#42 Marko Babac: From Courts to Casinos: The Unforeseen Adventures of a Tennis Lover

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, all right, welcome back to another episode
of the Clever Angle podcast isepisode 42.
And I have coach Marco Babicand he's a local tennis coach in
the community that I personallywork with and my brother works
with as well.
So, marco, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well, thanks a lot, tevin.
I was very excited when you,when we started talking about
that you're doing podcasts,because I really enjoyed this
kind of stuff.
You know, talking about certainthings in life, how you end up
there, how are me and youtalking right now?
It's just, life is sointeresting.
It can take you so manydifferent paths and for me, it's
definitely it's a blessing forme to, to to be alive, basically

(00:43):
what I where I grew up and howeverything happened, and and to
be here and running twobusinesses now in in United
States.
It's really, like I said, it'sit's a blessing.
So I appreciate you inviting meon.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
No, absolutely.
Have you ever been on a podcastbefore?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, yeah, I've been on a couple of podcasts, but
nothing, nothing too big oranything like that.
I had some people that wantedto hear the story where I come
from.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
So, yeah, well, I definitelywant to dive directly into your
origin story.
So where did you grow up andwhere are you originally from?

Speaker 2 (01:16):
So, I grew up in.
It was ex Yugoslavia.
In the nineties, If you heardof it.
We had major issues withhyperinflation, civil war going
on and we split in different.
Basically, all the statesbecame countries.
We didn't have as many statesas you know, for instance,
United States, but it was still,I believe, six or seven, I

(01:38):
forget.
It's been now close to 25, 30years since I left and they all
became countries and this is.
It was Croatia where I grew up.
It was on the coast of Croatia.
If anybody on your channel,including yourself, if you
remember, for instance, Bullsfrom the nineties, Tony Kukoc,
is from where I'm from.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, dino Rajak.
He played the center for theCeltics At the same time Kukoc
was playing.
And then you know, a lot ofbasketball players that played
in NBA comes from that region ofex Yugoslavia, like, for
instance, rajen Petrovic.
He played for the Nets.
If you remember, he died in acar crash, unfortunately
somewhere in Germany, and thereis a bunch of players that come

(02:22):
from there.
So a lot of people would know,especially in earlier days when
Jordan still played.
If you mentioned Tony Kukoc,everybody would know Croatia,
because that's because a lot ofpeople wouldn't even know where
Croatia is.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
So yeah, Are you familiar with the basketball
player I just I forgot tomention him.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
of course he played for the Sacramento Kings.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yes, yeah, yeah, he was one of the guys that during
the 2000s Lakers series, thatwhen he played with Chris Weber
and Lottie Divock and Mike Bibbyand all them.
That was a king same that Iremember watching and I think
his son is in the basketball now, but he was an incredible three
point shooter.
And that's when I think ofpeople that are, you know, not

(03:04):
from the United States he's oneof the people I think of first.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so I can't believe I forgot Divas and him.
So Yakovic was actually my son,had his jersey with Kings
somewhere out there.
I got to find it to pass on forsome couple of younger ones.
I got, but yes, with ChrisWeber.
I remember Mike Bibby, you'reright.
Who else was on that team?
That was, that was a fun team.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, if it wasn't for Shaq and Kobe, they
definitely would have got achampionship.
I think Doug Christie was onthat team.
It was my baby, doug.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
I remember him.
Yes, I followed a lot of sports.
I wanted those guys that I'mprobably the only I'm not going
to say the only, but one of thefew European guys especially my
age coming in at like 18 when Ishowed up that that follows NFL
and college football Like I.
I I can break down plays likeyou know it's.

(03:58):
I just love the game, I lovethe competition of any sport.
So I've been following sportsBasically.
I've been in it myself and I'vebeen following it my whole life
, from boxing to UFC, I mean youname it.
But I'm a really big fan of thenineties sports, though I have
not been following much of NBA,like I wouldn't even able to
tell you last maybe 10 years whowon so many championships.

(04:21):
But if you're me and you starttalking back like nineties or
maybe even early 2000, I wasreally following a lot more.
I thought the game was a lotmore fun back then.
It was more quality, I think.
Overall tennis, I really thinkthe nineties was the best, best
competition when you look atAgassi, samperas and those.

(04:43):
Those that's just, like I said,from my perspective, what I
enjoyed watching.
I love to watch Ali fight, eventhough there was a little bit,
definitely before me.
But then going into Tyson, Iremember in Europe as kids
because it's big time change,whatever the time, tyson thought
it would be one guy in the townthat would have the game, the
fight on and we would stay up.

(05:05):
If it's like four AM, we can be12 years old, it did not matter
.
These old school Europeanswould smoke cigarettes and the
whole room, I remember, would befilled with smoke and drinks
and everybody would watch Tysonfight, like with Holyfield and
all that.
So I really, like I said, I'mkind of a nineties sports junkie

(05:26):
.
That's me.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
No, absolutely, and I definitely resonate with that a
lot too, because I'm a DetroitPistons fan.
Obviously the 80s and 90sPistons were a little bit before
my time, but I've doneextensive research on that time
and how physical the games wereand back with when the Lakers in
the late 80s and the Celticsand then obviously you had the

(05:49):
Bulls in the 90s were prettydominant.
In the 90s, yeah, the Jazz wasin there for a year and then the
Spurs were kind of at the turnof the century.
That's right.
Yeah, you had Tim Duncan andDavid Robinson and all of them.
So I've been a huge basketballfan, even before tennis.

(06:10):
You know, nba is something thatI've followed pretty much my
whole life and then I got intofootball and then tennis is
something that you know a newlove of mine.
But it's interesting that youkind of resonate with the
underway when you said that youkind of just been a sports lover
and as I get older I start toappreciate all types of
competition.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes, Like I remember about 15 years ago I would go
and on the binge watch with Ithink it was Steve Stable or
something like that.
It was the ESPN archives thatwould go into, you know, as you
know, I'm a Bears fan, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Playing tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Right, because I grew up which I'll tell my story in
a little bit how I ended upthere and where I'm at now and
what happened in between.
But yeah, with the Lions andall of that, back in the day
with the Bears and all thecompetition and looking in old
school when Peyton was runningback and you know, the Bears
obviously had that once SuperBowl, which was, like it seems,

(07:10):
10,000 years ago.
But we're so proud of thatstill from the 80s and talk
about it every day.
But man, that was.
I enjoy watching those oldschool games on that Steve
Stable I think that's how Ipronounce his name, I think he
passed and that and that showhasn't been on for a while, but
I love to watch, like PittsburghSteelers against Ravens in the

(07:32):
snow, like I liked a type of a10-3 type of a game in the snow
yeah.
Like I loved, like Ray Lewis'sintensity on the field Bears
defense back in the day Iremember Matt Forte when I
watched the game.
I might have seen that one livebecause I lived in the city

(07:52):
actually of Chicago.
I can hear from Soldier Fieldwhere I live like we would be a
touchdown if I was not at thegame.
And then when he would getpopped by, let's say, vikings
were in town or the Packers orthe Lions and you know for the
NFC North Riverly, and he wouldget popped and I and I hear it
in that cold, you know, inJanuary, right, and I said how

(08:13):
is he holding on to the football?
Like there is no way, like thisguy would go five feet off the
ground in the in the ice cold,you know turf, and he would land
on his head, almost helmetshoulder, and he gets up and
just picks up another play andgets the first down.
I mean that's the kind of I'mnot saying that football is not
tough.
Now those guys there is toughas anyone.

(08:34):
I just don't think it's noteven comparable and this is
obviously up to debate.
Some people may say no, it's way.
In my perspective, in mypersonal opinion, it's not even
close.
And they change so many rulesthat I don't want to see people
get hurt by any means, likeconcussion, broken neck.
I don't.
I'm not saying I want to see aguy hurt to make it entertaining

(08:55):
, but their job is to hurtpeople.
That's what their job is as afootball player.
They're supposed to be notgoing to break your knee but
they're.
The harder they hit, the morechances of you dislodging the
football or whatever it is tocause a fumble and recover it.
If you give a guy a little lickon the neck, he's just going to

(09:15):
look at you and score atouchdown every time and I think
the game has turned so much.
But I don't want to digressfrom you know to talk about
football the whole time or NBA.
But it's overall.
Today's society, I thinkoverall, has changed so much
over the past 20, 30 years.
I think people in generalbecame a lot softer in general.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, that's what.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
I noticed.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
You know you're absolutely right and you know we
could definitely have some goodconversations about the NFC
North and I know that they justcame out with a documentary
about Barry Sanders.
I was watching that the otherday and talking about the 90s
lines and how much buzz that wasaround the lines at that point.
And you know, football wassomething that I honestly didn't
get really into until probablylike the end of high school,

(10:03):
like I just never really wasinterested in the game.
I was focused mostly onbasketball and track.
That's where my athleticbackground is in.
So I was watching a lot of NBA,I was watching a lot of college
basketball and you know I wasfocusing on track.
But you know, it's like when Idiscovered football, I felt like
I was missing out on somethingfor, you know, for a good amount

(10:25):
of time, and I felt that waywith tennis.
So, being in Europe, being aEuropean, how did you when was
your first introduction to likesome of the more American sports
like basketball and football?

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Okay, well, I was just going to get into that to
tie it up with.
Well, yeah, there is a littleconstruction here going on.
I showed up, basically to myfriend's house that was not
friend at the time, yet it wasthe connection through the
priest that ended up getting allmy paperwork to leave war where
I was living.

(10:57):
So he said, oh, we're going tothis family.
They speak a language.
They got three sons, right,they're all close to your age,
some of them are a little older.
So I was pretty excited becauseI knew how to communicate.
I can put sentences together inEnglish, you know, but I was
not comfortable hanging out with, you know, american people that

(11:18):
were born here, because I wouldnot understand what they're
saying.
Like it would take me a whileto put, to connect all the dots,
especially if there is slang,different type of dialect,
accent, I mean from, you know,down south.
Or I ended up working in acasino with a lot of people that
I did not understand the wordthey say because of the way they
pronounce things.

(11:39):
So it was very hard for me.
So I was very excited to meetthese guys that would speak.
They were born in the UnitedStates but they was fluent in
Croatian or Serbian, right.
So when we showed up we playedsome ping pong, which I play
very competitively too, and theywere really good.
So I found that veryentertaining.
I was kind of in the machineright away because there is

(12:00):
competition, because that's allI basically know how to do is
compete and like I enjoy doing.
That's what I meant to say andwe had a great time.
And they said, oh, we got theBears Lions game, talking about
various standards, right.
And I said, what is that Like?
What are we going to watch?
And they said, well, it'sAmerican football.

(12:20):
And I was totally making jokesout of that, like it's basically
soccer.
Don't mess with soccer.
If you're European soccer,that's like it.
You know, there is no secondthing to soccer when it comes to
it.
Like what, rugby, football?
No, it's soccer, right.
So I got there and I had no ideawhat was going on.
I did not know what the firstdown was.
They had a cool setup back inthe day, those old TVs, and you

(12:44):
know they were not flat screensand I thought it was like the
coolest thing I've seen.
You know, the ground, with thebulky part in the back, with
some surround sound, and we'rewatching Lions Bears game, right
, and it was in Chicago atSoldier Field, and Sanders, of
course, was the running back atthe time I forget for the QB was
I'll think of it in a second.

(13:07):
This was 1996, I believe Right,and I said why is everybody
screaming?
This guy just ran for one yardand everybody screaming like the
game was won or something.
But I did not understand.
It was fourth and one and oneof them I forgot was it the
Bears or the Lions.
They needed that one yard tobasically ice the game for, to

(13:30):
run the clock out now, right,because it was a closed game.
And I asked them what is thefirst down, second down?
It took about five minutes andI immediately fell in love with
the game because I understoodwhat it takes to hold on to the
football versus giving it away,just the basic rule.
And that's how I became,because they were all living in

(13:52):
that area in Chicago and Indianaborder and everybody was either
Notre Dame fan for collegefootball or the Bears fan.
There was some cold fans inbetween because it was a border
of Indiana.
I don't know if you heard ofGary, indiana, michael Jackson
was born there.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, Ikind of lived in that area close
to Gary.
So this is it was about 45minutes to actually downtown

(14:15):
Chicago and that's where I endedup moving from that Indiana
Illinois area back to not backbut in the in the middle of the
city, and that's when I was ableto get to more games and all
that and meet a lot more Bearsfans, because now I was right
there.
So that's how that whole thinghappened.
So it was.
It was basically religion forme.
It was a big deal to watch NFLgames and college was a little

(14:37):
bit later.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
No, that's awesome.
So we talked about how you gotinto that and when did you start
.
When did you start getting inthe tennis?

Speaker 2 (14:51):
So tennis, I played soccer and I played basketball
as as a kid growing up in Europe, in Croatia.
But my dad told me one day, andI'll never forget that he said
you're pretty good at basketball, but you're just, you're just
not that good and soccer isbasically just not your thing,

(15:12):
which which I agreed on.
So it was kind of like a coldhard fact because I was so
competitive.
All my buddies were playingsoccer and basketball.
So we were kind of trying tofigure out which sport I would
take on and a war started tohappen.
We tried to like get outsideeven though we were not supposed
to.
So it was like this old parkinglot and we set up some really

(15:36):
ugly looking net, whatever.
We found One of those like ifyou ever seen those Idaho
potatoes, the bags that holdyeah, yeah yeah.
So we had some of those we foundin like in the trash and we put
like two posts on the oldparking lot and we had these.
We had the Sponge Ball, kind oflike a softball, and some
plastic rackets that somesomebody had and we started

(15:58):
playing.
So I was about 10 and I justhonestly, as soon as I picked up
that racket and started playing, I just fell in love with it.
It did not take too long for meto to to say this is going to
be the sport I want to do.
But I understood the differencebetween I'm pretty good with

(16:18):
that softball because you have alot more time to set up for the
shots.
But then the war kind of sloweddown a little bit at certain
months and we were looking forsome tennis courts and the coach
that was trying to scramble,you know, to find some money to
pay for the lesson and it wasthe red clay, kind of like when
you watch French Open Red Playnot hard, true, the one that's

(16:41):
great, it's more like it lookslike like dirt.
You know what I'm talking aboutthe actual red.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So how old are you when youfinally found tennis?

Speaker 2 (16:55):
It was between 10 and 12.
So it sounds like that waspretty young.
But for tennis to get at anykind of better level, like
college type of tennis and stuff, 10, 12 is a little late.
It's possible.
I mean, you look at Yanik'scenter nowadays I forget what
other sport he played.
He started tennis even rightaround that age when I'm talking

(17:17):
about.
So it's possible.
But it's to get really up there, right.
So yeah, it was between 10 and12.
And then I started doinglessons and he was on play
courts and, like I said, I justdevelop passion.
I think what really helped mewas playing with that softball
on that parking lot to read theball, be able to set up, and
then footwork from basketballand soccer really helped for me

(17:40):
to get there.
I was not the fastest guy, buta lot faster than now Put it
that way Like it was easy for meto move around the court all
day long and then it just becamethat was it.
So I started competing in thetournaments but between the war
going on and everything that wewent through, it wasn't very
steady, so it would be monthsthat I would not even pick up a

(18:02):
racket.
So I won a couple of nationaltournaments and all that.
I was playing a lot of singles.
I was never really into doublesas much, but it was some double
stuff.
So tennis just started to be athing.
And this is where I can tie itinto how it happened in the
United States.
What has happened?
I had a chance to possibly I'mnot saying I would have if the

(18:23):
war wasn't going on to play atthe really high college level,
maybe pro possibly.
But I knew without training asmuch as I should, there was no
way.
So I kind of had a really badtaste in my mouth from tennis
because all of that was kind oftaken from me because of the war
, the opportunity, whether it'sjust college or anything more

(18:45):
than that, right.
So when I came to United StatesI was 18 and I have not played
now for a couple of years.
There is no way I can competeat a men's higher performance
level, like a five or something.
Yeah, the way I really wantedto, because I was not training
enough.
That was.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
So you?
So you started playing tennisat 12.
When did you?
You said it was kind of off andon between that because of the
war.
So you're telling me likewithin a few years you were
already winning tournaments.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was.
I believe tennis was so naturalto me as maybe doing podcasts
for you, yeah, and a lot ofother stuff I really can't Like.
When it comes to fixing things,I'm probably the worst person
ever.
If you want me to fix yourcabinet or something, that's why
I always space somebody else.
That's why you hear somethinghappening right now, like there

(19:39):
is a lot of things I'm justreally not even interested in.
But if I find interest insomething, I kind of go all in.
That's my personality.
And it didn't take too long.
For tennis, it was not a reallyhigh level when the first one I
won, it was kind of like let'sjust call it intermediate level
for your listeners not to gointo.
What was it?
3, 0, 3, 5, blah, blah, blah.

(19:59):
It was more like intermediatelevel.
And then, two years after that,it didn't take too long, I just
developed a really big serve,even on clay.
That was it A huge forehand anda big serve.
And I was able to upset a lotof guys that were playing for
years before me.
They just did not have answersfor it.
And then I would sneak into thenet on top of that, even on
clay, I would just go in after abig forehand and I would finish

(20:21):
the points a lot quicker.
I basically played almost likea grass court tennis, which is,
as you know, serve and volleytype of fast surface on clay.
That was my plan and it reallyworked for me, like I was able
to outpower guys, outsmart themin a way, not going into their
game of you know, grinders, theyslide all day long.

(20:44):
You watch these European guysslide on the play court.
They get everything back.
You can't really beat them.
You're playing 50 rallies.
One point they get to everyshort ball.
Like every time I see a guy thatwas like five foot six and huge
legs, I said man, I'm in for afreaking brawl.

(21:04):
I mean this guy is a wall, he'sgoing to get everything back.
So I was like no, you won't.
So I was just coming in andeven though clay slows the ball
down a lot, so I would lose alot of points because of that
and some matches, because evenif you have a huge serve, it
does take away a lot of thataway from you because the clay
is the ball.

(21:24):
He's hit, loses a lot of amp ofthe ground and they have enough
time unless you clip the lineor something, and that that's
just kids.
But yeah, it's.
But again, big shot was my gameplan and I was able to keep up
with those guys that played foryears.
That's kind of what I figuredout and I stuck with it.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, so I've got a question.
So like, obviously you know alittle bit about my tennis
journey, when we went tosectionals for mixed state we
encountered a team from Georgiaand they were kind of perplexed
that we were all playing on hardcourts.
So you, apparently, in Georgiathe main surface is clay.
So what is the biggestdifference between playing on

(22:06):
clay courts, playing on hardcourts and then playing on grass
courts?

Speaker 2 (22:11):
So, like I was saying , it's really the speed of the
ball right.
You have more time on clay toset up for the shot and you can
construct points a lot betterBecause you have more time on.
Let's say, the courts that weplay on for the most part in the
United States is hard courts,just basically cement, you can
call it what it is.
The ball would Get a lot, itgoes faster, so the points

(22:36):
sometimes a lot of times, finisha lot quicker, so the speed is
a major difference.
This is, for instance, if youlook right now, what's going on
in tennis, for since PeteSampras retired and Agassi, so
two American players right.
We have not had top one in theUnited States in tennis for a

(22:59):
long time.
You're looking at Rafa, rightfrom Spain.
You look at Djokovic, serbian.
You look at Federer,switzerland, right.
Then you look at, right now,carlos Alcarez.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Spain yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Around.
I mean it's been a lot.
And why is that?
Because they learn, they knowhow to construct points.
Ok, you got the flashy Americanplayers what I mean by that
coming with huge serves, bigfour hands on hard courts.
They can't win.
On clay it's almost impossiblebecause of the ball slows down a
lot so the other guys canactually return it and once

(23:35):
Spaniard or European returns theball back into play, on play
against American players, it'svery hard for American player to
win games, let alone sets or amatch, because of the endurance
and understanding that tennis isa chess game.
You got to open up, you got tomake a shot to open up for
another play.
Like a chess game, you don'tplay your move as one move, you

(24:01):
play it as two moves ahead.
And European players, I believe, developed that and I can vouch
that from experience fromplaying on clay Because of the
longer points and being able tounderstand, to dissect opponents
, slowly make a move short ball,angle, deep ball Versus, like I

(24:21):
said, American style of tennis,which is kind of what I
implemented, without even beingin America back in the day on
clay court, Because I knew thatwas the only chance I can
possibly beat these guys at thenational level was just going
big or go home.
So that was.
And if you get hot a little bit, yeah, you can have an upset
Like what's his name?
John is there, for instance.

(24:42):
I'm sure you heard of him.
Yeah, he's like 6'11" that guy.
Yeah, yeah, he plays morebasketball.
He would serve Like he gotmaybe third, fourth round French
open.
I could be wrong on this one.
He might have madequarterfinals once and that's
when he would get hot.
Like everything would go in, hewould paint the lines.
Third was just huge.
Even on clay the guys would notbe able to return.

(25:03):
Everything was going in so hewould end up winning.
But for the most part you don'tsee many big hitters.
That's why Pete Sampras hasnever won French open, because
his serve was not a factor asmuch as it is at Wimbledon.
So to break it down, for you towin a grand slam meaning all of
them, like few players did,like Agassi did it is probably

(25:27):
one of the biggestaccomplishments in sports.
To win on clay, on grass, onhard chords, in Australia and
open, and then as well in USOpen, which, even though it's
hard chords, but some of thosesurfaces, the way the chords are

(25:47):
made, are faster or slowerdepending on how the chord was
made.
So it is very hard to completeall four slams.
You can look up real quick ifyou want, if you have a setup in
front of you, how many peopleactually won all four.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's almost you can count in one hand, yeah
absolutely Obviously, the bigthree probably have won all four
slams.
I know Rafa is the king of clayis what he's named and he was
one of the first people when Istarted to get in the tennis
that I followed because he was afellow left handed player.
So I did some research on him.

(26:24):
So I'm glad he's getting tocome back for at least one more
year.
I know he's been hurt this pastyear but we'll get into a
little bit of the conditioningof tennis because I personally
think Yokovic is going to belike undisputably the greatest
tennis player of all time, justbecause of the longevity that

(26:44):
he's being able to do to stillbe able to compete at a high
level at 35, 36 years old, whichis tough.
Tennis is a grinding body typeof game, especially in singles,
so just being able to watch himjust in the short time that I
followed tennis has been amazingto see how he's still being
able to compete with these 20,21 year old kids on any surface

(27:08):
pretty much.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, yeah, and you just touched up on those guys.
That's what I was also going tolead into as you look at, like
you just said, the big three,this it's not typical that you
hear that the top three playersin the world, going back decades
, can win on all surfaces.
You're looking at, like I said,you're going into like well, I
guess he did it A couple otherolder guys back in the day.

(27:31):
But now to look at Rafa, theway he was able to to go from
being still is, of course, kingof Clay to end up winning US
Open, to end up winningWimbledon and working on his
first serve.
He knew he needed more power towin on hardcourts and all that.
It is beyond ridiculous on somany levels and a lot of people

(27:53):
don't understand that.
They look at tennis as you justhit the ball back and forth To
set up on one of those shots,especially on hardcourts.
And the reason I say that?
Because it's hard on yourankles, on your bones, any wrong
movement, you're done OK, youtear your ACL, your MCL.
I mean it is so hard on thebody versus on play, it's softer

(28:16):
right.
And when you step and you putall your weight on that outside
leg when you load up to hit theshot as a heavy ball comes in.
Let's say from you know,djokovic is two handed backhand
and it's flat 80 miles per hour.
And for you to set up on a hardcourt to get so much leverage
of the ground to get that ballback at maybe 70 or 80 miles

(28:40):
back per hour, it is beyondincredible what they're able to
do.
It is so hot.
Yeah, it's grueling, that'swhat it is.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, and you know I never really understood tennis
as far as like a game until Istarted playing.
But then once you start playing, you start learning the basics
of tennis.
And then you watch Wimbledonand you watch some of the grand
slams and some of these othertournaments.
You realize how impressive itis to be able to do the things
that they're doing Now.

(29:15):
They make it look effortlessbecause of professionals and
then you know you go out thereand it's it's hard to even hit
with topspin, let alone do someof the shots that they're able
to hit.
So, getting back on track tokind of what you were talking
about, you're 18 years old andyou're you're in America.
You had a bad taste in yourmouth and you were going to go
into a store before we got offon.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yes, yes.
So I did not play.
I did not play for severalyears and you know when you're
18 and you did not go to schoolmuch at all.
We basically lived in thebasement outside.
Inside it was just crazy, right.
There was nothing normal,everything was not normal.

(29:57):
Right?
So you come out here to UnitedStates, yeah, I can't just go to
college because I'm not ready.
English was like I said OK, Ican understand a lot of stuff, I
can communicate, but I'm not.
You know, my academics overallwas nowhere close to keep up.
Anyone like about to graduatehigh school and go to college.
Like.
I never said what do I do,right?

(30:20):
Well, tennis was like I said II'm not going to say I hated
tennis, but it really left badtaste in my mouth.
I thought I had a chance tohave a really different life and
it wasn't meant to be.
It just didn't happen.
So I just put that on the backburner completely.
Tennis is done, I'm not evencompeting, I'm not doing
anything with it.

(30:40):
So I decided I said you knowwhat?
I'm just going to get my GED,to get some kind of you know.
So I feel like I'm doingsomething from that mess to kind
of fit in normally, like I gota diploma, at least that right.
I accomplished something right,which is kind of funny for GED.
Even that was hard for mebecause the learning concept of

(31:02):
things and to have disciplinewas not engraved in my head.
Because of the lifestyle we had.
I was basically a total loosecannon.
It was kind of like a cagedanimal.
When you let out of thebasement at that age you can
only imagine.
You know how that would bechasing women all day long,
whatever.
Hopefully my wife is notlistening.

(31:22):
Whatever I was doing, it wasnot.
I had no discipline.
So I said I'm going to get thatdone.
So what I did is I decided tojoin US military because I had
all the paperwork green card andall that and I decided to go in
.
And then when I got there I wasso immature that was not even

(31:44):
going to work for me.
Basically I was not mentallyready for it and I was supposed
to be also sent back in thatmess to be translating.
I'm like what.
So I was able to get out andthen I ended up going into.
I said maybe I turned 18.
I need to find a job now.
So military was done.
It didn't last too long, but Iserved a little bit.

(32:04):
I didn't learn much discipline.
I was, like I said, a loosecannon getting in trouble with
racing, all kinds of stupidstuff that you can name.
That's where I was right.
Just not leading into the rightdirection at all.
So it took a little bit.
I said I need to find a job tokeep me away from getting in
trouble.

(32:25):
So I got into casino business.
I started working in Gary,indiana.
That was a Trump casino,believe it or not.
That was a little boat like aship that would take from Gary
and you can kind of see theskyline of Chicago.
And it was another one next tohim.
It was majestic star, I believeit was called.
So there was a Trump casino,which was the ship, and a

(32:48):
majestic star, which was adifferent owner of the other one
.
It was both casinos, right, andI ended up working there as a
security guard, ended up workingfor as a security supervisor
for USA Pageant that washappening in Gary, which was a
lot of fun for me back whenyou're 19, 20 years old now that

(33:09):
range 18 to 20.
So I did that and I reallyenjoyed being in the casino and
the action and all that.
So I started working as adealer.
I went to school to become adealer to deal all the games
right.
So I was doing all that and,where the story come, I dealt to
Michael Jordan, scotty Pippen.
I was in a high limit room.

(33:30):
They would come in with theiryacht, they would dock in Gary
Indiana and they would go in andI thought I was a pretty good
dealer so they would put meinside the high limits where you
would make less mistakes withhigh end clients like that, and
that was kind of like reallycool.
At the time I was reallyenjoying that right Dealing to

(33:51):
Michael Jordan and he would comein more often than people
realize.
I don't know if all the truestories you know how media is,
it's hard to believe anyone.
He had these issues withgambling and all that.
I don't know if that's true ornot, but he was playing a lot
with Scotty Pippen in GaryIndiana.
So to connect this with tennis,which I think it's just kind of

(34:13):
wild, it's hard to believe someof these stories.
I was dealing one day it wasslow, you know just a regular
$25 Blackjack game and it wasthis guy that would always come
in with like a tennis outfitright, and I know tennis outfit
versus just Nike outfit.
I know exactly what I know right.
So we kind of became a littlebit of friends, even though I

(34:35):
was taking his money as a dealerfor the most part and he would
always want to make sure that Ideal to him.
And you know his name was JohnB.
We're still friends today.
And I asked him.
I said you play tennis?
He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, Icompete.
But I also have a business withmy dad like 20 minutes from

(34:57):
here in it's called BriaridgeCountry Club, close to Gary,
indiana it's monster, indiana.
And he says I'm there.
I said, oh, you know, I playeda long time and you can kind of
see where this was going.
Yeah we ended up.
We ended up getting together onthe tennis court, we ended up
going to Hilton Head Islandsjust because we knew each other,

(35:17):
just for me being the dealer.
And he says, well, if you wantto get certified ever, if you're
, you know, willing to put insome hours, I got me and my dad
have this whole camp going, andso now I'm around maybe 20 years
old at the time- I can't evenplay it.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
You haven't, still haven't been here.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
No, I did not pick up a racket, so me and him go to
Hilton Head Island that he wason the hardtru and he's been
playing on hard courts the wholetime.
He's left handed, like yourself.
Yeah they're fast kind ofannoying player gets everything
back Right and we startedplaying a little bit and I
started to feel my rhythm alittle bit and we got into.
We got into a match and I don'twant to tell the details, just

(35:57):
in case if he hears this podcasttoo much.
Let's just say I was gettingkilled because I didn't even
realize that he was left handed.
I kept hitting to his forehand,thinking it's a backhand,
that's how my mind was so out oftennis and he would just smoke
me, I would come up to the netand all that.
And I was able to adjust and,like I said, I don't want to go
into details what happened later.

(36:18):
But I kind of woke up Like thatwas a wake up call for me that I
developed passion for the gamewith my friend John B from
Chicago area right, and all of asudden I said no, I'm going to
start coaching.
I got my certification at Hiltonhead.
We had some he had some reallygood clients that would hook us
up with the house there when wewould be there, cause, you know,
it's not like I had money to doany of this.

(36:41):
I spent it all on you knowstupid stuff as a young guy and,
yeah, I got my certificationand started working with him and
I was doing and eight, nine, 10hours a day like every day, and
I just started coaching andthen I did a lot of leagues in
between down the road I startedcompeting at the five, all level

(37:01):
a lot, but it was so hard formy body as my now age is not 20
anymore we're looking at 27 or30 and you're teaching eight
hours a day and I would play atthe five all singles and doubles
and I would not be able toteach that many hours because
you know you have like theseannoying pains in your back or
shoulders starts hurting.
And you know, forearm I had someissues with my right forearm

(37:25):
and kind of like a tennis elbowtype of a deal and I just
stopped competing.
I just really focused oncoaching because I enjoyed it
and the money was good.
So it was just a no brainer andI was right back into what I
loved and had that bad taste inmy mouth that I just almost like
hated and I developed it.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, that's so interesting because you know now
that I'm trying to follow yourjourney a little bit.
It's kind of crazy when youknow you mentioned that it just
kind of came natural to you.
But to be able to take someyears off and then come back to
competing at the five all level,that just kind of blows my mind
of how are you able to do that.
So that's, that's a that's acrazy story.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
So it is, and yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
No, no, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
So I was going to say , because I was keeping, I kept
with the same strategy big serve, big forehand, come to the net
and if my timing would be alittle off I would get killed.
61, 60 sometimes, but if I'm alittle bit on, the next time I
play the same guy I win 6161.
It's over, they would not seethe ball.
So again, my yes, I took a lotof time off, but I did not need

(38:40):
to be in that big of a deadgrade, of a shape, nor that I
ever really was.
I mean, sometimes I would playa man's tournament with the same
guy.
He was definitely not a partyanimal like I am, but I would.
I would go Las Vegas tournamentmen's open, which means you can
play guys that are maybe four oryou can play guys that played

(39:01):
on tour, cause he would be25,000 championship or something
like that.
Right, I played the guys thatactually competed on tour and I
played the guys that I knew Ican win and I would come in from
staying up till five in themorning that the day before and
the match would be at eight ornine AM in Las Vegas and I would
literally go off the pokertable after parting all night
and go play tennis.

(39:22):
I mean, that's the kind of likeI was always like back in the
day, like it was no filter, nodiscipline.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean so after like a night
like that going to play tennis,did your performance suffer or
were you still able to use thesame strategy?
And where you went in somematches during that time, Same
strategy?

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I would mix it up a little bit, like, for instance,
I would hit the second serve asbig as first serve two,
sometimes because I did not wantthe points to even last two
hits, because I would not be.
I just wasn't ready to runaround that much and I would
still finish the game and I gota lot of wins because of that,
because of I was just not afraidto go big or go home.

(40:07):
So there was just kind of, in away, a crazy excuse.
Well, I really don't feel thatgreat, I don't want to run
around all day.
So I applied this method andsomehow it works.
And, pulling off offsets, Ilost a lot too.
By the way, not because of that.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, that's interesting because it kind of
goes into the you know you'rearound gambling and it just
allowed you to take more risk onthe court and not, you know,
fear of if it was going to workout or not.
Because at the recreationallevel that I'm playing right now
, you know I'm playing a lot of30, some 35, especially like on

(40:44):
the second server, like thesecond set or if they get people
get down, I see a lot of peoplekind of pull back and they want
to play safer, which you knowit doesn't really work out that
well.
And you know I'm listening toyour story and you're like, no,
I just took risk and it eitherworked out for me or you didn't.
So that's interesting that youknow that kind of translated to
your tennis game from doing highstakes poker and blackjack and

(41:07):
stuff all the time.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's just my personality.
But at the same time I've beenin situations in the tennis
match where I would get tight,okay, and I'm like we're all
human and I'm just going to tellif any of your listeners I'm
sure they are playing or tryingto play when you get like that,
when you get tight and yourracket starts to decelerate on

(41:30):
contact versus accelerate, whenyou start being scared, when you
, when you start getting scared,when you get tight, nothing
works.
You got to just let the racketaccelerate and just go with it.
Obviously, the technique is notthere.
If someone is the beginner,nothing is going to work.
But if you had days where youcan hit the ball with more pace

(41:52):
let's say the intermediate level, like a three, five ish in that
range three, oh, three, fivefor men you just got to hit the
ball.
You cannot decelerate becausethen everything goes long, it's
just a push and you can't playand you become mentally weak.
Okay, you know you're going tolose and that's the feeling that
I've had so many times and Ihad to battle those demons to

(42:15):
just hit the ball and not beafraid if it goes into the net
or out a little bit, becauseslowly I would find that rhythm
and all of a sudden the guy thatfor sure thought he had it, he
won the first, that six two.
All of a sudden we are intiebreaker and I have a chance
to win, just because I actuallylet loose.
And I'm not saying now, youknow people being crazy and hit

(42:37):
the ball a thousand miles perhour every time, especially if
the technique is not there yetyou got to have some kind of
fundamentals already put inplace that you know you can hit
a little bit more through theball and just relax, and that's
why I also like to serve andvolley, because he would get you
to move and not overthink stuff.

(42:59):
You see what I mean.
Even in singles, when you hit aserve and your body movement is
already forward as the ball iscoming at you, you don't have
time to think man, I'm, I'mgoing to lose this match or I
suck, I'm terrible.
You know the world is againstme.
All this nonsense that goesthrough players minds, I don't
care who you are.
You have that as a tennisplayer because it's a very

(43:21):
lonely, individual sport, unless, of course, you play doubles.
But then sometimes it's evenworse because you don't want to
disappoint your partner.
It's even more stress, I think,when you're on your own it's
you.
So I kind of embrace that andit shaped me up to be more like
a risk taker in a way that makessense for everything I do in

(43:42):
life.
There is no fear if, if, ifthat makes sense.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
And would you say, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
No and then no, that was it Go ahead.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, yeah, so you're coaching.
You're about 27 years old,you're playing at the five oh
level.
You mentioned earlier that youwere mostly singles.
When did you start coachingdoubles and double strategy?
Because now, especially thatI'm playing a lot, doubles is
pretty much the pre pre mirrordesignation in rec league.

(44:16):
Like you know, you play moredoubles courts.
There's a lot of leagues thatare just doubles and then
singles is kind of like a it'skind of backwards.
I rec plays more doubles andthen you know, pro players are
like singles focused and doublesis kind of on the background.
When did you start focusing onlearning and teaching doubles,
or have you always had doubles?

Speaker 2 (44:36):
So there was.
There was the gentleman in inLas Vegas.
His name is John McCauley.
He is.
If you ever end up in Las Vegas, if you're doing anything with
tennis, you have to book alesson with John McCauley.
He is Las Vegas legend.
Okay, this is the guy that Iended up in between.

(44:59):
That's why I told you premeeting there was so many things
that happened for me to bewhere I'm at right now.
It's kind of hard to connect,to connect dots, but there was
in between Chicago and where I'mat right now, there was a stop
in Las Vegas for about eightyears where I lived and I did
coach in a really big tennisfacility called Darling Tennis

(45:21):
Center and that's where I metJohn as one of the head pros and
his thing is all about backspin.
You know volleys and and thisguy is I don't know how old he
is right now he might be pushingmaybe upper fifties very fast
at the net A lot of spin.
He was a pitcher in baseball,so very hard to return his serve

(45:42):
.
I was like man this I'mwatching him against D1 college
kids on a stadium court.
Darling Tennis Center, by theway, has a stadium court where I
guess he trains with SteffiGraf.
I mean it's a beautifulfacility.
It's got 23 courts, two of themin the back, if anybody can
remember court 22,.
If you book you can see thelights of the strip, if you do
like a little later lesson orhitting.

(46:03):
It's pretty cool place andstadium court was there and I
watched John play some of theseUCLA, usc, west Coast really
good D1 school, of course and hewould win with his partner Like
he would win.
I said how is a 50 year old guybeating these monster looking
kids like in shape?

(46:24):
I mean the guy would wipe offhis sweat and he's got like well
back going on.
I'm talking like these kids arelike pure athletes, you know
like basketball player type ofalmost like a wide receiver type
of a body NFL college.
You know what I'm talking aboutVery small, absolutely yeah.
Just just amazing athletes.

(46:45):
And this guy was winning.
So I started taking notes, okay, from him.
I started watching how he'scoaching, let's say, women's
three O's.
How is he coaching men's fiveO's.
I started to really getinterested because I was all
about singles doubles was nevermy passion, right and that
really led, it started to makesense.

(47:07):
It just clicked the stuff thathe was saying.
Then I did a lot of otherresearch and I did a lot of
different I guess you can callit workshops, symposiums for
tennis and a lot of them.
I was like, okay, this wasreally good, but nothing that I
really not to brag about, itdidn't know or it didn't
resonate with me as much.
But man, there was a coupleother guys that I put pieces

(47:28):
together now from my own kind ofexperience, common sense.
Then you got John McCauley onthis side and I got this guy
that just did this and it justclicked, it just made sense and
I said I have now a blueprint tocoach doubles at the high level
, intermediate level, beginnerlevel and for people to actually

(47:49):
win for the rest of my life.
And it's not like you can hearthis stuff anywhere you go.
There is only a selective fewthat really can coach doubles
and understand the strategy andwhat drills to do.
That makes sense for the levelthat you're coaching, because
you can't teach the same way,which a lot of coaches are doing

(48:11):
, which took me a while to learn, but I'm understanding it.
I was like this is not makingsense.
Why am I doing this drill withthe ladies to five?
So I broke it down and I put,like I said, a lot of notes and
I developed passion for itbecause it made sense and I've
seen it work.
Like, for instance, I've had ateam that went from Las Vegas

(48:34):
they could not win one team whenthey were getting destroyed to
end up the next year goingundefeated in their two five and
moving to three O from zero, 12to 12, zero, because they had
some pretty good players butthey had no clue how to play
doubles, where to be and allthat, and that was kind of fun

(48:55):
for me to watch.
Then it happened again.
Maybe this team I forget wasthey had two wins, you know 90%
losses undefeated.
Third one undefeated,undefeated just using the same
method or making state, losingsome, but making state
constantly and winning and thenlosing at the national level

(49:16):
close ones, or a couple of winsfrom Las Vegas.
That was all coming in fromjust developing passion for
doubles.
I like to play it but I preferplaying singles.
But when it comes to clinicscoaching, I love doubles because
there is so much that makessense to me that I can offer two
people, and it took a lot ofyears for me to put this
together and a lot of trials anderrors.

(49:38):
If I would have known what Iknow now when I played with John
B, we played our tournamentswhether or not I was out till
five in the morning, I don'tknow how many tournaments we
would have won or made it to thesemis or finals and made more
money on those hostiletournaments on the side.
If I would have known what Ifound out years later, I

(49:59):
couldn't believe how dumb itwould be that I didn't even see
that.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah, yeah, and coming from a singles player
like yourself that already hadthe serving volley technique
down, because obviously volleysis a big part of doubles.
So you've got this doublesblueprint now, so you're
coaching doubles.
How did you get from theChicago area, the Indiana area,

(50:26):
vegas?
How did you make your way toArkansas?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Man, you got some good questions.
I was hoping you asked because,like I said, I can ran for days
and people will be like whatdid he just say?
Like this, he was here and thenconnect the dots.
Like I said, it's not easy.
So basically I'll put this onein about two to five minutes at
the most.
My wife got her MBA in Las Vegasright Executive MBA.

(50:54):
She graduated, she got a joboffering Florida which was on
the Gulf Coast so there isFlorida in between these two and
this was in 2019, early 2019.
And this was like a no-brainerjob offer.
It was on the Gulf Coast, righton the beach.
This is the place we used tovacation.
We loved it, right.
And all of a sudden, this newgig that she was getting, which

(51:16):
was an offer you can't refuse,was right there.
It was like a miracle, right.
So I ended up leaving Las VegasTennis Place there, where I had
a lot of clients build up apretty good name out there and
coaching for again, I'm not verygood exact time, but let's say

(51:37):
between seven, eight years onand off.
I left because of her position.
I figured well, it's Florida,everybody plays tennis.
Maybe I'll do it at some time,but, like I said, her job was
going to be a lot more moneythan I was making at the time.
So let's just go and see whathappens, right?
And then all this COVID madnesshappened while we were in

(51:59):
Florida and the two offices thatshe was running over 220
employees everybody was laid off, including herself in early and
I'm out there with kids, andthe place that I was at was on
the beach.
I mean, it was not easy to keepup with those payments, even
with a little bit of cushion forsavings for several months and

(52:22):
all that.
So I got stuck there, I left myposition and that whole thing
with COVID happened.
I'm like now what?
What do I do For me?
That was just another way ofwhat's the word I'm looking for.
I'm not going to say I enjoyedit, I embraced it, but I'm so

(52:42):
used to making, I guess, crazybig decisions that I kind of
liked it that it happened,because I looked at it as an
opportunity for somethingdifferent.
Now, but what would that beLike?
Where do I go?
Like, where do I go?
Nobody has a job.
Now we sold the house in Vegas.
I got kids, little kids.

(53:05):
Where do I go?
So I told her I said you got 24hours to find a place anywhere
on the map that has land.
Because I thought that thiswhole COVID thing, what happened
was and I know this is asubject that nobody wants to
talk about In my opinion, basedon what I live, what I've seen

(53:27):
back in Europe, I thought it wasgoing to be a complete
government overreach.
They're going to step in and doall kinds of crazy stuff and I
was not wrong, whether or notwhat people think what they
should have or not, and I'm justsaying I knew it was going to
be bad, whatever they end upgetting involved with.
And they said there is no.
Every single government'stemporary program ends up being

(53:50):
permanent.
So I felt like this is going tobe a lot longer than let's just
shut down, because Florida wasshut down, a lot of people don't
know.
And I said I just want to getout of here and start somewhere.
Maybe we can find somewheresomething cheap.
I said you got those twopaystubs.
She's looking at me like what Isaid show me your last paystub.

(54:12):
I want to see the date becausethey're going to ask you if I
find the house to show me thelast checks for income, because
how are you going to get?
We had a great credit, thehighest one, but if you got no
jobs, who's going to give youcredit?
And this is in the middle ofall that madness happening, as
you can imagine.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Go back to 20.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
So she shows me this place in.
It was Texas, not much pastyour land, because she always
wanted to have a horse down theroad.
But we were in position to bealready searching to buy a horse
.
But I was just looking hey, Iwant some pasture land, I want
some land.
Let's look into some placeswhere Texas prices were still

(54:51):
kind of steep.
I was like I don't know, maybenot.
It was a lot of not pastureland, but pretty good size
property way cheaper than whatwe were paying in Florida or Las
Vegas.
It still looked like I can makethis happen, make this work, no
matter what.
You can always find some jobshere and there, some basic jobs,
and make it work.
But Texas fell off the map, didnot work.

(55:13):
So we started looking a littlebit more.
She shows me the one he wasactually Wyoming.
He was the one that was like 20acres but he was no pasture
land right and I said no.
She said too cold.
If I got animals down the roador something like, of course am
I going to deal with me?
I said no, forget it.
So I'm thinking, yeah, this isnot going to work.

(55:33):
I don't know what to do and allof a sudden I said if you don't
find, I'm buying an RV.
And she says what I said I'mbuying an RV.
I'm not paying $5,000 a monthto be here on the beach.
I said I'm buying an RV and then, wherever I end up, I know I
can find a tennis coachingbusiness somewhere and get

(55:53):
started and then I can sell itlater.
I just said I need something to.
I'm not going to pay $5,000 amonth here.
I'm done.
This place was not meant to be.
I'm done with Florida Out,right.
So once you heard the RV and sheknew I was serious, she really
got digging to find a place.

(56:13):
Now, right, and here comes thisland behind me on the map
Sulfur Rock, arkansas.
Never been to Arkansas in mylife, by the way, ever.
Okay, I'm as the more city guythat you can probably ever find.
And I said well, what is that?
I said I get how many 40 acresin the house for what I said?

(56:34):
There is no way, it's gotta be ajoke, right?
So I called them up.
They actually answered, becauseyou know it was in the middle
of COVID, so everybody wasfreaking out and nobody was
buying anything.
And I put a lowball offer,thinking there is no way this is
going to stick, right.
And the lady calls me back thenext day or a few hours later, I

(56:58):
forget.
And she said, well, if you cansend me a bank statement, and
last two stops of your paycheck,which I had ready already.
I said, okay, we send it out,she goes.
Offer accepted.
I said can you give me 24 hoursif I can physically see the
place, Because you know how itis when you see it on the

(57:18):
pictures, it can be like youknow, she said no problem but
you have 24 hours.
So it was basically just again,another blessing, miracle.
We took the kids the next dayto.
I got family in-laws livingTuscaloosa, alabama.
That's why if you see videosfrom Alabama game, it's I kind

(57:39):
of got lucky to at least haveone football team that's
actually winning.
So we go to Tuscaloosa drop thekids the next morning.
We spent the night there.
I took her alone the nextmorning and I got to this place,
holferok, arkansas, and it was,you know, some trailer parks
going through.

(57:59):
As it was getting close, I'mlike, oh, this is not gonna work
, it's probably gonna be bad.
And all of a sudden there islike a kind of a cool road with
a lot of trees on the side, kindof like a whiny road, and there
is this plant in front of me.
I mean I was just.
The house was built in the mid90s, turnkey ready, nothing to
it.
Right now we're remodelingcertain things the way we like

(58:21):
it, but it was turnkey ready,you know nothing, like I said to
do it, but it had a hops.
It's like this for the pricethat we paid was four times less
than what we used to own, with40 more acres.
I mean, I understand inArkansas, not Las Vegas, but I'm
like that's a no brainer, right?

(58:43):
So I called the lady right?
Well, I didn't call her, shewas right here.
I love the place.
I said we're good, where do Isign?
That was.
It came back, got the U-holetruck and I moved.
It took about six months to getthings rolling.
We did not have any jobs andshe found a little bit of some
little work online, working fromhome, and I didn't have

(59:05):
anything with tennis.
I didn't even think peopleplayed tennis in Arkansas.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Yes, it's interesting because you know you said you
had never come to Arkansas andhonestly, you know, not really
knowing your backstory, I didn'tknow anything about the tennis
community before I startedplaying, but the way that you
were received in Jonesboro Ijust assumed you'd been here for
a long time.
Now I hear your story andyou're like no, I've only been
here about three years, so thatwas new to me, hearing that.

(59:33):
So that's interesting.
But a lot of people that havenever been to Arkansas just have
this perception that it's.
You know, we walk aroundbarefoot, there's nothing there,
there's nothing to do.
Why would you ever want to livein Arkansas?
And then you come and then yousee all the beauty and all the
hiking trails and things thatyou can do and people are like,
oh, this would be a you know, anice place to be.

(59:53):
So it's funny seeing how you'venever really been a country guy
and now you ended up on 40acres in Arkansas.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, I just really like right now I would have to
say never staying never.
But I am in love with the stateof Arkansas, like I met so many
great people like yourself,your brother and so many other
people in Jonesboro through PatMalone, which I'll touch up in a
second with how that wholemeetup happened, with everything

(01:00:24):
that, how I actually startedcoaching here.
I'll close off with that on thewhole path of how I ended up
here, cause now it just kind ofties down to how I ended up
where I ended up, right, andit's just, it's been awesome to
meet all those people and, yeah,it's only been three years.
So I went to community centerin Batesville, which is the
closest bigger town where I live, about 10, 15 minutes from

(01:00:46):
Sulphur Rocks, so very close.
Batesville's got about 10,000people, not nothing big but
nonetheless way bigger than thelittle town that we're in with
400 people right.
And I got there and I wanted todo something with tennis to the
community center, cause theygot two courts.
They're pretty bad, they'rebeat up, but they got two courts
, you know, and I tried a littlebit of something and I just
really never took off.

(01:01:06):
And then the director of thecommunity center, jeff.
He said you know I got this guy, pat Malone, you can give him a
call.
He's doing some stuff here withtennis and he knows a lot of
people.
You need to probably give him acall.
That's up to you.
I know you probably want to doyour own thing, but to get
started it would be really goodto reach out to him.

(01:01:27):
And I did and Pat, immediatelywhen he stole my resume, invited
me to Johnsboro.
We met in the office and Istarted just helping out with
some camps and all that and thenabout a year and a half two
years, after about a year and ahalf, pat was already mentioning
he's trying to go somewhereelse.
I had a lot of people thatstarted working with me and he

(01:01:48):
had no issues with me out thereor the city that I'm aware of
and he says you can just takeover because I have other plans
and all that.
So Pat is the one thatintroduced me to all those
people and he ended up leavingand I took over the contract the

(01:02:10):
contract basically stillworking on some stuff with the
contract with Earl Bell inJohnsboro and Pat decided to go
on with next endeavors.
I've seen on your channel.
You interviewed him.
He's obviously very energeticguy.
Probably very interesting storytoo, like mine, with his Marine

(01:02:31):
background and how intense heis and all that.
It was just incredible to howthat worked out on accident
again with him and where we aretoday.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
No, absolutely.
Yeah, like you said, Iinterviewed Pat and that was
kind of when I just startedgetting into my tennis journey
and it's just a great way to beable to meet people and connect
with people.
So that's a really interestingstory about how you get all the
way from Europe to Vegas toChicago, indiana, some Alabama

(01:03:11):
in there, and then make your waydown to the natural state.
So what are three things, marco, that pieces of advice that you
would give to someone that'snever played tennis but wants to
?

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Well, number one there is so many things that I
can add on this, but I'll try tostick with three.
Go in with open mind whenyou're playing tennis, meaning
don't expect immediately to playat pro level.
Understand that you got tolearn to deal with adversity

(01:03:47):
because it is, as you know, avery mental, grueling sport, not
just physical, but physicalpart comes a little later as you
get better, because you got toset up more on a tougher balls
that are coming.
So be open minded to be readyto deal with adversity and this
will help you with everythingelse you do in life.

(01:04:09):
Number two do not jump intoleagues immediately if you do
not already have passion for thegame, or even if you do take
your time.
Why am I saying this, which alot of tennis clubs will
probably say well, this guy'scrazy.
Because that's what brings themost money for the tennis clubs
and all that because people aremore kind of like, not stuck,

(01:04:32):
but they are very connected withthe club.
If that happens, it's becauseof a lot of bad sportsmanship
out there and they can make younot love the game.
So don't rush into leaguesright away.
Learn how to keep track of thescore and all that what the
league is all about.
But I don't want you to go inand start hating it because of

(01:04:54):
some idiot that's calling everyball out and making fun of you
the way you hit the ball, orwhatever the reason you may be.
I'm sure you have a lot ofexperiences from that.
It can be a little rough if youhave a bad captain, that there
is no camaraderie in the team.
So go in open-minded, a minded,knowing you're gonna have to
deal with some adversity.

(01:05:14):
Do not jump into leagues tooquickly.
And number three, just be readyto work.
Go in knowing that this, whenyou develop passion for tennis,
it is going to be nonstop inyour head because you know
certain shots you could havedone better and that's what's
gonna keep you driving.
With everything else you do inlife, whether it's business,

(01:05:37):
whether it's relationship, it'sgoing to make you.
It's a mindset that you shapethrough tennis.
And if they say there is asaying, if you wanna learn
something about someone liketheir character, put them in the
game of tennis for 10 minutesor golf and you learn everything

(01:05:59):
you have to learn about thisperson.
Okay, to actual game, cause youknow who is the cheater, you
know who is very good dealingwith adversity.
When you're losing, can youcome back?
Who is the fighter, who is not,who is very competitive?
That's what I mean, and that'swhat comes down from picking up
that golf club and going on thecourse or in the tennis game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
That's some good pieces ofadvice and those are, one thing,
things that I've been kind ofracking my brain about.
So I wanted to ask you this Iasked Pat when I interviewed him
why do you think that there issuch a great imbalance for the
number of women players versusmen players at the beginner
levels, and what are some thingsthat we can do to get more

(01:06:44):
beginner guys?
And because right now, lookingahead to spring league, it
doesn't even look like there'sgonna be a two, five men's
division at all.
And one thing that I've beenjust kind of thinking about is
how can we get more guys in thesport to kind of grow it in the
area?

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Well, the way I've noticed it with men, it comes
down to men want to be nextRafael Nadal tomorrow.
Okay, they come in out there,especially if you're an athlete.
You play basketball likeyourself, like your brother.
You guys are really in greatshape.
You got a lot of guys that I'veseen on the tennis course that
would lift weights or beingreally good shape or, like I

(01:07:22):
said, they play.
I had a couple of guys thatthey were running backs in
college football okay, they canget to every ball.
They can't deal with the factthat they cannot really play
well for a while because it's somuch technique involved to
learn.
So what they want is men leavethe sport.
They do not wanna play becausethey want to be a next Nadal

(01:07:47):
overnight.
They come in with that mindset.
They wanna hit the ball as hardas they can, especially in
doubles.
They gonna, on a return ofserve, they gonna hit as hard as
they can right away to try tobeat the guy at the net down the
line, playing the lowestpercentage shot every single
time.
I'm gonna repeat that againplaying the lowest percentage
shot, every single shot andtrying to win when the level is

(01:08:14):
not there yet.
While women what I've noticedare more like listen, I'm
getting a great workout, I'mgetting competitive, even though
maybe I didn't even play sportsbefore, and this is all of a
sudden like I'm able to wow,this is pretty good.
They got all their Applewatches.
Look how many steps they did.
Okay, well, I lost, but theyfind it in a completely

(01:08:38):
different way, as what I'venoticed, men do.
That's why, including in LasVegas, where you have tennis
club after tennis club and I wasin a huge facility, it was more
women playing and guys wouldcome and go and they would just
well, I don't like this coach.
I don't like the way he feedsthe ball.
I like this.
I like this drill better.
I don't like that drill.
Well, I want to go with thisguy.

(01:08:59):
I mean, it's constantly, youknow, a battle there that
eventually leads to I'm justgoing to do my own thing or not
even play on a league, and I'mjust going to play some open
tournaments and call it a day.
That's what I've noticed from25 something years now of
experience in the tenniscommunity.
You can call it tenniscommunity.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
That's interesting.
So I do want to double back onyour time in Arkansas.
So you know you moved hereabout three years ago.
You mentioned your wife havingaspirations on getting a horse
one day.
Do you have animals on yourfarm or like?
What is your plan and what areyou doing with your land right
now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Well, when we got here, we have a lot of hunting
property in the back and on thesides.
We mean, like you know, woodsbasically, but there is about 10
to 12 acres.
That's like past your land.
So we were able to.
When the first job came alongyou know, just a basic little
job online we're like, okay,we're going to get that horse
now because we have so muchgrass, instead of moving it,

(01:10:06):
let's just get that horse outthere and get started.
And it was a pretty cheap horse.
She was, unfortunately, notwell taken care of and, man, we
got that horse up to go prettyquickly.
I mean, she's just a beautiful.
I mean she's huge.
I mean the muscles are juststacked on, just like watching
Shannon sharp, you know like.

(01:10:26):
I mean every single muscle.
Is it kind of like you took itand you put it right there?
That looks good?
No, this one looks better.
Like I mean it is just a just agorgeous animal.
Now, right.
So when that happened, I wantedto have our own food and I was
really not sure how to do thatwith the whole thing with the

(01:10:48):
cattle, because I have noexperience.
So this probably hilariousstory, I think.
So what do I do?
So we're looking on Facebooklike how do I buy the cow?
I don't know.
You know we got this littleelectric fence.
You know I think I could put on.
We had no fencing either.
It was just kind of open, youknow, with a little bit from the
neighbor, some barbed wire, butthat's about it.

(01:11:10):
And this guy from Scranton,arkansas I did not understand
the word this guy was saying andI know he did not understand me
.
So you got this, we call itwhat it is this hillbilly guy,
old man, trying to talk toEuropean guy in Arkansas to buy
some cows.
I mean, I just it was justhysterical to try to talk to him

(01:11:33):
, but somehow we got tounderstand each other that I
needed two cows, right?
He says, okay, well, I got thedriver.
We agreed on the price.
We're out there putting theelectric fence around.
I said, okay, well, I'll getstarted with that and see where
he goes.
I just want to make sure I havefood for my own family and to
use that land for somethingright.

(01:11:53):
And again, going back to thewhole COVID thing, I thought
that the lockdowns would last alot longer.
The shortages of food, with alot of wars globally, as I'm
sure you're aware of with thesupply chain issues, and I
already went through all thatmess and I was like, just to
make sure, with little kids, Iwant to have my own food.
I just don't trust anyone ingovernment.
By the way, there is not oneperson in the office that I

(01:12:17):
trust Left right, black, white,I don't give a shit.
I don't trust any of them.
Okay, like, I just do not, toput that out there.
So I said I want to have my ownfood because I don't trust
people in charge to do anythingright, and that's kind of how it
happens.
So he got me nine cows that Ican pick two out of the nine

(01:12:40):
that I like.
I'm like man, what a guy.
This is great.
So this old man comes in, he'sprobably 90.
Like I'm not over exaggeratingand he's got, of course you know
he has 2,500 pickup truck andhe's got a trailer for a cows.
I'm like, okay, I want number22 and 23.
I was thinking just I want toget the cow that doesn't have

(01:13:00):
eyes like this or snotty nose orsomething.
I want to look the one kind of.
That's all I know.
Right, and they were all young,maybe six to eight months.
So, heifers, and I tell thedriver, he says, well, he goes,
well, go get him.
I said, go get him.
What?
How am I going to get him?
And I had one of the guys here,veterans, that worked on the

(01:13:22):
fence to help out with electricfence and he played football,
you know, at really high leveloffensive lines, a really strong
Arkansas man, right, and he'sout there.
Well, we can just grab him bythe tail and pull him out.
I said what I thought he wasjoking, right.
So he goes in there.
And you know, and this guy islike I said, he's, he's a bull

(01:13:44):
man and he goes in there and hetries to grab that tail a little
bit and, man, these cows juststick their head.
You know, herd mentality inside.
So, you know they don't want tocome out.
So I come up to the driver andI said listen, man, I can't get
the two I want.
I don't know what you want meto do.
You got to help me out, I youknow.
He says there's not nothing Ican do.

(01:14:05):
I'm 90 years old.
He says you can call whateverthe guy is in Scranton and
figure it out.
So I called him up and he sayswell, yeah, the man is very old.
If you can't get him out, Idon't know what to tell you.
I said oh, you want me to buyall nine?
That's where the game is Like.
I don't know right, yeah.
I said well, I guess I'll buyall nine.

(01:14:26):
Since you drove all the wayfrom basically close to
Fayetteville, I said I'll buyall nine, but this is the, this
is what I'll pay you for.
And he did agree.
He took a while for him toagree, but I because then we
just hit from one side of thetrailer and they all came out
together and then I kind oflooked around and I said, now
what?
Now I got nine cows.

(01:14:47):
I wanted two and it turned intoa farm to table nationwide beef
business because I had so manycows that a lot of family
friends when they found out theystarted buying from us because
they would come over, they wouldhave steaks here or whatever
hamburgers.
They're like man, this is themost delicious meat I've ever

(01:15:07):
had.
So they started ordering like50 pounds, a hundred pound
orders.
Then I started just they'retelling their friends, then
their friends telling otherfriends.
All of a sudden those were soldwithin no time.
I ended up selling, like in twoyears, over 40 head of cattle
in just a matter of two yearsand now has turned into a, like

(01:15:28):
I said, a nationwide farm totable business.
And that's how the storyhappened.
It was no, but the thing is, Ideveloped passion for it, you
see, like that was one of thosedeals that I immediately.
I was really interested.
That's why I was like no, thisis.
I love the fact to see the cowupfront and they just graze, or
the horse.
I just think it's beautiful andthey take care of themselves.

(01:15:51):
You just got to make sure yougot a good fence.
There are some issues, you know.
You got to get them sometimesand all that gets really cold,
old, maybe two weeks out of thewinter in here in Sulphur rocks.
So I got to, you know, breakthe water.
So it's really.
It's not like you have dogsright which I always not always,
but I had a dog too thatthey're more like.
They're like your kid, whilethese animals like this are

(01:16:17):
especially cattle or chickens,which we have chickens do you?
They're out there doing theirown thing, like you don't even
have to look.
You just got to make sure theygot water, that's it.
You just have to find this wellthat they can just go in, so
you don't even.
It's just, it was so easy and Ideveloped.
And then for auctions, I didn'thave to deal with with the guy
and Scranton every time.
There's actually an auctionhere, about 10 minutes from here

(01:16:40):
, and it reminded me of LasVegas, playing poker tournaments
and all that or stock market.
I did a lot of that stuff tomake deals and all that.
I just love that whole aspectof it and I know a lot of people
.
It's not for everyone becauseyou know those cows are not pets
, that's just the way it is.
You don't want to getemotionally attached to them,

(01:17:00):
it's the way it is.
I mean it is what it is, theirfood, and you go out to the you
know local whatever McDonald's.
That's what it is.
I mean, that's just the fact oflife.
So I tried to kind of like thefirst couple of cows I'm not
going to lie, that was not easywhen you had to take them in to
the processor, but once you kindof understand that's just how

(01:17:25):
it goes.
It's turned into, like I said,passion and they have really
good life here because we have,I think, amazing property for
them, a lot of grass, they'rewell taken care of and we keep
them for several years and theyjust go.
That's just how it goes.
And now actually we have, likewe do like a 17 pound, almost 20

(01:17:45):
pound brisket right Giveawayfor Christmas For people.
I can even give you that linkif people want to.
Just.
Yes, absolutely we want that andwe're going to do like a live
drawing for it.
We're going to do it on the20th of December because we had
one of the bulls.
It was a huge brisket right andso we're doing that.
Sometimes we do giveaways likethis and it just developed into

(01:18:08):
passion, just like tennis, andthere is not many things I know
how to do, like I said, but whenI do develop that passion for
something and that would be thebiggest take from today's
interview for you, for any ofyour listeners you know sky is
the limit what you canaccomplish with your podcast or
whatever, when you have passionand when you want to put hard

(01:18:29):
work, because people know whenyou try to cut corners and they
can sense you're just doing itbecause you're doing it, yeah,
because you know.
They know people are not dumb.
Okay, and that's where I'venoticed a lot of people are
trying to cut corners so theycan make it easier for
themselves and make more moneyand whatnot and not really take
care of people, and this iswhere they lose on opportunities

(01:18:52):
and they don't have a repeatbusiness or a lot of subs for
your podcast that actually keepthem and getting more people on
them versus like no, this guy'sjust, you know whatever.
It sounded good at thebeginning, but now we're just
going to cut you out, tevin orMarco, right?
So it's not easy to keep thatpassion all the time.

(01:19:14):
So either you have it or youdon't.
You can't trick anyone, becausehe's going to put your guard
down and they'll know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely that's.
That's so interesting, that howyou do the I think, the best
story, one of the best, becauseyou had a lot today the cow
story.
That's so interesting how youjust kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
I'm just going to buy all the cows.
I'm like that's just so such acrazy story and you're right.
And when we were talkingTuesday at the lesson, you're
like, yeah, people don't believeall the things that I have to
say or you know all your storiesand stuff, but I definitely
think it's something that needsto be told because I mean, you,
you're well traveled and wellrounded as far as you know from

(01:19:58):
the.
You know you said farm thetable, like I'm.
I'm interested in some of thatmeat now because that's the one
thing that we love at eating isis steak, and I love seeing your
pictures online of the rib eyesand things that you're cooking.
And I actually worked at asteakhouse for seven years, so
that's where my passion forcooking steaks and eating steaks
and stuff comes from, cause youknow before that I was kind of

(01:20:21):
like a eat my steak, well done,kind of person, and then I just
got to experience all thesedifferent flavors, working in
that restaurant environment andin that kitchen and things like
that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
So so you know, good steak is what you're telling me.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
What good steak is.
Yeah, yeah, that was.
That was my biggest.
I didn't want to do thispodcast for ever, so I'll finish
off.
Yeah, I just man, when I pickedup that first meat and I went
in my freezer and I said youknow what?
I'm going to try hamburgerfirst.
Right, see what that tasteslike, it was the most like.

(01:20:57):
Yeah, it was.
It was such an experience toknow like this animal I know
again, I know a lot of peoplemay get offended by all this.
There's a lot of vegans outthere and all that, and I get
all that.
But for me to know where thatanimal was eating and how she
was taken or whatever fear hewas taking care of, and I know
what they ate.

(01:21:17):
And then I just there wassomething like, especially with
chickens too.
Are we at Turkey's chickens?
I learned how to process my ownchickens, believe it or not?
That's another part that notmany people can do.
I understand that, but I, just,like I said, I just develop
passion for enjoying the natureand and and and and living off

(01:21:39):
of that, to, to, to even huntyour own food and prepare it and
understand this is, this iswhat it is.
People just don't want to hearthe fact that when you go to,
let's say, chick-fil-a, thatchicken had to go through a
process in order to get to yourplate.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:21:59):
I want to make sure I teach my kids all that so they
understand.
You know how it is and I hope Idon't offend other people out
there, whatever their choice offood is.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
And whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
So this is how I see it and this is what I do, and I
don't change a planning thatanytime soon.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
No, absolutely.
And then if you look at just inother parts of like in nature
and stuff, it's, it's just theyou know, it's the food chain.
You know, naturally in natureother animals eat other animals,
you know.
So it's just, I think it's justa natural thing to do.
But you know, obviously youknow we're humans and we can
live our lives how we want tolive our lives.

(01:22:39):
So you know, whatever you wantto do.
It might be different for me,but you know I'm kind of in the
same boat as you.
So I guess the last thing I'llask you is what is your favorite
cut of steak?

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
I mean I, I'm going to say the most underrated.
I love tenderloin fillets, myfavorite.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
That's kind of like to me.
That was an easy decision.
I just love, love tenderloinfillet, but the most underrated
cut and the cheapest one out ofthe states steak is sirloin
steak.
Yeah, I, I just I just like Isaid, it's definitely something
that I did not know how goodsirloin actually is.

(01:23:20):
He was always ribeye ribeyeEverybody's talking about
ribeyes in Porter house, ofcourse but I just really think
my favorite is you can put a mixbetween tenderloin fillet and
sirloin would be my underratedby far sirloin steak.
But the grass fed and finishedand young, not old meat.
You know it's gotta be young,so it's.

(01:23:44):
It's just there is a more to it, like under 30 months.
That's kind of what I'venoticed.
Once you get into this olderhouse, it just it gets a lot
more fat which can tastesometimes a lot better, and
you're eating a lot of fats thebad fats, you know.
So I really enjoy sirloin.
Sirloin would be the mostunderrated.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting because a
destiny's mother has a, a farmso we get sometimes we get cows
from her and she has like a, alot of horses, like she has an
equestrian therapy businesswhere she works with kids and
stuff and they take them onrides and things like that.
So that was kind of my firstintroduction to kind of the farm

(01:24:25):
horse life.
So it's it's been interestingto hear how you tie in being
from Europe to now you're livingin the country, in Arkansas,
and you know you've had thiswhole city life that you
experienced too.
So I mean, you pretty much livethree different lives in the
course of of your to where youare now.

(01:24:45):
So it's been really interestingto hear your, your story and do
you have anything that you wantto let the listeners know
before we conclude the interview?

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
Yes, yes, of course I am the European hillbilly
tennis player, cowboy.
Yes, I'll finish off with that,so people can take that how
they want, but that's that's themix I got here.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Absolutely Well, mark , I appreciate you taking the
time on this Saturday to talk tous and let us know a little bit
about your story.
We'll put the links where youcan connect Marco and we'll put
the links to where we can enterfor that drawing, for that, for
that brisket Cause.
That's something I'm excitedabout December 20th.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
Yeah, I'll.
I'll send it to you when we'redone.
Do I just send you on yourphone like a regular yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Just send it to me on my phone and I'll put it on the
show notes to where anyonethat's listening can enter the
drawing if they would like.
So, but like I said, marco,it's been a pleasure.
I appreciate you being on theshow.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
Oh, mine too.
Pleasure is all mine.
I'll see you later, tevin.
Say hi to everybody, to yourfamily, and I'll see you back on
the tennis court.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, guys, this has beenanother episode of the clever
angle podcast.
Like I said, thanks Marco forfor being with us and until next
time.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
All right, take care.

Speaker 1 (01:26:05):
Take care, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye,
bye.

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