August 17, 2023 • 60 mins
Ever feel like you're on the brink of burnout, especially in these pandemic-ridden times? You're not alone. On today's episode, we've got the honour of hosting Dr. Grant Bickerton, who takes a deep dive into the changing landscape of Christian ministry and how it's impacting those on the front lines. We begin by exploring the unique challenges and psychological toll the pandemic has had on Christian workers, resulting in significant loss and grief that can eventually lead to burnout.
We also dive into the murky waters of job satisfaction and wellbeing in ministry. Grant shares his views on isolation and loneliness among Christian workers and provides insights on why many are reluctant to admit they're considering leaving ministry. We also talk candidly about the complexities of family suffering as a driver for self-sacrificial roles in ministry and the critical need for measuring and addressing the causes of burnout.
Further into the episode, we confront some tough issues such as conflict, bullying, and leadership dynamics within ministry. We examine the damaging implications of workplace conflicts and potential bullying, and delve into the importance of accepting leadership and understanding the role of personal development and self-care plans.
Finally, we discuss how to best nurture and empower team members, stressing the importance of providing room for growth and risk-taking. Join us for this gripping conversation with Dr. Bickerton and learn how we can navigate through these challenging times in ministry together.
Are you a ministry leader looking for a pastoral/professional supervisor? Perhaps you are needing some counselling support? Send me an email: valerie@effectiveserving.com.au
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Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Dr Grant Bickerton.
Hi Grant.
Dr Grant Bickerton (00:08):
Hi, Valerie, good to see you.
Valerie Ling (00:09):
Good to see you.
It's been 10 years, this iswhat I figured out 10 years
since we have met one another.
Wow, yeah, 10 years.
Could you tell us a little bitabout you, your role and where
you are?
Dr Grant Bickerton (00:26):
Yeah, yes, I serve with a Christian mission
organization called Power toChange, formerly known as Campus
Crusade for Christ, and my rolewith them is particularly
around the development and thewell-being of our missionaries.
But my background is as apsychologist and, yeah, I spent
(00:49):
some time doing my PhD researchlooking into particularly what
role does organizational,psychological and spiritual
factors play in the well-beingof Christian workers so clergy,
missionaries, chaplains, youthworkers, all that kind of stuff
and so that's been a real loveof mine over the past 10 years,
(01:14):
for sure, looking to explore howdo we think about that and how
can we promote that amongstpeople.
Valerie Ling (01:22):
Yeah, so years ago .
What got you into doing thatresearch?
Dr Grant Bickerton (01:28):
Yeah, so I've actually been serving with
Power to Change all time since1999.
But very early on I saw peoplein ministry, not just Power to
Change, friends in clergy,ministry, people overseas.
I saw people not doing verywell over time, not doing very
(01:53):
well psychologically, not doingvery well spiritually, and when
people would leave they wouldleave very badly.
And so my real interest was notjust being involved in ministry
myself, but how do we encourageone another to prevent us
falling back in to struggling?
(02:14):
So it was actually just seeingpeople struggling is what got me
interested in that for sure.
Valerie Ling (02:22):
And 10 years on Grant, do you think the
landscape has shifted?
Similar issues different issues.
Dr Grant Bickerton (02:29):
Yeah, the landscape certainly has shifted.
We've had a pandemic that'scaused changes.
Things are changing all thetime, I think For the better or
worse.
There's just so many differentfactors in play.
Our culture is changing, howChristian workers are perceived
(02:52):
I think that has changed over 10, 15 years.
For sure it's changed thedynamic.
It's changed how people mightlook at a person or see them or
evaluate them.
I think there's a much greaterrecognition of struggle and what
impact that has on things.
With the COVID pandemic,there's a whole lot of change
(03:16):
there which brought about awhole lot of loss and a whole
lot of grief.
And have we recovered from that?
I'm not sure.
All kinds of things actually, Ithink, have changed, valerie,
but yeah, I don't know if I'dsay for the better or worse.
Actually there's just lots ofdifferent things going on.
Valerie Ling (03:32):
Now you mentioned the grief and the loss.
What do you see?
What is the grief and loss?
Where is it coming from?
Dr Grant Bickerton (03:43):
Well, I think grief in ministry is a big
deal actually and not wellappreciated For me.
Every time there's a change,even a positive change, there's
likely going to be some loss,and wherever there's loss
there's going to be grief.
But often maybe we don't thinkabout it like that.
(04:04):
So I think there can be lots oflosses involved.
There might be losses in termsof relationships.
Things might change,relationships might change.
I might lose contact withpeople or the relationship.
I still have contacts, but it'snot the same as what it was
before.
There's grief involved withthat.
I think there can be griefinvolved with just am I going to
(04:25):
be OK?
Things are changing around me,maybe my work environment's
changed?
Am I going to be OK?
Or am I going to be safe?
Or will this be able to go on?
Or is this viable?
Will I be OK?
Maybe that's a bit of a loss ofsafety and security,
relationship safety and security.
Sometimes, particularly with apandemic, there can be a real
(04:47):
loss of competence.
I thought I was competent atthis role.
The role has changed or I'mbeing required to do different
things and all of a sudden Idon't feel competent anymore.
The old saying promoted to mylevel of incompetence.
Sometimes that occurs and well,there's a loss there, there's a
(05:08):
loss of competence, and that'sa very significant thing.
Sometimes there's losses interms of my mission and purpose.
Maybe I had a great desire todo X, but because of Y and Z,
things have changed and actuallyI'm no longer going to be able
(05:29):
to do X at all.
Well, there's a grief thereactually.
So grief can occur, I think, ina myriad of ways in ministry
that might not necessarily beeasily identified as that, those
losses they accumulate.
Valerie Ling (05:47):
And Grant, did you pick that up 10 years ago?
Was that something you lookedinto or has this been much more
emergent as you've interacted inthis space?
Dr Grant Bickerton (05:56):
It's much more emergent, definitely,
although in exploring withpeople where some of the
distress comes from, it usuallyis around some of those things.
An accumulation of these thingsover time can become really
quite wearing, so my energy canbe drained or eroded, yeah
(06:20):
because I think I wanted to askyou.
Valerie Ling (06:23):
10 years on, I see you really as having
kickstarted the conversationaround resilience in ministry,
well-being in ministry burnout.
And typically one sees burnoutas an occupational phenomenon,
being that we're not just sayingto the individual toughen up or
(06:44):
self-care or work on yourindividual factors.
It is the intersection, isn'tit?
When you think about yourresearch and the pandemic, grief
and loss issues, one almost canfeel like, well, what is there
to do?
It's a systems issue.
It's not like we can reversethe pandemic, it's not like we
(07:07):
can take away the stressors.
And if the individual ispossibly doing the best that
they can, how do we actuallyview that?
Do you know what I mean fromthe framework of an occupational
phenomenon?
Dr Grant Bickerton (07:23):
Great, it's a great question.
I would always say that I wouldsay burnout is a systemic issue
, but when I'm burning out, itfeels like a deeply personal
issue.
It's me I'm failing, I'm notgood enough, I'm not resilient
enough, or whatever the phraseis.
(07:44):
I really affirm what you'vesaid it is a system issue.
However, I am complicit with mysystem, and so there are
individual factors going on here, and so I think it's possible
to discuss and identify what arethe systemic issues and maybe
(08:07):
what are some resources thatcould enable us to engage on
that system level.
Now, that might involve in somesystemic change, and I think
that is possible because we'renot passive agents in our
environment.
We are active agents, and Iknow that can seem hard to hear
(08:31):
sometimes because it's like well, I don't lead a congregation of
200.
I've got 200 bosses, is how onemight feel, but I think we do
have agency to affect somechange.
That's one thing.
Then there are individualissues that can actually help
keep negative dynamics in place,and so we do need to have an
(08:54):
awareness of well, what role amI playing?
How am I complicit to this?
What are my own background orpersonal factors that might be
even exacerbating some of thenegative impacts of the
environment.
So one thing I'd say is I thinkwe can have a go at changing
the environment.
We're not totally passive, butthere are also individual issues
(09:16):
that we can explore as well.
So it's going to be both ofthose things is going to be
important.
I think very rarely is it allone or all the other.
However, some environments oneshould never have to be
resilient in, some environmentsare abusive and so in that
(09:41):
environment one needs to leave.
So there's a few ideas aroundthat issue about the systemic
versus the individual, and theinterplay is actually quite
important.
I must say.
Sometimes I've seenorganisations who in my
experience most organisationswant people to do well.
(10:01):
They really do.
Leaders often want their peopleto do well, but sometimes the
provision of resources is eithernot understood or I'm just too
exhausted to take up the extraopportunity when I really have
no energy, and even giving me apositive challenge that will
(10:26):
help and feel like a hindrancethat I just can't cope with.
So there's a lot of things, alot of moving parts in this
discussion.
I wish it was as simple as aone solution.
There's no silver bullet here.
We're complicated and we're indynamics that are very
(10:47):
complicated and the Christianministry environment is a
complicated area.
Valerie Ling (10:54):
Well, let's go through some of my findings and
see how it maps, or what youfound in your research, but also
in your practice, because youstill continue to practice as a
psychologist and you still arevery much seeing ministry
workers.
So about 35% of my sampleendorsed around 200 ministers
(11:16):
endorsed moderate to high levelsof burnout, as measured by my
questions.
Does that surprise you?
Dr Grant Bickerton (11:26):
No, so well, we've had this discussion
before.
The devil is in the details,with research and numbers, and
moderate to very high.
So a lot of it depends uponwhat measure we're using.
But that does not surprise me,apart from I thought it would be
(11:47):
even a little higher.
I thought it would be higheractually.
So clergy in general havehigher levels of burnout than
the average population, soChristian workers will have
elevated levels of burnout fullstop.
(12:07):
So it depends upon what's thegroup we're norming those
numbers on.
But Christian workers oftenhave higher levels of motivation
as well, and so the strain orthe stress from work usually is
higher for Christian workers,because it's so important and
(12:31):
because I'm so motivated to doit and it's infused with the
divine.
So, to be honest, this 35%surprise me no, apart from I
thought it might be a bit higher.
So I would probably say, yeah,that's probably my experience.
Valerie Ling (12:52):
Okay and about 35% seriously thought of leaving
the ministry in the last 12months.
Dr Grant Bickerton (12:59):
Yeah, I think that's definitely true.
I've heard of other researchfloating around that definitely,
post pandemic, one in threeclergy are seriously leaving
their role.
So I would.
That rings true to me, andthree reasons.
Valerie Ling (13:20):
My family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated.
Which were in the highest 70s,a percentage wise, because you
could endorse a few of these.
My family suffers, I feellonely and isolated.
Were in the high 70s and 49%indicated the immense stress of
the job.
Dr Grant Bickerton (13:41):
Yeah, I thought that was really
interesting.
I think people who go intoministry, there's a degree of
self-sacrifice to start with, sothe immense stress of the job
one might think, oh, that shouldhave been higher.
(14:03):
Oh, maybe, maybe not.
Maybe that's about expectations.
There is a expectation thatthis is going to be, that I
might suffer, or something likethat.
The 76%.
When I see my family suffering,that's a different motivational
(14:26):
pull then to change orsomething.
So I thought that wasinteresting and I would agree.
When push comes to shove, Imight get used to being in a
dynamic where I am, yeah, a bitof a self-sacrificial servant
(14:46):
and I can even have sometheological justification,
rightly or wrongly, for that.
But when I see my familysuffering, I often like to ask
people this question if youconsider your experience and
what your life is like servingJesus in your role, would you
(15:09):
wish that for one of your mostloved family members?
And if I can't say yes, there'san issue there.
What I'm trying to pull on is abit of this issue.
Yeah, that people who I love.
I would not wish to show onanyone, but I'll take this
myself and then that deserves anexplanation.
(15:32):
So what really jumped out at mewas that 76%.
That was very interesting forthese family suffers and I would
agree.
I think that's a powerfulmotivator.
Yeah, you lonely and isolated.
That is absolutely 100% true,particularly when you're talking
about your sample, which isheavily skewed from males older
(15:58):
males, definitely I would thinkthat's a big issue.
That's a big issue full stop.
What I was also interested inwith that statistic, though, is
that there's quite a largepercent I think was like 80% of
your sample was in multi-staffpositions.
(16:18):
Now I thought that wasinteresting.
So definitely that would betrue, for an individual in a
sole pastoral position makessense.
What I thought was interestingabout that was 75%.
Well, 80% of your sample wasactually in like a one to five
(16:38):
to more than 10 staff situation.
Good pickup Grant, now that'sinteresting.
Why is it that I can't speak tomy colleagues about feeling
isolated and alone?
I know that it can be true.
Sometimes, when I'm in ministry, I don't want to acknowledge to
(17:03):
my peers, particularly thosewho I work with, that I'm
thinking about leaving.
There's a whole lot of lettingpeople down, letting God down,
whatever.
I just thought that wasinteresting.
75%, so isolated, alone, that'swhat I think you're leaving,
and 80% of them, well, you knowwe haven't looked at that, but
(17:26):
80% of them are in teams.
So yeah, so those top threereasons I thought were
interesting and they kind ofmake sense.
I found them interesting, yeah.
Valerie Ling (17:44):
Did you pick up those dynamics in your
publications?
Dr Grant Bickerton (17:49):
Oh no, I know.
So I've measured lonelinessmyself.
But even talking to Christianworkers, I know, and in my
organization I do stayinginterviews for our missionaries.
I've been around for a while.
I do debriefs, I do exitinterviews and, yeah, there is
(18:14):
that sense within us of I don'twant to let my people down.
Have I talked to people aboutthis beforehand?
I used to find out all thisinformation exit interviews.
I thought if only we'd knownthis earlier.
That's why now, after peoplehave been involved for two years
in our organization, we do astaying interview and basically
it's the same questions.
Don't tell anyone as the exitinterview, ooh a lot of podcasts
(18:38):
is gonna be broadcast.
But you find out this stuffearly.
Yeah what's the problem?
Oh, there's multiple factors.
There's gonna be factors aboutjob fit that's gonna be
important.
There'll be factors aboutrecovery and workload and
(18:58):
balance and that kind of thing.
There's gonna be stuff aboutirritations that are really now
staying to rub and form theblister.
There's gonna be stuff aboutlongevity issues, financial
viability and all manner ofthings.
You find out all manner ofthings.
My point is is that when peopleleave, they usually don't leave
(19:20):
for just one issue, probably afour, three or four or five.
But here's a chance to get abit of a pulse early about what
are some of the pressure pointsthat we could do something with
now, while there's still somemotivation and desire.
Valerie Ling (19:37):
Yeah, that's a great point, grant.
It makes me stop to think thatit also then depends on what you
measure or what you're asking,because if there are multiple
points, it's almost like you'vegot to be aware of what those
points are that are going toimpact.
So from your experience, justfrom asking those questions at
(20:01):
the two-year mark, justanecdotally, even, what would be
some of the common multiplereasons?
Dr Grant Bickerton (20:09):
Oh yeah, Well, it's probably at eight to
10.
And usually I think there'sgonna be some degree of
expectation, unmet expectations,the expectations for whether it
be more successful in ministrythan I am, expectations to have
(20:30):
seen more than I do,expectations to not do as much
admin as I'm doing.
So there's gonna be probablysome degree of unmet
expectations, either about myown ministry success or about
maybe my own spirituality orsomething my expectations.
There's probably gonna be somedegree of job misfit, because
(20:54):
there's so many things Christianworkers have to do.
You've got to be good at allthese different things, and some
of them we might be good at,and some of them that's what we
got in the ministry for.
But now I've also got tointervene with conflict and I've
also got to raise funds andI've also got to manage
volunteers.
I've also got to be acounsellor and I've also got to
(21:16):
be a great scholar.
Now, not all of those thingsare gonna fit me, and so how do
I figure out where the ones thatare draining me particularly
were, the ones that are actuallyI'm thriving in, and how do we
manage that?
There's gonna be some kind of ajob redesign.
Often there's ambiguity what amI meant to be doing?
(21:38):
I can feel like I'm never doingenough or I'm never good enough
, because how do I measure whatI'm doing?
How do I stop for a weekend ora day off if I feel like I don't
know if I've done enough thisweek?
So there's ambiguity.
We could go on.
All that's gonna lead toworkover mode probably.
(22:00):
But then the other thingsyou've mentioned isolation that
that can be there, that'sprobably gonna be there.
Just spiritual vitality Oftenwe can live 18 months off our
initial, so spiritual vitalityis gonna be in there.
There might be some financialconcerns.
There's a whole lot the changeof society, the change in roles.
(22:23):
There's a few of the ones thatoften do come up.
Valerie Ling (22:27):
Now, given that ministry personnel generally
don't have great levels ofself-awareness in general, if
you're asking these questions,are people able to answer with
self-awareness, or do you haveto know what to ask?
Dr Grant Bickerton (22:50):
I don't think the questions I ask are
particularly amazing.
I will ask questions like whatare some of the things you just
really love, what are some ofthe things you're really finding
difficult?
And then I think aboutdifferent categories of what you
might find difficult the actualrole, part of your role,
relationships, your own personallife, recovery, family.
So I'm not asking rocketscience, but questions.
(23:13):
But I find people are prettygood.
The reason why we do this aroundthe two year mark is that's
when you start to feel thehotspot.
You know, when you go for along run, if you're a long
runner not that I'm not, I am,but anyway.
So I'm told I've done a lot ofwalking maybe, but before you
(23:33):
get a blister, you'll get whatthey call a hotspot in the place
that we're walking Around thetwo year mark.
The initial shine has oftenworn off and, as you know, the
big issue with burnout is thechronicity of the exhaustion,
(23:58):
and so you can suck it up formaybe a year, pushing out to 18
months, but you're probablygonna start to see some hotspots
arrive then.
So by the time we're startingto ask these questions with a
little bit of probing, peopleare aware that they're
struggling and if there's arelationship of trust or
(24:20):
security, people are alreadyquite open.
Valerie Ling (24:25):
Yeah, Well now, interesting that you say there's
a relationship of trust andsecurity.
If I jump to the personalviolence questions that I asked,
really interesting In the last12 months the level of offensive
behaviour experienced by youpersonally.
Now again, I can't reallydefine this.
It's a little bit like a testof projection.
It's how you interpret it andyou can endorse more than one as
(24:51):
well.
So you can see that some reallysad things you know threats of
violence, sexual harassment,physical violence, you know was
endorsed, and then we've gotfeeling bullied, being subject
to unpleasant teasing, conflictsand quarrels, gossip and
slander.
What did you tell me when yousaw that?
Well, the conflicts andquarrels that makes total sense.
Dr Grant Bickerton (25:17):
I haven't thought much about gossip and
slander, but that's high.
I thought that was high.
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
?
But I think that's a good point?
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
that's high?
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
(25:38):
?
Yeah, I'm not surprised at that.
In fact, I wouldn't have beensurprised if that was even a
little bit higher, because oftenwhen people are involved in
conflicts and quarrelsparticularly when it depends
upon the church but there is ait depends on the determination,
(26:03):
but there's a point ofvulnerability.
If I am quarreling withinfluential parishioners, to be
honest, there's a point of realvulnerability and I can feel
bullied in a conflict.
So I was interested by that.
I thought that might have beena bit higher, but I was
(26:26):
interested as well in terms oflooking at the correlations, how
conflicts and quarrels had moreof a drain than bullying.
Now, that really surprised me.
So again, I'm just thinkingwell, what is going on there?
But it does go to the point ofwhat are we doing with conflict?
(26:48):
How do we disagree well andremain unified rather than
seeing, unless we agree 100%about things, we need to be in
this protracted conflict.
So I think the way we thinkabout conflict, I think that's
(27:10):
an area that really deserves alot more work.
I think about John Gottman andhis work or approach with
conflict in a marital state andI think that has a lot of legs
for Christian workers actually.
Valerie Ling (27:29):
Yeah, I agree, as a business we're really turning
our eye to the psychosocialhazards of a workplace because
we've got legislation.
And I was struck by how much ofthis dynamic, the constant
conflict, feeling like you'regoing to workplace where maybe
(27:49):
you're not liked, people don'tagree with you, that people are
going to say stuff about you andyour family From a psychosocial
hazard as an employer, knowingwhat's going on in your
workplace, that if someone isturning up to that every day,
that's just going to build upbecause your livelihood is tied
(28:11):
to it.
And in ministry, your sense ofcalling conviction, your love
for Jesus and knowing theconsequence of what happens when
people don't know Jesus, youkind of get a sense of you're
trapped, like how do you get outof this space?
And maybe an assumption thatbut this is, I often hear this.
(28:35):
But isn't this what ministry ismeant to be all about?
It's a tough gig, right?
Nobody signed up for an easyjob.
You're always going to haveconflict and yet I can see from
the standards in the workplacewe wouldn't say that.
Dr Grant Bickerton (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
And that's when you get intothe zone of post traumatic
stress symptomology.
Whatever you want, I'm not notwounded, I agree with you.
No, that's not the diagnosisand stuff, but just trying to
say there's symptomology therewhere I'm learning and you know,
(29:18):
I'm learning that this is not asafe place and I'm helpless.
Valerie Ling (29:23):
Yeah, and you talked about the cognitive
deficits.
If we kind of, you know, lookat the whole picture and it's
nice to be able to bounce thiswith a fellow psychologist,
because this has probably beenon my heart for a long time is,
you know, when you talk aboutthe cognitive deficits, this
level of chronic stress, thislevel of toxicity and conflict
rejection that you feel, youknow, lack of safety, plus the
(29:49):
pandemic, you know it will eatinto those resources.
You're from a psychologicalhealth, but just from you know
how much your own body and mindcan cope with you know.
So I'm looking at this becauseyou know you.
I think I told you this, butthis was my last minute question
(30:11):
that I threw in.
I was like, hey, let's just seeif you know some of what I'm
seeing.
Walk into our clinic door.
What's?
Whether people will endorsethese items.
I'm really concerned.
And at which point do we saythis is normal ministry conflict
, do you know?
Dr Grant Bickerton (30:30):
great, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I think also because, because,because, like, like, a therapist
(30:50):
will certainly have a skewedperspective because of, well,
who is a therapist?
See people who are struggling,and so obviously that that's
true.
But, yes, the the, the ideaabout that, this is what this is
what should be expected inministry.
(31:12):
I'm just not, I'm just not verysatisfied with that.
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I don't likethe sound of that.
Like I can appreciate wheresome people might coming from,
for that I just the damage thatit does to people and then to
their families and then to thechildren of those families, I
(31:36):
really I just find that verydistressing.
Yes, so so we're talking hereprobably about the difference
between conflict versus bullying, workplace in civility area,
and I think that's that wholeworkplace in civility literature
(31:59):
would be helpful to look at interms of what is acceptable,
what isn't acceptable.
And hey, you know, let's faceit, I know there's legislation,
legislation, legislation outthere about bullying and stuff.
But you know, companies outsideof the church not like, they're
doing great here, but butthere's something about inside
(32:24):
the church where our views areturbo charged with our spiritual
convictions.
They can just leave peopleactually forgetting to behave
like the person who founded ourfaith in the first place.
Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I'm justglad to go on here.
Valerie Ling (32:46):
No, I think that's interesting what you said about
workplace in civility.
Again, as an employer, I'mreflecting because we're going
through our work health safetyprocedures and going through our
handbooks and the number oftimes we've had to update it
grant to stay not just relevantto legislation.
But you know new things happenin the world, like new kinds of
(33:08):
unkindness in the world, likewe've got to be aware of.
You know what's appropriate andinappropriate to put into
social media interactions withone another as staff.
You know what is appropriate interms of what is a fatigue,
what?
How do you define fatigue inthe workplace?
You know like it's not just assimple as your workload, but
(33:31):
there's all these other thingsdemand, pace, decision making,
the amount of responsibility youhave, the risk that you hold in
a job as well.
Right, and we've just been goingthrough our own fan book and to
some extent it does define tous what, what, what is
considered professional conductand also what is considered
(33:54):
conduct that keeps yourself andyour workmates safe, not just
the heavy lifting things or youknow whether or not you're using
equipment unsafely, butworkplace dynamics.
You know what is actuallyconsidered appropriate and
inappropriate and havingconstant conversations about
(34:16):
what is appropriate andinappropriate in the workplace,
and I wonder whether that's partof the confusion in churches.
Because what you know, we knowwe're meant to love one another.
We know we're meant to serveone another, we know we're meant
to be other person centered,but how do we then know when
(34:37):
we're just being selfish ordemanding or even threatened
about our own position?
Do you know like I feel sostrongly about this and you
don't, and one of us is wrong,and I know it's not me and I'm
willing to put a gospel stake onthat.
Dr Grant Bickerton (35:00):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Yeah, and I think thedifficulty, another difficulty
is with the dynamic is that when, when people, when I go to
church, I don't go to church asit's my workplace, now for my,
my, my, minister, it is theirworkplace but it's not my
(35:21):
workplace, and so they can belike a bit of a disconnect from
the community about what is thisplace.
Valerie Ling (35:28):
Yeah, what are.
Dr Grant Bickerton (35:31):
I'm a little looser, maybe it's a little
more like my family, yeah, yeah.
So there can be a bit of thatkind of stuff too, playing in
like what's what?
How do I, how do I view whatI'm doing here?
I'm a Christian workerperspective it's my workplace,
(35:52):
others it's not, and that justadds to that in the complexity
of lines of authority andexpectations.
Valerie Ling (36:02):
And so if we look at the picture now, this happy
picture, loneliness, thinking,you know, worrying that my
family suffers, plus the workstress, and now this conflict,
the picture that I'm wonderingis how do you get yourself out
(36:23):
of that?
Or what resources you know fromyour model really speaks into
that space.
Dr Grant Bickerton (36:30):
Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I can say a lot
about that.
One thing I would just saywould be this material is great
to look at together with peoplewho are Christian workers,
clergy but to be honest, I thinkwe need to talk about it not
(36:54):
just as a person who's in theclergy, but actually as the
community.
So for the eldership or theparish council or just the other
people appreciate what's itlike for these people who we're
(37:16):
looking to lead us.
I think there's something aboutjust the appreciation or
listening to one another aboutone another's experience in the
community.
I think that's really important.
But the first thing that I wantto probably think about is
looking at well, what are someof my biggest demands?
Like, there's a whole lot ofthings in the research here, but
(37:40):
what's some of the biggest onesfor me?
And I would just start with abit of problem focus coping
there, what can we do to takesome action on that?
What would be some resourcesthat could help us cope with
that, or to help us change that,or to help us get rid of that
or to help us?
So I would say, what's some jobresources that could help me
(38:04):
deal with my job demands?
I'd certainly also want to bethinking about my own spiritual
life and trying to work out whatis it that God is asking of me,
what is he not asking of me,what are my core convictions or
(38:26):
callings, and where am Iactually?
Have I been pulled away fromthose when I'm trying to do
other things that maybe areinappropriate?
So I would certainly want tostart with having a good, clear
idea about what is my particularareas of pressure and what
(38:50):
could we start to do about thatas a community.
So I said the word looking forresources to help, but I really
think within the community,that's where I think we need to
discuss that together.
So one thing is actually forsomeone to try to share that
with a warden or an elder or theelderships.
(39:14):
I definitely want to saysomething about that, to give a
bit of the reality of what'sgoing on so that people
understand.
Valerie Ling (39:20):
Yeah, have you got any positive examples where
that's being worked out in thecontext of someone who's burnt
out lonely?
High conflict in the church?
Dr Grant Bickerton (39:35):
Have you seen some encouraging I have and
I have actually and that'ssometimes what I mean by there's
a bit of a complicit I could becomplicit with what's going on
around me.
There's often my own fear offailure, my own desire to be
approved of my own interest, tonot be rejected or to have me
(39:59):
live up to my own unrelentingstandards.
Yeah, all of that stuffprevents me from saying you know
what?
I don't think I can keepworking 64 hours a week, and so
I have seen some positive thingsaround that when the community
(40:21):
has an understanding of thatperson's current experience.
But that can be difficult.
I'm not saying it always works,but I actually have seen that
work.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (40:38):
And is there a difference in terms of how long
you've stayed in the conflict,like you were saying that you
find that the two-year mark is agood one?
Is there something that maybejust routinely we preempt by
going, you know, your first twoyears in the role.
Let's keep in close contact,close communication, close
perspective trading betweenyourself and your parish council
(41:01):
, or yourself and yourcongregation.
Dr Grant Bickerton (41:06):
Yeah, that's a good point, Valerie.
Yeah, what I like about thetwo-year mark is that it's done
(41:26):
then with someone who's externalto their everyday environment.
So sometimes within a teamwhere there's a lot of constant
monitoring, it can kind of losea bit of its.
(41:46):
It's almost like the watertemperature is rising but the
frog's still saying, you know, Ifeel fine, and maybe every six
months, and that's why it'shelping to have a little bit of
(42:10):
an external person as well.
So to have someone likeyourself or your practice, have
someone check in and go throughsome kind of key questions and
even the odd ticker box thingthat can just take a bit of the
pulse, that could be helpful.
I think what is really helpfultoo in terms of that within the
(42:32):
team is just having somethinglike a clear personal
development plan or a self-careplan and a clear job description
that has my particular focus orfocus that I can Now.
That could be good to measureevery couple of months.
Valerie Ling (42:54):
It's not Be a part of it.
Who defines that?
Dr Grant Bickerton (42:59):
I think that's got to be defined by both
and it depends upon seniority.
So in the team context, that'swhat I would say.
So if I'm brand new into a role, then yeah, I'm going to be
doing lots of different things.
I might not have as much of asay in my role because I'm new
and I'm learning, I'm trying.
But same with a personaldevelopment plan.
(43:19):
I think there's got to be aconversation that has to happen
about that.
But I would say that kind oflike a personal development or a
self-care plan combined with abit of my role focus.
I think there's some thingsthat do go well in a team
context that can be touched onregularly.
(43:42):
Some of the more kind ofpsychological stuff yeah, I just
don't want people to get tooused to it, if you know what I
mean.
Yeah, just some thoughts.
Yeah, I don't know if it'sright.
Valerie Ling (43:58):
I don't mean either.
This is why we I think we'vegot a labor together.
I think you're right, it's as acommunity, isn't it?
So I mean, some of the positiveexamples we've seen is
certainly where a congregationand their ministry staff have a
lot more personal connection aswell, not just with the role.
They're doing things together,just building their friendships
(44:25):
and taking the time tounderstand the family situation
as well, allaying some of thestress and the threat and the
fears that are, you know, mykids.
They're not going to sit stillin church and congregation
members just coming around thatand going mind didn't either.
(44:45):
You know, just reallynormalizing that.
And then it's almost likeyou've got personality qualities
that we want in our ministryleaders.
It's also, then, having thosequalities in people in the
church, you know, being reallyopen, being curious, being, you
(45:06):
know, being looking to see howthey can create some out of the
box solutions, maybe letting goa little bit of what the last
minister did it this way.
Or you know, we really likehaving it done this way to kind
of have a conversation of not somuch that this is going to
change our church, but because Iknow you and I know your family
and I'm understanding that youguys have, you know, this unique
(45:30):
history or situation.
Let's have a look and see whatwe can, sort of you know, figure
out around you as well.
Dr Grant Bickerton (45:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely Like that
would be.
That's the idea, you know,where there's a genuine
genuineness on both sides.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Valerie Ling (45:54):
And I think we've also seen it really work when
churches work together in aseasonal approach as well, that
what's happening now in theministry family's life you know
can change in the next fewmonths or the next six months,
you know, as their kids change,or that you know you have aging
parents or health and thingslike that and kind of relaxing
(46:16):
into a rhythm as well, that thismight be okay for now or this
might be really difficult fornow.
We might be able to sort ofhave a conversation a couple of
months down the line or let'sjust try this for now.
Dr Grant Bickerton (46:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (46:33):
Yeah.
Dr Grant Bickerton (46:34):
Again, I think that's excellent and it's
that engagement together, likeas a body.
You know we're a body and we'vegot to play our roles and just
needing to do that together isreally important.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (46:54):
I'm really keen to ask you one more bit about the
research because you and I wentback and forth.
I really appreciate it.
You're stretching me inthinking about my questions.
But you know some of thedestructive leadership behaviors
which I've basically said.
I pulled out a couple ofquestions from the literature
that that was more aboutforceful and inappropriate
(47:14):
leadership, not narcissisticpersonality disorder, not toxic
or abusive.
But you know ministers beingasked, you know if you were on
us in the last 12 months, youknow, did you use a kind of
blaming, punitive, forceful typeof leadership and that
relationship with burnout?
Either way, obviously you couldbe tired and burnt out and use
(47:35):
these behaviors or use thesebehaviors and then, as a result,
the consequences that you know,you create mess for yourself
and you get tired.
What do you think about that?
Dr Grant Bickerton (47:45):
Yeah, I think both of them are true 100
percent.
100 percent Because usuallythere's a dynamic between
leaders and a team where whereyou know if we're the
transformational lead, even ifwe're the transformational
leader, you know we're workingtogether looking for a common
(48:06):
goal.
I'm playing a role as a leader,but it's that role of playing
together to get to our commongoal.
That's the ideal.
But even there, if I'm playingmy role as a leader, I'm really
trying to serve the team to helpus get to our common goal.
But if I perceive that peoplethat I'm trying to serve are not
(48:30):
empowering my leadership, it'spretty easy for me to stop
serving and start demanding.
And if someone who, if I'mtrying to empower someone's
leadership and I perceive thatthey've stopped serving, they've
started demanding, I'm going tostop empowering your leadership
.
So I think there's a, there's acycle there.
(48:54):
It's not so much empowering theleader empowering the team.
Actually it's the opposite.
As a team member, I need toempower my leader to enable them
to do their role to help us getto our common goals.
Where I perceive that they'restopping to serve me to get us
(49:14):
to a common goal, I don't meanserve me, as in that, but the
leader's got to be actually yeah, I'm, I'm serving us in our
role.
To get there, I will stopempowering them.
And vice versa, if I perceiveas a leader someone who's not
empowering my leadership, I willstop serving and I'll start
demanding.
So that can come from thedynamic or it can just come.
(49:36):
I'm too tired to go through allthis.
You always do this.
You need a blah, blah, blahbecause my, I just don't have
the energy anymore.
Valerie Ling (49:51):
Yeah, I mean you and I are talking.
I mean I would love to ask youdo you have like a concrete
example of that first one, whereyou know you said that
transformational leadership isabout the follower empowering
the leader.
What does that look like?
Dr Grant Bickerton (50:05):
Oh, it means that means that I'm going to.
I recognize that we areactually all together moving
towards our common goal, and andand as we're doing that, each
of us have different roles toplay.
As Romans 12 says, if he giveshis leadership, then lead, and
so so, if, if someone has therole of the leader, I need to
(50:28):
actually accept their leadershipover me.
Now, what does that look like?
Well, it means I'm going toallow them to make the odd call
that I might not agree with.
It means it means that I'mgoing to.
Actually, if they set aboundary about what's
appropriate, what's notappropriate, in order to move
forward, I'm going to be willingto work within that.
(50:49):
I'm not going to be a, you know, I'll just agree with
everything.
But there's something about me.
I need to accept someone'sleadership.
You can't force someone tofollow you.
You could force them to comply,but you can't force them to
genuinely follow.
And so, same with me, I mustaccept someone's leadership.
(51:13):
If we're going to cooperatetogether in a really significant
manner, I must accept theirleadership.
You think about a, an orchestra, where there's a conductor up
the front.
They've got a job to do and andme playing the.
Whatever you know I've got toaccept their leadership and even
(51:37):
if I think I should be playinga lead break here on my violin.
Valerie Ling (51:44):
So there's a boundary to that.
Is there the grant?
Yeah?
Dr Grant Bickerton (51:47):
absolutely.
Valerie Ling (51:47):
I'm not saying this is a willing willing
willing, willing followership isnot necessarily blind
followership, so clearly yeah infact, absolutely not,
absolutely not.
Dr Grant Bickerton (52:00):
You need people to speak up, because in
the room, one of us is nevergoing to be the be smarter than
everyone, so we need to.
We need people to speak up andand we, we now we're getting
into issues of how does it, howdoes a team make decisions?
When do we have collaborativeleadership, decision making?
(52:22):
When do we have consensus?
When do we have just one put?
We're moving more to thatdiscussion now, but all I'm
trying to say is that then ateam needs to accept their
leader If the leader is going todo the role and if, if I feel
like my leadership is notaccepted, I will end up forcing
(52:42):
and looking for compliance, andthat is not going to be a
transformational experience.
We're going to move towardsmaybe some of these more
destructive means.
Yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (52:54):
To finish up, three questions.
Grant, if there is a pastorlistening to our conversation
and there's just one thing theycan walk away with, one thing to
make the difference what wouldyou want them to know or do or
think about?
Dr Grant Bickerton (53:14):
I would really want them to focus on
their identity in Christ.
I would just want to say thatyou are much more than your work
role.
You're an image bearer of thedivine.
(53:35):
If the Father would say overyou, in Christ, you are my child
, you are my love.
With you, I'm well pleased.
If you're really exhausted, youmight need to hear the words
that Jesus said to his discipleswhen they came back from their
first missionary journey.
(53:55):
He said to them come with me byyourself to a quiet place and
get some rest.
I really need to rest first andthen attune to the Lord Jesus.
I don't mean that, you know,like you go up on a mountainside
(54:17):
and come down.
I mean in community.
They're the first two things Iwould say.
Think about your identity, notjust your work role.
You're different.
Meaningful work is important.
Meaningful ministry isimportant.
You're more than that.
You're an image bearer of thedivine Through the Holy Spirit.
(54:42):
Is that work act?
I would say that, and then I'dsay also, just a batch To come
back and listen to the LordJesus.
I fresh, take some time toreplace your energy to do that.
The other thing I want to say toyou is this Thank you, thank
(55:02):
you, thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you.
Because of what you're doing,you've transformed lives like
mine.
You've changed my life has beenchanged because of people like
you who are laboring in church.
(55:22):
Thank you.
Not only thank you for me, butI thank you for my spouse I
relate to very differently thanI would Thank you also for my
kids, and that their lives aretotally different because of
your work.
In my life.
Your role is incrediblysignificant, incredibly
(55:46):
significant, and so I reallywant to applaud you.
As one, timothy says, you areworthy of double honor, and I
really, I really mean that whatyou're doing.
I know sometimes we can saythings like what impact am I
really having here?
But in 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80,90, 100 years time, there will
(56:14):
be a legacy.
There'll be legacy inindividuals, families and
generations, but you probablywon't even know about.
But it is happening, and so Ijust really want to say thank
you for your role.
Valerie Ling (56:29):
Grant, and if there was a church that was
listening to us and they walkedaway?
What is one thing you wouldwant them to think or do or act
on after listening to us?
Dr Grant Bickerton (56:43):
Really seek to understand your ministry
worker.
Understand, seek to understandnot just conflict with
Understand.
Give them the gift of themknowing you understand what
(57:08):
they're going through, the giftof understanding.
Before we can help someone,they need to know we understand
them.
And so I'd say, before beforemaking big policy changes or
saying, hey look, I got an idea,let's take your preaching off
your plate for the next sixweeks.
(57:29):
What do you need that?
Understand, try to understandand stick with that.
Be curious, ask questions untilthat person can say of you yes,
you get me.
Valerie Ling (57:46):
And finally, grant , if we, if someone who's at the
policy making denominationlevel, listening in to us, sort
of really thinking about, from asystems point of view, what's
one thing you'd like them towalk away with.
If I'm, that harder.
Dr Grant Bickerton (58:06):
I would.
I would say, to ask your peoplewhat would help them.
So so I have seen, I'd say,what would help them.
And, and because sometimes we,we and I do it, I'm in
(58:32):
headquarters of our organization, I roll out these initiatives
and they're great, no one takesthem up.
So so I would say we need toask what will help them.
And, and I'd say in the there'sgoing to be three areas.
(58:53):
I would ask what can we do tohelp you to see progress in your
ministry?
What?
What online progress in yourministry?
What can we do to make thathappen, not hinder you from
doing that?
So that's one thing.
What would help you to seebottom line progress?
(59:15):
What could we do?
The second thing I'd ask iswhat can we do to have you be
fed spiritually, because we giveout when we're in Christian
ministry and it can be hard toreceive, to be ministered to.
Is that spiritual direction?
(59:36):
Is that you know someconferences, key conferences
that people are.
So, one, what can help you seeprogress in your ministry?
Two, what will feed youspiritually?
And then, three, I would askthe question what's your biggest
(01:00:00):
strain, what's the biggeststress in your life?
And I'm asking that question sothat I can think about how can
we actually relieve that in someway.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's three things.
Valerie Ling (01:00:16):
Well, Grant, it's been wonderful.
I've really thoroughly enjoyedour conversation and I'm so
grateful for your time.
Thank you so much, Grant,Thanks.
Dr Grant Bickerton (01:00:27):
Valerie, always love it to see you yeah.
Welcome to Dr Grant Bickerton.
Hi Grant.
Dr Grant Bickerton (00:08):
Hi, Valerie, good to see you.
Valerie Ling (00:09):
Good to see you.
It's been 10 years, this iswhat I figured out 10 years
since we have met one another.
Wow, yeah, 10 years.
Could you tell us a little bitabout you, your role and where
you are?
Dr Grant Bickerton (00:26):
Yeah, yes, I serve with a Christian mission
organization called Power toChange, formerly known as Campus
Crusade for Christ, and my rolewith them is particularly
around the development and thewell-being of our missionaries.
But my background is as apsychologist and, yeah, I spent
(00:49):
some time doing my PhD researchlooking into particularly what
role does organizational,psychological and spiritual
factors play in the well-beingof Christian workers so clergy,
missionaries, chaplains, youthworkers, all that kind of stuff
and so that's been a real loveof mine over the past 10 years,
(01:14):
for sure, looking to explore howdo we think about that and how
can we promote that amongstpeople.
Valerie Ling (01:22):
Yeah, so years ago .
What got you into doing thatresearch?
Dr Grant Bickerton (01:28):
Yeah, so I've actually been serving with
Power to Change all time since1999.
But very early on I saw peoplein ministry, not just Power to
Change, friends in clergy,ministry, people overseas.
I saw people not doing verywell over time, not doing very
(01:53):
well psychologically, not doingvery well spiritually, and when
people would leave they wouldleave very badly.
And so my real interest was notjust being involved in ministry
myself, but how do we encourageone another to prevent us
falling back in to struggling?
(02:14):
So it was actually just seeingpeople struggling is what got me
interested in that for sure.
Valerie Ling (02:22):
And 10 years on Grant, do you think the
landscape has shifted?
Similar issues different issues.
Dr Grant Bickerton (02:29):
Yeah, the landscape certainly has shifted.
We've had a pandemic that'scaused changes.
Things are changing all thetime, I think For the better or
worse.
There's just so many differentfactors in play.
Our culture is changing, howChristian workers are perceived
(02:52):
I think that has changed over 10, 15 years.
For sure it's changed thedynamic.
It's changed how people mightlook at a person or see them or
evaluate them.
I think there's a much greaterrecognition of struggle and what
impact that has on things.
With the COVID pandemic,there's a whole lot of change
(03:16):
there which brought about awhole lot of loss and a whole
lot of grief.
And have we recovered from that?
I'm not sure.
All kinds of things actually, Ithink, have changed, valerie,
but yeah, I don't know if I'dsay for the better or worse.
Actually there's just lots ofdifferent things going on.
Valerie Ling (03:32):
Now you mentioned the grief and the loss.
What do you see?
What is the grief and loss?
Where is it coming from?
Dr Grant Bickerton (03:43):
Well, I think grief in ministry is a big
deal actually and not wellappreciated For me.
Every time there's a change,even a positive change, there's
likely going to be some loss,and wherever there's loss
there's going to be grief.
But often maybe we don't thinkabout it like that.
(04:04):
So I think there can be lots oflosses involved.
There might be losses in termsof relationships.
Things might change,relationships might change.
I might lose contact withpeople or the relationship.
I still have contacts, but it'snot the same as what it was
before.
There's grief involved withthat.
I think there can be griefinvolved with just am I going to
(04:25):
be OK?
Things are changing around me,maybe my work environment's
changed?
Am I going to be OK?
Or am I going to be safe?
Or will this be able to go on?
Or is this viable?
Will I be OK?
Maybe that's a bit of a loss ofsafety and security,
relationship safety and security.
Sometimes, particularly with apandemic, there can be a real
(04:47):
loss of competence.
I thought I was competent atthis role.
The role has changed or I'mbeing required to do different
things and all of a sudden Idon't feel competent anymore.
The old saying promoted to mylevel of incompetence.
Sometimes that occurs and well,there's a loss there, there's a
(05:08):
loss of competence, and that'sa very significant thing.
Sometimes there's losses interms of my mission and purpose.
Maybe I had a great desire todo X, but because of Y and Z,
things have changed and actuallyI'm no longer going to be able
(05:29):
to do X at all.
Well, there's a grief thereactually.
So grief can occur, I think, ina myriad of ways in ministry
that might not necessarily beeasily identified as that, those
losses they accumulate.
Valerie Ling (05:47):
And Grant, did you pick that up 10 years ago?
Was that something you lookedinto or has this been much more
emergent as you've interacted inthis space?
Dr Grant Bickerton (05:56):
It's much more emergent, definitely,
although in exploring withpeople where some of the
distress comes from, it usuallyis around some of those things.
An accumulation of these thingsover time can become really
quite wearing, so my energy canbe drained or eroded, yeah
(06:20):
because I think I wanted to askyou.
Valerie Ling (06:23):
10 years on, I see you really as having
kickstarted the conversationaround resilience in ministry,
well-being in ministry burnout.
And typically one sees burnoutas an occupational phenomenon,
being that we're not just sayingto the individual toughen up or
(06:44):
self-care or work on yourindividual factors.
It is the intersection, isn'tit?
When you think about yourresearch and the pandemic, grief
and loss issues, one almost canfeel like, well, what is there
to do?
It's a systems issue.
It's not like we can reversethe pandemic, it's not like we
(07:07):
can take away the stressors.
And if the individual ispossibly doing the best that
they can, how do we actuallyview that?
Do you know what I mean fromthe framework of an occupational
phenomenon?
Dr Grant Bickerton (07:23):
Great, it's a great question.
I would always say that I wouldsay burnout is a systemic issue
, but when I'm burning out, itfeels like a deeply personal
issue.
It's me I'm failing, I'm notgood enough, I'm not resilient
enough, or whatever the phraseis.
(07:44):
I really affirm what you'vesaid it is a system issue.
However, I am complicit with mysystem, and so there are
individual factors going on here, and so I think it's possible
to discuss and identify what arethe systemic issues and maybe
(08:07):
what are some resources thatcould enable us to engage on
that system level.
Now, that might involve in somesystemic change, and I think
that is possible because we'renot passive agents in our
environment.
We are active agents, and Iknow that can seem hard to hear
(08:31):
sometimes because it's like well, I don't lead a congregation of
200.
I've got 200 bosses, is how onemight feel, but I think we do
have agency to affect somechange.
That's one thing.
Then there are individualissues that can actually help
keep negative dynamics in place,and so we do need to have an
(08:54):
awareness of well, what role amI playing?
How am I complicit to this?
What are my own background orpersonal factors that might be
even exacerbating some of thenegative impacts of the
environment.
So one thing I'd say is I thinkwe can have a go at changing
the environment.
We're not totally passive, butthere are also individual issues
(09:16):
that we can explore as well.
So it's going to be both ofthose things is going to be
important.
I think very rarely is it allone or all the other.
However, some environments oneshould never have to be
resilient in, some environmentsare abusive and so in that
(09:41):
environment one needs to leave.
So there's a few ideas aroundthat issue about the systemic
versus the individual, and theinterplay is actually quite
important.
I must say.
Sometimes I've seenorganisations who in my
experience most organisationswant people to do well.
(10:01):
They really do.
Leaders often want their peopleto do well, but sometimes the
provision of resources is eithernot understood or I'm just too
exhausted to take up the extraopportunity when I really have
no energy, and even giving me apositive challenge that will
(10:26):
help and feel like a hindrancethat I just can't cope with.
So there's a lot of things, alot of moving parts in this
discussion.
I wish it was as simple as aone solution.
There's no silver bullet here.
We're complicated and we're indynamics that are very
(10:47):
complicated and the Christianministry environment is a
complicated area.
Valerie Ling (10:54):
Well, let's go through some of my findings and
see how it maps, or what youfound in your research, but also
in your practice, because youstill continue to practice as a
psychologist and you still arevery much seeing ministry
workers.
So about 35% of my sampleendorsed around 200 ministers
(11:16):
endorsed moderate to high levelsof burnout, as measured by my
questions.
Does that surprise you?
Dr Grant Bickerton (11:26):
No, so well, we've had this discussion
before.
The devil is in the details,with research and numbers, and
moderate to very high.
So a lot of it depends uponwhat measure we're using.
But that does not surprise me,apart from I thought it would be
(11:47):
even a little higher.
I thought it would be higheractually.
So clergy in general havehigher levels of burnout than
the average population, soChristian workers will have
elevated levels of burnout fullstop.
(12:07):
So it depends upon what's thegroup we're norming those
numbers on.
But Christian workers oftenhave higher levels of motivation
as well, and so the strain orthe stress from work usually is
higher for Christian workers,because it's so important and
(12:31):
because I'm so motivated to doit and it's infused with the
divine.
So, to be honest, this 35%surprise me no, apart from I
thought it might be a bit higher.
So I would probably say, yeah,that's probably my experience.
Valerie Ling (12:52):
Okay and about 35% seriously thought of leaving
the ministry in the last 12months.
Dr Grant Bickerton (12:59):
Yeah, I think that's definitely true.
I've heard of other researchfloating around that definitely,
post pandemic, one in threeclergy are seriously leaving
their role.
So I would.
That rings true to me, andthree reasons.
Valerie Ling (13:20):
My family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated.
Which were in the highest 70s,a percentage wise, because you
could endorse a few of these.
My family suffers, I feellonely and isolated.
Were in the high 70s and 49%indicated the immense stress of
the job.
Dr Grant Bickerton (13:41):
Yeah, I thought that was really
interesting.
I think people who go intoministry, there's a degree of
self-sacrifice to start with, sothe immense stress of the job
one might think, oh, that shouldhave been higher.
(14:03):
Oh, maybe, maybe not.
Maybe that's about expectations.
There is a expectation thatthis is going to be, that I
might suffer, or something likethat.
The 76%.
When I see my family suffering,that's a different motivational
(14:26):
pull then to change orsomething.
So I thought that wasinteresting and I would agree.
When push comes to shove, Imight get used to being in a
dynamic where I am, yeah, a bitof a self-sacrificial servant
(14:46):
and I can even have sometheological justification,
rightly or wrongly, for that.
But when I see my familysuffering, I often like to ask
people this question if youconsider your experience and
what your life is like servingJesus in your role, would you
(15:09):
wish that for one of your mostloved family members?
And if I can't say yes, there'san issue there.
What I'm trying to pull on is abit of this issue.
Yeah, that people who I love.
I would not wish to show onanyone, but I'll take this
myself and then that deserves anexplanation.
(15:32):
So what really jumped out at mewas that 76%.
That was very interesting forthese family suffers and I would
agree.
I think that's a powerfulmotivator.
Yeah, you lonely and isolated.
That is absolutely 100% true,particularly when you're talking
about your sample, which isheavily skewed from males older
(15:58):
males, definitely I would thinkthat's a big issue.
That's a big issue full stop.
What I was also interested inwith that statistic, though, is
that there's quite a largepercent I think was like 80% of
your sample was in multi-staffpositions.
(16:18):
Now I thought that wasinteresting.
So definitely that would betrue, for an individual in a
sole pastoral position makessense.
What I thought was interestingabout that was 75%.
Well, 80% of your sample wasactually in like a one to five
(16:38):
to more than 10 staff situation.
Good pickup Grant, now that'sinteresting.
Why is it that I can't speak tomy colleagues about feeling
isolated and alone?
I know that it can be true.
Sometimes, when I'm in ministry, I don't want to acknowledge to
(17:03):
my peers, particularly thosewho I work with, that I'm
thinking about leaving.
There's a whole lot of lettingpeople down, letting God down,
whatever.
I just thought that wasinteresting.
75%, so isolated, alone, that'swhat I think you're leaving,
and 80% of them, well, you knowwe haven't looked at that, but
(17:26):
80% of them are in teams.
So yeah, so those top threereasons I thought were
interesting and they kind ofmake sense.
I found them interesting, yeah.
Valerie Ling (17:44):
Did you pick up those dynamics in your
publications?
Dr Grant Bickerton (17:49):
Oh no, I know.
So I've measured lonelinessmyself.
But even talking to Christianworkers, I know, and in my
organization I do stayinginterviews for our missionaries.
I've been around for a while.
I do debriefs, I do exitinterviews and, yeah, there is
(18:14):
that sense within us of I don'twant to let my people down.
Have I talked to people aboutthis beforehand?
I used to find out all thisinformation exit interviews.
I thought if only we'd knownthis earlier.
That's why now, after peoplehave been involved for two years
in our organization, we do astaying interview and basically
it's the same questions.
Don't tell anyone as the exitinterview, ooh a lot of podcasts
(18:38):
is gonna be broadcast.
But you find out this stuffearly.
Yeah what's the problem?
Oh, there's multiple factors.
There's gonna be factors aboutjob fit that's gonna be
important.
There'll be factors aboutrecovery and workload and
(18:58):
balance and that kind of thing.
There's gonna be stuff aboutirritations that are really now
staying to rub and form theblister.
There's gonna be stuff aboutlongevity issues, financial
viability and all manner ofthings.
You find out all manner ofthings.
My point is is that when peopleleave, they usually don't leave
(19:20):
for just one issue, probably afour, three or four or five.
But here's a chance to get abit of a pulse early about what
are some of the pressure pointsthat we could do something with
now, while there's still somemotivation and desire.
Valerie Ling (19:37):
Yeah, that's a great point, grant.
It makes me stop to think thatit also then depends on what you
measure or what you're asking,because if there are multiple
points, it's almost like you'vegot to be aware of what those
points are that are going toimpact.
So from your experience, justfrom asking those questions at
(20:01):
the two-year mark, justanecdotally, even, what would be
some of the common multiplereasons?
Dr Grant Bickerton (20:09):
Oh yeah, Well, it's probably at eight to
10.
And usually I think there'sgonna be some degree of
expectation, unmet expectations,the expectations for whether it
be more successful in ministrythan I am, expectations to have
(20:30):
seen more than I do,expectations to not do as much
admin as I'm doing.
So there's gonna be probablysome degree of unmet
expectations, either about myown ministry success or about
maybe my own spirituality orsomething my expectations.
There's probably gonna be somedegree of job misfit, because
(20:54):
there's so many things Christianworkers have to do.
You've got to be good at allthese different things, and some
of them we might be good at,and some of them that's what we
got in the ministry for.
But now I've also got tointervene with conflict and I've
also got to raise funds andI've also got to manage
volunteers.
I've also got to be acounsellor and I've also got to
(21:16):
be a great scholar.
Now, not all of those thingsare gonna fit me, and so how do
I figure out where the ones thatare draining me particularly
were, the ones that are actuallyI'm thriving in, and how do we
manage that?
There's gonna be some kind of ajob redesign.
Often there's ambiguity what amI meant to be doing?
(21:38):
I can feel like I'm never doingenough or I'm never good enough
, because how do I measure whatI'm doing?
How do I stop for a weekend ora day off if I feel like I don't
know if I've done enough thisweek?
So there's ambiguity.
We could go on.
All that's gonna lead toworkover mode probably.
(22:00):
But then the other thingsyou've mentioned isolation that
that can be there, that'sprobably gonna be there.
Just spiritual vitality Oftenwe can live 18 months off our
initial, so spiritual vitalityis gonna be in there.
There might be some financialconcerns.
There's a whole lot the changeof society, the change in roles.
(22:23):
There's a few of the ones thatoften do come up.
Valerie Ling (22:27):
Now, given that ministry personnel generally
don't have great levels ofself-awareness in general, if
you're asking these questions,are people able to answer with
self-awareness, or do you haveto know what to ask?
Dr Grant Bickerton (22:50):
I don't think the questions I ask are
particularly amazing.
I will ask questions like whatare some of the things you just
really love, what are some ofthe things you're really finding
difficult?
And then I think aboutdifferent categories of what you
might find difficult the actualrole, part of your role,
relationships, your own personallife, recovery, family.
So I'm not asking rocketscience, but questions.
(23:13):
But I find people are prettygood.
The reason why we do this aroundthe two year mark is that's
when you start to feel thehotspot.
You know, when you go for along run, if you're a long
runner not that I'm not, I am,but anyway.
So I'm told I've done a lot ofwalking maybe, but before you
(23:33):
get a blister, you'll get whatthey call a hotspot in the place
that we're walking Around thetwo year mark.
The initial shine has oftenworn off and, as you know, the
big issue with burnout is thechronicity of the exhaustion,
(23:58):
and so you can suck it up formaybe a year, pushing out to 18
months, but you're probablygonna start to see some hotspots
arrive then.
So by the time we're startingto ask these questions with a
little bit of probing, peopleare aware that they're
struggling and if there's arelationship of trust or
(24:20):
security, people are alreadyquite open.
Valerie Ling (24:25):
Yeah, Well now, interesting that you say there's
a relationship of trust andsecurity.
If I jump to the personalviolence questions that I asked,
really interesting In the last12 months the level of offensive
behaviour experienced by youpersonally.
Now again, I can't reallydefine this.
It's a little bit like a testof projection.
It's how you interpret it andyou can endorse more than one as
(24:51):
well.
So you can see that some reallysad things you know threats of
violence, sexual harassment,physical violence, you know was
endorsed, and then we've gotfeeling bullied, being subject
to unpleasant teasing, conflictsand quarrels, gossip and
slander.
What did you tell me when yousaw that?
Well, the conflicts andquarrels that makes total sense.
Dr Grant Bickerton (25:17):
I haven't thought much about gossip and
slander, but that's high.
I thought that was high.
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
?
But I think that's a good point?
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
that's high?
And again, what are peoplemeaning when they're saying that
(25:38):
?
Yeah, I'm not surprised at that.
In fact, I wouldn't have beensurprised if that was even a
little bit higher, because oftenwhen people are involved in
conflicts and quarrelsparticularly when it depends
upon the church but there is ait depends on the determination,
(26:03):
but there's a point ofvulnerability.
If I am quarreling withinfluential parishioners, to be
honest, there's a point of realvulnerability and I can feel
bullied in a conflict.
So I was interested by that.
I thought that might have beena bit higher, but I was
(26:26):
interested as well in terms oflooking at the correlations, how
conflicts and quarrels had moreof a drain than bullying.
Now, that really surprised me.
So again, I'm just thinkingwell, what is going on there?
But it does go to the point ofwhat are we doing with conflict?
(26:48):
How do we disagree well andremain unified rather than
seeing, unless we agree 100%about things, we need to be in
this protracted conflict.
So I think the way we thinkabout conflict, I think that's
(27:10):
an area that really deserves alot more work.
I think about John Gottman andhis work or approach with
conflict in a marital state andI think that has a lot of legs
for Christian workers actually.
Valerie Ling (27:29):
Yeah, I agree, as a business we're really turning
our eye to the psychosocialhazards of a workplace because
we've got legislation.
And I was struck by how much ofthis dynamic, the constant
conflict, feeling like you'regoing to workplace where maybe
(27:49):
you're not liked, people don'tagree with you, that people are
going to say stuff about you andyour family From a psychosocial
hazard as an employer, knowingwhat's going on in your
workplace, that if someone isturning up to that every day,
that's just going to build upbecause your livelihood is tied
(28:11):
to it.
And in ministry, your sense ofcalling conviction, your love
for Jesus and knowing theconsequence of what happens when
people don't know Jesus, youkind of get a sense of you're
trapped, like how do you get outof this space?
And maybe an assumption thatbut this is, I often hear this.
(28:35):
But isn't this what ministry ismeant to be all about?
It's a tough gig, right?
Nobody signed up for an easyjob.
You're always going to haveconflict and yet I can see from
the standards in the workplacewe wouldn't say that.
Dr Grant Bickerton (28:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
And that's when you get intothe zone of post traumatic
stress symptomology.
Whatever you want, I'm not notwounded, I agree with you.
No, that's not the diagnosisand stuff, but just trying to
say there's symptomology therewhere I'm learning and you know,
(29:18):
I'm learning that this is not asafe place and I'm helpless.
Valerie Ling (29:23):
Yeah, and you talked about the cognitive
deficits.
If we kind of, you know, lookat the whole picture and it's
nice to be able to bounce thiswith a fellow psychologist,
because this has probably beenon my heart for a long time is,
you know, when you talk aboutthe cognitive deficits, this
level of chronic stress, thislevel of toxicity and conflict
rejection that you feel, youknow, lack of safety, plus the
(29:49):
pandemic, you know it will eatinto those resources.
You're from a psychologicalhealth, but just from you know
how much your own body and mindcan cope with you know.
So I'm looking at this becauseyou know you.
I think I told you this, butthis was my last minute question
(30:11):
that I threw in.
I was like, hey, let's just seeif you know some of what I'm
seeing.
Walk into our clinic door.
What's?
Whether people will endorsethese items.
I'm really concerned.
And at which point do we saythis is normal ministry conflict
, do you know?
Dr Grant Bickerton (30:30):
great, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I think also because, because,because, like, like, a therapist
(30:50):
will certainly have a skewedperspective because of, well,
who is a therapist?
See people who are struggling,and so obviously that that's
true.
But, yes, the the, the ideaabout that, this is what this is
what should be expected inministry.
(31:12):
I'm just not, I'm just not verysatisfied with that.
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I don't likethe sound of that.
Like I can appreciate wheresome people might coming from,
for that I just the damage thatit does to people and then to
their families and then to thechildren of those families, I
(31:36):
really I just find that verydistressing.
Yes, so so we're talking hereprobably about the difference
between conflict versus bullying, workplace in civility area,
and I think that's that wholeworkplace in civility literature
(31:59):
would be helpful to look at interms of what is acceptable,
what isn't acceptable.
And hey, you know, let's faceit, I know there's legislation,
legislation, legislation outthere about bullying and stuff.
But you know, companies outsideof the church not like, they're
doing great here, but butthere's something about inside
(32:24):
the church where our views areturbo charged with our spiritual
convictions.
They can just leave peopleactually forgetting to behave
like the person who founded ourfaith in the first place.
Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I'm justglad to go on here.
Valerie Ling (32:46):
No, I think that's interesting what you said about
workplace in civility.
Again, as an employer, I'mreflecting because we're going
through our work health safetyprocedures and going through our
handbooks and the number oftimes we've had to update it
grant to stay not just relevantto legislation.
But you know new things happenin the world, like new kinds of
(33:08):
unkindness in the world, likewe've got to be aware of.
You know what's appropriate andinappropriate to put into
social media interactions withone another as staff.
You know what is appropriate interms of what is a fatigue,
what?
How do you define fatigue inthe workplace?
You know like it's not just assimple as your workload, but
(33:31):
there's all these other thingsdemand, pace, decision making,
the amount of responsibility youhave, the risk that you hold in
a job as well.
Right, and we've just been goingthrough our own fan book and to
some extent it does define tous what, what, what is
considered professional conductand also what is considered
(33:54):
conduct that keeps yourself andyour workmates safe, not just
the heavy lifting things or youknow whether or not you're using
equipment unsafely, butworkplace dynamics.
You know what is actuallyconsidered appropriate and
inappropriate and havingconstant conversations about
(34:16):
what is appropriate andinappropriate in the workplace,
and I wonder whether that's partof the confusion in churches.
Because what you know, we knowwe're meant to love one another.
We know we're meant to serveone another, we know we're meant
to be other person centered,but how do we then know when
(34:37):
we're just being selfish ordemanding or even threatened
about our own position?
Do you know like I feel sostrongly about this and you
don't, and one of us is wrong,and I know it's not me and I'm
willing to put a gospel stake onthat.
Dr Grant Bickerton (35:00):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Yeah, and I think thedifficulty, another difficulty
is with the dynamic is that when, when people, when I go to
church, I don't go to church asit's my workplace, now for my,
my, my, minister, it is theirworkplace but it's not my
(35:21):
workplace, and so they can belike a bit of a disconnect from
the community about what is thisplace.
Valerie Ling (35:28):
Yeah, what are.
Dr Grant Bickerton (35:31):
I'm a little looser, maybe it's a little
more like my family, yeah, yeah.
So there can be a bit of thatkind of stuff too, playing in
like what's what?
How do I, how do I view whatI'm doing here?
I'm a Christian workerperspective it's my workplace,
(35:52):
others it's not, and that justadds to that in the complexity
of lines of authority andexpectations.
Valerie Ling (36:02):
And so if we look at the picture now, this happy
picture, loneliness, thinking,you know, worrying that my
family suffers, plus the workstress, and now this conflict,
the picture that I'm wonderingis how do you get yourself out
(36:23):
of that?
Or what resources you know fromyour model really speaks into
that space.
Dr Grant Bickerton (36:30):
Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I can say a lot
about that.
One thing I would just saywould be this material is great
to look at together with peoplewho are Christian workers,
clergy but to be honest, I thinkwe need to talk about it not
(36:54):
just as a person who's in theclergy, but actually as the
community.
So for the eldership or theparish council or just the other
people appreciate what's itlike for these people who we're
(37:16):
looking to lead us.
I think there's something aboutjust the appreciation or
listening to one another aboutone another's experience in the
community.
I think that's really important.
But the first thing that I wantto probably think about is
looking at well, what are someof my biggest demands?
Like, there's a whole lot ofthings in the research here, but
(37:40):
what's some of the biggest onesfor me?
And I would just start with abit of problem focus coping
there, what can we do to takesome action on that?
What would be some resourcesthat could help us cope with
that, or to help us change that,or to help us get rid of that
or to help us?
So I would say, what's some jobresources that could help me
(38:04):
deal with my job demands?
I'd certainly also want to bethinking about my own spiritual
life and trying to work out whatis it that God is asking of me,
what is he not asking of me,what are my core convictions or
(38:26):
callings, and where am Iactually?
Have I been pulled away fromthose when I'm trying to do
other things that maybe areinappropriate?
So I would certainly want tostart with having a good, clear
idea about what is my particularareas of pressure and what
(38:50):
could we start to do about thatas a community.
So I said the word looking forresources to help, but I really
think within the community,that's where I think we need to
discuss that together.
So one thing is actually forsomeone to try to share that
with a warden or an elder or theelderships.
(39:14):
I definitely want to saysomething about that, to give a
bit of the reality of what'sgoing on so that people
understand.
Valerie Ling (39:20):
Yeah, have you got any positive examples where
that's being worked out in thecontext of someone who's burnt
out lonely?
High conflict in the church?
Dr Grant Bickerton (39:35):
Have you seen some encouraging I have and
I have actually and that'ssometimes what I mean by there's
a bit of a complicit I could becomplicit with what's going on
around me.
There's often my own fear offailure, my own desire to be
approved of my own interest, tonot be rejected or to have me
(39:59):
live up to my own unrelentingstandards.
Yeah, all of that stuffprevents me from saying you know
what?
I don't think I can keepworking 64 hours a week, and so
I have seen some positive thingsaround that when the community
(40:21):
has an understanding of thatperson's current experience.
But that can be difficult.
I'm not saying it always works,but I actually have seen that
work.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (40:38):
And is there a difference in terms of how long
you've stayed in the conflict,like you were saying that you
find that the two-year mark is agood one?
Is there something that maybejust routinely we preempt by
going, you know, your first twoyears in the role.
Let's keep in close contact,close communication, close
perspective trading betweenyourself and your parish council
(41:01):
, or yourself and yourcongregation.
Dr Grant Bickerton (41:06):
Yeah, that's a good point, Valerie.
Yeah, what I like about thetwo-year mark is that it's done
(41:26):
then with someone who's externalto their everyday environment.
So sometimes within a teamwhere there's a lot of constant
monitoring, it can kind of losea bit of its.
(41:46):
It's almost like the watertemperature is rising but the
frog's still saying, you know, Ifeel fine, and maybe every six
months, and that's why it'shelping to have a little bit of
(42:10):
an external person as well.
So to have someone likeyourself or your practice, have
someone check in and go throughsome kind of key questions and
even the odd ticker box thingthat can just take a bit of the
pulse, that could be helpful.
I think what is really helpfultoo in terms of that within the
(42:32):
team is just having somethinglike a clear personal
development plan or a self-careplan and a clear job description
that has my particular focus orfocus that I can Now.
That could be good to measureevery couple of months.
Valerie Ling (42:54):
It's not Be a part of it.
Who defines that?
Dr Grant Bickerton (42:59):
I think that's got to be defined by both
and it depends upon seniority.
So in the team context, that'swhat I would say.
So if I'm brand new into a role, then yeah, I'm going to be
doing lots of different things.
I might not have as much of asay in my role because I'm new
and I'm learning, I'm trying.
But same with a personaldevelopment plan.
(43:19):
I think there's got to be aconversation that has to happen
about that.
But I would say that kind oflike a personal development or a
self-care plan combined with abit of my role focus.
I think there's some thingsthat do go well in a team
context that can be touched onregularly.
(43:42):
Some of the more kind ofpsychological stuff yeah, I just
don't want people to get tooused to it, if you know what I
mean.
Yeah, just some thoughts.
Yeah, I don't know if it'sright.
Valerie Ling (43:58):
I don't mean either.
This is why we I think we'vegot a labor together.
I think you're right, it's as acommunity, isn't it?
So I mean, some of the positiveexamples we've seen is
certainly where a congregationand their ministry staff have a
lot more personal connection aswell, not just with the role.
They're doing things together,just building their friendships
(44:25):
and taking the time tounderstand the family situation
as well, allaying some of thestress and the threat and the
fears that are, you know, mykids.
They're not going to sit stillin church and congregation
members just coming around thatand going mind didn't either.
(44:45):
You know, just reallynormalizing that.
And then it's almost likeyou've got personality qualities
that we want in our ministryleaders.
It's also, then, having thosequalities in people in the
church, you know, being reallyopen, being curious, being, you
(45:06):
know, being looking to see howthey can create some out of the
box solutions, maybe letting goa little bit of what the last
minister did it this way.
Or you know, we really likehaving it done this way to kind
of have a conversation of not somuch that this is going to
change our church, but because Iknow you and I know your family
and I'm understanding that youguys have, you know, this unique
(45:30):
history or situation.
Let's have a look and see whatwe can, sort of you know, figure
out around you as well.
Dr Grant Bickerton (45:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely Like that
would be.
That's the idea, you know,where there's a genuine
genuineness on both sides.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Valerie Ling (45:54):
And I think we've also seen it really work when
churches work together in aseasonal approach as well, that
what's happening now in theministry family's life you know
can change in the next fewmonths or the next six months,
you know, as their kids change,or that you know you have aging
parents or health and thingslike that and kind of relaxing
(46:16):
into a rhythm as well, that thismight be okay for now or this
might be really difficult fornow.
We might be able to sort ofhave a conversation a couple of
months down the line or let'sjust try this for now.
Dr Grant Bickerton (46:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (46:33):
Yeah.
Dr Grant Bickerton (46:34):
Again, I think that's excellent and it's
that engagement together, likeas a body.
You know we're a body and we'vegot to play our roles and just
needing to do that together isreally important.
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (46:54):
I'm really keen to ask you one more bit about the
research because you and I wentback and forth.
I really appreciate it.
You're stretching me inthinking about my questions.
But you know some of thedestructive leadership behaviors
which I've basically said.
I pulled out a couple ofquestions from the literature
that that was more aboutforceful and inappropriate
(47:14):
leadership, not narcissisticpersonality disorder, not toxic
or abusive.
But you know ministers beingasked, you know if you were on
us in the last 12 months, youknow, did you use a kind of
blaming, punitive, forceful typeof leadership and that
relationship with burnout?
Either way, obviously you couldbe tired and burnt out and use
(47:35):
these behaviors or use thesebehaviors and then, as a result,
the consequences that you know,you create mess for yourself
and you get tired.
What do you think about that?
Dr Grant Bickerton (47:45):
Yeah, I think both of them are true 100
percent.
100 percent Because usuallythere's a dynamic between
leaders and a team where whereyou know if we're the
transformational lead, even ifwe're the transformational
leader, you know we're workingtogether looking for a common
(48:06):
goal.
I'm playing a role as a leader,but it's that role of playing
together to get to our commongoal.
That's the ideal.
But even there, if I'm playingmy role as a leader, I'm really
trying to serve the team to helpus get to our common goal.
But if I perceive that peoplethat I'm trying to serve are not
(48:30):
empowering my leadership, it'spretty easy for me to stop
serving and start demanding.
And if someone who, if I'mtrying to empower someone's
leadership and I perceive thatthey've stopped serving, they've
started demanding, I'm going tostop empowering your leadership
.
So I think there's a, there's acycle there.
(48:54):
It's not so much empowering theleader empowering the team.
Actually it's the opposite.
As a team member, I need toempower my leader to enable them
to do their role to help us getto our common goals.
Where I perceive that they'restopping to serve me to get us
(49:14):
to a common goal, I don't meanserve me, as in that, but the
leader's got to be actually yeah, I'm, I'm serving us in our
role.
To get there, I will stopempowering them.
And vice versa, if I perceiveas a leader someone who's not
empowering my leadership, I willstop serving and I'll start
demanding.
So that can come from thedynamic or it can just come.
(49:36):
I'm too tired to go through allthis.
You always do this.
You need a blah, blah, blahbecause my, I just don't have
the energy anymore.
Valerie Ling (49:51):
Yeah, I mean you and I are talking.
I mean I would love to ask youdo you have like a concrete
example of that first one, whereyou know you said that
transformational leadership isabout the follower empowering
the leader.
What does that look like?
Dr Grant Bickerton (50:05):
Oh, it means that means that I'm going to.
I recognize that we areactually all together moving
towards our common goal, and andand as we're doing that, each
of us have different roles toplay.
As Romans 12 says, if he giveshis leadership, then lead, and
so so, if, if someone has therole of the leader, I need to
(50:28):
actually accept their leadershipover me.
Now, what does that look like?
Well, it means I'm going toallow them to make the odd call
that I might not agree with.
It means it means that I'mgoing to.
Actually, if they set aboundary about what's
appropriate, what's notappropriate, in order to move
forward, I'm going to be willingto work within that.
(50:49):
I'm not going to be a, you know, I'll just agree with
everything.
But there's something about me.
I need to accept someone'sleadership.
You can't force someone tofollow you.
You could force them to comply,but you can't force them to
genuinely follow.
And so, same with me, I mustaccept someone's leadership.
(51:13):
If we're going to cooperatetogether in a really significant
manner, I must accept theirleadership.
You think about a, an orchestra, where there's a conductor up
the front.
They've got a job to do and andme playing the.
Whatever you know I've got toaccept their leadership and even
(51:37):
if I think I should be playinga lead break here on my violin.
Valerie Ling (51:44):
So there's a boundary to that.
Is there the grant?
Yeah?
Dr Grant Bickerton (51:47):
absolutely.
Valerie Ling (51:47):
I'm not saying this is a willing willing
willing, willing followership isnot necessarily blind
followership, so clearly yeah infact, absolutely not,
absolutely not.
Dr Grant Bickerton (52:00):
You need people to speak up, because in
the room, one of us is nevergoing to be the be smarter than
everyone, so we need to.
We need people to speak up andand we, we now we're getting
into issues of how does it, howdoes a team make decisions?
When do we have collaborativeleadership, decision making?
(52:22):
When do we have consensus?
When do we have just one put?
We're moving more to thatdiscussion now, but all I'm
trying to say is that then ateam needs to accept their
leader If the leader is going todo the role and if, if I feel
like my leadership is notaccepted, I will end up forcing
(52:42):
and looking for compliance, andthat is not going to be a
transformational experience.
We're going to move towardsmaybe some of these more
destructive means.
Yeah, yeah.
Valerie Ling (52:54):
To finish up, three questions.
Grant, if there is a pastorlistening to our conversation
and there's just one thing theycan walk away with, one thing to
make the difference what wouldyou want them to know or do or
think about?
Dr Grant Bickerton (53:14):
I would really want them to focus on
their identity in Christ.
I would just want to say thatyou are much more than your work
role.
You're an image bearer of thedivine.
(53:35):
If the Father would say overyou, in Christ, you are my child
, you are my love.
With you, I'm well pleased.
If you're really exhausted, youmight need to hear the words
that Jesus said to his discipleswhen they came back from their
first missionary journey.
(53:55):
He said to them come with me byyourself to a quiet place and
get some rest.
I really need to rest first andthen attune to the Lord Jesus.
I don't mean that, you know,like you go up on a mountainside
(54:17):
and come down.
I mean in community.
They're the first two things Iwould say.
Think about your identity, notjust your work role.
You're different.
Meaningful work is important.
Meaningful ministry isimportant.
You're more than that.
You're an image bearer of thedivine Through the Holy Spirit.
(54:42):
Is that work act?
I would say that, and then I'dsay also, just a batch To come
back and listen to the LordJesus.
I fresh, take some time toreplace your energy to do that.
The other thing I want to say toyou is this Thank you, thank
(55:02):
you, thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you.
Because of what you're doing,you've transformed lives like
mine.
You've changed my life has beenchanged because of people like
you who are laboring in church.
(55:22):
Thank you.
Not only thank you for me, butI thank you for my spouse I
relate to very differently thanI would Thank you also for my
kids, and that their lives aretotally different because of
your work.
In my life.
Your role is incrediblysignificant, incredibly
(55:46):
significant, and so I reallywant to applaud you.
As one, timothy says, you areworthy of double honor, and I
really, I really mean that whatyou're doing.
I know sometimes we can saythings like what impact am I
really having here?
But in 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80,90, 100 years time, there will
(56:14):
be a legacy.
There'll be legacy inindividuals, families and
generations, but you probablywon't even know about.
But it is happening, and so Ijust really want to say thank
you for your role.
Valerie Ling (56:29):
Grant, and if there was a church that was
listening to us and they walkedaway?
What is one thing you wouldwant them to think or do or act
on after listening to us?
Dr Grant Bickerton (56:43):
Really seek to understand your ministry
worker.
Understand, seek to understandnot just conflict with
Understand.
Give them the gift of themknowing you understand what
(57:08):
they're going through, the giftof understanding.
Before we can help someone,they need to know we understand
them.
And so I'd say, before beforemaking big policy changes or
saying, hey look, I got an idea,let's take your preaching off
your plate for the next sixweeks.
(57:29):
What do you need that?
Understand, try to understandand stick with that.
Be curious, ask questions untilthat person can say of you yes,
you get me.
Valerie Ling (57:46):
And finally, grant , if we, if someone who's at the
policy making denominationlevel, listening in to us, sort
of really thinking about, from asystems point of view, what's
one thing you'd like them towalk away with.
If I'm, that harder.
Dr Grant Bickerton (58:06):
I would.
I would say, to ask your peoplewhat would help them.
So so I have seen, I'd say,what would help them.
And, and because sometimes we,we and I do it, I'm in
(58:32):
headquarters of our organization, I roll out these initiatives
and they're great, no one takesthem up.
So so I would say we need toask what will help them.
And, and I'd say in the there'sgoing to be three areas.
(58:53):
I would ask what can we do tohelp you to see progress in your
ministry?
What?
What online progress in yourministry?
What can we do to make thathappen, not hinder you from
doing that?
So that's one thing.
What would help you to seebottom line progress?
(59:15):
What could we do?
The second thing I'd ask iswhat can we do to have you be
fed spiritually, because we giveout when we're in Christian
ministry and it can be hard toreceive, to be ministered to.
Is that spiritual direction?
(59:36):
Is that you know someconferences, key conferences
that people are.
So, one, what can help you seeprogress in your ministry?
Two, what will feed youspiritually?
And then, three, I would askthe question what's your biggest
(01:00:00):
strain, what's the biggeststress in your life?
And I'm asking that question sothat I can think about how can
we actually relieve that in someway.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's three things.
Valerie Ling (01:00:16):
Well, Grant, it's been wonderful.
I've really thoroughly enjoyedour conversation and I'm so
grateful for your time.
Thank you so much, Grant,Thanks.
Dr Grant Bickerton (01:00:27):
Valerie, always love it to see you yeah.
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