December 14, 2023 • 57 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to transition from a corporate career to the world of freelance writing? With Alannah Ferris, a Nashville-based writer, we delve deep into this very journey. Elena brings a wealth of experience from her unique background in finance and logistics and shares valuable insights into the realities of remote work, the nuances of SEO in digital marketing, and the art of self-management.
Weaving through her career shift story, Alannah discusses the nuts and bolts of content writing, copywriting, and effective time management for freelancers. Together, we tackle the infamous writer's block, offering tips and strategies to keep your creativity well-fed. The conversation takes an interesting turn towards the power of storytelling in marketing, discussing the hero's journey structure in crafting compelling copy that resonates with customers.
But the world of freelance writing isn't without its challenges. As we navigate the hurdles, Alannah shares the importance of choosing a niche, building a portfolio, and, most importantly, understanding the value of your work. She talks about grappling with imposter syndrome, the importance of work-life balance, and the four pillars of a good career. Alannah's candid sharing of her personal journey and future goals is nothing short of inspiring. If you're a budding writer or a seasoned pro looking for a fresh perspective, this episode is a gold mine of practical advice, inspiring discussions, and empowering conversations that will leave you with a renewed understanding of the freelance writing landscape.
Alannah’s freelance website!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back to another episode of the Clever
(00:31):
Angle Podcast, episode 43, andI'm here today with Elena Ferris
.
She is a freelance writer thatworks remote, and thank you for
joining me today, elena.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, so I was doing some deep diving into your
website.
I was reading some of yourblogs yesterday and I just want
to say that you write somecompelling pieces on there.
You have a very unique writing,so Thank you, I really
appreciate that.
Can you just tell the audiencea little bit about your job
(01:08):
title, where you're from, just alittle elevator pitch to kind
of get us introduced to you.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I am a Nashville basedfreelance writer.
I grew up in the suburbs ofChicago and my background was
originally actually in financeand logistics, but today I write
professionally for companies inthe lifestyle space, and just
through writing I help thembuild rapport with their
customers and I help themincrease their visibility online
.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh, that's awesome.
So can you just tell me alittle bit like what was it like
growing up in Chicago?
What's your family like, just alittle bit about your childhood
and you growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, it was good, it was cold.
I live in Nashville here now,so that's the weather's a lot
better down here, but it wasreally good.
Growing up I'm super fortunateto have a great family.
I always I tell people I grewup in a very science oriented
family.
So my dad is a zookeeper, he'sa background in biology, I have
(02:06):
siblings with backgrounds inphysics and wildlife, ecology
and all sorts of scientistcousins and that kind of a thing
.
So that was a big influencegrowing up.
But yeah, just, I have a lot ofsuper interesting people in my
family.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So what was your favorite part about growing up
in Chicago?
Did you go to any Cubs games orany Bears games or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
No, I'll be honest, I'm not a huge sports person.
I'm a Cubs and a Bears fan,just by Association and
geography.
So I think that's great.
But we were I would say we werea museum family, so we like to
go to all the museums downtown,like the Field Museum, the
Science and Industry Museum, theShed Aquarium, that kind of
(02:51):
thing.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That's awesome, and I'm from Arkansas originally,
but I'm a Detroit Lions fan, soI'm familiar with the Bears
organization.
We play you guys twice a year,and I just came back from New
Orleans when I was watching theLions play, so me and my wife
were talking about taking a tripto see another Lions game, and
Chicago came up on the list.
So if you have recommendationsfor things to do in Chicago,
(03:15):
feel free to pass those along.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh, I would be happy to.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I definitely have a lot so growing up in a
science-based family physics,zoo keeping, that sort of thing.
Where did writing come intothat?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You know that's a great question.
It did not come into thepicture until like very recently
, like maybe four years ago.
So my original path in schoolwas I was super interested in
biology.
That was like my science ofchoice.
And then I went to college fora couple of years and that was
my major.
So that's where I started.
(03:49):
That's where I wanted to go.
I wanted to do something inconservation and then just
eventually, after a couple ofyears, decided that's actually
wasn't what I wanted to do.
So I totally switched gears,started working in the corporate
world just had a lot ofdifferent jobs, and I found
writing along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So when you say you worked in the corporate space,
what kind of jobs did you have?
Could you dig a little deeperon some of the previous jobs
that you've had?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My first big girl job after Ileft college was I started
working for a logistics companyI would.
I think my title was.
I was a billing coordinator, soI worked a little bit in
finance and that kind of a thingin an office with adults.
So that was a good experienceand I just I followed that path
(04:35):
for a few years.
At one of the latter that I wasclimbing.
So I was a billing coordinator.
The company that I was workingfor at the time it was pretty
small so it got bought out acouple of years into doing that
and then I was promoted to ahigher billing position and then
I actually left Illinois anddecided to move to Virginia and
in Virginia I got a job as aproject manager for a direct
(05:00):
mail company.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Okay, so you said that.
How long ago was that job whenyou were in Virginia?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That was in 2020.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Okay, so you, how long were you in Virginia and
how long have you been inNashville?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So I was in Virginia for two years, from August 2020
to December of 2022.
And I just moved to Nashvillethis past January, so this was
my first year here.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I got you.
So you said that biology waskind of your signs of Troy,
going along with some of thethings that were in your family
already.
What was it that kind of madeyou decide to switch to
something else?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think I had just gotten to well okay.
So I think it.
I think a big part of it was Iwas always someone who was super
excited about college, likefrom when I was little and as I
was growing up, I just wanted togo right through high school,
like I was just ready to go tocollege.
I just I thought it would bethe best thing ever, and so when
I got there, I think myexpectations were just a little
(06:07):
bit too high.
So when I got there I was alittle bit underwhelmed.
I also remember struggling quitea bit with the schoolwork.
Any STEM major is pretty tough,so that was a hard transition.
But I think I also justrealized, like a couple of years
into it, it just wasn't what Iwanted to do long term.
I didn't.
I knew I wanted to go intoconservation, but conservation
(06:28):
isn't really a career, so Iprobably could have gone that
route and found something that Iwanted to do.
But I just realized after twoyears, like I'm not exactly sure
what I want to do and I don'twant to keep spending money if I
don't know what I'm trying toaccomplish.
So I just want to step back,take five and reorient it.
That's, that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, so I have a kind of a similar college
experience.
What was the reaction to yourparents when you decided that
you were no longer going topursue school?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, they were super supportive.
I have I really have just agreat wonderful family.
My, my parents' thing was theywanted all of their kids to try
college at least for a year, andthen After that year, if they
wanted to come home and stay athome and find a job or whatever
they wanted to do, they justwanted all their kids to have
the college experience for atleast a little while.
(07:20):
So two of my siblings ended upgoing to college and graduating
and my younger sister sheactually she tried college,
figured out it wasn't for her,so me and her both kind of
decided to take different paths,which I think was totally fine
and yeah, they were supersupportive about it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That's awesome, and my parents have always been
supportive as well.
Me, I've got a twin brother,and so we were the first two
people in our family to graduatecollege, so it was just a thing
that they all pushed us towards.
They were like when they weregrowing up, getting a college
degree was the main thing.
Hey, get a college degree,you'll get a good job and it'll
(07:57):
lead to better opportunities.
So I was in the same boat whereI didn't really know what I
wanted to do and still figuringthat out.
But I honestly knew, probably alittle earlier than two years,
that I didn't want to continue,just because of the same thing
that you're saying, like themoney aspect.
But I did end it up finishingit and I don't regret it.
Oh, college was a greatexperience and I learned a lot
(08:19):
of things.
But I think if I could do itdifferently and not feel it
almost like a unspoken pressurefrom my parents, I might have
done something differently.
It's nice to hear that yourparents were supportive of you
in that way and I'm not sayingmine weren't, it's just it came
from a generation where that wasthe thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, I totally get that.
That's the case for a lot ofpeople, even if there's not
direct pressure from the parentto the family.
Sometimes, if you have oldersiblings, that kind of set a
precedent for you, like you feellike you have to follow in
their footsteps, or there's justthis kind of unspoken
expectation.
So I totally get what you meanAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
You said you covered writing on the way.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your discovery period
there and what was like some ofthe first things you started
writing about?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, it was Connie.
Okay, so growing up, so I saidin college, like biology and the
sciences, even though I thoughtit was interesting, it was
really difficult.
Language arts, writing andreading is something that
actually always came super easyto me, but I also never really
thought twice about it.
So growing up in high school Iwas in the honors English and
(09:27):
always got A's.
I never really had to try, itwas just something I naturally
excelled at.
Same thing in college so I'vealways written for like on the
side, like I would do journaling.
Sometimes I would just writefor fun, nothing super elaborate
.
So it's just something I knew Iliked it and I knew I was
pretty good at it.
So eventually, so after I hadthis job in Virginia, they had
(09:51):
this the company laid off Ithink like 30 or 40% of the
company.
Within a few months of me beingthere they laid off a huge
portion of people and that kindof gave me another opportunity
to take a step back and figureout okay, do I want to keep
working in an office for therest of my life or do I maybe
want to take a differentdirection?
So that was a really intensesoul searching period for me and
(10:16):
trying to figure out what Iwanted to do.
Did I want to go back to school?
Did I want to explore othercareers?
And the reason I found outabout like writing, or what I've
reconnected with it andrediscovered it, was because I
had someone at my office whoknew that I liked to write and
he, like offered me money towrite a school paper for him.
(10:37):
And so I was like, oh yeah,sure, that's so funny.
I didn't end up doing it, but Igave me the idea of, hey, people
will pay you to write stuff forthem.
So I was like that's reallyinteresting.
So I that's not where I started.
I looked to like, oh, likethere's all these websites where
you can write people's schoolpapers for them and they'll pay
(10:57):
you.
And then that kind of led to mefinding out oh, people actually
write for companies they writefor like.
You didn't just have to be anauthor to be a writer for a
living.
There were so many other waysthat you could monetize your
writing skills and you canactually make a really viable
career off of it.
So it just led me down thatrabbit hole and that's how I got
(11:18):
there.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Did you ever have or do you ever see yourself writing
a book in the future?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, I think before I would have said no, but in
more recent years I think it'spossible.
I know it's a huge thing ittakes, it's a lot of work and
for some authors it's verylittle payoff because you know
there's this whole othermarketing portion and you know
most authors don't make thatmuch money from writing a book.
(11:45):
But I've also just learned somuch more about the industry
than I've knew before, so Ithink at this point I would
definitely consider it in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Do you think that reading has helped you become a
better writer, or do you readoften at all?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, I definitely read a lot.
I think reading is a huge partof being a writer.
I think, no matter what you'rewriting, you should continue to
read.
It expands your vocabulary.
Like it's just there'ssomething that happens in your
brain when you're readingsomething and you remember
people's examples and anecdotesand turn of phrases and it stays
(12:23):
like in your subconscious andthen you can create that and
make it your own.
So the more you read, thebetter of a writer you become.
I definitely think that's thecase.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So, yes, yeah, I definitely see some parallels in
that I know when I'm gettingready to do a podcast, I will
listen to different styles ofpodcasts and I have a wide
variety of interests.
I'll listen to modern wisdomand then I'll listen to
something about movies or TVshows or something, and then
I'll listen to whatever elsethat's in my body crime junkie,
(12:52):
just to see, okay, this is howthis person started their
episode, this is how what Icould do, and then kind of
that's interesting, that writingand read and hand in hand in
that way.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, totally.
I love modern wisdom too.
By the way, I'm a big fan, so Ithink he's such a great
podcaster and actually, fromlistening to I've been listening
to him for a few years andafter listening to a couple of
your podcasts, you guys remindme of each other a little bit in
the way that I feel like you'rereally good at holding space
for people to talk and directinga conversation.
(13:24):
But, yeah, I love modern wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That is a huge compliment.
So I appreciate that, because Ihonestly just found out about
modern wisdom, maybe like amonth ago, so I just started
listening to them.
I came across them on YouTube.
So love Chris, love the contentthat he's putting out, so I
appreciate that.
What are some other podcaststhat you listen to?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Oh man, that's really .
That's the big one.
I like modern wisdom a lot.
I was just looking at thisbecause I just did my Spotify
wrapped.
I listen to Joe Rogan.
Sometimes it just depends onthe guest that he has.
I'm trying to find more goodpodcasts, so if you have any
recommendations, let me know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I'll get a list together and I'll get you some
good shows to listen to for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Have you ever been?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
a podcast guest before.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
No, this is my first time Awesome.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I'm glad I could be your podcast that you were on.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout writing.
So you found this thing thatyou figured out that you could
kind of monetize in a way, andhe sparked the idea from the guy
that you I guess you were oneof your friends that wanted you
to write the paper.
What was the next step afterthat?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
The next step was to just honestly, I think I I
didn't even Google anything.
I think I started by looking onInstagram, so I had just typed
in like freelance writer andthen I came across some.
It was a woman by the name.
Her name is Colleen Welsh.
I don't think she's a freelancewriter anymore, but she
basically had this whole accountteaching people how to become a
freelance writer.
So I started following hercontent and watching her videos.
(15:03):
She had a lot of free, justthat information.
That was really valuable.
I ended up buying a course fromher that she had done.
It was a really well donecourse that kind of showed you
holistically, like not just howdo you write for somebody, but
how do you run a business interms of taxes and how do you
set your rates, and it was supercomprehensive and that was
(15:24):
really helpful.
So I learned a lot from her.
I learned from some otherpeople too, but I was really
just finding people who weredoing what I wanted to do and
then just copying them.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Have you ever heard of the proximity principle?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Basically, I was listening to Dave Ramsey on
YouTube and they had his nameescapes me, but I'll put it in
the show notes once we get done.
So he was in there talkingabout his book and his podcast
was called the proximityprinciple and it was basically
the gist of it is, you getaround people that are doing
what you want to do, or surroundyourself with the information
of things that you want to do,and then, just being in
(16:04):
proximity of people, you willstart to become more like them
and just set yourself on thecourse.
So it kind of sounds likethat's what you did.
You found people that weredoing what you wanted to do and
immersed yourself in it and justjust took the bull by the horns
and just just did it.
So that's really interesting,because I also took a course, or
(16:25):
in the middle of taking apodcast and course, because and
I was just like man I'm going to, Pat Flynn is the guy that's
doing the course and I was justlike I'm just going to do follow
the steps and see if thisframework will legitimately work
.
So that's cool that you um ordid a similar thing to that.
So when did you start makingmoney to where you were like
(16:51):
okay, I could potentially dothis full time.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, so the first time I ever made money from my
writing, I had found a client, anew client, basically.
So I was using a freelancingplatform called Upwork you might
be familiar with it.
So I found my first gig onthere and I think it was not
very much money, but I wrote anarticle about trucking and
(17:15):
logistics because I kind of whatmy background was in.
So I was like sure, I knowabout this.
And I wrote an article and Imade $15 off of it and that was
like wow, I just traded myservices for money.
This is crazy.
So that was really all it tookfor me to be like okay, like
this is possible.
Obviously, I'm not going tocharge $15 for an 800 word
(17:36):
article in the future, but itreally showed me like okay, this
is possible, this could turninto something.
Um, and yeah, that was thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got you, so you got that taste of man.
I can make this into somethingmore.
How long after that would yousay that you went full time?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Um, okay, that was in 2021, and then I went full time
um at the in January of 2022.
So I did it on the side of myjob for a while.
There was this whole otherthing where, after I got laid
off, I ended up working theservice industry and that gave
me a lot of flexibility.
So I started freelancing on theside and then I went full time
(18:20):
in January of 2022.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So when you said service industry, so were you
like a bartender server hostCause I yeah, yeah, I was a
server.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So I worked at this really cute little breakfast
place in Lynchburg, virginia,and I started as a host, then
became a server, then I actuallymanaged there until I left, so
that's what I was doingprimarily.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I'm in sales now but prior to that I worked as a host
server bartender manager at asteakhouse here in Arkansas and
me and my twin brother actuallyhave a bartending business that
we still do on the sides for,like private events and weddings
, a twin and tonic.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So we do that Nice.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So I definitely think that if people out there have
never worked in the serviceindustry and you have that
period, you need a job.
I think that everybody shouldhave to do that, because it
teaches you a lot of lessons,for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, it definitely does, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
All right.
So you said you were managingat the restaurant.
Now you're full time.
Can you just explain to us justwhat a normal day looks like
for you?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, sure, so I will say this too.
So I was full time in 2022.
This year, I work a couple ofnights at a restaurant here in
town, just to give me a littlebit.
So something I learned lastyear was how important it is to
have the posture to be able tosay no to projects that you
(19:53):
don't want to work with orclients you don't want to work
with.
So I decided after I moved toNashville that I wanted to have
just a little something on theside for right now, so that I
could be a little bit pickierabout the projects I take on.
So I actually I'm a waitress atactually a steakhouse as well
just a couple of nights a weekover here too, for the time
being.
And then what was the otherpart of your question I forgot?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
No, I was just asking what does a typical day look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, so a typical day is I.
What's really great is I don'tset an alarm kind of wake up
whenever.
I'm usually pretty early, butmaybe not quite as early as I
did when I was working in acorporate job, so I can take my
time in the morning.
So I'll get up, have a cup ofcoffee, take my time to get
(20:43):
started.
A lot of times I don't actuallystart work until 10 am, which
is really nice, and then yeah,and then I'll just.
I'll usually make to-do liststo the beginning of my day,
figure out what I need to getdone, figure out where my
deadlines are for the week andin.
Every day can look a little bitdifferent, but I usually work
from 10 to about 4 or 5 pm,depending on the day and
(21:07):
depending on the workload.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
How many projects are you currently working on right
now?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So right now is light .
I have I really just have twomain ongoing projects.
I have some stuff lined up forJanuary, so I anticipate things
getting pretty busy at thebeginning of next year.
It's usually a busy season, butright now it's not too bad, but
not a nice, because theholidays are coming up, so I
(21:36):
have a little bit moreflexibility in my schedule.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, you said you always wanted to have something
on the side that could give youthat freedom to not take on
projects that you're notpassionate about.
Has there ever been a time thatyou've written about something
that you necessarily didn't wantto take on?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, definitely I've worked with clients who,
especially towards the beginning, where I feel like I just it's
not that I had anything againsttheir content or what they were
doing, but I just didn't exactlyalign with the things that they
were talking about.
And obviously my very firstclient, that trucking company.
I'm not really passionate abouttrucks so I had to figure out
(22:17):
what I wanted my niche to be inbasically.
But both of the clients that Iwork with right now I really
enjoy working with them.
I think the work they do issuper fascinating and important.
So it feels good to be alignedwith them and get excited about
helping them grow their businessand really help them help other
people too.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Absolutely so.
Like I said, I was on yourwebsite.
I was reading some of yourarticles and it said that you
were a SEO content writer.
Can you explain to us what SEOis and the importance of that?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, of course.
So SEO is search engineoptimization.
It's basically what allows yourwebsite or your business to be
searchable or visible on Googleor other search engine sites too
.
So SEO is going to be differentwords or phrases that have to
do with the problem that yourcompany is solving.
(23:13):
So, for example, so with yourpodcast, the Clever Angle like a
couple of keywords or phrasesfor your podcast that somebody
might want to type into Googleis I want to learn more about
different career options, orsomething like that.
Or I'm trying to think of abetter example.
So I think I put this in one ofmy blog posts recently.
(23:37):
So if you're a fishing baitshop, you want your website to
come up when somebody types intoGoogle, like if they put how to
best Bait near me, or likewhere to get the best fishing
equipment near me, or somethinglike that.
There's all these differentkeywords and phrases associated
(23:57):
with that business that you wantyour company to show up on
Google, if that makes sense.
I pictured that, but I hope Iwas being clear.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You definitely are.
So you're saying that usingsearch engine optimization
because, like I said, I readyour blog post.
It's going to help you be moreor Find a guess.
So when I search for something,I'm going to be in the first,
on the first page is the goalright.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes, yes, that's kind of what you're competing for
when you're optimizing yourwebsite or your business for SEO
.
Is you want your website toshow up on that first page of
Google when someone types aquestion into it?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So how do you use that?
So how would I use that if Iwas wanting to do something with
my podcast?
So if I reach out to you andsay, hey, I need to, I want to
take my podcast to the nextlevel, one of the one of the
things on your blog that I sawwas that blogs are a Good way to
(24:59):
still be searchable.
It's one of those things thatare is going to live on the
internet for I guess you saidtwo years.
How would I Use search engineoptimization to help my podcast?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, so the two years thing is also.
That's just an average, but alot of people think that
Blogging is something that'soutdated.
Blogging is for the early 2000s.
Like nobody writes blogsanymore, nobody reads blogs
anymore, but blogging isarguably one of the most
important marketing strategiesthat companies can use.
So for your podcast.
(25:33):
Like.
The cool thing that you couldhonestly do with your podcast if
you wanted to is you could takedifferent episodes and Cycle
the content and then make a blogpost about your episode and
within that blog post you canuse keywords and phrases like
how like for Taylor's episode,you could do how to become a
physician recruiter, or whatdegree do you need to become a
physician recruiter.
(25:53):
Like you could insert thosekeywords strategically into a
blog post on your website andthen that would help Google
Index your site and then suggestthat to people when they're
typing that in now, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That's something I never really even thought of,
and I was definitely in the campof Thinking that blogging was
one of those things that peoplereally don't do anymore.
But a lot of the content thatyou still, that we still consume
, is from blog post, is fromarticles on the internet.
So that's interesting, thatit's one of those things that,
(26:27):
even with the increase inYouTube and Podcasting and all
these other sources of media,that blog posts are still a
viable way to get discovered, nomatter what kind of business
you have.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, definitely, companies with SEO optimized
blogs get, on average, 67% moreleads than websites without a
blog.
And then there's anotherstatistic I have, which is 79%
of the best in-class marketersranked blogs as the most
effective marketing strategy.
There's lots of marketingstrategies out.
(27:00):
You know.
Social media is important,newsletters are important, but I
think you saw my blog post too.
It's like Social media isimportant, but the shelf life is
also not really there, like Idon't have the numbers off the
top of my head, but Twitter,instagram posts, tiktoks they
usually only last or are goodfor about for hours or a few
(27:21):
days or a few weeks at most,where, and like you shared
before a blog post have anaverage shelf life of two years
but can go a lot longer.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Absolutely.
Can you explain to me whatcopywriting is?
Copywriting is something thatwhen you look online about hey,
these are the skills you need tolearn If you want to try to
make some money on the side orif you're thinking about doing a
different career like in thetop 10 Is always copywriting.
But I guess I'm not really sureexactly what that is.
Could you explain that to me?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Copywriting is really just anyword that you write to sell
something.
So you can think about thewords on an ad or the words in a
product description on awebsite or Even social media
captions.
So it's really just as simpleas that.
The kind of a psychology behindcopywriting, like the kinds of
(28:15):
words that you use, the way thatyou structure something like
that's going to Lead more ofyour leads and your website and
convert them into buyers there'sa psychology and there's a
skill set behind that.
But basically, copywriting isany word that you write to sell
something.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh, I got you.
So people are hiringcopywriters with the intention
of using those words to sellsomething.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, and copywriting .
So technically content writing,because I'm an SEO content
writer.
Technically, content writingand copywriting are different.
They're really under the sameumbrella.
An example of content writingmight be longer form content,
like writing a blog or a podcastscript or a newsletter, but a
blog can also be being used tosell something as well.
(29:01):
So they're differenttechnically, but it's all in the
same.
You know, it's the same kind ofa thing.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I got you, so do you do like copywriting and content
writing?
You said there was a little bitof a difference there.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, I do both.
I my primary service is I willwrite blog, seo blogs, and that
can be to sell a specificproduct or service, but it can
also just be on About whatevertopic is within the niche in the
company that I'm working for.
So I definitely do both myprimary services, I would say.
Or I write blogs and I writenewsletters.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
So one thing that I was wondering about the job that
you do is what, or some of thepros and cons, would you say, of
working remote.
I would say, um, I would sayboth a pro and con of working
remote is freedom over yourschedule.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I think it's something that it's really great
, but it's also super glamorizedand I think it's a lot harder
than people think, and I thinkanybody who works remote,
whether they have a nine to fiveor whether they're an
entrepreneur or a solo pernureor whatever They'll know what I
mean.
But so there's this thing thatJordan Peterson says, which is
you're a bad employee and aworse boss and you sometimes, in
(30:23):
order to stay on track, and Ifyou don't have a routine or
you're not really forced into aroutine through going to an
office job, you have tonegotiate yourself, like you
would with a little kid, to getthings done.
You know, if you have a to-dolist and you want to get a
certain amount of things done,you could be like Okay, once I
do that, I'm gonna go ahead anddo a little bit of a job and I'm
gonna do a little bit of a job.
And if you want to get acertain amount of things done,
you could be like, okay, once Ido, xyz, I can go get a coffee
(30:46):
or I can go read a chapter of abook that I like.
It's, it's great, but it's alsoit's a big responsibility and
undertaking to Manage yourselfand stay on track and make sure
that you're being productive too.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, are you familiar with the dark
playground?
So, I was listening to modernwisdom.
I can't remember the episode.
It was one of his more recentepisodes and he said he was
working on a book and there'sfour different concepts, but one
I was passively listening to itwhile I was driving at work and
it was one of his concepts wasthe dark playground.
(31:19):
So basically, it's whatever wedo, that kind of puts off what
we need to be doing.
So if we need, if you needed towrite a blog post and you
decided to watch a movie, and no, you should probably be writing
the blog post, or oh, I'm goingto take the dog for a walk, or
I'm going to go do this.
You're doing these things thatare not really Bringing you joy,
(31:41):
like they normally would,because you know you have
something to do.
That would be an example at thedark playground.
Yeah, yeah, totally, I coulddefinitely so could you tell me
about One of your favoritewriting projects that you've
done?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, so One of my favorite writing projects was
when I was still living invirginia.
Um, so I lived in a town calledlynchburg it's where liberty
university is.
Some people might know aboutliberty, but in lynchburg they
had this downtown lynchburgassociation and it's.
Lynchburg is a city that hasreally grown over the past 10
(32:17):
years At least that's whatpeople tell me after I moved
there.
Especially the downtown area,like it has just grown and
blossomed and there's so manynew businesses and restaurants
and stuff like that and it's areally cool community.
Oh, everybody's really it'sreally close knit, a lot of
support.
So the downtown lynchburgassociation was putting on this
project called the hill cityeats project and basically they
(32:38):
were emulating that's somepeople were doing in richmond,
virginia.
A couple years prior, richmondmade this coffee table style
cookbook with a bunch ofdifferent recipes from the
restaurants in downtown Richmond, so like a little bio about
each restaurant and the owner'sstory and lots of like really
(33:01):
cool racks to riches stories,and then they would have a
recipe of something that theyserved in the restaurant so you
could make it at home and it wasalso just beautiful and
aesthetically pleasing and thatkind of a thing.
So because we had so muchgrowth in Lynchburg, they
decided to do something similarand they called it Hill City
Eats.
So I got to do that, which wasreally cool.
I was one of the writers on theproject, so I profiled nine
(33:24):
different restaurants and theyended up publishing it too,
which was really cool.
So now I can say now I'm apublished author, and that was
really fun.
Another project I really enjoyedwas for about a year and a half
I had a client who they had apretty big self development
slash journaling company andthey had these daily podcasts
(33:48):
about self development and I wasone of the writers on their
team and I would help, you know,write out the podcast scripts.
And I love personal development.
It's my favorite topic to writeabout and we there's a lot of
creative freedom, so that wasreally fun too.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, I think personal development is
definitely become mainstream andit's good because I think that
there's a lot of great teachersand educators out there that are
helping people be betterversions of themselves.
So that's cool.
I mean, you got to work on thatpersonal development project
and then you know it, you got towork on the project in Virginia
(34:22):
as well.
That is, it was reallyinteresting and I honestly had a
podcast idea about where Iwould go to different
restaurants and review thedifferent things that they had.
It was going to be called firstbite.
I mean, I have all these thingsthat are cool swirling around
in my head and stuff like that,so it's interesting to kind of
(34:43):
pick something that we're kindof in that same ballpark too as
one of your favorite projects.
We talked a little bit aboutputting off things and time
management.
Do you?
What are some tips that you useto stay on track and prevent
procrastination, because, beinga writer, you probably have
(35:05):
deadlines and things like that.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah.
I think sometimes I would sayon the worst days being a
freelance writer feels likeyou're a college student and you
have a million papers due inthe same week.
That's like at its worst.
So if you don't manage yourcalendar, if you procrastinate a
lot, it's the same thing aslike being in college.
You know white knuckling a 10page paper right before it's due
(35:30):
.
So obviously you don't want todo that because it's not very
pleasant and also the quality isprobably not going to be there
either.
So I do have to stay pretty on,organized and on top of my
deadlines.
I know that per for me, I do mybest work when I can spread a
writing project out over acouple of days or even longer.
So one of the things that Ifound really helpful is I so
(35:54):
when I would say that it'sreally important to give your
clients a realistic timeline.
I think there's a really fastturnover that can be tough and
that can burn you out reallyfast, but if you know how long
something takes you and you'rerealistic about how much time
and effort that's going to take,I think you can set yourself up
for success for sure.
(36:15):
I'm really communicating and nosetting strong boundaries are
like OK, this is how much workit's going to take, this is how
many hours I know it's going totake me.
I need to be able to spread thisout across multiple days or
multiple weeks, and the firstday I work on a project, it
might just be ideating andoutlining and doing research,
and then, a couple of days later, I'll come back to it and write
(36:37):
a stronger outline and thenI'll do the bulk of the writing
the next day and then maybe thenext week I go back and edit
everything.
I think it's really importantas a writer to have time in
between, because when you writesomething and you give yourself
some space and some time awayfrom it, you'll come back and
notice all the mistakes that youmade or like it's just so easy
(37:00):
to miss stuff if you start aproject from start to finish
within a couple of hours.
So I think it's reallyimportant to give yourself time,
just soak everything in andalso come up with the new ideas
or a better way to say something.
So I think that really helps mea lot.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Do you ever struggle with writers block?
Is there ever a time where yousit down and you just can't get
started, because you mentionedwriting a paper and I instantly
went back to comp, to having aright about something that you
don't want to write about.
And then I just can't getstarted and then eventually you
write the paper and then you getthe grade back and all that,
(37:38):
but yeah yeah, definitely, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
but I think honestly what really helps is if you are
a freelance writer, choosing aniche that's interesting, if you
like.
There are certain topics that Ican write about forever and
never get bored of, but thereare also topics that, like, I
can't even squeeze a paper outof because I'm just so bored for
(38:07):
that by the information or Idon't care, or whatever.
So it's really important to bein an industry that you are
knowledgeable about and areinterested in.
I think that really helps.
With writers block, I'vedefinitely had moments though
still I think it's inevitablewhere you sit down and it's like
the words are just not coming,and that's why it's also really
(38:29):
important to make sure that youhave enough time before your
deadline, because if you sitdown and try and write something
and it's just not happening,you can take a few minutes and
then come back to it and thenmaybe the writers block will
have passed.
But at the same time, like,your clients are depending on
you.
So sometimes you just got towrite it.
You just, even if you don'twant to, or even if nothing's
coming to you, if you sit therelong enough, you know you'll get
(38:51):
past it.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
So what are some of those topics that you feel like
you can write forever about?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Self development for sure.
I just think there's like anendless amount.
I think psychology is reallyinteresting, the gym philosophy.
I'm definitely like an ideasperson, so I think all that
stuff is really interesting.
I would say also so like one ofmy clients right now.
She's a pretty big matchmakerin New York City and I just
(39:23):
think the stuff that she talksabout is so fun and interesting
and she's she's like she's sofunny.
She's got this great comedicundertone to all the stuff that
she says and the advice that shegets to people, so that, you
know, entertaining and I like towrite about that and I really
enjoy working with her.
And then also just anythingthat I know is going to help
(39:46):
somebody and help change theirlife or help them get the
support that they need, anythingthat feels meaningful.
That's pretty easy to writeabout too.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
That's awesome.
So storytelling storytelling isdefinitely a big thing.
When it comes to writing,reading.
We all want to read stories,listen to stories, watch stories
that unfold in a good way.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your creative process and
how you go about juststructuring your articles, blog
(40:16):
posts and things like that?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It's funny.
I think a lot of it issubconscious now, like I've just
gotten in the habit offollowing a certain structure,
so kind of second nature, I willsay.
There is a kind of storing,still a storytelling structure
that I came across and this issuper valuable when it comes to
anything like copywriting,whether you're designing your
(40:41):
website for your business andyou're writing the copy for
everything, or if you're writinga blog or whatever it may be.
So there's this thing, and Idon't some of your listeners
might be familiar with this.
Joseph Campbell has this thingcalled the heroes journey, which
is like the classicstorytelling structure that you
see in any movie, like, if youpay attention, star Wars or
(41:06):
Harry Potter or any of the TomCruise movies.
Like they all it's a differentstory, but they all follow the
same structure, and it startsout as there's a hero who has a
problem, who then meets a guide.
That guide gives the hero aplan which exhorts him into
action, and then that eitherresults in success or failure,
(41:28):
and you can follow that formulafor your business too.
So there is an author his nameis Donald Miller and I would
actually recommend this book foranybody who has a business who,
if they don't want to hire acopywriter this is the only book
that they'll ever need to writetheir own copy and he uses this
(41:48):
heroes journey structure tobuild a website that's super
readable, that converts moreleads into buyers, and you
basically make the customer thehero and then your companies
that guide, leading them towardsthe result that they want.
So I have found that structureto be pretty foolproof.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
What are some of your favorite stories?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I love Harry Potter.
I think that's.
That's something I rewatch justabout every year.
It's funny I this is somethingthat I've learned about,
definitely more recently.
Growing up, I read a lot ofnonfiction, which doesn't
necessarily follow the samestorytelling structure, but I'm
(42:37):
more recently.
I've been reading more fictionand missing this pattern in a
lot of the books that I've beenreading.
So, but yeah, I love it, likefantasy novels, like I just read
this book called Fourth Wingthat's got dragons in it and
super cool Harry Potter Akatar,that kind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So yeah, I can just just think to remember the Spies
and reading when I was a kid.
But I found this series byJames Patterson called Maximum
Ride and it's a fantasy bookseries about how these kids that
got experimented on and theyhave wings and they're getting
hunted and I can definitelyresonate with liking that style
(43:20):
of story.
For sure I'll definitely haveto.
What did you say the book wascalled that you just finished?
It's called yeah, it's called,oh the one, I just the fantasy
one with dragons.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Oh yeah, it's called.
Fourth Wing and the sequel justcame out to.
I still need to read the sequel, but it's pretty great.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Have you ever experienced any type of imposter
syndrome?
Why would people want to pay mefor my services, that sort of
thing?
I know that a lot of peoplethat I've interviewed have
struggled with this a little bitof, you know, not feeling good
enough.
My brother, he has aphotography business and I know
that he was battling his owndemons in the fact of it took
(44:00):
him like a year to get startedbecause he knew that his work
was good but he kind ofundercharged for his services,
not thinking that, oh, someone'snot going to pay me X for this.
Have you ever struggled withsomething like that?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, definitely, and I think it's especially
difficult for people like yourbrother who are in photography
or like in any industry wherethe rates aren't like identical,
like one person will havedifferent rates from another
person.
In stuff Like whether you'refreelance writer, freelance
graphic designer, freelancephotographer, your rates are
(44:36):
arbitrary.
You just make them up yourself.
So that was the thing that washardest for me, because,
naturally, like I think likeimposter syndrome is real and
it's really easy to get in yourhead about like why, why, what's
up, pay me for?
Like, especially when you'restarting out, you're like I
don't know what I'm doing, likeI haven't done this before.
So you're like I guess I'lljust accept pennies and that'll
(44:57):
be okay.
But I think having like supportor some people in your circle
who are maybe doing somethingsimilar to you can really help.
I'm in different freelancesaying Facebook groups and
sometimes people will just likethey'll put a, they'll make a
post in there, like a projectthat they're working on.
They're like hey, here, likeI'm, this is the project, here's
(45:20):
the scope, here's everythingthat it's going to be, this is
what I'm going to tell them thatI'm like that the rate is what
do you think about that?
And a lot of people will go inand be like hey, you're really
undercharging, like I do thesame thing and I charge this
much, and so seeing what otherpeople charge for the same thing
that you do, I think thatreally helps validate, like
(45:41):
where your pricing comes from.
I think it's also reallyimportant to understand, like
the value that you're deliveringand like it's important that
your rate and the value thatyour client is going to match,
because I just think a lot ofpeople really undersell
themselves, like they solveproblems that are really
important but they're not evenreally charging with that.
Solving that problem is worth.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Absolutely.
We live in a world whereconvenience is becoming more and
more of a thing.
So if you order DoorDash andthe same meal that you could
have gotten yourself, there'sall these fees that people are
willing to pay for theconvenience.
So if you're able to solve aproblem that a lot of people
have, that becomes more valuable.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I heard a quote one time thatjust stuck with me.
I don't remember where I heardit, but it was basically
somebody saying you will getpaid in proportion to the size
of the problem that you solve.
So the bigger problems that youcan solve, the more money that
you can make.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Absolutely so.
This isn't really from awebsite or anything.
This is just through myexperience, is something that
I've come up with and it's thefour pillars of a good job,
career.
So I think financialcompensation, management If you
some kind of boss or, like inyour case, if you manage
yourself, work, life balance andbenefits.
(46:57):
With those four things in mind,we'll just go through one one
of them at a time, so we'll gofinancial compensation first.
Out of 10.
How would you rate your career?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I would say probably a nine or a 10.
Freelance writing can be superlucrative if you persevere in
our patient.
It depends on your niche.
So if you're working in tech,that's going to be different
than working in education andthat kind of a thing.
But I've talked to people.
I know people can.
You can make a really strongsix figure income and you can
(47:33):
also have the time freedom thatcomes along with it Not to say
there aren't challenges, but Ithink there is a lot of
potential for some goodfinancial compensation.
So, yeah, maybe a nine out of10.
That's awesome.
So the work life balance.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
One thing that I really struggled with in my last
position was so I ran awarehouse for the better part of
two years and at the time itwas the most money that I'd ever
made.
So it was good from a financialstandpoint, but the work life
balance part was way off.
I was working 16 17 hour daysand wasn't getting to see my
family.
I was.
(48:10):
My diet was off.
I wasn't getting to train likeI wanted to.
What is the work life balanceLike?
How do you balance yourprojects versus your personal
life?
Out of 10?
Yeah, I would say that this isa good balance.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, I would say that this is this is also going
to be an eight or nine out of 10, but there's a caveat, and the
caveat is you have to havestrong boundaries.
You can have a fantastic worklife balance, like I know some
people.
So there's this whole communityof people actually called they
call themselves digital nomadsand they basically just travel
(48:46):
the world and then they worklike a lot of freelancers, like
they're not working full timehours, they're working part time
hours, but they're making afull time income.
So you can have a really great,healthy work life balance and
you don't have to start workuntil the time that you want to
start work.
You're probably not going to beworking in eight hour or eight
hour work day.
You're probably going to beworking more, like four or five
(49:06):
hours maybe.
So there's a lot of potentialthere.
But you have to also be reallycareful and conscious of your
workload, because it can bereally easy to take too much on
or, if you're not chargingenough and you have to take on
more clients in order tocompensate for that income, that
can take a toll on you, likeyou were saying, like your
health, and I've definitely beenin that situation before where
(49:29):
I just like the turnover timeswere too fast, it was too much,
and I wasn't able to prioritize,like my health and that kind of
a thing, the way that I wouldhave wanted to.
So, again, the potential isthere, that's.
The skill that you have tolearn along the way is how to
set those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Absolutely, and so benefits.
So this could be anything fromthings that your job allows you
to do Do you have a pension or401k, things like that?
So we'll go benefits next.
What are some of the benefitsof being a freelance writer?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Sure.
So I would say the benefitsdefinitely like time freedom is
going to be the biggest one isyou just you are not like a
chain to a desk for eight hours.
You're probably going to havemost of your day free.
So that's a huge benefit andthat allows you.
You're working remote, so ifyou want to go travel, you can
just take your work with you.
(50:27):
That's a huge benefit.
And you also just you get a lotof autonomy over independence
over the clients that you'rechoosing and the work that you
want to do.
So that's really great.
The only thing I would givebenefits maybe a seven out of 10
because as a freelancer slashsolopreneur, you don't.
(50:50):
You don't have a pension likeliteral, like work benefits, you
don't have insurance.
You have to pay for all thosethings that yourself you can
build those into your rights sothat you can afford them.
But you're not going to havethat cush, those cushy, same
cushy benefits that you get froma traditional nine to five job.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, and then we talked a little bit about this
earlier.
It was management, so likemanaging yourself.
How would you rate that versebeing in a job before where
you're, you've got like astructure boss and a structure
power dynamic within the company.
How would you rate essentiallybeing a solopreneur or being
your own boss?
How would you rate that out of10?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
8 out of 10.
I think I mean the same asbefore.
There's pros and cons, but Ithink if you can figure out how
to manage yourself, it can bereally nice to have that
independence and choice overyour working style and how many
hours you want to work and thatkind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Absolutely so.
One of the last things that Ilike to do is okay, so we've
talked about your journey, wetalked about how you've got
there.
What do you?
Where do you see yourself inthe next one to two years?
What are some of your goals foryour business?
Speaker 2 (52:03):
So I'm right now I'm actually looking to diversify a
little bit and make moneythrough multiple different
outlets.
So I have freelancing, but also, like my personal writing is
really important to me.
So about a month ago I starteda sub stack and sub stack is
really cool because you canwrite a newsletter and people.
(52:23):
It's a good way for people todiscover you.
It's kind of like a socialmedia platform, like a Facebook
or a Twitter, but for writersand people can also support you
for a few bucks a month.
So if you have a strongfollowing on there, that can be
a nice like secondary income.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
And I would also.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly.
It's pretty cool.
You can discover some reallyinteresting people on there, a
lot of, actually, like famousauthors like I don't know about
James Patterson, but there's alot of other authors who have
written books, who also have asub-stack so you can follow
along with their writing, asidefrom just the books that they're
publishing.
So it's pretty cool.
I'd also like to write a bookat some point, because I know
(53:04):
there's a way to kind ofmonetize that and get another
stream of income through that,and then I'd also.
My goal is really to keep aroster of about two to three,
maybe four, clients and have aworkload of about 15 to 20 hours
a week, while making aconsistent, you know, viable
income Down the road.
I'd love to invest some of thatcash flow into real estate, but
(53:28):
that's probably a few yearsaway.
But that's come.
I plan for the foreseeablefuture.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
No, that's cool.
I definitely want to get intoreal estate myself.
It'll be one of the next fewepisodes that I'll release on
here.
I'll be interviewing a realestate agent to pick his brain
on what are the steps to get toowning your first property
outside of a home.
Be on the lookout for that.
So well, yeah, I've reallyenjoyed hearing your story.
(53:54):
So could you give the listenerslike, if you were to go back to
your 18, 19, that's exactlywhat you want to do what would
be the roadmap of how you wouldget there quicker?
What's the most efficientroadmap to becoming a freelance
writer?
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, I think the main thing is to just take
action quickly, like even if youdon't have all the information
or you feel like you're going todo it wrong.
I think it's good to just jumpin and get started.
In terms of specifics, though,would I would tell my past self
for anybody who's interested inbecoming a freelance writer to
choose a niche.
So your niche should be like anindustry or a topic that you
(54:36):
maybe already have somebackground knowledge in and that
you also like and want to writeabout and also has some.
There's some money in thatindustry.
So that could be tech, thatcould be the lifestyle niche,
that could be pet care, whatever.
So it's important to choose aniche, because once you choose
one, you can become an expert inthat, and the further down that
(54:56):
road you go, the more moneythat you can charge people.
So, once you choose a niche,I'd recommend choosing one or
two services you want to offer.
So, whether that's copywritinglike you want to write people's
product descriptions on theirwebsite, or you want to write ad
copy, or if you want to writeblogs I would choose one or two
(55:17):
services to focus on, get reallygood at, get a lot of practice
with, and then you want to makea portfolio of at least three
sample pieces that you can showto potential clients.
So whatever services you want tooffer, you want to come up with
some examples of those likewhat those services might look
like.
You don't have to work with aclient before you can make that
(55:37):
portfolio.
You can write they call itwriting on spec which basically
you can just pretend that, likea company hired you to write
their product descriptions andthen write their product
descriptions, as long as you puton there like this piece was
written on spec, that's totallyfine to use and then from there
just jump in.
You don't even need a website.
You can have a website, butyour portfolio could literally
(55:59):
just be a folder on Google Drivethat you share with a potential
client.
So it can be really simple.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
No, that's awesome and I think that there's going
to be a lot of people that getvalue out of the conversation
that we've had today.
Where can people find you andconnect with you and your
services on social media?
Your website?
Where can they go?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you're interested in workingwith me, my website is
alainaferriscom and my.
You can also reach out to me onInstagram.
On my Instagram, I think it'salainaemferris, and also, if
you're interested in justfollowing along with me on
Substack, I have a freenewsletter you can follow and
(56:41):
that's just going to besubstackcom slash at Alaina
Ferris.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
All right.
Well, we will definitelyinclude all of Elena's
information where you can findher if you would want to work
with her, if you want to followalong on her substack.
We will have all of that in theshow notes.
Is there anything else that youwant to get out there before we
let you go?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
I don't think so.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity, though it was great
to talk to you, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
This has been another episode of the Clever Angle
podcast.
Thank you today to our guestElena for coming on and sharing
her story and her interestingcareer with us.
Thank you everyone forlistening and until next time,
peace.
Welcome back to another episode of the Clever
(00:31):
Angle Podcast, episode 43, andI'm here today with Elena Ferris
.
She is a freelance writer thatworks remote, and thank you for
joining me today, elena.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, so I was doing some deep diving into your
website.
I was reading some of yourblogs yesterday and I just want
to say that you write somecompelling pieces on there.
You have a very unique writing,so Thank you, I really
appreciate that.
Can you just tell the audiencea little bit about your job
(01:08):
title, where you're from, just alittle elevator pitch to kind
of get us introduced to you.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I am a Nashville basedfreelance writer.
I grew up in the suburbs ofChicago and my background was
originally actually in financeand logistics, but today I write
professionally for companies inthe lifestyle space, and just
through writing I help thembuild rapport with their
customers and I help themincrease their visibility online
.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh, that's awesome.
So can you just tell me alittle bit like what was it like
growing up in Chicago?
What's your family like, just alittle bit about your childhood
and you growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, it was good, it was cold.
I live in Nashville here now,so that's the weather's a lot
better down here, but it wasreally good.
Growing up I'm super fortunateto have a great family.
I always I tell people I grewup in a very science oriented
family.
So my dad is a zookeeper, he'sa background in biology, I have
(02:06):
siblings with backgrounds inphysics and wildlife, ecology
and all sorts of scientistcousins and that kind of a thing
.
So that was a big influencegrowing up.
But yeah, just, I have a lot ofsuper interesting people in my
family.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So what was your favorite part about growing up
in Chicago?
Did you go to any Cubs games orany Bears games or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
No, I'll be honest, I'm not a huge sports person.
I'm a Cubs and a Bears fan,just by Association and
geography.
So I think that's great.
But we were I would say we werea museum family, so we like to
go to all the museums downtown,like the Field Museum, the
Science and Industry Museum, theShed Aquarium, that kind of
(02:51):
thing.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
That's awesome, and I'm from Arkansas originally,
but I'm a Detroit Lions fan, soI'm familiar with the Bears
organization.
We play you guys twice a year,and I just came back from New
Orleans when I was watching theLions play, so me and my wife
were talking about taking a tripto see another Lions game, and
Chicago came up on the list.
So if you have recommendationsfor things to do in Chicago,
(03:15):
feel free to pass those along.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh, I would be happy to.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I definitely have a lot so growing up in a
science-based family physics,zoo keeping, that sort of thing.
Where did writing come intothat?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You know that's a great question.
It did not come into thepicture until like very recently
, like maybe four years ago.
So my original path in schoolwas I was super interested in
biology.
That was like my science ofchoice.
And then I went to college fora couple of years and that was
my major.
So that's where I started.
(03:49):
That's where I wanted to go.
I wanted to do something inconservation and then just
eventually, after a couple ofyears, decided that's actually
wasn't what I wanted to do.
So I totally switched gears,started working in the corporate
world just had a lot ofdifferent jobs, and I found
writing along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So when you say you worked in the corporate space,
what kind of jobs did you have?
Could you dig a little deeperon some of the previous jobs
that you've had?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My first big girl job after Ileft college was I started
working for a logistics companyI would.
I think my title was.
I was a billing coordinator, soI worked a little bit in
finance and that kind of a thingin an office with adults.
So that was a good experienceand I just I followed that path
(04:35):
for a few years.
At one of the latter that I wasclimbing.
So I was a billing coordinator.
The company that I was workingfor at the time it was pretty
small so it got bought out acouple of years into doing that
and then I was promoted to ahigher billing position and then
I actually left Illinois anddecided to move to Virginia and
in Virginia I got a job as aproject manager for a direct
(05:00):
mail company.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Okay, so you said that.
How long ago was that job whenyou were in Virginia?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That was in 2020.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Okay, so you, how long were you in Virginia and
how long have you been inNashville?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
So I was in Virginia for two years, from August 2020
to December of 2022.
And I just moved to Nashvillethis past January, so this was
my first year here.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I got you.
So you said that biology waskind of your signs of Troy,
going along with some of thethings that were in your family
already.
What was it that kind of madeyou decide to switch to
something else?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think I had just gotten to well okay.
So I think it.
I think a big part of it was Iwas always someone who was super
excited about college, likefrom when I was little and as I
was growing up, I just wanted togo right through high school,
like I was just ready to go tocollege.
I just I thought it would bethe best thing ever, and so when
I got there, I think myexpectations were just a little
(06:07):
bit too high.
So when I got there I was alittle bit underwhelmed.
I also remember struggling quitea bit with the schoolwork.
Any STEM major is pretty tough,so that was a hard transition.
But I think I also justrealized, like a couple of years
into it, it just wasn't what Iwanted to do long term.
I didn't.
I knew I wanted to go intoconservation, but conservation
(06:28):
isn't really a career, so Iprobably could have gone that
route and found something that Iwanted to do.
But I just realized after twoyears, like I'm not exactly sure
what I want to do and I don'twant to keep spending money if I
don't know what I'm trying toaccomplish.
So I just want to step back,take five and reorient it.
That's, that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, so I have a kind of a similar college
experience.
What was the reaction to yourparents when you decided that
you were no longer going topursue school?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, they were super supportive.
I have I really have just agreat wonderful family.
My, my parents' thing was theywanted all of their kids to try
college at least for a year, andthen After that year, if they
wanted to come home and stay athome and find a job or whatever
they wanted to do, they justwanted all their kids to have
the college experience for atleast a little while.
(07:20):
So two of my siblings ended upgoing to college and graduating
and my younger sister sheactually she tried college,
figured out it wasn't for her,so me and her both kind of
decided to take different paths,which I think was totally fine
and yeah, they were supersupportive about it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That's awesome, and my parents have always been
supportive as well.
Me, I've got a twin brother,and so we were the first two
people in our family to graduatecollege, so it was just a thing
that they all pushed us towards.
They were like when they weregrowing up, getting a college
degree was the main thing.
Hey, get a college degree,you'll get a good job and it'll
(07:57):
lead to better opportunities.
So I was in the same boat whereI didn't really know what I
wanted to do and still figuringthat out.
But I honestly knew, probably alittle earlier than two years,
that I didn't want to continue,just because of the same thing
that you're saying, like themoney aspect.
But I did end it up finishingit and I don't regret it.
Oh, college was a greatexperience and I learned a lot
(08:19):
of things.
But I think if I could do itdifferently and not feel it
almost like a unspoken pressurefrom my parents, I might have
done something differently.
It's nice to hear that yourparents were supportive of you
in that way and I'm not sayingmine weren't, it's just it came
from a generation where that wasthe thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, I totally get that.
That's the case for a lot ofpeople, even if there's not
direct pressure from the parentto the family.
Sometimes, if you have oldersiblings, that kind of set a
precedent for you, like you feellike you have to follow in
their footsteps, or there's justthis kind of unspoken
expectation.
So I totally get what you meanAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
You said you covered writing on the way.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your discovery period
there and what was like some ofthe first things you started
writing about?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, it was Connie.
Okay, so growing up, so I saidin college, like biology and the
sciences, even though I thoughtit was interesting, it was
really difficult.
Language arts, writing andreading is something that
actually always came super easyto me, but I also never really
thought twice about it.
So growing up in high school Iwas in the honors English and
(09:27):
always got A's.
I never really had to try, itwas just something I naturally
excelled at.
Same thing in college so I'vealways written for like on the
side, like I would do journaling.
Sometimes I would just writefor fun, nothing super elaborate
.
So it's just something I knew Iliked it and I knew I was
pretty good at it.
So eventually, so after I hadthis job in Virginia, they had
(09:51):
this the company laid off Ithink like 30 or 40% of the
company.
Within a few months of me beingthere they laid off a huge
portion of people and that kindof gave me another opportunity
to take a step back and figureout okay, do I want to keep
working in an office for therest of my life or do I maybe
want to take a differentdirection?
So that was a really intensesoul searching period for me and
(10:16):
trying to figure out what Iwanted to do.
Did I want to go back to school?
Did I want to explore othercareers?
And the reason I found outabout like writing, or what I've
reconnected with it andrediscovered it, was because I
had someone at my office whoknew that I liked to write and
he, like offered me money towrite a school paper for him.
(10:37):
And so I was like, oh yeah,sure, that's so funny.
I didn't end up doing it, but Igave me the idea of, hey, people
will pay you to write stuff forthem.
So I was like that's reallyinteresting.
So I that's not where I started.
I looked to like, oh, likethere's all these websites where
you can write people's schoolpapers for them and they'll pay
(10:57):
you.
And then that kind of led to mefinding out oh, people actually
write for companies they writefor like.
You didn't just have to be anauthor to be a writer for a
living.
There were so many other waysthat you could monetize your
writing skills and you canactually make a really viable
career off of it.
So it just led me down thatrabbit hole and that's how I got
(11:18):
there.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Did you ever have or do you ever see yourself writing
a book in the future?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, I think before I would have said no, but in
more recent years I think it'spossible.
I know it's a huge thing ittakes, it's a lot of work and
for some authors it's verylittle payoff because you know
there's this whole othermarketing portion and you know
most authors don't make thatmuch money from writing a book.
(11:45):
But I've also just learned somuch more about the industry
than I've knew before, so Ithink at this point I would
definitely consider it in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Do you think that reading has helped you become a
better writer, or do you readoften at all?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, I definitely read a lot.
I think reading is a huge partof being a writer.
I think, no matter what you'rewriting, you should continue to
read.
It expands your vocabulary.
Like it's just there'ssomething that happens in your
brain when you're readingsomething and you remember
people's examples and anecdotesand turn of phrases and it stays
(12:23):
like in your subconscious andthen you can create that and
make it your own.
So the more you read, thebetter of a writer you become.
I definitely think that's thecase.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So, yes, yeah, I definitely see some parallels in
that I know when I'm gettingready to do a podcast, I will
listen to different styles ofpodcasts and I have a wide
variety of interests.
I'll listen to modern wisdomand then I'll listen to
something about movies or TVshows or something, and then
I'll listen to whatever elsethat's in my body crime junkie,
(12:52):
just to see, okay, this is howthis person started their
episode, this is how what Icould do, and then kind of
that's interesting, that writingand read and hand in hand in
that way.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, totally.
I love modern wisdom too.
By the way, I'm a big fan, so Ithink he's such a great
podcaster and actually, fromlistening to I've been listening
to him for a few years andafter listening to a couple of
your podcasts, you guys remindme of each other a little bit in
the way that I feel like you'rereally good at holding space
for people to talk and directinga conversation.
(13:24):
But, yeah, I love modern wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That is a huge compliment.
So I appreciate that, because Ihonestly just found out about
modern wisdom, maybe like amonth ago, so I just started
listening to them.
I came across them on YouTube.
So love Chris, love the contentthat he's putting out, so I
appreciate that.
What are some other podcaststhat you listen to?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Oh man, that's really .
That's the big one.
I like modern wisdom a lot.
I was just looking at thisbecause I just did my Spotify
wrapped.
I listen to Joe Rogan.
Sometimes it just depends onthe guest that he has.
I'm trying to find more goodpodcasts, so if you have any
recommendations, let me know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I'll get a list together and I'll get you some
good shows to listen to for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Have you ever been?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
a podcast guest before.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
No, this is my first time Awesome.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
I'm glad I could be your podcast that you were on.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout writing.
So you found this thing thatyou figured out that you could
kind of monetize in a way, andhe sparked the idea from the guy
that you I guess you were oneof your friends that wanted you
to write the paper.
What was the next step afterthat?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
The next step was to just honestly, I think I I
didn't even Google anything.
I think I started by looking onInstagram, so I had just typed
in like freelance writer andthen I came across some.
It was a woman by the name.
Her name is Colleen Welsh.
I don't think she's a freelancewriter anymore, but she
basically had this whole accountteaching people how to become a
freelance writer.
So I started following hercontent and watching her videos.
(15:03):
She had a lot of free, justthat information.
That was really valuable.
I ended up buying a course fromher that she had done.
It was a really well donecourse that kind of showed you
holistically, like not just howdo you write for somebody, but
how do you run a business interms of taxes and how do you
set your rates, and it was supercomprehensive and that was
(15:24):
really helpful.
So I learned a lot from her.
I learned from some otherpeople too, but I was really
just finding people who weredoing what I wanted to do and
then just copying them.
Basically.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Have you ever heard of the proximity principle?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Basically, I was listening to Dave Ramsey on
YouTube and they had his nameescapes me, but I'll put it in
the show notes once we get done.
So he was in there talkingabout his book and his podcast
was called the proximityprinciple and it was basically
the gist of it is, you getaround people that are doing
what you want to do, or surroundyourself with the information
of things that you want to do,and then, just being in
(16:04):
proximity of people, you willstart to become more like them
and just set yourself on thecourse.
So it kind of sounds likethat's what you did.
You found people that weredoing what you wanted to do and
immersed yourself in it and justjust took the bull by the horns
and just just did it.
So that's really interesting,because I also took a course, or
(16:25):
in the middle of taking apodcast and course, because and
I was just like man I'm going to, Pat Flynn is the guy that's
doing the course and I was justlike I'm just going to do follow
the steps and see if thisframework will legitimately work
.
So that's cool that you um ordid a similar thing to that.
So when did you start makingmoney to where you were like
(16:51):
okay, I could potentially dothis full time.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, so the first time I ever made money from my
writing, I had found a client, anew client, basically.
So I was using a freelancingplatform called Upwork you might
be familiar with it.
So I found my first gig onthere and I think it was not
very much money, but I wrote anarticle about trucking and
(17:15):
logistics because I kind of whatmy background was in.
So I was like sure, I knowabout this.
And I wrote an article and Imade $15 off of it and that was
like wow, I just traded myservices for money.
This is crazy.
So that was really all it tookfor me to be like okay, like
this is possible.
Obviously, I'm not going tocharge $15 for an 800 word
(17:36):
article in the future, but itreally showed me like okay, this
is possible, this could turninto something.
Um, and yeah, that was thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got you, so you got that taste of man.
I can make this into somethingmore.
How long after that would yousay that you went full time?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Um, okay, that was in 2021, and then I went full time
um at the in January of 2022.
So I did it on the side of myjob for a while.
There was this whole otherthing where, after I got laid
off, I ended up working theservice industry and that gave
me a lot of flexibility.
So I started freelancing on theside and then I went full time
(18:20):
in January of 2022.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So when you said service industry, so were you
like a bartender server hostCause I yeah, yeah, I was a
server.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So I worked at this really cute little breakfast
place in Lynchburg, virginia,and I started as a host, then
became a server, then I actuallymanaged there until I left, so
that's what I was doingprimarily.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I'm in sales now but prior to that I worked as a host
server bartender manager at asteakhouse here in Arkansas and
me and my twin brother actuallyhave a bartending business that
we still do on the sides for,like private events and weddings
, a twin and tonic.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So we do that Nice.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So I definitely think that if people out there have
never worked in the serviceindustry and you have that
period, you need a job.
I think that everybody shouldhave to do that, because it
teaches you a lot of lessons,for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, it definitely does, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
All right.
So you said you were managingat the restaurant.
Now you're full time.
Can you just explain to us justwhat a normal day looks like
for you?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, sure, so I will say this too.
So I was full time in 2022.
This year, I work a couple ofnights at a restaurant here in
town, just to give me a littlebit.
So something I learned lastyear was how important it is to
have the posture to be able tosay no to projects that you
(19:53):
don't want to work with orclients you don't want to work
with.
So I decided after I moved toNashville that I wanted to have
just a little something on theside for right now, so that I
could be a little bit pickierabout the projects I take on.
So I actually I'm a waitress atactually a steakhouse as well
just a couple of nights a weekover here too, for the time
being.
And then what was the otherpart of your question I forgot?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
No, I was just asking what does a typical day look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, so a typical day is I.
What's really great is I don'tset an alarm kind of wake up
whenever.
I'm usually pretty early, butmaybe not quite as early as I
did when I was working in acorporate job, so I can take my
time in the morning.
So I'll get up, have a cup ofcoffee, take my time to get
(20:43):
started.
A lot of times I don't actuallystart work until 10 am, which
is really nice, and then yeah,and then I'll just.
I'll usually make to-do liststo the beginning of my day,
figure out what I need to getdone, figure out where my
deadlines are for the week andin.
Every day can look a little bitdifferent, but I usually work
from 10 to about 4 or 5 pm,depending on the day and
(21:07):
depending on the workload.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
How many projects are you currently working on right
now?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So right now is light .
I have I really just have twomain ongoing projects.
I have some stuff lined up forJanuary, so I anticipate things
getting pretty busy at thebeginning of next year.
It's usually a busy season, butright now it's not too bad, but
not a nice, because theholidays are coming up, so I
(21:36):
have a little bit moreflexibility in my schedule.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, you said you always wanted to have something
on the side that could give youthat freedom to not take on
projects that you're notpassionate about.
Has there ever been a time thatyou've written about something
that you necessarily didn't wantto take on?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, definitely I've worked with clients who,
especially towards the beginning, where I feel like I just it's
not that I had anything againsttheir content or what they were
doing, but I just didn't exactlyalign with the things that they
were talking about.
And obviously my very firstclient, that trucking company.
I'm not really passionate abouttrucks so I had to figure out
(22:17):
what I wanted my niche to be inbasically.
But both of the clients that Iwork with right now I really
enjoy working with them.
I think the work they do issuper fascinating and important.
So it feels good to be alignedwith them and get excited about
helping them grow their businessand really help them help other
people too.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Absolutely so.
Like I said, I was on yourwebsite.
I was reading some of yourarticles and it said that you
were a SEO content writer.
Can you explain to us what SEOis and the importance of that?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, of course.
So SEO is search engineoptimization.
It's basically what allows yourwebsite or your business to be
searchable or visible on Googleor other search engine sites too
.
So SEO is going to be differentwords or phrases that have to
do with the problem that yourcompany is solving.
(23:13):
So, for example, so with yourpodcast, the Clever Angle like a
couple of keywords or phrasesfor your podcast that somebody
might want to type into Googleis I want to learn more about
different career options, orsomething like that.
Or I'm trying to think of abetter example.
So I think I put this in one ofmy blog posts recently.
(23:37):
So if you're a fishing baitshop, you want your website to
come up when somebody types intoGoogle, like if they put how to
best Bait near me, or likewhere to get the best fishing
equipment near me, or somethinglike that.
There's all these differentkeywords and phrases associated
(23:57):
with that business that you wantyour company to show up on
Google, if that makes sense.
I pictured that, but I hope Iwas being clear.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You definitely are.
So you're saying that usingsearch engine optimization
because, like I said, I readyour blog post.
It's going to help you be moreor Find a guess.
So when I search for something,I'm going to be in the first,
on the first page is the goalright.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes, yes, that's kind of what you're competing for
when you're optimizing yourwebsite or your business for SEO
.
Is you want your website toshow up on that first page of
Google when someone types aquestion into it?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So how do you use that?
So how would I use that if Iwas wanting to do something with
my podcast?
So if I reach out to you andsay, hey, I need to, I want to
take my podcast to the nextlevel, one of the one of the
things on your blog that I sawwas that blogs are a Good way to
(24:59):
still be searchable.
It's one of those things thatare is going to live on the
internet for I guess you saidtwo years.
How would I Use search engineoptimization to help my podcast?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, so the two years thing is also.
That's just an average, but alot of people think that
Blogging is something that'soutdated.
Blogging is for the early 2000s.
Like nobody writes blogsanymore, nobody reads blogs
anymore, but blogging isarguably one of the most
important marketing strategiesthat companies can use.
So for your podcast.
(25:33):
Like.
The cool thing that you couldhonestly do with your podcast if
you wanted to is you could takedifferent episodes and Cycle
the content and then make a blogpost about your episode and
within that blog post you canuse keywords and phrases like
how like for Taylor's episode,you could do how to become a
physician recruiter, or whatdegree do you need to become a
physician recruiter.
(25:53):
Like you could insert thosekeywords strategically into a
blog post on your website andthen that would help Google
Index your site and then suggestthat to people when they're
typing that in now, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That's something I never really even thought of,
and I was definitely in the campof Thinking that blogging was
one of those things that peoplereally don't do anymore.
But a lot of the content thatyou still, that we still consume
, is from blog post, is fromarticles on the internet.
So that's interesting, thatit's one of those things that,
(26:27):
even with the increase inYouTube and Podcasting and all
these other sources of media,that blog posts are still a
viable way to get discovered, nomatter what kind of business
you have.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, definitely, companies with SEO optimized
blogs get, on average, 67% moreleads than websites without a
blog.
And then there's anotherstatistic I have, which is 79%
of the best in-class marketersranked blogs as the most
effective marketing strategy.
There's lots of marketingstrategies out.
(27:00):
You know.
Social media is important,newsletters are important, but I
think you saw my blog post too.
It's like Social media isimportant, but the shelf life is
also not really there, like Idon't have the numbers off the
top of my head, but Twitter,instagram posts, tiktoks they
usually only last or are goodfor about for hours or a few
(27:21):
days or a few weeks at most,where, and like you shared
before a blog post have anaverage shelf life of two years
but can go a lot longer.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Absolutely.
Can you explain to me whatcopywriting is?
Copywriting is something thatwhen you look online about hey,
these are the skills you need tolearn If you want to try to
make some money on the side orif you're thinking about doing a
different career like in thetop 10 Is always copywriting.
But I guess I'm not really sureexactly what that is.
Could you explain that to me?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Copywriting is really just anyword that you write to sell
something.
So you can think about thewords on an ad or the words in a
product description on awebsite or Even social media
captions.
So it's really just as simpleas that.
The kind of a psychology behindcopywriting, like the kinds of
(28:15):
words that you use, the way thatyou structure something like
that's going to Lead more ofyour leads and your website and
convert them into buyers there'sa psychology and there's a
skill set behind that.
But basically, copywriting isany word that you write to sell
something.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh, I got you.
So people are hiringcopywriters with the intention
of using those words to sellsomething.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, and copywriting .
So technically content writing,because I'm an SEO content
writer.
Technically, content writingand copywriting are different.
They're really under the sameumbrella.
An example of content writingmight be longer form content,
like writing a blog or a podcastscript or a newsletter, but a
blog can also be being used tosell something as well.
(29:01):
So they're differenttechnically, but it's all in the
same.
You know, it's the same kind ofa thing.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I got you, so do you do like copywriting and content
writing?
You said there was a little bitof a difference there.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, I do both.
I my primary service is I willwrite blog, seo blogs, and that
can be to sell a specificproduct or service, but it can
also just be on About whatevertopic is within the niche in the
company that I'm working for.
So I definitely do both myprimary services, I would say.
Or I write blogs and I writenewsletters.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
So one thing that I was wondering about the job that
you do is what, or some of thepros and cons, would you say, of
working remote.
I would say, um, I would sayboth a pro and con of working
remote is freedom over yourschedule.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I think it's something that it's really great
, but it's also super glamorizedand I think it's a lot harder
than people think, and I thinkanybody who works remote,
whether they have a nine to fiveor whether they're an
entrepreneur or a solo pernureor whatever They'll know what I
mean.
But so there's this thing thatJordan Peterson says, which is
you're a bad employee and aworse boss and you sometimes, in
(30:23):
order to stay on track, and Ifyou don't have a routine or
you're not really forced into aroutine through going to an
office job, you have tonegotiate yourself, like you
would with a little kid, to getthings done.
You know, if you have a to-dolist and you want to get a
certain amount of things done,you could be like Okay, once I
do that, I'm gonna go ahead anddo a little bit of a job and I'm
gonna do a little bit of a job.
And if you want to get acertain amount of things done,
you could be like, okay, once Ido, xyz, I can go get a coffee
(30:46):
or I can go read a chapter of abook that I like.
It's, it's great, but it's alsoit's a big responsibility and
undertaking to Manage yourselfand stay on track and make sure
that you're being productive too.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, are you familiar with the dark
playground?
So, I was listening to modernwisdom.
I can't remember the episode.
It was one of his more recentepisodes and he said he was
working on a book and there'sfour different concepts, but one
I was passively listening to itwhile I was driving at work and
it was one of his concepts wasthe dark playground.
(31:19):
So basically, it's whatever wedo, that kind of puts off what
we need to be doing.
So if we need, if you needed towrite a blog post and you
decided to watch a movie, and no, you should probably be writing
the blog post, or oh, I'm goingto take the dog for a walk, or
I'm going to go do this.
You're doing these things thatare not really Bringing you joy,
(31:41):
like they normally would,because you know you have
something to do.
That would be an example at thedark playground.
Yeah, yeah, totally, I coulddefinitely so could you tell me
about One of your favoritewriting projects that you've
done?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, so One of my favorite writing projects was
when I was still living invirginia.
Um, so I lived in a town calledlynchburg it's where liberty
university is.
Some people might know aboutliberty, but in lynchburg they
had this downtown lynchburgassociation and it's.
Lynchburg is a city that hasreally grown over the past 10
(32:17):
years At least that's whatpeople tell me after I moved
there.
Especially the downtown area,like it has just grown and
blossomed and there's so manynew businesses and restaurants
and stuff like that and it's areally cool community.
Oh, everybody's really it'sreally close knit, a lot of
support.
So the downtown lynchburgassociation was putting on this
project called the hill cityeats project and basically they
(32:38):
were emulating that's somepeople were doing in richmond,
virginia.
A couple years prior, richmondmade this coffee table style
cookbook with a bunch ofdifferent recipes from the
restaurants in downtown Richmond, so like a little bio about
each restaurant and the owner'sstory and lots of like really
(33:01):
cool racks to riches stories,and then they would have a
recipe of something that theyserved in the restaurant so you
could make it at home and it wasalso just beautiful and
aesthetically pleasing and thatkind of a thing.
So because we had so muchgrowth in Lynchburg, they
decided to do something similarand they called it Hill City
Eats.
So I got to do that, which wasreally cool.
I was one of the writers on theproject, so I profiled nine
(33:24):
different restaurants and theyended up publishing it too,
which was really cool.
So now I can say now I'm apublished author, and that was
really fun.
Another project I really enjoyedwas for about a year and a half
I had a client who they had apretty big self development
slash journaling company andthey had these daily podcasts
(33:48):
about self development and I wasone of the writers on their
team and I would help, you know,write out the podcast scripts.
And I love personal development.
It's my favorite topic to writeabout and we there's a lot of
creative freedom, so that wasreally fun too.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, I think personal development is
definitely become mainstream andit's good because I think that
there's a lot of great teachersand educators out there that are
helping people be betterversions of themselves.
So that's cool.
I mean, you got to work on thatpersonal development project
and then you know it, you got towork on the project in Virginia
(34:22):
as well.
That is, it was reallyinteresting and I honestly had a
podcast idea about where Iwould go to different
restaurants and review thedifferent things that they had.
It was going to be called firstbite.
I mean, I have all these thingsthat are cool swirling around
in my head and stuff like that,so it's interesting to kind of
(34:43):
pick something that we're kindof in that same ballpark too as
one of your favorite projects.
We talked a little bit aboutputting off things and time
management.
Do you?
What are some tips that you useto stay on track and prevent
procrastination, because, beinga writer, you probably have
(35:05):
deadlines and things like that.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah.
I think sometimes I would sayon the worst days being a
freelance writer feels likeyou're a college student and you
have a million papers due inthe same week.
That's like at its worst.
So if you don't manage yourcalendar, if you procrastinate a
lot, it's the same thing aslike being in college.
You know white knuckling a 10page paper right before it's due
(35:30):
.
So obviously you don't want todo that because it's not very
pleasant and also the quality isprobably not going to be there
either.
So I do have to stay pretty on,organized and on top of my
deadlines.
I know that per for me, I do mybest work when I can spread a
writing project out over acouple of days or even longer.
So one of the things that Ifound really helpful is I so
(35:54):
when I would say that it'sreally important to give your
clients a realistic timeline.
I think there's a really fastturnover that can be tough and
that can burn you out reallyfast, but if you know how long
something takes you and you'rerealistic about how much time
and effort that's going to take,I think you can set yourself up
for success for sure.
(36:15):
I'm really communicating and nosetting strong boundaries are
like OK, this is how much workit's going to take, this is how
many hours I know it's going totake me.
I need to be able to spread thisout across multiple days or
multiple weeks, and the firstday I work on a project, it
might just be ideating andoutlining and doing research,
and then, a couple of days later, I'll come back to it and write
(36:37):
a stronger outline and thenI'll do the bulk of the writing
the next day and then maybe thenext week I go back and edit
everything.
I think it's really importantas a writer to have time in
between, because when you writesomething and you give yourself
some space and some time awayfrom it, you'll come back and
notice all the mistakes that youmade or like it's just so easy
(37:00):
to miss stuff if you start aproject from start to finish
within a couple of hours.
So I think it's reallyimportant to give yourself time,
just soak everything in andalso come up with the new ideas
or a better way to say something.
So I think that really helps mea lot.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Do you ever struggle with writers block?
Is there ever a time where yousit down and you just can't get
started, because you mentionedwriting a paper and I instantly
went back to comp, to having aright about something that you
don't want to write about.
And then I just can't getstarted and then eventually you
write the paper and then you getthe grade back and all that,
(37:38):
but yeah yeah, definitely, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
but I think honestly what really helps is if you are
a freelance writer, choosing aniche that's interesting, if you
like.
There are certain topics that Ican write about forever and
never get bored of, but thereare also topics that, like, I
can't even squeeze a paper outof because I'm just so bored for
(38:07):
that by the information or Idon't care, or whatever.
So it's really important to bein an industry that you are
knowledgeable about and areinterested in.
I think that really helps.
With writers block, I'vedefinitely had moments though
still I think it's inevitablewhere you sit down and it's like
the words are just not coming,and that's why it's also really
(38:29):
important to make sure that youhave enough time before your
deadline, because if you sitdown and try and write something
and it's just not happening,you can take a few minutes and
then come back to it and thenmaybe the writers block will
have passed.
But at the same time, like,your clients are depending on
you.
So sometimes you just got towrite it.
You just, even if you don'twant to, or even if nothing's
coming to you, if you sit therelong enough, you know you'll get
(38:51):
past it.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
So what are some of those topics that you feel like
you can write forever about?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Self development for sure.
I just think there's like anendless amount.
I think psychology is reallyinteresting, the gym philosophy.
I'm definitely like an ideasperson, so I think all that
stuff is really interesting.
I would say also so like one ofmy clients right now.
She's a pretty big matchmakerin New York City and I just
(39:23):
think the stuff that she talksabout is so fun and interesting
and she's she's like she's sofunny.
She's got this great comedicundertone to all the stuff that
she says and the advice that shegets to people, so that, you
know, entertaining and I like towrite about that and I really
enjoy working with her.
And then also just anythingthat I know is going to help
(39:46):
somebody and help change theirlife or help them get the
support that they need, anythingthat feels meaningful.
That's pretty easy to writeabout too.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
That's awesome.
So storytelling storytelling isdefinitely a big thing.
When it comes to writing,reading.
We all want to read stories,listen to stories, watch stories
that unfold in a good way.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your creative process and
how you go about juststructuring your articles, blog
(40:16):
posts and things like that?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It's funny.
I think a lot of it issubconscious now, like I've just
gotten in the habit offollowing a certain structure,
so kind of second nature, I willsay.
There is a kind of storing,still a storytelling structure
that I came across and this issuper valuable when it comes to
anything like copywriting,whether you're designing your
(40:41):
website for your business andyou're writing the copy for
everything, or if you're writinga blog or whatever it may be.
So there's this thing, and Idon't some of your listeners
might be familiar with this.
Joseph Campbell has this thingcalled the heroes journey, which
is like the classicstorytelling structure that you
see in any movie, like, if youpay attention, star Wars or
(41:06):
Harry Potter or any of the TomCruise movies.
Like they all it's a differentstory, but they all follow the
same structure, and it startsout as there's a hero who has a
problem, who then meets a guide.
That guide gives the hero aplan which exhorts him into
action, and then that eitherresults in success or failure,
(41:28):
and you can follow that formulafor your business too.
So there is an author his nameis Donald Miller and I would
actually recommend this book foranybody who has a business who,
if they don't want to hire acopywriter this is the only book
that they'll ever need to writetheir own copy and he uses this
(41:48):
heroes journey structure tobuild a website that's super
readable, that converts moreleads into buyers, and you
basically make the customer thehero and then your companies
that guide, leading them towardsthe result that they want.
So I have found that structureto be pretty foolproof.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
What are some of your favorite stories?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I love Harry Potter.
I think that's.
That's something I rewatch justabout every year.
It's funny I this is somethingthat I've learned about,
definitely more recently.
Growing up, I read a lot ofnonfiction, which doesn't
necessarily follow the samestorytelling structure, but I'm
(42:37):
more recently.
I've been reading more fictionand missing this pattern in a
lot of the books that I've beenreading.
So, but yeah, I love it, likefantasy novels, like I just read
this book called Fourth Wingthat's got dragons in it and
super cool Harry Potter Akatar,that kind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So yeah, I can just just think to remember the Spies
and reading when I was a kid.
But I found this series byJames Patterson called Maximum
Ride and it's a fantasy bookseries about how these kids that
got experimented on and theyhave wings and they're getting
hunted and I can definitelyresonate with liking that style
(43:20):
of story.
For sure I'll definitely haveto.
What did you say the book wascalled that you just finished?
It's called yeah, it's called,oh the one, I just the fantasy
one with dragons.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Oh yeah, it's called.
Fourth Wing and the sequel justcame out to.
I still need to read the sequel, but it's pretty great.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Have you ever experienced any type of imposter
syndrome?
Why would people want to pay mefor my services, that sort of
thing?
I know that a lot of peoplethat I've interviewed have
struggled with this a little bitof, you know, not feeling good
enough.
My brother, he has aphotography business and I know
that he was battling his owndemons in the fact of it took
(44:00):
him like a year to get startedbecause he knew that his work
was good but he kind ofundercharged for his services,
not thinking that, oh, someone'snot going to pay me X for this.
Have you ever struggled withsomething like that?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, definitely, and I think it's especially
difficult for people like yourbrother who are in photography
or like in any industry wherethe rates aren't like identical,
like one person will havedifferent rates from another
person.
In stuff Like whether you'refreelance writer, freelance
graphic designer, freelancephotographer, your rates are
(44:36):
arbitrary.
You just make them up yourself.
So that was the thing that washardest for me, because,
naturally, like I think likeimposter syndrome is real and
it's really easy to get in yourhead about like why, why, what's
up, pay me for?
Like, especially when you'restarting out, you're like I
don't know what I'm doing, likeI haven't done this before.
So you're like I guess I'lljust accept pennies and that'll
(44:57):
be okay.
But I think having like supportor some people in your circle
who are maybe doing somethingsimilar to you can really help.
I'm in different freelancesaying Facebook groups and
sometimes people will just likethey'll put a, they'll make a
post in there, like a projectthat they're working on.
They're like hey, here, likeI'm, this is the project, here's
(45:20):
the scope, here's everythingthat it's going to be, this is
what I'm going to tell them thatI'm like that the rate is what
do you think about that?
And a lot of people will go inand be like hey, you're really
undercharging, like I do thesame thing and I charge this
much, and so seeing what otherpeople charge for the same thing
that you do, I think thatreally helps validate, like
(45:41):
where your pricing comes from.
I think it's also reallyimportant to understand, like
the value that you're deliveringand like it's important that
your rate and the value thatyour client is going to match,
because I just think a lot ofpeople really undersell
themselves, like they solveproblems that are really
important but they're not evenreally charging with that.
Solving that problem is worth.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Absolutely.
We live in a world whereconvenience is becoming more and
more of a thing.
So if you order DoorDash andthe same meal that you could
have gotten yourself, there'sall these fees that people are
willing to pay for theconvenience.
So if you're able to solve aproblem that a lot of people
have, that becomes more valuable.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I heard a quote one time thatjust stuck with me.
I don't remember where I heardit, but it was basically
somebody saying you will getpaid in proportion to the size
of the problem that you solve.
So the bigger problems that youcan solve, the more money that
you can make.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Absolutely so.
This isn't really from awebsite or anything.
This is just through myexperience, is something that
I've come up with and it's thefour pillars of a good job,
career.
So I think financialcompensation, management If you
some kind of boss or, like inyour case, if you manage
yourself, work, life balance andbenefits.
(46:57):
With those four things in mind,we'll just go through one one
of them at a time, so we'll gofinancial compensation first.
Out of 10.
How would you rate your career?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I would say probably a nine or a 10.
Freelance writing can be superlucrative if you persevere in
our patient.
It depends on your niche.
So if you're working in tech,that's going to be different
than working in education andthat kind of a thing.
But I've talked to people.
I know people can.
You can make a really strongsix figure income and you can
(47:33):
also have the time freedom thatcomes along with it Not to say
there aren't challenges, but Ithink there is a lot of
potential for some goodfinancial compensation.
So, yeah, maybe a nine out of10.
That's awesome.
So the work life balance.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
One thing that I really struggled with in my last
position was so I ran awarehouse for the better part of
two years and at the time itwas the most money that I'd ever
made.
So it was good from a financialstandpoint, but the work life
balance part was way off.
I was working 16 17 hour daysand wasn't getting to see my
family.
I was.
(48:10):
My diet was off.
I wasn't getting to train likeI wanted to.
What is the work life balanceLike?
How do you balance yourprojects versus your personal
life?
Out of 10?
Yeah, I would say that this isa good balance.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Yeah, I would say that this is this is also going
to be an eight or nine out of 10, but there's a caveat, and the
caveat is you have to havestrong boundaries.
You can have a fantastic worklife balance, like I know some
people.
So there's this whole communityof people actually called they
call themselves digital nomadsand they basically just travel
(48:46):
the world and then they worklike a lot of freelancers, like
they're not working full timehours, they're working part time
hours, but they're making afull time income.
So you can have a really great,healthy work life balance and
you don't have to start workuntil the time that you want to
start work.
You're probably not going to beworking in eight hour or eight
hour work day.
You're probably going to beworking more, like four or five
(49:06):
hours maybe.
So there's a lot of potentialthere.
But you have to also be reallycareful and conscious of your
workload, because it can bereally easy to take too much on
or, if you're not chargingenough and you have to take on
more clients in order tocompensate for that income, that
can take a toll on you, likeyou were saying, like your
health, and I've definitely beenin that situation before where
(49:29):
I just like the turnover timeswere too fast, it was too much,
and I wasn't able to prioritize,like my health and that kind of
a thing, the way that I wouldhave wanted to.
So, again, the potential isthere, that's.
The skill that you have tolearn along the way is how to
set those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Absolutely, and so benefits.
So this could be anything fromthings that your job allows you
to do Do you have a pension or401k, things like that?
So we'll go benefits next.
What are some of the benefitsof being a freelance writer?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Sure.
So I would say the benefitsdefinitely like time freedom is
going to be the biggest one isyou just you are not like a
chain to a desk for eight hours.
You're probably going to havemost of your day free.
So that's a huge benefit andthat allows you.
You're working remote, so ifyou want to go travel, you can
just take your work with you.
(50:27):
That's a huge benefit.
And you also just you get a lotof autonomy over independence
over the clients that you'rechoosing and the work that you
want to do.
So that's really great.
The only thing I would givebenefits maybe a seven out of 10
because as a freelancer slashsolopreneur, you don't.
(50:50):
You don't have a pension likeliteral, like work benefits, you
don't have insurance.
You have to pay for all thosethings that yourself you can
build those into your rights sothat you can afford them.
But you're not going to havethat cush, those cushy, same
cushy benefits that you get froma traditional nine to five job.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, and then we talked a little bit about this
earlier.
It was management, so likemanaging yourself.
How would you rate that versebeing in a job before where
you're, you've got like astructure boss and a structure
power dynamic within the company.
How would you rate essentiallybeing a solopreneur or being
your own boss?
How would you rate that out of10?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
8 out of 10.
I think I mean the same asbefore.
There's pros and cons, but Ithink if you can figure out how
to manage yourself, it can bereally nice to have that
independence and choice overyour working style and how many
hours you want to work and thatkind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Absolutely so.
One of the last things that Ilike to do is okay, so we've
talked about your journey, wetalked about how you've got
there.
What do you?
Where do you see yourself inthe next one to two years?
What are some of your goals foryour business?
Speaker 2 (52:03):
So I'm right now I'm actually looking to diversify a
little bit and make moneythrough multiple different
outlets.
So I have freelancing, but also, like my personal writing is
really important to me.
So about a month ago I starteda sub stack and sub stack is
really cool because you canwrite a newsletter and people.
(52:23):
It's a good way for people todiscover you.
It's kind of like a socialmedia platform, like a Facebook
or a Twitter, but for writersand people can also support you
for a few bucks a month.
So if you have a strongfollowing on there, that can be
a nice like secondary income.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
And I would also.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly.
It's pretty cool.
You can discover some reallyinteresting people on there, a
lot of, actually, like famousauthors like I don't know about
James Patterson, but there's alot of other authors who have
written books, who also have asub-stack so you can follow
along with their writing, asidefrom just the books that they're
publishing.
So it's pretty cool.
I'd also like to write a bookat some point, because I know
(53:04):
there's a way to kind ofmonetize that and get another
stream of income through that,and then I'd also.
My goal is really to keep aroster of about two to three,
maybe four, clients and have aworkload of about 15 to 20 hours
a week, while making aconsistent, you know, viable
income Down the road.
I'd love to invest some of thatcash flow into real estate, but
(53:28):
that's probably a few yearsaway.
But that's come.
I plan for the foreseeablefuture.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
No, that's cool.
I definitely want to get intoreal estate myself.
It'll be one of the next fewepisodes that I'll release on
here.
I'll be interviewing a realestate agent to pick his brain
on what are the steps to get toowning your first property
outside of a home.
Be on the lookout for that.
So well, yeah, I've reallyenjoyed hearing your story.
(53:54):
So could you give the listenerslike, if you were to go back to
your 18, 19, that's exactlywhat you want to do what would
be the roadmap of how you wouldget there quicker?
What's the most efficientroadmap to becoming a freelance
writer?
Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, I think the main thing is to just take
action quickly, like even if youdon't have all the information
or you feel like you're going todo it wrong.
I think it's good to just jumpin and get started.
In terms of specifics, though,would I would tell my past self
for anybody who's interested inbecoming a freelance writer to
choose a niche.
So your niche should be like anindustry or a topic that you
(54:36):
maybe already have somebackground knowledge in and that
you also like and want to writeabout and also has some.
There's some money in thatindustry.
So that could be tech, thatcould be the lifestyle niche,
that could be pet care, whatever.
So it's important to choose aniche, because once you choose
one, you can become an expert inthat, and the further down that
(54:56):
road you go, the more moneythat you can charge people.
So, once you choose a niche,I'd recommend choosing one or
two services you want to offer.
So, whether that's copywritinglike you want to write people's
product descriptions on theirwebsite, or you want to write ad
copy, or if you want to writeblogs I would choose one or two
(55:17):
services to focus on, get reallygood at, get a lot of practice
with, and then you want to makea portfolio of at least three
sample pieces that you can showto potential clients.
So whatever services you want tooffer, you want to come up with
some examples of those likewhat those services might look
like.
You don't have to work with aclient before you can make that
(55:37):
portfolio.
You can write they call itwriting on spec which basically
you can just pretend that, likea company hired you to write
their product descriptions andthen write their product
descriptions, as long as you puton there like this piece was
written on spec, that's totallyfine to use and then from there
just jump in.
You don't even need a website.
You can have a website, butyour portfolio could literally
(55:59):
just be a folder on Google Drivethat you share with a potential
client.
So it can be really simple.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
No, that's awesome and I think that there's going
to be a lot of people that getvalue out of the conversation
that we've had today.
Where can people find you andconnect with you and your
services on social media?
Your website?
Where can they go?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you're interested in workingwith me, my website is
alainaferriscom and my.
You can also reach out to me onInstagram.
On my Instagram, I think it'salainaemferris, and also, if
you're interested in justfollowing along with me on
Substack, I have a freenewsletter you can follow and
(56:41):
that's just going to besubstackcom slash at Alaina
Ferris.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
All right.
Well, we will definitelyinclude all of Elena's
information where you can findher if you would want to work
with her, if you want to followalong on her substack.
We will have all of that in theshow notes.
Is there anything else that youwant to get out there before we
let you go?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
I don't think so.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity, though it was great
to talk to you, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
This has been another episode of the Clever Angle
podcast.
Thank you today to our guestElena for coming on and sharing
her story and her interestingcareer with us.
Thank you everyone forlistening and until next time,
peace.
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