Protecting Communities in an Oil Boom - Kayley Shoup

Kayley Shoup is an activist with the Citizens Caring for the Future, an environmental group that is affiliated with New Mexico Interfaith Power & Light in Carlsbad, New Mexico. When she moved back to her hometown, she became alarmed at the increase of pollution from the nearby expanded oil and gas fields of the Permian Basin, and is determined to do something about it. Recently, a NASA satellite from its EMIT program, which is designed to measure and characterize mineral dust sources to find new minerals, found a massive methane leak near the Carlsbad gas and oil fields. Kayley describes how her organization works to inform their community using data from a wide range of sources, including NASA and other non-profits such as Earthworks.

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Episode Transcript

Greg Williams (00:10):
Thanks for joining us for another episode
of climate money watchdog wherewe investigate and report on how
federal dollars are being spenton mitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please

(00:30):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and consider making adonation. Tonight's guest is
Kayley Shoup, an activist withcitizens caring for the future,
and an environmental group thatis affiliated with New Mexico
interfaith Power and Light inCarlsbad, New Mexico. When she
moved back to her hometown, shebecame alarmed at the increase

(00:53):
of pollution from the nearbyexpanded oil and gas fields, and
is determined to do somethingabout it. Recently, a NASA
satellite from its aemetprogram, which we'll learn more
about later is which is designedto measure and characterize
minimal dusts, I'm sorry,mineral dust sources to find new
minerals, found a massivemethane leak there near the

(01:17):
Carlsbad gas and oil fields.
Dina, would you like to say moreabout why we've asked Kaylee to
join us tonight?

Dina Rasor (01:25):
Yes, we're going to what we're going to try to do is
is, you know, I could havecalled up the head of JPL and
NASA, this is a bigbreakthrough, they're able to
detect methane leaks with thesame satellite, even though
that's not its main goal. Andthey're gonna start publishing
the data. And I could have gotcalled up the guy from JPL and
he would have gone and wecouldn't nerd it out on the on

(01:47):
the satellite. But what I wasreally more interested in when I
read the article about it wasthat Kaley had made some
comments about it. And Ithought, boy, this could be very
powerful. This and other maybeeven their own technology,
infrared technology andwhatever, could be very powerful
in detecting methane leaks.
Because this the, the amount ofsensors they put up usually are

(02:10):
not enough. And they always hadUnnai. And on and on. So we
wanted to have Kaylee on today.
Because she is an activist witha group that lives there. It's
her hometown. And so we're goingto start with trying as much as
we can to get the macro and themicro, you know, something macro

(02:31):
happens like methane all thesudden the satellite can say,
See methane leaks, and the microis what are these communities?
How can the Muse do it? And Iwant her to tell her story about
her, but about that, and whatthey're trying to do. So that's
anybody who's out therelistening, who's an activist who

(02:52):
feels that they have a story totell about their local struggle.
We like to highlight thesepeople, because just about any
reporter can go get a commentfrom NASA. So anyway, that's my
two cents on this and why Ithink that this is the important
issue to talk about, and howactivists can find out that

(03:16):
there's a lot of tools they canuse against these big companies.

Greg Williams (03:23):
So welcome, Kaley. What did you tell us
about your group citizens caringabout the future?

Kayley Shoup (03:28):
Sure. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you
so much for having me and forgiving me this platform, I
really appreciate it. And totell our story, the story of my
community, my own story. Um, soa little bit about citizens
caring for the future. First,I'll put into context of where
we are. So I'm in Carlsbad, NewMexico, Southeast New Mexico on
the border of West Texas, and aplace called the Permian Basin.

(03:51):
The Permian Basin is the mostactive oilfield in the country,
if not the world. And it spansWest Texas, that Southeast New
Mexico, and this oil boom reallystarted around 2016 2017, when
they realized that there was alot of untapped resources that
they could get to with frackingand horizontal drilling. And

(04:13):
ever since our communities have,you know, fundamentally really
changed and this oil field hasbeen going strong, ever since it
has some of the lowest breakevencost in the country. And it has
the most untapped resources. Iwant to save any oil basin in
the world. So we continue tosee, you know, new production

(04:33):
every day. And this is justsomething that seems to be
growing at a time when weprobably need to be at least at
the very least, stopping newproduction and really ideally,
winding down the oil and gasindustry to an extent.

Greg Williams (04:48):
But you've got a great video about the Permian
Basin on your website, and we'regonna have a link to that along
with the podcast.

Kayley Shoup (04:54):
Perfect. So that video is so handy and
informative and I'm really gladthat you guys are going to
include that link because itreally gives a good outline
that's much more specific thanwhat I just stated. But I did
just want to give a little bitof contact context about where
citizens caring for the futureis. Citizens caring for the
future, as you mentioned, is asmall grassroots environmental

(05:15):
advocacy group in Southeast NewMexico. The way it got started
is interfaith Power and Light,which is a national organization
that brings together faithleaders from all different
faiths to work on climate changeissues. They have a New Mexico
El Paso chapter of interfaithPower and Light. And I work
closely with the director ofthat organization, her name is

(05:37):
Sister, Joan Brown, and shewould organize and we still
organized to this day, but yearsago, she would organize what she
would call faith retreats, andshe would bring faith leaders
from northern New Mexico. And ifyou don't know much about New
Mexico politics, there's thenorth side. And then there's the
well, there's a whole statethat's very democratic, and then

(05:57):
there's a southeast corner thatis very, very conservative, and
like a little slice of Texas, inNew Mexico. And so we're very
siphoned off very separated. Andshe would bring faith leaders
from northern New Mexico to cometo this area, to tour the oil
field to really see thedevastation that is going on
what is happening to our land,we have, you know, 56,000 wells

(06:22):
in the state of New Mexico withthe majority of those being in
the Permian Basin, and peoplejust really can't fathom it
until you come see it. And shewould bring folks down to do
that. And then to also meet withlocal people and hear their
stories, hear their concerns.
And there were a few faithleaders from Carlsbad that were
taking part in one of thesepanels. And this was in the fall
of 2019. And they got to talkingand they were talking about

(06:45):
their concerns. And they all hadthe same concerns, you know, the
land, and what was happening toit, the traffic, cost of living
health issues. And they listenedto one another and said, you
know, what, we're all of us areconcerned about this, no one is
speaking out about this. And wethink we really need to, and so

(07:05):
they stepped up and they createda leadership team, and with the
help of interfaith Power andLight, and then also earthworks,
if you've ever heard of them,they're a DC based nonprofit
that does thermography, for themost part, catching leaks in oil
and gas sites with the help ofthose two groups. They help
secure funding and really getcitizens caring for the future

(07:28):
off of the ground and late 2019.
So that's a little bit about howwe got started. I actually

Greg Williams (07:38):
learned about earthworks from an earthworks
technician, somebody whooperates drones and infrared
photography on a cab ride to anairport about 10 years ago. Oh
my gosh, how cool. Yeah, it'svery bright now.

Dina Rasor (07:55):
Now we kind of like to hear about your story,
because very interesting,because you grew up there, but
you left and then came and wentout, had this various
adventurism career and cameback. And so tell us, tell us a
little bit about your story. Andwhy you when you came back, you
just, you know, we're drawn todo this.

Kayley Shoup (08:14):
Yeah. So I was born and raised in Carlsbad, you
know, classic small town, therewas a little bit of oil and gas,
but nothing like we have now.
You know, it was it was anindustry, but it was always
booming and busting frackingwasn't here. And I left home in
2010. And I moved back right atthe beginning of 2018. So that

(08:34):
was in, I would say, ourproduction levels are as high as
they were in 2018. But we havemore infrastructure in place
now. So you don't quite feel itin the community as much as you
did in 2018. We had an influx ofabout 20,000 people at that
point in time. And as soon as Imoved back, I noticed all sorts

(08:55):
of changes. Things like all of asudden getting across town,
which used to take 10 minutescould take up to 30 minutes,
because your four way stopsbacked up for miles was semis.
There was daily car crashes onour main highway down here.
Because these folks, you know,they don't have regulation and
there can be on the job for allhours, people falling asleep at

(09:17):
the wheel. And these daily fatalcar wrecks no one was reporting
on them because you know, it'stransient folks. They don't live
in the area. So you would justhear about it. through word of
mouth. I noticed the cost ofliving was asked Oh,

Greg Williams (09:31):
go I just want to confirm you said daily fatal car
accidents.

Kayley Shoup (09:36):
Yes, daily fatal car crashes, really at that
point in time, especially ourroads were not ready to take on
that kind of traffic, and abunch of two lane highways. And
it was just really sad. Therewas a saying it was called stay
alive on to 85. And that was themain that is one of the main
corridors and that problem hasbeen remedied to an extent but

(09:59):
it was very bad. out in 2018 and2019, we had astronomical cost
of living to rent an apartmentat that point was about the same
prices in New York City or LosAngeles apartment. And they
would create new apartments. Andbefore anyone can rent one
Chevron, or Exxon would rent outthe whole apartment building, we

(10:21):
had teacher shortages. Becausekeep in mind, we're dealing with
an influx of 20,000 people,these people come with children,
they come with families. So ourschools have all these new
influx of kids couldn't hireteachers, because teachers
couldn't find the place to live,the cost of living was too high.
And just all these systemicissues that I noticed and

(10:41):
observed in my day to day life.
But within about a year of beingback, I began having friends,
family members, acquaintancesthat I know being dying,
diagnosed with rare andaggressive cancers, a friend of
mine, in his early 20s, gotdiagnosed with a rare and
aggressive cancer, my own motherat the age of 50, without any

(11:02):
family history was diagnosedwith ovarian cancer, I would
hear about countless childrenwith leukemia, different
cancers. And at that point, Igot to thinking to myself, you
know, it's so odd to know thismany people dealing with these
rare illnesses at relativelyyoung ages. And they all live
within this close area. And so Istarted to think, well, there

(11:25):
has to be some kind ofenvironmental factor at play.
And this was in the fall of2019. And I didn't know where to
turn, I never been involved inclimate activism, environmental
justice, work, nothing likethat. And so I just kind of
looked up, studies tried to findwhat I could kind of came up
with some stuff, but for themost part empty handed and then

(11:47):
one day, I saw an ad on Facebookfor a community meeting that the
New Mexico EnvironmentDepartment was putting on. And
some legislation had just beenpassed called the produce water
act, where we're actuallyplanning to clean produced water
in New Mexico, which issomething most hydrologist say
you cannot safely do. We plan toclean that water, though and use
it for crops and so on and soforth. So there was an

(12:11):
informational meeting hosted bythe environment department about
this program. And I went to thatmeeting, it was a bunch of
legislators and industry folk,for the most part.

Greg Williams (12:23):
Again, to clarify what was the source of the water
that you were going to becleaning,

Kayley Shoup (12:28):
and produce water.
So that is what comes back upafter fracking, the fluid that
they put down, it comes back up.
And so not only does it have thechemicals that are in the actual
water that they frack with thatincludes undisclosed chemicals,
PF A's are very abundant andproduce water. But when it comes
back up, it can be radioactivebecause of the rock formation

(12:52):
that it has been throughsomewhere like Pennsylvania,
their particular basin is veryradioactive, so they're produced
water comes with a very highload of radiation. Our
formations are not quite asradioactive the rock is not as
dangerous, but it is stillradioactive to an extent. So
it's a very dangerous wastewaterfrom oil and gas, New Mexico

(13:15):
plants to clean it and use thatfour crops we have Mexico State
University has a consortium thatis working on cleaning this
water. The consortium is fundedby Exxon. So you kind of see the
different issues there. But Iwent to this meeting, and it's
legislators and industry folks,for the most part, and there was

(13:35):
a little family there was aschool night, and it was later
getting into like eight o'clock.
And they brought their two youngkids. And they stood up and they
said we have water trucksdumping produced water on our
land. We don't know what to do.
We call 911. They say there'snothing they can do. And that is
now outlawed in New Mexico, butat the time, it wasn't. And they
basically had the New MexicoEnvironment Department tell them

(13:57):
how there's not much of anythingwe can do. And that just was
heartbreaking to me. But then itled into a conversation of the
state of enforcement in NewMexico. And I just blindly
trusted that, you know, ourenvironment department. EPA was
protecting us i It was scary tosee everything going on around
but I had a very false sense ofsecurity. That's the day I

(14:19):
learned that that was false. AndI lived very scared. As I
mentioned, we have 56,000 wellsin New Mexico. The New Mexico
Environment Department has fourair inspectors for the entire
state oil conservation division,the other group that is
responsible for monitoring thatthey have funding for 14 people

(14:40):
they do not employ 14 peoplebecause it is very hard to hire
and compete with what the oilindustry is paying. So I left
that day, absolutely terrified.
And then COVID happened and lifekind of stood still for a while
and in late 2021 US citizenscaring for the futures
leadership net Members, he gotin touch with me. He found me on

(15:01):
Facebook. And he said, Would youlike to meet with me and Natalie
Ebby issue was a thermographerwith earthworks at the time,
she's no longer with the group.
He said she's going to be here,we're going to be looking at
different oil and gas sidesthrough a FLIR video camera,
which is the thermography videocamera where you can see the
methane emissions. I said, Oh mygosh, yes, I would love to do

(15:23):
that. So I went and met thesetwo people that I had never met
before on the side of thehighway. And they said, real
quick, we're going to go to thisfamily's house that had a
produce water spill across fromtheir land. And I've actually
just read their story. And Iremember thinking at the time,
oh, my gosh, I can't believethere's people speaking about

(15:44):
this. And they have a platformto do it. Because if you come
from this area, we are the onlyenvironmental advocacy group in
the whole of the Permian Basin.
And people don't really speakout because it's a very
conservative area. It's very rawraw oil and gas. And it can be
dangerous because of kind of howextreme politics has become

(16:05):
nowadays. And so I got to meetthis family, their names, Penny
and de Coyne. And they had aproduce water line burst across
from their house in January of2020. And it showered their home
with radioactive waste, andcontaminated waste and long

(16:26):
story short, they ended uphaving to put all of their
animals down due to exposure,and they ended up settling with
the company and moving on. Butthat day, I got to meet them and
hear more about their story. AndI learned about citizens caring
for the future, and that itexisted. And they were looking
for a community organizer. And Isaid, You know what, I think

(16:47):
this is something I could do.
And so it was very organicallythat I came into all of this and
through a real concern for thecommunity.

Dina Rasor (16:59):
Okay, so you talk about all these problems, and it
probably felt overwhelming atthe time. And I also know, when
you would read when I read yourstuff, or brought up there's a
problem too, that people areafraid they're going to lose
their jobs, you know, becausethat's when you win the oil and
gas is obviously the largestemployer, right. And so as a

(17:23):
result, you get blacklisted.
It's not like you leave acompany now and then the other
companies won't hire you andwhatever. What is your what is?
What are your goals? What youknow, I mean, the problem I've
seen with a lot of localactivism is they see so much
that they're sort of halffrozen, what where do we start?

(17:43):
So where? What are your goals onthe mitigating the effects of
the local oil and gas fields?
The future of it? What are youlooking for, and I will talk
later about transition there,just environmental justice
transition, which is a big, bigthing. But right now, when you

(18:04):
starting you and your group,what are you? Where do you pick
your targets? How do you pickyour targets? And what are your
goals? What do you think areyour realistic goals?

Kayley Shoup (18:14):
Um, so I would say citizens caring for the future
started out really passionateabout regulation, getting good
regulation and making sure thatregulation is enforced, we still
think it's very important tohave regulation, obviously, but
the state of enforcement issomething that we have realized,
you know, actual enforcementaction is not taken, you can

(18:34):
have some of the best oil andgas methane rules in the world
or in the country. And ifthey're not enforced, at the end
of the day, you still have theemissions, you're still
breathing in the air. And so, asI said, we still, we still
advocate for strong regulation,but enforcement, we understand

(18:57):
that regulation can only go sofar in slowing down what we're
seeing in the Permian. So a goalfor us is, especially in New
Mexico, specifically, theEnvironment Department and the
World Conservation division,they are chronically underfunded
by our legislature, despite thefact that we have, you know,

(19:17):
huge surpluses of money from theoil and gas industry here in New
Mexico. And so we're verypassionate about advocating that
they get more funding so thatthey're better able to do their
job. And then in terms of EPA,federal action, I don't know if
you heard the EPA was looking atdeclaring the Permian Basin and
non attainment zone based onhigh ozone levels, and this

(19:39):
would be West Texas and NewMexico. Texas has virtually no
regulation. And so it's veryimportant that there is more
regulation for New Mexico,folks.

Greg Williams (19:52):
I'm sorry, I just missed the term. You said the
EPA wanted to declare New Mexicosome kind of zone.

Kayley Shoup (19:58):
Yes, a non attainment zone. So, that is if
you have a certain level, acertain number of high ozone
days that you are consumed canbe declared a non attainment
zone. And if you are declared anon attainment zone, then all of
these kind of new regulationscome down on that area that they
then the state environmentdepartments would have to

(20:20):
enforce. So, a lot of your majorcities like Los Angeles
nonattainment zone, but you canmove in and out of that if it
gets corrected, you can move inand out of it. So they were
pushing to have the PermianBasin declared a non attainment
zone based on high ozone levelsin New Mexico, because just for
reference, we are in thelargest, most active oilfield in

(20:41):
the country. And in Texas, theydo not monitor ozone whatsoever.
So in New Mexico, we have twoair monitors in the area, the
whole of the Permian Basin. Andit is based off of that data,
but they were going to do a nonattainment zone. And the Biden
administration recently toldthem to hold off on that. And so
now they are holding off andputting it on the backburner and

(21:03):
not no longer declaring us a nonattainment zone as of now. So
suddenly, we're pushing istrying to find a way to expedite
that once again, because it's sonecessary.

Dina Rasor (21:14):
Did that happen?
Because of the fear of theUkrainian gas situation? Did it
happen around that time, becausethat's when I found a lot of
this falling by the wayside.
It's like, okay, we were gonnatry to be good about fossil
fuel. But hey, you're just gonnarun out of gas, and oil, but
they didn't, because the Russiawas gonna cut them off. And I'm

(21:37):
just wondering, because I just,I don't see why they're
backtracking when they have thepower.

Kayley Shoup (21:44):
So it's interesting, they actually
started to look at the nonattainment thing as an option
after the Ukraine war started, Ido think that has something to
do with it. Because of course,we're exporting a lot of our
gas, we're exporting a lot ofthat to Europe. And it's useful
to just be able to do that. Butthe Permian also, I think, is

(22:06):
unique in the fact that peoplefrom here are not really
speaking up, they're not sayingwe're concerned, there's really
no pushback when the federalgovernment goes and does
something like this and decidesto slow it down. And it's kind
of, you know, if you're on anadministration viewpoint, if
you're able to have oil and gas,make the money from it, while

(22:29):
also saying, Hey, I'm a ClimateChampion. And so in the case of
New Mexico, our governor, I'm aClimate Champion, and I have
these really strong regulations,I'm doing all of these great
things, I'm not enforcing it, myNGO, none of this is being
enforced. But I have all this onpaper, I can still profit from
the oil and gas industry, and noone in the Permian is speaking
up about the fact that, inreality, nothing has changed. I

(22:52):
think that also, that's moremicro on a macro level, the
national level, I think, thatsame paradigm exist. And the
Permian Basin, as I mentioned,lowest breakeven cost and
highest amount of untappedresources, this area's gotta
keep going until the last oiland gas wells shut down. And I
think there's a real awarenessof that, and the federal

(23:14):
government.

Greg Williams (23:16):
So I just wanted to clarify the notion of lowest
breakeven cost is importantbecause there are petroleum
deposits in all kinds of placesall over the world, but some of
them are very, very expensiveto, to operate in, like the
Canadian tar sands are a greatexample of a very dirty,

(23:36):
expensive, difficult place toextract petroleum. And so if you
have petroleum reserves, and youwant to derive revenue from
that, it's important to dobroadcast, the idea that it can
be done very inexpensively. Andthe more regulations that you
put on, you know, the more youtax operations in order to

(24:00):
improve the roads, or build newschools, or you know, all of the
things that would be required tosupport that level of economic
activity, all of those raise thethe breakeven cost, and so
there's a disincentive forgovernment to to impose those
costs because they're at thesame time trying to attract this
economic activity.

Dina Rasor (24:24):
Yeah, and, and one of the things I, you know, what
I found is that I had not heardthis word, until I started
really looking into this andit's kind of shocking, but
already heard it from thenorthern New Mexico group. There
is they call them sacrificezones. And it's, it's just

(24:46):
stunningly crude. Not crude oil,but crude, because when you
think about it, they'rebasically like saying, we're
going to sacrifice theenvironment here. And all the
people Will that live on it? Youknow, then and all the
reservation Indian reservations,too bad. And then all the oil

(25:08):
and gas workers but so it theybasically have just written this
off, they call it a superemitter to them they as another
one, but I just wondered aboutpart of the problem, of course,
is the culture and the fear oflosing your job and that kind of
stuff. But what is what is whatdo people say? I mean, there

(25:28):
must be oil workers and theirfamilies that are getting
cancer, because a lot of peopleare getting killed. And what do
they say about the fact thatthey're destroying where they
live for financial reasons. Iknow, there was a big, you know,
in Pennsylvania, that was a hugething when fracking came out,
because some people were like,oh, man, I'm gonna make money on
my farm, I haven't made money onmy farm for years. And other

(25:50):
people are like, you're notdoing that, because it's gonna
leak, get the water table leakover into mind. And so there was
always that stuff is still goingon. And I'm just wondering, I'm
wondering is, what would it takefor people to be able to speak
up because, or, you know, evenbe whistleblowers, or a silent
whistleblowers and contactpeople like me who work with

(26:12):
whistleblowers, to get this out?
So that you can, unless therestarts to be a public pressure,
it's very hard to change, isn'tit? Yeah,

Kayley Shoup (26:22):
100%, it's very hard to change without that
push. And I think people, youknow, they know that their
health is at risk, they seewhat's happening to the land,
but they don't, they don't haveanother option, you know,
there's not another job for themto go to, and there's nothing
else for them to do, as of now.
Now, in the future, there mightbe something else. But I think
that's kind of where peoplewhere they see it as it's this

(26:45):
runaway train. And I will say,in terms of the Permian, it is
very hard to, you know, find thewill to fight against all of
this in the Permian, because wehave the largest corporation,
some of the most profitableprofit, profitable corporations
on the planet, in ourcommunities, you know, working
with our local government,working with our county, working

(27:09):
with our city, giving to ourlocal schools, doing all these
things to keep, you know, goodstanding in the community. And,
and that's just as productionkeeps going, and going and
going. And it's affected by youknow, geopolitics, there's
things happening in othercountries, there's a war
happening. And because of that,production continues here. So I

(27:30):
think it's really important forpeople to speak up. But I will
say, in a place like thePermian, I think there's only so
far that it can go without, youknow, real action from people in
leadership positions. In termsof New Mexico, we have a lot of
oil and gas site on oil and gas,oil and gas sights on public

(27:51):
lands. We've caught on the Bidenadministration to for no new
leasing on federal lands, that'ssomething they've yet to do. So
until we have folks stepping inputting a stop to what we can
put a stop to. There's only sofar that I feel that things can
go and a New Mexico to Texas hasa very diversified economy, a

(28:15):
very strong economy with a lotof different industries that
helping to fund the state of NewMexico gets the majority of its
funding from oil and gas. And sothere is a real hesitancy to do
anything that could harm thatsource of funding that source of
income. And so we have a realyou no problem and a real

(28:36):
opportunity to diversify oureconomy and make sure that this
is something that folks can stepaway from can speak out against
but um, the Permian is, there'sa lot of levers in the Permian
that are geopolitical, and it'sa worldwide issue.

Dina Rasor (28:57):
Okay, so that kind of that really segues very well
into what we're talking aboutnow is because if you go around
and you see people got morecancer rates and stuff, Oh, they
got a bad diet, or, you know,they smoke and you know, there's
always that nonsense that goeson. And also, it's just
individuals hard to prove. Butif, if you're able to, you know,

(29:18):
start let's say, NASA reallydoes put up this database and
you really can you can sit thereand get download the pictures
and then overlay the wells, youknow, like they did and point of
the well that is just, you know,that's empirical evidence is
hard to disprove. They're goingto course say like they did with

(29:40):
this other one, the first onethey found there was all on our
well, you know, we don't thinkso and blah, blah, blah. And
they've got all the PR andeverything else, but enough of
enough of that persistentempirical mapping of finding
methane because it's a kind of atwofer. It's dangerous for your
health, and it's dangerous tothe health of The planet. So

(30:01):
you've, you know, so you've gotthe people who are worried about
environment, the environmentbeing destroyed and being sick.
And they also weren't. And thenpeople who were worried about,
you know, climate change. And sowhat, what, what how did you
find out? And whatever about theprogram? Did you find out from

(30:22):
the reporter that you werequoted from? Or did you know
about it? And what do you whatdo you guys think you're going
to do with this big possiblesatellite in the sky? type of
imaging Do you think that'llmake may help you start to make
your case?

Kayley Shoup (30:36):
Yeah, if I remember correctly, the reporter
didn't tell me and I was veryexcited, because as you said,
um, empirical evidence is huge.
And that's something that wedon't have a lot of in the
Permian monitoring. And that's,you know, showing people what's
happening, they can seepictures, they can see
measurements of what ishappening. So I found it very,
very exciting, that that'ssomething that's now an option.

(30:59):
It's definitely like a satellitethat can see, you know, large
swaths of land and stuff likethat, I think it's a great tool
for local community members, ifthey, you know, see something
near their home or somethinglike that, and want to check to
see if it's on the database, Ithink that's a really exciting
tool, because it is so hardwithout any of the equipment

(31:23):
that you need to prove thatsomething's going on. So you
could have a sight by yourhouse, and maybe you could smell
it, you could know something'swrong, but a lot of the time,
the environment department orsomething like that is gonna
blow you off, because you don'thave the evidence. And people
can't afford $100,000 camera,you know, to go look at this.

Dina Rasor (31:45):
So So you would be great, if you're new, they take
a series of pictures, and itshows the area that there's a
big methane leak, and they canshow the wind roses, where the
plumes are going, and you walkaround those neighborhoods and
say, did you know you know howdangerous methane is? It's so
dangerous that now they don'twant to use gas stoves, because

(32:05):
it gives cause asthma? Yeah. Doyou know that this is this
cloud, because it's invisible?
You know, it's not like, it'snot like the smoke that in
California, here we see fromfire, fires, we see it, we smell
what we taste it. And so withthat, that could be a tool that
you can use and say this isreal. This is a NASA satellite
and Veloz NASA, no one's gonnasay NASA is lying. And then that

(32:28):
kind of thing. And here it is.
And is that going to be useful?
And also, we talked about howexpensive the camera equipment
and in stuff like that, but isthere a are you guys thinking
like, like an earthworkssituation where local
communities could either throughfoundations or possibly even

(32:50):
through the federal government,get grants to buy that kind of
equipment? And to do that kindof monitoring?

Kayley Shoup (32:59):
Yeah, so to address like, your first
question, I think it'sdefinitely useful. And being
from NASA, too, because I'm withyou, people will take what NASA
says seriously, I think it'sdefinitely useful to say, look,
you know, this is happening inyour, in your backyard. Here's
the proof of it. I don't know,if agencies will then take the

(33:19):
action to enforce upon thesepolluters, you know, to enforce
fines, to make them clean it up.
I know, the NASA thing, nothinghas been done on that yet. And
they're actually still havingtrouble pinpointing what company
it is. I think it could be agreat tool, if our agencies
actually then take enforcementaction, the EPA has done
flyovers of our area for years.

(33:43):
And you know, they'll find like20 Super emitting sites, and it
will be in litigation for aboutthree years. And I believe last
time this happened, like two outof 19, polluters actually got
fined. And it's like minisculefines. So I think it's really
useful to show to people in thelocal community. But I also
struggle, because when you're inthe local community, and you

(34:04):
learn about these things, it'sabsolutely terrifying. And that,
you know, you have all this oiland gas infrastructure around
you that you know, is harmingyour health, these huge
companies that have huge bottomlines or have shareholders, some
of the biggest companies in theworld, you know, this is
happening, how do you take themon and just, it can be quite

(34:28):
overwhelming. And if you'reenforcement agencies, the
environmental agencies aren'tdoing their jobs. It kind of
feel makes you feel like you'rein a very hard place and like
you said, you get paralyzed. Andso we're always constantly
trying to tow that line, figureout how to actually help people.
One thing that we're doingcurrently, is we have an air

(34:52):
purifier program, and folks thatlive within a half mile radius
of an oil and gas site can reachout to us and get a clinically
proven Arabic You're a fire fortheir home because this people
need it, they need help. Now inorder to not get sick. Something
else is a priority for us andthe state, we would like to see
a statewide setback in NewMexico. Right now there is no

(35:14):
statewide standard, we want tomake sure that these places are
at least 3200 feet away fromschools and homes. So at the
NASA thing, as a tool forsomething like setback show into
legislators, you know, this ishappening, this is how this harm
is invaluable, and really,really exciting that we now have
those tools.

Dina Rasor (35:33):
But then the other way to go is, I know this from
years of fighting the Pentagon,you know, you you're just
beating your head against thewall with the officials because
they don't want to take on thePentagon and say they're commies
and you know, people say thecommies and all this kind of
stuff. But what about you know,one of the things I worked a lot
on it was bringing thisinformation to the press, and

(35:56):
getting community people to talkto the press, even if it's
anonymously. Is it hard to getreporters down there in care
you? Are you in sort of anisolated area where it's hard to
get people to come down there.
And but if you had a wholedatabase of this kind of
pollution, and you know, youcould walk the reporters around

(36:17):
and say, you know, you'restanding in it right now, kind
of thing, do you think and I'mon a more national scale,
because I found that that reallyrattles local politicians and
national politicians. It's kindof the Erin Brockovich thing.
You've finally you know, theylitigated it, but obviously, it
helped that there was publicity.

(36:40):
And you know, once, once it getsthere sort of a tipping point,
they they're scared to do itscared to do it. The politicians
don't want to get in trouble andeverything, but then they
finally realize this is gettingembarrassing. And, you know, and
same with the the people whowere supposed to be enforcing
the rules. Is there? Is there alack of reporting down in your

(37:02):
area? Do you think? Um,

Kayley Shoup (37:04):
I think there was, and I think it's getting a lot
better. In the state, wedefinitely have a lot of
coverage. And at our local paperhere in Carlsbad, we have a
great reporter that is on thisbeat, and constantly doing work.
And also on the state level, wehave some really great
journalists that are doingwonderful work now are they it's
hard for them to get down here.
Sometimes they have definitelyvisited. But they're always you

(37:26):
know, reaching out wanting toget a perspective from frontline
groups. And we have somenational we could do more,
though.

Greg Williams (37:39):
So one thing that I know it was a big surprise to
me, is a mechanism for goingafter polluters that I don't
think Dina and I had ever heardof or considered. We're both
familiar with something calledkey tam or false claims. Suits
where you say, private,corporate corporation or

(38:02):
individual is defrauding thegovernment. And you bring this
allegation to the government andif the government chooses to
pursue it. And if they succeedin recovering funds from that,
from the person perpetrating thefraud, the person who brought it
to their attention gets a smallpercentage of that. But if the

(38:22):
government even declines to tofurther investigate and
prosecute the case, theindividual can then do so on
their own. Now, Dina, and Ilearned about this when we were
studying the way, privatecompanies would often claim that
weapons performed better thanthey actually do, you know,
submarines that are launchedwithout the ability to fire

(38:43):
torpedoes and things like that.
But this other guests namedPoppy Alexander, who was with us
back in July, described atechnique where you, you look at
a polluter that may be makingESG claims, you know,
environmental, social, andgovernance claims. And if you
can, if you can prove that thoseclaims are false, but even

(39:08):
partially false, you can thentake that case to the Securities
and Exchange Commission. And theidea is that the SEC security
Securities and ExchangeCommission is responsible for
making sure that the privateshareholders are not being
defrauded. And so suddenly, youknow, you can, you can

(39:35):
demonstrate that a significantpart of a company's market
capitalization comes from theirESG claims, and if you can, if
you can prove that they'refraudulent, you can recover, you
know, in some cases, billions ofdollars. And so, I encourage you
and any of our listeners to goback and listen to that episode

(39:55):
with with poppy Alexander

Dina Rasor (40:00):
It's Poppy Alexander for from Constantine cannon. And
yeah, this is really a bigthing. We were like, Oh, wow,
because I've worked, I helpedget the the key tam law passed
back in 1986. And I've been andI spent 1520 years of my of my
career working on it was able toreturn in the usual way, show

(40:21):
him that they aren't doing thejob, or they're breaking the
contract and all that kind ofstuff. And you know, my business
partner and I at the time we wehelped to return 200 220 million
I've been 200 million back tothe Treasury. I always say
that's like one day of toiletpaper in the Pentagon though.

(40:41):
But But what I really Whatreally surprised me with her,
and by the way, I have workedwith that law firm. So anybody
who has wants to contact me Ihave, I can come and and do you
what you're doing and you sign acontract. And this is really
important. There's all theseenvironmental things you have to

(41:02):
do. So the hard thing is to tryto prove Oh, this thing hurt
this environmental thing. Andthis and they bring in all their
experts and say it's not and youknow, and you go back. And it's
it's that long, drawn out legalthing where you know, it's
almost like a medical case whereyou have the one doctor says
this, and another doctor saysthat and experts and on and on.

(41:23):
But what she was telling us isthat with the SEC thing, all you
got to do is show that all thoseclauses that are put in federal
contracts, or state contracts,that they have environmental
things they have to do,everybody has to do whether
you're making cars, or you're oryou know, it doesn't have to do

(41:46):
that you're what you're makingcars wrecks of environment. It's
your your process. Are youfollowing all the the rules and
regulations, environmental laws.
So you don't have to prove thepollution fraud, you just have
to prove they're not doing theenvironmental things that they
have promised to do to get themoney and federal contracts. And
I don't think New Mexico has astate law like that, like

(42:12):
California does. But it's withthe SEC, it's a it's a it's a
sec whistleblower program. And Iwas like when she was telling me
that even though we had talkedto him before the buckets is
kind of sitting up saying, Oh,my God, this is one of the ways
that so you get you get anylawyer or anybody you're working
with, pour through theircontracts, and you find out that

(42:33):
they're supposed to have thiskind of mitigation, when they do
this kind of thing. And they'rejust letting it go down the
drain or whatever. And youshould and you can show not you
know, it's hard to show airpollution. But you can show take
pictures, everything else. Oh,well, according to the EPA. In
your contract, you're supposedto do this, and you have not.

(42:55):
And you reported that you did toyour stockholders, you're in
trouble. And with a good lawyer,you know, and it's a lot faster
than

Kayley Shoup (43:06):
it sounds like,

Dina Rasor (43:07):
yeah, and the point is, you don't have to prove you
don't have to prove thepollution, all you have to do is
prove that they're not enforcingthe environmental laws. Yeah,
every contract has environmentallaws. So you're looking at an
environmental problem you'regetting away from, you're
worried that you can't provethat problem, all you have to do
is prove they're not doingenvironmental laws, and the SEC

(43:28):
will go after, and they reallycare if the SEC goes after him.
That scares me. That scares me.

Greg Williams (43:34):
Yeah, so I like to be very, very careful when I
give anything that soundsremotely like legal advice. My
recollection is that we'retalking about two different
mechanisms. One is where acompany sells something, you
know, maybe school lunches ortablecloths, you know, could be
just about anything. And that intheir contract includes standard

(43:57):
clauses that require them tofollow certain laws and
regulations. And if they don't,and if you can prove that they
don't, then you can recover theentire value of the school
lunches or the tablecloth, andin fact, up to three times that
amount. So that's one mechanism.
The other mechanism, which iseven more powerful, is simply
demonstrating that they have notmade good on their ESG claims,

(44:21):
their environment, socialjustice and governance claims.
In that case, you canpotentially recover three times
the value of any gain in theirmarket capitalization and you
know, the total value of theirstock. And so, you know, these
are two very powerfulmechanisms, you know, both in

(44:42):
terms of the amount of money atstake and in terms of the
opportunity to prove fraudwithout having to prove harm
based on the

Kayley Shoup (44:54):
the pollution Yeah, which can be

Greg Williams (44:57):
absolutely do not take my word or my understanding

Kayley Shoup (45:00):
Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go look
into it, that's what's gonnahappen.

Dina Rasor (45:05):
Now what we can, what we can do is in on, this
goes out to any app, anyactivists and stuff. This is a
new theory, it's a new theoryand a new way to go after them.
I happen to know, some of thetop partners in that law firm,
I've actually consulted for themin the past. And so it's a
different set of law. It's someit's a law I haven't actually

(45:26):
worked on. But if anybody wantsto anybody wants to contact us
at climate money, watchdog.org.
And, you know, our call, call usor, you know, Greg has a whole
thing on how to call andeverything, so they can't trace
and all that kind of stuff.

(45:47):
Contact us, we will, we canlisten and see what they have to
say. And then we can go to thoselawyers and say, Is this a case?
And you know, and they'relooking, they're looking for
cases, and we we are trying tofind ways, because going after
oil companies is I already knowis bad. They also like to do

(46:08):
slap suits back, but on you, andeverything else. But these
lawyers, these lawyers have aresome of the best at at key Tam
and sec. in the country. Andthey're really good. And they
don't exploit whistleblowers andstuff. So whistleblowers are
sources. And so we they know howto do it right, so that you

(46:30):
don't ruin your life. Yeah, soanyway, anybody wants to contact
us, and we would be more thanhappy to work with you, if you
find anything like that. So youneed to start thinking about
looking at the contracts. Allthe contracts, Exxon, Chevron,
everybody has for this frackingor for oil and gas, drilling,

(46:51):
and whatever, and start lookingat those environmental rules
that you know, just the theregular environmental rules that
are in every federal contract.
So in the end, then you saidthe, the, the public lands, you
know, they're they're leasing onpublic lands, that's federal
land, okay. And so I am surethere are pages and pages and
pages of environmental thingsthey're supposed to do, even if

(47:13):
you don't, aren't doing, youknow, if you weren't even doing
things that hurt theenvironment, you'd still have to
do these environmental things.
And that's a place for and maybeGreg and I should write an
article on this. That's a placethat where you can start people
can start looking. And there'sgood lawyers to do that. And
it's so it's faster, it doesn'ttake years and years and years.

(47:35):
Like yeah, like a key tam casestake? I have. So yeah, it's
pretty new. It's pretty new. AndI'm and I'm also normal I can, I
can talk like a lawyer and keytam laws, because I've had my
hands on the patients for years.
But I this one I know. But Ihave, we have very good lawyers
that would be willing to look atit with us. So that's this is

(47:58):
why think the same way the NASA,this big NASA thing, you know,
which is big, and it's great andeverything, but you got to bring
it down to the grassroots, youknow, each neighborhood, you
basically have to do this kindof war neighborhood by
neighborhood by neighborhood,because in general, taking on
big oil, taking on big defensecompanies, those kind of things,

(48:21):
you have to get the peopleinvolved and ticked off. And so
and so that's I'm glad Greg,Greg brought that up. So that's
one of the things that we wantto talk about that maybe you and
in some of the other groups thatwould that would really get the
attention by the way of thepoliticians, and the politicians

(48:42):
and the local people andeverybody else, because the
other part is you get apercentage of the money. You
can't count on that, you know,but I think I've made for people
millionaires through key tamsuits. I had a lot of people but
not not quite many, though. Someof them became millionaires,

(49:06):
because they the percentageswere so high. And you can
imagine the size of thecontracts for the public land
use must be huge. Must be Yeah.
Yeah. Huge. Okay. Well, good.
That's great. I'm glad we wentthrough that because this is
exactly what I'm trying to do.

(49:26):
I'm trying to get there aretools out there. And you know,
everyone's like write yourcongressman. Yeah, you know, now
you write a letter to theCongressman the the the actual
snail mail letter, they don'tsee it for months, because
they're checking it for anthrax,you know? Or they get a lot of
the emails, they just didn'traise them. So this is the kind
of thing that could really keptcapture. It's funny when you get

(49:47):
that kind of litigation going.
And you get the SEC, peopledon't people are scared of the
SEC because they can really giveyou grief about your process.
And that's all they care about.
So, okay, great. That's, that'syeah. Okay, so um, so I've

(50:10):
already got already asked thatquestion. But does your
community have any plans to usenew federal climate money to
transition to clean energy,which is a big thing in the
clean energy jobs, they havewhat they call environmental
justice grants, because they'renow and I been sent I've been

(50:31):
sending to other activists inNew Mexico, there are now the do
E and and EPA, especially EPAare actually the asking groups
to send in proposals for them togive nonprofit groups money to

(50:53):
help on the environmentaltransition. And so if this was
like Maine, it would be sick.
Let's all go solar. Well, youknow, but New Mexico? Solar.
Yeah. So is there any I know,that's northern New Mexico,
they're looking at that. But isthere any efforts at all or
anyone talking about? We have toget shut down, start shutting

(51:18):
down fossil fuel? Everybodyknows it. Everybody's trying to
delay it, the Ukrainian war goteverybody off of oh, we can't do
it right now. Can't do it rightnow. And we're running out of
time. And so I think that oncethat, eventually, it'll start a
tipping point. And are you areyou guys thinking about applying

(51:40):
for that kind of thing, orworking on that kind of thing,
to bring renewable energy?

Kayley Shoup (51:49):
Yeah, so as a really small group, you know, we
don't have the capacity tonecessarily apply for those
grants ourselves. We are tryingto connect people and inform
people in this area, that thoseopportunities are there and that
they exist, when you see such ahuge influx influx of federal
dollars, as we're seeing now. Itcan really go to the people that

(52:10):
are in the know, and the largermunicipalities and stuff like
that. And so we're trying tomake sure to work closely with
our partners in northern NewMexico, to make sure that folks
down here are also aware of theopportunities and that they're
they are in the game, in termsof, you know, local government
and stuff, making sure that theyget some of this funding. It's a
struggle here. In the Permian.
As I mentioned, obviously, we'regoing to be one of the oil

(52:33):
basins, it's going until thebitter end. And we have a lot of
huge consulting firms that workvery closely with our local
government places like FTI,consulting all of these
different things. So that reallykeeps people from thinking and
having this forward looking wayof thinking, but we are working
hard to make sure that we keepfolks attuned to what the

(52:53):
opportunities are, what grantsthey can get to, you know, do
renewable energy projects. Andthen also, another big thing is
protecting the land that wehave, so that if we do want to
put a solar farm up, we do wantto put a wind farm up right now
we're quickly running out ofspace to do that here in
southeastern New Mexico, eventhough we're great candidates

(53:14):
for that. So it's, it's a bit ofa multi pronged approach. But
yes, we are trying to make surethat we see some of those
dollars and get some projectsoff the ground here.

Dina Rasor (53:27):
And some of the people who I know this is
happening in Ohio, and theydon't want big these big solar
farms, because they're liketaking farmland out of use. And
now they're actually finding outthat that you can grow crops in
between, you leave the tractorswith weight, and you can grow

(53:48):
crops, especially out in placesthat are really arid, you can
grow crops under the solarpanels, and the solar panels
actually give them more shade.
So you use less water and it'smore vigorous planting. And so
you could go to a farmer andsay, you know, we only need
every other row kind of thing.

(54:10):
And so that's the kind of thingand then of course wind is you
know, there's all this sillinessbut I don't know about the wind
situation in New Mexico but isit is it

Kayley Shoup (54:20):
me could happen with wind farms here too, in
this region as well.

Dina Rasor (54:25):
So there was a real there's been a real weariness
about taking hold evading landthat you're going to use and put
solar panels on it. But they'rethey're not really changing that
they're really changing it sothat it actually in very, very
intense heat areas as it getshotter and hotter. You can grow

(54:45):
more plants under the solarpanels because they get some sun
but they don't get fried. And ofcourse you've got the water
problem. So yeah, there's a lotof innovative stuff. The other
thing I wanted to say is thisenvironment Well, this
environmental problem is thesocial justice, environmental

(55:08):
problems, environmental justice.
That is a very hot topic inWashington right now, you know,
I always find these things go,in fact, adds this just like,
like clothing, and everythingelse. But right now, they want
to fund local people totransition. And they don't want
it to, they don't want it to goto the big people that usually

(55:31):
skip skim off the top. Andthere'll be all those pressures
to do so. But they want to beable to go to some small town
with TV cameras in tow and say,Look, I really did go to the
middle of Appalachia, and wealready you know, I really, we
really did change this town. Soyou you sound like you're in a
really good situation there to,to do that. So I will send you

(55:53):
I'll send you this the thingsI've taught asking for credit
requests for proposals andstuff, I don't think it's going
to be very complicated, becausethey know the small groups don't
have the consultants to do bigthings, ya know? Exactly.

Greg Williams (56:13):
Well, we've really enjoyed speaking with you
this evening, Isaiah, is thereanything else that you would
hope to cover tonight with us?

Kayley Shoup (56:21):
Not off the top of my head. Thank you guys so much
for this conversation and forgiving me the opportunity to
talk a little bit about the workwe do?

Greg Williams (56:28):
Well, it seems like, go ahead, Deena.

Dina Rasor (56:31):
Yeah, I was gonna say that's do my usual pitch. We
have been trying to educatepeople through podcasts and you
know, do our own start here. Butwe really are going to be once
there's enough money spent, itwas a lawyer organization. And
that is one of the you know,using either lawsuits or helping
teaching people how to talk toreporters how to protect

(56:53):
themselves, that whole kind ofthing, because that's how you
really get this information out.
So anybody who start seeing thesomething that's not going on,
or if you're very intrigued withthis whole SEC thing, go to our
podcast on Poppy Alexander, andfrom Constantine Canyon, and
listen to that, and call me andI call or email me and I will, I

(57:15):
will help figure out what youthat you have and present it to
them and get you together withthem. So I'm putting this play
out at the every in the pockets,the money is going out. Now it's
going out fast, when we firststarted the money hunting past.
So now it's going and now yougotta wait, let the fraud build

(57:36):
up a little bit before peoplestart reporting it. But I think
we've pointed out, you know, howlocal activist groups can have
much more power doing that kindof stuff. And I also want to say
nationally, there is a majoreasing in the New York Times
Washington Post, and everybodyelse is taking their climate.

(57:58):
You know, they had like two orthree people on climate and
they're quadrupling it. Sothere's gonna be a lot of
reporters sitting out there,especially young, hungry
reporters who have a travelbudget, sitting out there
saying, you know, all these oldtimers are doing this, where can
I make my mark, so there's goingto be a real interest. And I've,
I was trained as a reporter. Andso anybody who wants to cook

(58:21):
sometimes it's sometimes it's alittle dangerous to approach a
reporter when you don't knowwhat you're doing. Because
they're kind of like, they'rekind of like, get you in like
the Moonies, you know, we wantto get you to sign off, like a
call, because they want you totell everything but aren't so
concerned about your protection.

(58:43):
And I know exactly how to do itwith reporters, and when they
are in the best reporters. SoI'm going to start looking at
that new group of reporters thatare coming in. And if you guys
have stopped if people havestories, you know, start writing
and starting as and I will be, Iwill be happy to be late.
liaison between. That's great.

Greg Williams (59:06):
So, the other thing I like to say at the end
of each one of theseconversations is that it's our
hope that this is the beginningof our listeners interest in
understanding of these topics.
And so in order to facilitatethat, I hope that if there are
any links to information thatyou would like us to include,
along with the podcast summary,just let us know. Our intention

(59:28):
is that people listen to thesethings. And then they start
learning more about it on theirown.

Dina Rasor (59:35):
And if you want to be like Kaylee, and come on and
tell your story, let us knowbecause we are not we're we're
trying to do top down and bottomup. We're trying to do both,
because I don't think it's Idon't think we're going to be
able to do this transitionwithout that kind of pressure
from both sides. I

Greg Williams (59:52):
think you're exactly right. All right. Well,
thanks again, Kaylee. We hope tosee you again soon.

Dina Rasor (59:59):
Yeah, thank you.
Call us if Call us if you haveanything new pop up for sure