February 1, 2024 • 53 mins
Matt Renner serves as Vice President of Seneca Environmental, a tribally owned and controlled Earth-healing solutions company focused on helping commercial customers achieve ambitious climate goals while supporting the long-term well-being of the Seneca Nation and other Indigenous people. His work focuses on partnership development and customer acquisition to create unprecedented collaboration and profitably accelerate climate action.
Matt has worked as a nonprofit executive in clean energy, climate policy, and journalism for over a decade, focusing on the near-term social and economic impacts of climate change. He was the head of Climate Mobilization and now serves on their board of directors. He began his career as an investigative reporter and later became the Executive Director of the World Business Academy to focus on the transition to a climate-constrained economic paradigm.
Matt has a BA degree in Political Science and Government from the University of California, Berkeley.
Topics Discussed Include:
· How Seneca Environmental is set up and its main goals.
· Why the Seneca Nation set up a specific section to invest in clean climate change solutions.
· How Seneca Environmental made the 2023 Time100 List and what Matt has done to make Seneca Environmental unique.
· An outline of the work Renner has done for the Native American community and for corporate businesses on producing clean energy.
· Why Seneca Environmental’s business model is working for both the Native American community and corporate businesses.
· How Seneca Environmental’s model and efforts can be replicated with other tribes and businesses to help the clean energy movement going forward.
Further Reading:
· The Seneca Environmental web site
· Video overview of the Seneca Nation
· Federal Tax Credits for Businesses
· Department of Energy Loan Programs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gregory A. Williams (00:10):
Thanks for joining us for another episode
of climate money watchdog wherewe investigate and report on how
federal dollars are being spenton mitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan,
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please
(00:31):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and to consider making adonation. My name is Greg
Williams, and I learned toinvestigate and report on waste,
fraud and abuse in federalspending. While working at the
project on government oversight,or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned
to do independent research, aswell as to work with
(00:51):
confidential informants orwhistleblowers to uncover things
like overpriced spare parts,like the infamous $435 hammers,
and expensive military weaponssystems that didn't work as
advertised. I was taught by myco host Dino racer, who founded
Pogo in 1981, and foundedclimate money watchdog with me
(01:12):
in 2022. Dena has spent 40 yearsinvestigating and sometimes
recovering millions of dollarswasted by the Defense Department
and other branches ofgovernment. She's done this at
Pogo as an independentjournalist, as an author and as
a professional investigator.
Our guest tonight is MattRenner, that serves as vice
(01:34):
president of Senecaenvironmental a an organization
owned and controlled by theSeneca Nation and works on earth
healing solutions. Book focusedon helping commercial customers
achieve ambitious climate goals,while supporting the long term
(01:55):
well being of the Seneca Nation,and other indigenous people. His
work focuses on partnershipdevelopment and customer
acquisition to createunprecedented collaboration and
profitably accelerate climateaction. Matt has worked as a
nonprofit executive in cleanenergy, climate policy and
journalism for over a decade,focusing on the near term social
(02:18):
and economic impacts of climatechange. He was the head of
climate mobilization, and nowserves on the board of
directors. He began his careeras an investigative reporter,
and later became the ExecutiveDirector of the World Business
Academy, to focus on thetransition to a climate
constrained economic paradigm.
Matt has a BA degree inPolitical Science and Government
(02:39):
from the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley. Welcome.
Thanks for having me. Great.
Dina Rasor (02:49):
Yeah, I just like to say, say this Dina Rasor, I'd
like to say a few words aboutMatt and the mountain came to
interview me one day on militarystuff and ended up recruiting me
to write a column for the onlinemagazine truth out, and we
worked together for five yearson that that was fun working
(03:09):
there. And but then I startedgetting and I called up Matt and
said, what needs to be done? Youknow, I'm looking for a new
project. And he said, theclimate money has to be watched.
There's nobody doing it. And youknow, like, the Pentagon. Yeah,
there's lots of people watching,but the climate money and and
large amount of money that'scoming in, it needs to have
(03:32):
oversight. So that's when Istarted thinking about climate
money watchdog. So Matt is thespark and idea for doing a book.
And now finally got him as aguest, which I'm really pleased.
So,
Matt Renner (03:47):
Dina, thanks for having me. And I just want to
say like, Greg, I learned somuch from your work, and pogos
work, and then your long tenurein in journalism, and it's been
great working with you. So I'mglad to be here.
Dina Rasor (04:00):
Yeah, I'm glad we're working on the same ideas now.
Okay, well, my first questionis, you know, this is a unique
thing. In fact, I when I wasdoing my research to find out
that you guys got on the Timemagazine 100 Climate list, which
is quite an honor, because youhave such an interesting model
(04:23):
of what you're doing. So let'sstart out with that is explain
how the Seneca environmental isset up and its main goals.
Matt Renner (04:32):
Sure, yeah. Thank you. I'm Seneca environmental
synthesis. And the summary isessentially we are a tribally
owned renewable energydevelopment company. We have
aspirations of working in othersectors as well, including earth
healing solutions. Like naturalreforestation, carbon
(04:54):
sequestration through means thatare hard and not just offsets.
We plan on doing renew Lowenergy work for the long term
benefit of good news are acareer owned by I was new to the
concept of tribal youngbusiness. It turns out that
native governments, tribes,nations are the only form of
(05:17):
government in the United Statesthat can own and operate a for
profit business. That was newsto me, even coming out of the
space that you described in mybio as a thinker about the next
paradigm of business. The reasonthat was so appealing and the
reason I made the jump from thenonprofit sector to this kind of
hybrid for profit, but with thereal clear social benefit
(05:37):
company, is because I see thisas a structure that could really
work for bringing together someof the incentives and corporate
ethos of the for profit economy.
But combining that with socialmission and doing climate
action, that is just as a resultof it being housed inside of
native communities. So Senecaenvironmental came from this
(06:02):
idea that the Seneca Nation isworking to diversify, diversify
their economic activities. Rightnow they have casinos, gas
stations, and engage in federalcontracting work to serve
contracts with the federalgovernment. But they wanted to
diversify beyond that, becauseof the opportunities to use this
(06:24):
special status as a tribal youngcompany to do basic basically as
a competitive advantage whendealing with corporates who have
ESG goals, for example. So wegot recognized by the 100
climate list, the time 100Climate list is the first time
(06:45):
they've done a climate listbefore and our Board Chairman
Jordan Garrow made the list onour behalf for the idea of
creating a tribally ownedrenewable energy development
company, one of the first of itskind, especially with a mission
to support other nativecommunities in doing what the
Seneca Nation has done anddeveloping renewable energy
(07:07):
assets on their lands to supporttheir people, either financially
or through energy security andindependence. And so our work to
bring that off territory toother communities and other
native communities, wasrecognized as a very impactful
approach to climate action. Thisis a little long winded, but I
(07:31):
just want to set the contexthere. Native communities have
not benefited from renewableenergy. Before this, too much
extent, there's been a lot ofgood work going on at Department
of Energy through the Office ofIndian energy to try and get
projects built and scoped. Butthere's a lot of limitations.
And the biggest one was that theinvestment tax credit, it's, you
(07:54):
know, 30% or more for renewableenergy projects was not
available to Native communitiesbefore the inflation Reduction
Act passed, that changed. Andnow all of a sudden, native
communities and their theirenterprises are in the game on
renewables.
Gregory A. Williams (08:16):
Okay, good, inspiring news. But my
impression is that the mainlever that that Native
organizations have had to pullup to this point is around land
and mineral rights. And that'ssort of a negative leverage, it
stops things but isn'tnecessarily so good at starting
or promoting things. This seemslike fundamental change.
Matt Renner (08:38):
Yeah, I mean, there have been deals that have been
done to make money for Nativecommunities for renewable energy
through land leases, but that'sgenerally not very profitable.
And it tends to create conflict,potentially, with the lease or,
or the side of the LISI of thosedeals because they're working on
native lands. And if theyaren't, taking care of the land,
(09:01):
that those projects can bedirectly in opposition with the
values of the community, not tomention the story of oil and gas
exploitation that we heard innative lands, especially
highlighted by that new movie,the killers of the flower moon,
about the Osage and the effortsto take their mineral wealth.
Yeah, so this, this is a changethere in their stills, a lot of
(09:22):
potential conflict over land useor you know, and making sure
that these projects are doneappropriately, is one of our
main values when we're workingwith other native communities,
and working anywhere else,right, the value of the land is
crucial. I do want to say up tophere that I'm not a member of
(09:43):
the Seneca Nation. I'm anemployee of their company. But
we do work with a number ofpeople who are members of Seneca
Nation, and our board isentirely made up of Seneca as
for our parent company, so weare pretty when we are out there
doing this business, we feel asense of responsibility to
(10:03):
uphold the values of the SenecaNation and act as you know, a
very aligned arm of the nationitself. So we are very
thoughtful about doingdevelopment projects, and
working with private developersand these deals as well to make
sure that they're upholdingthose values.
Dina Rasor (10:26):
Okay, good. Well, um, so before they did, you guys
did sort of a broad range thing.
And so you're specifically nowthe Seneca Nation has set up
this specific section to investin clean energy, and you started
sort of started in solar, butyou spread out. So talk about
that, and tell us all thedifferent areas that you tried
(10:46):
to do clean energy and versuscarbon capture and, and blue
hydrogen and all those otherthings sound like clean energy,
but really aren't?
Matt Renner (10:57):
Yeah, we're pretty focused on solar batteries,
potentially electric vehiclecharging infrastructure,
potentially wind for the right.
Use cases, as you know, thenumber one charge of our company
as a traveling on companies tomake money for the Seneca
Nation. So whatever we do needsto be profitable. And it needs
to have impact for the long terminvestment goals of the Seneca
(11:21):
Nation. So we have a developmentarm that looks at the site
assessments for corporates, andhelp suggest what they might
develop on their facilities,which is a great way to work
with us because those corporatesget to spend their climate
dollars in a way that's promotesjustice directly by funding, a
(11:42):
company that's owned andoperated for the benefit of the
second nation. So they get apoint on their ESG scores in the
environmental category, as wellas one in the social category,
just by signing a contract withus. And then we work with other
native communities to assesstheir opportunities to build
renewable energy projects atscale, and help backstop the
(12:04):
will help develop the financethe capital stack, for the
development of projects and theownership of projects. That also
brings us into contact with thedepartment of energy that has
specific loan programs that havebeen boosted by the inflation
Reduction Act to add billions ofdollars to these programs,
(12:25):
specifically to lend to tribesand communities. So that's,
that's the great thing about,you know, our approach is that
we're trying to make use of thisIRA money that was put out there
in a way that, you know, thecrafters of the legislation
intended. And what I'll tell youis that it's pretty slow going.
(12:46):
Doe has not deployed any ofthose dollars yet, even though
they have somewhere between fourand $20 billion, specifically
for loaning to Nativecommunities to own assets. But
we are in the process with themworking our way through and hope
to be one of the first tribes tocome out of that program with a
with a loan for acquiringassets.
Dina Rasor (13:11):
Hey, well give us an example of maybe walk us through
the sort of soup to nuts thingwe have of how you how you
start. So say a company comes toyou and says, We want to build
help build solar, or you find anarea or a nation that wants to
build solar? How does it whatare the steps? And do you guys
(13:35):
act as a program managers? Or doyou just act as consultants? Or
how do you how's thatstructured?
Matt Renner (13:42):
Yeah, great question. We work at as either
consultants or projectdevelopers, and then eventually
investors on projects. So ifit's a corporate, we tend to go
to them instead of them comingto us, although I'm happy to
take any phone calls that fromcorporates that are looking to
climate action. And our pitch tothem is what I just said, which
is you should work with atribally owned company to make
(14:04):
your renewable energy projectseven more effective, and more
impactful, and that's more justand they're very receptive.
There's a lot of the ethos inthe sustainability community
among companies that are focusedon climate action also includes
spending money to promote racialjustice with their vendors, you
(14:24):
know, being minority owned andoperated and controlled. So that
in that case, we do a siteassessment, they say, we say,
well, where are your facilitiesgive us a list. We look at the
price of power that they'repaying right now. And where they
are in the, you know, latitudelongitude to try and figure out
how the solar resources and thenwe can actually look at their
(14:46):
rooftops from our desktop toolsand the area around them to see
how much solar that you couldcite on their facilities. This
is really becoming a big deal inthe Midwest in a new way than it
was you know, California and NewYork. Massachusetts, parts of
the country have already havesignificant solar program, it's
really taking off elsewhere inTexas, obviously, it's really
(15:09):
taking off elsewhere. Now, asthe economics of solar have
gotten better, and the price ofpower hasn't gone down anywhere,
so we're looking a lot in theMidwest rooftops on facilities
there. So we do that siteanalysis, and come up with a
financial estimate of whetherthese are gonna say, solar
panels are gonna save money ornot for the company, and how
(15:31):
much we can fit on their site.
Because usually, for theseindustrial customers that we're
working with, they can't covertheir whole energy use from
rooftop solar. If they reallywant to, we can scope other
opportunities for them to doenergy production on site, which
could be micro wind, or windturbines. In some places. It
could also be fuel cells thatinitially work from natural gas,
(15:53):
but could be converted to cleanhydrogen, if and when that ever
becomes a thing. And then wepresent it to them and say,
look, here's what we think youcan save based on our analysis.
If you would like us to buildthis for you all, we need to
lose you lease your rooftop andany adjacent land for $1. And we
(16:16):
will build and then own andoperate those assets for you,
and sell the power to you at alower rate than you're currently
paying. That way, they don'thave to pay any upfront money to
get started saving money ontheir power bills. And we get to
own and operate an asset ontheir facility. So it comes out
of their op x instead of theircapex. The that's the how we
(16:39):
work with the corporates, I canalso go into how we work with
Native communities. If you ifyou want to or we can pause
there.
Dina Rasor (16:49):
No, we like I'd like to hear that too. And yeah,
Matt Renner (16:54):
yeah. And then maybe better decided it's often
much more in a consulting roleat first, where are we come in,
you know, our goal is really tobe on the side of the Native
community and help them assesstheir options. As opposed to
coming in and saying, Hey, thisis a great place for solar, at
least is your land. And thenwe'll pay you a fee. And then
(17:19):
basically use that land for 30years, and you don't have to be
involved in the deal. So we dothat through consulting with
them doing an analysis, lookingat options, and then working
with them to understand and whattheir what they'd really like to
do to make money. Yeah, goahead, Greg. Sorry. Yeah,
Gregory A. Williams (17:40):
just interested in any expression,
you may have have the scale ofyour success. So far, you know,
numbers of projects, numbers ofkilowatts, capacity,
whatever might be meaningful toyou?
Matt Renner (17:54):
Yeah, great question. I wish I had a better
story to tell you about that atthe moment. But we are the
inflation Reduction Act put thisindustry on the map and into
play in terms of nativeownership of renewable energy
assets before that it was notviable, because native
communities couldn't make use ofthe investment tax credit. So
(18:14):
we're about two years old. Wehave a pipeline of projects that
we are have in development. Butthe projects that we've actually
built are the second nation hasbuilt renewable energy assets on
their lands. But our companyhasn't was not involved in
those. So there's a communitysolar project in New York, on
(18:38):
the territories of the SenecaNation, and a community wind
project that are both around amegawatt and a half. And those
assets, produce renewableenergy, send it back into the
utilities that are the electricproviders for the territories.
And then the second nationreceives money for essentially
(19:00):
net metering on those assets.
Then they pass on those savingsto their residents. So residents
save about $25 a month from theownership of those assets. This
is a model that we use. When wetalk about renewable energy
options with other nativecommunities.
Dina Rasor (19:15):
You talked about in the Midwest, you're now doing
more. And I one thing I youknow, having driven through the
Great Plains and whatever nowit's amazing how many windmills
there are in this huge amount ofwind power there. Are any of the
Seneca Nation lands in an areathat has a wind if not, what
(19:37):
about other Indian nations?
Matt Renner (19:41):
Yeah, so Seneca Nation is located in Western New
York, about 45 minutes southwestof Buffalo. And the wind
resource is not terrible. Sothere is a wind turbine on
territory that they built andown and operate and it turns
right along and there may beroom for more But their
territories are pretty small.
And so this is opportunity forsome of the plains, tribes and
(20:05):
communities that have massivereservations compared to the
Seneca Nation. There's somereally good wind resources in
Montana. And in some of theplaces that are formerly coal
communities are currently calledcommunities to do some
replacement. There's specialadders in the inflation
Reduction Act for communitiesthat are called energy
(20:28):
communities, they get additionalbonuses to the investment tax
credit subsidy. So we're lookingat those and helping folks
partner on those, the bigchallenge out there is access to
the transmission grid. Sotransmission, grid, people think
about it, as you know, the wiresthat come to your house, the
(20:48):
wires that come to your house,or the distribution grid, the
transmission grid is the wiresthat you see on metal poles that
go long distances, often alongthe highway. And that moves at a
much higher voltage, they'remuch more expensive, and people
basically don't build themunless there's a customer at the
other end. So these reservationsthat are often very far out in
remote areas, don't necessarilyhave access to that high voltage
(21:13):
transmission system. And that'sbeen a very limiting factor for
some of the massive windprojects that are teed up and
ready to go once thetransmission grid or if ever
reaches them.
Gregory A. Williams (21:25):
So when you talk about the community
implementations community solarcommunity wind, does that
specifically mean they hook intothe the the local distribution
grid as opposed to thetransmission grid?
Matt Renner (21:41):
Yes, that is, like a term community, solar
community wind is a littleloose. And it's kind of a state
by state definition, becausethat's where the regulations are
often set, or a utility, bututility definition. But that's a
good rule of thumb is that thoseprojects generally hook into the
distribution grid, as opposed tothe transmission grid, they tend
(22:01):
to be smaller. So they can dothat. You know, you think about
the size being zero, you know,one to 10 megawatts. And you
think about that being about100,000 square feet per megawatt
on a rooftop, or about fiveacres on ground mount for per
(22:22):
megawatt. So if you think abouta 10 megawatt project, it's
usually about 50 acres of land,packed with solar panels. And
generally you can, you canconnect those to the
distribution grid, and that kindof serves the local area, it
does cause some challenges forthe actual operators of the
grid. If you get any bigger thanthat.
Gregory A. Williams (22:43):
You mitigate any of those challenges
with batteries, you can meter,the amount of power that's going
into the grid.
Matt Renner (22:51):
Exactly, yeah, additional storage really helps.
The challenges, I think, are alittle bit overblown. The grid
is the world's largest machine,and it's designed for it was
designed for one way power flowsfrom the power to your home or
business, right. And what we'redoing is we're kind of hacking
it and saying, Well, let'sproduce energy at the end of the
(23:14):
grid and send it back the otherdirection, which it wasn't
designed for, but it is capableof doing and batteries are a
great piece of the puzzle,dropping them in at places where
there's congestion to soak upexcess energy when there is
excess. And to send it out,really maximize the existing
(23:34):
infrastructure without having toreplace it.
Dina Rasor (23:37):
I want to every time we ever talk about increasing
electricity and the grid andeverything, but the thing that I
see, and I can see that it'saffecting the same, the the
regulations now is alsoaffecting the rest of the
country. And that is there justisn't enough of the big, big
(24:02):
electric carrier wires around.
And so it's and it's, it's whento build them, there's all these
little fiefdoms and, andutilities and everybody who has
been for years kind of runningtheir own game and, and
whatever. So there's always ittakes a long time to build
because there's just all thisinternal, you know, fighting
(24:24):
between governments and, andquasi nonprofit electric, you
know, power companies and allthis kind of stuff. And then I
heard is going to be a, youknow, a real big problem
eventually. And I was justwondering if you see that the
same with your work is thatyou're going to be slowed up on
(24:48):
solar and wind if you can't totransport it.
Matt Renner (24:53):
Yeah, interconnection challenges are a
big delay and setback forprojects and it really limit
That's where you're able toactually build. There's a number
of there's, there's a lot ofissues there that to discuss, I
mean, one of them is, the rightsof way themselves that already
exists could be maximized byadding additional lines or re
conducting, I think it's calledwhere you actually take the old
(25:15):
lines out and put better ones inand free up a lot of space. And
there's also an issue of justdata and ownership and control
here, like who actually knowswhat's happening on the grid,
and at what level and thetransmission system, you know, a
lot of that information in someplaces is proprietary, or people
don't even have it. So that'smore of the rural areas, outside
(25:37):
of the Independent SystemOperator areas. But yeah, the
grid itself is a real challenge.
And that's why there's a lot ofwork to build renewable energy
behind the meter for selfconsumption only, so that you
don't have to actually send itback to the grid. A lot of
companies are looking at thatnow. Because they can't get
power to their new facilitiesthat they want to build for all
this new manufacturingfacilities that are opening up.
(25:58):
So they're looking at doing onsite generation with renewables
storage with batteries, on sitegeneration with natural gas, in
some cases, in order to actuallyget the energy they need just to
open their facility. So this isa huge challenge. And something
that, you know, is not onlylimited to, to the Native
American lands, what I would sayspecifically about that issue,
(26:21):
though, is that a lot of thesereservations are seen as targets
for renewable energydevelopment, but also for new
rights of way are larger rightsof way for transmission systems.
And that can create a lot ofconflict, in part because those
are usually private, privatelyowned. So one thing that we're
big advocates of is if you'retrying to do a transmission
(26:44):
project, figure out ways to dohave the community where it's
located actually own it. Thatway, they have real buy in and
with the inflation Reduction Actand the loan programs that are
available. Native communitiescan probably invest in projects
that they weren't able tobefore, and that, you know, 10s
to hundreds of million dollarrange
Dina Rasor (27:07):
as well, I think it also traditionally among the the
tribes and nations across thecountry. lectricity was already
scarce. There was not, you know,I don't know if anyone's ever
driven through, driven throughreservations, especially in the
West with those big long whiteegg things. And you go through
(27:30):
there, and there is a minimalamount of electricity
capability. Because it's becausebecause I think because of the
discrimination all those yearsand money that maybe that
helped, you know, when theyopened some casinos, but it's
still not going to be the samekind. There's, I still feel like
there's, from what I've justanecdotally seen it look like
(27:53):
they're all there, they werealready behind the eight ball
before this clean energy evenstarted on that on an electrical
ability. Yeah,
Matt Renner (28:02):
it's really a human rights issue, frankly, in a lot
of places, you know, NavajoNation has, like, it's 25,000
homes. Without electricity,they're just not connected to
any ground. And communities,especially the rural ones are
much are very underserved interms of energy system. You
know, it's a historical legacyof why these reservations were
(28:24):
placed where they are, in partisn't the is the land. Yeah,
yeah. And so they're very remainunderserved. There's efforts to
try and fix that and a lot ofmoney trying to flow to that.
The Navajo Nation is exploringways to put, you know, little
nano grids, essentially, a smallbattery in a rooftop solar
(28:45):
system that can power thesehouses at much less expense than
their current diesel generatorsthat they use and much cleaner.
So there are efforts trying toaddress that. But you know,
globally, indigenous people areunderserved by electricity, and
all that comes along with it.
And it's a big issue. Also,these lines just don't get
serviced. You know, you talk tofolks in New Mexico, and they
(29:08):
have blackouts constantly ontribal lands. Interestingly, I
got a kick out of this, there'sa real business case to be made
by some of the casinos who haveissues with power, because you
know, their energy in when itturns off, for long enough, all
those machines, the slotmachines have to go and be
(29:30):
reset.
Dina Rasor (29:31):
And not mechanical, they're not mechanical anymore.
They're all
Matt Renner (29:35):
andit blows out there. They're microprocessors
and can actually destroy themachines costume and $25,000 or
something per machine. So it's areal energy access is a real
issue just for the whole economyon some of these places.
Dina Rasor (29:49):
Okay, what what's what's holding up the federal
government in the loans? What isit you know what, that you would
think that they'd want to pushthose out the door right away?
And, you know, I know there's alot of talk about economic
justice. And, and all that. AndI'm finding from talking to some
advocates in New Mexico andArizona and Texas, that there
(30:10):
isn't been a lot the federalgovernment, the federal
government speaks a good game inWashington, DC. But what I've
heard from activists, includingsome native activists that there
is a there's the local federalinfrastructure, especially if
(30:30):
you're going to try to replace acoal plant or replace, you know,
a fossil fuel industry. They,those bureaucrats are, are been
working with the fossil fuelpeople for years and stuff like
that. And so they're reluctantto, you know, you may have
people pounding in Washington,yeah, we're gonna get this out,
we're gonna have economicjustice, we're gonna help you,
(30:51):
we're gonna give out the loans.
But then I've had them when theygo to try to talk to the local
Feds and local state and federalpeople. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do
this great program. But thenwhen they try to find out who's
who's Who is it, that's gettingthe money? Where are they coming
in? Where's the, you know,where's the loans going to? And
what's his company's background?
(31:14):
A lot of times they're told, butlocal federal people that oh,
that's proprietary, we can'ttell you. Of course, they can
tell you. This is not like doingweapons, you know, this was
prep, they're starting to usethe proprietary neti thing that.
So have you run into that a bitof that being one of the things
(31:35):
that slowed it down? Or is itjust plain old, good old
fashioned bureaucracy?
Matt Renner (31:41):
Great question. I can only really speak to the
tribal and program office at theDepartment of Energy. And what
I'd say is that there's peoplethere that are trying really
hard to move that money, andthey're doing everything they
can to find ways to getborrowers into the program. And
(32:01):
to get projects built with thosedollars. I think their
intentions are really good atDOD. I think the challenge is
that the program was neverreally set up to move quickly.
And there's a lot of diligenceto be done on these projects,
including the NEPA, the NationalEnvironmental Protection Act
studies that are required foranything the federal government
funds. So one of the challengesthat that NEPA stuff, the
(32:26):
requirement pushes the abilityof the dollars to get up or back
nine months to a year. So youcan get your project teed up and
apply and then they have to do astudy and then you get the money
a year later. If you're actuallyin the commercial markets,
trying to buy a competitiveproject, with that money, that
year is unacceptable to thepeople selling the project,
(32:46):
they're not gonna give you thebid, have you win the bid, and
then wait a year to get paid. Sothat's one challenge that we're
working to help overcome byspeeding that process up a bit.
Other ones are just that there'sthere's a general lack of
capacity in the industry fornative owned renewable energy,
because it's only two years old.
There's a lot of really smartpeople at in these native
(33:08):
communities in these governmentswho are working really hard. But
there's just not that many ofthem in terms of how big these
projects are, and can be,there's a real lack of
professional support. So there'sa number of groups, including a
company called or nonprofitcalled the Alliance for tribal
clean energy, that are workingin backstops in that capacity.
(33:29):
That's also one of the thingsthat we intend to do and have
done as consultants is to fillin gaps with other native
communities, to bring our teamto help them get their projects
done. And then lastly, it's it'sa matter of, do we need to see
that these projects areprofitable, and that the
(33:49):
borrower is going to be able topay back the loan, they have a
low interest rate. So thathelps. But it's, you have to do
kind of the same steps you woulddo from a bank for each one of
these projects, and it takestime and the projects, it costs
money. So the projects have tohave upfront capital and
development capital to put in tothe process and put at risk in
(34:11):
order to get the pre developmentand development work done. To
make them eligible for the loan.
And so that's a that's a prettyrisky proposition. And something
that not all communities areready to do, especially at
scale.
Gregory A. Williams (34:30):
So to what extent are you set up to clear
or overcome those hurdles?
Matt Renner (34:35):
Yeah, I mean, our approach, we haven't done it
yet. So I think we are and we'revery close. But our approach is,
first of all, we're trying toacquire existing assets as
opposed to building new ones forour first time through the loan
program office. That way theprojects have an established
track record and how much valuethey're creating, how much
(34:55):
they're worth. They also don'tneed new environmental studies
because they're We're notactually building any new
assets, not disturbing anyground, they're already
operating. So that's, that's ourtactic on the first one, and
then we're also working closelywith the DOD, to help them get
to know us so that they don'thave to reevaluate us as a
(35:17):
company. And as a qualifiedborrower. Every time we bring
them a new project, our theoryis that we get one in and get it
done. And that will help thesecond one get done faster,
which we think is true based onour conversations with them.
Lastly, you know, we have areally great team that we've put
together. So the Seneca Nationhas a really professional
(35:38):
corporate structure where theyessentially have empowered
Seneca holdings to go and dobusiness and these different
fronts. And we've invested a tonof money in people and
expertise, to be able to try andbring kind of the top of the
line professionals in theindustry to bear on this on this
issue. So it's a gamble. Andwe're definitely spending more
(36:01):
than we're making right now.
Trying to set this up. We hopethat that will pay off when we
get a few projects completed anda few investments completed.
Dina Rasor (36:12):
So where where do you Where would you like to see
yourself in two years and fiveyears and 10 years, I know it's
hard to get an idea because ofcourse, a lot of it has to do
with its elected president. Andwhether this money is not cut
eventually cut off. I can seethat that program that help to
(36:34):
help the nation's would besomething that they might want
to get the AX really quickly ifthe if unsympathetic people in
there got through. So where,where but giving the idea that
maybe there there is thatthere's pressure to do this now
and and, you know, positivefeelings about having the the
(36:58):
Native American nations, we havebig participation and a lot of
money been put into it? Where doyou where do you see this going
in two years and five years or10 years? That kind of thing?
What What kind of goals wouldyou have?
Matt Renner (37:15):
Yeah, I think that the work with the corporate
sector is really scalable, Ithink that they're going to
continue to do on siterenewables and have a demand for
renewable energy that's justgoing to grow. A lot of these
major companies have reallyambitious climate goals, but
they don't have a viablestrategy for reaching them. So I
think they looked at onsiterenewables, you know, 10 years
(37:35):
ago. And I think it's time totake another look, because the
economics have changed. And Ithink you'd be a great partner
for anyone who's looking to do aproject that really does weave
in their goals around renewableenergy, along with any goals
around climate and racialjustice. So that's where we're
focused, I'd like to see usworking with three fortune 500
companies to do assessments ontheir facilities, we've got two
(37:57):
in the pipeline. So we need onemore if anyone out there is
listening. And then a lot ofmedium sized businesses to do
Evie charging and on siterenewables. On the larger
project size. I don't know if wehave the capital to pull this
off. But I'd like to see us puttogether a billion dollars in
investment capital to bedeployed in the next 10 years or
(38:19):
less, in order to build a realportfolio of assets that are
fully owned and operated byNative communities, I think
that'd be a really big win. Andwe'd really help exercise a lot
of that DOD money. Regardless ofthe political risk, I think this
is still viable, as long as theydon't change the tax credit to
exclude native communities likeit used to be.
Gregory A. Williams (38:41):
It sounds like you've got strategies to
overcome some of the moreimportant obstacles by locally
generated power consumed onsite, you don't have to worry
about the transmission gridaccess. By working with private
companies, you're gettingcapital from them, instead of
getting it from time consumingloans with the from the federal
(39:02):
government. And in the meantime,you have these tax credits, to
distinguish yourself from otherdevelopment organizations that
these companies might otherwiseturn to. Is that a reasonable
summary? And are there otheradvantages you have?
Matt Renner (39:17):
Yeah, I think that the, the thing that we have
access to, if we can make use ofthe loan program at DOE is we
have a competitive cost ofcapital. So in this current high
and higher cost of moneyenvironment, you know, the Fed
interest rates a lot higher thanit was a few years ago, we
actually have an advantage to beable to borrow almost at that
(39:38):
Fed rate. And that makes ourbids for acquiring projects very
competitive, even with ourlimited size and experience. So
that's a key advantage thatwe're hoping to leverage. The
other thing that we think thatwe can bring to bear here is
being really early and first. Soonce we get a couple of projects
(39:59):
on data lands completed thathave the structures that will be
public in terms of theirstructures that really benefit
native communities not justdoing a land lease and the more
exploitative model, we thinkthat that's going to scale. And
you know, in Indian country asits, as it's called, it's you
get a reputation really fast,either good or bad. And if we
(40:19):
can get a good reputation andshow that these projects are
working for Native communities,we think that we can scale in
that direction pretty quickly,the transmission issue is going
to always be there. And theremay be some ways around it. I
know you all follow the hydrogenconversation a lot. Well, this
is an opportunity to do greenhydrogen with new build
renewables. And in doing so,circumvent the transmission
(40:43):
issue, because if you can makehydrogen on site, co located
with new renewable energydevelopment, you can not have to
worry about that transmissionproblem. There's some real
challenges to that system, interms of finding instability and
making sure you're doingbusiness with a company that's
not going to go out of business,and leave you with no one to buy
(41:03):
your renewable energy thatyou've that you're producing.
But I think those can beovercome to working with the
right companies.
Dina Rasor (41:11):
Yeah, is there anybody that's looking or any of
your projects looking at?
Because of course, this is thedarling of a lot of industries
right now is LED is looking atthe carbon capture. thing to try
to say, you know, what's left?
(41:32):
Yeah,
Matt Renner (41:33):
my thinking on carbon capture is in carbon
credits in general is that ifyou can find ways to really
sequester carbon and a hard formand a permanent form, I'm
interested in talking about it.
So my, the, I've just had acouple calls today on biochar as
an option, where you actuallytaking wood waste and turning it
into a more permanent biocharthat you can bury in the ground,
(41:55):
or use as a as a component ofthe well remediation in oil and
gas wells. So that you canactually put biochar in those
wells that helped clean up theemissions from them, and serve
as a plug along with concrete orcement. And so there's some
carbon capture stuff to be done.
(42:18):
That could be good. I'm not abit I'm not really into the
offsets. Those are too much of asmoke and mirrors for me. But
there are other there's anothergreat one that do you think
you'd like? called Enhanced rockweatherization? Have you heard
of this one? No. Okay, so thisis, this is a little complex,
but I love it. It's it'sessentially taking baths, salt
(42:41):
rock, grinding it up andspreading it on agricultural
fields. The farmers love it,because it actually is a
nutrient provider. And so it canbe an alternative fertilizer.
And then when it rains, thatrainwater mixes with the basalt
and captures carbon in theprocess, it's a quest, or is it
in a hard form, eventually goingout through rivers into the
(43:03):
ocean, in a benign form. Soenhanced rock weatherization is
a cool one that I'm reallyexcited about as a real, solid
carbon capture mechanism. Youknow, the tax credit and all
that is interesting andimportant. I'm not an expert on
it at all. But I am interestedin seeing if there's ways we can
leverage that to.
Dina Rasor (43:23):
Yeah, there's a lot of people think of carbon
capture, they think about, oh,we capture it in this most
smokestack, you know, we, wecapture the carbon in the mismo
sack, so we can continue to donatural gas and coal, whatever.
And then, and there's been somequestionable on how they report
it, and whether they really arecapturing that much. But then
(43:45):
the other thing is to take thatco2 and pressurize it and put it
in pipelines. They're talking.
Princeton put out a map, apipeline map, that was the first
time I looked at it, I said,that isn't gonna work, because
it's more pipelines than we haveoil pipelines in the United
States. And you know, howpopular pipelines are now. And
of course, this is highlypressurized any water Yes, in
(44:08):
it, they blow up. And so thewhole idea of carbon capture, I
think, has to be sort of not,not damp out, burning it
capturing the carbon, putting itthrough, putting it through
pipelines and then put it backin the ground. It's the cost of
that is prohibitive, and withoutvery generous tax credits from
(44:29):
the IRA wouldn't be possible. Sothat's a that's part of capital
carbon capture. Most peoplethink they don't think of the
more creative stuff.
Matt Renner (44:41):
Yeah, I agree that that system is definitely
problematic. I mean, number onereason being that we need to
take carbon out of theatmosphere as opposed to
becoming carbon neutral, right,we actually have to reverse the
amount of carbon that's in theatmosphere. So we need to get to
zero new emissions. And then weactually need Pull out
historical emissions if we'regonna have a chance at surviving
(45:03):
the climate emergency. So if youjust get to neutral by capturing
all the carbon that comes out ofburning natural gas, and then
you have to go sequester itsomewhere, in a sense, you're
taking away an opportunity topull carbon out of the
atmosphere and sequester thatinstead. So I think it's not a
great policy. Yeah.
Dina Rasor (45:19):
And the problem is, too, it's also so expensive. And
it takes so much energy andcarbon based energy to do all
this stuff that you end upnegating, and everything that
you've all, you know, oh, wesaved all this stuff. But yeah,
it's what you call the net? Whatdo you have to do for the,
what's the net amount, you'regoing to do? Not the amount that
(45:39):
you get? The gross you're goingto get out of it. But they're
really talking about now youhave to, you have to count the
manufacturing and the work andthe energy of everything you do
from that plant from that planon to see if it's correct,
rather than just picking out thegood news of some of the carbon
(46:00):
that you may have saved?
Matt Renner (46:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, I could see asystem in 20 years, 30 years
where we have 10% of our energy,that's still being electricity
that's still being provided bynatural gas with carbon capture,
I don't think that's out of therealm of possibility. Because
there's going to be someflexibility, potentially, that
might be the most efficient wayto do it. But that should be
very limited amount, itshouldn't be a significant
(46:24):
portion beyond that kind offlexible. Generation. One for me
is where there's so much carbonto be dealt with that any
emissions should be avoided asmuch as possible. And we should
look for gas for solar and windto do as much of that as
(46:46):
possible until we actually needto have some flexible fossil
that.
Dina Rasor (46:52):
Yeah, I say this almost every podcast, but it's
so good. BILL MCKIBBEN from 350.
Org, he did an article onlending magazine, and I really
someday gonna write him writehim up. He was one of our first
guests write him up and say, canI make this into a bumper
sticker? Because the headlinefor that was, the Earth is on
fire, stop burning things. Andso when people get on, and they
(47:14):
get all confused about capcarbon capture, and this and
maybe we can do that, and maybewe can make start with blue
hydrogen and make it greenlater. And you know, by using
natural gas, and blah, blah,blah. And I always say to
myself, when I look at a projectis, are you burning anything?
You're burning something, you'vegot to do something about the
(47:37):
carbon. And, you know, it's itclarifies it, because there are
a lot of people out there withall kinds of credits. And this
isn't just the warm, fuzzyenvironmentalists, these are
there are people with those,those carbon credits and things
like that, that they're in theIRA, which is very lucrative
(47:58):
that they are looking there, youknow, the sharks are circling.
And I can see, and I try to tellenvironmentalists, you know, not
everybody is interested in theenvironment. But if there's
money, they will come and dothis stuff. So I, that's what
the new viewers or listenersshould do is that every time
they get confused aboutsomething, and they say, the
(48:20):
Earth is on fire, stop burningthings. And if this is
continuing to burn, this shouldbe the thing that you don't
emphasize the most use toemphasize the stuff we don't
burn.
Matt Renner (48:31):
Yeah, it's a really good rule of thumb. I totally
agree. Okay.
Dina Rasor (48:34):
Well, you have anything else you'd like to add?
Matt Renner (48:37):
You know, I think the bottom line for me is that
the inflation Reduction Act is amassive win on a lot of levels,
if it can be implemented, right,right. And you're taking a look
at how it's being implementedwrong as a key service that you
all are doing, and I reallyappreciate it. And I want to be
able to go out and tell thestories of where it's providing
benefit, and how we can lift itup in this critical election
(49:02):
year. I personally, am concernedabout not the climate
legislation itself, just notgetting the credit it deserves
for the impact it can have oncreating a green and secure
future. It's not enough. And mytime in the climate movement
really led me to believe that weneed about 10x, what was done
(49:24):
under the inflation ReductionAct to move at the speed we need
to and I think there's a muchbigger role for the federal
government. But it's a goodstart. That has really catalyzed
a lot of thinking and a lot ofclarity for the industry. And
I'm not a huge fan ofprivatizing all this work. I
think there's a much better wayto do it, but it is the card
we've been dealt and it's it'swhat we're ready to play. And so
(49:46):
I think it's an all hands ondeck effort to make sure that
money is being lost, but also toaccelerate the deployment of
those funds along pathways thatwe know are good. So anyone
who's listening who's workingHatfield Thank you. And anyone
who wants more information aboutSeneca environmental can check
us out at Seneca environmental,calm, and just drop me a note on
(50:09):
there if you want to answer anyquestions.
Gregory A. Williams (50:13):
Are there any specific pieces of advice
you'd have for for other nativecommunities to kind of replicate
what you've done or takeadvantage of what you've done?
Matt Renner (50:24):
Yeah, the native communities that I'm in touch
with have been doing a lot ofgreat thinking and work on their
own on these fronts. It'susually a capacity issue. This
is renewable energy developmentis not the highest of their
needs. In some of these morerural communities, and more
economically disadvantagedcommunities, water and housing
(50:45):
are primary, especially in theWest, housing everywhere, as we
know. So what we can do is comein as a third party with our own
ability to do assessments andsupport an investigation into
renewable energy options forNative communities. And our
commitment is really to be ontheir side through that process.
(51:06):
And we usually try to get paidthrough grants to do that
consulting work. And then wehave the ability to bring
flexibility and capital to theirprojects and partner with them.
I don't know if I got to thisnuance, but taxpaying entities
and non taxpaying entities can'tco own projects, or else that
will mess up the investment taxcredit. So we are a non
(51:28):
taxpaying entity, which allowsus to partner with other native
communities that are also nontaxpaying entities on their side
of the deal, to be able to do coinvestment and joint ventures
that keep the inflation and theinvestment tax credit intact. So
that's a lot of words to say, weare trying to figure out how to
(51:49):
make these projects really workfor Native communities, and we
have some specific knowledge tosupport their efforts. But
basically, we can also just doreferrals to companies that we
know who share our values and,and want to see good projects
come for Native community. Sowe're very welcome open to being
in touch and giving our advice,anything we can do to support
(52:11):
those efforts.
Gregory A. Williams (52:15):
All right.
Well, this has been it's beenexciting to hear about the work
that you've been doing, and Ihope you'll be back in the
future to tell us about yoursuccess. Especially if you
managed to get one of those DoEloans. Yes.
Dina Rasor (52:31):
Yeah, we'd like you to come back and you know, maybe
six months and say it's gettingbetter, it's getting worse, you
know, that kind of thing.
Because I think that that'ssomething that's educational for
people there's a lot going to behe's out there and it's gonna be
interesting to see how themarket market and the federal
government sorts that out. Soreally appreciate really
(52:52):
appreciate you doing this andany other native groups that
want to come on that you knowof, please give us your name and
number because we we are we wantwe are very interested in having
a lot of a lot of nations comeon and and really do the really,
really see how they're workingout. In fact, I just got
(53:16):
contacted by some other anothertribe, so I will let you know
how that goes.
Matt Renner (53:22):
Fantastic. Yeah, great to be on and keep up the
great work. Great to see youboth.
Gregory A. Williams (53:27):
Okay, thank you very much.
Matt Renner (53:29):
Thank you
Thanks for joining us for another episode
of climate money watchdog wherewe investigate and report on how
federal dollars are being spenton mitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan,
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please
(00:31):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and to consider making adonation. My name is Greg
Williams, and I learned toinvestigate and report on waste,
fraud and abuse in federalspending. While working at the
project on government oversight,or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned
to do independent research, aswell as to work with
(00:51):
confidential informants orwhistleblowers to uncover things
like overpriced spare parts,like the infamous $435 hammers,
and expensive military weaponssystems that didn't work as
advertised. I was taught by myco host Dino racer, who founded
Pogo in 1981, and foundedclimate money watchdog with me
(01:12):
in 2022. Dena has spent 40 yearsinvestigating and sometimes
recovering millions of dollarswasted by the Defense Department
and other branches ofgovernment. She's done this at
Pogo as an independentjournalist, as an author and as
a professional investigator.
Our guest tonight is MattRenner, that serves as vice
(01:34):
president of Senecaenvironmental a an organization
owned and controlled by theSeneca Nation and works on earth
healing solutions. Book focusedon helping commercial customers
achieve ambitious climate goals,while supporting the long term
(01:55):
well being of the Seneca Nation,and other indigenous people. His
work focuses on partnershipdevelopment and customer
acquisition to createunprecedented collaboration and
profitably accelerate climateaction. Matt has worked as a
nonprofit executive in cleanenergy, climate policy and
journalism for over a decade,focusing on the near term social
(02:18):
and economic impacts of climatechange. He was the head of
climate mobilization, and nowserves on the board of
directors. He began his careeras an investigative reporter,
and later became the ExecutiveDirector of the World Business
Academy, to focus on thetransition to a climate
constrained economic paradigm.
Matt has a BA degree inPolitical Science and Government
(02:39):
from the University ofCalifornia at Berkeley. Welcome.
Thanks for having me. Great.
Dina Rasor (02:49):
Yeah, I just like to say, say this Dina Rasor, I'd
like to say a few words aboutMatt and the mountain came to
interview me one day on militarystuff and ended up recruiting me
to write a column for the onlinemagazine truth out, and we
worked together for five yearson that that was fun working
(03:09):
there. And but then I startedgetting and I called up Matt and
said, what needs to be done? Youknow, I'm looking for a new
project. And he said, theclimate money has to be watched.
There's nobody doing it. And youknow, like, the Pentagon. Yeah,
there's lots of people watching,but the climate money and and
large amount of money that'scoming in, it needs to have
(03:32):
oversight. So that's when Istarted thinking about climate
money watchdog. So Matt is thespark and idea for doing a book.
And now finally got him as aguest, which I'm really pleased.
So,
Matt Renner (03:47):
Dina, thanks for having me. And I just want to
say like, Greg, I learned somuch from your work, and pogos
work, and then your long tenurein in journalism, and it's been
great working with you. So I'mglad to be here.
Dina Rasor (04:00):
Yeah, I'm glad we're working on the same ideas now.
Okay, well, my first questionis, you know, this is a unique
thing. In fact, I when I wasdoing my research to find out
that you guys got on the Timemagazine 100 Climate list, which
is quite an honor, because youhave such an interesting model
(04:23):
of what you're doing. So let'sstart out with that is explain
how the Seneca environmental isset up and its main goals.
Matt Renner (04:32):
Sure, yeah. Thank you. I'm Seneca environmental
synthesis. And the summary isessentially we are a tribally
owned renewable energydevelopment company. We have
aspirations of working in othersectors as well, including earth
healing solutions. Like naturalreforestation, carbon
(04:54):
sequestration through means thatare hard and not just offsets.
We plan on doing renew Lowenergy work for the long term
benefit of good news are acareer owned by I was new to the
concept of tribal youngbusiness. It turns out that
native governments, tribes,nations are the only form of
(05:17):
government in the United Statesthat can own and operate a for
profit business. That was newsto me, even coming out of the
space that you described in mybio as a thinker about the next
paradigm of business. The reasonthat was so appealing and the
reason I made the jump from thenonprofit sector to this kind of
hybrid for profit, but with thereal clear social benefit
(05:37):
company, is because I see thisas a structure that could really
work for bringing together someof the incentives and corporate
ethos of the for profit economy.
But combining that with socialmission and doing climate
action, that is just as a resultof it being housed inside of
native communities. So Senecaenvironmental came from this
(06:02):
idea that the Seneca Nation isworking to diversify, diversify
their economic activities. Rightnow they have casinos, gas
stations, and engage in federalcontracting work to serve
contracts with the federalgovernment. But they wanted to
diversify beyond that, becauseof the opportunities to use this
(06:24):
special status as a tribal youngcompany to do basic basically as
a competitive advantage whendealing with corporates who have
ESG goals, for example. So wegot recognized by the 100
climate list, the time 100Climate list is the first time
(06:45):
they've done a climate listbefore and our Board Chairman
Jordan Garrow made the list onour behalf for the idea of
creating a tribally ownedrenewable energy development
company, one of the first of itskind, especially with a mission
to support other nativecommunities in doing what the
Seneca Nation has done anddeveloping renewable energy
(07:07):
assets on their lands to supporttheir people, either financially
or through energy security andindependence. And so our work to
bring that off territory toother communities and other
native communities, wasrecognized as a very impactful
approach to climate action. Thisis a little long winded, but I
(07:31):
just want to set the contexthere. Native communities have
not benefited from renewableenergy. Before this, too much
extent, there's been a lot ofgood work going on at Department
of Energy through the Office ofIndian energy to try and get
projects built and scoped. Butthere's a lot of limitations.
And the biggest one was that theinvestment tax credit, it's, you
(07:54):
know, 30% or more for renewableenergy projects was not
available to Native communitiesbefore the inflation Reduction
Act passed, that changed. Andnow all of a sudden, native
communities and their theirenterprises are in the game on
renewables.
Gregory A. Williams (08:16):
Okay, good, inspiring news. But my
impression is that the mainlever that that Native
organizations have had to pullup to this point is around land
and mineral rights. And that'ssort of a negative leverage, it
stops things but isn'tnecessarily so good at starting
or promoting things. This seemslike fundamental change.
Matt Renner (08:38):
Yeah, I mean, there have been deals that have been
done to make money for Nativecommunities for renewable energy
through land leases, but that'sgenerally not very profitable.
And it tends to create conflict,potentially, with the lease or,
or the side of the LISI of thosedeals because they're working on
native lands. And if theyaren't, taking care of the land,
(09:01):
that those projects can bedirectly in opposition with the
values of the community, not tomention the story of oil and gas
exploitation that we heard innative lands, especially
highlighted by that new movie,the killers of the flower moon,
about the Osage and the effortsto take their mineral wealth.
Yeah, so this, this is a changethere in their stills, a lot of
(09:22):
potential conflict over land useor you know, and making sure
that these projects are doneappropriately, is one of our
main values when we're workingwith other native communities,
and working anywhere else,right, the value of the land is
crucial. I do want to say up tophere that I'm not a member of
(09:43):
the Seneca Nation. I'm anemployee of their company. But
we do work with a number ofpeople who are members of Seneca
Nation, and our board isentirely made up of Seneca as
for our parent company, so weare pretty when we are out there
doing this business, we feel asense of responsibility to
(10:03):
uphold the values of the SenecaNation and act as you know, a
very aligned arm of the nationitself. So we are very
thoughtful about doingdevelopment projects, and
working with private developersand these deals as well to make
sure that they're upholdingthose values.
Dina Rasor (10:26):
Okay, good. Well, um, so before they did, you guys
did sort of a broad range thing.
And so you're specifically nowthe Seneca Nation has set up
this specific section to investin clean energy, and you started
sort of started in solar, butyou spread out. So talk about
that, and tell us all thedifferent areas that you tried
(10:46):
to do clean energy and versuscarbon capture and, and blue
hydrogen and all those otherthings sound like clean energy,
but really aren't?
Matt Renner (10:57):
Yeah, we're pretty focused on solar batteries,
potentially electric vehiclecharging infrastructure,
potentially wind for the right.
Use cases, as you know, thenumber one charge of our company
as a traveling on companies tomake money for the Seneca
Nation. So whatever we do needsto be profitable. And it needs
to have impact for the long terminvestment goals of the Seneca
(11:21):
Nation. So we have a developmentarm that looks at the site
assessments for corporates, andhelp suggest what they might
develop on their facilities,which is a great way to work
with us because those corporatesget to spend their climate
dollars in a way that's promotesjustice directly by funding, a
(11:42):
company that's owned andoperated for the benefit of the
second nation. So they get apoint on their ESG scores in the
environmental category, as wellas one in the social category,
just by signing a contract withus. And then we work with other
native communities to assesstheir opportunities to build
renewable energy projects atscale, and help backstop the
(12:04):
will help develop the financethe capital stack, for the
development of projects and theownership of projects. That also
brings us into contact with thedepartment of energy that has
specific loan programs that havebeen boosted by the inflation
Reduction Act to add billions ofdollars to these programs,
(12:25):
specifically to lend to tribesand communities. So that's,
that's the great thing about,you know, our approach is that
we're trying to make use of thisIRA money that was put out there
in a way that, you know, thecrafters of the legislation
intended. And what I'll tell youis that it's pretty slow going.
(12:46):
Doe has not deployed any ofthose dollars yet, even though
they have somewhere between fourand $20 billion, specifically
for loaning to Nativecommunities to own assets. But
we are in the process with themworking our way through and hope
to be one of the first tribes tocome out of that program with a
with a loan for acquiringassets.
Dina Rasor (13:11):
Hey, well give us an example of maybe walk us through
the sort of soup to nuts thingwe have of how you how you
start. So say a company comes toyou and says, We want to build
help build solar, or you find anarea or a nation that wants to
build solar? How does it whatare the steps? And do you guys
(13:35):
act as a program managers? Or doyou just act as consultants? Or
how do you how's thatstructured?
Matt Renner (13:42):
Yeah, great question. We work at as either
consultants or projectdevelopers, and then eventually
investors on projects. So ifit's a corporate, we tend to go
to them instead of them comingto us, although I'm happy to
take any phone calls that fromcorporates that are looking to
climate action. And our pitch tothem is what I just said, which
is you should work with atribally owned company to make
(14:04):
your renewable energy projectseven more effective, and more
impactful, and that's more justand they're very receptive.
There's a lot of the ethos inthe sustainability community
among companies that are focusedon climate action also includes
spending money to promote racialjustice with their vendors, you
(14:24):
know, being minority owned andoperated and controlled. So that
in that case, we do a siteassessment, they say, we say,
well, where are your facilitiesgive us a list. We look at the
price of power that they'repaying right now. And where they
are in the, you know, latitudelongitude to try and figure out
how the solar resources and thenwe can actually look at their
(14:46):
rooftops from our desktop toolsand the area around them to see
how much solar that you couldcite on their facilities. This
is really becoming a big deal inthe Midwest in a new way than it
was you know, California and NewYork. Massachusetts, parts of
the country have already havesignificant solar program, it's
really taking off elsewhere inTexas, obviously, it's really
(15:09):
taking off elsewhere. Now, asthe economics of solar have
gotten better, and the price ofpower hasn't gone down anywhere,
so we're looking a lot in theMidwest rooftops on facilities
there. So we do that siteanalysis, and come up with a
financial estimate of whetherthese are gonna say, solar
panels are gonna save money ornot for the company, and how
(15:31):
much we can fit on their site.
Because usually, for theseindustrial customers that we're
working with, they can't covertheir whole energy use from
rooftop solar. If they reallywant to, we can scope other
opportunities for them to doenergy production on site, which
could be micro wind, or windturbines. In some places. It
could also be fuel cells thatinitially work from natural gas,
(15:53):
but could be converted to cleanhydrogen, if and when that ever
becomes a thing. And then wepresent it to them and say,
look, here's what we think youcan save based on our analysis.
If you would like us to buildthis for you all, we need to
lose you lease your rooftop andany adjacent land for $1. And we
(16:16):
will build and then own andoperate those assets for you,
and sell the power to you at alower rate than you're currently
paying. That way, they don'thave to pay any upfront money to
get started saving money ontheir power bills. And we get to
own and operate an asset ontheir facility. So it comes out
of their op x instead of theircapex. The that's the how we
(16:39):
work with the corporates, I canalso go into how we work with
Native communities. If you ifyou want to or we can pause
there.
Dina Rasor (16:49):
No, we like I'd like to hear that too. And yeah,
Matt Renner (16:54):
yeah. And then maybe better decided it's often
much more in a consulting roleat first, where are we come in,
you know, our goal is really tobe on the side of the Native
community and help them assesstheir options. As opposed to
coming in and saying, Hey, thisis a great place for solar, at
least is your land. And thenwe'll pay you a fee. And then
(17:19):
basically use that land for 30years, and you don't have to be
involved in the deal. So we dothat through consulting with
them doing an analysis, lookingat options, and then working
with them to understand and whattheir what they'd really like to
do to make money. Yeah, goahead, Greg. Sorry. Yeah,
Gregory A. Williams (17:40):
just interested in any expression,
you may have have the scale ofyour success. So far, you know,
numbers of projects, numbers ofkilowatts, capacity,
whatever might be meaningful toyou?
Matt Renner (17:54):
Yeah, great question. I wish I had a better
story to tell you about that atthe moment. But we are the
inflation Reduction Act put thisindustry on the map and into
play in terms of nativeownership of renewable energy
assets before that it was notviable, because native
communities couldn't make use ofthe investment tax credit. So
(18:14):
we're about two years old. Wehave a pipeline of projects that
we are have in development. Butthe projects that we've actually
built are the second nation hasbuilt renewable energy assets on
their lands. But our companyhasn't was not involved in
those. So there's a communitysolar project in New York, on
(18:38):
the territories of the SenecaNation, and a community wind
project that are both around amegawatt and a half. And those
assets, produce renewableenergy, send it back into the
utilities that are the electricproviders for the territories.
And then the second nationreceives money for essentially
(19:00):
net metering on those assets.
Then they pass on those savingsto their residents. So residents
save about $25 a month from theownership of those assets. This
is a model that we use. When wetalk about renewable energy
options with other nativecommunities.
Dina Rasor (19:15):
You talked about in the Midwest, you're now doing
more. And I one thing I youknow, having driven through the
Great Plains and whatever nowit's amazing how many windmills
there are in this huge amount ofwind power there. Are any of the
Seneca Nation lands in an areathat has a wind if not, what
(19:37):
about other Indian nations?
Matt Renner (19:41):
Yeah, so Seneca Nation is located in Western New
York, about 45 minutes southwestof Buffalo. And the wind
resource is not terrible. Sothere is a wind turbine on
territory that they built andown and operate and it turns
right along and there may beroom for more But their
territories are pretty small.
And so this is opportunity forsome of the plains, tribes and
(20:05):
communities that have massivereservations compared to the
Seneca Nation. There's somereally good wind resources in
Montana. And in some of theplaces that are formerly coal
communities are currently calledcommunities to do some
replacement. There's specialadders in the inflation
Reduction Act for communitiesthat are called energy
(20:28):
communities, they get additionalbonuses to the investment tax
credit subsidy. So we're lookingat those and helping folks
partner on those, the bigchallenge out there is access to
the transmission grid. Sotransmission, grid, people think
about it, as you know, the wiresthat come to your house, the
(20:48):
wires that come to your house,or the distribution grid, the
transmission grid is the wiresthat you see on metal poles that
go long distances, often alongthe highway. And that moves at a
much higher voltage, they'remuch more expensive, and people
basically don't build themunless there's a customer at the
other end. So these reservationsthat are often very far out in
remote areas, don't necessarilyhave access to that high voltage
(21:13):
transmission system. And that'sbeen a very limiting factor for
some of the massive windprojects that are teed up and
ready to go once thetransmission grid or if ever
reaches them.
Gregory A. Williams (21:25):
So when you talk about the community
implementations community solarcommunity wind, does that
specifically mean they hook intothe the the local distribution
grid as opposed to thetransmission grid?
Matt Renner (21:41):
Yes, that is, like a term community, solar
community wind is a littleloose. And it's kind of a state
by state definition, becausethat's where the regulations are
often set, or a utility, bututility definition. But that's a
good rule of thumb is that thoseprojects generally hook into the
distribution grid, as opposed tothe transmission grid, they tend
(22:01):
to be smaller. So they can dothat. You know, you think about
the size being zero, you know,one to 10 megawatts. And you
think about that being about100,000 square feet per megawatt
on a rooftop, or about fiveacres on ground mount for per
(22:22):
megawatt. So if you think abouta 10 megawatt project, it's
usually about 50 acres of land,packed with solar panels. And
generally you can, you canconnect those to the
distribution grid, and that kindof serves the local area, it
does cause some challenges forthe actual operators of the
grid. If you get any bigger thanthat.
Gregory A. Williams (22:43):
You mitigate any of those challenges
with batteries, you can meter,the amount of power that's going
into the grid.
Matt Renner (22:51):
Exactly, yeah, additional storage really helps.
The challenges, I think, are alittle bit overblown. The grid
is the world's largest machine,and it's designed for it was
designed for one way power flowsfrom the power to your home or
business, right. And what we'redoing is we're kind of hacking
it and saying, Well, let'sproduce energy at the end of the
(23:14):
grid and send it back the otherdirection, which it wasn't
designed for, but it is capableof doing and batteries are a
great piece of the puzzle,dropping them in at places where
there's congestion to soak upexcess energy when there is
excess. And to send it out,really maximize the existing
(23:34):
infrastructure without having toreplace it.
Dina Rasor (23:37):
I want to every time we ever talk about increasing
electricity and the grid andeverything, but the thing that I
see, and I can see that it'saffecting the same, the the
regulations now is alsoaffecting the rest of the
country. And that is there justisn't enough of the big, big
(24:02):
electric carrier wires around.
And so it's and it's, it's whento build them, there's all these
little fiefdoms and, andutilities and everybody who has
been for years kind of runningtheir own game and, and
whatever. So there's always ittakes a long time to build
because there's just all thisinternal, you know, fighting
(24:24):
between governments and, andquasi nonprofit electric, you
know, power companies and allthis kind of stuff. And then I
heard is going to be a, youknow, a real big problem
eventually. And I was justwondering if you see that the
same with your work is thatyou're going to be slowed up on
(24:48):
solar and wind if you can't totransport it.
Matt Renner (24:53):
Yeah, interconnection challenges are a
big delay and setback forprojects and it really limit
That's where you're able toactually build. There's a number
of there's, there's a lot ofissues there that to discuss, I
mean, one of them is, the rightsof way themselves that already
exists could be maximized byadding additional lines or re
conducting, I think it's calledwhere you actually take the old
(25:15):
lines out and put better ones inand free up a lot of space. And
there's also an issue of justdata and ownership and control
here, like who actually knowswhat's happening on the grid,
and at what level and thetransmission system, you know, a
lot of that information in someplaces is proprietary, or people
don't even have it. So that'smore of the rural areas, outside
(25:37):
of the Independent SystemOperator areas. But yeah, the
grid itself is a real challenge.
And that's why there's a lot ofwork to build renewable energy
behind the meter for selfconsumption only, so that you
don't have to actually send itback to the grid. A lot of
companies are looking at thatnow. Because they can't get
power to their new facilitiesthat they want to build for all
this new manufacturingfacilities that are opening up.
(25:58):
So they're looking at doing onsite generation with renewables
storage with batteries, on sitegeneration with natural gas, in
some cases, in order to actuallyget the energy they need just to
open their facility. So this isa huge challenge. And something
that, you know, is not onlylimited to, to the Native
American lands, what I would sayspecifically about that issue,
(26:21):
though, is that a lot of thesereservations are seen as targets
for renewable energydevelopment, but also for new
rights of way are larger rightsof way for transmission systems.
And that can create a lot ofconflict, in part because those
are usually private, privatelyowned. So one thing that we're
big advocates of is if you'retrying to do a transmission
(26:44):
project, figure out ways to dohave the community where it's
located actually own it. Thatway, they have real buy in and
with the inflation Reduction Actand the loan programs that are
available. Native communitiescan probably invest in projects
that they weren't able tobefore, and that, you know, 10s
to hundreds of million dollarrange
Dina Rasor (27:07):
as well, I think it also traditionally among the the
tribes and nations across thecountry. lectricity was already
scarce. There was not, you know,I don't know if anyone's ever
driven through, driven throughreservations, especially in the
West with those big long whiteegg things. And you go through
(27:30):
there, and there is a minimalamount of electricity
capability. Because it's becausebecause I think because of the
discrimination all those yearsand money that maybe that
helped, you know, when theyopened some casinos, but it's
still not going to be the samekind. There's, I still feel like
there's, from what I've justanecdotally seen it look like
(27:53):
they're all there, they werealready behind the eight ball
before this clean energy evenstarted on that on an electrical
ability. Yeah,
Matt Renner (28:02):
it's really a human rights issue, frankly, in a lot
of places, you know, NavajoNation has, like, it's 25,000
homes. Without electricity,they're just not connected to
any ground. And communities,especially the rural ones are
much are very underserved interms of energy system. You
know, it's a historical legacyof why these reservations were
(28:24):
placed where they are, in partisn't the is the land. Yeah,
yeah. And so they're very remainunderserved. There's efforts to
try and fix that and a lot ofmoney trying to flow to that.
The Navajo Nation is exploringways to put, you know, little
nano grids, essentially, a smallbattery in a rooftop solar
(28:45):
system that can power thesehouses at much less expense than
their current diesel generatorsthat they use and much cleaner.
So there are efforts trying toaddress that. But you know,
globally, indigenous people areunderserved by electricity, and
all that comes along with it.
And it's a big issue. Also,these lines just don't get
serviced. You know, you talk tofolks in New Mexico, and they
(29:08):
have blackouts constantly ontribal lands. Interestingly, I
got a kick out of this, there'sa real business case to be made
by some of the casinos who haveissues with power, because you
know, their energy in when itturns off, for long enough, all
those machines, the slotmachines have to go and be
(29:30):
reset.
Dina Rasor (29:31):
And not mechanical, they're not mechanical anymore.
They're all
Matt Renner (29:35):
andit blows out there. They're microprocessors
and can actually destroy themachines costume and $25,000 or
something per machine. So it's areal energy access is a real
issue just for the whole economyon some of these places.
Dina Rasor (29:49):
Okay, what what's what's holding up the federal
government in the loans? What isit you know what, that you would
think that they'd want to pushthose out the door right away?
And, you know, I know there's alot of talk about economic
justice. And, and all that. AndI'm finding from talking to some
advocates in New Mexico andArizona and Texas, that there
(30:10):
isn't been a lot the federalgovernment, the federal
government speaks a good game inWashington, DC. But what I've
heard from activists, includingsome native activists that there
is a there's the local federalinfrastructure, especially if
(30:30):
you're going to try to replace acoal plant or replace, you know,
a fossil fuel industry. They,those bureaucrats are, are been
working with the fossil fuelpeople for years and stuff like
that. And so they're reluctantto, you know, you may have
people pounding in Washington,yeah, we're gonna get this out,
we're gonna have economicjustice, we're gonna help you,
(30:51):
we're gonna give out the loans.
But then I've had them when theygo to try to talk to the local
Feds and local state and federalpeople. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do
this great program. But thenwhen they try to find out who's
who's Who is it, that's gettingthe money? Where are they coming
in? Where's the, you know,where's the loans going to? And
what's his company's background?
(31:14):
A lot of times they're told, butlocal federal people that oh,
that's proprietary, we can'ttell you. Of course, they can
tell you. This is not like doingweapons, you know, this was
prep, they're starting to usethe proprietary neti thing that.
So have you run into that a bitof that being one of the things
(31:35):
that slowed it down? Or is itjust plain old, good old
fashioned bureaucracy?
Matt Renner (31:41):
Great question. I can only really speak to the
tribal and program office at theDepartment of Energy. And what
I'd say is that there's peoplethere that are trying really
hard to move that money, andthey're doing everything they
can to find ways to getborrowers into the program. And
(32:01):
to get projects built with thosedollars. I think their
intentions are really good atDOD. I think the challenge is
that the program was neverreally set up to move quickly.
And there's a lot of diligenceto be done on these projects,
including the NEPA, the NationalEnvironmental Protection Act
studies that are required foranything the federal government
funds. So one of the challengesthat that NEPA stuff, the
(32:26):
requirement pushes the abilityof the dollars to get up or back
nine months to a year. So youcan get your project teed up and
apply and then they have to do astudy and then you get the money
a year later. If you're actuallyin the commercial markets,
trying to buy a competitiveproject, with that money, that
year is unacceptable to thepeople selling the project,
(32:46):
they're not gonna give you thebid, have you win the bid, and
then wait a year to get paid. Sothat's one challenge that we're
working to help overcome byspeeding that process up a bit.
Other ones are just that there'sthere's a general lack of
capacity in the industry fornative owned renewable energy,
because it's only two years old.
There's a lot of really smartpeople at in these native
(33:08):
communities in these governmentswho are working really hard. But
there's just not that many ofthem in terms of how big these
projects are, and can be,there's a real lack of
professional support. So there'sa number of groups, including a
company called or nonprofitcalled the Alliance for tribal
clean energy, that are workingin backstops in that capacity.
(33:29):
That's also one of the thingsthat we intend to do and have
done as consultants is to fillin gaps with other native
communities, to bring our teamto help them get their projects
done. And then lastly, it's it'sa matter of, do we need to see
that these projects areprofitable, and that the
(33:49):
borrower is going to be able topay back the loan, they have a
low interest rate. So thathelps. But it's, you have to do
kind of the same steps you woulddo from a bank for each one of
these projects, and it takestime and the projects, it costs
money. So the projects have tohave upfront capital and
development capital to put in tothe process and put at risk in
(34:11):
order to get the pre developmentand development work done. To
make them eligible for the loan.
And so that's a that's a prettyrisky proposition. And something
that not all communities areready to do, especially at
scale.
Gregory A. Williams (34:30):
So to what extent are you set up to clear
or overcome those hurdles?
Matt Renner (34:35):
Yeah, I mean, our approach, we haven't done it
yet. So I think we are and we'revery close. But our approach is,
first of all, we're trying toacquire existing assets as
opposed to building new ones forour first time through the loan
program office. That way theprojects have an established
track record and how much valuethey're creating, how much
(34:55):
they're worth. They also don'tneed new environmental studies
because they're We're notactually building any new
assets, not disturbing anyground, they're already
operating. So that's, that's ourtactic on the first one, and
then we're also working closelywith the DOD, to help them get
to know us so that they don'thave to reevaluate us as a
(35:17):
company. And as a qualifiedborrower. Every time we bring
them a new project, our theoryis that we get one in and get it
done. And that will help thesecond one get done faster,
which we think is true based onour conversations with them.
Lastly, you know, we have areally great team that we've put
together. So the Seneca Nationhas a really professional
(35:38):
corporate structure where theyessentially have empowered
Seneca holdings to go and dobusiness and these different
fronts. And we've invested a tonof money in people and
expertise, to be able to try andbring kind of the top of the
line professionals in theindustry to bear on this on this
issue. So it's a gamble. Andwe're definitely spending more
(36:01):
than we're making right now.
Trying to set this up. We hopethat that will pay off when we
get a few projects completed anda few investments completed.
Dina Rasor (36:12):
So where where do you Where would you like to see
yourself in two years and fiveyears and 10 years, I know it's
hard to get an idea because ofcourse, a lot of it has to do
with its elected president. Andwhether this money is not cut
eventually cut off. I can seethat that program that help to
(36:34):
help the nation's would besomething that they might want
to get the AX really quickly ifthe if unsympathetic people in
there got through. So where,where but giving the idea that
maybe there there is thatthere's pressure to do this now
and and, you know, positivefeelings about having the the
(36:58):
Native American nations, we havebig participation and a lot of
money been put into it? Where doyou where do you see this going
in two years and five years or10 years? That kind of thing?
What What kind of goals wouldyou have?
Matt Renner (37:15):
Yeah, I think that the work with the corporate
sector is really scalable, Ithink that they're going to
continue to do on siterenewables and have a demand for
renewable energy that's justgoing to grow. A lot of these
major companies have reallyambitious climate goals, but
they don't have a viablestrategy for reaching them. So I
think they looked at onsiterenewables, you know, 10 years
(37:35):
ago. And I think it's time totake another look, because the
economics have changed. And Ithink you'd be a great partner
for anyone who's looking to do aproject that really does weave
in their goals around renewableenergy, along with any goals
around climate and racialjustice. So that's where we're
focused, I'd like to see usworking with three fortune 500
companies to do assessments ontheir facilities, we've got two
(37:57):
in the pipeline. So we need onemore if anyone out there is
listening. And then a lot ofmedium sized businesses to do
Evie charging and on siterenewables. On the larger
project size. I don't know if wehave the capital to pull this
off. But I'd like to see us puttogether a billion dollars in
investment capital to bedeployed in the next 10 years or
(38:19):
less, in order to build a realportfolio of assets that are
fully owned and operated byNative communities, I think
that'd be a really big win. Andwe'd really help exercise a lot
of that DOD money. Regardless ofthe political risk, I think this
is still viable, as long as theydon't change the tax credit to
exclude native communities likeit used to be.
Gregory A. Williams (38:41):
It sounds like you've got strategies to
overcome some of the moreimportant obstacles by locally
generated power consumed onsite, you don't have to worry
about the transmission gridaccess. By working with private
companies, you're gettingcapital from them, instead of
getting it from time consumingloans with the from the federal
(39:02):
government. And in the meantime,you have these tax credits, to
distinguish yourself from otherdevelopment organizations that
these companies might otherwiseturn to. Is that a reasonable
summary? And are there otheradvantages you have?
Matt Renner (39:17):
Yeah, I think that the, the thing that we have
access to, if we can make use ofthe loan program at DOE is we
have a competitive cost ofcapital. So in this current high
and higher cost of moneyenvironment, you know, the Fed
interest rates a lot higher thanit was a few years ago, we
actually have an advantage to beable to borrow almost at that
(39:38):
Fed rate. And that makes ourbids for acquiring projects very
competitive, even with ourlimited size and experience. So
that's a key advantage thatwe're hoping to leverage. The
other thing that we think thatwe can bring to bear here is
being really early and first. Soonce we get a couple of projects
(39:59):
on data lands completed thathave the structures that will be
public in terms of theirstructures that really benefit
native communities not justdoing a land lease and the more
exploitative model, we thinkthat that's going to scale. And
you know, in Indian country asits, as it's called, it's you
get a reputation really fast,either good or bad. And if we
(40:19):
can get a good reputation andshow that these projects are
working for Native communities,we think that we can scale in
that direction pretty quickly,the transmission issue is going
to always be there. And theremay be some ways around it. I
know you all follow the hydrogenconversation a lot. Well, this
is an opportunity to do greenhydrogen with new build
renewables. And in doing so,circumvent the transmission
(40:43):
issue, because if you can makehydrogen on site, co located
with new renewable energydevelopment, you can not have to
worry about that transmissionproblem. There's some real
challenges to that system, interms of finding instability and
making sure you're doingbusiness with a company that's
not going to go out of business,and leave you with no one to buy
(41:03):
your renewable energy thatyou've that you're producing.
But I think those can beovercome to working with the
right companies.
Dina Rasor (41:11):
Yeah, is there anybody that's looking or any of
your projects looking at?
Because of course, this is thedarling of a lot of industries
right now is LED is looking atthe carbon capture. thing to try
to say, you know, what's left?
(41:32):
Yeah,
Matt Renner (41:33):
my thinking on carbon capture is in carbon
credits in general is that ifyou can find ways to really
sequester carbon and a hard formand a permanent form, I'm
interested in talking about it.
So my, the, I've just had acouple calls today on biochar as
an option, where you actuallytaking wood waste and turning it
into a more permanent biocharthat you can bury in the ground,
(41:55):
or use as a as a component ofthe well remediation in oil and
gas wells. So that you canactually put biochar in those
wells that helped clean up theemissions from them, and serve
as a plug along with concrete orcement. And so there's some
carbon capture stuff to be done.
(42:18):
That could be good. I'm not abit I'm not really into the
offsets. Those are too much of asmoke and mirrors for me. But
there are other there's anothergreat one that do you think
you'd like? called Enhanced rockweatherization? Have you heard
of this one? No. Okay, so thisis, this is a little complex,
but I love it. It's it'sessentially taking baths, salt
(42:41):
rock, grinding it up andspreading it on agricultural
fields. The farmers love it,because it actually is a
nutrient provider. And so it canbe an alternative fertilizer.
And then when it rains, thatrainwater mixes with the basalt
and captures carbon in theprocess, it's a quest, or is it
in a hard form, eventually goingout through rivers into the
(43:03):
ocean, in a benign form. Soenhanced rock weatherization is
a cool one that I'm reallyexcited about as a real, solid
carbon capture mechanism. Youknow, the tax credit and all
that is interesting andimportant. I'm not an expert on
it at all. But I am interestedin seeing if there's ways we can
leverage that to.
Dina Rasor (43:23):
Yeah, there's a lot of people think of carbon
capture, they think about, oh,we capture it in this most
smokestack, you know, we, wecapture the carbon in the mismo
sack, so we can continue to donatural gas and coal, whatever.
And then, and there's been somequestionable on how they report
it, and whether they really arecapturing that much. But then
(43:45):
the other thing is to take thatco2 and pressurize it and put it
in pipelines. They're talking.
Princeton put out a map, apipeline map, that was the first
time I looked at it, I said,that isn't gonna work, because
it's more pipelines than we haveoil pipelines in the United
States. And you know, howpopular pipelines are now. And
of course, this is highlypressurized any water Yes, in
(44:08):
it, they blow up. And so thewhole idea of carbon capture, I
think, has to be sort of not,not damp out, burning it
capturing the carbon, putting itthrough, putting it through
pipelines and then put it backin the ground. It's the cost of
that is prohibitive, and withoutvery generous tax credits from
(44:29):
the IRA wouldn't be possible. Sothat's a that's part of capital
carbon capture. Most peoplethink they don't think of the
more creative stuff.
Matt Renner (44:41):
Yeah, I agree that that system is definitely
problematic. I mean, number onereason being that we need to
take carbon out of theatmosphere as opposed to
becoming carbon neutral, right,we actually have to reverse the
amount of carbon that's in theatmosphere. So we need to get to
zero new emissions. And then weactually need Pull out
historical emissions if we'regonna have a chance at surviving
(45:03):
the climate emergency. So if youjust get to neutral by capturing
all the carbon that comes out ofburning natural gas, and then
you have to go sequester itsomewhere, in a sense, you're
taking away an opportunity topull carbon out of the
atmosphere and sequester thatinstead. So I think it's not a
great policy. Yeah.
Dina Rasor (45:19):
And the problem is, too, it's also so expensive. And
it takes so much energy andcarbon based energy to do all
this stuff that you end upnegating, and everything that
you've all, you know, oh, wesaved all this stuff. But yeah,
it's what you call the net? Whatdo you have to do for the,
what's the net amount, you'regoing to do? Not the amount that
(45:39):
you get? The gross you're goingto get out of it. But they're
really talking about now youhave to, you have to count the
manufacturing and the work andthe energy of everything you do
from that plant from that planon to see if it's correct,
rather than just picking out thegood news of some of the carbon
(46:00):
that you may have saved?
Matt Renner (46:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, I could see asystem in 20 years, 30 years
where we have 10% of our energy,that's still being electricity
that's still being provided bynatural gas with carbon capture,
I don't think that's out of therealm of possibility. Because
there's going to be someflexibility, potentially, that
might be the most efficient wayto do it. But that should be
very limited amount, itshouldn't be a significant
(46:24):
portion beyond that kind offlexible. Generation. One for me
is where there's so much carbonto be dealt with that any
emissions should be avoided asmuch as possible. And we should
look for gas for solar and windto do as much of that as
(46:46):
possible until we actually needto have some flexible fossil
that.
Dina Rasor (46:52):
Yeah, I say this almost every podcast, but it's
so good. BILL MCKIBBEN from 350.
Org, he did an article onlending magazine, and I really
someday gonna write him writehim up. He was one of our first
guests write him up and say, canI make this into a bumper
sticker? Because the headlinefor that was, the Earth is on
fire, stop burning things. Andso when people get on, and they
(47:14):
get all confused about capcarbon capture, and this and
maybe we can do that, and maybewe can make start with blue
hydrogen and make it greenlater. And you know, by using
natural gas, and blah, blah,blah. And I always say to
myself, when I look at a projectis, are you burning anything?
You're burning something, you'vegot to do something about the
(47:37):
carbon. And, you know, it's itclarifies it, because there are
a lot of people out there withall kinds of credits. And this
isn't just the warm, fuzzyenvironmentalists, these are
there are people with those,those carbon credits and things
like that, that they're in theIRA, which is very lucrative
(47:58):
that they are looking there, youknow, the sharks are circling.
And I can see, and I try to tellenvironmentalists, you know, not
everybody is interested in theenvironment. But if there's
money, they will come and dothis stuff. So I, that's what
the new viewers or listenersshould do is that every time
they get confused aboutsomething, and they say, the
(48:20):
Earth is on fire, stop burningthings. And if this is
continuing to burn, this shouldbe the thing that you don't
emphasize the most use toemphasize the stuff we don't
burn.
Matt Renner (48:31):
Yeah, it's a really good rule of thumb. I totally
agree. Okay.
Dina Rasor (48:34):
Well, you have anything else you'd like to add?
Matt Renner (48:37):
You know, I think the bottom line for me is that
the inflation Reduction Act is amassive win on a lot of levels,
if it can be implemented, right,right. And you're taking a look
at how it's being implementedwrong as a key service that you
all are doing, and I reallyappreciate it. And I want to be
able to go out and tell thestories of where it's providing
benefit, and how we can lift itup in this critical election
(49:02):
year. I personally, am concernedabout not the climate
legislation itself, just notgetting the credit it deserves
for the impact it can have oncreating a green and secure
future. It's not enough. And mytime in the climate movement
really led me to believe that weneed about 10x, what was done
(49:24):
under the inflation ReductionAct to move at the speed we need
to and I think there's a muchbigger role for the federal
government. But it's a goodstart. That has really catalyzed
a lot of thinking and a lot ofclarity for the industry. And
I'm not a huge fan ofprivatizing all this work. I
think there's a much better wayto do it, but it is the card
we've been dealt and it's it'swhat we're ready to play. And so
(49:46):
I think it's an all hands ondeck effort to make sure that
money is being lost, but also toaccelerate the deployment of
those funds along pathways thatwe know are good. So anyone
who's listening who's workingHatfield Thank you. And anyone
who wants more information aboutSeneca environmental can check
us out at Seneca environmental,calm, and just drop me a note on
(50:09):
there if you want to answer anyquestions.
Gregory A. Williams (50:13):
Are there any specific pieces of advice
you'd have for for other nativecommunities to kind of replicate
what you've done or takeadvantage of what you've done?
Matt Renner (50:24):
Yeah, the native communities that I'm in touch
with have been doing a lot ofgreat thinking and work on their
own on these fronts. It'susually a capacity issue. This
is renewable energy developmentis not the highest of their
needs. In some of these morerural communities, and more
economically disadvantagedcommunities, water and housing
(50:45):
are primary, especially in theWest, housing everywhere, as we
know. So what we can do is comein as a third party with our own
ability to do assessments andsupport an investigation into
renewable energy options forNative communities. And our
commitment is really to be ontheir side through that process.
(51:06):
And we usually try to get paidthrough grants to do that
consulting work. And then wehave the ability to bring
flexibility and capital to theirprojects and partner with them.
I don't know if I got to thisnuance, but taxpaying entities
and non taxpaying entities can'tco own projects, or else that
will mess up the investment taxcredit. So we are a non
(51:28):
taxpaying entity, which allowsus to partner with other native
communities that are also nontaxpaying entities on their side
of the deal, to be able to do coinvestment and joint ventures
that keep the inflation and theinvestment tax credit intact. So
that's a lot of words to say, weare trying to figure out how to
(51:49):
make these projects really workfor Native communities, and we
have some specific knowledge tosupport their efforts. But
basically, we can also just doreferrals to companies that we
know who share our values and,and want to see good projects
come for Native community. Sowe're very welcome open to being
in touch and giving our advice,anything we can do to support
(52:11):
those efforts.
Gregory A. Williams (52:15):
All right.
Well, this has been it's beenexciting to hear about the work
that you've been doing, and Ihope you'll be back in the
future to tell us about yoursuccess. Especially if you
managed to get one of those DoEloans. Yes.
Dina Rasor (52:31):
Yeah, we'd like you to come back and you know, maybe
six months and say it's gettingbetter, it's getting worse, you
know, that kind of thing.
Because I think that that'ssomething that's educational for
people there's a lot going to behe's out there and it's gonna be
interesting to see how themarket market and the federal
government sorts that out. Soreally appreciate really
(52:52):
appreciate you doing this andany other native groups that
want to come on that you knowof, please give us your name and
number because we we are we wantwe are very interested in having
a lot of a lot of nations comeon and and really do the really,
really see how they're workingout. In fact, I just got
(53:16):
contacted by some other anothertribe, so I will let you know
how that goes.
Matt Renner (53:22):
Fantastic. Yeah, great to be on and keep up the
great work. Great to see youboth.
Gregory A. Williams (53:27):
Okay, thank you very much.
Matt Renner (53:29):
Thank you
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