How The Plastics Industry is Tied to Fossil Fuels – Melissa Valliant - Climate Money Watchdog

Episode Transcript
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Gregory A. Williams (00:09):
came up.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of climate money
watchdog where we investigateand report on federal dollars
and how they're being spent onmitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please

(00:31):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and consider making adonation. My name is Greg
Williams, and I learned toinvestigate and report on waste,
fraud and abuse in federalspending while working at the
project on government oversight,or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned
to do independent research aswell as to work with

(00:53):
confidential informants orwhistleblowers to uncover things
like overpriced spare parts,like the infamous 300 I'm sorry,
$435 hammers, and expensivemilitary weapons systems that
didn't work as advertised. I wastaught by my co host, the inner
racer, who founded Pablo in1981, and founded climate money
watchdog with me in 2022. Dinahas spent 40 years investigating

(01:17):
and sometimes recoveringmillions of dollars wasted by
the Defense Department and otherbranches of government at Pogo,
as an independent journalist, asan author, and as a professional
investigator. Tonight, we'repleased to have as our guest,
Melissa valued director ofcommunications for beyond
plastics, a nonprofitorganization dedicated to ending

(01:39):
plastic pollution. She grew upon the eastern shore of Maryland
and graduated from SyracuseUniversity with a plan to pursue
magazine journalist. Somewherealong the way, she became hooked
on environmental conservation,and discovered a love for
leveraging her communicationsabilities to make the world a
better place. Melissa had herfirst letter to the editor

(02:00):
published in the kids sciencemagazine at the age of 11, and
has since been published in theNew York Times, The Washington
Post, The Wall Street Journal,and USA Today, among others.
Prior to her role at beyondplastics, she managed
communications for Oceana'splastics campaign, and worked
for the National Aquarium inBaltimore. You want to tell us

(02:22):
why we're excited to haveMelissa as our guest.

Dina Rasor (02:28):
And we're very excited. I mean, some people
might not think this is climatechange. But if you go back and
look at our, our goal, we talkabout climate change. But we
also talk about Earth overreach,which is something that I think
is really important, because youdon't want I mean, climate

(02:48):
change is a is crisis, we knowthat. But if we're not paying
attention to the otherenvironmental crises going on,
even if we abate the climatechange situation, which is going
to take years, if we don't dosomething about our pollution,
it's going to have a greateffect on human health and

(03:08):
animal health and food, andwater, and fish and everything
we everything we do. And so I'vebeen, you know, I tried to not
buy plastics, I no longer buylaundry detergent in plastics, I
buy those little micro sheetsand stuff. And like, I feel like

(03:30):
I'm doing something. And Ialways start my plastic always
make sure in the bin, it's gotthe right number. And you do all
that work and you rinse it outbecause if it has got any
residue, they won't recycle it.
So we all very, you know, verybig out here in California to do
this. And lo and behold, I foundout that only 9% of all plastic
is recycled and especially badwith single use plastics so I I

(03:51):
am also I really upset about thegreenwashing where they were
like, the consumers can do this.
They couldn't it's the consumersfault. We need to recycle
ourselves out of this. No, youneed to stop making the crap
that has to be recycled, it isnot getting recycled. And on

(04:14):
plastics and plastics, we needplastics for things. But the
single use plastics seem tosound like one of the worst
things. And I despite thescience that's going on around
here where it's breaking downinto micro and nano particles
which they are finding in 90% ofthe living things in the world.

(04:38):
It's in the deepest trenches ofthe ocean where you see all
those weird fish clear up to,you know, once it breaks into
this micro and nano, it's justin and they it's in women's plus
centers. It's now that I justread an article that if you are
making making a lot of plaque inyour veins If they find it, the

(05:03):
nanoparticles get into yourblood and, and the micro
particles and they stick ontoyour plaque, which you don't
need any help with that, right?
So I think we are greatlyunderestimating. For anybody who
has ever had an autoimmunedisease, this is sitting in your
body parking along. And you cansee I'm really passionate about

(05:24):
this. Because you're basicallyputting fuel particles in your
body to sit there anddeteriorate and release all the
stuff that you would find an oiland this is not, you know, you
don't eat Vaseline, petroleumjelly for a reason. It's oil
based. And so as a result, Ithink that this is greatly

(05:50):
underreported, and I'm veryexcited about having Melissa
here to explain it to us becauseI've been wanting to do this for
a while. Thanks for coming onthe list. I really appreciate
it. And I'm sure I probably gotI'm gonna do a Rachel Maddow
here, I probably got somethingwrong, but you can fresh like
that she was asked to get itright. Journalists are jack of

(06:12):
all trades. We're not We're notspecialists in any one area. So
anyway, we'll start out with thewould you have mentioned could
be a very long topic. But Ithink to start this out, the
listeners have to hear the good,the good, bad and ugly about how
bad this is for environmentaland health problems with

(06:35):
microplastics and nanoplastics.
Because once they break up,they're very hard to get out.
You know, it's not like you'repicking up a bottle anymore,
you're picking up micro realsmall pieces. So why don't you
go ahead and talk aboutenvironmental health problems,
why the scientists are soalarmed.

Melissa Valliant (06:55):
It's a pleasure to be talking with both
of you, thank you for allowingme to be here. In the spirit of
Rachel Maddow, I will say thatthe climate and plastics crises
are intrinsically linked, aswell. So they are not separate.
Plastic contributes to climatechange by emitting greenhouse

(07:18):
gases throughout every stage ofits lifecycle. And it is such a
contributor to climate change,in fact, that if plastic were a
country, it would be the fifthfifth largest emitter of
greenhouse gases in the world.
That's impressive. It's far moreplastic produces far more

(07:42):
greenhouse gases than even theaviation sector, which is what
many people associate sostrongly with greenhouse gases.
So it's very important to keepin mind plastics relationship to
the climate crisis. In terms ofplastics, impacts on
environment, and human health,plastics are one of the greatest

(08:06):
threats to our planet. Today.
They do, as you mentioned,Deena, break up, and we do say
break up, rather than break downbecause the fact is that plastic
doesn't there's no evidence toprove that plastic actually does
break down that sounds like it.
Break down makes it sounds likesound like it degrades, like

(08:27):
paper, wood or another organicmaterial. Plastic does not what
it does do is break up intosmaller and smaller pieces, like
microplastics, which also canget even tinier to nanoplastics
microplastics are fivemillimeters meters or less
nanoplastics Or even smaller.

(08:49):
And there's an infinite numberof these little plastic pieces.
All throughout our planet. Noplace on this planet has been
untouched by plastic, as youmentioned, it's found on the
deepest part of the ocean, theMarianas Trench. It's also in
some of its in the air of themost remote mountains. Um, it's

(09:15):
been found a placentas, as youmentioned, it also there was a
recent study showing that it isin human brains, we found it in
feces, it's eve rywhere ourblood. It's very concerning. And
given that there are over 16,000chemicals used in the making of

(09:37):
various types of plastic. Yougotta wonder, what is this doing
to human health? So scientistsare very much investigating
that. And there's still a lot tolearn. But we have discovered it
in so many places of our body,and we're still trying to figure

(09:58):
out what those chemicals aredoing. Oh, yes,

yeah, I think many of us have seen these
pictures of the the remains of,of birds on remote Pacific
islands that have, you know,these big chunks of plastic and,
you know, that's not evenmicroplastics, you know, as you
put it out, those are, you know,five millimeters across or less.
And you know, these photos showchunks of plastic that are, you

(10:22):
know, 10s of millimeters long.
And you know that that's alreadysort of terrifying, you know,
the idea that a bird 1000s ofmiles from civilization can have
its belly full of these bigchunks of plastic. Just imagine,
in a tiny particles that wecan't even see, that are

(10:43):
throughout our own bodies,doing, you know, who knows what,
to our internal biologicalsystems, it's really an sort of
profoundly terrifying.

Dina Rasor (10:57):
And every time we eat something, especially like
fish in the ocean, or eatingmore of it,

and even more than that any of your food or
drinks that are packaged inplastic, the chemicals that are
used to make plastic, many ofwhich are known to be hazardous,
and perhaps even morealarmingly, even more, which
haven't been tested for toxicitywith humans whatsoever, they can
leach from that packaging, intoour food and drink. So we are

(11:28):
getting those chemicals fromplastic in the food, and drink.
And a lot of these chemicals,many of these chemicals are
associated with very serioushuman health problems, including
cancer, diabetes, hormonalissues, fertility issues, this

(11:48):
is very concerning.

Dina Rasor (11:51):
Autoimmune diseases, also, I believe, I would think
your immune system would justconstantly be trying to put the,
you know, these chemicals out,and that oftentimes leads to
autoimmune disease. It's

kind of it's kind of comical, in a way, in a
dark way of people often thinkof plastic as a way to sanitize
things, or keep them safe frombacteria, which it does, but at
the same time, we're doing thatwith a material that is made
with chemicals that we know tobe toxic. So this is not the

(12:28):
clean sanitary material thatwe're we're perceiving it to be.

So talk for just a minute about the scale of
the plastics industry. And youknow, the the idea that we're
constantly making more and moreof this. And why is only 9% of
that being recycled in any giventime.

So the plastics industry is
anticipating doubling plasticproduction by 2050. We already
are producing an alarming amountof plastic, it's over. You know
what I'm going to come back tothat we'll go back at the end, I
want to make sure I get the statright. But the reason the main

(13:16):
reason that most of thoseplastic isn't being recycled, is
because most of this plasticisn't recyclable. And dniu said
that 9% of plastic has beenrecycled, that is the current
global recycling rate. And also9% of all plastic ever generated
has been recycled. But here inthe United States, less than 6%

(13:41):
of plastic is recycled. Sonumbers one and two, which are
typically your single use waterbottles, soda, jugs, shampoo,
containers, that kind of thing,are typically the most
recyclable. But outside ofnumbers one and two, most

(14:02):
municipalities are unable torecycle the rest. And when you
think about it, numbers one andtwo, like your single use water
bottles and soda bottles. Whendo you get those? It's usually
when you're like on a road trip,you're not at home, and when you
go to dispose of it, there oftenisn't a recycling bin that you

(14:27):
can put it in so those numbersare even lower than they should
be. Which is also why we need tostart having more deposit laws
put in bottle bills so thatthere can be an incentive for
people to recycle these

Yeah, it's very easy for me, you know who
has lived in New York andSeattle for most of my adult
life to You know, think thatthere are recycle bins
everywhere. In most parts of thecountry that that's just not the
case. Yeah.

Dina Rasor (14:57):
I have a family farm in Kentucky. Key and I have yet
to see recycling in any town orany store, they just, you know,
they throw it in the trash ordown the hall.

I'm genuinely shocked to hear the
the United States actually lagsbehind the worldwide average, I
would have thought that we wouldhave been, you know, not weird,
but at least, you know, at theaverage and slightly above the
average what contributes to theUnited States not doing as well
as the world at large?

It's a great question and one that I not i
don't necessarily have theanswer to but we're not terribly
far behind. Both the 9% rate andunder 6% are both dismal. So
let's keep it

Dina Rasor (15:46):
fair enough, bad or worse.

plastic recycling is failing around the
world, not just here in theUnited States. We were at 8.7%
prior to the latest numbers,which are 2021 for the US
recycling rate. So we droppedfrom 8.7% down to less than 6%.
And to be honest, I don't havethe answer for you of exactly

(16:12):
why we we dropped a few. But asI said it was already dismal to
begin with. This is not, we'renot going to recycle our way out
of this mess and analogy I liketo use is if you walk into your
bathroom and find that your tubhas been flooding, and the
faucets on, you don't grab amop, that's not the first thing

(16:33):
you do, the first thing you dois turn off the tap. And then
you clean up. Recycling is themop for plastics, we are not
going to be able to clean upthat mess until we stop
producing so much unnecessaryplastic. And the onus, for that
change falls on companies andpolicymakers who can force

(16:57):
companies to reduce the amountof plastic they're using. It
does not fall on consumers. Asmuch as the industry has a, you
know, had ad campaigns and PRstunts for decades to convince
us that it's it's our problem.
Oh,

Dina Rasor (17:12):
you're walking right into my next question which is
explained who in the plasticplastics lobby greenwashing
industries that are againstabatement and reform? I mean,
who are the people that aregreenwashing this to make us
feel guilty that we might haveaccidentally thrown water bottle
not in the recycling bin, but inthe regular trash? What sounds

(17:36):
like it would have gotten theregular trash anyway.

So the green washing all started around the
1970s. People were realizingthat there were consequences to
this mass use of plastic and theconstant disposal of plastic.
And plastic companies andpetrochemical companies were
starting to feel the pressure.
And they did not want theirproduct or their production to

(18:03):
be regulated. So there areactually there was a great expos
a that came out in 2020 with NPRand Frontline that actually
found quotes and evidence fromplastics. execs in the 1970s
saying we know plastic recyclingis not going to solve the

(18:24):
problem. But we need to convincethe public that it will. Because
the alternative is us beingregulated. And we don't want
that this piece even had thefrontline peace even had these
former plastic execs talkingabout how they were present for
these conversations. It's prettywild. So this is when ad

(18:45):
campaigns like the cryingIndian, which some generations
will remember vividly came outthat was in the 1970s. And the
whole point of it was to makeconsumers feel bad for their
litter, which by the way, litteris also a word that was pretty

(19:06):
much created by the industry tomake consumers feel bad and
think that the pollution problemwas their problem. And that
crying Indian ad was just kindof the start of decades of
multimillion dollar ad campaignsby people like the Society of
plastics industry, which is nowcalled something else. Now we're

(19:31):
dealing with the AmericanChemistry Council as well, which
is a huge petrochemical industrybacked organization that I can
tell you is in all of thehearings and on the local, state
and federal level. Regardingplastic bands there, they're
lobbying there they're talkingto lawmakers, telling them that

(19:54):
this isn't the way to go. Thatrecycling can fix everything. So
please don't regulate plastic.

Dina Rasor (20:04):
This, this reminds me of a similar thing they did
with carbon footprint. In otherwords, when when the carbon
problem came out, it wasn't allthese belching smokestacks, it's
because you drove your car tothe grocery store too many
times. And so, you know, we gotto lower our carbon footprint.
So it sounds like the same kindof thing. Greg, you wanted to

(20:25):
make a comment? Oh,

just you know, I'm sorry to say that I'm
old enough to remember when lotsof things that are currently
packaged in plastic were packedin cardboard, wax paper, or
glass, you know, I'm, you know,I remember buying soda in glass,
I remember buying cereal, wherethe internal packaging was, was

(20:47):
wax paper and the exterior was,was cardboard, I remember buying
yogurt, when it was a cardboardcup, covered wax and a cardboard
cover covered in wax. How is theplastic industry, convincing

(21:08):
consumers and industry thatplastic is the only way to go,
when within our lifetime. Somuch of the things that we
currently use with do withplastic were, were done with
recyclable or biodegradablematerials. And let me add, you
know, aluminum and stainlesssteel to that too, you know,

(21:29):
there are all kinds of thingsthat you can, you can do with
those kinds of of metals that,you know, have been in the
environment essentially forever,and don't have known
carcinogenic or other harmfuleffects. And nevertheless,
instead of using those we'reusing plastic.

The plastics industry is favorite go to, is
to say that the alternativematerials to plastic, like
glass, for example, would have ahigher carbon footprint than
plastic itself. The truth isthat they're usually pointing to

(22:08):
what are called lifecycleassessments, there are a certain
type of scientific analysis orstudy that are typically funded
by the plastics industry. Andthey fail to show the full scope
of plastics contribution toclimate change, and its total
greenhouse gas emissionsthroughout its entire lifecycle.

(22:30):
It also obviously, is a huge gapto only talk about plastics,
climate impacts, and completelyleave out all of the other
devastating environmentalimpacts that plastic has on our
environment. So that's one ofthe justifications that the
plastics industry has. The truthis for them plastic is a cheap

(22:51):
option. And that's why they wantto keep it. But what we actually
encourage at beyond plastics isnot switching from one
disposable material to another.
So we don't think that thesolution has to be switching
from plastic to like you weresaying cardboard, or glass. The
ideal situation is actuallyswitching from single use

(23:13):
plastic to reusable andrefillable solutions. This is
not out of the question we have.
My grandmother grew up in an erawhere that was totally normal. I
mean, we all have heard of themilkman who came by with the
glass bottles and systems sothat people were paying extra

(23:36):
for the glasses, but they gotthat deposit back when they
returned them. The same thingcan be applied to a lot of the
everyday single use plasticitems that we use, we just need
to build the infrastructure forit, which is totally doable.

Dina Rasor (23:50):
Okay, so So one of the things that came up is that
and we kind of touched on butfossil fuel knows that the right
I think they know the writing'son the wall with oil, they're
doing a really good job pumpingthe hell out of everything now.
But eventually, as the cars getmore and more electric, and if

(24:11):
you know depending on dependingon who gets elected and whether
pollution and and climate changegets paid any attention. But
meanwhile, they know that youknow what they're looking down
they know that their one oftheir really profitable things

(24:31):
is making gas, jet fuel, thingslike that. And, of course, it's
also highly polluting, butevidently it's also highly
polluting to make plastic. Butwhy would they do that? Do they
really believe they can make upfor future oil losses with
plastic production as they callit? Plan B. I mean, is that why

(24:54):
everyone's estimating theplastics gonna go way up even
though we know it's everywherein our bodies.

I mean, plastic production, we know is
going to go way up because ofestimates that the plastics
industry themselves haveprovided. And because it's done
that consistently, since westarted mass producing plastic
in the 60s, society willeventually ditch fossil fuels as
fuels. As you're saying, forthings like driving your car, we

(25:24):
are starting to see, you know, ashift to hybrid vehicles and
electric vehicles. And I dothink that eventually we will be
phasing out that hard relianceon fossil fuels, the plastics
and petrochemical industriesknow that too. So they need
something to do with theirproduct away to sell it. And

(25:48):
that is why for decades, theyhave been increasingly finding
new ways to package our everydayitems. In plastic, it's, it's
gotten to the point where I'msure you all have ordered off of
Amazon, or somewhere elseonline. And sometimes it's
comical how much plasticpackaging comes with an item

(26:11):
that you bought. It'll have youknow, it'll be wrapped in like
thin plastic film, but thenthere'll be plastic, what do
they call them plastic pillows,all around it. Sometimes things
will be double wrapped inplastic in the grocery now
you'll find I find potatoes,single individual potatoes

(26:32):
wrapped in plastic, theyliterally come with their own
natural packaging the skin. Theyhave found ways to add their
product into everything that webuy, and they will continue
doing that.

Yeah, my favorite example was I went way
out of my way to find acompletely recyclable or you
know, or biodegradabletoothbrushes, you know, wooden
handles, you know, bamboo fiberbristles, and I was so excited
to finally get these and youknow, I ordered them on Amazon,
they arrive in a plastic bubblewrap envelope, having been flown

(27:14):
on a jet from from Germany andjust couldn't have been more
crushed. The you know, find thatdespite my best efforts, my
attempt to be biodegradable,which is completely undermined.

Boo utensils as well recently where I ordered
bamboo utensils, and they'resupposed to come in a canvas,
little pouch, which they did,but you open up the canvas pouch
and the bamboo utensils werewrapped in plastic.

Dina Rasor (27:46):
Well, I get a lot of those plastic Amazon things
which they claim are recyclable.
But it actually puts on thereless less material use than
cardboard, or boxes on there.
They'll tell you oh look, thisis lighter, this less, you know,
they'll get in boxes and stufflike that. Cardboard isn't isn't

(28:07):
going to kill us. Cardboardpeople put cardboard down for
mulch for their plants to growbetter. So I'm sitting here I'm
sort of sitting here going, youknow, who are you? Who are you
kidding here? You know, maybeit's lighter, you don't have to
hit don't have to have as muchgas. But hey, change to electric
delivery vans. So

I have a point to that too. Do you want me to
happen? Sure, go ahead. I thinkit's also important to discuss
what plastic recycling lookslike compared to other materials
like aluminum and glass. A lotof people don't realize that
aluminum and glass can both berecycled infinitely. So you can

(28:50):
take a glass bottle and it canbe recycled into a glass bottle
have the same value the samequality infinitely plastic. If
you take a plastic bottleplastic single use bottle it
will be recycled maximum twiceuntil it becomes something like

(29:10):
carpeting or cheapen edgeclothing. So the point being is
something that will not be ableto be recycled. So in that way
plastics recycling is notexactly recycling the plastic

(29:31):
waste but just kind of delayingthe inevitable entrance into the
environment.

Dina Rasor (29:39):
Yeah, I mean you can I found that I got a bunch of
old bottles. They're not worththey're not old enough to be
worth anything but their glassand I'm sure they're 50 6070
Maybe 100 years old, but I cantake them down to the recycling
bin and Those things sentence,somebody dug him out of a pond

(30:02):
somewhere and thought maybe I'dbe interested in him or
something. But that thosethings, you know, shows you that
you can do that you would never,by the time you get to plastic
that probably would havedeteriorated over that time and
to the micro nano particles.
Yeah, Greg?

Yeah, before we run out of time, I
want to make sure that we coverthe whole environmental justice
aspect of plastic manufacturer,you know, having to do with
where it's made and who itaffects and how it doesn't
affect all of us equally.

Yeah, so plastic has plastic is a
multifaceted issue, and that itnegatively affects so many
things. We know it affects theenvironment, we know it affects
climate, we know it is having animpact on human health. And then
there is the environmentaljustice aspect. So communities

(31:03):
of color and low incomecommunities are
disproportionately impacted byplastics pollution. That is
because plastic productionfacilities are typically cited
in environmental justicecommunities, which is again
communities of color and or lowincome communities. And this is

(31:25):
intentional, because thesecompanies are citing their
polluting facilities and areasthat don't necessarily have the
means to fight back. They kindof sneak in most of the time to
pretty quietly, so that theseresidents are just they have no

(31:45):
idea that this is going to bethe consequences that they're
going to have to live with thattheir families are going to be
exposed to moving forward. It'sthe same case for a lot of waste
management sites. So landfills,also typically cited around
environmental justicecommunities. incinerators, which

(32:07):
are awful for the environmentand human health with the toxic
air emissions that they have.
Those are also cited inenvironmental justice
communities. And then there's,you know, waste pickers
overseas. So when a lot of ourplastic recycling gets sent
overseas, which does happenunfortunately, a lot of the
plastic we're putting in ourbins is just sent to poor
nations in Asia that often don'thave the capacity or the

(32:34):
infrastructure to effectivelyrecycle it either it can get
burned, and those localcommunities polluting those
residents. And then also weretheir waste pickers sorting
through plastic to see what isactually recyclable. Those
workers are being exposed verypersonally and intimately to

(32:54):
plastics impacts as well.

Dina Rasor (33:00):
I in the United States, when, like the Permian
Basin as areas, you know, whenthey used oil wells, and
polluted and had spills and allthis kind of stuff. And, you
know, they were localcommunities, they call them
sacrifices, they openly callthem sacrifice zones, and I was

(33:20):
sort of shocked when I firstburst into that he was like,
Okay, this is bad, but are yougonna you're actually going to
admit this. And I think thatthey just had gotten so used to
the fact that these are distantfeel like disenfranchised
communities and so they can dowhat they want. I mean, you
know, the member of Congress isgoing to say, oh, but it brings

(33:42):
in jobs you know, or you know,in this kind of stuff, so
there's just not a lot of it andhonestly, there just isn't a lot
of awareness I think on plasticand people know that there's a
if there's a coal plant sittingthere puking out viscous
pollution and then you've gotthe tailings which are ongoing,

(34:02):
you know, the that are leachinginto the water table and all
that kind of stuff. But theydon't see that i The one thing I
think that's probably making ithard to get people to understand
it now you show him the giantflotillas of trash and it's
gotten into a whirlpool andstate you know, big like the

(34:23):
state of New Jersey kind oftrash, but they don't see the
the micro and nano particles.
Once it gets to that stage itbasically is out of sight the
public so they're filling uptheir glass drinking the glass I
have no idea that this is fullof micro plastics. So what are
you guys doing to try to have anawareness of in my understand

(34:45):
that they've actually found afilter that they could use for
microplastics not nano but microbut what do you got to do, you
know, filter the whole ocean?
Well, I guess you can Start byhaving water, water systems try
to filter it out. So you don'tdrink it I don't know is there

(35:07):
is that just trying to empty theocean with a teaspoon kind of
approach.

This is a tricky subject to discuss,
because the plastics industrywould prefer we talk about
cleanups, rather than policiesthat reduce the amount of
plastic that's produced in thefirst place. And so cleanups can
sometimes be seen as adistraction. Because it's like I

(35:37):
said, with the analogy about thethe tub overflowing and not
turning off the tap, first, weneed to turn off the tap,
otherwise mopping it up, is notgoing to do enough. And you're
gonna keep getting this influxof water, in this case, plastic.
It can't hurt for things likehere in Baltimore, we have Mr.

(36:01):
Trash wheel, which he's he's gothis own personality with googly
eyes. It's this coolinfrastructure on the Jones
Falls that collects pollutionand trash as it flows into the
harbor. And that's great. But asyou mentioned, that's not going
to do anything for microplasticsor nanoplastics, those things

(36:22):
aren't going to be found. Norare they going to be found by
some of the bigger operations,like the ocean cleanup, which is
attempting to clean up gyres, wecan only do so much and it
definitely won't have an impactunless we're cutting plastic
production and plastic use.

I just want to mention that many of these,
these plastic plants that arethe ones that produce the
pellets that are shipped allover the world to be made and
have finished plastic goods arecreated or, you know, their
value proposition comes in largepart from the the fact that
natural gas is now soinexpensive, especially in the

(37:03):
United States. And so there'sthis sort of illusory value
proposition of we can cite thisplant in your, in your tat tax
district, and you can collect alot of taxes on this. Meanwhile,
the plant is sort of producingproblems at both ends. It's

(37:25):
using a tremendous amount ofenergy, typically, by burning
natural gas, and then it'sincreasing the quantity of
plastics that are flowing intothe environment and releasing
toxic chemicals. In themeantime.

Yeah, I think, I don't know if you all have
heard of cancer alley. Have youheard of cancer alley?

Yeah, we have, but not all our listeners.

Dina Rasor (37:49):
Yeah, Louisiana and Texas. I know. It's we're,

yeah. So Louisiana and Texas, the golf
areas where plastic companiesare setting up shop, most of the
time, it's also spreading toAppalachia now, so we're seeing
it in Ohio and Pennsylvania aswell. And as I mentioned, it's
always in these typically blackor, and or low income
communities. And cancer Alley isone that has been going on for

(38:17):
decades and continues to getbuilt out by plastic with
plastic production facilities.
But the cancer rate is so muchhigher there than the national
average that it has earned themoniker cancer alley. I have
been lucky enough to hear frompeople who live their advocates
that are fighting for their owncommunities for their own

(38:40):
families. And it is alarming andheartbreaking what we hear from
them, of how many people thatthey've lost to cancer. We just
would be on plastics did a mediabriefing back in, I think it was
February feels like ages andit's only March. But we did a

(39:01):
media briefing in Port Arthur,Texas this year. And that is
really the belly of the beastfor plastic production. We
actually did a toxic tour wherewe could stop at different
plastic production plants.
Obviously we couldn't get it goin none of the companies are
going to welcome us onto there.
But we stood outside of theprivate property check out like

(39:25):
exactly where these werelocated, what it looks like and
what it could be affecting. Oneof them was It was literally a
school, sports field athleticfield with all of these, you
know, high school sign signageeverywhere and surrounding it
was those smokestacks and havetoxic chemicals coming out of it

(39:51):
and it was just eye opening.
People don't realize exactly A Ithink most people don't realize
that this is impacting people onthat kind of level. And
unfortunately, I don't think itgets the media coverage it
deserves, either. It's somethingthat we're increasingly working

(40:14):
on and I know environmentalactivist everywhere increasingly
trying to, to amplify to thecommunity.

Dina Rasor (40:21):
Okay, well, what what's currently being done to
reform legislation, whatultimately needs to be done to
fix start to fix the problem?
What type of cleanup can berealistically done? And I know
you talked about startingstopping the production. Go
ahead, Greg. Yeah, yeah.

So when we say clean up, I think we mean,
from beginning to end, you know,clean up as in pre emptive,
clean up, before the messhappens. And retroactive Clean
up, clean up after the messhappens?

Dina Rasor (40:53):
I mean, could we start to mine the, the big
plastic Block blob that's out inthe size of New Jersey? Or has
so much of that deterioratedinto, to micro things? I mean, I
would think that you, it'd beeasier to go out there and scoop
up this stuff and recycle it,then it would be to make new new

(41:16):
virgin plastic, would that work.

But then again, even if you were
hypothetically able to collectall of that plastic and recycle
it effectively, which isn'trealistic, but if you could,
that recycled plastic is goingto be not just as toxic, but
even more toxic, unfortunately,than the Virgin plastic products

(41:40):
that we use, why the toxicityincreases when it is recycled.
And so even if even if it was avirgin plastic, you know,
products made from freshplastic, that's still
concerning, it still comes withthe health impacts the health
risk. So again, it's recyclingplastic, even if we could do it

(42:03):
on a large scale is not theanswer. It's not going to clear
us of the health risk associatedwith plastic. We really need to
get policies on the local, stateand federal level, and even
international because that'ssomething that's happening now
we're having plastic talks onthe international level, global

(42:25):
UN treaty talks around plastics,the next one is actually coming
up in April, in Ottawa, Canada,to reduce the production and use
of plastic, we've been seeingthat in the United States,
obviously, with plastic bands,plastic bag bans, plastic straw
bands were some of the firstones to come out. And it was

(42:45):
plastic, bad bands, we've alsoseen a lot of polystyrene bands
in the past five or six years.
That's what's known asStyrofoam, often, and some
reductions in foodware, plasticfoodware. So we need more of
that on a more comprehensivelevel. And paired, of course,
with ways to improve wastemanagement systems like

(43:06):
recycling. But without thereduction, we're not going to
get anywhere.

So very much like burning
petrochemicals, you know, it'smuch better not to burn it to
begin with than it is to try tocatch her efforts been burned.
Likewise, with plastic, it'smuch better to never make it to
begin with never, you know,drill the oil out of the ground
and make it into plastic than itis to try to recycle it or
otherwise remediate the problem,after you've drilled up on all

(43:37):
that oil and made it intoplastic. Absolutely.

Dina Rasor (43:43):
Okay, so what what kind of what's going on in the
Congress? What's going on, youknow, on reform, what's going on
with the White House, the EPA,is EPA doing anything about it?
I mean, what do you see? And Idon't want to spend the whole
hour talking about ain't itawful, because, you know,
people, people have already gota bunch of awful stuff they have

(44:06):
to listen to every day. And sowhat I always tried to do is
okay, what if you were going tothe world, you know, what would
you do to start turning thisaround?

So, there is a bill in Congress being
considered called the break freefrom Plastic Pollution Act. This
takes a very comprehensiveapproach to the issue, which is
exactly what we need. Itincludes, you know, eliminating
or phasing out certain singleuse plastics. It also includes a

(44:40):
moratorium on new plasticproduction facilities. And it
includes protections forfenceline communities or
environmental justicecommunities that are so
intimately impacted by plastic.
This is a great solution to theplastic pollution issue. It's

(45:01):
something that I would love tosee passed. On the state level
in New York State, there'sactually a model bill. It's the
perfect state bill that if wecould just get it passed in New
York and have it replicated inthe CEP, you know, all other
states, ideally, we would bemaking huge inroads in curbing

(45:23):
plastic pollution in the UnitedStates. And just like the break
free from Plastic Pollution Act,it's it takes a comprehensive
approach where it's reduction,but also figuring out how to
improve waste management systemslike recycling. It's called the
packaging reduction andrecycling infrastructure act.
It's a little bit of a mouthful,so I always struggle

Dina Rasor (45:47):
with it. Did it pass or it's still pending.

It is in session right now. And we are
hoping that that it'll come to avote, and we'll have it passed.
But we are pretty optimisticabout it. And hoping that
Goliath that we're goingagainst, is not going to kill
our chances at this belt,because the amount of money that

(46:13):
goes into lobbying on their sideand swaying these lawmakers is
what is progressing orpreventing progress. For us
around the country to havesomething like this passed would
be huge.

Dina Rasor (46:26):
Does the EPA follow this at all? Do they try to
follow? I mean, do they have areporting system on how much
plastic is going in? I knowthey're doing probably doing
some research, but are theydoing any kind of monitoring of
the plastic industry? Um, hesaid sounds like it's not a yes

(46:48):
or no answer.

It's not.
While the EPA is aware thatplastic pollution is an issue,
there definitely is a need formore tracking and monitoring of
how much plastic is beinggenerated in the US and how much
waste we're dealing with becauseof it. The EPA actually is
considering something that wouldbe huge right now in terms of

(47:14):
plastic and human health. vinylchloride is a known human
carcinogen we've known it's ahuman carcinogen for 50 years
now. And it is the primaryingredient in PVC plastic. So
PVC plastic is what lines a lotof people's drinking water

(47:34):
pipes, some of their flooring.
It's in our children's toys likethe rubber duckies that kids
chew on and which is prettyhorrendous when you think about
the whole human carcinogen partof it. But the EPA last December
announced that they wereconsidering banning vinyl

(47:58):
chloride, they're consideringmaking it one of five chemicals
that they would evaluate do arisk assessment for under Tosca,
which is the Toxic SubstancesControl Act. And so we are
currently I think, today,actually March 18, is the last
day for public comment. Wesubmitted beyond plastics

(48:20):
submitted its public commenttoday to the EPA, and we are
keeping our fingers crossed.
Again, we're going againstGoliath here, but we are keeping
our fingers crossed that the EPAstays strong. And includes vinyl
chloride is one of the chemicalsthat it'll follow through with
banning.

So just for the the amateur chemist in the
audience, what is the differencebetween poly polyvinyl chloride
and vinyl chloride?

So vinyl chloride is an ingredient in
polyvinyl chloride plastic, and99% of all the vinyl chloride
produced is produced forpolyvinyl chloride plastic or
PVC plastic.

Dina Rasor (49:05):
And, am I wrong that the vinyl chloride something
hitting my inveighing was Whereis where that train wreck in
Ohio where they had they hadtanker cars of it, they were
afraid it's gonna blow up sosomebody and of course now
they're saying is the world'sworst thing you could have done?

(49:26):
Somebody said let's just burn itoff. They just burnt those these
things were not leaking orthey're sitting there and they
that Oh, but it might blow up.
Well, yeah, but they ended upburning off tank after tank
after tank in the in the publicin that little town. I forget
what it's called.

And I'm really saying, Yeah, policy

Dina Rasor (49:49):
and I'm sure and I know I've seen you know,
interviews with them. It's like,Why the hell would you burn this
stuff in our in our little town?
And

they said at the time that the decision was
made, as you said, To avoid anykind of combustion or explosion,
but it has come out since thenthat that wasn't actually a
risk. So it very much felt likethe train companies need or

(50:17):
urgency to get their trains backon track was prioritized over
the health of the community. Weactually have a relatively new
staff member of beyond plastic.
She's been here for almost ayear. She's our Appalachia
director, just Connor, and sheis an East Palestine, Ohio
resident, she had never doneadvocacy in her life until a

(50:38):
train derailed in her backyard.
And she has a kid. Theyexperienced short term health
issues. They're still fightingfor an emergency declaration
from President Biden. And she isactively fighting with beyond
plastics now for a ban on vinylchloride through the US EPA.

Dina Rasor (50:59):
Yeah, burning that.
I mean, I would think that wouldput you put it up in the air,
that means it could go miles,you know, and then the next
rainstorm is going to push itall down into the water table.
Know where, you know, it mightnot be these pellston it might
be, you know, further over inWest Virginia somewhere, but
whenever, you know, wheneverwould cause it to come out of

(51:22):
the air and water and stuffcontained?

No. Yeah.

Dina Rasor (51:28):
So it's so everybody who was within the east of that
that was in the wind blow. Youhave no idea when that when that
those clouds dropped theirchemicals, right.

And her hundreds of communities like
East Palestine and the UnitedStates that are along those same
railroad, railroads and tracksthat carry cars with vinyl
chloride is Palestinian was notthe first to experience a
derailment like that. And Idon't think it'll be the last
unless the Federal Governmenttakes action to prevent the

(52:04):
production of vinyl chloride inthe first place.

Dina Rasor (52:09):
Well, um, that Debbie downer, Debbie Downer was

supposed to be in progress, like the talking to
prep

Dina Rasor (52:16):
progress, at least at least, you're looking at it,
at least the people are tryingto fight it. But I didn't
considering

it. I mean, this is huge. If we've known
vinyl chloride was a humancarcinogen for 50 years. sad
that it took us this long to getto the point where it's like,
hey, maybe we should assess itfor risk considering it's in all
of these everyday products thatwe touch every day.

Dina Rasor (52:42):
Big tanks, tankers all over the old railroads

into that big first step. And I think it's
really important that peoplerealize how big that is, so that
we can hopefully get to the laststep in this process.

Dina Rasor (52:59):
So really, what all of this we've talked about, kind
of comes down to simple wording,and that is, I, you know, I was
going to ask what kind ofcleanup can be realistically
done. And it's sort of like,don't do it in the first place.
And I remember we had BillMcKibben on, and he had just

(53:21):
who's on your board, who hadjust done a Atlantic Monthly
article. And I asked him at onepoint, he thought it was a joke,
but I was serious, I said, thetitle of this should be on a
bumper sticker. And that was theearth is on fire, stop burning

(53:45):
things. And that's the set andyou know, what, anytime somebody
comes up with carbon capture orsome new, you know, pipe dream
that they have, I'm sort oflike, I use that in my head to
say, Okay, we should not burnit, try to capture it, and then
take it out of the ground, burnit, try to capture it, put it

(54:07):
back in the ground, you know,with pipelines and all those
other popular things. And sothat gives me clarity when it
comes down to climate and itsounds like the same kind of
thing could be applied toplastics, you know? Don't you
know the pollution the pollutionis over whelming us don't try to

(54:28):
clean it up. Clean it up. Don'ttry to see Thank you can clean
it, keep cleaning it up? Stopmaking

it pretty much that 90% of living things
have plastic in their bodies.
Yeah.

Dina Rasor (54:40):
Where are we gonna wait till it's 100% There is no
place to go in the world. Imean, I occasionally go to
Hawaii and snorkel and I looknow I think all those beautiful
fish have the plastic in thembecause of course, you know,

on the consumer level, I will say I
understand the need I understandhow consumers want to be
empowered, like they see thisproblem of plastic pollution,
and they want to do somethingabout it. And I love that.

Dina Rasor (55:09):
Them individuals

doing cleanups is not going to hurt anything.
But I do want to throw out therethat I feel like individuals can
better use their time andefforts by, for example,
submitting public comment to theEPA, supporting the banning of
vinyl chloride or urging theirlocal elected officials to pass

(55:37):
single use plastic bands intheir community, or even if they
have certain institutions thatthey're very involved in,
whether that's a school or achurch, trying to create a
plastic free zone there, that'sgoing to have an even bigger
impact than, you know, just thetime and effort that it takes
for their two hands to pick uptrash on a coastline. So there

(55:57):
are ways to help. I just wantindividuals who are listening to
know that it's not a hopelessscenario, if anything, we need
more consumers, individuals tobe pushing policymakers the same
way that my organization andother environmental
organizations are pushing them.
Because if they're hearing fromthe people who are voting them

(56:18):
into office, that's gonna have alot of sway.

Dina Rasor (56:24):
So you're saying, it makes you feel better that you
switched off to these laundrysheets, and you don't throw them
a plastic jug anymore? You verycareful how you recycle, or
you're gonna go up, go up anddown the street and pick up
litter and all that kind ofstuff. And that's not a negative

(56:44):
thing. But if you really wantit, yeah, if you really want
your your if you really wantyour time to work, call your
local officials say why don't wehave this law, that's probably
10 times better than how manyplastic jugs you can pick up in
two hours.

Yes, but absolutely refuse plastic where
you can do we always forget thatwe were taught the three R's,
right in school like reduce,reuse, recycle. But recycle is
the only one that's reallytalked about. And it's the third
one for a reason. It's the leastimpactful. Reduce and reuse are
even more impactful and reducesthis amaz refusing for me, so

(57:25):
you go out to a restaurant andthey offer you, you know that
they're going to offer a plasticstraw because you see plastic
straws and people's drinksaround you say when you order
your drink, can I go no straw,you know, anything that you can
do to refuse plastic, bringingyour reusable bag to the
grocery, for example. Plastic,do it, but also be a local

(57:46):
advocate, because we need moreof that push from communities to
activate lawmakers to pass thepolicies that are going to have
the big impact.

Yeah, I was gonna maybe sum it up by saying
you know, don't buy the plasticproduct and seek to recycle it
refuse the plastic product,there are alternatives.

Dina Rasor (58:09):
out there. I know there's a guy in Southern
California that every day hegoes, he's on Facebook, he goes
out and picks up trash in themountains and comes in and, you
know, literally staggers intowith these giant bags of trash
and everything. And that's good.
I mean, that's good. It'shelpful. But I just wonder that
I always say to people,sometimes it feels like we're

(58:29):
trying to empty the ocean with ateaspoon. You know, where if you
really want to do this, you needto go to your local officials.
And be Don't, don't be surprisedthat you you know that you can
get places with local officialshave enough people concentrate
on it. And you know, they ofcourse will say they're for

(58:50):
this, because they're always forsomething, whatever you come in
for, but then say, you know,then get specific how what are
you doing? What is the statedoing? What is the local people
doing? You know, if it's amember of Congress, what are you
doing in Congress? What kind ofwhat kind of structural
legislation or something are wedoing to change this so that we

(59:10):
don't keep making it.

And also FYI, beyond plastics has a host of
local and Group affiliatesthroughout the country, it's
over 100 now, so we're workingon the grassroots level with
communities and would be happyto welcome any new members. So
if you would like to learn moreabout what you can do in your

(59:39):
own community, or how to try topass policies or get policies
passed that reduce single useplastic use, you can go to be on
plastics.org There are so manyresources there fact sheets on
just about any plastics issuethat you could find and also to
sign up for emails or reach outto us about ways that you You

(01:00:00):
can help

Dina Rasor (01:00:02):
some otherwise.
Otherwise, if you're depressed,we're gonna have well, we will
publish their website, go findwhatever takes you off the most,
get the information sheet and dosomething about it. That's
pretty much what you wouldsuggest.

Melissa Valliant (01:00:17):
Absolutely.
And petitions are so easy to Wehave numerous petitions on the
plastics issue, and it takesliterally less than a minute to
fill in. We've done all the workfor you in writing the letter,
all you got to do was put inyour name, your email address,
and click Submit.

Gregory A. Williams (01:00:35):
Well, that seems like a great note to end
on. Is there anything else thatyou want to talk about before we
sign off?

I'm trying to think I feel like there were a
couple of things I wanted tonote, I wish I had taken note of
them. Well,

I want to assure you that if you ever want
to come back, we'd be very happyto have you. And so if you think
of those things, we'll set upanother time. We'll have another
episode. Sounds great. Yeah,

Dina Rasor (01:01:00):
we had a local advocate that was trying to shut
down the coal plant and have itswitched over. And he's not in
this switching over yet. But hethey all said he was in
Farmington, New Mexico, and werejust awful. And one of those
sacrifices and he actually wasable to get the plant close. And

(01:01:24):
now he's fighting to make sureit's not replaced with you know,
blue or gray hydrogen, you know,kind of thing. So, when he had
that victory, we had him back onbecause we are you know it we
are really big on localactivists and I, you know, look
lactose was in the truth outArticle Two, he was just

(01:01:47):
relentless. And and so what Iwhat I would like to tell you is
when you have a victory, so youdo something and it works. Email
us, and we'll have you on. Andbecause I'm not going to, I
think we need to have 20 showson this because it's just under
the radar, and it's just asdangerous. It's just amazing to

(01:02:10):
me how dangerous it is.

Well, thank you so much for highlighting the
problem and taking the time totalk to me.

Hey, thank you very much for being with us
tonight.

Have a good one.

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How The Plastics Industry is Tied to Fossil Fuels – Melissa Valliant

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How The Plastics Industry is Tied to Fossil Fuels – Melissa Valliant