they have to learn how to
work together, how to ministertogether in all of these areas.
Valerie Ling (37:35):
I'd love to understand and hear your
thoughts about burnout inministry.
Do you think it's a thing?
Does it exist?
Harry Hoffman (37:45):
Well, we have to define burnout first.
Burnout the term is really,it's the end of the engine.
The engine explodes and the cardoesn't move anymore.
So there is a stress, there isa traffic light, there is a
green stress, there is a yellowstress and a red stress, and it
(38:06):
goes both ways.
People work too much, but alsopeople working too little or
being challenged in their livestoo little.
You have that in cross-culturalministry too like a 40-year-old
manager ends up back home, endsup as a language student in
(38:28):
China, feels underwhelmed, under, challenged, under what do I do
with my life?
So that's high stress, and thenthey burn out.
I had a guy whose wife wasreally Leha, really strong and
active, and he felt like I'm inthe shadow of my wife and I have
(38:50):
nothing to do, I have nothingto show off.
I feel underwhelmed.
So they move then into thenegative stress, so to speak.
That can also lead to burnout.
If your car stands in thegarage too long, it doesn't
start anymore either.
(39:11):
So you have those elements.
And then you have the highperformance, high stress.
Where the battery is has.
No, you always need enoughbattery for crisis cause in
cross-cultural ministry, youwill always have crisis.
Your visa doesn't come through,there's a sickness, you need a
doctor that is not available, etcetera, et cetera.
(39:34):
You always need buffer, kind ofreserves, and so the term
burnout then means if we use thephone, then the phone dies,
then there is no more connection.
So if your phone goes into red,you gotta do something about it
.
That's definitely a problem.
(39:54):
How to prevent that is probablythe question.
Oof there are well, there aredifferent responsibilities there
.
There's an individualresponsibility.
There is a peer responsibilityand also, within organizations,
a leadership responsibility thatleaders, if you're part of a
(40:17):
organizational structure, shoulddo an assessment ever so often,
maybe once a year.
They can do this in-house orhire somebody like you to do
that with them.
There are good assessments outthere that gauge the.
It's like your blood work, likeI do my.
(40:37):
I check my blood work once ayear and then I can compare this
to the last years.
So you do the same test everyyear.
You sort of see where you areat in your stress level and you
differentiate different areas oflife personal, occupational,
psychological, trauma, I don'tknow peer, family, marriage, et
(41:00):
cetera, different areas and thenyou can gauge that a bit.
Valerie Ling (41:05):
What's the peer responsibility, harry?
So you said the individual, andI think I can understand that.
That's you working on your carepractices and making sure that
you've got energy in your tank.
And then you talked about theorganizational responsibility.
But what's the peerresponsibility?
What's that?
Harry Hoffman (41:23):
I think the Bible talks 50 times or 100 times
about the one and others.
So the Bible is really peerfocused serve one another, care
for one another, challenge oneanother, love one another, carry
one another's burdens.
So if you see me stressed, thenif you see your brother and
(41:44):
sister stressed, you've got todo something about this.
Just making them work harderand more is missing.
The point is actually missingscripture.
So to carry one another'sburdens, if I see someone cry, I
need to be the Emmanuel.
(42:05):
God is with us for them, notjust trust God, that God will be
there, but also be the Emmanuelin flesh and blood for that
person.
So there is a peerresponsibility that we need to
learn in the body of Christ andmission in the church, et cetera
, where it's not always what yousee is what you get, like I
(42:28):
look happy but you have no ideahow I am doing inside.
So, but as peer, as friends,friends and family, small groups
in church, it's not just aboutspiritual growth and gaining
knowledge.
It's about carrying oneanother's burdens to fulfill the
(42:49):
law of Christ, and that's so,so key to learn that.
And we learn that by learninghow to connect, learning how to
talk about emotions, learninghow to listen to each other and
summarizing what we're hearing.
Valerie Ling (43:07):
I often find that when I'm interacting with
Christian community that therecan be a suspicion to that
process of supporting oneanother.
It's almost like then we'rejust becoming lazy, whinging,
complaining people, so it's bestthat we just get on with it.
(43:27):
Toughen up.
After all, Hudson Taylor, BillyGraham did you ever hear them
whinge?
Well, I don't know, maybe theydid.
To know, that tends to be thekind of, sometimes, I think,
what we think when we hear ourpeople in ministry say we're
(43:48):
struggling.
Harry Hoffman (43:51):
Yeah, like let's not put them in cotton wool.
Cotton wool is the word.
Yeah, put them in cotton wool.
Yeah, you have Hudson Taylor,who had problems if you read the
biographies well, and WilliamCarey.
Anyway, His wife was psychosisor was depressed or something
and he's the hero of modernmissions, but his personal life
(44:15):
was really challenged and Ithink there was a biography
about his wife that came outrecently by William Carey
Library to also highlight thatpart.
So it's so important tohighlight.
There was another book, I think, Open Doors.
I forgot the author who wroteabout the stories untold.
(44:41):
I think it's called the stories.
These are the stories, not thehero stories, but people who
were part of the hero story butwho suffered under these hero
stories, and those stories needto be told.
Like a Chinese pastor's wife,husband went to prison, was
pronounced dead in prison andshe survived like she wasn't put
(45:04):
in prison and she grieved for afew years, then got remarried
and then one day she presumedher husband was dead but he
actually wasn't dead.
10 years later he showed up ather door and she was buried
again and there was so muchshame and guilt that she killed
(45:26):
herself.
So stories untold yeah, theseare real stories we have to face
.
There's nothing.
I mean you can't do this toomuch to be, but I don't think
missionaries have that problem.
They are full of vision,usually an energy that they want
(45:47):
to.
They go out to achievesomething.
And a bit of support doesn'thelp.
A bit of one another doesn'tnot, doesn't help.
A bit of support doesn't harm.
A bit of one another doesn'tharm.
In the contrary, it actuallyhelps people to stay healthy.
Valerie Ling (46:08):
One of the things that Josh and I really enjoyed
about your time with us in theconference that we met you was
your model of conflict.
I don't have the visual here,but it was this, this analysis,
if you like, of levels ofconflict, and in the research
(46:31):
that I conducted it was sad tosee that the levels of conflict
experienced by our pastors atthe level of, you know, physical
, sexual assault, gossip andslander, feeling bullied,
filling tears.
You know really personal,personal levels of conflict and
(46:55):
I get the impression when I'mout and about in you know,
church dumb, that we just thinkthat conflict is conflict.
You know there'll always beconflict in church, that's
normal, right, and that's all.
That should not lead to thingslike trauma.
What's you know what's the bigdeal?
What are your thoughts on that,harry?
Harry Hoffman (47:16):
Yes, we usually, when we talk about conflict in
the church, we talk about this,matthew 15 or so go to the
person yourself.
Then, like, if somebody hassinned against you, it says then
go to the person.
If that person doesn't listen,take someone.
And if that person stilldoesn't listen, then take him to
the eldership, something likethis.
(47:36):
And I feel like conflict ismuch more complex and
progressive, graduallyprogressive.
Then it's not sinning against me.
It starts with tension.
Yeah, maybe a smalldisagreement and tension, and
you swallow it down.
Yeah, I can do this.
And and maybe next time I slamthe door, you know, to just tell
(48:02):
you that, like non verbally,tell you that I actually
disagree with you, or I changemy face or so.
And these are like they're outthere.
The first there is a nine stepmodel.
The first three steps.
They say that you can actuallysolve this yourself through self
(48:23):
reflection.
And maybe, yeah, maybe, talk tothe person.
Hey, I misunderstood you, orwhat did you mean by saying that
I was part of a coalition,actually initiated a coalition
(48:47):
against another person who hadhis own coalition, and that was
sort of the middle, the three,the 456 levels of conflict.
This is when you publicly blamesomeone, you make the other
person lose face, you blame yeah, he's a bad person, he's not
(49:09):
trustworthy, and you don't thinkthat.
So you don't talk about that ina small group, you make that
public, and yeah.
And then the last three isreally when it's too late, when
it's called together into theabyss, when you, when you, when
you strike, destructive youroffenses against the other
(49:34):
person, you want to, you wantthis other person to leave, to
not be there anymore, and in theend is, even if it kills me, as
long as you are dead, that weare happy.
Sort of these, these kind ofthese kind of levels and yeah,
and, and each of these ninelevels can, can, can have a
(49:56):
different approach on how toconfront.
So it's not just forgiving andforgetting and pull the log out
of your eyes before you.
Yeah, it's much more difficult,much more diverse than what we
ensure.
We can use scriptures with allthose nine levels, but but we
(50:20):
don't usually use them.
We put them on into one box, asyou say, and then this should
fix.
It doesn't work that way.
How does the church level impactmissions?
Well, overall, there is a lossof trust in leadership.
Definitely.
There's a reality check thathigh level.
(50:43):
Leaders are not the superman,super women of this, but we want
to make them to that.
We people need heroes.
We have the Marvel movies.
People need heroes and theymake pastors and Christian
leaders to heroes.
They stand in public and theygive orientation to many who
(51:08):
feel like they are less thanthose heroes, public people and
if they fall, the consequencesof that fall is not just on a on
a local level.
I mean the news that hit your,your news stations, also hit the
international news stations andhas a consequence, so they
(51:31):
people fall off the pedestal, soto speak.
Valerie Ling (51:35):
So, harry, the last word from you.
If there is a pastor who'slistening to us and they are
discouraged, hurt and wounded inthe battle, what would you want
to say to them?
Harry Hoffman (51:50):
I've talked to someone.
Find someone.
Talk to someone.
The first person you talk tomight not give you the right
feel.
Find someone else.
Choose 10 people you want totalk to and and be intentional
about opening up and, as you dothis, learn what you actually
(52:12):
need.
Maybe, as I say, maybe thefirst person you talk to gives
you the wrong answers orsomething you don't want to hear
.
Learn from that, try again andthen tell the next person I
don't want to hear this, give meanother answer.
And so teach your your opposite, what you kind of need from
(52:34):
them.
And by the 10th person you willadd 100%.
Sure, you have 10 people youtalk to.
One person out of that, 10 givesyou what you actually need
level of empathy, understanding,level of yeah, of connection
that you need to feel relaxed toshare about your life.
And then the one another's canhelp.
(52:55):
Doesn't need to be apsychologist or counselor, can
just be a friend, maybe spouse,someone where.
But we got to talk about ourstuffs.
We got to find space to unloadsome of our burdens, not just
talk about football and the lastholiday and the weather, but
(53:16):
actually go deeper in our heartshow, how life has changed us,
how, how circumstances havechanged our image of God, our
calling, our sense of identity,our sense of love.
Also, many don't feel lovedanymore, etc.
So that's find someone.
(53:37):
Find someone that's really soimportant.
Valerie Ling (53:41):
Oh, harry, thank you so much.
I mean right there, I think wasan ebook.
We've got lots of really richresources and links.
So I'll be sure that when thisactually heads out into the,
(54:04):
into the world, we put yourlinks in there.
But thanks so much for spendingtime with me, harry.
Harry Hoffman (54:11):
Thank you for having me Real pleasure.
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