The Trinity Network Story: Cultivating Connected Churches Paul and Sue Harrington

The Trinity Network has its origin at Trinity Church Adelaide, which was established in 1836 .  Paul and Sue Harrington share their story of 35 years in ministry with the network, which now consists of 14 churches across Adelaide and South Australia.

Dive into the Harringtons' candid thoughts about juggling ministry life and family, the connection that spouses need, and their reflections on the structures that help and hinder our churches, their leaders and their families from doing life and faith together.

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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Episode Transcript

Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.

(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
Greetings everybody to yetanother episode of our clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I have got Paul and SueHarrington with me on this
episode.
Hello, paul and Sue, good day,hi, it's great to be with you,

(00:49):
valerie.
Do you know, I haven't come upon my memories.
That is almost one year since Iwent to visit you in Adelaide.

Paul Harrington (01:00):
Now I was only having a visit and do a few
sessions for us over here.

Sue Harrington (01:04):
Yeah, so yeah, and it's been great getting to
know you.

Valerie Ling (01:08):
So I'd love for you to introduce yourselves
really a bit about your story ofministry and where you are now
and what you're doing.

Paul Harrington (01:19):
Sure.

Sue Harrington (01:21):
Okay, well, I became a Christian a week before
I started university.
I'd grown up in a sort of Godfearing family, but it was
really God helps them, it wasthemselves sort of thing.
But I had a few friends and ateacher, actually that that were
different.
So I became a Christian byGod's kindness and then, as I

(01:43):
said, never recovered and justseeing His kindness through
every stage of my life.
So we have three adult children, eight grandchildren, and just
really have just loved our timein ministry.

(02:05):
We both legal backgrounds,practice law a bit.
I've done a bit on the sideright the way through basically,
but mostly we've had our focuson ministry things and just so
thankful and grateful to havehad that privilege of being able
to do that for the last Atrinity.

(02:27):
Yeah, it's about 35 years yeaha trinity.
So that's where we went when wefirst became Christians, or very
, very soon after.
And so we tell them if we're nogood at your own fault, because
we're productive with theministry there.

Paul Harrington (02:43):
My story is very much the same.
We're actually going out.
Before others were Christians,so we kind of Christian.
Just before going to uni I wasalready at uni and then about
three or four months later, shetook me for a walk around
Adelaide University.
It was on about our secondcircuit that she burst into

(03:04):
tears on my shoulder and saidGod wanted her to break up with
me.
Now, at that point I didn'tthink God existed so I thought
that was a bit bizarre.
But what it did was ittriggered me to read the Bible
with a friend that I knew hadbecome a Christian at uni.
Over a period of months I wentfrom thinking Jesus Easter Bunny

(03:29):
Tooth Fairy to real person, andthen the gap was so.
So if he's real, whatdifference does it make?
You know, sort of historicalJesus to personal Lord was
really the jump point, became aChristian, and soon I didn't go
out for about six months afterthat.

(03:50):
We thought, at least I thoughtsmart for me to try and work out
which one was up as a Christianbefore, you know, launching
back into a relationship.
So we mutually thought that wassmart.
And then, yeah, and so going toTrinity, was I become a
Christian?
Effectively, on campus.
There were friends at uni whosaid said now, you're a

(04:14):
Christian, you ought to go tochurch.
And I thought, well, it soundsreasonable, you know, and so
they took, took me down toTrinity.
That was 1978.
And that's when we firststarted going to Trinity, and
both of us have just beenhanging around ever since.

Valerie Ling (04:30):
Yeah, that was about the Trinity network.

Paul Harrington (04:34):
Sure.
So when I joined the Trinitystaff team, it was one church in
the city, a church that had along evangelical tradition here
in Appalachia, anglican but in anon evangelical diocese, and so
a larger city church, about 800people.
And I joined as the look afterSunday school, high school and

(05:00):
the young adults group really.
So I did that for about fiveyears, although the role changed
a bit over that time.
Then the director left andbecame a bishop in Sydney and I
was asked to become the directorat that point that was 1993.
So at that stage, one churchthen, because we're essentially

(05:22):
full on that site.
The question we're asking washow do we keep reaching
unbelievers for Jesus?
And one possibility wasbuilding a bigger building, so I
could, you know, make morepeople because we'd reach
capacity.
Or the second was to thinkabout church planting, and the

(05:42):
planting idea appealed to usbecause it felt like we could
keep replicating communities,reaching out to others around
Adelaide.
So we planted our first churchin 2001 from the city and we're
now 14 churches across sort ofAdelaide and wider South

(06:03):
Australia with a desire just tokeep planting churches and what
we're doing is partneringtogether to try and reach our
city and state with the gospel.
That's where we're coming from.

Sue Harrington (06:16):
And I remember the very first, the first church
, and the commissioning, or thekickoff, you know, the launch
Sunday, and Paul said don'tthink you've made it.
This is, by God's kindness,we're here, but I'm praying now
for the church that you willplant and we've seen that happen
and that's what keeps happening, in God's kindness.

Paul Harrington (06:38):
So the church in 2001, planted a church in
2010 and further away from them,and then that church in 2010,.
There was planted in 2010,planted a church further away in
2015.
So we've always wanted to be anetwork where we planted
churches or planted churches, orplanted churches, and we're

(07:01):
seeing that happen.
There's been five churchesplanted from the larger city
church and then the rest of thechurches have been planted from
the daughter churches orgranddaughter churches.

Valerie Ling (07:14):
So almost 40 years as part of Trinity Network,
starting from being convertedall the way to now leadership.
What have you seen?
One of the well we met becauseI was at reach I think it was
reach we did something togetherand then I came to talk to your

(07:36):
leadership team about myobservations about burnout,
because your network is lookingto see how you can create
structures or build thingsaround your ministry teams In
the time that you've been inministry and in leadership.
What works well, how do we?

(07:57):
What have you seen as beingsome of the ingredients for
those of us in ministry tothrive?

Sue Harrington (08:05):
I guess we had the privilege of being mentored
by people at an early stage.
So Robert and Margaret Forsythewould often have us in their
home, and then Reg and DorothyPiper, when we were on staff
team, were very kind to us,having you know, just sort of
taking us by the hand.

(08:26):
So there is that sort ofculture that even before you
know we were on the staff teamthat we were the beneficiaries
of, and also I respect for theleaders and a mutual love and
care.
Paul often tells the staff whenthey come to Trinity that you
will be given respect.
You can lose it, but there isthat automatic respect for the

(08:50):
role and the, and I think thatthat becomes a mutual thing.

Paul Harrington (08:56):
I think Sue's right.
We were serving in ministry andwe've been here for a number of
decades but we stand on theshoulders of others who laid
really good platforms.
So I remember Reg Piper.
He brought me onto the staffteam.
We shared a back fence.
So often we'd walk in abouthalf hour walk into the Trinity

(09:18):
City Church and I'd pick hisbrain and he would sort me out
on things and there was a realfatherly relationship, I think,
where he clearly wanted me toflourish as a person in ministry
.
So we don't because we're firstgeneration believers.
We were.
We felt like we'd been makingeverything up as we go along and

(09:41):
the main way we've done that, Ithink, is by looking at people
in the next day John from us andtrying to learn from them.
So learning from the Piper's,for example, sharing a fence
with them, how they thoughtabout their marriage, how they
thought about opening their home, how they thought about their
race in their children.

(10:02):
We were able to learn a lot andobserve and just seeing.
I think Reg Piper was a leaderwho I never got the sense that
his role as the senior leader ofthe church had anything to do
with his own ego.
So he always had that clearintention of honouring God,

(10:24):
building up other people aroundhim, and I think that modelling
was very key for us as we moveforward.
Not just Reg.
We had excellent trustees andwardens and elder type people
who were part of that culture.
So it's been a privilege toserve in a church in our network

(10:45):
where the focus has been veryclearly established as we want
to glorify God, preach thegospel, see people become
Christians and not get toofussed about stuff that doesn't
matter and keep doing that.
So those sort of backgroundshave been really important for
us, I think.

Sue Harrington (11:03):
Yeah, yeah, and all of life, oh sorry, just yeah
, all of life too.
So absolutely key ministry, butalso character and then why you
do certain things.
So just sort of talking itthrough and that freedom really
to talk it through, and thenhonesty, yeah.

Valerie Ling (11:22):
And how are some of the ways you might have
infused your experiences intothe Trinity network structures
side of mentoring and being ableto pass on wisdom?
How's that work?

Paul Harrington (11:35):
Yeah, I think that I want to say that Sue has
been really critical in helpingin shaping actually the whole
network culture.
Just in thinking through how wewe functioned as a family of
leaders Family needs to be useda bit loosely, but that

(11:58):
collegial family warmth andrelating together as we share
life and ministry together Ithink particularly among staff
and the key elders, the trusteesand I think that Sue's had a
really critical Be worthwhile.
Talking about the way you'vegone about, thinking about why

(12:18):
yeah, yes, just that it is.

Sue Harrington (12:23):
It's a team thing that we, that we do, and
that that's important.
We're all heading in the samedirection.
Where the wise are so differentthe moment there's 28 past as
well.
So the important thing is wekeep saying, you know, being the
best you can be and with thegifts God's given you, the
opportunities to stage of life,and there's so many differences,

(12:43):
but just that sense of beingsold out for Jesus, being really
keen to serve God's people, tobuild up your spouse as well in
that and to minister within yourown family setting.
But that openness, one of thethings we do is try and over the
years initially it was just asmall group of pastors, wives,

(13:05):
and we'd meet once a fortnightand we'd pray and brainstorm
things.
Or if someone was giving a talk, then you know, use us as the
testing.
Or if there was an issue, wetalk through different things,
and that was nice to have thatconfidential sort of supportive
environment, the.
As we've grown bigger, we'vehad to change that a little bit

(13:26):
and so now there's fourdifferent groups that meet, but
once a year, for example, we allgo away for a few days and we
have a somewhere between a it'snot an amp and it's not a
retreat and it's not aconference, but somewhere in the
middle of that.
And the trustees have so kindlyunderwritten that because they
see the value of supportinghouseholds and so we go away, we

(13:49):
have some input, we have somefun time together, we pray
together, and so that's a goodbuilding time.
We really see the importance ofthe family.
So we want all the kids of thestaff to feel like isn't it
wonderful that we're involved inthat?
You know that our dads areinvolved in Trinity Ministry, or

(14:12):
our, or the rest of the family,or our mums we've got women on
the team as well, but we're sowe want them to feel that
they're.
It's a privilege and a joy.
And so we do try and do thingslike it.
For Christmas, they get ahelium balloon with it, you know
, stocking attached or somethingyou know, and just try.
And when they turn, whenthey're doing the year 12, they
get a year 12 survival packs.

(14:32):
So just different things.
Because the ministry, kids yeah, the ministry.

Paul Harrington (14:36):
The ministry team.
So who is that Me?

Sue Harrington (14:40):
So it's just kind of evolved, but we used to
have this massive end of yearthing at our house.
That was sort of like acarnival with all the stuff.
But now we've got actually toobig but we do different things,
like we have a high teeth, thestuff wise in the year and kick

(15:01):
off things and you know, get,maybe get a speaker across or
you know so different things totry and say, look, it matters,
we want to support each other.
We want to, you know, do thebest job we can with, which will
vary what, what you knowexactly how it will look in
every household but justsupporting, encourage each other
.

Valerie Ling (15:21):
So, considering both of you are first generation
Christians, how did you come upwith all these ideas?
What motivated that?

Paul Harrington (15:29):
Interesting really, because Sue, even our
first generation believer herfamily was incredibly hospitable
and culture of hospitality andopen it, which wasn't my family
background for a range ofdifferent reasons, but for Sue
it was and I think that thatensues very warm and relational.

(15:52):
So that's I'm not saying I'munrelational, but you know,
sue's very relational.
I think that's infused a lot ofthat household culture.
That's, and I think we've justwe just kept making up as we
went along trying to thinkthrough how do we keep growing a
connected staff, leadershipteam network of churches, all

(16:16):
with clear focus and goals, butenjoying the benefit of being
part of a Christian community onthe way through in different
levels?

Valerie Ling (16:28):
So I'm curious, with regards to the I love that
you've mentioned the kids withregards to the wives and the
kids and the families inministry, what would you say
have been the key ingredientsover the years that's helped
that sense of belonging andconnectedness to survive, even
though you've grown much bigger?

Paul Harrington (16:49):
No.
So I think as we when westarted off on the team and as
we kept going through differentstages, it's been interesting to
see that a lot of the and thisis the advantage of being sort
of a multi staff team there area lot of kids actually growing
up together and those kids hadpeer relationships, I think, and

(17:12):
family relationships.
We didn't live in each other'spockets because we didn't have
time, but nonetheless the kidscame through Sunday school and
high school groups and youngadult groups together and I
think that sense of being a partof those peer connected groups
was really important for them.
And I think in our own familySue worked very hard for our

(17:35):
kids to understand theprivileges of being in the
vocational ministry space.
So if I came during the day toone of the kids' sports days,
sue would make it a point ofsaying you know, dad can do this
because he's in ministry and hehas flexibility to come during

(17:56):
the day.
Lots of fathers can't do that.
Sue would often pick up on anumber of those things the fact
that there are lots of people inour churches praying for our
family and our kids quiteextraordinary that they've had
that.
Sometimes that attention can behard but generally it's.
Yeah, we were in a churchcommunity where they wanted our

(18:18):
kids to do well and they lovedthem and cared for them and I
think our kids grew up with thatsense of the value of being a
part of the church and a part ofministry family.
So I think our kids have grownup at different stages.
They probably had struggleswith it but at this stage they'd

(18:41):
all say it was a wonderfulthing to grow up in a ministry
family.
Now that's God's kindness.
But you know, we're verythankful for that.
We were always wanting andpraying that that would be the
case and I think that's it.
A lot of that, I think, wasshaped by Sue's very deliberate

(19:01):
ministry thinking, parenting,you know, going through.

Sue Harrington (19:06):
And both of us really just that sense of seeing
how, what you're saying, whatyou don't say to.
So we were careful what we saidaround the children when there
were issues, because just ageappropriate, so we didn't want
them to have a weight beyondtheir years.
Yes, I think that.

(19:26):
I think that's been important.
It really hasn't been.

Paul Harrington (19:29):
Being wise about what we drew them into in
terms of awareness of what wasgoing on, because there'll
always be issues orrelationships that come up and
the kids didn't need to know.
But we had this spot in ourfront veranda in our house which
was the sort of parent's zone.
So we go out there for a drink,a cup of coffee or whatever at

(19:52):
the end of the day and the kidswere sort of barred from going
out there and that was ourdebrief time on a whole lot of
things which we sought through,which I think has been really
important for us on the waythrough, to keep processing
stuff together, and normally wewould do that at least daily
really, as we've been along, butthat imparts the shape of our

(20:14):
relationship as well.

Sue Harrington (20:15):
Yeah, and I think that's right because we
can process together.
We're not using the kids toprocess and I guess that's just
encouraging in that way With thejust as far as a wider network
we both really want to try andmake a point of particularly if
my child of one of the staff isstruggling, so sometimes

(20:39):
struggling one way or another,either in their faith or
behaviour or whatever.
But we want to know we make areal effort, that they know they
are special, they are loved.
So it's not performance basedthose kids.
We really just want them not tofeel the pressure of having to
be perfect and they are going togo through.

(21:01):
Some kids are going to gothrough times where they
struggle and that that's part ofhopefully them growing.

Valerie Ling (21:07):
That sounds to me like at a network level, you've
been able to foster a sense ofbelonging that the leadership
tier, the ministers, spouses andkids really have a sense of a
belonging together throughwhatever rhythms and patterns
that you have.
So through the year you haveretreats, you have camps, you

(21:31):
have things specifically for theministry families.
Is that what I'm hearing?

Sue Harrington (21:38):
The retreat one was for the wives.
Yeah, you know that growing awife is for the wives.
I think each of the it's alittle bit different now that
we're bigger and things happenmore in the local church, but I
think that has been replicated.

Paul Harrington (21:53):
Yeah.
So at this stage, with 14churches, we're thinking that
the relational spans to do itall in one place are probably
too great and we'd be findingourselves spending the whole
time just with each other inorder to do that.
So when we get everyone togetherI think when you were with us

(22:16):
last year we had a big staffhouse dinner and I must admit,
when I get together with thatgroup I think I'd love to go
away and plant a church withthese guys.
Now, probably that isn't truebecause there'd be too many
cheese and non-Affinians, butnonetheless it's wonderful to

(22:36):
share life with those people.
But because of the size, whatwe've tried to do is to develop
that same level of familyconnection at the regional level
, and part of our task, I think,and our task at our stage of
ministry, is to invest a littlemore deliberately in some people
who will head up those regionalnetworks to help us retain the

(23:02):
relational sense of belonging inthe midst of a wider sense of
wanting to reach our city andstate with the gospel.
So just trying to but that'smore a structural approach as we
move forward and trying tothink what's smart, because at
the end of the day, we all havevarying and limited relational

(23:23):
capacities, and so you need toget that balance between the
people you work most closelywith and the wider church family
that you're ministeringalongside as well.

Valerie Ling (23:36):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.

(23:58):
I'm going to spend some timewith you in your home.
I know that both of you talkquite a lot about how to figure
out structures, how to figureout what is your latest thinking
about planting 14 churches,scale large populations now
within your church, as well asmanaging the resourcing, the

(24:22):
governance and the connectionsthat you all have with one
another.
What's the latest?

Paul Harrington (24:28):
Yeah, so the few things.
So we'll jump in on this as wellbut at the leadership level, I
think that, and grouping ofpeople into the regional areas,
with focus on those regionstogether, while still being part
of an overall network, is wherewe're heading at this point in

(24:49):
time.
What we want to do is make surewe don't set up a structure
that limits our ability to reachmore people with the gospel.
So sometimes organizationalstructures put in artificial
glass ceilings and you bounceoff them for no other reason
except you haven't thought yourway through them.
And one of the potential glassceilings for our network is

(25:09):
Suanola, that is, if everythinghas to come back through us, if
we're the sort of mum and dad ofthe network and all the kids
can only relate to each otherlike us, that's a glass ceiling.
So the ability to divest intoother key leaders and

(25:30):
organizational groups that helpus do the same thing, but with
the same values, is reallyimportant.
So that's what we're thinking.
So if you said to me what wouldI like to spend, say, 10 years
time, I'd be thinking probablydouble the number of churches
that we had, maybe 30 churches.
That will require rethinkingsome of our core support

(25:52):
structures.
Our goal is for churches to bereally the healthy core face of
what we do, and so we're happyto resource that, essentially
the things that will free upthose churches to do very
healthy ministry.
So that involves things likefinance, support, safe ministry,

(26:15):
arrangements that areessentially supported and
enabled yeah, that sort ofstructural stuff that actually
helps churches function well.
And then thinking through howour churches keep collaborating

(26:36):
in a wider sense, partneringtogether with that wider concern
for the gospel, and I thinkwe'll always be trying to work
that out.
I don't think we'll ever arriveat a solution, and I think
every stage of growth willpresent new challenges and
opportunities that you need tograpple with in order to be
healthy.
Moving forward so that's someof what we're thinking through,

(27:00):
I think.
The leadership pipeline, how wegrow deep disciples who step
into leadership but I thinkthat's a challenge for us moving
forward, yeah, and one we needto pay attention to.

Sue Harrington (27:12):
Yeah your thoughts.
Yeah, well, I think it is thatsense of always changing to meet
the next lot of challenges andto sustain sustainability but
also for care and health as well, but effectiveness as well.
So just that.
I remember one an old friend ofPaul said are you still Trinity

(27:33):
?
It wasn't originally that Ithought, yeah, but his job has
changed every year.
You know that sense of you knowneeding to keep do the next
thing, which has kept youinterested as well.
But that sense of and I thinkour structures have changed, so
they just keep adapting when weneed it.
Once, the other week, we had athe Northern region had a

(27:54):
celebration where they all gottogether and it was very it's
feasible for the Northern regionall to get together.
The place was packed andeverybody.
You know it was a celebrationand they launched you know
questions to ask you onChristian friends and then
they're going to all have ajoint sermon series.
That are some of these answersand it was a real sense of

(28:15):
celebration.
And then the churches got backtogether where they're all
planted off each other sort ofthing from each other.
So I think that idea of well,that that is workable.
I'd love to see everyone alltogether in a higher, you know.
And eventually said or whateverthat which would be great, a
great celebration, but actuallyprobably not nearly as effective

(28:38):
as that.
You know that region.
Because they've got therelational links, they'll have
the encouragement and then theycan do something together.
The youth too, you know tryingto, there's been.
You know youth groups.
Critical mass is important foryouth and so you know there's
some area youth working together, and then you know what is up

(28:58):
on some term now that every allthe youth in the network get
together.
So it's not just you knowwhat's happening in my little
church.
There's a bigger thinghappening and there's other
Christians outside.
You know mum and dad's church.

Valerie Ling (29:12):
But so much activity and being intentional
to keep the network functioningand connected, what do you use?
On the burnout piece, so youknow my survey predominantly
senior ministers.
You know a large percentage ofthem burning out, really
struggling to keep up with a lotof the demands that come with

(29:34):
the role.
How does that fit in yournetwork, do you think?
What do you see?

Paul Harrington (29:40):
Yep, so I think we're well.
I think we're like mostchurches, networks.
It's an issue that is real forus and part of it is, I think,
that we we generally have peopleon our staff teams who are very
self motivated, so they're notnatural boundary setters for

(30:01):
themselves, because they love tosee, you know, people's moving
forward for the glory of God.
So I think that that's one ofthe things we've become more
aware of in recent years.
That, over the period,highlighted some of that for us,
like it did for lots of people.
We were seeing more frayingoccur, you know, in terms of how

(30:25):
people were going and theirwell being.
So that's, I think, one of theareas that we've become more
alert to sooner, but also thewhole network, our board, in
thinking through what's going on, and so, for example, when you
were across I can't remember itwas 12 months ago when we got

(30:47):
together with the leaders, theyreally were concerned to
proactively think through how dowe help our staff in particular
, thinking that they will thenroll down the churches thinking
how do we help our staff in thatwell being space moving forward
?
What are the things we can dooverall, as a network, to make

(31:10):
that more likely?
How do we keep surveyingpatterns of our staff, their
households?
Hearing from you know wholehouseholds like wives and
children, not just staff membersor husbands of wives who are
working with us or whatever butthinking through how we take a

(31:32):
bit of a pulse check on that.
I think one of the things I'vebecome more aware of as time has
gone on is the critical natureof helping our staff to be self
aware and I yeah, if you'd askedme when I was recruiting 30

(31:53):
years ago, yeah, my top tips forrecruiting it wouldn't have
included self awareness.
But now I say to myself and Isay to people I think the first
thing I'm looking for when I'mrecruiting is someone who has
good self awareness, movingforward.
Because if they understandthemselves and they're secure in
their relationship with God andwhere God has made them, then

(32:16):
they're going to be much morecomfortable with working at how
they live in that space and howthey work collaboratively with
others, given their strengthsand otherwise.
So that's been helpful for me.
I have some strengths inministry but I have gaps and

(32:37):
being aware of my gaps helps mework out the implications for
other people around me.
It also helps me partner withother people who complement me
and I complement them as we moveforward together.
And I think that that, if itdoesn't mean you don't keep
growing and developing, but it'sa much healthier space to be

(32:57):
moving forward and I think thatself understanding, awareness,
not being preoccupied with self,but enough awareness there
really does help you flourish inthe space when you're in
ministry, I think.

Sue Harrington (33:12):
And I think that's one of the reasons why,
if you looked across the leadersat Trinity, we don't just have
one type of.
You know, often the churchplanter is the, you know,
perhaps one end of the extremeextrovert come entrepreneur.
But partly because we've gotthe support structure behind it,
you know they don't have to beable to do budgets and you know

(33:34):
whatever.
In quite the same way, but thewho does the budget suit the?
Well, I mean, the church doessome, but there's a lot central.
A lot of the, a lot of the adminis done centrally.
I mean the leadership teams putforward budgets, but the
bookkeeping and stuff is donecentrally.

(33:55):
So there's, you know, don'thave to be quite as much of a
jack of all trades as any other,I interrupt you.
Yeah, but the but what it meansis, as long as people realize
look, I'm not as strong on this,but they have other people on
their launch team that might bestrong on that then then it
doesn't matter if they're not,if they're not, you know, if

(34:17):
they don't have all the, all theareas of expertise and a
minister's never expected reallyto have all the areas of
expertise, but they do have aleadership responsibility to
make sure certain things arecovered.
So it's that, that wisdom.
I think that that's reallyimportant.

Valerie Ling (34:36):
So I must remember to come back to the network and
how it's structured.
But before that, how does thatlink the self awareness link to
what you were saying?
12 months ago you were, youknow, having a look at, you know
what was happening in thepandemic and burnout and keeping
a tab on whole households well,well being, and the awareness

(34:57):
fit into that.
So, on the one hand, trinitynetwork is being proactive.
What is it that you're seeing,then, in leaders that matches
onto that?

Paul Harrington (35:08):
Yeah, so I think the when they were in the
midst of the pandemic, theobservation I was making was
that the reaction of differentstaff members to an increased
stress and management issue andthe way they reacted to it was
very, very different.
I had some staff and it lookedto me like if every day they

(35:32):
woke up a pandemic.
I was saying I was born for aday like this.
You know, there was just thatsense of the challenge and the
opportunity.
There were, you know, newspaces and other people.
They woke up thinking when willthe pandemic end?
You know, because I'm going toget back to doing what I

(35:53):
normally do, and that seemed tome is your spectrum of
personality types.
Now, the risk with thepersonality type was I was born
for a day such as this.
They then tended to overreventhe space.
How do I adapt?
How do I do more?
We'll just start more services,because we can't.
We'll just run six services,not two.

(36:16):
It'll be fine, you know workingthat way and not counting some
of the cost of that.
Other people were saying, well,we can't do what we were doing,
so we won't do anything.
You know that sort of, and itwasn't quite like that, but
there was a tendency that well,it's coping mechanism.

Valerie Ling (36:35):
Yeah, exactly, it's the same as the phase of
coping.

Paul Harrington (36:37):
Yeah.
So I think in part it wastrying to walk with different
leaders through that space.
And so you know, like at anetwork level, what I kept
saying to the pastors was don'tbother reading the latest
mandates that the governmentputs out.
Don't try and work at thewrinkle space for doing things

(37:01):
At the central level.
We will do that work for you,but you know what's going on in.
You know hopefully in good timefor you to make adjustments,
but there's no need for us allto be experts on the legislation
and we'll provide that andwe'll help you move forward.
And we try to give someframeworks for people to work

(37:23):
within.
That we thought were going to bethe healthy spaces for people
to work in, but also enablingeach person to understand and
monitor, given their personality, how they were dealing with the
situation, how their householdswere getting in the space.
You know all those sorts ofthings.

(37:43):
So I think that it's in thosesort of spaces and I think one
of the things I'm often doingwith staff is to in the midst
normally it's in the midst ofchallenge to try and think
through why they're finding asituation challenging and to

(38:05):
then rework themselves in thatspace knowing that they've got
support.
So I think in my approach withleaders, what I've kept trying
to say is under God, you aremore important than what you do
and therefore let's focus on youin this space.

(38:27):
Like I'm really keen for ourstaff to serve well and
faithfully, but I want them tounderstand how I'll do that in a
rich way, moving forward, notin a way that just produces a
lot.
I think that's the sort ofthing we're trying to do.

Sue Harrington (38:44):
Yeah, looking at the long term.
So there have been times wheredifferent staff has struggled
and part of it is saying, look,it's okay to struggle sometimes,
but in life we will all havetimes where we really struggle.
And I mean when you look backand think that's where I really
grew so often too, but that it'sokay sometimes not to be coping

(39:04):
and that if that's the case,they need to be feel free and
safe to say that and then makeadjustments and you'll often
work with them and in fact,sometimes Paul, frustrate staff
by saying no, no, no, we'reactually you're not going to
come back quite yet on full time.
You know that actually you need, you know we've got somebody in

(39:26):
for the next however long to,and just kind of, because
sometimes we're on worst enemiesand you have to be a bit
careful not to be patronizing.
But there is a sense ofsometimes you're in a state
where you don't quite know whatis going to be helpful for the
long term.
So getting the supports around,graduating back into, you know,

(39:47):
full capacity, that sense ofsticking with people for the
long term, and that over a notyou know we have many staff that
have been here for a long time,that's over a 10 year period,
1520 years.
You will have a downtime or two, you know, and you're going to
have crises in the family.
You're going to have this nastyconflict that is going to push

(40:11):
your buttons, and then just tryto work out.
Well, how do you safelynavigate that for long term
ministry, even if this yearmight be not the best?

Paul Harrington (40:21):
year.
So you know, it was a few weeksago.
I was talking to someone whojust talked to me about the fact
they felt like they werehitting a bit of a wall and and
I just tried to talk themthrough the process for moving

(40:41):
back to a much healthier spaceand I said to them look, I'm
really this is a person that'ssay 40-ish.
I said what I'm really keen isthat when you get to 70 years of
age, you're saying, oh, so it'sbeen wonderful to be in
full-time jobs for work thiswhole period.
So that's my goal.
You know we need to do thethings now that help you have

(41:05):
that sort of experience movingforward and to make sure we
don't have a very short-termlens that we read this through.
So put in place the sort oflonger-term strategies for
actually being in that sort ofspot, because you know like for
us we're getting towards the endof our formal ministry sort of

(41:26):
years, but we've loved being inministry and we continue to
enjoy it and get excited by it.
Well, I want that for everybodymoving forward.
So how do we help people do that, I think, is one of our goals.

Valerie Ling (41:42):
So you have a board, and then what comes after
that?

Paul Harrington (41:50):
So the network has a board that has oversight,
really the carriage, of wherewe're going as a network of
churches, a partnership ofchurches, so they're trying to
establish some of the frameworkthings that help the churches
flourish From there.
In many ways there's a delegatedresponsibility for me thinking

(42:11):
through the implications of thaton the ground and I work with
now this is fairly recent butsome what I've called lead
pastors who have regionalresponsibilities.
So we've got the churches splitin, say, four regions at this
point and the idea is those leadpastors work closely.

(42:33):
The lead pastors are seniorpastors of churches but they
work with other senior pastorsas a cluster moving forward.
I tend to work with the leadpastors, although I touch base
with other senior pastors.
Each of our churches has aleadership team.
So you know a group that havethe carriage of thinking through

(42:55):
health at the local churchlevel and the senior pastors
with, say, four to five otherpeople in that leadership team
thinking through those issues.
So it goes board almost anexecutive group for the network,
lead pastors and 14 churcheswith senior pastors and

(43:16):
leadership teams.
That's the sort of the tieredsort of structure at this point.

Valerie Ling (43:23):
So that switch modes a little bit when you
think about Sue Wives.
Often think the podcast is soheavily geared to what's
families, mainly because that'swhat the survey participants
said and the pool so will stickwithin that.
But the top reasons for clergythinking about leaving the

(43:44):
ministry was the impact onfamily and loneliness, the third
one being the work stress.
You know what we hear in ourclinical work is when husbands
are out many, many evenings.
You know two, three, sometimesfour evenings a week.

(44:05):
Families with young children,mums coping then with a lot of
the caregiving and just thestress of everyday life, school
and, you know, special needs,diets that kids have.
How does one thrive as a family?

(44:25):
You know?
I think what have you seenreally helps and work at that
practical level.

Sue Harrington (44:32):
I think it needs to be something that the
husband and wife and the wholechurch really but work out
together, because there can beand it has to be, a genuine
seeking to honour God togetherand to raise your family
together and to ministertogether, however form that

(44:53):
might take.
But I think sometimes where itgoes awry, if you like, is where
it can be a guide forselfishness.
So the husband might be beingselfish and so it's all about me
because it's all about ministry, but really it's all about me.
So the wife is then kind of aseen as a resource or a, and the

(45:17):
kids too, to sort of build upthe husband in an unhealthy,
ungodly kind of way.
And you know, I've got to fillthis gap because otherwise my
husband won't succeed, sort ofthing.
So try to get out of that sortof thinking and thinking that we
really want to all serve Godwell, together, we're in it

(45:37):
together, just a slightlydifferent way of thinking and a
husband that is genuinelyservant hearted within the
family setting, but not.
But then you can go the otherway, of course, and you forget
the big vision, which is thatall together, we want to see
God's, we want to be serving God, we want to keep the big goal

(45:58):
in mind and I think I think partof it is getting the heart the
heart right, the heart of thewife right, the heart of the
husband right, the teamworkright.
So I think that that makes fora healthy and being honest.
So we all do only have you know, 24 hours in a day, seven days
in a week.
So you know, paul and I wouldtake stock, for example, each
year Okay, what is working, whatis it?

(46:19):
So, for example, I do.
I've run a business on the siderisk management for lawyers and
doctors.
You know, and that's kind ofhelped, helped me.
You know, when the kids werelittle, when they were young,
when they were at school, that Istarted doing that and you know
day a week or a couple of daysa week and it worked for me.
But each year we would honestlysay what's working, what isn't
working, and be prepared to makeadjustments, both of us in

(46:41):
different things.
We'd think through ministrythings, what's feasible, what
isn't feasible, and we wouldchange at different points.
So I've got to prepare the goodworks God's prepared, do the
good works God's preparedbeforehand for us to work in.
I was thinking, if it's notfeasible, like we had Paul's mum
stay with us with dementia forabout six months.

(47:02):
Well, it wasn't feasible tohave people in the home.
She'd at much at that pointshe'd be scared.
So we had to say that's not thegood work that God has for us
at this moment and so we'dadjust it.
When the kids were little, theyloved having the friends around.
You know that's when they gotTim Tams, you know.
So we'd make all the specialtreats around, all the church
stuff.
But then there was otherperiods where you know, oh, not

(47:28):
another night.
So then we would readjust.
So I think, remembering thatthere's huge flexibility in how
you do it, so being creative,getting your heart right first,
but then realising how thatworks out in practice, will
change from periods and stagesof life, from circumstances,

(47:48):
from you know where you're up toand just using that to meet
your big goals and glorify Godand see people come into the
kingdom and people grow, butdoing that within the an honest
capacity of where you're at andwhere you're at as a household.

Paul Harrington (48:09):
We were always keen for our kids.
You know our prayer was thatour kids would grow up always
knowing the love and mercy andgrace of God.
We wanted that to be the caseNow.
We didn't want our householdjust to be kids centric but
nonetheless that was a gooddesire that we had that our kids

(48:30):
would keep experiencing, in aministry family sort of setting,
that growth of knowledge, sothat they'd never feel like
they'd dipped out becausethey're in a ministry family,
and that our hearts desire wasthat always know that to be the
case.
So we never guarantee our kidssalvation only God can save

(48:53):
people.
But I think that's a good goalto have an administrative
household that kids flourish asbelievers, you know, because
they're growing up in abelieving household, moving
forward and setting a patternfor that I think.

Sue Harrington (49:07):
Yeah, couple of other things.
One thing that I've tried tokeep in mind and tried to keep
encouraging the wife's wives andas we talk with ministry
households, not every struggleis because you're in ministry.
Because you know, I'm thinking,I grew up in a family.
Dad was busy all the time.
You know we had lots ofdifferent stresses and strains
in life and financial things andyou know lots of people around

(49:32):
us are struggling to in.
Just, you know we're in abroken world.
So not allocating everythingbecause you're in ministry I
think is helpful.
So being realistic, but alsobeing realistic that there are
some things because you're inministry and so that you've sort
of chosen to do, but that mightmean you doesn't mean you don't

(49:55):
grieve the difficulties andthen so just being leadership, I
remember kind of almostlaughing at myself at points
where I thought I thought theywere my friend but really they
were thinking of me just as aleader.
You know somebody had a partyand they didn't invite me to it.
You know, and I think you knowclearly, you know a few things

(50:16):
like that along the way and weall get that and you think, oh,
it's probably a bit pathetic,but you actually do feel a bit
sad, you think.
Oh, I thought it was deeperthan that and it's probably just
part of that learning as athing of a job, yeah, yeah it
can be a sense of isolation thatyou're always sort of grappling
with.
Yeah, and so I've talked to thewise about that as well, and

(50:37):
they share it they all know andby I don't know, but you know
just that sense of that.
There is a difference.
Sometimes for some people theycan't seem to quite get over the
fact that you're the minister'swife and that's you know.
So then you have to work out.
Well then, how do you havesupports and encouragement?
So, for instance, both of ushave had groups for decades.

(50:59):
We've gone to have a littleprayer group with four lovely,
your three, three, there's fourof us that have met for decades,
you know, since the kids, andeven this morning there was
WhatsApp groups going around,messages going around for
someone who's got to make a bigdecision.
So there's that support andlong term encouragement where
we're all just friends, we'renot anybody's anything, and

(51:21):
you've had a similar sort ofyeah.

Paul Harrington (51:23):
I've been part of a men's breakfast group with
about six other men, probablynow for 25 years or so, fairly
regular group.
They're all 10 years older thanme, so I see them, you know,
dealing with issues 10 years infront of me and but also because
they're older, they have lesssense of me being in good way,

(51:45):
me being a pastor.
They still said that way andthey have great respect, but
nonetheless they're at adifferent sort of point.

Sue Harrington (51:52):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, there was just one more
thing on the suffering of family.
I don't want to think.
I think we have to be carefulis suffering isn't always bad,
and so sometimes our familieswill suffer.
But as long as where it'shandled well, that's not

(52:15):
necessarily the worst thing inthe world.
So you don't want traumabecause you've got trauma.
Just deal with the one trauma.
So you're having a mindset thatthat sometimes suffering is OK
and it's well.
You know God's, we're safe init and we've got to work through
it and it's not pleasant and itmay not be fair, but that it's
not necessarily the worst thingthat's happened, if you like.

Valerie Ling (52:38):
So I think, having visited you both, you're
flexible, you have a greatfriendship with one another.
The Paul and Sue friendship isvery evident.
You're fun, you have fun withone another.

Sue Harrington (52:54):
And really fun is really important in the
industry.
That well, for us it is justthat Out of the intensity, of it
all.

Paul Harrington (53:01):
So since the fun police, she's in charge of.

Valerie Ling (53:04):
I think you have a deep sense of fellowship.
So it probably is the lastthing I just wanted to ask you.
With the conflict that wasbeing reported in my survey.
I'm sure you have conflictwithin your churches and your
network as well, but I'mwondering, you know, what do you
think is happening?
Why do we have these levels of,you know, sort of almost war,

(53:27):
like conflict with one another,and what helps with that?
What do you think?
It's a big question.

Sue Harrington (53:36):
I know one of the things that helps, one of
the things that Paul does andhas consistently had this
drumbeat is we're not going tosweat the small things, we're
not going to fight about thingsthat aren't central or very
important.
So you know, drumbeat insermons, drumbeat in

(53:56):
conversations you pull, meetwith leadership groups and with
the pastors, yeah, so.

Paul Harrington (54:02):
I think, just trying to say often in church
circles people get upset aboutnot significant things and you
do want to listen to those, butnot too much.
Yeah, that is, you want to keepsaying, well, we're on about of
these big things and theseother things we won't be on
about.
So that's a culture settingthing from that point of view, I

(54:26):
think, a straightforwardnessand relationships with people.
If there are issues, we'll talkabout them.
So I, one of my staff, theother day, said to me he said I
was with a group of seniorpastors and I was grumbling
about you to them over something.
This is one of my senior pastorsand he said I just want to

(54:50):
apologize, it wasn't appropriate, but from my point of view, I
wanted to know why he wasgrumbling.
That is the content of that,because my job is not to
frustrate you.
Yeah, my job is trying toencourage you in ministry.
And he might have beengrumbling because I was, as I
thought it turned out, probablyhe, I was taking the task over
something that he needed to.

(55:10):
But I actually want to hearbecause I know that I've done
the best.
So creating that culture ofopenness and, I think, keeping
short memories.
So Sue will sometimes say Iremember we had this issue with

(55:30):
someone like that, you know,some time ago, and I'll
genuinely not be able toremember it and perhaps I'll
just blank out all the nastythings.
But you know, I think just takeover and try not to ruminate on
things.

Valerie Ling (55:46):
Forgetfulness is another F and feedback.
So I normally finish up byasking three questions.
If there was a ministry leaderand let's go with household,
because I love that we've beenable to talk about households If
there was a ministry familylistening to our conversation

(56:09):
today, what's one thing you'dlike them to walk away to think
about or to do?

Paul Harrington (56:18):
So I think what I love ministry families and I
don't say this lightly because Iknow that many people are going
through significant struggles,but it's almost remembering the
joy and privilege of being in aministry family and to remember
the grace and mercy that you'vebeen shown, the fact that you've

(56:38):
been able to be so part that,even if it's even if they're
going through a difficult timeright now, those things are
still true and I think justconstantly remembering that
sense of it's always a privilegeto be in the family of God,
then I think, for those who areset aside for leadership among
God's people, it's a doubleprivilege, but no, it's an easy

(57:01):
one but still a privilege, Ithink.

Sue Harrington (57:04):
And centred on the very core thing that God is
doing in all the universe.
So keeping that bigger visionthat this is for eternity, that
God is doing and we have theprivilege of being part of that,
yeah.

Paul Harrington (57:23):
And then a practical thing for families I
would think is there is a riskof isolation, that is, even
within couples.
You can spend a lot of timerolling something around
together and taking time to sitdown with some other people and

(57:45):
to talk about it and share thatissue or difficulty that's going
on.
It may not have happened but itwill sure help with a lot, I
think, in terms of movingforward, to know there's not
that disconnect and you don'thave to deal with an isolation.
And sometimes there can bewrong reasons for keeping
isolated.
It can be a pride or a fearattached to it, but nonetheless,

(58:11):
I think, sitting down withtrusted people to bounce stuff
around is enormously helpful,and particularly other people
that understand the situation.

Sue Harrington (58:20):
There is a bit nothing new under the sun when
it comes to some of thedifficulties in leadership.

Valerie Ling (58:27):
And if there was a church listening in?
So some people have got Biblestudies subscribed to the
podcast or care committeessubscribed.
What's one thing you'd love forthem to think about or do in
terms of understanding how we doministry together?

Sue Harrington (58:46):
I think genuinely loving your pastor and
their whole family I thinkthat's one of the joys that
we've had is feeling genuinelyloved and cared for and almost
embarrassed at points by thelevel of love and care.
I think everybody's praying forus.
This person's got the same sortof issue, but it actually does

(59:11):
help you.
It's like generosity breedsgenerosity, that sense of
kindness and grace.
Going backwards and forwards,so genuinely loving and working
out what is genuinely loving forthis pastor's family, which
might be different to somebodyelse, so getting to know them,
working out what is genuinelyloving and helpful to help them

(59:32):
serve you and God best.
Yeah.

Paul Harrington (59:35):
So I think the Sue mentioned earlier, when we
have staff join our network, Ido say to them you'll be given
respect by your congregation.
That will be a given for you.
Not always the case.
I don't think, as I talk topeople, but you can lose that,
you can reinforce that, butyou'll be given it.
I think I'd like to say tochurch leadership groups,

(01:00:00):
congregations go out of your wayto respect and honor your
leaders.
In other words, treat them inthe way you want them to operate
, as honorable people ofintegrity and people that are
trusted, because if you treatthem that way, you'll bring out

(01:00:20):
the best in them, so thatculture of not pastors aren't to
be pedestal, but that respectand honor and love I think is
really critical.

Sue Harrington (01:00:32):
Which is be, remandated God's ways of work.

Valerie Ling (01:00:36):
And finally, what and I know you will say that
you're not perfect in the waythat you've structured your
network.
You're still working it out.
But if there are otherdenominations or other networks
trying to figure out, okay, howdo we help our ministry families
in a post-pandemic business,burnt out, exhausted way?

(01:00:59):
What's one thing you'd likethem to think or do?

Paul Harrington (01:01:07):
I'm jumping.
I think, the risk with and weexperience as a network as we
grow, the easy thing to do is toorganize, develop policy and
structure and become a littlemechanical about the way we

(01:01:29):
facilitate stuff, and what I'mkeen for us to do is that is I
think that's a denominationalrisk.
Actually it's characterizesdenominations that get a bit
separated and structured andformalized.
I'm keen for us to continuebeing a network of churches and

(01:01:53):
the network idea is thepartnership idea and it's
partnership in the gospel and sothat we only ever come up with
structures and formal thingsthat help us partner together
well and moving forward with thegospel.
And that's a highly relationalactivity as we take the gospel
of people and as we share thegospel together, moving forward.
So I think that that sense ofkeeping on maintaining that

(01:02:17):
gospel fidelity relationallywith those who are lost as well
as those who believe, and howyou facilitate that moving
forward, I reckon as you grow,that's the area that can often
get lost.

Sue Harrington (01:02:34):
Yes, and it's interesting it can work both
ways, because we're finding weneed a few more structures.
So it's minimal, viable,effective governance, if you
like.
That is, that's relationallybased and with a purpose.
It's that kind of idea.
You need some structures as youget bigger because you can't
just all do it by word of mouth.
People have to understandwhat's going on but at the same

(01:02:54):
time not let that take over.
And it's for a purpose and it'sto encourage ministry.
Yeah, yeah and effectiveness.

Valerie Ling (01:03:05):
Thank you so much for spending time with me today,
paul and Sue, great pleasure.

Paul Harrington (01:03:11):
It's a lot to be with you, valerie.

Valerie Ling (01:03:16):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.