August 17, 2023 • 51 mins
Today, we're joined by Professor Donald Guthrie. Professor Donald Guthrie teaches at Trinity International University, and is the co-author of Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Told us about Surviving and Thriving, a book based on a five-year intensive research project on the frontlines of pastoral ministry. In this episode, he shares with Valerie his insights on social media conflict, the dangers of isolation, what helps clergy spouses flourish, the need for spiritual and emotional formation, and the value of professional and peer support.
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Reflection Questions:
- Reflect on your current levels of physical, emotional, spiritual and mental health. Which areas are most in need of restoration?
- Consider your attitude towards, and involvement with, social media. Are you demonstrating a ‘winsome witness’ and ‘gospel savvy’?
- Who would you consider to be your closest friends? What’s your level of connection with them?
- If you’re married, how would you respond to the statements: ‘I have friends’, ‘My spouse has friends’, ‘We have friends?’
- If you’re married, what is your spouse’s involvement with church? How do they feel about it?
- What professional supports, if any, do you have in place? Are there any additional ones you’d like to arrange? What is your response to the idea of professional counselling as a preventative measure?
- Do you have any ‘similar others’ in your life? Is there anyone who could fit that role for you, and vice versa?
- Have you fallen into the trap of confusing your identity with your role? How does that reveal itself? What gospel truths might you need to preach to yourself?
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a Clinical Psychologist andI'm your host for the Clergy
Well-Being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
It's so lovely here to have youhear today, what is your
official title, Donald?
Donald Guthrie (00:38):
Oh, I'm just a professor.
Valerie Ling (00:41):
Professor Donald Guthrie.
Yes.
Tell us a little bit about you,your role and some of the
things that you have beenworking on.
Donald Guthrie (00:53):
I've been in theological education now for
many decades as a administratorand as a professor, higher
education more broadly, for evenlonger than that got interested
in this area of research yearsago through a Lilly Endowment
(01:13):
grant at my previous institutionwhere we studied pastoral
well-being, and that's led tomany more years of interest in
the topic and many more years ofstudy.
So that's the kind of the shortof it.
How did I get here?
But how did I get here intothis topic over these years?
Valerie Ling (01:34):
And the book is Resilient Ministry.
What pastors told us aboutsurviving and thriving?
You were brought out here,probably 2018.
Would that be right toAustralia?
I
Donald Guthrie (01:46):
think so.
Valerie Ling (01:48):
And it was, and still is, one of the main books
that circulates around here whenwe think about this issue.
What piqued your interest tostudy this area?
Donald Guthrie (02:01):
Well, we had my colleagues and I, that is, we
had been alerted to somepreliminary research that the
foundation had done, the LillyEndowment had done, about local
church and clergy well-being andnot well-being, basically, and
(02:22):
then they invited theologicalinstitutions to kind of join
them in doing some study andthen sharing results with
everyone, which, as far asanyone knew, it was the first
time that it happened in theStates on such a wide scale.
We had already observed some ofthese things in our own
(02:44):
institution and with our own,both our own students and our
own grads, so it was a reallygood, it was a good timing
opportunity for us then to kindof catch this wave of research,
both that we wanted to do butalso with colleagues from around
the country here in the US.
Valerie Ling (03:05):
When we look at the state of clergy health and
well-being in the US, what doesthat look like?
Donald Guthrie (03:16):
It's a mixed bag , I think right now, On the one
hand, just at a high level weprobably know more now than
we've ever known in history.
So much money has gone intoresearch, so many different
studies have been done and moreare being done all the time.
So if we ever had an excuse, weare without excuse now, as far
(03:40):
as not just knowledge, but thefindings are a bit mixed.
And that was before COVID, letalone post COVID-ish, I guess we
could say now.
So the big picture on a largescale, with some of the larger
(04:02):
studies have been done, is thatclergy enjoy the work, but the
work itself is really almostliterally harmful to their
health for many of them.
So it's not that they don'tenjoy the work they do, but the
work that they're doing is atsuch a volume and such a
(04:26):
velocity that it's reallyleading to poor health, not just
poor mental health but poorphysical health.
So I guess that's the headline,that's what I mean when I say
it's a mixed bag.
There's satisfaction in thework, but there's kind of danger
(04:49):
in the work too.
Valerie Ling (04:51):
That definitely reflects some of the Australian
research that we have.
Work engagement or worksatisfaction or ministry
satisfaction is not really thewhole issue and certainly
reflects our clinical picture aswell.
I've often said that in ourpractice I've never seen a
(05:12):
minister that says they hateministry or what they do or
they've lost their zeal forJesus.
Donald Guthrie (05:20):
Right, and that's what our studies are
finding too.
It's not the engagement withpeople, it's not the preparation
, it's not a lot of things.
But I was interested to see oneof your findings, which I'm
sure we'll talk about some more,about the abusive side of the
(05:44):
whole work with clergy and howmuch they just endure.
That's very consistent withwhat we find out here, that the
reason why people leavevocational ministry is because
of unresolved interpersonalconflict.
Basically that's what drivesthem away.
(06:04):
They sort of literally justcan't take it anymore.
Valerie Ling (06:07):
Yes, Donald, those questions were a last minute
throw in when I considered thatwe have been tracking the
well-being of Australian schoolprincipals and actually noticing
that the levels of toxicconflict to the point of
personal violence or personalexperienced violence has been on
the increase and I thought,well, let's just ask our pastors
(06:30):
.
I actually wonder whether wejust don't know how to define
conflict in church.
So you know, if you look at thequestions that I was asking as
a psychologist, those are toxiclevels of conflict.
You're enduring that every dayand multiple levels of conflict.
(06:53):
So you know, feeling likeyou're being bullied, feeling
like you're being teased,feeling like you're the target
of gossip and slander andconstantly embroiled in conflict
and quarrel.
If you're actually in thatlevel of conflict every day and
it's part of your work andyou're from a psychologist
(07:15):
looking at any vocation or anyjob, that's actually
unsustainable.
But why do we let it happen orhow does it get to that level in
churches, do you think?
Donald Guthrie (07:29):
Well, I think what you said there at the
beginning is a clue.
There doesn't seem to be muchfrom the literature.
There doesn't seem to be muchinsight into, not necessarily
how to prevent conflict, butjust how to cope, how to
(07:50):
interact in a way wheresomething as mundane as
conversation is peaceful, civil,let alone generative, and
productive and fruitful.
Many pastors would settle if itwas just peaceful and let alone
if it went anywhere or didanything.
My observation is there's alittle bit more attention being
(08:16):
paid to that particular thingnow because of the research that
keeps seeming to indicate, likeI said, this unresolved inner
personal conflict piece beingthe big rock that seems to get
in people's way.
So it looks like we're zoomingin on that piece to see not just
(08:37):
what is but what could be doneabout it, how to address it, how
to provide some, maybe someextra training, some extra
coaching.
I think that's where we're atright now.
Valerie Ling (08:51):
And do you think that it's at the level of merely
not merely, but mainly coachingour pastors?
What about congregational lifeand congregational attitudes?
So one of my interests is inthe leadership followership
aspect.
Donald Guthrie (09:08):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (09:09):
And then conservationally.
For me it almost seems likefollowership really deteriorates
once we're in the churchsetting.
As a psychologist, we see allkinds of professions in the
burnout space that they don'tendure this type of level of
(09:29):
almost ungloved fights thathappen in the church.
What are your thoughts aboutwhat happens in congregational
thinking in their lives?
Donald Guthrie (09:40):
Yes, and, like you said, on a not perhaps a
constant rate, but a consistentrate which obviously is just
bound to where you are and whereyou're down.
Yeah, that's another thing thatwe're all taking a hard look at
is the civility challengebeyond the pastor.
(10:04):
You might say, how do we helpother ministry leaders become
both aware and become more adeptto have the pastors back, and
vice versa?
How do we help the folk in thecongregations learn how to kind
(10:26):
of undo what they've learned,how to do on social media, for
example, and not just bring allthat toxicity into the church,
which we see happening,unfortunately, with pretty much
regularity here?
So we're trying to addressthose things.
There's a number of researchersgetting after that.
On a broader scale, I thinkit's just starting to be applied
(10:49):
and looked at, though in moreof the local church context here
.
Valerie Ling (10:56):
What comes out of that research?
In that you know that, or Iknow, or I see that when we
interact in social media theanonymity, the fact that nobody
can see you you can sort of youknow, blast someone and run.
How is it that that approach torelating and conflict
(11:20):
management can still exist in achurch, when we do see one
another, when you see yourpastor presumably maybe not, you
love your pastor but I wouldn'tnecessarily see that same level
of interacting on social media,for example at my workplace or
at other workplaces.
Do you know what I mean?
Donald Guthrie (11:41):
Yeah, Well, I think pastors are playing catch
up, I mean as thinking of themas a people group when it comes
to not just harnessing socialmedia to make announcements and
to post sermons and to do thethings they've done now for a
while, relatively speaking, buthow to engage constructively
(12:06):
with a sort of a winsome witness.
I mean, that's a huge challenge.
Right now.
Some are taking it up, butwe've become so socialized, like
you said, to just blasting away.
It's just a lament.
For me personally, it's likehow in the world can we treat
(12:29):
people like this online, letalone in person?
It seems to bleed back in someyeah back into our daily lives,
not just our online lives.
We've noticed.
Valerie Ling (12:40):
I love that phrase winsome witness.
When I go about talking aboutwhat I do one of the things that
I get asked and I haven't hadany form of theological studies
I'll ask you the question butwhat about the apostle Paul?
Was he really that winsome?
Did he?
Was burnout an issue for him?
There's all kinds of conflictin the early church.
(13:03):
Surely we should just toughenit up and just keep going.
Donald Guthrie (13:11):
Yeah, I guess I have another phrase that I use
often when I talk to pastorsespecially, and that's gospel
savvy.
It's the wisest serpents,generalist doves, as Jesus said.
It's a sense of neither beingcostically cynical nor
hopelessly naive, to avoid thosetwo extremes but to cultivate
(13:38):
this sort of Christ-likepresence that, of course, only
the Lord Jesus was the onlyperson who was never anxious
with the person or group.
He's the only one who's everbeen fully present in those
conversations.
He's the only one who was neverhad to second guess himself.
(14:04):
Oh, I should have said that.
I shouldn't have said that likewe do all the time.
But there's a lot to learn fromhim when you observe him in
conversation and when youobserve the Apostle Paul, for
example, in when he's talking inAthens in Acts 17,.
I mean he's very savagelyengaging that group and
(14:27):
commending them for theirworship of the unknown God.
I mean sort of a creationalapologetic to go at the human
level with what he can commendon the way to bearing witness to
the God who made everything,and then, kind of taking it from
there, you get a master class,obviously in the book of Acts
(14:49):
about contextual witness bearing, because here it's a little bit
more of this and here it's alittle bit more of that, but
it's always the gospel.
It's just emphasized a littlebit more of this and a little
bit more of this here.
Like I would say, of courseit's a master class, it's a
scripture, but I think there's alot to learn there that's so
(15:10):
timeless and timely for us thesedays, in this realm of neither
heaving in to be okay, justforget about it, I'm going to
blast away too, or just throwingup our hands and saying I'm not
going to have anything to dowith it and go away.
Or being naive to say it's okay.
Valerie Ling (15:29):
Yeah, love that.
So let me take us through now,and you might have some things
that jumped out at you when youlooked at what I found.
What would be the best Sure goahead here we go.
So top three reasons for well.
First of all, up to 35% ofpastors have seriously thought
(15:50):
of quitting the ministry in thelast 12 months, and these are
the ones that haven't quit inthe middle of the pandemic.
Top three reasons my familysuffers, I feel lonely and
isolated, and the immense stressof the job, which,
interestingly, if you look atthose numbers, over 75% said my
(16:11):
family suffers, I feel lonelyand isolated, but 49% really
said it was the stress of thejob.
How does that reflect what youare experiencing or what your
research or what findings arecoming out in the US?
Donald Guthrie (16:25):
Yeah, in no particular order.
I can think about the familyissue, for example, but that
relates in our research.
That relates actually to theisolation issue, both personal
isolation but maybe even morepronounced when the clergy
person is married, there'scouple isolation.
(16:46):
So in our most recent survey weask a really simple, really
sort of syllogism.
We said, okay, respond to thefollowing I have friends, my
spouse has friends and we havefriends.
Wow.
So they could answer.
I mean they could say yes, yes,no, no, no, whatever, whatever
combination.
Okay, well, it was usually.
(17:08):
Usually they said yes, I havesome friends.
Yes, my spouse has some friends.
No, we don't have friends.
Wow, that was the most oftenregistered response.
There was more no.
It's already hard to havecouple friends when you're a
(17:28):
couple, I mean those folks whoare in a relationship with
someone.
It's hard to do that anyway,let alone when you're a clergy
couple.
I mean you just increased thedegree of difficulty, times or
whatever.
So that was something we werewondering about.
But our data, yeah, that's whatit looks like.
(17:48):
So those two are sort ofrelated, I guess.
And then I think the workitself that goes back to the
first thing we were talkingabout from this larger study
that was done at Notre Dameabout the work itself is
satisfying, but it's sooverwhelming it's not very
healthy.
(18:09):
I mean, that's sort of the one,two, three.
Yeah.
So that's pretty sounds prettyconsistent to me.
I guess is what I would say inresponse.
Valerie Ling (18:16):
Well, but the apostle Paul, I mean, he
probably didn't have any couplefriends and his work stress was
probably huge.
So what's our problem, Donald?
Donald Guthrie (18:29):
Well, our problem is, we're human beings
For whom isolation is deadly, Infact.
In fact, one of our primaryfindings in our most recent our,
my colleagues and my mostrecent research is that we call
ministry tensions, and the firstbig one is is isolation and
(18:50):
connection, and if you'reisolated, you basically die
might die slowly, but you dieand if you're connected, you
live.
Now, as you know, every singlestudy we're ever going to do is
going to have, is going to findthat out.
It's going to find that out forolder folks and younger folks
and everybody in between.
Valerie Ling (19:06):
Absolutely.
Donald Guthrie (19:07):
But they did tell us that and they gave us
reasons why and they illustratedit in our focus groups and said
when I am connected I am alive.
When I'm connected in formal,non-formal, informal ways, you
know, all up and down inrelationships it didn't have to
be close confidant friends.
It just was a sense ofconnection both sort of in the
(19:31):
family and then with confidants,and then with allies, and then
out even to the congregation andthen beyond the congregation
and the community.
We had so many pastors tell usthat some of their closest
friends were not just outsidetheir church but they weren't
even Christians.
They said that they it wastheir neighbor or it was someone
(19:55):
in a workout place or a socialclub that they belong to, that
they had to kind of get out allthe way outside the system.
And that's where they foundpersonal relationships and
connections and couplerelationships and connections.
I thought that was very telling.
At least that was reflected inour most recent research here.
Valerie Ling (20:19):
Yeah, as we are talking, I'm just reflecting on
how I actually think, from whatwe know in psychology at the
moment, that there are twothings that are endemic across
human beings, regardless of whatclinical presentations they
come emotional exhaustion andloneliness, and I think those
(20:39):
two things are actually quiteconnected, and so it's almost
like okay, you've got a baseline.
Most people in the world feelemotionally exhausted and lonely
for lots of reasons.
Society has changed, the way wecommunicate has changed, the
way we do work has changed.
And then you put a vocationalhazard, which is being in
ministry, which furtheralienates and isolates you.
(21:02):
I'm curious about the coupleloneliness.
I've not actually thought aboutthis.
What are the consequences ofthat Meaning that they're so
isolated, not just individually,but what would be the outcomes
of couples themselves not havinga couple friends?
Donald Guthrie (21:19):
Yeah, a couple things there.
Well, I was going to say, andon top of everything you just
said, there was this smallpandemic that went around the
world.
Yes, they exacerbated andaccelerated all this, of course.
Well, the couple thing.
One of the things that theytold us was the spouse.
(21:43):
I'll put it this way the spousewho is flourishing Okay, the
clergy spouse who is flourishingis flourishing because they
have friends outside the churchand they work outside the church
.
I'm sorry they work outside thehome.
I'm sorry they have friendsoutside the church and they work
outside the home.
If you have those two thingspretty strong correlation with,
(22:11):
they will be flourishing.
That does not mean that they'renot active in the church.
It doesn't mean they have enemy,it doesn't mean any of that.
It's just that those two thingspop up all over the place.
But, like I said earlier, if itcomes down to where are our
friends and who are friends,they're still pretty lonely as
(22:32):
couples, and when they aren'tlonely it's usually because the
spouse has some outsideactivities.
They're not just bound to thechurch but they're connected in
some ways to broader groups ofpeople.
Valerie Ling (22:47):
Well, donald, this is dangerous findings, because
one of the more I suppose whatwe would assume is that couples
would be doing ministry together, that very often the spouse
doesn't have work outside of thehome.
You know you are in community,your friends are your church.
How does that relate, then, tohow we would typically approach
(23:11):
doing ministry as a couple?
Donald Guthrie (23:13):
I think it's tipped.
I think the two for assumptionis gone, whether that was ever
spoken or unspoken.
When I say what I just said atpastor couple retreats, which we
do, quite a few of the spousesjust want to say, okay, we're
(23:36):
just going to stop everythingand talk about this now for a
while.
So everybody just getcomfortable, because they can't
believe we've said this out loudand they perceive it's even
half of a safe space to talkabout it.
They want to talk about it.
Wow, they just have not beenable to.
They just have not found wherethey can talk about this out
loud.
I think they're so desperatefor connection.
Valerie Ling (23:59):
Yes.
Donald Guthrie (24:00):
They've gone, they've indicated they've gone
looking They've.
I mean they're happily married.
I mean that's the other thingabout this Interesting.
The marriage is strong.
They've indicated selfreporting but they've indicated
we're good together.
We just we just need friends,we just need connections.
And the spouses said I can'twait.
(24:22):
Yeah.
I need help, I can't, I can'texist this way.
At least the pastor has someother, probably pastor friends.
Yeah.
Spouse.
They're not waiting aroundanymore and they're not, they're
not allowing, in a sensethey're not allowing the church
to say this is not a twofer, youdon't get me because you got
(24:46):
the pastor.
Yeah, I think it's a big twoand it's, it's becoming.
I would, I would observe.
Now, I don't, I can't tracethis demographically, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it wasalso generational.
That wouldn't surprise me atall, and by generational I'm I'm
thinking maybe it's certainlyif I had to put an age on a 40
(25:10):
and younger, and it might be, itmight be a little older than
that.
Now I would say no way, don'tassume, if you get me, you get
the spouse.
Valerie Ling (25:23):
Wow, stay tuned on that, on that front, yeah, yeah
, it's pretty pronounced.
Donald Guthrie (25:31):
I mean it's, it's not, it's no longer sort of
a whisper, I would say it's ashout.
Valerie Ling (25:36):
Yeah, I'll I.
I wonder what that, what thelevel of thinking?
Donald Guthrie (25:41):
in.
Valerie Ling (25:41):
Australia is.
I'd be curious.
I think one of the things we doneed to do is we need to do
exactly the same things thatwe're doing with our clergy and
ask actually ask the kids andask spouses and what's happening
in their world.
I think we'll get a lot ofinformation there.
Donald Guthrie (25:59):
I really agree.
We we are just beginning in theStates to get to that layer.
Yeah.
Well, those two layers ofspouse and family, we know a
little bit, but not, not, not,not nearly enough.
Valerie Ling (26:14):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Donald Guthrie (26:17):
Especially on scale.
We need way more, way more datathere.
Valerie Ling (26:24):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(26:45):
Let's talk now about the otherelement which I found, which was
one of the things that I reallywanted to add or even raise in
the conversation, because, as apsychologist, when we are seeing
our ministers, we are noticingthat a sense of defectiveness
and shame, having really highstandards and perfectionism, but
(27:08):
the block gaining insight intothat is really not attending to
their own emotional life.
So we're quick to go.
This is a problem.
I'll reflect and think aboutthis and then figure out what is
the strategy to solve thisproblem.
But me as a human being, and howI'm feeling and the insight
(27:29):
that I'm gaining from myreactions and maybe and the
reactions of others, seems to bemissing Now that surface acting
.
I found a correlation withburnout.
I also found a correlation withdestructive leadership patterns
which, in my survey, if we lookat the range of being unhelpful
, inappropriate to abusive I wasreally looking at unhelpful.
(27:52):
Once it gets to the point offorceful leadership, you're
getting angry, you're blaming,you're using punishing tactics
that was linked to burnout aswell as to surface acting
emotions.
What are your thoughts andreflections on that?
Donald Guthrie (28:10):
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting finding
in your research.
I definitely see some parallelshere too to ours in the States.
There are a couple of maybedifferent ways in terms of the
(28:31):
influencers.
One would be Our folks wouldreport they may not have much
self-awareness, which wouldhopefully lead to self-care, so
they care more about others thanthemselves.
But that's nothing new.
I mean, helping helpers hasbeen around for a long time.
(28:52):
You know that that's what youdo.
Valerie Ling (28:54):
Yeah, that's foundational to how Ben out came
about, isn't it how it?
Donald Guthrie (28:58):
was, it is yeah.
Valerie Ling (28:59):
Yeah.
Donald Guthrie (29:00):
So that keeps popping up, I would say yeah.
The interesting thing would bethere's an increased awareness
and interest in attending to theneeds of the other, which is
fairly new.
I mean, it's actually apositive trend.
(29:21):
There's just not knowledge orskill.
So there's awareness andwillingness but not knowledge or
skill, so it's lagging on theI'd love to do that and I think
it's important, but I don't knowhow to start.
I don't know what to do and Idon't even know how to process
(29:43):
that myself.
Whoever I am, I don't know whyI'm just reading the Bible and I
think it's important, so Ishould probably get outside my
comfort zone, my relationalcomfort zone and so forth.
So there's again.
It's a bit of a mixed bag asfar as interest, willingness,
(30:05):
lack.
It just looks to me like it's areal jumble right now of trying
to sort this out in a way wherethey see the connectivity that
their own abiding in Christ canbring them, even as they
minister outwardly.
Valerie Ling (30:24):
Is that a formation issue or is that you
need to go and learn andpractice and do it issue?
Donald Guthrie (30:33):
Well, our folks who are trained formally, say in
Bible colleges or seminaries orsome place in formal education,
have I can say this either way,but I'll say increasingly
lacked discipleship in their ownlives before they come to get
(30:54):
formally trained.
So that's an opportunity and aproblem.
Valerie Ling (31:02):
How would you define that discipleship?
Donald Guthrie (31:06):
Well, have they had experience, exposure,
participation, let alonecontribution experience in a
local church?
I mean, it's just that basiclevel.
Have they had anybody in theirlives as spiritual mentors?
Have they been in groups ofpeers and or generational mix of
(31:33):
folk?
So you'd have a variety ofspiritually mature, spiritually
mature all jumbled together thatwould be obviously part of the
church, but not in a localchurch.
They would be perhaps a groupover here, a Bible study here.
Do you, or fewer of them, haveall three of those, maybe not
(31:54):
even one, as they come to getformally trained?
So we cannot assume not onlywe've not been able to assume a
basic level of Bible knowledgefor a while, but now you cannot
assume even any sort of level ofdepth of maturity in Christ,
(32:15):
understanding of the localchurch, anything like that.
So our challenge is to payattention to formation, to your
point, more and more and more,and hold hands, join hands with
the local churches even aroundus here I mean in my context as
well as our other sister schoolsand other churches to kind of
(32:40):
fill that vacuum and not put thetwo against each other, not put
the formal education, trainingand the local church preparation
and formation, but more andmore.
Combine those two, because it'snow desperately needed.
Valerie Ling (32:53):
Right.
So this makes me think of whatwe experienced in our industry
psychologists.
We are actually finding verysimilarly.
Early career psychologistsreally haven't experienced
relationships themselves.
They've been highly academic.
They're usually clever andhelpful people, but being
(33:19):
exposed to unpacking your ownbrokenness, being exposed to
brokenness, many of our earlycareer psychologists actually
feel intimidated by some of theclinical issues we see domestic
violence, substance abuse,children.
It causes them to actuallyattrition from our profession.
So I'm wondering there's theissue of maybe spiritual
(33:42):
formation, but is theresomething about our emotional
formation as well?
Coming into ministry, justinteracting in that space?
What are your thoughts?
Donald Guthrie (33:52):
Yeah for sure.
Part of a bigger story going onhere, as well, as what I
understand around the world, isthe increasing levels of pretty
significant mental healthstruggles, and we've certainly
experienced that, I know.
Just boiling it down to ourcontext here, just you name it
(34:15):
yeah, it's just overwhelming,it's overwhelming our system.
I just personally, I feel likeI just need to go back to school
and get a counseling degreethese days Because of the level
of challenge with just mentalhealth issues that our folk have
(34:35):
, and it's not just a few, butit's more.
And it's not just more, butit's more depth of their issues,
more of their challenges.
So that's, I'd say that's adeveloping story that we're all
trying to figure out how toaddress, how to help, how to
come alongside.
(34:56):
The days are long gone when Ican just deliver content and say
, okay, I'm finished, I did myjob.
If you're in theologicaleducation here, that's just our
movement I would say happily ismoving more and more towards,
like I said earlier, this arm inarm with the church, so that we
accept some more responsibilityand then act on the
(35:17):
responsibility about formation,not just information and skill
building.
That is definitely the movement, that is definitely the
conversation, that's definitelythe way our standards of
accreditation have moved justthe last few years.
So we're all still getting usedto the shift.
(35:39):
I would say it's a healthyshift.
But you're asking a lot offolks who are both trained in a
particular way to say, okay, nowwe're going to have to add to
this Even more.
That's a big lift, that's a bigask.
It speaks to the work stress.
It speaks really to the workstress.
Valerie Ling (36:04):
The complexity of being in a pastor has grown,
inclusive of the mental healthburden that comes with the role.
Yes, here is about your thoughtsabout emotional awareness.
So one of the things that mystudy and probably other studies
have found is that pastors canbelieve that they're
(36:26):
self-reflective, but thereflection doesn't necessarily
lead to insight, particularlyself-insight as to what does
this tell me about me?
How does this inform my strongreactions and doesn't
necessarily build insight into,and why would that person have
(36:47):
reacted that way?
Are you finding similar thingsself-reflection to self-insight,
emotional awareness?
Donald Guthrie (36:58):
I would say yes and no again.
So, yes, increasedself-awareness, but not
necessarily yet towards healthyapplication of the insight that
would be gained.
So, in other words, there's amiddle stopping place where, I
(37:20):
would say, again positively,more are willing to and are
seeking professional counselingas a result of this raised
awareness.
So they realize part of their,whether it just be coping with
some things they need to copewith, dealing with things they
need to deal with, all the wayto pretty substantial healing
(37:44):
needed.
They need help, and they'reincreasingly willing to ask for
the help, which, again, I thinkis a very positive development.
I think it's just maybe goingto start turning into
self-awareness, to, like yousaid, insight and then being
able to help others.
(38:04):
I would say, just observingmyself.
That's what I would hope.
That would be the trajectorythat the Lord would kind of lead
to, but there's definitely moreawareness and there's
definitely more willingness toseek help.
It looks to me, though, like thejury is still out as far as.
(38:25):
Okay, what would be the fruit?
Because some of them might justsay, okay, that means I just am
out, not because they're notthe older, because they're not
increasing their ownself-awareness and the insight
that comes with that.
But they just realize theycan't take that pressure, they
can't take the like we saidearlier, the blowback or
(38:47):
whatever it is, or they mightre-engage in a way that's even
healthier, stronger, moreconnected and so forth.
I don't think we know what theanswer that's going to be.
I think it's too soon to say.
Valerie Ling (39:02):
In Australia there is quite a lot of conversation
about putting some support roles.
So we've got coaching,mentoring and now a pastoral
supervision is going to becomesomething that everybody will
have.
All clergy will have to do.
Donald Guthrie (39:20):
Okay.
Valerie Ling (39:20):
What are your thoughts about these formalized
roles and say, okay, everypastor needs to have a mentor, a
coach, a pastoral supervisor,and only seek help from a
therapist if you really reallyneed it.
What are your thoughts?
Donald Guthrie (39:35):
Wow, I'd say that's a lot of structure and I
would say, helpful.
Structure is good overall.
I mean, some fellowships andsome denominations have that
baked into their systems and Ithink their pastors do better
because they have those layersof connectivity and support.
The ones who don't aren't.
(40:00):
It's pretty simple If thestructure isn't there to bring
support, then it's on them andthat's again that's a lot to ask
to sort of make up this notjust a development plan but a
care package and not just that.
But I mean, my goodness, whendid we ever help them learn how
(40:23):
to do any of this?
If we're just saying, okay, bewarm and well fed off, you go,
especially from our schools, Idon't know how they're going to
do it and they aren't.
So I like the idea of thestructure, but I guess I would
advocate and I do advocate orprofessional counseling being
(40:46):
part of the team.
Valerie Ling (40:47):
That's interesting .
Donald Guthrie (40:48):
Part of the approach Just bake it in, just
assume it.
Valerie Ling (40:53):
And even if it's just for checkup.
Donald Guthrie (40:57):
I'm sorry.
What'd you say?
Valerie Ling (40:58):
What would that look like, donald?
What does that look like tohave more professional
counseling baked in?
Donald Guthrie (41:04):
Well, I think I mean I would say in my own
formal education context, it'sus helping our students learn
how to evaluate, interview, lookup, network and say this is
non-negotiable the answer to whois on your team ongoing Lee is
(41:27):
a professional counselors onyour team.
Just assume it and just trainthem that way and send them out
that way so that they don't haveto go through whatever they go
through to get to the pointwhere they're desperate and you
have to look around and findsomebody.
We ought to build networks veryintentionally so that we can
help them with that on the frontend, the pre-service end, as
(41:49):
they go into and continue intheir ministry.
Valerie Ling (41:52):
I would say You've actually given me something to
think about, because this isalso lacking in our profession.
It used to be thatpsychologists were formed by
having therapy while we wentthrough our formal degree.
Whether we were in distress ornot, it was actually considered
to be compulsory that you had toreceive it, and why it was the
(42:13):
third eye, even if you're notfeeling anything, it was just
opening up the landscape in theworld so that as you went out
and interacted with other peopleAm I hearing you say that it's
almost like right now?
I think in Australia we put theprofessional counseling right
at the tail end.
When things are starting toshow signs of breaking, you're
(42:34):
saying that let's bring it rightup the front.
Donald Guthrie (42:38):
Yes, so that it's both preventative and it's
sort of the, I guess, analogousto a well person visit with your
doctor.
I don't just go to the doctorwhen I feel terrible or when I
need help or whatever.
I go, because I go, I get acheck up and I get a check in
(42:59):
and I have a conversation.
Why can't we think that wayabout our mental health as well?
I think the stigma it's nottotally gone in our context, but
it's been much diminished.
I would say, praise the Lord,but it still isn't.
(43:20):
I'll go when I'm in trouble.
It's still the mentality I'mlike don't wait till you're in
trouble.
Valerie Ling (43:26):
Yeah, I think in Australia, at least from my
context, I think we've shit thedoll.
I used to see them.
I used to see ministers come inwhen they're on the stretcher
Right now stretcher wheel chairnot quite there anymore we are
seeing them more coming in whenthey've got a raised temperature
, which is really helpful, butI'm going to spend a lot of
(43:48):
happy time contemplating,pushing for okay.
Well, why don't we actually justput counselling right in the
beginning?
Sure, so I would love to finishwith your take homes for
everything that we've talkedabout.
So we've talked about theloneliness and the isolation.
We've talked about theformation issues as well.
(44:15):
We've talked about the way thatthe ministry work role has been
structured now that it'sunbearable.
We've talked about levels ofconflict in the church.
If you had one thing that youwould say to a pastor their
family in the midst of all ofthat, what would be one thing
(44:37):
that someone in ministry can doright now, after listening to us
?
Donald Guthrie (44:43):
Yeah, this is a little bit of a different taken
a little bit newer or taken.
I think it's one of the mostpromising things I've read about
in the research and it comesfrom a study that same study
from Notre Dame, so far thelargest done in the states, and
it tapped into this literaturecalled similar others, and I
(45:03):
think it has a lot of promise.
Because what did we say is partof the biggest, what's the
biggest problem?
Connectivity with others, justsimply.
Well, part of the issue is canyou find those folks in your
system?
Oh, maybe, maybe not.
You can only go so far and sodeep.
(45:24):
Well, how do you find themoutside the system?
Well, this research indicatesthat maybe there's this middle
way of similar others.
So, for example, for a pastor,a similar other would be
somebody like you.
It would be somebody in thehelping professions that knows
enough about helping but isn't apastor but is a social worker
or a professional psychologistor an educator or a doc or a
(45:46):
nurse or a hospice caregiver.
Well, what if we said to thehelping professionals you guys
have enough in common that youcould really help one another
Because, as you all know,helping the helpers is really
challenging.
And if each profession tries tocome up with its own categories
of helping their helpers, I mean, that's a good thing, and they
(46:07):
are.
But what if we cross-pollinatedtoo?
What if we said to the helpershey, you know, why can't the
helpers help the helpers even asthey help others?
I'm very interested in thatdevelopment.
I'll put it that way.
I think there's a lot of promisethere and when I've shared that
(46:29):
just in the last, it's been inthe last little while, maybe the
last year or two, when I sharethat with folk both in the
pastorate but then also outsidethe pastorate just my other
colleague, friends in thehelping professions, they go.
Oh, I think there's somethingto that.
Valerie Ling (46:45):
Amazing.
Donald Guthrie (46:46):
So I'm encouraged by that.
I personally would like to do alittle more research in that
area because I think there's somuch promise there.
So that's like I said, that'srelatively a new thing on the
horizon here, but I thinkthere's some promise.
Maybe we can all think aboutthat together.
Valerie Ling (47:01):
Really and what is one thing you would hope?
A church listening.
You know, if there's a pastor,there's a church, a church
listening in.
What one thing you'd like forthem to take away that they
might think about or do fromlistening, from this?
Donald Guthrie (47:19):
Sure, I think the local church can be a huge
help to pastors and theirfamilies and obviously they need
to pray for them regularly.
They need to treat them ashuman beings.
It's hard, if not impossible,for a pastor to never be the
pastor at the store in the lawnmowing the grass.
(47:40):
So being a human being is apretty important thing to be.
How can we encourage them tohave a life and not just be a
24-hour, seven-day a week?
Your role is your identity.
How can we help ourcongregations understand that's
just not healthy.
That's not healthy for anybodyand it's not healthy for our
(48:03):
pastors to confuse identity withrole.
So how can we come alongsideand pray for and help and have a
bite to eat and just do prettymundane and everyday things with
them so we can remind ourselvesand the pastor that we're human
beings together here.
We're Christians together here,Not just this hierarchy of
(48:25):
callings where the pastor isabove and beyond and better be
holier than us, and thatfoolishness.
I think we just have to learn anew language and learn a new
way of relating to those folks.
This is supportive and lovingand helpful and encouraging.
Valerie Ling (48:43):
And, finally, policymakers people sitting in
the denominations listening tothis in terms of thinking about
how do we look at the workcontext, job design, the
supports that we have.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with?
Donald Guthrie (49:03):
Well, I think we need to work on our curriculum
to make it more coherent in ourformal education.
I'm thinking about educationfirst, but I think we need a lot
of help making the curriculumcoherent so that we don't
separate the person and theskill building and the knowledge
(49:23):
base, but bring together the nobe do, because that's who we
have in front of our faces as weteach and train and equip.
These are whole people.
Let's treat them as wholepeople and let's treat them as
whole people all the way throughthe curriculum.
So that's one thing I'd say theformal education folk like
myself, Denominationally I thinkthere's a real opportunity to
(49:45):
link arms with our educationalinstitutions.
We've got to find new andcreative ways to do it.
Some folk are advocating sort ofa hospital residency model
which is intriguing fortheological education.
Some folks are certainly tryingto beef up their internship
(50:10):
opportunities even in the midstof formal schooling.
I think all those things needto continue to be tried, paid
attention to, captured, reported.
If anybody finds some water,share it with somebody else.
I mean, I think it's all handson deck at all the layers of the
systems in which we findourselves.
Valerie Ling (50:36):
Thank you so much for spending your time with me.
It's been so rewarding and soenriching and, I think, just
encouraging.
Just like you said, one body inChrist, for His glory, for His
kingdom, and so the wordcontinues to be proclaimed that
we are able to dialogue, so Ireally thank you, professor
(50:57):
Donald Guthrie, for spendingyour time today.
Donald Guthrie (51:00):
A real delight to see you again.
Valerie, Take care.
Valerie Ling (51:05):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a Clinical Psychologist andI'm your host for the Clergy
Well-Being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up and here we go.
It's so lovely here to have youhear today, what is your
official title, Donald?
Donald Guthrie (00:38):
Oh, I'm just a professor.
Valerie Ling (00:41):
Professor Donald Guthrie.
Yes.
Tell us a little bit about you,your role and some of the
things that you have beenworking on.
Donald Guthrie (00:53):
I've been in theological education now for
many decades as a administratorand as a professor, higher
education more broadly, for evenlonger than that got interested
in this area of research yearsago through a Lilly Endowment
(01:13):
grant at my previous institutionwhere we studied pastoral
well-being, and that's led tomany more years of interest in
the topic and many more years ofstudy.
So that's the kind of the shortof it.
How did I get here?
But how did I get here intothis topic over these years?
Valerie Ling (01:34):
And the book is Resilient Ministry.
What pastors told us aboutsurviving and thriving?
You were brought out here,probably 2018.
Would that be right toAustralia?
I
Donald Guthrie (01:46):
think so.
Valerie Ling (01:48):
And it was, and still is, one of the main books
that circulates around here whenwe think about this issue.
What piqued your interest tostudy this area?
Donald Guthrie (02:01):
Well, we had my colleagues and I, that is, we
had been alerted to somepreliminary research that the
foundation had done, the LillyEndowment had done, about local
church and clergy well-being andnot well-being, basically, and
(02:22):
then they invited theologicalinstitutions to kind of join
them in doing some study andthen sharing results with
everyone, which, as far asanyone knew, it was the first
time that it happened in theStates on such a wide scale.
We had already observed some ofthese things in our own
(02:44):
institution and with our own,both our own students and our
own grads, so it was a reallygood, it was a good timing
opportunity for us then to kindof catch this wave of research,
both that we wanted to do butalso with colleagues from around
the country here in the US.
Valerie Ling (03:05):
When we look at the state of clergy health and
well-being in the US, what doesthat look like?
Donald Guthrie (03:16):
It's a mixed bag , I think right now, On the one
hand, just at a high level weprobably know more now than
we've ever known in history.
So much money has gone intoresearch, so many different
studies have been done and moreare being done all the time.
So if we ever had an excuse, weare without excuse now, as far
(03:40):
as not just knowledge, but thefindings are a bit mixed.
And that was before COVID, letalone post COVID-ish, I guess we
could say now.
So the big picture on a largescale, with some of the larger
(04:02):
studies have been done, is thatclergy enjoy the work, but the
work itself is really almostliterally harmful to their
health for many of them.
So it's not that they don'tenjoy the work they do, but the
work that they're doing is atsuch a volume and such a
(04:26):
velocity that it's reallyleading to poor health, not just
poor mental health but poorphysical health.
So I guess that's the headline,that's what I mean when I say
it's a mixed bag.
There's satisfaction in thework, but there's kind of danger
(04:49):
in the work too.
Valerie Ling (04:51):
That definitely reflects some of the Australian
research that we have.
Work engagement or worksatisfaction or ministry
satisfaction is not really thewhole issue and certainly
reflects our clinical picture aswell.
I've often said that in ourpractice I've never seen a
(05:12):
minister that says they hateministry or what they do or
they've lost their zeal forJesus.
Donald Guthrie (05:20):
Right, and that's what our studies are
finding too.
It's not the engagement withpeople, it's not the preparation
, it's not a lot of things.
But I was interested to see oneof your findings, which I'm
sure we'll talk about some more,about the abusive side of the
(05:44):
whole work with clergy and howmuch they just endure.
That's very consistent withwhat we find out here, that the
reason why people leavevocational ministry is because
of unresolved interpersonalconflict.
Basically that's what drivesthem away.
(06:04):
They sort of literally justcan't take it anymore.
Valerie Ling (06:07):
Yes, Donald, those questions were a last minute
throw in when I considered thatwe have been tracking the
well-being of Australian schoolprincipals and actually noticing
that the levels of toxicconflict to the point of
personal violence or personalexperienced violence has been on
the increase and I thought,well, let's just ask our pastors
(06:30):
.
I actually wonder whether wejust don't know how to define
conflict in church.
So you know, if you look at thequestions that I was asking as
a psychologist, those are toxiclevels of conflict.
You're enduring that every dayand multiple levels of conflict.
(06:53):
So you know, feeling likeyou're being bullied, feeling
like you're being teased,feeling like you're the target
of gossip and slander andconstantly embroiled in conflict
and quarrel.
If you're actually in thatlevel of conflict every day and
it's part of your work andyou're from a psychologist
(07:15):
looking at any vocation or anyjob, that's actually
unsustainable.
But why do we let it happen orhow does it get to that level in
churches, do you think?
Donald Guthrie (07:29):
Well, I think what you said there at the
beginning is a clue.
There doesn't seem to be muchfrom the literature.
There doesn't seem to be muchinsight into, not necessarily
how to prevent conflict, butjust how to cope, how to
(07:50):
interact in a way wheresomething as mundane as
conversation is peaceful, civil,let alone generative, and
productive and fruitful.
Many pastors would settle if itwas just peaceful and let alone
if it went anywhere or didanything.
My observation is there's alittle bit more attention being
(08:16):
paid to that particular thingnow because of the research that
keeps seeming to indicate, likeI said, this unresolved inner
personal conflict piece beingthe big rock that seems to get
in people's way.
So it looks like we're zoomingin on that piece to see not just
(08:37):
what is but what could be doneabout it, how to address it, how
to provide some, maybe someextra training, some extra
coaching.
I think that's where we're atright now.
Valerie Ling (08:51):
And do you think that it's at the level of merely
not merely, but mainly coachingour pastors?
What about congregational lifeand congregational attitudes?
So one of my interests is inthe leadership followership
aspect.
Donald Guthrie (09:08):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (09:09):
And then conservationally.
For me it almost seems likefollowership really deteriorates
once we're in the churchsetting.
As a psychologist, we see allkinds of professions in the
burnout space that they don'tendure this type of level of
(09:29):
almost ungloved fights thathappen in the church.
What are your thoughts aboutwhat happens in congregational
thinking in their lives?
Donald Guthrie (09:40):
Yes, and, like you said, on a not perhaps a
constant rate, but a consistentrate which obviously is just
bound to where you are and whereyou're down.
Yeah, that's another thing thatwe're all taking a hard look at
is the civility challengebeyond the pastor.
(10:04):
You might say, how do we helpother ministry leaders become
both aware and become more adeptto have the pastors back, and
vice versa?
How do we help the folk in thecongregations learn how to kind
(10:26):
of undo what they've learned,how to do on social media, for
example, and not just bring allthat toxicity into the church,
which we see happening,unfortunately, with pretty much
regularity here?
So we're trying to addressthose things.
There's a number of researchersgetting after that.
On a broader scale, I thinkit's just starting to be applied
(10:49):
and looked at, though in moreof the local church context here
.
Valerie Ling (10:56):
What comes out of that research?
In that you know that, or Iknow, or I see that when we
interact in social media theanonymity, the fact that nobody
can see you you can sort of youknow, blast someone and run.
How is it that that approach torelating and conflict
(11:20):
management can still exist in achurch, when we do see one
another, when you see yourpastor presumably maybe not, you
love your pastor but I wouldn'tnecessarily see that same level
of interacting on social media,for example at my workplace or
at other workplaces.
Do you know what I mean?
Donald Guthrie (11:41):
Yeah, Well, I think pastors are playing catch
up, I mean as thinking of themas a people group when it comes
to not just harnessing socialmedia to make announcements and
to post sermons and to do thethings they've done now for a
while, relatively speaking, buthow to engage constructively
(12:06):
with a sort of a winsome witness.
I mean, that's a huge challenge.
Right now.
Some are taking it up, butwe've become so socialized, like
you said, to just blasting away.
It's just a lament.
For me personally, it's likehow in the world can we treat
(12:29):
people like this online, letalone in person?
It seems to bleed back in someyeah back into our daily lives,
not just our online lives.
We've noticed.
Valerie Ling (12:40):
I love that phrase winsome witness.
When I go about talking aboutwhat I do one of the things that
I get asked and I haven't hadany form of theological studies
I'll ask you the question butwhat about the apostle Paul?
Was he really that winsome?
Did he?
Was burnout an issue for him?
There's all kinds of conflictin the early church.
(13:03):
Surely we should just toughenit up and just keep going.
Donald Guthrie (13:11):
Yeah, I guess I have another phrase that I use
often when I talk to pastorsespecially, and that's gospel
savvy.
It's the wisest serpents,generalist doves, as Jesus said.
It's a sense of neither beingcostically cynical nor
hopelessly naive, to avoid thosetwo extremes but to cultivate
(13:38):
this sort of Christ-likepresence that, of course, only
the Lord Jesus was the onlyperson who was never anxious
with the person or group.
He's the only one who's everbeen fully present in those
conversations.
He's the only one who was neverhad to second guess himself.
(14:04):
Oh, I should have said that.
I shouldn't have said that likewe do all the time.
But there's a lot to learn fromhim when you observe him in
conversation and when youobserve the Apostle Paul, for
example, in when he's talking inAthens in Acts 17,.
I mean he's very savagelyengaging that group and
(14:27):
commending them for theirworship of the unknown God.
I mean sort of a creationalapologetic to go at the human
level with what he can commendon the way to bearing witness to
the God who made everything,and then, kind of taking it from
there, you get a master class,obviously in the book of Acts
(14:49):
about contextual witness bearing, because here it's a little bit
more of this and here it's alittle bit more of that, but
it's always the gospel.
It's just emphasized a littlebit more of this and a little
bit more of this here.
Like I would say, of courseit's a master class, it's a
scripture, but I think there's alot to learn there that's so
(15:10):
timeless and timely for us thesedays, in this realm of neither
heaving in to be okay, justforget about it, I'm going to
blast away too, or just throwingup our hands and saying I'm not
going to have anything to dowith it and go away.
Or being naive to say it's okay.
Valerie Ling (15:29):
Yeah, love that.
So let me take us through now,and you might have some things
that jumped out at you when youlooked at what I found.
What would be the best Sure goahead here we go.
So top three reasons for well.
First of all, up to 35% ofpastors have seriously thought
(15:50):
of quitting the ministry in thelast 12 months, and these are
the ones that haven't quit inthe middle of the pandemic.
Top three reasons my familysuffers, I feel lonely and
isolated, and the immense stressof the job, which,
interestingly, if you look atthose numbers, over 75% said my
(16:11):
family suffers, I feel lonelyand isolated, but 49% really
said it was the stress of thejob.
How does that reflect what youare experiencing or what your
research or what findings arecoming out in the US?
Donald Guthrie (16:25):
Yeah, in no particular order.
I can think about the familyissue, for example, but that
relates in our research.
That relates actually to theisolation issue, both personal
isolation but maybe even morepronounced when the clergy
person is married, there'scouple isolation.
(16:46):
So in our most recent survey weask a really simple, really
sort of syllogism.
We said, okay, respond to thefollowing I have friends, my
spouse has friends and we havefriends.
Wow.
So they could answer.
I mean they could say yes, yes,no, no, no, whatever, whatever
combination.
Okay, well, it was usually.
(17:08):
Usually they said yes, I havesome friends.
Yes, my spouse has some friends.
No, we don't have friends.
Wow, that was the most oftenregistered response.
There was more no.
It's already hard to havecouple friends when you're a
(17:28):
couple, I mean those folks whoare in a relationship with
someone.
It's hard to do that anyway,let alone when you're a clergy
couple.
I mean you just increased thedegree of difficulty, times or
whatever.
So that was something we werewondering about.
But our data, yeah, that's whatit looks like.
(17:48):
So those two are sort ofrelated, I guess.
And then I think the workitself that goes back to the
first thing we were talkingabout from this larger study
that was done at Notre Dameabout the work itself is
satisfying, but it's sooverwhelming it's not very
healthy.
(18:09):
I mean, that's sort of the one,two, three.
Yeah.
So that's pretty sounds prettyconsistent to me.
I guess is what I would say inresponse.
Valerie Ling (18:16):
Well, but the apostle Paul, I mean, he
probably didn't have any couplefriends and his work stress was
probably huge.
So what's our problem, Donald?
Donald Guthrie (18:29):
Well, our problem is, we're human beings
For whom isolation is deadly, Infact.
In fact, one of our primaryfindings in our most recent our,
my colleagues and my mostrecent research is that we call
ministry tensions, and the firstbig one is is isolation and
(18:50):
connection, and if you'reisolated, you basically die
might die slowly, but you dieand if you're connected, you
live.
Now, as you know, every singlestudy we're ever going to do is
going to have, is going to findthat out.
It's going to find that out forolder folks and younger folks
and everybody in between.
Valerie Ling (19:06):
Absolutely.
Donald Guthrie (19:07):
But they did tell us that and they gave us
reasons why and they illustratedit in our focus groups and said
when I am connected I am alive.
When I'm connected in formal,non-formal, informal ways, you
know, all up and down inrelationships it didn't have to
be close confidant friends.
It just was a sense ofconnection both sort of in the
(19:31):
family and then with confidants,and then with allies, and then
out even to the congregation andthen beyond the congregation
and the community.
We had so many pastors tell usthat some of their closest
friends were not just outsidetheir church but they weren't
even Christians.
They said that they it wastheir neighbor or it was someone
(19:55):
in a workout place or a socialclub that they belong to, that
they had to kind of get out allthe way outside the system.
And that's where they foundpersonal relationships and
connections and couplerelationships and connections.
I thought that was very telling.
At least that was reflected inour most recent research here.
Valerie Ling (20:19):
Yeah, as we are talking, I'm just reflecting on
how I actually think, from whatwe know in psychology at the
moment, that there are twothings that are endemic across
human beings, regardless of whatclinical presentations they
come emotional exhaustion andloneliness, and I think those
(20:39):
two things are actually quiteconnected, and so it's almost
like okay, you've got a baseline.
Most people in the world feelemotionally exhausted and lonely
for lots of reasons.
Society has changed, the way wecommunicate has changed, the
way we do work has changed.
And then you put a vocationalhazard, which is being in
ministry, which furtheralienates and isolates you.
(21:02):
I'm curious about the coupleloneliness.
I've not actually thought aboutthis.
What are the consequences ofthat Meaning that they're so
isolated, not just individually,but what would be the outcomes
of couples themselves not havinga couple friends?
Donald Guthrie (21:19):
Yeah, a couple things there.
Well, I was going to say, andon top of everything you just
said, there was this smallpandemic that went around the
world.
Yes, they exacerbated andaccelerated all this, of course.
Well, the couple thing.
One of the things that theytold us was the spouse.
(21:43):
I'll put it this way the spousewho is flourishing Okay, the
clergy spouse who is flourishingis flourishing because they
have friends outside the churchand they work outside the church
.
I'm sorry they work outside thehome.
I'm sorry they have friendsoutside the church and they work
outside the home.
If you have those two thingspretty strong correlation with,
(22:11):
they will be flourishing.
That does not mean that they'renot active in the church.
It doesn't mean they have enemy,it doesn't mean any of that.
It's just that those two thingspop up all over the place.
But, like I said earlier, if itcomes down to where are our
friends and who are friends,they're still pretty lonely as
(22:32):
couples, and when they aren'tlonely it's usually because the
spouse has some outsideactivities.
They're not just bound to thechurch but they're connected in
some ways to broader groups ofpeople.
Valerie Ling (22:47):
Well, donald, this is dangerous findings, because
one of the more I suppose whatwe would assume is that couples
would be doing ministry together, that very often the spouse
doesn't have work outside of thehome.
You know you are in community,your friends are your church.
How does that relate, then, tohow we would typically approach
(23:11):
doing ministry as a couple?
Donald Guthrie (23:13):
I think it's tipped.
I think the two for assumptionis gone, whether that was ever
spoken or unspoken.
When I say what I just said atpastor couple retreats, which we
do, quite a few of the spousesjust want to say, okay, we're
(23:36):
just going to stop everythingand talk about this now for a
while.
So everybody just getcomfortable, because they can't
believe we've said this out loudand they perceive it's even
half of a safe space to talkabout it.
They want to talk about it.
Wow, they just have not beenable to.
They just have not found wherethey can talk about this out
loud.
I think they're so desperatefor connection.
Valerie Ling (23:59):
Yes.
Donald Guthrie (24:00):
They've gone, they've indicated they've gone
looking They've.
I mean they're happily married.
I mean that's the other thingabout this Interesting.
The marriage is strong.
They've indicated selfreporting but they've indicated
we're good together.
We just we just need friends,we just need connections.
And the spouses said I can'twait.
(24:22):
Yeah.
I need help, I can't, I can'texist this way.
At least the pastor has someother, probably pastor friends.
Yeah.
Spouse.
They're not waiting aroundanymore and they're not, they're
not allowing, in a sensethey're not allowing the church
to say this is not a twofer, youdon't get me because you got
(24:46):
the pastor.
Yeah, I think it's a big twoand it's, it's becoming.
I would, I would observe.
Now, I don't, I can't tracethis demographically, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it wasalso generational.
That wouldn't surprise me atall, and by generational I'm I'm
thinking maybe it's certainlyif I had to put an age on a 40
(25:10):
and younger, and it might be, itmight be a little older than
that.
Now I would say no way, don'tassume, if you get me, you get
the spouse.
Valerie Ling (25:23):
Wow, stay tuned on that, on that front, yeah, yeah
, it's pretty pronounced.
Donald Guthrie (25:31):
I mean it's, it's not, it's no longer sort of
a whisper, I would say it's ashout.
Valerie Ling (25:36):
Yeah, I'll I.
I wonder what that, what thelevel of thinking?
Donald Guthrie (25:41):
in.
Valerie Ling (25:41):
Australia is.
I'd be curious.
I think one of the things we doneed to do is we need to do
exactly the same things thatwe're doing with our clergy and
ask actually ask the kids andask spouses and what's happening
in their world.
I think we'll get a lot ofinformation there.
Donald Guthrie (25:59):
I really agree.
We we are just beginning in theStates to get to that layer.
Yeah.
Well, those two layers ofspouse and family, we know a
little bit, but not, not, not,not nearly enough.
Valerie Ling (26:14):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Donald Guthrie (26:17):
Especially on scale.
We need way more, way more datathere.
Valerie Ling (26:24):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(26:45):
Let's talk now about the otherelement which I found, which was
one of the things that I reallywanted to add or even raise in
the conversation, because, as apsychologist, when we are seeing
our ministers, we are noticingthat a sense of defectiveness
and shame, having really highstandards and perfectionism, but
(27:08):
the block gaining insight intothat is really not attending to
their own emotional life.
So we're quick to go.
This is a problem.
I'll reflect and think aboutthis and then figure out what is
the strategy to solve thisproblem.
But me as a human being, and howI'm feeling and the insight
(27:29):
that I'm gaining from myreactions and maybe and the
reactions of others, seems to bemissing Now that surface acting
.
I found a correlation withburnout.
I also found a correlation withdestructive leadership patterns
which, in my survey, if we lookat the range of being unhelpful
, inappropriate to abusive I wasreally looking at unhelpful.
(27:52):
Once it gets to the point offorceful leadership, you're
getting angry, you're blaming,you're using punishing tactics
that was linked to burnout aswell as to surface acting
emotions.
What are your thoughts andreflections on that?
Donald Guthrie (28:10):
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting finding
in your research.
I definitely see some parallelshere too to ours in the States.
There are a couple of maybedifferent ways in terms of the
(28:31):
influencers.
One would be Our folks wouldreport they may not have much
self-awareness, which wouldhopefully lead to self-care, so
they care more about others thanthemselves.
But that's nothing new.
I mean, helping helpers hasbeen around for a long time.
(28:52):
You know that that's what youdo.
Valerie Ling (28:54):
Yeah, that's foundational to how Ben out came
about, isn't it how it?
Donald Guthrie (28:58):
was, it is yeah.
Valerie Ling (28:59):
Yeah.
Donald Guthrie (29:00):
So that keeps popping up, I would say yeah.
The interesting thing would bethere's an increased awareness
and interest in attending to theneeds of the other, which is
fairly new.
I mean, it's actually apositive trend.
(29:21):
There's just not knowledge orskill.
So there's awareness andwillingness but not knowledge or
skill, so it's lagging on theI'd love to do that and I think
it's important, but I don't knowhow to start.
I don't know what to do and Idon't even know how to process
(29:43):
that myself.
Whoever I am, I don't know whyI'm just reading the Bible and I
think it's important, so Ishould probably get outside my
comfort zone, my relationalcomfort zone and so forth.
So there's again.
It's a bit of a mixed bag asfar as interest, willingness,
(30:05):
lack.
It just looks to me like it's areal jumble right now of trying
to sort this out in a way wherethey see the connectivity that
their own abiding in Christ canbring them, even as they
minister outwardly.
Valerie Ling (30:24):
Is that a formation issue or is that you
need to go and learn andpractice and do it issue?
Donald Guthrie (30:33):
Well, our folks who are trained formally, say in
Bible colleges or seminaries orsome place in formal education,
have I can say this either way,but I'll say increasingly
lacked discipleship in their ownlives before they come to get
(30:54):
formally trained.
So that's an opportunity and aproblem.
Valerie Ling (31:02):
How would you define that discipleship?
Donald Guthrie (31:06):
Well, have they had experience, exposure,
participation, let alonecontribution experience in a
local church?
I mean, it's just that basiclevel.
Have they had anybody in theirlives as spiritual mentors?
Have they been in groups ofpeers and or generational mix of
(31:33):
folk?
So you'd have a variety ofspiritually mature, spiritually
mature all jumbled together thatwould be obviously part of the
church, but not in a localchurch.
They would be perhaps a groupover here, a Bible study here.
Do you, or fewer of them, haveall three of those, maybe not
(31:54):
even one, as they come to getformally trained?
So we cannot assume not onlywe've not been able to assume a
basic level of Bible knowledgefor a while, but now you cannot
assume even any sort of level ofdepth of maturity in Christ,
(32:15):
understanding of the localchurch, anything like that.
So our challenge is to payattention to formation, to your
point, more and more and more,and hold hands, join hands with
the local churches even aroundus here I mean in my context as
well as our other sister schoolsand other churches to kind of
(32:40):
fill that vacuum and not put thetwo against each other, not put
the formal education, trainingand the local church preparation
and formation, but more andmore.
Combine those two, because it'snow desperately needed.
Valerie Ling (32:53):
Right.
So this makes me think of whatwe experienced in our industry
psychologists.
We are actually finding verysimilarly.
Early career psychologistsreally haven't experienced
relationships themselves.
They've been highly academic.
They're usually clever andhelpful people, but being
(33:19):
exposed to unpacking your ownbrokenness, being exposed to
brokenness, many of our earlycareer psychologists actually
feel intimidated by some of theclinical issues we see domestic
violence, substance abuse,children.
It causes them to actuallyattrition from our profession.
So I'm wondering there's theissue of maybe spiritual
(33:42):
formation, but is theresomething about our emotional
formation as well?
Coming into ministry, justinteracting in that space?
What are your thoughts?
Donald Guthrie (33:52):
Yeah for sure.
Part of a bigger story going onhere, as well, as what I
understand around the world, isthe increasing levels of pretty
significant mental healthstruggles, and we've certainly
experienced that, I know.
Just boiling it down to ourcontext here, just you name it
(34:15):
yeah, it's just overwhelming,it's overwhelming our system.
I just personally, I feel likeI just need to go back to school
and get a counseling degreethese days Because of the level
of challenge with just mentalhealth issues that our folk have
(34:35):
, and it's not just a few, butit's more.
And it's not just more, butit's more depth of their issues,
more of their challenges.
So that's, I'd say that's adeveloping story that we're all
trying to figure out how toaddress, how to help, how to
come alongside.
(34:56):
The days are long gone when Ican just deliver content and say
, okay, I'm finished, I did myjob.
If you're in theologicaleducation here, that's just our
movement I would say happily ismoving more and more towards,
like I said earlier, this arm inarm with the church, so that we
accept some more responsibilityand then act on the
(35:17):
responsibility about formation,not just information and skill
building.
That is definitely the movement, that is definitely the
conversation, that's definitelythe way our standards of
accreditation have moved justthe last few years.
So we're all still getting usedto the shift.
(35:39):
I would say it's a healthyshift.
But you're asking a lot offolks who are both trained in a
particular way to say, okay, nowwe're going to have to add to
this Even more.
That's a big lift, that's a bigask.
It speaks to the work stress.
It speaks really to the workstress.
Valerie Ling (36:04):
The complexity of being in a pastor has grown,
inclusive of the mental healthburden that comes with the role.
Yes, here is about your thoughtsabout emotional awareness.
So one of the things that mystudy and probably other studies
have found is that pastors canbelieve that they're
(36:26):
self-reflective, but thereflection doesn't necessarily
lead to insight, particularlyself-insight as to what does
this tell me about me?
How does this inform my strongreactions and doesn't
necessarily build insight into,and why would that person have
(36:47):
reacted that way?
Are you finding similar thingsself-reflection to self-insight,
emotional awareness?
Donald Guthrie (36:58):
I would say yes and no again.
So, yes, increasedself-awareness, but not
necessarily yet towards healthyapplication of the insight that
would be gained.
So, in other words, there's amiddle stopping place where, I
(37:20):
would say, again positively,more are willing to and are
seeking professional counselingas a result of this raised
awareness.
So they realize part of their,whether it just be coping with
some things they need to copewith, dealing with things they
need to deal with, all the wayto pretty substantial healing
(37:44):
needed.
They need help, and they'reincreasingly willing to ask for
the help, which, again, I thinkis a very positive development.
I think it's just maybe goingto start turning into
self-awareness, to, like yousaid, insight and then being
able to help others.
(38:04):
I would say, just observingmyself.
That's what I would hope.
That would be the trajectorythat the Lord would kind of lead
to, but there's definitely moreawareness and there's
definitely more willingness toseek help.
It looks to me, though, like thejury is still out as far as.
(38:25):
Okay, what would be the fruit?
Because some of them might justsay, okay, that means I just am
out, not because they're notthe older, because they're not
increasing their ownself-awareness and the insight
that comes with that.
But they just realize theycan't take that pressure, they
can't take the like we saidearlier, the blowback or
(38:47):
whatever it is, or they mightre-engage in a way that's even
healthier, stronger, moreconnected and so forth.
I don't think we know what theanswer that's going to be.
I think it's too soon to say.
Valerie Ling (39:02):
In Australia there is quite a lot of conversation
about putting some support roles.
So we've got coaching,mentoring and now a pastoral
supervision is going to becomesomething that everybody will
have.
All clergy will have to do.
Donald Guthrie (39:20):
Okay.
Valerie Ling (39:20):
What are your thoughts about these formalized
roles and say, okay, everypastor needs to have a mentor, a
coach, a pastoral supervisor,and only seek help from a
therapist if you really reallyneed it.
What are your thoughts?
Donald Guthrie (39:35):
Wow, I'd say that's a lot of structure and I
would say, helpful.
Structure is good overall.
I mean, some fellowships andsome denominations have that
baked into their systems and Ithink their pastors do better
because they have those layersof connectivity and support.
The ones who don't aren't.
(40:00):
It's pretty simple If thestructure isn't there to bring
support, then it's on them andthat's again that's a lot to ask
to sort of make up this notjust a development plan but a
care package and not just that.
But I mean, my goodness, whendid we ever help them learn how
(40:23):
to do any of this?
If we're just saying, okay, bewarm and well fed off, you go,
especially from our schools, Idon't know how they're going to
do it and they aren't.
So I like the idea of thestructure, but I guess I would
advocate and I do advocate orprofessional counseling being
(40:46):
part of the team.
Valerie Ling (40:47):
That's interesting .
Donald Guthrie (40:48):
Part of the approach Just bake it in, just
assume it.
Valerie Ling (40:53):
And even if it's just for checkup.
Donald Guthrie (40:57):
I'm sorry.
What'd you say?
Valerie Ling (40:58):
What would that look like, donald?
What does that look like tohave more professional
counseling baked in?
Donald Guthrie (41:04):
Well, I think I mean I would say in my own
formal education context, it'sus helping our students learn
how to evaluate, interview, lookup, network and say this is
non-negotiable the answer to whois on your team ongoing Lee is
(41:27):
a professional counselors onyour team.
Just assume it and just trainthem that way and send them out
that way so that they don't haveto go through whatever they go
through to get to the pointwhere they're desperate and you
have to look around and findsomebody.
We ought to build networks veryintentionally so that we can
help them with that on the frontend, the pre-service end, as
(41:49):
they go into and continue intheir ministry.
Valerie Ling (41:52):
I would say You've actually given me something to
think about, because this isalso lacking in our profession.
It used to be thatpsychologists were formed by
having therapy while we wentthrough our formal degree.
Whether we were in distress ornot, it was actually considered
to be compulsory that you had toreceive it, and why it was the
(42:13):
third eye, even if you're notfeeling anything, it was just
opening up the landscape in theworld so that as you went out
and interacted with other peopleAm I hearing you say that it's
almost like right now?
I think in Australia we put theprofessional counseling right
at the tail end.
When things are starting toshow signs of breaking, you're
(42:34):
saying that let's bring it rightup the front.
Donald Guthrie (42:38):
Yes, so that it's both preventative and it's
sort of the, I guess, analogousto a well person visit with your
doctor.
I don't just go to the doctorwhen I feel terrible or when I
need help or whatever.
I go, because I go, I get acheck up and I get a check in
(42:59):
and I have a conversation.
Why can't we think that wayabout our mental health as well?
I think the stigma it's nottotally gone in our context, but
it's been much diminished.
I would say, praise the Lord,but it still isn't.
(43:20):
I'll go when I'm in trouble.
It's still the mentality I'mlike don't wait till you're in
trouble.
Valerie Ling (43:26):
Yeah, I think in Australia, at least from my
context, I think we've shit thedoll.
I used to see them.
I used to see ministers come inwhen they're on the stretcher
Right now stretcher wheel chairnot quite there anymore we are
seeing them more coming in whenthey've got a raised temperature
, which is really helpful, butI'm going to spend a lot of
(43:48):
happy time contemplating,pushing for okay.
Well, why don't we actually justput counselling right in the
beginning?
Sure, so I would love to finishwith your take homes for
everything that we've talkedabout.
So we've talked about theloneliness and the isolation.
We've talked about theformation issues as well.
(44:15):
We've talked about the way thatthe ministry work role has been
structured now that it'sunbearable.
We've talked about levels ofconflict in the church.
If you had one thing that youwould say to a pastor their
family in the midst of all ofthat, what would be one thing
(44:37):
that someone in ministry can doright now, after listening to us
?
Donald Guthrie (44:43):
Yeah, this is a little bit of a different taken
a little bit newer or taken.
I think it's one of the mostpromising things I've read about
in the research and it comesfrom a study that same study
from Notre Dame, so far thelargest done in the states, and
it tapped into this literaturecalled similar others, and I
(45:03):
think it has a lot of promise.
Because what did we say is partof the biggest, what's the
biggest problem?
Connectivity with others, justsimply.
Well, part of the issue is canyou find those folks in your
system?
Oh, maybe, maybe not.
You can only go so far and sodeep.
(45:24):
Well, how do you find themoutside the system?
Well, this research indicatesthat maybe there's this middle
way of similar others.
So, for example, for a pastor,a similar other would be
somebody like you.
It would be somebody in thehelping professions that knows
enough about helping but isn't apastor but is a social worker
or a professional psychologistor an educator or a doc or a
(45:46):
nurse or a hospice caregiver.
Well, what if we said to thehelping professionals you guys
have enough in common that youcould really help one another
Because, as you all know,helping the helpers is really
challenging.
And if each profession tries tocome up with its own categories
of helping their helpers, I mean, that's a good thing, and they
(46:07):
are.
But what if we cross-pollinatedtoo?
What if we said to the helpershey, you know, why can't the
helpers help the helpers even asthey help others?
I'm very interested in thatdevelopment.
I'll put it that way.
I think there's a lot of promisethere and when I've shared that
(46:29):
just in the last, it's been inthe last little while, maybe the
last year or two, when I sharethat with folk both in the
pastorate but then also outsidethe pastorate just my other
colleague, friends in thehelping professions, they go.
Oh, I think there's somethingto that.
Valerie Ling (46:45):
Amazing.
Donald Guthrie (46:46):
So I'm encouraged by that.
I personally would like to do alittle more research in that
area because I think there's somuch promise there.
So that's like I said, that'srelatively a new thing on the
horizon here, but I thinkthere's some promise.
Maybe we can all think aboutthat together.
Valerie Ling (47:01):
Really and what is one thing you would hope?
A church listening.
You know, if there's a pastor,there's a church, a church
listening in.
What one thing you'd like forthem to take away that they
might think about or do fromlistening, from this?
Donald Guthrie (47:19):
Sure, I think the local church can be a huge
help to pastors and theirfamilies and obviously they need
to pray for them regularly.
They need to treat them ashuman beings.
It's hard, if not impossible,for a pastor to never be the
pastor at the store in the lawnmowing the grass.
(47:40):
So being a human being is apretty important thing to be.
How can we encourage them tohave a life and not just be a
24-hour, seven-day a week?
Your role is your identity.
How can we help ourcongregations understand that's
just not healthy.
That's not healthy for anybodyand it's not healthy for our
(48:03):
pastors to confuse identity withrole.
So how can we come alongsideand pray for and help and have a
bite to eat and just do prettymundane and everyday things with
them so we can remind ourselvesand the pastor that we're human
beings together here.
We're Christians together here,Not just this hierarchy of
(48:25):
callings where the pastor isabove and beyond and better be
holier than us, and thatfoolishness.
I think we just have to learn anew language and learn a new
way of relating to those folks.
This is supportive and lovingand helpful and encouraging.
Valerie Ling (48:43):
And, finally, policymakers people sitting in
the denominations listening tothis in terms of thinking about
how do we look at the workcontext, job design, the
supports that we have.
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with?
Donald Guthrie (49:03):
Well, I think we need to work on our curriculum
to make it more coherent in ourformal education.
I'm thinking about educationfirst, but I think we need a lot
of help making the curriculumcoherent so that we don't
separate the person and theskill building and the knowledge
(49:23):
base, but bring together the nobe do, because that's who we
have in front of our faces as weteach and train and equip.
These are whole people.
Let's treat them as wholepeople and let's treat them as
whole people all the way throughthe curriculum.
So that's one thing I'd say theformal education folk like
myself, Denominationally I thinkthere's a real opportunity to
(49:45):
link arms with our educationalinstitutions.
We've got to find new andcreative ways to do it.
Some folk are advocating sort ofa hospital residency model
which is intriguing fortheological education.
Some folks are certainly tryingto beef up their internship
(50:10):
opportunities even in the midstof formal schooling.
I think all those things needto continue to be tried, paid
attention to, captured, reported.
If anybody finds some water,share it with somebody else.
I mean, I think it's all handson deck at all the layers of the
systems in which we findourselves.
Valerie Ling (50:36):
Thank you so much for spending your time with me.
It's been so rewarding and soenriching and, I think, just
encouraging.
Just like you said, one body inChrist, for His glory, for His
kingdom, and so the wordcontinues to be proclaimed that
we are able to dialogue, so Ireally thank you, professor
(50:57):
Donald Guthrie, for spendingyour time today.
Donald Guthrie (51:00):
A real delight to see you again.
Valerie, Take care.
Valerie Ling (51:05):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
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