Leadership through the Lens of Indigenous Values with Jay Matenga

As our season draws to a close, I began to contemplate leadership in a wider context, beyond just Australia and parish settings, I was drawn to explore international issues of leadership in gospel work.

Jay Matenga, is Director of the Global Witness Dept. and the Mission Commission for the World Evangelical Alliance and Executive Officer for Missions Interlink NZ.

Jay Matenga, was raised with indigenous values in a predominantly Eurocentric society. Our conversation will explore Jay’s leadership  journey in the missions space, particularly Jay's approach as a narrative leader who underscores the importance of storytelling in spiritual connection and guidance. We look at the aspects of collective leadership, the importance of mentorship, and the adaptability ingrained in indigenous leadership styles.

Leaders today grapple with managing expectations and avoiding burnout, a challenge amplified in Christian leadership where echo chambers can be pervasive. We underscore the necessity of resilience, self-awareness, and the ability to identify when to step back. Jay offers insights into leadership accountability and the shift from performance metrics to a focus on values and overall well-being.

Join us to gain a deeper understanding of leadership, the role of missions, and the journey of self-authenticity amid diverse cultural landscapes.


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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Episode Transcript

Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.

(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Greetings everybody to anotherepisode of the clergy well-being
Down Under podcast.
I've got Jay Matanga with me.
Jay and I really meet oneanother once in a while in the

(00:47):
global mission member care space.
The first time I met Jay waswhen he was playing his guitar
and I had to accompany him onthe keyboard as we led the
singing for one of the sessions.
Good day, Jay.

Jay Matenga (01:03):
Nice, yeah, thanks.
Thanks for that invitation.
I forgot about that, was it theone in Melbourne.

Valerie Ling (01:09):
I can't remember where we were, but you know
there's maybe Kieran's, yeah.
Yeah, and I just remember youwere a one man band, jay.

Jay Matenga (01:18):
You had the guitar you had the lead Honestly yeah,
it's something I just love to dois sing, play guitar, lead
worship, particularly in thatspace.
So it wasn't difficult, it's aprivilege.

Valerie Ling (01:33):
And I'll get you to tell us a little bit more
about you.
But the thing that struck meabout you, jay, at that point in
time, was how open you were toactually seek feedback.
You know, because you and I wedidn't know one another and we
just had to rock up and playmusic together, but just how
open you were to you know, ask,get feedback, work through, you

(01:57):
know the different styles, thedifferent orientation, and then
just how open you were toactually just sing your heart
out for Jesus.
So I figure there must besomething that goes on
underneath you, jay.
So I've looked at your websiteand you are involved in lots.

(02:18):
So, jay, would you mindintroducing yourself and who you
are and some of the roles youhave, if that's okay?

Jay Matenga (02:26):
It would be my privilege.
That website isJayMartzTangocom a little bit of
self shameless self promotion.
I'm basically Ed Hard on theask her questions.
Many questions, too manyquestions.
But I come from a Maoribackground, an indigenous New
Zealand Maori background on myfather's side, on my mother's
side, of variation of English,welsh and even some Aboriginal

(02:54):
in there, from Melbourne inSouth Australia, according to
the family narrative.
But what struck me as I wasgrowing in my formative years
and particularly is coming toChrist as a 16 year old in 1984
you guys do the math and longtime ago was a sense of living

(03:14):
with a sense of dissonancebecause I was involved in a
thoroughly what I would call aEurocentric environment.
But I found myself thinkingquite differently than others.
My value set seemed to be atodds with the value set that I
was involved in Fully early inmy walk with the Lord.
I got involved in Pentecostalchurches, in the new Pentecostal

(03:36):
movements, set under a lot ofthe big names that are now
notorious in the headlines,unfortunately, but being trained
by this, and there was just adrive that I didn't have within
me for a certain way of being,and so so I sat uncomfortably in

(04:00):
that space for a while until Iwas able to figure it out, and
it took a few decades to come toterms with why that was, and so
that, all after back around tomy indigeneity, that's how I
express it Now.
I express it from a position ofbeing a person who very

(04:20):
viscerally and very deeply feelsa value set that I've since
identified as an indigenousvalue set of the more of a
collectivist peoples see life inthat way, and so everything I
do.
I mean there's a various waysyou could describe leadership,
but one of the things that thatworship leading actually taught

(04:43):
me was to be highlycollaborative.
I know that some, some musicteams, some bands, have a very
strong music director and theymy latest church I've joined the
worship team and they wasconstricted to a click track and
into backing tracks.
You know, now you can, you canpull up and down the instruments

(05:06):
you don't have in your band andthey play, but you have to be
constrained to the backgroundmusic.
Well, that feels very what Icall industrial to me and not at
all indigenous, and so me andthe someone basically, and the
Filipino drummer, used to getreally upset with this click
track because it had no life, no, no groove, no rhythm and so

(05:32):
whenever I come into a space ofleadership, I naturally fall
back on the collective.
Yeah, and this, this reallysurprised me.
I've worked with many teamsbefore and I've been pretty much
put in that box of the las, afear leader, and in some have.
Some on my board have accusedme of being a reactive

(05:56):
leadership style.
I prefer to say it's aresponsive leadership style.
That's two very differentthings.
But rather than a lot of thefear I am, I tend to be a lot
more collaborative and, in aWestern style, thinking, if
you're familiar with oh, Iforget his name now one of the

(06:20):
business leaders very famous fortalking about this successful
organizations.
Anyway, he talks about gettingthe right people on the bus.

Valerie Ling (06:31):
Oh yes.

Jay Matenga (06:32):
And so I'm much more concerned about getting the
right people on the bus, thenpushing a particular agenda, and
even though I have a verystrong sense of direction or
where I think we should go, themanitiae of planning is just not
my forte.
And so when I came into a rolenow and the roles I have after

(06:53):
coming through involvement inmission, missionary recruiting,
what we call missionmobilization, trying to
encourage people to engage withGod's world in proactive ways,
particularly cross culturally sofor five years I was the
mission recruiter for workinternational in New Zealand.
For 15 years I was then thedirector of pioneers in New

(07:16):
Zealand so these are missionarydeploying organizations and then
in 2015 I transitioned frompioneers into missions, into,
like New Zealand, which is theAlliance or the Association of
Missions and outreachorganizations parachuted
organizations, if you will, inNew Zealand and in fact,
australia as well we're sisterorganizations and and then in

(07:41):
2020 I was invited and appointedto be the director of global
witness for the world ofAngelical Alliance, that's, the
Department of Global Witness,and within the department, since
the word of Angelical Alliance,mission commission.
So I kind of lead both of those.
The majority of my involvementis the mission commission, the

(08:03):
department, probably in keepingwith my lasso field, leadership,
the department is a moreattitular head of that, guiding
that.
And then the department sitsthe global evangelism network,
the mission commission and now,just recently, the International
Missionary Training Network,which spun off out of the
mission commission and we're inconversation with the global

(08:26):
media care network to become itsown entity under the WA,
outside of the missioncommission, because they're very
well established now.
So all of these groups and allof the networks I'm involved in
more or less they're full ofvery capable, competent people,
so they don't need to be led.

(08:48):
And very early in my, in myappointment to missions
intellect, I was at one of theregional gatherings and somebody
said to me why would you takeon a role like missions into,
like?
Surely isn't it like herdingcats?
In a way?
It can appear that way.
We have 19 member organizationsand they are.

(09:09):
They range from world visionall the way over to a little mom
and pop orphanage, supportingtype minute and supporting
indigenous ministry, soeverything in between.
And the Lord just reallyimpressed on me An image I don't
know if you recall this thisYouTube clip from a Super Bowl

(09:33):
advert where there are cowboyson the range and there's all
these cats going wild and thecowboys all scratched and and
it's an image of herding catsand so you can see it in your
head and just suppose the catsfor the cattle.
But it was as if the Lord justtook me up to the stratosphere

(09:53):
and look down at this chaos onthe ground of these cats and
these wranglers, like the CEOsof organizations trying to get
the cats.
And the chaos the higher up Igot.
The chaos became a choreographyand so it's like the Olympic.
You know dance sessions on theOlympic Stadium.

(10:15):
As the camera comes from thetop down, you start to see the
shapes merging.
That looks like chaos on theground.
Very strongly felt the Lord sayI don't need you to to to her
or control anything.
I need you to look and see whatI am doing and then articulate
back to my people what you seeand so that then from there,

(10:37):
that was early in my doctoralwork and I started to identify
myself as a narrative leader.
Okay so now my role, I see mychief role, whether it's worship
leading or global networkleading.
It's about how do we tell thestory, what is happening out
there in the worship set youhave, how do we take people on a

(11:01):
journey into that throne roomof God?
That is coherent with an act ofworship in this 20 minutes
space.
Similarly, global networks, orall a leader of a big network
can do is actually just tell andnarrate the story that
reinforces the culture, thatenables or strengthens the

(11:26):
forward movement to the visionyou want to, you think as a
group, as a collective, you wantto achieve.
And then I've since found thatis a very collectivist way of
leading very indigenous way ofleading a group leading.
So when I came to this role in2020 with my executive coach, I

(11:48):
recommend everybody getsupervision and coaching If
you're in any leadershipposition, because it's that
sounding board is an estimate.
It's fantastic.
So she says, well, what I waslooking to?
Recruit a team, and some wouldargue or call it, but just a
group of people, a community isthe way I was seeing it around

(12:11):
me, that was global.
Then we could walk togetherinto the future for the Mission
Commission.
And she says, well, what do youwant them to achieve?
And without thinking, I justresponded I don't care what we
achieve, so long as we gotogether and what, whatever we
do, will emerge out of thecollectors.
And when I did the fourth yearof my doctoral work and we

(12:35):
studied the leadershipapplications of our work, all of
the reading Well, in none ofthe reading I should say that I
was doing by one indigenousleadership book.
It's called Wayfinding by a NewZealander, shelly Spiller.
They all were talking aboutleading from the front, not from

(12:59):
the group, and so I wasperplexed in looking at there's
a potential gap there thathasn't been well developed.
But because of all theseleadership books were largely
industrial.
They were all based on a set ofvalues that I didn't.
I didn't align with and, infact, our whole cohort.

(13:20):
We had a Brit living inAustralia, an Australian, two
Papua New Guineans in myself andwe were all like why are we
reading these books, of all thebooks on leadership?
Almost really to spit the dummy.
But it was a great time of justtuning through and then we all

(13:44):
had this aha moment that, yeah,the way we've been articulating
leadership, the expectations ofleadership, the systems that
we're trying to lead For the oneof better word toxic.

Valerie Ling (13:59):
Ask you, Jay, just back to how would you define
supervision and executivecoaching?

Jay Matenga (14:06):
Well, it depends on , I think, your role.
Professional supervision wouldbe for those more humanitarian
people carers, I think, pastorsthe New Zealand Baptists have
just mandated professionalsupervision for all their
pastors, I think, in some waysto respond to some of your
research and psychologists,social workers, etc.

(14:31):
So I don't myself.
I'm not heavily involved inpeople.
Most of my realm is the realmof ideas and systems.
So I didn't see the need forprofessional supervision myself.
So I haven't done that.
I have a good friend that isdoing that, so I've learned from
her passion.

(14:52):
But executive coaching theexecutive coach I have is.
It is a reflective process thatI think is somewhat similar In
my case, where I'm going to herwith issues that I want to talk
through, with the experiencesthat I want to have another
perspective on, and then shewill ask me what I hope to

(15:14):
achieve going forward.
And this is where the coachingcomes in, where she'll help the
design steps towards achievingthis ultimate outcome and why.
I like mine particularly.
She's a South African with alot of background in Indigenous
Africa.
She just gets the value setthat I'm working with and the

(15:37):
aims I'm seeking to achieve, andso she understands that.
So, finding somebody compatiblewith where you're wanting to go
and what you're wanting to do.
I think it's important and Iprefer a much more proactive
person as a sounding board thena more client centered approach
where you just do all thetalking.

Valerie Ling (15:58):
Yeah.
So, joe, I'm with you on theindustrial format of when I did
my masters of leadership.
I have to say that that's oneof the things that really struck
me that the study of leadershipdoes come from the history of
what you're producing.
So you know, if you'reproducing cars, if you're trying
to get people to lead them tomake cars for quality, if you're

(16:20):
trying to get people to writethings for accuracy, there's a
particular outcome, and so theleadership style that you adopt
has got to do with what outcomeare you trying to get from the
people that you lead, right?
So how does that work inministry?
Are there outcomes?
Is there a framework that welook at that say, ok, well, this

(16:41):
is what we need from the peopleat the end, and so, therefore,
this is the type of leadershipthat is required.

Jay Matenga (16:49):
I prefer to see leadership as influence,
influencing a group of peopletoward a common good.
So there's a definition, if youwill, so particularly in
ministry.
So in industry, your commongood is productivity.
It is whatever you're seekingto increasing your profit, your
viability of your organization,etc.
In ministry, you have to definethe common good with your

(17:14):
people, so there's a communalaspect to it.
One of the issues, I think, isthat sometimes our common goods
clash.
So a pastor comes into a churchwith an idea of the common good
for everybody tries to drivethem in that direction, and this
is particularly bad in bettercircles or congregational

(17:34):
circles.
You can get away with it in themore authoritarian, more
authoritative one man bandPentecostal city, where there's
a very much that don't touch thelaws anointed.
They know where we go and we'reall and we stay in the
congregation because we like tobe lead in the direction that

(17:55):
they are going.
We were like, likes to belongto whatever it is that they're
seeking to build.
But in a more congregationalsetting you get a power base.
There's not the senior leader,it is the board of elders, it is
, it is people who have taken onpositions of power within the
congregation and that can becomeproblematic when their idea of

(18:18):
good clashes with the leadersidea of good.
So you got dissonance intentionthere.
So in ministry you need to toreconcile what is the good we're
seeking to achieve I said,thankfully, 3,000 feet above
most of the fray and what I'mdoing in thinking systems, the
big systems and global networks,etc.

(18:40):
But ultimately we have to comedown to this base of.
In my view, I think we've lostin this pathology of common good
that is compelling enough tohold us together as the people
of God and whatever communitieswe've formed, and part of the
problem we have is that we'veinstitutionalized those

(19:04):
communities too much such thatthey become industrial.
So you've got a certain set ofproductivity outcomes you're
having to achieve bums on seats,tithes coming in to keep the
lights on all of.
You've got a production youhave to try to maintain.
Within this, overall what Icall the industrial hegemony, I

(19:31):
see the only two types of peoplein the world.
For me there is indigenous andindustrial.
There's the western slash,individualistic, which I put in
the industrial value set, andthe indigenous, collectivist
group, oriented.
That I call indigenous.
But it's more than just peopleof the land for me, but it's a
value set there and there's somevery clear assumptions and both

(19:55):
of those big groups that weseeing them clash right now in
Australia, you seeing them clashIn New Zealand, we've set with
the clash for a long, not longer, and we keep coming around with
these value sets are clashing.
Well, in scripture we see a verycollectivist assumption of

(20:17):
value set, assumption that hasbeen reinterpreted into the
industrial, individualist valueset, and I think we in doing
that it's brought out many goodthings, but it's also obscured a
lot of stuff that we need torecover.
And so in ministry I keepfalling back to reminding people

(20:40):
even though I'm not good at itmyself necessarily but it's all
has to be about the people, ithas to be about the, the
community and our habitats.
So I'll add creation care inthere as well.
It has to be all about actuallynot the people, relationships
with the people, with ourhabitats, and the common good

(21:04):
needs to flow out of that,what's a very important vision.
How are we nurturing a group ofpeople toward that vision
within the uniqueness of thiscommunity and the value sets
that have emerged from withinthe community?
So that's as much applicable toa mission agency or a micro

(21:24):
missions group in a particularcontext as it is to a local
church or even a denomination.
You belong to theseorganizations in terms of groups
of people that are organizedNot necessarily
institutionalized, but organizedand those that organization,
that group, starts to form itsown set of its own culture.

(21:48):
So, instead of values based on,maybe, beliefs that are common
across Christianity but there'sa unique grace in that group I
like to see that God is workingwith that group for this purpose
.
And you know we easily knockthe grace that others focus on,
like Hillsong's a big one at themoment is easily not, but God

(22:11):
has given them a particulargrace to develop and to lead in
worship, provide pathways forpeople to connect with God, and
the fact that people are and docan't be denied in spite of all
the institutional stuff.
So I think we need to be a lotmore honoring of the grace.
So it's a leader of anyministry.

(22:33):
I think it becomes problematicif you're feeling undue pressure
to perform in order to producea certain outcome, because the
Spirit of God doesn't always.
Sometimes I love it when a plancomes together, but more often

(22:53):
than not it doesn't.
So how do we lean in to therhythms of the Spirit?
How do we learn to lead from,as Peterson says, the rhythms of
grace, the unforeseen rhythmsof grace.
And in your research I see a lotof forcedness, a lot of
dissonance, creating tensionsthat are difficult to resolve

(23:14):
because we haven't providedeither an eschatology, a
framework of maturity that seestrauma.
I mean, that's what a lot ofthis is resulting from.
Trauma is an opportunity to beprocessed well, to grow in the
leader and in the congregation.

Valerie Ling (23:34):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
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research and reflections, andyou might also want to remember
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So stop now or keep going.

(23:56):
James, how do we sustain thenarrative approach?
You know, if you have a groupof you know you're pushing past
200, past 400.
How does that work in your view?
You know you're saying there'sthe individualistic and then the
industrial and the indigenous.

(24:16):
How does it work within anindigenous context when you're
scaling in the size of the group?

Jay Matenga (24:24):
Indigenous wouldn't scale.

Valerie Ling (24:26):
Hmm, interesting.

Jay Matenga (24:28):
Because it's.
I mean we would scale in on anevent type manner.
So I mean you get them together.
I mean it's, and any event isvery ad hoc.
There are hierarchies that arehonored and seen and honored and
recognized, so in place.
But beyond that, the this chiefaim of such a large gathering

(24:54):
of micro groups.
So in a Maori concept, you haveyour hapu, your family group,
which can consist of your justimmediate extended family, but
usually of a cluster of extendedfamilies.
So you have your hapu and thenmultiple hapu would make up an

(25:14):
iwi, which is a much largertribal group or clan, and then
you go up from there.
So whenever people came togethersay for instance, on the Treaty
of Waitangi in 1840, the chiefscame not to speak on their own,
they were representing a lot ofdiscussion.
That has happened in the groupsin the micro level coming up,

(25:39):
and so there's that.
And then if multiple groupscome together, it's very much
more a celebratory thing than itis an agenda driven thing.
So it's about makingrelationships.
You talk to anybody about afuneral and the chief aim of the
funeral is not actually to burythe person that's past, is to

(25:59):
use that person's narrative toreinforce the narrative of us.
I am because we are the wholeUbuntu South Africans.
Bantu idea or value set is verycommon across Indigenous
peoples and so it wouldn't be aregular occurrence to come

(26:20):
together in larger groups.
So those larger groups wouldn'tneed to be led in a routine
institutional style.
That need to be guided andthere's a lot of assumption that
is common.
When people get together, A lotof talking goes on, but when it

(26:40):
comes to a coherent narrativenow I'm using the word coherent
deliberately rather thancohesive so in an industrial
thing they want everybody to beon topic, on, on task, and the
idea of team is a very deeplyentrenched assumption in an

(27:01):
industrial world, whereas familyis the more assumption in an
Indigenous world.
So when you got team, you'vegot everybody working towards a
common goal.
And it's not to say theIndigenous don't do that, it's
just the common goal is muchfurther ahead.
It's like seven generationsahead.

(27:22):
It's not the immediateproductivity is how are we
building a better world for theseventh generation of our
children's, children's children?
So there's that sense and team,everybody has their task and
you know we're all workingtogether towards that common
goal.
And there's often an enemy andyou need an enemy in order to.

(27:45):
We're an opposing team and sowe get a lot of this enemy talk
quite prevalent and there is forIndigenous is a lot more about
harmony and relationship and soit's more about okay, where do
we want to go, what do we wantto do?
And there are stronger voicesthan others and they will be

(28:07):
recognized, but the group caneasily pull down a stronger
voice If it doesn't cohere withthe will of the people.
As the American would say, it'sa nice idea, but at a very
large level it's harder toachieve.

(28:27):
So we're cohesion is thateverybody needing to stick to
the same plan and strategy andwork together, etc.
Coherence is more about wheredoes everybody see themselves in
the narrative of us and ourstory and what our tribe is
going to be known for.

(28:48):
And that's became very deeplywhat one of the massive Baham
movements was.
Moments for me was meeting mybiological father when I was 42
for the first time, all of thisturning in Indigenous values in
me.
I couldn't explain, couldn'tdefend, and I let my father,

(29:10):
whose father was full Maori andmy father was a Mormon bishop.
By that stage he had plantedMormon churches but not grown up
in that whole spiritualenvironment.
His grandfather, my greatgrandfather, was a spiritual
leader, a Tuhunga Maori priestor shaman, who had manipulated

(29:35):
the spirits in less thanhonorable ways at times, but I
was able then to articulate mystory in Jesus that actually had
a connection with my ancestors,stories that was finally
redeemed.
This is my narrative.
And it makes sense.
So a narrative leader is aleader that makes sense to the

(29:59):
group that are being appointedto lead, and we actually see
this done very well at amegatrush level.
They're forever reinforcing thevalues and the identity of the
church.
They're forever making surepeople know who they belong to,
know what they're a part of andfor all the negative stuff that

(30:20):
can go on with with scale,they've learned to do that very
well and that attracts people.
It helps them that they developtheir own liturgies, their own
protocols, their own identity,their own value sets very
clearly value driven, their ownsense of mission.
Where are we going?
So it's not so different.

(30:43):
And so these big CEOs, whilethey might be driving and
productivity oriented andcreating more and more stress
for themselves, they are verygood narrators in terms of who
are we and therefore, how do youfit in this scheme of things.

Valerie Ling (31:09):
And so, jay, you were saying that you use the
term laissez-faire leadershipwhich, as I know and I don't
know if you're using it the sameway, but as I've now studied
that actually means something inthe theory base of leadership.
It's not always looked uponwell, it probably isn't looked

(31:31):
upon well.
Do you embrace that or do yousay that it's not laissez-faire
leadership, it's organic?
I think you said it.
It's responding to the storythat's emerging.

Jay Matenga (31:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's the absenteeleader model that is criticized
for the laissez-faire.
It's just somebody's driftingalong, but that's problematic if
the leader's not really castinga vision or communicating.
And I say this even as I'mconvicted.

(32:07):
I mean we had a big globalconference, global consultation,
in January.
I still haven't communicated tomy network the outcomes of that
.
I'm working on that now.
What I was February was sixmonths later almost, and there's
been this block of silence, andso I've got emails from people
oh, what's the latest?

(32:29):
We haven't heard anything, etcetera.
And so there's pressure comingin that way as I've been
juggling too many balls.
So there's that, yeah, okay,we're being stretched too far,
so the leader's not doinganything, and just there's no
productivity.
I mean, one of the things thatI can't be accused of is lack of

(32:52):
productivity, because I'mwriting, publishing, producing
magazines, doing other thingsthat my board is very happy with
.
But, it's not necessarilycommunicating with the wide,
much wider network, so it canappear to be much more absentee.
So I sit with that tension.

(33:14):
But if a board finds a leaderthat isn't acting on the board's
recommendations, that theexpectations aren't being met by
the church teacher, that can beproblematic and needs to be
sorted out.
But those expectations, that isa key issue in IC and all of

(33:38):
the responses you got.
I would nail it to.
Apart from the fact that it's asystem, that systemic issue, is
this expectation issue thatcreates the biggest conflicts
and tensions, and to live withthose expectations and not know
how to negotiate or renegotiateexpectations can be a deep cause

(34:04):
of burnout.
I love the quote fromAlcoholics Anonymous that
expectations are premeditatedresentments.

Valerie Ling (34:13):
Interesting.

Jay Matenga (34:14):
So the narrative leader needs to continually come
back and acknowledgeexpectations and reform it and
create and craft theexpectations for themselves so
that they can sit in thoseunforced rhythms and they're not
being forced by others to leadit according to a pace or
productivity expectation thatthey can't actually perform.

Valerie Ling (34:40):
Well, it's closely related to how we then define
effectiveness.
So your expectations ofyourself and what others expect
of you also comes from what wewould assume effectiveness is.
What does that mean?
That you're churning outstellar sermons that other
churches are streaming for theirpastors to learn from?

(35:01):
Is it that you're able toretain newcomers beyond the
three weeks?
Is that effectiveness?
What are your thoughts on that?

Jay Matenga (35:14):
Again, that's the point of negotiation, and if we
were to follow the line ofpositive psychology you want, I
think Marcus Buckingham says youwant your leaders to be working
in their best strengths atleast 20% of their time.
I've been very fortunate tohave found roles where I've been
able to craft the CEO roleaccording to my best

(35:39):
competencies, and thosecompetencies have been wanted by
boards and organizations withinthe capacity that that
organization has had financialand the resources they've had.
So in missions you have to do alot with a little, and so, on

(36:00):
the one hand, one of the biggestcriticisms I got running this
global consultation almostsingle-handedly, which probably
says a lot about my leadershipstyle as well but we hadn't
quite formed a coherent teamenough yet to delegate roles,

(36:21):
administrative roles, and Idon't have an administrator, so
I was default administratingthis whole thing, and the
biggest criticism was that Iwasn't, I was doing too much.
I was up there, I was playingguitar at the beginning, leading
communion.
I was down in the sound deskdoing the PowerPoints and at

(36:41):
times when we the hotel couldn'tprovide the sound operator, I
was working the sound desk.
I was introducing people, I wasmaking sure the technology was
in the work, the breakout grouprooms, et cetera.
Because in my context in NewZealand, that's just what you
have to do.
You just you're a kind of a oneman band.
You don't have the resources tohire staff to do things.

(37:04):
And so people, some of ourcolleagues, older colleagues
from the big country to thenortheast of us, north America,
they were saying, well, thebiggest criticisms we have is
that you weren't acting like anexecutive director and you
weren't passing these roles onto people, et cetera.

(37:25):
And for Kiwi, probably at OZ aswell, you know that was like a
compliment, not a criticism.
It was like, oh yeah, you areone of the one of the crowd, one
of the grunts, not not thinkingof yourself higher than you
ought, tall poppy syndrome andall that.
But then I have a I alwaysremember a US colleague who came

(37:48):
out of a big US office, wentinto Singapore to run a very
small micro office and he wasjust a gas that he had to
collect the mail himself.
So there were these just bigdifferences of expectations and
they can be a shock until youyou work them through and you
have to align yourself with canI meet these expectations as a

(38:12):
leader or not?
And if the resources simplyaren't needed to achieve what
you're expected to achieve.
If you need to either say, well, I can't do this and that's one
of the reasons why I leftPioneers in 2015 is because the
board would say we want to seethis achieved I said, well, you
know, with all the data I haveat hand and with the resources I

(38:35):
have, I can't do this, so youbetter find somebody who can or
is willing to.
And they said, okay, so youknow what choice do you have?
And to, okay, resign.
And that's a bold statement.
I think sometimes, as leaders,we leave it too long before we
come to that conclusion, and Ilove there's been some work done

(39:00):
on on failure and and giving up, and the healthiness of seeing
stuff is not of giving up, notas a failure, of giving up at
the right time in order to moveon and flourish and something
else, and so so that's it's kindof a narrative.

Valerie Ling (39:21):
It's kind of a narrative we say to ourselves
too.
It's, it's, it's the nextchapter, for yourself as well as
for the people that you'removing away from and moving
towards.
How about well-being andburnout?
Has this factor into yourthinking from as an, as a
narrative leader, from anindigenous perspective?
What?
What does that look like?

Jay Matenga (39:45):
I think it looks like one of the first things you
said it was loneliness was abig issue.

Valerie Ling (39:51):
Yeah, you must say that.

Jay Matenga (39:54):
I think the lack of community contributes a lot,
the lack of not necessarily a, a, a yes, you're the greatest
support of community, but acommunity you, you feel like you
belong to.
So one of the things this, theindustrial leadership style,
does is elevate the leader aboveyou know that whole CEO

(40:16):
mentality rather than doesn't it.
Yeah, and so you, you don't feellike, and I've this has been a
problem myself.
I am like you acknowledged atthe beginning, as a worship
leader.
I'm open, I try to betransparent, I'm very I I
embrace a lot of the talk aboutvulnerability in leadership and

(40:37):
I try to model that and itbackfires if, if those
expectations and then it cancome back and haunt you.
So my attempt at beingvulnerable with one of the
boards that I was that, that Iwas accountable to it, became
problematic because they didn'twant me to process my concerns

(41:01):
and and what they saw as excusesthat I saw I was trying to
rationalize or explain whythings weren't happening.
So there were a certain numberof board members who were much
more productivity and metricsoriented who were saying we
don't want to sit listening tothese excuses, we want solutions

(41:25):
and it was like, okay, and thenthen this raft of almost they
pulled out minutes of what I'dbeen saying in the past in my
vault attempt of beingvulnerable and they became
evidence for the prosecution.

(41:47):
So, it was very uncomfortabletime sitting as a leader through
one of these very, verytraumatic process In fact, this
happened at a Christmas dinner,so I just given the board all
these gifts and put on this bigdinner for them and then got
this bearer.
One board member resigned as aresult was a gastric edit, but

(42:07):
it had been brewing for a longtime and I hadn't seen it
brewing.
In my naivety I was, but itjust, it just.
I walked away thinking, yeah,I'm in the wrong place.
I'm not meant for this type oforganizational structure.
This will ruin me if I stayhere, and I sort of decided from

(42:29):
that point on to look forpathways to exit.
And I still sit veryuncomfortable in some of the
spheres that I'm working in nowbecause they're still dominated
by a much more Eurocentricperspective and to bring an
indigenous or majority worldvoice into those.
It feels like you're just theone always being the problematic

(42:50):
.
But instead of this it canbecome exhausting.
So being retreating into a muchmore like minded group of
indigenous networks would be alot easier.
But you know somebody needs tobe in that mix.
So loneliness is a danger.

(43:13):
So you need to really surroundyourself and I think resilience
theory has this web ofrelationships aspect to it.
The more relationships you havethat are actually related to
each other, the more resilientyou're likely to be.
And I mean, if that's not atribal collectivist mentality, I

(43:35):
don't know what it is.
And that's why indigenous loveto retreat to their group
frequently just to feel likeyou're okay.
And I remember Kea admissions,when we used to go to the big
conferences that would gatherand then we'd split off into our
sending country groups.
That was like a lifeline to themissionaries that we'd set,

(43:58):
because they were able to talkwith people like minded, like
themselves.
They could talk about the othercultures and their frustrations
in a safe environment and thenthe leader as a leader.
I was then tasked to help sortof sort of message those
perspectives and put them incontext and help them grow from
that and not sit in thatfrustration.

(44:19):
We're not a firm.
The potential toxicity of doingthat echo chamber.
But this is the perfect reasonwhy I think in scripture, with
the reading into the Jews andGentiles narrative, the pulling
down the walls of hostility, thewhole New Testament arc is this

(44:41):
reconciling the diversities ofthe peoples of the world and the
people of God and Christ.
This is our key witness to theworld.
You need to be willing to sit inthat tension of difference,
because you can't have harmonywithout tension.
Harmony exists through to tunetension.

(45:04):
So any ideal, any expectationthat the Christian life, the
unity of the Christian life, isgoing to be absent of conflict
or tension or trials or troublesyou just read James one he's
talking about in the community,not persecutions.
There it's to mature us andit's to the shalom.

(45:27):
Harmony is created from thesitting, in the tensions and
like a yeast, fermentationhappens, that we are transformed
by the renewing of our mind inthat process and I think the
burnout is thinking oh, wouldn'tit just be nice to be an easy,
everybody agrees context.

(45:48):
Well, it's never going tohappen.
So we rely, realign ourexpectations to this really hard
members meeting or this reallytoxic feedback from a
problematic member of mycongregation or missions group.
These things it's a little bitof a platitude to say these

(46:10):
things are there to shape us,but these things they do.
Interpersonal neurobiology showsus that we are shaping one
another continually.
But then attachment theoryyou've done that will show the
absolute necessity of feelinglike you belong to something, to

(46:31):
God and first and then to agroup of God's people.
That may not always agree, butthere's a certain loving one
another, compassion andpersevering with one another
that comes through it.
But this sense of purpose, thisoverriding sense of where are
we going?
What is our eschatology?

(46:51):
What is Christ doing in themiddle of all of this turmoil?
The spirit is at work there andwe need to see it positively
rather than pathologically.
A lot more so if we canrearrange ourselves and have
tools to process conflict,process trauma, really well, I

(47:12):
think, as leaders, equippingthem with these tools may help
create a much more healthyleadership style.

Valerie Ling (47:20):
I suspect too.
I think it's great that youbrought up the attachment and
the neurobiology.
I suspect, too, thatfollowership needs to understand
that when we use the levels ofconflict, where we're using
rejection, we're actuallyattacking a personhood.
That is significant impact onleaders and it's actually

(47:42):
unnecessary.
When you're disagreeing withone another.
That's the sort of thing thatabsolutely destroys a sense of
belonging.

Jay Matenga (47:51):
I would go so far as to say it's demonic.
There is a spirit of the age atthe moment that is fueled by
the one who just exists to steal, kill and destroy, and that's
relational.
Satan exists as the accuser andthe opposer, I believe, first

(48:15):
and foremost to grow us, tomature us, but also it's there
as a counter to what God isdoing in order to strengthen the
body of Christ.
But if we're leaning into it,if we're leaning into
destructive relationships and weare responding as you've just
said, then we are on that sideof the fence and we're not

(48:39):
Galatians 5.
We're not evidencing the fruitof the Spirit, we're not
standing firm in the armor ofGod.
So when we start to see theseconcepts in Scripture that Paul
brings out from a relationalframe rather than from a
productivity frame.
So missions has got caught upin the task.
We've got a task to achieve.

(49:01):
Well, the New Testament doesn'tspeak in those terms at all.
We've got a witness to be, andthat witness is a harmonious,
loving community in Christ thatisn't shy of difference but also
doesn't dishonor.
It guards the dignity of othersand it seeks the good of others

(49:23):
, not to destroy them or cutthem down.
Again, this is the stuff thatwe need to see coming out of
Scripture and a scripturally ledvision of the good that we can
then lead people into.
So, yeah, if there are peoplethat have got to the level of

(49:43):
toxicity where they are rippingdown and they're accusing and
there's just that malice andhate, there is absolutely no
biblical defense for that.
It is and I say it advisedlydemonic part of the strategy of
the enemy that won't survive orwon't stand.

(50:04):
We don't need to fear that ornecessarily combat it.
And I love what Ding Sherman, aspiritual warfare teacher and
why we're back in the day, usedto say that our response to
trauma is our best weapon,spiritual weapon.

(50:25):
So when something happens to usthat is bad, or somebody comes
at us, as we respond with thecharacter of Christ, we're
combating that demonic affront,and Jesus did it with Peter.
So it's not saying that thosepeople are demon possessed.

(50:47):
It's saying that they'reallowing themselves to be used
as a tool of the enemy and ouronly response is not to combat.
We're not wrestling againstflesh and blood.
We're to come with compassionand loving, kindness, with a
sense of peace, gentleness,faithfulness, self control,

(51:10):
those things.
So this is the character Christis trying to form in us and if
we have that idea of good wecould be better off.
But I'm not diminishing it inany way, the tough context that
a lot of these leaders arefinding themselves in, because
it's a brutal world at themoment.

(51:31):
Out there trying to lead people, there are a lot of influences
coming from left, right andsecondary.

Valerie Ling (51:38):
And so, jay, just to conclude, if there was a
leader, a pastor, or evensomeone from the missions
community we don't know whomight be listening to this but a
Christian leader.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away from?
Listening to us?

Jay Matenga (52:00):
I have a hashtag on the end of my blogs I always
put stay on mission, and missioncan be perceived as completing
the task, et cetera.
But I have it much more in themind of the missio day, because
the missio day is creatingcommunities.
I explained it this wayrecently that whenever we gather

(52:22):
together in Christ, we shouldbe creating a trailer for the
movie that's to come.
So this kingdom now not yet.
Whenever we gather as thecommunity of God's people in
Jesus Christ, as we go out intoour communities, wider
communities and societies, intoour habitats, we need to be

(52:44):
giving people a glimpse ofwhat's coming.
So we may not be perfect but weshould be aspiring to that.
Stay on mission really speaksfrom James.
One again where James talksabout it consider it joys when
you're getting hassled by yourcongregation or your mission's
team or the expectations of yourdonors or whatever those

(53:07):
troubles are that James refersto.
Remember James is talking toin-house, it's not external to
the body.
Whatever they are, consider itgreat joy that they're happening
, because if you hold the faithand persevere, you will mature.
And there's a spiral aspects towhat James is talking about

(53:28):
there and in his context it wasthe rich Jews versus the poor
Jews.
That was where the tensionpoint was, and the powerful,
chatty, loose-lipped people whowere gossiping, et cetera, et
cetera.
But he says just hold the faithof the community, hold together
, work it through, because inthat perseverance of what I call

(53:50):
perpetual reconciliation,you'll mature, and when maturity
, when it's done its work,you'll be completing nothing.
That is our aspiration.
That is why we're staying onmission and we need to get a
sense of an eternal purpose tohelp us stay in the fray.
Now.

(54:11):
There will be times whereyou'll perceive it becomes
overly abusive.
You just can't stay there foryour own well-being, you need to
find another community, butthat should be an exception
rather than the rule, if we'reall committed to that sort of
same outcome.
But we still work in progress.

Valerie Ling (54:35):
And so if there was somebody within a church
community listening to us,what's one thing you would want
them to walk away with?

Jay Matenga (54:43):
Yeah, give your leaders space.
They've got a lot going on thatyou know nothing about.
It's not just, it's not allabout me, it's not about you.
So, again, from a collectivistbackground, we've intuitively
perceived this it's about thewell-being of the group, and our
individualist society has givenus the sense of self-authority

(55:05):
that says it should be, my needsshould be being met, whereas
the collectivist orientation ishow can I contribute to the
well-being of the whole?
And so that reorientation isvery important, not that we well
actually denying yourselftaking up your cross and

(55:25):
following me.
I read that, interpretedthrough Paul's Philippians 2
attitude of Christ, that iscanotical canosis, that is the
emptying yourself, and it'sgiving up your privileges in
your rights and your need to befulfilled and investing it in

(55:46):
others.
And I think I'm not a formalcounselling training but I've
done enough counselling readingto realize that as people come
out and start contributing, alot of this sense of loneliness,
a lot of this sense ofworthlessness etc.
Etc can be restored indevelopment.

(56:10):
People want to be able to giveback, something to reciprocate,
so not like for like or valuefor them.

Valerie Ling (56:30):
My connection's got a bit weird.
There Are you with me?
My connection got a bit weird,so I'm going to try to throw in
one last one.
If there are decision makers,policy makers, can you hear me
still?

Jay Matenga (56:44):
Yes.

Valerie Ling (56:45):
Yes, decision makers, policymakers, board
members, you know what's onething you'd like them to walk
away with Jay.

Jay Matenga (56:54):
Yeah, don't hold your leaders vulnerability
against them.
It would be one thing, but yeah, also I think empathy is a very
strong aspect.
One of the things I've deeplyappreciated coming into missions
, into link and even the missioncommission globally, is that
I'm working with CEOs who are myboard members, ceos of other

(57:14):
mission agencies, and there'sjust this level of understanding
and empathy and a level ofgratitude for what I do from
these ones, because I've beenthere and you know why we need
outside input from people indifferent spheres law, finance

(57:36):
and business, etc.
Etc.
On boards.
It's really tough for them tofully understand the
organizations we're seeking tolead the congregation.
Maybe an eldership board is alittle different because they're
part of it, but even that hasits own peculiarities because

(57:56):
they become ones that you'realso trying to lead and may hold
you to a higher account.
But empathy would be a big oneand just the willingness to see
themselves as the point ofaccountability for a leader to
see themselves as part of thisand part of the narrative and to

(58:16):
be hugely influential in theirnarratives because they get to
decide what they releaseresources for, what they would
hold the leader accountable forOne of the things.
Just in closing, I sit on the asa board member.
I sit on the council, theInternational Council of
InterServe, and one of the firstthings when I first joined the

(58:38):
board it was very presumptuousof me, but I was sitting there
watching a majority worldinternational director and
Indian give a report or anaccount, an evaluation report
based on a whole heap of metrics, and it was really quite

(58:58):
struggling to do so.
According to you know, outcomesbased stuff they were literally
called out performance outcomesand there was me and an African
, latin American, a couple ofothers on this.
New to this council was why iswhy are we asking him to report
on these type of things?

(59:19):
So we, I put a proposal in thatwe shift and we change the
reporting process to we meettwice a year to two aspects of a
values set values and wellbeingset.
So now he reports the firsthalf of the year on how the

(59:41):
activities in the organization,international organization, are
aligning with the core values ofthe organization and then, on
the other hand, what's thenarrative of the wellbeing of
the organization?
So how, where are the threats,where are the?
So it's not so much outcomes orperformance, it's about
wellbeing and life, about giving, breathing life into what the

(01:00:02):
organization exists for.
So I think if we can get boardsto I mean just financial
metrics and other things we doas well.
But from the CEO'saccountability point of view, is
she an effective or she aneffective CEO on the basis of
the health of the organization?

(01:00:23):
And there's a lot of reasons,ways around that, and it depends
on the organization as to whathealth looks like.
But in ministry, health shouldlook like healthy relationships,
healthy people, healthycontribution and people feeling
like they're part of something,a community that is providing

(01:00:47):
them life even as they give lifeto it.

Valerie Ling (01:00:51):
You've given me a lot to think about.
Thank you so much for spendingthe time with me, jay.
It's been such a joy andhopefully we don't have to wait
to see you in another couple ofyears.
We are, josh and I, are hopingto get to Kenya next year.
Maybe we'll see you there.
Yeah, I'll try to be there.

(01:01:12):
We shouldn't be here.
Thanks for your time, jay.
You're welcome.

Jay Matenga (01:01:17):
Thank you.

Valerie Ling (01:01:22):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.