August 23, 2023 • 52 mins
Our guest this episode is Erandi Trevino of Public Citizen, Houston. Erandi grew up in Houston and has been concerned about the pollution in her neighborhood since she was a young child.
Before joining Public Citizen in Houston as a Climate Policy and Outreach Specialist, she was an Advocacy Fellow with the Fulbright Association in Washington, DC, where she worked on education policy, nutrition, and financial regulations. During her time in DC, Erandi also volunteered for the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute.
Earlier in her career, Erandi assisted the Permanent Representative of Mexico to the United Nations in New York. She has a law degree from Fordham University and degrees in International Relations and Latin American studies from Seton Hall University. Following her graduation there, she received a Fulbright Grant to teach English in Belo Horizonte, Brazil where she became fluent in Portuguese.
In this episode we discuss the following topics:
- The coalition of companies and other institutions that are partners with this new project called the HyVelocity Hub and their claims to be able to build an “ecosystem” from the existing hydrogen and pipeline industry in Houston to make clean hydrogen.
- HyVelocity Hub claims that they will be able use carbon capture to make “clean” hydrogen (called blue hydrogen) using existing hydrogen production plants.
- How credible is Houston’s Clean Hydrogen Roadmap in general?
- Is HyVelocity’s goal of achieving 2kg CO2 / kg of H2 is realistic?
- RMI currently estimates 20 kg CO2 / kg H2 with Texas’s current fossil-heavy power grid.
- How credible is HyVelocity’s vision “to serve disadvantaged communities by providing jobs and higher labor standards, reducing local pollution, and supporting and complying with the Justice40 initiative?
- Who are the powerful investors in this endeavor and how are they affecting the plans for these plants? Are they listening to local concerns or just greenwashing their environmental challenges?
- What is Public Citizen doing as a local activist to get some oversight on this HyVelocity Hub project?
Resources:
Houston Healthy Port Communities Coalition
Environmental Defense Fund - Better Hubs - Expring Decarbonizing Industry
Greater Houston Port Bureau's Project 11
On Breath Partnership's "What is Port Houston's Project 11?"
Visit us at climatemoneywatchdog.org!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gregory A. Williams (00:10):
Thanks for joining us for another episode
of climate money watchdog wherewe investigate and report on how
federal dollars are being spenton mitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please
(00:31):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and consider making adonation. My name is Greg
Williams, and I learned toinvestigate and report on waste,
fraud and abuse in federalspending. While working at the
project on government oversight,or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned
to do independent research aswell as to work with
(00:51):
confidential informants, orwhistleblowers to uncover things
like overpriced spare parts likethe infamous $435 hammers, and
expensive military weaponssystems that didn't work as
advertised. I was taught by myco host Dean eraser, who founded
Pogo in 1981, and foundedclimate money watchdog with me
(01:13):
last year, Dina has spent 40years investigating and
sometimes recovering millions ofdollars wasted by the Defense
Department and other branches ofgovernment at Pogo, as an
independent journalist, as anauthor and as a professional
investigator. Our guest tonightis Randy Trevino of Public
(01:33):
Citizen Houston. And Andrei grewup in Houston and has been
concerned about the pollution inher neighborhood since she was a
young child before joiningpublic citizen and as a Climate
Policy and Outreach Specialist.
She was an advocacy fellow withthe Fulbright Association in
Washington DC, where she workedon Education Policy, nutrition
and financial regulations. Alsoduring her time in DC at andI
(01:55):
volunteered for theCongressional Hispanic Caucus
Institute. Earlier in her careerat andI asst the Permanent
Representative of Mexico to theUnited Nations in New York. She
has a law degree from FordhamUniversity and degrees in
international relations andLatin American Studies from
Seton Hall University. Andfollowing her graduation there,
(02:18):
she received a Fulbright grantto teach English in Belo
Horizonte, Brazil, where shealso became fluent in
Portuguese. Deena, is thereanything else you'd like to
share about why we're excited tohave Randy with us?
Dina Rasor (02:34):
Well, we are starting, we're very excited to
have her in specific because shelives in one of the great got to
be a little crude about thisissue, a fossil fuel test for
malaria, a sacrifice stone, asthey call it, you know, which
was one of the more stunningthings that when I started
(02:58):
getting into climate, and theguy said, Well, we're in a
sacrifice was on me. And so, butwe're also starting the thing
where we're going to startworking with local activist
groups, we are working on bigissues, big databases, and you
know, tax credits and all thingsand big but I feel very strongly
(03:19):
that the people on the groundknow what's going on. And when
you're working with fake thingsin within the power elite, and
the main media stuff, a lot oftimes everybody just sort of
talk to each other too much. Andthey all start believing in each
other's lives. And, orgreenwashing or whatever you
(03:41):
want to call it politely. And sowe are trying to reach out to
local activists. And we've been,if you go back into our podcasts
we've already done to otherpeople, that are local
activists, and was really happyto have a Rondi Public Citizen,
(04:02):
which has got a incredibly longhistory of public citizen
basically started when I was incollege. It's been around a
long, long time. So anyway, justas we were asking about please,
you know, help us support us.
And one of the ways if youcan't, you know, help support us
financially. We are welcomingactivists to come in, bring us
(04:24):
their stories. And we will giveyou advice and help you as much
as possible and helping withyour with your investigations,
but also taking your issue up tothe national level so that it's
become you get out of yourneighborhood. And so I'm urging
people to do that and once forthe activists that how much are
(04:51):
we going to owe you? Nothing,that we raise our own money? And
that's what that's part of ourour public serve as climate
watchdog to make sure that themoney is spent well. And the
technology isn't something fromlast word and weird kind of, you
know, some of the some of thesethings like carbon capture, and
(05:16):
get a little surreal after awhile. And so that's so all you
activists out there hitting onour website, send me send me an
email. And we'll be happy to gettalking with you. So that's,
that's what I got a few words tosay before we start questions.
And so around you, do you haveanything to add to your
(05:38):
introduction or your background,and congratulations for becoming
a lawyer. And
Erandi Trevino (05:48):
thank you so much, Tina, I appreciate you and
Gregory for having me on today.
As you mentioned, you know, I dolive in a sacrifice zone. And so
I find that that does providepeople in my community, a very
sort of particular perspectivethat other people don't really
have to live through in otherparts of the country. So I'm
(06:10):
always happy to, to talk aboutthese topics and try to figure
out, you know, what's a betterway forward for us?
Dina Rasor (06:21):
Okay, well, that kind of segues into my first
question, which I will ask itbecause I asked you about it.
Tell us about your upbringing,what inspired you to do this oil
and gas stuff? But you said,Well, you know, we grew up in
sacrifice. So why don't you justdescribe to us? Who uses that
term? And why it seems thatterm? And what it really means?
Erandi Trevino (06:44):
Yeah, the the term is usually, as you alluded
to, before, it's used in theenvironmental justice world. So
when we talk about environmentaljustice, it often goes together
with the term sacrifice zone. Soa sacrifice zone sort of
describes what the issue ofenvironmental justice is at its
(07:05):
core, which means that there arecertain sectors of the
population certain people,people who are typically low
income people of color, peoplewho are maybe immigrants are
typically in sections that aretaken advantage of dumped on.
And really, the term sacrificecomes from, from the fact that,
(07:28):
yes, these are certaincommunities that are getting the
worst part of the effects. Buteverybody else is benefiting
from it, right? So everybody'sbenefiting from energy from us
having energy sources, gasoline,being able to power our homes,
being able to power ourvehicles, etc, etc, etc. So all
those benefits right are sort ofshared around the country. But
(07:51):
the, the results and like this,the consequences of this
production and of this likevoracious production that just
wants to keep on growing. It'sour communities, the communities
are in the sacrifices are beingsacrificed for the benefit of
everybody else.
Dina Rasor (08:13):
What was it like to grow up in one of the did you
have childhood illnesses andthings like that from?
Erandi Trevino (08:19):
Yes, yes. So my story is a little bit. It's
common in the area that where Igrew up in here in Houston,
because like many people in theEast End, which is where I first
landed in Houston, it's alanding pad for a lot of
immigrants. And so my mom and I,and my little sister, that's
(08:42):
where we first arrived when wecame from Mexico when I was
seven. And when I lived inMexico, I lived in places that
had a lot of pollution. So Ilived in Monterey first, and
really in a place where there'sa lot of industry, production of
all types. They produce, youknow, electrical, like items and
(09:05):
food, etc. But there's just alot of pollution. And then the
second place we lived in was acoal mining town. So it just so
happened that I was sort ofbeing exposed and exposed. And
when we landed in the East End,where again, we moved to a
different country, um, that initself is not really an easy
move. But then we land somewherewhere we're being exposed to
(09:26):
toxic chemicals on a regularbasis. So yeah, I had stomach
aches and headaches and bodyaches and just different type of
discomfort but all the time,right, it was chronic. These
were chronic issues that I washaving. There were times where I
would have a migraine for fourweeks at a time nonstop wake up
(09:49):
with one called sleep with oneor again the upset stomach. Now
I'm sort of able to identifywhen an upset stomach is because
I ate something that wasn't goodfor it. or it's because there's
something in the air that'supsetting my stomach, because
I'm breathing it in, and I'mswallowing and it's all landing
in my tummy. And if that sameday, everybody else around me or
(10:10):
my nieces and someone else isalso having a stomach ache, I
can make that connection of oh,it's because the environmental
impacts are having an effect.
And so even recently, I had aconversation with a friend, best
friend, my one of my bestfriends from fifth grade, who
also lived within two miles ofthe ship channel, and went to
school within two miles of theship channel. And I was talking
to her about these issues withstomach aches, and you know, the
(10:33):
effects on children. Andimmediately, she tells me, I
used to have stomach aches allthe time as a kid. And this
isn't uncommon, but peoplearen't having those
conversations on a regularbasis. Because to be quite
frank, like people don't like totalk about, you know, illnesses.
And I mean, people don't like tohear about it. So people sort
(10:54):
of, you know, for me growing upwith health issues, I'd be so
eager to learn, you don't reallytalk about it as much. But when
you don't talk about it, thenthose connections are missed.
And we'll start to see, oh, weneed to start speaking up
against the fact that all ourkids are getting sick, or we're
all getting really bogged downfrom this.
Gregory A. Williams (11:15):
Yeah, I want to point out for listeners
who have never been to Houstondon't don't know who's in his
like Houston is a big city, it's20 or 30 miles across, it
doesn't have the same kind ofzoning laws that most other
metropolitan areas in the UnitedStates have. And so there's lots
of intermingling betweenresidential, commercial and
(11:37):
retail spaces. And then theshipping channel that Hyundai
has been describing sort of goesall the way from, let's say, the
three o'clock position almost tothe center of the city, it's
depending on how you measure it20 or 30 miles long. And it's
surrounded on both sides by hugetank farms and other industrial
(11:58):
facilities that are involved inthe refinement of
petrochemicals. Yeah, I've
Erandi Trevino (12:05):
actually heard of a the length of 52 miles
long, it's a really longchannel, and then it's wide at
certain points. So it covers alot of territory, it means that
a lot of communities areimpacted, which means that
that's those are morecommunities that are not only
impacted, but also sort ofisolated from each other,
(12:25):
because industry is embedded inbetween them. So that's a
challenge that presents achallenge to organizing each
other. Right. So being able toorganize with each other,
because if you count the entiremetropolitan area of Houston,
that's 7 million people. Right?
And then if we bring it downjust to the ship channel, it's
really long. So again, theimpacts and being able to
(12:45):
connect with all those peopleand advocate together, it's it's
a challenge. It's notimpossible. I think it's
completely like, I truly believeit's doable, but that's why I do
this work. But that distance,the fact that it does cover so
much land is a big, big barrierfor us.
Dina Rasor (13:07):
So
Gregory A. Williams (13:11):
I was gonna ask around it, tell us about the
coalition of companies and otherinstitutions that form the high
velocity hubs and what theirambitions are for the Houston
area in the hydrogen industry.
Erandi Trevino (13:25):
Yeah, so the high velocity fund is made up of
different energy leadingcompanies. So companies that are
already working in the energyfield, perhaps already working
with hydrogen, and they'reapplying to be a USD US
Department of Energy, regionalclean hydrogen hub, which would
(13:47):
help essentially fund acceleratethe development of clean
hydrogen projects in Texas andthe rest of the Gulf in the US.
And so really, what this meansis, these companies that include
Chevron, they include theSenator for Houston's future.
(14:07):
These are all the foundingmember members. And what they
want to do is they want to takeadvantage of these federal funds
that are available right now,through the infrastructure act,
and through the what is it i j.
A and Ira sold through the twoacts that are bringing in a lot
of federal money right now. Andso this high velocity hub, but
(14:29):
what take advantage of some ofthese funds to create more
infrastructure or sort ofcapitalize on the existing
infrastructure in Houston andadd to it and make it bigger and
produce more energy? And sothere's, I mean, whenever I meet
with, I mean, I meet withdifferent agencies and I meet
(14:49):
with different leaders here inHouston and the when you said
the ambition right there truereally is great ambition in the
area to just keep growing. Andto me, it brings me honestly
panic on a personal level,because I'm already at my wit's
end a lot of times because ofwhatever spill is in the air,
(15:13):
and whatever extra flaring isgoing on down, you know, down on
the ship channel, whatever otherissues, and I cannot even fathom
what it would be like if we keepadding to it, and not only
adding to it, but exponentiallygrowing the way that they want
to grow. And so the highvelocity fund is once one of
these initiatives that arewanting to expand and take
(15:34):
advantage of federal dollars,and keep growing something that
in theory is for the benefit ofthe environment. But
realistically the amount ofenergy that it takes to produce
and the risk that it bringsadditional risks of spills and
leakages. It's just, again, assomeone who lives here, I can
(15:54):
tell you, we're on our last legas a community, meaning we've
had so many pressures placed onus. social, financial,
educational, you know, because Imean, HSD, for example, is a
total disaster right now it'sbeing taken over by Austin by by
the state government. And soeverything is sort of like
(16:19):
piling on to the communities ontop of them plus the recession.
So everything that everyone elseis feeling right financially,
right now, all those pressuresare being felt even more. And
then you add, for example, thecommunity that's right next door
to me, there's an 18 Wheelerparking lot right next door to
my house, that scent that thatcensus, like square from that
(16:41):
line onward, has an over 50%rate of COPD, more than 50% of
the people living there haveCOPD, which is upper
respiratory, like lungcondition. And so again, when
you have 50%, COPD, when youhave kids having asthma, asthma
attacks, and they're having tomiss school, missing grades,
(17:03):
right having to be held backbecause they're missing school
because they can't breathe. Wecan't take anymore. And so I
don't understand that's myprimary concern with this, you
know, with this ambition ofexpanding, expanding, expanding,
it's like, you know, where peacealive and they're just trying to
get every last bit of it out ofour community. But it's time for
(17:26):
us to say no, we can't besacrificed anymore.
Gregory A. Williams (17:33):
So just quickly, COPD is chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease.
So it's the kind of chroniccondition that can actually
cause you to die in your sleep.
It's what people use CPAPmachines for, for example. So
(17:55):
let's let me play devil'sadvocate for a moment. So why
wouldn't it be better for thatbig parking lot full of semi
trailers to be burning hydrogenfuel instead of diesel fuel? All
of a sudden? And to what extentis their vision in encompass
that?
Erandi Trevino (18:14):
Yeah. If it was all of a sudden, and we just had
hydrogen available? Hopefullyyou let's say, green hydrogen
available, then yes, right. Andit wasn't produced necessarily
in my backyard, then, okay. Butthe problem is that we, there's
infrastructure that still needsto be added, for them to create
(18:36):
this additional hydrogen. Andthen that hydrogen needs to be
created here in this area, whichproduces greater emissions in
the area, the production, thedeconstruction of the
infrastructure producesemissions, and the production of
the of the hydrogen does notonly that hydrogen, because
because of its size, becauseit's so finite, it's prone to
(18:59):
leakages. And so we're in aplace that already has high
levels of accidents ofincidences that happen at
industry at these facilities. Soyou have explosions, fires,
leakages, etc. So we're alreadyused to seeing that we know that
that's sort of like thestandard, right. And in Texas,
(19:21):
there's a one to 3% enforcementrate, one to 3% of the time.
Yeah. And so when you have a oneto 3% enforcement rate, it's
like my nine year old knee said,I mean, why follow the rules,
right? You would just bet on notever getting in trouble and hope
for the best. And so when wealready have that type of
(19:44):
situation going on here inHouston, how can a community
say, Oh, yes, I trust thisindustry, to create even more of
a risk in our community when wealready know that the
responsibilities they've beenhanded. They they're not Not
able to
Dina Rasor (20:01):
honor. Okay, well that that really segues right
in, because this is what what alot of people don't realize, you
know, they say hydrogen, oh,it's clean energy. Well, it
depends on what kind of hydrogenand they're, they're playing a
game on you with colors. Andright now, my understanding what
(20:29):
they're planning to do isthey're planning to put in so
they can make blue hydrogensnow, which blue hydrogen is
still made with, with, withpetrochemicals and fossil fuel.
And, you know, probably naturalgas and stuff. And so it's still
adding carbon in themanufacturing in, it's not, it's
(20:52):
not a clean, it's not clean,it's not renewable. And yet,
they talk about it about it. Oh,it's not like that terrible
weather, either called gray orbrown hydrogen, which is really
dirty, because it was used to bethat the process was really
dirty with. They weren't eventrying to lower the carbon, and
whatever. But what we're goingto do blue hydrogen, blue
(21:13):
hydrogen, sounds good, you know.
And they said, boom, we're goingto do that. And we're going to
have this carbon capture wherewe capture the co2 out of the
smokestack, and then they have apipeline to the co2 to take it
somewhere variant. And then youwrite the f7 pipelines for the
hydrogen. And so this ballthing, and then they they, you
(21:36):
know, in the proposal andreading along, yeah, yeah. And
then ultimately, if up, but inthe future, we're going to make
green hydrogen, or greenhydrogen is what you are, you
would want to do want to dobecause it's done by
electrolysis, and it splitswater into hydrogen and oxygen.
And so it doesn't. And if youmake when you do that, as
(22:00):
hydrologist, you use renewableenergy, when solar, whatever.
And so that the only hydrogenthat really does not make the
carbon that much worse, is greenhydrogen is still controversial
that people arguing aboutwhether or not that but they
say, whenever somebody likecompany tells the government,
(22:23):
first we're going to start outwith semi dirty and then we're
going to get better in thefuture, we'll finally be, you
know, perfect. They're countingon people like Iran, they didn't
go away, and forget that theysaid that, and just, you know,
what was the sacrifice? Right.
So I love but I wanted to askyou, do you think this coalition
(22:48):
sir, eventually moving to greenhydrogen, when they create the
infrastructure?
Erandi Trevino (22:55):
Well, as history is any indicator, I would say,
again, they don't deserve ourtrust, they don't deserve the
trust of the community. BecauseI mean, I'm gonna have to do
this has inspired me to do adeeper dive into each member of
the hivelocity. Hub. But thefact that for example, Chevron
(23:19):
is a part of it is already a redflag for me. And I granted you
need current industry to beinvolved in in the evolution out
of, you know, what is it ourdependency on these dirty
sources of energy, right? Sothey do need to be part of this
(23:39):
movement, but first to justtrust in what industry does.
There's no way because they'veproven here in Texas, at least
that if they can get away withit, or if the law allows it to
even if it is damaging tosomeone in the community. It
does. They still break the law,right? If it's more convenient
(23:59):
if it's more cost effective. Sountil we see a different pattern
from industry, there's no reasonfor us to just say, Yes, we
trust you.
Dina Rasor (24:10):
Yeah, I would say that
Gregory A. Williams (24:13):
the the, the high velocity of is already
tipped, it's and if you if youread their material carefully,
they sort of lay out thetimeline they have in mind and I
want to read an extended quotethat I think captures most of
it. So quote, while electrolysisbased technologies will continue
to scale through 2050. In otherwords, they're not going to be
(24:35):
doing things mostly throughelectrolysis for another 25 or
30 years. So continuing thequote, natural bet natural gas
based pathways will likelyrepresent a significant portion
of hydrogen production. In otherwords, they're going to continue
to bake dirty hydrogen. So,again, continuing with the
(24:56):
quote, as such, Texas would needsignificant carbon storage as it
transitions into a hydrogen hubin 2035, you know, 12 years from
now, the state could produceeight mega tons per annum of
hydrogen, assuming. And again,these are their words, assuming
(25:19):
that 70 to 90% of thisproduction is natural gas based,
Texas would have to storeanother 45 to 55 megatons of
co2, based on its era with CCSat a 98% capture rate. So they
(25:39):
are, they're betting this wholeprogram on continuing to produce
hydrogen with, with gas. Andthey're betting it all in the
success of of carbon capture andstorage.
Dina Rasor (25:59):
There are always these
Erandi Trevino (26:02):
sort of like the guarantee is made, right, or
there's this promise made. Butreally, there are all these ifs
and buts that need to happen,all these other things that need
to happen first, for that tohappen for that to actually be
the result. Or like the samething, the same red flag pops
into my head, whenever I hearwell, we need to scale it up to
really see the benefits, theenvironmental benefits and scale
(26:24):
it up. Again, this is somethingthat we've seen doesn't work in
the past. And so as you werementioning, even there, even
their plan says that for another20 something years, they would
still be using dirty hydrogen.
Gregory A. Williams (26:41):
And even then, the benefits of
electrolysis don't even comeinto play until you have a clean
electric grid. So the one to twokilograms of co2 per kilogram of
of hydrogen, you don't reachthat end, by the way, that's an
explicit target of highvelocities to get down to one,
(27:03):
one to two kilograms of co2 perper kilogram of hydrogen, you
don't get there until you have acompletely create a clean
electric grid. And recent studyby the Rocky Mountain Institute
calculated that if you were todo all of all electrolysis in in
Texas, are all hydrogenproduction via electrolysis.
(27:28):
Based on the the the fossil fuelheavy electric grid, they have
their it would be 20 kilogramsof co2 per kilogram of, of
hydrogen. So I was sort ofsurprised, I was expecting to at
least see a roadmap to that oneto two kilograms of co2 to, to
(27:53):
kilogram of of carbon, and itjust it doesn't seem to be in
there.
Dina Rasor (27:59):
Go ahead. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's I, I alwaysget, you know, I I've been
around long enough and thesekinds of things, and the defense
partner does the same thing withtheir weapons. You know, they
say, Oh, I it doesn't reallywork on the battlefield now. But
you know, we expect in fiveyears to fix that, and 10 years
(28:21):
from fix that, but you got tokeep giving us money. And they
can make it greenwashing is avery similar to what a lot of
other people do in the federalgovernment. But basically, it's
basically they're telling youhow green it's going to be in
the future. But like, what Gregjust brought up is that even in
(28:41):
the green version, they've gotthese hidden carbon thing. And I
sort of rag on this almost everypodcast because I want people to
start thinking about it. Youknow, people get me, oh, it's
carbon capture, direct capture.
(29:02):
There's this there's that, youknow, and I'd say now, you know,
Bill McKibben, who's a famousenvironmentalist who's been
doing climate change for a longtime. And we had him on, and he
had an article in The AtlanticMonthly. And then the title of
(29:24):
the article, I actually told himI want to use it for a bumper
sticker because no, they usebumper stickers, the thing of
your job and opportunity andthat kind of thing. He says
basically, and in light of whathappened, why today it is. Just
emphasize it's he says, Theearth is on fire, stop burning
(29:49):
thing. Full stop. And this isexactly the kind of thing. The
thing is we're gonna we're gonnastarted out something but we're
still burning things that wouldbe natural gas, you know, and
everything else. But somedaywhen we go into AWS, we're going
(30:09):
to find, we're going to do thisby electrostatic and oh, you
know, everything will bebeautiful and wonderful and
everything else. Oh, but I guesswe didn't tell you that the grid
is also going to use up the co2.
So if you're in letting out co2and stuff, and some burning
thing, okay, you're stillburning things. And we twice
(30:30):
have had on a really greatprofessor from Stanford. Now,
I'm renewing Jacobson, Dr.
Jacobson, Mark Z. And he, hesays, We can do the whole thing
without any of the fossil fuel,and any of these, or nuclear or
(30:51):
anything else. That is, youknow, not just putting renewable
energy, we can do it. And he'slooked at 145 countries. But I
always say this, who the onesthe listeners, probably
listeners know more aboutclimate change than I do. But I
understand about propaganda. AndI just wish I want to every
(31:12):
activist at every meeting, say,what do you do to stop burning
thing? What do you mean? Well,your MO, we got carbon capture,
we capture 98%, that's neverheard anybody making risk
capturing 88%. You know, they,they say it's this amount, and
there's so many 23%, loaderlower and everything else. So
(31:35):
having that stuff burn capturingit, transporting it through a
bunch of pipelines, transportingyou have to transfer now you
have transfer the hydrogen andthe co2 through pipelines, and
then take the take the co2 andput it back into the earth,
which it could also leak, youknow, that's not worth that
(31:56):
burning. In other words, that'snot a solution to burn. It's not
going to make it easier, but itis going to make it easier for
them to justify continuing notgoing completely clean energy.
So that's my little soapboxhere. So that everybody who is
an activist or you know, in yourarea and stuff, look up Vulcans
(32:17):
article and put that quote inyour head when he can stop
burning thing, every project,when are you going to stop
burning things? When does theco2 to go away? When does the
when does the natural gas waveaway? Where's the coal go away?
When the bio waste go away? Youknow, oh, by the way, see that
(32:38):
sounds ecological, you know,and, but it's burning something.
And I thought that from thatpoint on, every time I open up
and look at a new project likethis one, I'm like, Okay. When
are we going to, when or whenis, you know, I've lost the hub.
(33:00):
They're so excited about it. Andthen you wait, when are they
going to stop? Really? When arethey going to stop? So I wanted
to get your opinion on that.
Randy, too, would like to speakfirst?
Gregory A. Williams (33:14):
Oh, no, I'm sorry. I wanted to say Dina and
I are doing a lot of talking, wehaven't given you much of an
opportunity to tell us aboutwhat public citizen is doing.
Dina Rasor (33:23):
Yeah, well, that's my big thing now.
Erandi Trevino (33:26):
Yeah. So well, my role at Public Citizen is
primarily to work with thehealthy work communities
coalition. So I manage theCoalition, a coalition of
different organizations that arelocated around the Houston Ship
Channel. And so they're allworking on some of them specify
(33:46):
on water, or specialize inwater, some of them specialize
in, in air, others on thiscommunity outreach and support,
etc, etc. So they're all sort ofdoing something different in the
area. And the coalition is a wayfor us to come together and
really advocate for those basicthings that we all agree our
(34:08):
community needs. And so one ofthe things that we're working on
through the coalition is tryingto influence what type of grants
the Port of Houston applies to.
Because since a lot of thesefederal grants are IGA in the
IRA, the baker grants, the onesthat are millions and millions
of dollars have to be matchedfrom whoever is applying that
(34:31):
means that the only ones who areeligible to apply are going to
be agencies such as the Port ofHouston or maybe even coalition
such as like the high velocitythought hub. And so just
Dina Rasor (34:49):
go ahead. I was gonna have you built I was going
to have you go into the nextstep of, of telling us what
you're doing What you guys areplanning to do on this and what
he what you have done to themhow they have reacted. And then
what you what your plans are inthe future on this type
specifically on your highvelocity.
Erandi Trevino (35:13):
Yeah, specifically on high velocity
hub, what we're trying to do isdiscourage the Port of Houston
from using their applications,their grant applications to sort
of advocate for this type ofwork, or to contribute to this
work. And so every time that agrant comes up right now that
we've been working with theport, what we're trying to do is
(35:37):
discourage them from doing that.
But unfortunately, the poor likemany other agencies, like many
other industry, they are supersold, right? They're bought,
they drink the Kool Aid, thehydrogen Kool Aid,
unfortunately, and so we'retrying to our job right now is
to sort of convince themotherwise. But as you were
(35:57):
mentioning before, thatpropaganda is really strong. The
propaganda here from oil and gasand petrochemical industry in
Houston has existed for decades.
Right. Now we we're reaching apoint where I truly believe our
community sees clearly what'sgoing on, right, clearly sees
(36:21):
that they're being sacrificedclearly sees that Sure. Does the
poor provide jobs? Does itprovide some financial stability
for the city short, yes. Andeven some pregnant financial
mobility from people who I grewup with, right from fellow
immigrants. So they've been ableto become financially mobile
(36:43):
because of being part of theindustry. However, again, when
people keep getting sick all thetime, and your kids keep getting
sick all the time. And it'ssmelled outside. And now people
are starting to talk about theair and you see the haze in the
distance, it becomes a lotharder to sort of bite into that
(37:05):
propaganda. And not only that,going back to your, the quote on
the earth is on fire, stopburning things. Not only is the
earth on fire, but this is oneof the like, the starting ground
zeroes of where the fire iscoming from. And so really,
that's why to me, it's justunconscionable to add any more
(37:28):
to a place that already has thethis is where the fire is coming
from. And in this area, right.
And in the country. I mean, wehave, we have some of the most
environmentally vulnerablecommunities in the entire
country. In some cases, the toppoint 1% most vulnerable, around
me, top 5%. All right, still outof the entire country. Right. So
(37:49):
we need to start putting the outthe fire here first. That way,
it'll help dissipate everythingelse.
Gregory A. Williams (38:00):
So what kinds of grants do you encourage
the poor to apply for?
Erandi Trevino (38:05):
So we're trying to really also explain the
importance of justice 40 to thePort of Houston. So trying to
get them to sort of buy into thefact that 40% of the whatever
they're applying for, shouldeither go directly toward
projects that are around thecommunities most affected, or at
(38:26):
least 40% of the benefits shouldgo to those communities, right?
Whether it's money amount of 40%or 40% of the benefits either
way, we're trying to reallyencourage the fact that these
federal funds are meant to atleast in large part 40% benefit
communities, frontlinecommunities, or in other words,
sacrifice sacrifice zones. Andso we're trying to get them to
(38:51):
apply for things like electricelectrification technology,
right? Charging stations,applying for electric, whatever
other technological like forexample, electrical freight,
right, any type of electricalequipment that they can use,
(39:12):
that can reduce emissions in theareas around the port, which are
the areas most affected here.
That's what we want them to do.
So really, it's case by caseright now. But the main thing
that we're focusing on is makingsure that they're, again,
accepting the fact that 40%should benefit these communities
and applying for projects thatwill reflect that directly.
(39:37):
Right. And so we're still sortof struggling with that part. I
think we have made some headway.
However. The perception is stilloftentimes, while we're applying
for these funds, this is ourmoney. Right? And no, it's
federal money, federal moneythat is meant to benefit
everyone. The grant They'remeant to be taken out by groups
(40:00):
that can help that process movealong, right, like contractors,
etc. But
Dina Rasor (40:09):
that's what it's for. That's
Erandi Trevino (40:10):
the that was the intention. Right? Like the
President. Yes. Go ahead,please. Yeah.
Dina Rasor (40:16):
Oh, well, yeah. No, I didn't mean never a few. But
I'm just at one of the ask you.
This is what the IRA fundingsays should happen? Do you see
it? You know, we're Clementmoney watchdog, and we're always
watching. Do you see any effortsor it from the DOA to watch
this, to make sure that it'sreally going to this 40% that
(40:40):
they are, you know, by thestatue are supposed to do? Have
you seen? And when is the DoDthere for you? Or any of the
other parts of the DOA or, ortransportation or whoever's
doing the grid? And, you know,in that case, are they there for
you to make? Is there anybody inthe federal government standing
(41:03):
there saying to make sure thatmoney is going to the sack
people who've already made thesacrifice?
Gregory A. Williams (41:12):
Yeah, just to emphasize that the, you know,
I was intrigued to see that thehigh velocities, literature
itself emphasizes the justice 40initiative. And and I was going
to ask if that gave you anopportunity to, to ask them to,
you know, show you, you know,show me the money, you know,
show me the the 40% benefit thatyou're delivering with these
projects,
Dina Rasor (41:32):
and works the federal money cop making sure
that that's what you're doing.
Yeah, so.
Erandi Trevino (41:42):
So both things.
First of all, talk about theDepartment of Energy, the
Department of Energy has beenopen to talking to community
groups. I know, a couple of ourcommunity partners have spoken
with the Department of Energydirectly to talk about issues
running just this 40 andchallenges around it. Because
I'm not sure if well, so thatlanguage around justice 40 was
(42:05):
switched at some point. Becauseof I think it was a fear of a
lawsuit. Essentially, instead ofseeing that 40%. Child go to the
communities, it was somethinglike can go to the communities
anyway. It's sort of like,decrease the level of like, what
(42:25):
that come from? Sorry, I'm like,
Dina Rasor (42:32):
certainly increase the certainty of where it's
supposed to go. They put a firein this escape hatch.
Erandi Trevino (42:41):
Yeah, exactly.
And so right now we're trying tofigure out, okay, so now what,
right, the intent of this lawwas to benefit these
communities, the intent of thislaw was to move our energy
transition forward. So wheredoes that leave us? Right. And
so we're, we're having thoseconversations with the
Department of Energy, and eventhe Department of Transportation
(43:02):
for some other types of grants.
And so they have been receptive.
It's just, you know, things somove very quickly. Especially
with, with agencies. And so, alot of times, it seems like
we're having the sameconversations multiple times,
(43:22):
and sort of trying to switch theway we sort of frame things to
make sure that the people we'respeaking to the agencies, for
example, are understanding quitethe level of suffering we're at,
in my community, because that'swhat I that's how I feel. Like,
that's our reality, in thesacrifice zones. It's a real,
(43:45):
it's a reality of sometimesfeeling, like the effects from
your external environment,things that you cannot control,
or torture, right, because, forexample, random things that
happen as an effect from fromdirty air, for example, my mom
and I both have chronicinflammation. And sometimes our
(44:06):
hand hurts so much, we can't useit. We can't use our hands. Or
sometimes we have suchdifficulty breathing, we can't
do anything. And so what doesthat do? We're creating people
who are, you know, who arephysically less capable, and
therefore, less likely to beable to be successful, less
(44:27):
likely to, you know, be able toovercome these things that are
again health related, which tome is like the worst thing that
can happen to a person, right?
People say, health is wealth.
Well, in my community, we don'thave health. Overall, we don't
have it again, me, as I amhypersensitive physically,
because I already have allthese. I've been exposed to
(44:49):
pollution my entire life to highconcentrations of it. So now I
have a series of chronicconditions that are made worse
by environmental factors. Ders.
And so whenever those aretriggered, and if they're
triggered, let's say every daythat week, or every day, that
month, eventually it becomeslike torture. And again, it's
(45:10):
not okay for our community tabto live our reality, it's not
okay for us to have to gothrough life with one hand tied
behind our back, because ourhealth is affected.
Dina Rasor (45:23):
In other words, you are, you're you've lived it, you
don't want it to, you've livedit, you've done the sacrifice,
you don't want to have to do anymore sacrifice for another
generation.
Erandi Trevino (45:34):
I don't want to sacrifice myself, and I don't
want my community to have to dothat sacrifice. Because I know
that I feel it. Just because Ifeel it more in my body doesn't
mean that it's only affectingme. Because if everybody's
breathing it, it's damaging allof our bodies. So one reason why
cancer is so common in ourcommunity. cancer, asthma,
(45:59):
chronic inflammation, all theseother issues that are not as
prevalent in other communities.
Dina Rasor (46:04):
And when you go, yeah, sorry to interrupt you,
but when when the governmentkind of does the slow roll on
you and stuff that you say, youknow, they aren't speeding up,
or the climate speeding up.
That's what I keep tellingpeople, we can't make money
mistakes. And we got to move thecan't square out the usual round
(46:25):
and round and round governmentmeetings and whatever. It the
earth is on fire. And it's, andyou're breathing it.
Erandi Trevino (46:37):
Yeah. And what the government loves to do is
what I found out is passing thebuck, right? It's not us, it's
them. And then you go to them.
It's not them, it's the others.
And so it's always just mebouncing it back and forth,
bouncing the responsibility backand forth. And eventually what I
try to also tell them is we allhave to be responsible for this
Dina Rasor (46:58):
is all our home. We all have to act.
Gregory A. Williams (47:02):
So is there a set of milestones or gates
through which the the the highvelocity hub project has to pass
through? What What would youencourage our listeners to be
looking for and watching in thecoming six to 12 months? And
what plans do you in publiccitizen have to to intervene in
those milestones?
Erandi Trevino (47:24):
Yeah, so what I encourage people to pay
attention to is, well, it'ssometimes it's hard, but there
are some websites that keeptrack of the applications of of
which of like the hubs that areapplying. And so for example,
one of our partners, theEnvironmental Defense Fund has a
(47:45):
website that they can go to,which is a place to explore
potential hydrogen hubs. And soit's a compilation of different
hydrogen hub applications thathave come up. And so it's an
easier way for people to see ifany of those applications have
come up in their state. And thenthey can look further into see
(48:05):
if it's, you know, even closerto their homes. Because if they
are in a place that'spotentially affected, what they
can do is send letters directlyto the Department of Energy,
saying, you know, one thingthat's very, very powerful,
again, is simply writing aletter from behalf not simply
but writing a letter from behalfof community groups that can all
(48:27):
support it and saying, you know,we disapprove of this project,
for these reasons, right, andexplaining the situation at the
community and just saying whythey oppose it. So to have
community groups directly opposean application is very powerful.
It does have an effect, at leastaccording to, again, the
(48:48):
agencies that we've beenspeaking to.
Gregory A. Williams (48:51):
Alright, so we'll definitely want to get the
URL for that website to includein the description of this, this
particular podcast episode.
Other things that we should bewatching for in the next six to
12 months that, that yourorganization is doing?
Erandi Trevino (49:07):
Yeah, so our organization is going to be
trying to work on increasingcommunity outreach. Thankfully,
there there is some opportunityto grow our capacity here
locally. And so what we want todo is that is connect with
community and to be able to havethose conversations, because a
lot of times industries takeadvantage of the fact that some
(49:30):
of our communities aren'ttalking to each other. And
again, going back to the factthat Houston doesn't have zoning
laws, and a lot of ourcommunities are sort of divided
up between industry or you haveindustry embedded in the in the
neighborhood. So it kind ofcreates this isolation between
the neighborhoods. So we'regoing to try to create ways to
(49:51):
facilitate those conversationswithin the community. Because I
truly believe that again, mycommunity is ready to have I'm
sort of confront these issues,to attend permit hearings to
speak up to write letters, justto make sure that both the
government and these applicantsand all that we're watching that
we are also paying attention towhat they're doing. And and
(50:16):
hopefully that that encouragesalso applicants firm to do a
better job, if they know thatpeople are watching and able,
and willing to speak up.
Gregory A. Williams (50:29):
Any other advice or calls to action you'd
like to leave our listeners withtonight?
Erandi Trevino (50:35):
Well, if they would like to find out more
about the Healthy portcommunities coalition or public
citizen, I definitely inviteeveryone to, to go to our
websites. And just if you wantto become involved and have some
questions about what do you do,if you want to become
environmentally involved in itlocally or in your state, but
(50:57):
have questions about it? Youknow, please reach out to us,
we'd be happy to sort of explainwhat are all the options and how
do we, how do we create that,that strong voice together? All
right, well,
Gregory A. Williams (51:12):
it's been inspiring to have you here
tonight. And we certainly wantto keep in touch, because
hivelocity has a long way to go.
And we hope that you willcontinue your work to try to
keep them on target and focus onproducing healthier communities.
Any final words from you, Dina?
Dina Rasor (51:33):
No, except for like I said, go to her website,
especially if you feel likeyou're living in a sacrifice
zone, go to the go to herwebsite and watch see what
public citizens doing? And youknow, go to the databases and
look up your area, because whenyou go to the databases, and you
have actual documentation, youcan show up at a meeting then
they don't, then they're justnot going to treat. You're just
(51:56):
a tree hugger now, I guess, youknow, yes, back. So we really
admire what you're doing. And weknow that it's hard, and it's
personal. And it's not justpersonal because your health,
what you're trying to do foryour community. So we are very
interested in seeing how much wecan...
Erandi Trevino (52:12):
Thank you somuch. Thank you
Thanks for joining us for another episode
of climate money watchdog wherewe investigate and report on how
federal dollars are being spenton mitigating climate change and
protecting the environment. Weare a private, nonpartisan
nonprofit organization that doesnot accept advertisers or
sponsors. So we can only do thiswork with your support. Please
(00:31):
visit us at climate moneywatchdog.org To learn more about
us and consider making adonation. My name is Greg
Williams, and I learned toinvestigate and report on waste,
fraud and abuse in federalspending. While working at the
project on government oversight,or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned
to do independent research aswell as to work with
(00:51):
confidential informants, orwhistleblowers to uncover things
like overpriced spare parts likethe infamous $435 hammers, and
expensive military weaponssystems that didn't work as
advertised. I was taught by myco host Dean eraser, who founded
Pogo in 1981, and foundedclimate money watchdog with me
(01:13):
last year, Dina has spent 40years investigating and
sometimes recovering millions ofdollars wasted by the Defense
Department and other branches ofgovernment at Pogo, as an
independent journalist, as anauthor and as a professional
investigator. Our guest tonightis Randy Trevino of Public
(01:33):
Citizen Houston. And Andrei grewup in Houston and has been
concerned about the pollution inher neighborhood since she was a
young child before joiningpublic citizen and as a Climate
Policy and Outreach Specialist.
She was an advocacy fellow withthe Fulbright Association in
Washington DC, where she workedon Education Policy, nutrition
and financial regulations. Alsoduring her time in DC at andI
(01:55):
volunteered for theCongressional Hispanic Caucus
Institute. Earlier in her careerat andI asst the Permanent
Representative of Mexico to theUnited Nations in New York. She
has a law degree from FordhamUniversity and degrees in
international relations andLatin American Studies from
Seton Hall University. Andfollowing her graduation there,
(02:18):
she received a Fulbright grantto teach English in Belo
Horizonte, Brazil, where shealso became fluent in
Portuguese. Deena, is thereanything else you'd like to
share about why we're excited tohave Randy with us?
Dina Rasor (02:34):
Well, we are starting, we're very excited to
have her in specific because shelives in one of the great got to
be a little crude about thisissue, a fossil fuel test for
malaria, a sacrifice stone, asthey call it, you know, which
was one of the more stunningthings that when I started
(02:58):
getting into climate, and theguy said, Well, we're in a
sacrifice was on me. And so, butwe're also starting the thing
where we're going to startworking with local activist
groups, we are working on bigissues, big databases, and you
know, tax credits and all thingsand big but I feel very strongly
(03:19):
that the people on the groundknow what's going on. And when
you're working with fake thingsin within the power elite, and
the main media stuff, a lot oftimes everybody just sort of
talk to each other too much. Andthey all start believing in each
other's lives. And, orgreenwashing or whatever you
(03:41):
want to call it politely. And sowe are trying to reach out to
local activists. And we've been,if you go back into our podcasts
we've already done to otherpeople, that are local
activists, and was really happyto have a Rondi Public Citizen,
(04:02):
which has got a incredibly longhistory of public citizen
basically started when I was incollege. It's been around a
long, long time. So anyway, justas we were asking about please,
you know, help us support us.
And one of the ways if youcan't, you know, help support us
financially. We are welcomingactivists to come in, bring us
(04:24):
their stories. And we will giveyou advice and help you as much
as possible and helping withyour with your investigations,
but also taking your issue up tothe national level so that it's
become you get out of yourneighborhood. And so I'm urging
people to do that and once forthe activists that how much are
(04:51):
we going to owe you? Nothing,that we raise our own money? And
that's what that's part of ourour public serve as climate
watchdog to make sure that themoney is spent well. And the
technology isn't something fromlast word and weird kind of, you
know, some of the some of thesethings like carbon capture, and
(05:16):
get a little surreal after awhile. And so that's so all you
activists out there hitting onour website, send me send me an
email. And we'll be happy to gettalking with you. So that's,
that's what I got a few words tosay before we start questions.
And so around you, do you haveanything to add to your
(05:38):
introduction or your background,and congratulations for becoming
a lawyer. And
Erandi Trevino (05:48):
thank you so much, Tina, I appreciate you and
Gregory for having me on today.
As you mentioned, you know, I dolive in a sacrifice zone. And so
I find that that does providepeople in my community, a very
sort of particular perspectivethat other people don't really
have to live through in otherparts of the country. So I'm
(06:10):
always happy to, to talk aboutthese topics and try to figure
out, you know, what's a betterway forward for us?
Dina Rasor (06:21):
Okay, well, that kind of segues into my first
question, which I will ask itbecause I asked you about it.
Tell us about your upbringing,what inspired you to do this oil
and gas stuff? But you said,Well, you know, we grew up in
sacrifice. So why don't you justdescribe to us? Who uses that
term? And why it seems thatterm? And what it really means?
Erandi Trevino (06:44):
Yeah, the the term is usually, as you alluded
to, before, it's used in theenvironmental justice world. So
when we talk about environmentaljustice, it often goes together
with the term sacrifice zone. Soa sacrifice zone sort of
describes what the issue ofenvironmental justice is at its
(07:05):
core, which means that there arecertain sectors of the
population certain people,people who are typically low
income people of color, peoplewho are maybe immigrants are
typically in sections that aretaken advantage of dumped on.
And really, the term sacrificecomes from, from the fact that,
(07:28):
yes, these are certaincommunities that are getting the
worst part of the effects. Buteverybody else is benefiting
from it, right? So everybody'sbenefiting from energy from us
having energy sources, gasoline,being able to power our homes,
being able to power ourvehicles, etc, etc, etc. So all
those benefits right are sort ofshared around the country. But
(07:51):
the, the results and like this,the consequences of this
production and of this likevoracious production that just
wants to keep on growing. It'sour communities, the communities
are in the sacrifices are beingsacrificed for the benefit of
everybody else.
Dina Rasor (08:13):
What was it like to grow up in one of the did you
have childhood illnesses andthings like that from?
Erandi Trevino (08:19):
Yes, yes. So my story is a little bit. It's
common in the area that where Igrew up in here in Houston,
because like many people in theEast End, which is where I first
landed in Houston, it's alanding pad for a lot of
immigrants. And so my mom and I,and my little sister, that's
(08:42):
where we first arrived when wecame from Mexico when I was
seven. And when I lived inMexico, I lived in places that
had a lot of pollution. So Ilived in Monterey first, and
really in a place where there'sa lot of industry, production of
all types. They produce, youknow, electrical, like items and
(09:05):
food, etc. But there's just alot of pollution. And then the
second place we lived in was acoal mining town. So it just so
happened that I was sort ofbeing exposed and exposed. And
when we landed in the East End,where again, we moved to a
different country, um, that initself is not really an easy
move. But then we land somewherewhere we're being exposed to
(09:26):
toxic chemicals on a regularbasis. So yeah, I had stomach
aches and headaches and bodyaches and just different type of
discomfort but all the time,right, it was chronic. These
were chronic issues that I washaving. There were times where I
would have a migraine for fourweeks at a time nonstop wake up
(09:49):
with one called sleep with oneor again the upset stomach. Now
I'm sort of able to identifywhen an upset stomach is because
I ate something that wasn't goodfor it. or it's because there's
something in the air that'supsetting my stomach, because
I'm breathing it in, and I'mswallowing and it's all landing
in my tummy. And if that sameday, everybody else around me or
(10:10):
my nieces and someone else isalso having a stomach ache, I
can make that connection of oh,it's because the environmental
impacts are having an effect.
And so even recently, I had aconversation with a friend, best
friend, my one of my bestfriends from fifth grade, who
also lived within two miles ofthe ship channel, and went to
school within two miles of theship channel. And I was talking
to her about these issues withstomach aches, and you know, the
(10:33):
effects on children. Andimmediately, she tells me, I
used to have stomach aches allthe time as a kid. And this
isn't uncommon, but peoplearen't having those
conversations on a regularbasis. Because to be quite
frank, like people don't like totalk about, you know, illnesses.
And I mean, people don't like tohear about it. So people sort
(10:54):
of, you know, for me growing upwith health issues, I'd be so
eager to learn, you don't reallytalk about it as much. But when
you don't talk about it, thenthose connections are missed.
And we'll start to see, oh, weneed to start speaking up
against the fact that all ourkids are getting sick, or we're
all getting really bogged downfrom this.
Gregory A. Williams (11:15):
Yeah, I want to point out for listeners
who have never been to Houstondon't don't know who's in his
like Houston is a big city, it's20 or 30 miles across, it
doesn't have the same kind ofzoning laws that most other
metropolitan areas in the UnitedStates have. And so there's lots
of intermingling betweenresidential, commercial and
(11:37):
retail spaces. And then theshipping channel that Hyundai
has been describing sort of goesall the way from, let's say, the
three o'clock position almost tothe center of the city, it's
depending on how you measure it20 or 30 miles long. And it's
surrounded on both sides by hugetank farms and other industrial
(11:58):
facilities that are involved inthe refinement of
petrochemicals. Yeah, I've
Erandi Trevino (12:05):
actually heard of a the length of 52 miles
long, it's a really longchannel, and then it's wide at
certain points. So it covers alot of territory, it means that
a lot of communities areimpacted, which means that
that's those are morecommunities that are not only
impacted, but also sort ofisolated from each other,
(12:25):
because industry is embedded inbetween them. So that's a
challenge that presents achallenge to organizing each
other. Right. So being able toorganize with each other,
because if you count the entiremetropolitan area of Houston,
that's 7 million people. Right?
And then if we bring it downjust to the ship channel, it's
really long. So again, theimpacts and being able to
(12:45):
connect with all those peopleand advocate together, it's it's
a challenge. It's notimpossible. I think it's
completely like, I truly believeit's doable, but that's why I do
this work. But that distance,the fact that it does cover so
much land is a big, big barrierfor us.
Dina Rasor (13:07):
So
Gregory A. Williams (13:11):
I was gonna ask around it, tell us about the
coalition of companies and otherinstitutions that form the high
velocity hubs and what theirambitions are for the Houston
area in the hydrogen industry.
Erandi Trevino (13:25):
Yeah, so the high velocity fund is made up of
different energy leadingcompanies. So companies that are
already working in the energyfield, perhaps already working
with hydrogen, and they'reapplying to be a USD US
Department of Energy, regionalclean hydrogen hub, which would
(13:47):
help essentially fund acceleratethe development of clean
hydrogen projects in Texas andthe rest of the Gulf in the US.
And so really, what this meansis, these companies that include
Chevron, they include theSenator for Houston's future.
(14:07):
These are all the foundingmember members. And what they
want to do is they want to takeadvantage of these federal funds
that are available right now,through the infrastructure act,
and through the what is it i j.
A and Ira sold through the twoacts that are bringing in a lot
of federal money right now. Andso this high velocity hub, but
(14:29):
what take advantage of some ofthese funds to create more
infrastructure or sort ofcapitalize on the existing
infrastructure in Houston andadd to it and make it bigger and
produce more energy? And sothere's, I mean, whenever I meet
with, I mean, I meet withdifferent agencies and I meet
(14:49):
with different leaders here inHouston and the when you said
the ambition right there truereally is great ambition in the
area to just keep growing. Andto me, it brings me honestly
panic on a personal level,because I'm already at my wit's
end a lot of times because ofwhatever spill is in the air,
(15:13):
and whatever extra flaring isgoing on down, you know, down on
the ship channel, whatever otherissues, and I cannot even fathom
what it would be like if we keepadding to it, and not only
adding to it, but exponentiallygrowing the way that they want
to grow. And so the highvelocity fund is once one of
these initiatives that arewanting to expand and take
(15:34):
advantage of federal dollars,and keep growing something that
in theory is for the benefit ofthe environment. But
realistically the amount ofenergy that it takes to produce
and the risk that it bringsadditional risks of spills and
leakages. It's just, again, assomeone who lives here, I can
(15:54):
tell you, we're on our last legas a community, meaning we've
had so many pressures placed onus. social, financial,
educational, you know, because Imean, HSD, for example, is a
total disaster right now it'sbeing taken over by Austin by by
the state government. And soeverything is sort of like
(16:19):
piling on to the communities ontop of them plus the recession.
So everything that everyone elseis feeling right financially,
right now, all those pressuresare being felt even more. And
then you add, for example, thecommunity that's right next door
to me, there's an 18 Wheelerparking lot right next door to
my house, that scent that thatcensus, like square from that
(16:41):
line onward, has an over 50%rate of COPD, more than 50% of
the people living there haveCOPD, which is upper
respiratory, like lungcondition. And so again, when
you have 50%, COPD, when youhave kids having asthma, asthma
attacks, and they're having tomiss school, missing grades,
(17:03):
right having to be held backbecause they're missing school
because they can't breathe. Wecan't take anymore. And so I
don't understand that's myprimary concern with this, you
know, with this ambition ofexpanding, expanding, expanding,
it's like, you know, where peacealive and they're just trying to
get every last bit of it out ofour community. But it's time for
(17:26):
us to say no, we can't besacrificed anymore.
Gregory A. Williams (17:33):
So just quickly, COPD is chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease.
So it's the kind of chroniccondition that can actually
cause you to die in your sleep.
It's what people use CPAPmachines for, for example. So
(17:55):
let's let me play devil'sadvocate for a moment. So why
wouldn't it be better for thatbig parking lot full of semi
trailers to be burning hydrogenfuel instead of diesel fuel? All
of a sudden? And to what extentis their vision in encompass
that?
Erandi Trevino (18:14):
Yeah. If it was all of a sudden, and we just had
hydrogen available? Hopefullyyou let's say, green hydrogen
available, then yes, right. Andit wasn't produced necessarily
in my backyard, then, okay. Butthe problem is that we, there's
infrastructure that still needsto be added, for them to create
(18:36):
this additional hydrogen. Andthen that hydrogen needs to be
created here in this area, whichproduces greater emissions in
the area, the production, thedeconstruction of the
infrastructure producesemissions, and the production of
the of the hydrogen does notonly that hydrogen, because
because of its size, becauseit's so finite, it's prone to
(18:59):
leakages. And so we're in aplace that already has high
levels of accidents ofincidences that happen at
industry at these facilities. Soyou have explosions, fires,
leakages, etc. So we're alreadyused to seeing that we know that
that's sort of like thestandard, right. And in Texas,
(19:21):
there's a one to 3% enforcementrate, one to 3% of the time.
Yeah. And so when you have a oneto 3% enforcement rate, it's
like my nine year old knee said,I mean, why follow the rules,
right? You would just bet on notever getting in trouble and hope
for the best. And so when wealready have that type of
(19:44):
situation going on here inHouston, how can a community
say, Oh, yes, I trust thisindustry, to create even more of
a risk in our community when wealready know that the
responsibilities they've beenhanded. They they're not Not
able to
Dina Rasor (20:01):
honor. Okay, well that that really segues right
in, because this is what what alot of people don't realize, you
know, they say hydrogen, oh,it's clean energy. Well, it
depends on what kind of hydrogenand they're, they're playing a
game on you with colors. Andright now, my understanding what
(20:29):
they're planning to do isthey're planning to put in so
they can make blue hydrogensnow, which blue hydrogen is
still made with, with, withpetrochemicals and fossil fuel.
And, you know, probably naturalgas and stuff. And so it's still
adding carbon in themanufacturing in, it's not, it's
(20:52):
not a clean, it's not clean,it's not renewable. And yet,
they talk about it about it. Oh,it's not like that terrible
weather, either called gray orbrown hydrogen, which is really
dirty, because it was used to bethat the process was really
dirty with. They weren't eventrying to lower the carbon, and
whatever. But what we're goingto do blue hydrogen, blue
(21:13):
hydrogen, sounds good, you know.
And they said, boom, we're goingto do that. And we're going to
have this carbon capture wherewe capture the co2 out of the
smokestack, and then they have apipeline to the co2 to take it
somewhere variant. And then youwrite the f7 pipelines for the
hydrogen. And so this ballthing, and then they they, you
(21:36):
know, in the proposal andreading along, yeah, yeah. And
then ultimately, if up, but inthe future, we're going to make
green hydrogen, or greenhydrogen is what you are, you
would want to do want to dobecause it's done by
electrolysis, and it splitswater into hydrogen and oxygen.
And so it doesn't. And if youmake when you do that, as
(22:00):
hydrologist, you use renewableenergy, when solar, whatever.
And so that the only hydrogenthat really does not make the
carbon that much worse, is greenhydrogen is still controversial
that people arguing aboutwhether or not that but they
say, whenever somebody likecompany tells the government,
(22:23):
first we're going to start outwith semi dirty and then we're
going to get better in thefuture, we'll finally be, you
know, perfect. They're countingon people like Iran, they didn't
go away, and forget that theysaid that, and just, you know,
what was the sacrifice? Right.
So I love but I wanted to askyou, do you think this coalition
(22:48):
sir, eventually moving to greenhydrogen, when they create the
infrastructure?
Erandi Trevino (22:55):
Well, as history is any indicator, I would say,
again, they don't deserve ourtrust, they don't deserve the
trust of the community. BecauseI mean, I'm gonna have to do
this has inspired me to do adeeper dive into each member of
the hivelocity. Hub. But thefact that for example, Chevron
(23:19):
is a part of it is already a redflag for me. And I granted you
need current industry to beinvolved in in the evolution out
of, you know, what is it ourdependency on these dirty
sources of energy, right? Sothey do need to be part of this
(23:39):
movement, but first to justtrust in what industry does.
There's no way because they'veproven here in Texas, at least
that if they can get away withit, or if the law allows it to
even if it is damaging tosomeone in the community. It
does. They still break the law,right? If it's more convenient
(23:59):
if it's more cost effective. Sountil we see a different pattern
from industry, there's no reasonfor us to just say, Yes, we
trust you.
Dina Rasor (24:10):
Yeah, I would say that
Gregory A. Williams (24:13):
the the, the high velocity of is already
tipped, it's and if you if youread their material carefully,
they sort of lay out thetimeline they have in mind and I
want to read an extended quotethat I think captures most of
it. So quote, while electrolysisbased technologies will continue
to scale through 2050. In otherwords, they're not going to be
(24:35):
doing things mostly throughelectrolysis for another 25 or
30 years. So continuing thequote, natural bet natural gas
based pathways will likelyrepresent a significant portion
of hydrogen production. In otherwords, they're going to continue
to bake dirty hydrogen. So,again, continuing with the
(24:56):
quote, as such, Texas would needsignificant carbon storage as it
transitions into a hydrogen hubin 2035, you know, 12 years from
now, the state could produceeight mega tons per annum of
hydrogen, assuming. And again,these are their words, assuming
(25:19):
that 70 to 90% of thisproduction is natural gas based,
Texas would have to storeanother 45 to 55 megatons of
co2, based on its era with CCSat a 98% capture rate. So they
(25:39):
are, they're betting this wholeprogram on continuing to produce
hydrogen with, with gas. Andthey're betting it all in the
success of of carbon capture andstorage.
Dina Rasor (25:59):
There are always these
Erandi Trevino (26:02):
sort of like the guarantee is made, right, or
there's this promise made. Butreally, there are all these ifs
and buts that need to happen,all these other things that need
to happen first, for that tohappen for that to actually be
the result. Or like the samething, the same red flag pops
into my head, whenever I hearwell, we need to scale it up to
really see the benefits, theenvironmental benefits and scale
(26:24):
it up. Again, this is somethingthat we've seen doesn't work in
the past. And so as you werementioning, even there, even
their plan says that for another20 something years, they would
still be using dirty hydrogen.
Gregory A. Williams (26:41):
And even then, the benefits of
electrolysis don't even comeinto play until you have a clean
electric grid. So the one to twokilograms of co2 per kilogram of
of hydrogen, you don't reachthat end, by the way, that's an
explicit target of highvelocities to get down to one,
(27:03):
one to two kilograms of co2 perper kilogram of hydrogen, you
don't get there until you have acompletely create a clean
electric grid. And recent studyby the Rocky Mountain Institute
calculated that if you were todo all of all electrolysis in in
Texas, are all hydrogenproduction via electrolysis.
(27:28):
Based on the the the fossil fuelheavy electric grid, they have
their it would be 20 kilogramsof co2 per kilogram of, of
hydrogen. So I was sort ofsurprised, I was expecting to at
least see a roadmap to that oneto two kilograms of co2 to, to
(27:53):
kilogram of of carbon, and itjust it doesn't seem to be in
there.
Dina Rasor (27:59):
Go ahead. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's I, I alwaysget, you know, I I've been
around long enough and thesekinds of things, and the defense
partner does the same thing withtheir weapons. You know, they
say, Oh, I it doesn't reallywork on the battlefield now. But
you know, we expect in fiveyears to fix that, and 10 years
(28:21):
from fix that, but you got tokeep giving us money. And they
can make it greenwashing is avery similar to what a lot of
other people do in the federalgovernment. But basically, it's
basically they're telling youhow green it's going to be in
the future. But like, what Gregjust brought up is that even in
(28:41):
the green version, they've gotthese hidden carbon thing. And I
sort of rag on this almost everypodcast because I want people to
start thinking about it. Youknow, people get me, oh, it's
carbon capture, direct capture.
(29:02):
There's this there's that, youknow, and I'd say now, you know,
Bill McKibben, who's a famousenvironmentalist who's been
doing climate change for a longtime. And we had him on, and he
had an article in The AtlanticMonthly. And then the title of
(29:24):
the article, I actually told himI want to use it for a bumper
sticker because no, they usebumper stickers, the thing of
your job and opportunity andthat kind of thing. He says
basically, and in light of whathappened, why today it is. Just
emphasize it's he says, Theearth is on fire, stop burning
(29:49):
thing. Full stop. And this isexactly the kind of thing. The
thing is we're gonna we're gonnastarted out something but we're
still burning things that wouldbe natural gas, you know, and
everything else. But somedaywhen we go into AWS, we're going
(30:09):
to find, we're going to do thisby electrostatic and oh, you
know, everything will bebeautiful and wonderful and
everything else. Oh, but I guesswe didn't tell you that the grid
is also going to use up the co2.
So if you're in letting out co2and stuff, and some burning
thing, okay, you're stillburning things. And we twice
(30:30):
have had on a really greatprofessor from Stanford. Now,
I'm renewing Jacobson, Dr.
Jacobson, Mark Z. And he, hesays, We can do the whole thing
without any of the fossil fuel,and any of these, or nuclear or
(30:51):
anything else. That is, youknow, not just putting renewable
energy, we can do it. And he'slooked at 145 countries. But I
always say this, who the onesthe listeners, probably
listeners know more aboutclimate change than I do. But I
understand about propaganda. AndI just wish I want to every
(31:12):
activist at every meeting, say,what do you do to stop burning
thing? What do you mean? Well,your MO, we got carbon capture,
we capture 98%, that's neverheard anybody making risk
capturing 88%. You know, they,they say it's this amount, and
there's so many 23%, loaderlower and everything else. So
(31:35):
having that stuff burn capturingit, transporting it through a
bunch of pipelines, transportingyou have to transfer now you
have transfer the hydrogen andthe co2 through pipelines, and
then take the take the co2 andput it back into the earth,
which it could also leak, youknow, that's not worth that
(31:56):
burning. In other words, that'snot a solution to burn. It's not
going to make it easier, but itis going to make it easier for
them to justify continuing notgoing completely clean energy.
So that's my little soapboxhere. So that everybody who is
an activist or you know, in yourarea and stuff, look up Vulcans
(32:17):
article and put that quote inyour head when he can stop
burning thing, every project,when are you going to stop
burning things? When does theco2 to go away? When does the
when does the natural gas waveaway? Where's the coal go away?
When the bio waste go away? Youknow, oh, by the way, see that
(32:38):
sounds ecological, you know,and, but it's burning something.
And I thought that from thatpoint on, every time I open up
and look at a new project likethis one, I'm like, Okay. When
are we going to, when or whenis, you know, I've lost the hub.
(33:00):
They're so excited about it. Andthen you wait, when are they
going to stop? Really? When arethey going to stop? So I wanted
to get your opinion on that.
Randy, too, would like to speakfirst?
Gregory A. Williams (33:14):
Oh, no, I'm sorry. I wanted to say Dina and
I are doing a lot of talking, wehaven't given you much of an
opportunity to tell us aboutwhat public citizen is doing.
Dina Rasor (33:23):
Yeah, well, that's my big thing now.
Erandi Trevino (33:26):
Yeah. So well, my role at Public Citizen is
primarily to work with thehealthy work communities
coalition. So I manage theCoalition, a coalition of
different organizations that arelocated around the Houston Ship
Channel. And so they're allworking on some of them specify
(33:46):
on water, or specialize inwater, some of them specialize
in, in air, others on thiscommunity outreach and support,
etc, etc. So they're all sort ofdoing something different in the
area. And the coalition is a wayfor us to come together and
really advocate for those basicthings that we all agree our
(34:08):
community needs. And so one ofthe things that we're working on
through the coalition is tryingto influence what type of grants
the Port of Houston applies to.
Because since a lot of thesefederal grants are IGA in the
IRA, the baker grants, the onesthat are millions and millions
of dollars have to be matchedfrom whoever is applying that
(34:31):
means that the only ones who areeligible to apply are going to
be agencies such as the Port ofHouston or maybe even coalition
such as like the high velocitythought hub. And so just
Dina Rasor (34:49):
go ahead. I was gonna have you built I was going
to have you go into the nextstep of, of telling us what
you're doing What you guys areplanning to do on this and what
he what you have done to themhow they have reacted. And then
what you what your plans are inthe future on this type
specifically on your highvelocity.
Erandi Trevino (35:13):
Yeah, specifically on high velocity
hub, what we're trying to do isdiscourage the Port of Houston
from using their applications,their grant applications to sort
of advocate for this type ofwork, or to contribute to this
work. And so every time that agrant comes up right now that
we've been working with theport, what we're trying to do is
(35:37):
discourage them from doing that.
But unfortunately, the poor likemany other agencies, like many
other industry, they are supersold, right? They're bought,
they drink the Kool Aid, thehydrogen Kool Aid,
unfortunately, and so we'retrying to our job right now is
to sort of convince themotherwise. But as you were
(35:57):
mentioning before, thatpropaganda is really strong. The
propaganda here from oil and gasand petrochemical industry in
Houston has existed for decades.
Right. Now we we're reaching apoint where I truly believe our
community sees clearly what'sgoing on, right, clearly sees
(36:21):
that they're being sacrificedclearly sees that Sure. Does the
poor provide jobs? Does itprovide some financial stability
for the city short, yes. Andeven some pregnant financial
mobility from people who I grewup with, right from fellow
immigrants. So they've been ableto become financially mobile
(36:43):
because of being part of theindustry. However, again, when
people keep getting sick all thetime, and your kids keep getting
sick all the time. And it'ssmelled outside. And now people
are starting to talk about theair and you see the haze in the
distance, it becomes a lotharder to sort of bite into that
(37:05):
propaganda. And not only that,going back to your, the quote on
the earth is on fire, stopburning things. Not only is the
earth on fire, but this is oneof the like, the starting ground
zeroes of where the fire iscoming from. And so really,
that's why to me, it's justunconscionable to add any more
(37:28):
to a place that already has thethis is where the fire is coming
from. And in this area, right.
And in the country. I mean, wehave, we have some of the most
environmentally vulnerablecommunities in the entire
country. In some cases, the toppoint 1% most vulnerable, around
me, top 5%. All right, still outof the entire country. Right. So
(37:49):
we need to start putting the outthe fire here first. That way,
it'll help dissipate everythingelse.
Gregory A. Williams (38:00):
So what kinds of grants do you encourage
the poor to apply for?
Erandi Trevino (38:05):
So we're trying to really also explain the
importance of justice 40 to thePort of Houston. So trying to
get them to sort of buy into thefact that 40% of the whatever
they're applying for, shouldeither go directly toward
projects that are around thecommunities most affected, or at
(38:26):
least 40% of the benefits shouldgo to those communities, right?
Whether it's money amount of 40%or 40% of the benefits either
way, we're trying to reallyencourage the fact that these
federal funds are meant to atleast in large part 40% benefit
communities, frontlinecommunities, or in other words,
sacrifice sacrifice zones. Andso we're trying to get them to
(38:51):
apply for things like electricelectrification technology,
right? Charging stations,applying for electric, whatever
other technological like forexample, electrical freight,
right, any type of electricalequipment that they can use,
(39:12):
that can reduce emissions in theareas around the port, which are
the areas most affected here.
That's what we want them to do.
So really, it's case by caseright now. But the main thing
that we're focusing on is makingsure that they're, again,
accepting the fact that 40%should benefit these communities
and applying for projects thatwill reflect that directly.
(39:37):
Right. And so we're still sortof struggling with that part. I
think we have made some headway.
However. The perception is stilloftentimes, while we're applying
for these funds, this is ourmoney. Right? And no, it's
federal money, federal moneythat is meant to benefit
everyone. The grant They'remeant to be taken out by groups
(40:00):
that can help that process movealong, right, like contractors,
etc. But
Dina Rasor (40:09):
that's what it's for. That's
Erandi Trevino (40:10):
the that was the intention. Right? Like the
President. Yes. Go ahead,please. Yeah.
Dina Rasor (40:16):
Oh, well, yeah. No, I didn't mean never a few. But
I'm just at one of the ask you.
This is what the IRA fundingsays should happen? Do you see
it? You know, we're Clementmoney watchdog, and we're always
watching. Do you see any effortsor it from the DOA to watch
this, to make sure that it'sreally going to this 40% that
(40:40):
they are, you know, by thestatue are supposed to do? Have
you seen? And when is the DoDthere for you? Or any of the
other parts of the DOA or, ortransportation or whoever's
doing the grid? And, you know,in that case, are they there for
you to make? Is there anybody inthe federal government standing
(41:03):
there saying to make sure thatmoney is going to the sack
people who've already made thesacrifice?
Gregory A. Williams (41:12):
Yeah, just to emphasize that the, you know,
I was intrigued to see that thehigh velocities, literature
itself emphasizes the justice 40initiative. And and I was going
to ask if that gave you anopportunity to, to ask them to,
you know, show you, you know,show me the money, you know,
show me the the 40% benefit thatyou're delivering with these
projects,
Dina Rasor (41:32):
and works the federal money cop making sure
that that's what you're doing.
Yeah, so.
Erandi Trevino (41:42):
So both things.
First of all, talk about theDepartment of Energy, the
Department of Energy has beenopen to talking to community
groups. I know, a couple of ourcommunity partners have spoken
with the Department of Energydirectly to talk about issues
running just this 40 andchallenges around it. Because
I'm not sure if well, so thatlanguage around justice 40 was
(42:05):
switched at some point. Becauseof I think it was a fear of a
lawsuit. Essentially, instead ofseeing that 40%. Child go to the
communities, it was somethinglike can go to the communities
anyway. It's sort of like,decrease the level of like, what
(42:25):
that come from? Sorry, I'm like,
Dina Rasor (42:32):
certainly increase the certainty of where it's
supposed to go. They put a firein this escape hatch.
Erandi Trevino (42:41):
Yeah, exactly.
And so right now we're trying tofigure out, okay, so now what,
right, the intent of this lawwas to benefit these
communities, the intent of thislaw was to move our energy
transition forward. So wheredoes that leave us? Right. And
so we're, we're having thoseconversations with the
Department of Energy, and eventhe Department of Transportation
(43:02):
for some other types of grants.
And so they have been receptive.
It's just, you know, things somove very quickly. Especially
with, with agencies. And so, alot of times, it seems like
we're having the sameconversations multiple times,
(43:22):
and sort of trying to switch theway we sort of frame things to
make sure that the people we'respeaking to the agencies, for
example, are understanding quitethe level of suffering we're at,
in my community, because that'swhat I that's how I feel. Like,
that's our reality, in thesacrifice zones. It's a real,
(43:45):
it's a reality of sometimesfeeling, like the effects from
your external environment,things that you cannot control,
or torture, right, because, forexample, random things that
happen as an effect from fromdirty air, for example, my mom
and I both have chronicinflammation. And sometimes our
(44:06):
hand hurts so much, we can't useit. We can't use our hands. Or
sometimes we have suchdifficulty breathing, we can't
do anything. And so what doesthat do? We're creating people
who are, you know, who arephysically less capable, and
therefore, less likely to beable to be successful, less
(44:27):
likely to, you know, be able toovercome these things that are
again health related, which tome is like the worst thing that
can happen to a person, right?
People say, health is wealth.
Well, in my community, we don'thave health. Overall, we don't
have it again, me, as I amhypersensitive physically,
because I already have allthese. I've been exposed to
(44:49):
pollution my entire life to highconcentrations of it. So now I
have a series of chronicconditions that are made worse
by environmental factors. Ders.
And so whenever those aretriggered, and if they're
triggered, let's say every daythat week, or every day, that
month, eventually it becomeslike torture. And again, it's
(45:10):
not okay for our community tabto live our reality, it's not
okay for us to have to gothrough life with one hand tied
behind our back, because ourhealth is affected.
Dina Rasor (45:23):
In other words, you are, you're you've lived it, you
don't want it to, you've livedit, you've done the sacrifice,
you don't want to have to do anymore sacrifice for another
generation.
Erandi Trevino (45:34):
I don't want to sacrifice myself, and I don't
want my community to have to dothat sacrifice. Because I know
that I feel it. Just because Ifeel it more in my body doesn't
mean that it's only affectingme. Because if everybody's
breathing it, it's damaging allof our bodies. So one reason why
cancer is so common in ourcommunity. cancer, asthma,
(45:59):
chronic inflammation, all theseother issues that are not as
prevalent in other communities.
Dina Rasor (46:04):
And when you go, yeah, sorry to interrupt you,
but when when the governmentkind of does the slow roll on
you and stuff that you say, youknow, they aren't speeding up,
or the climate speeding up.
That's what I keep tellingpeople, we can't make money
mistakes. And we got to move thecan't square out the usual round
(46:25):
and round and round governmentmeetings and whatever. It the
earth is on fire. And it's, andyou're breathing it.
Erandi Trevino (46:37):
Yeah. And what the government loves to do is
what I found out is passing thebuck, right? It's not us, it's
them. And then you go to them.
It's not them, it's the others.
And so it's always just mebouncing it back and forth,
bouncing the responsibility backand forth. And eventually what I
try to also tell them is we allhave to be responsible for this
Dina Rasor (46:58):
is all our home. We all have to act.
Gregory A. Williams (47:02):
So is there a set of milestones or gates
through which the the the highvelocity hub project has to pass
through? What What would youencourage our listeners to be
looking for and watching in thecoming six to 12 months? And
what plans do you in publiccitizen have to to intervene in
those milestones?
Erandi Trevino (47:24):
Yeah, so what I encourage people to pay
attention to is, well, it'ssometimes it's hard, but there
are some websites that keeptrack of the applications of of
which of like the hubs that areapplying. And so for example,
one of our partners, theEnvironmental Defense Fund has a
(47:45):
website that they can go to,which is a place to explore
potential hydrogen hubs. And soit's a compilation of different
hydrogen hub applications thathave come up. And so it's an
easier way for people to see ifany of those applications have
come up in their state. And thenthey can look further into see
(48:05):
if it's, you know, even closerto their homes. Because if they
are in a place that'spotentially affected, what they
can do is send letters directlyto the Department of Energy,
saying, you know, one thingthat's very, very powerful,
again, is simply writing aletter from behalf not simply
but writing a letter from behalfof community groups that can all
(48:27):
support it and saying, you know,we disapprove of this project,
for these reasons, right, andexplaining the situation at the
community and just saying whythey oppose it. So to have
community groups directly opposean application is very powerful.
It does have an effect, at leastaccording to, again, the
(48:48):
agencies that we've beenspeaking to.
Gregory A. Williams (48:51):
Alright, so we'll definitely want to get the
URL for that website to includein the description of this, this
particular podcast episode.
Other things that we should bewatching for in the next six to
12 months that, that yourorganization is doing?
Erandi Trevino (49:07):
Yeah, so our organization is going to be
trying to work on increasingcommunity outreach. Thankfully,
there there is some opportunityto grow our capacity here
locally. And so what we want todo is that is connect with
community and to be able to havethose conversations, because a
lot of times industries takeadvantage of the fact that some
(49:30):
of our communities aren'ttalking to each other. And
again, going back to the factthat Houston doesn't have zoning
laws, and a lot of ourcommunities are sort of divided
up between industry or you haveindustry embedded in the in the
neighborhood. So it kind ofcreates this isolation between
the neighborhoods. So we'regoing to try to create ways to
(49:51):
facilitate those conversationswithin the community. Because I
truly believe that again, mycommunity is ready to have I'm
sort of confront these issues,to attend permit hearings to
speak up to write letters, justto make sure that both the
government and these applicantsand all that we're watching that
we are also paying attention towhat they're doing. And and
(50:16):
hopefully that that encouragesalso applicants firm to do a
better job, if they know thatpeople are watching and able,
and willing to speak up.
Gregory A. Williams (50:29):
Any other advice or calls to action you'd
like to leave our listeners withtonight?
Erandi Trevino (50:35):
Well, if they would like to find out more
about the Healthy portcommunities coalition or public
citizen, I definitely inviteeveryone to, to go to our
websites. And just if you wantto become involved and have some
questions about what do you do,if you want to become
environmentally involved in itlocally or in your state, but
(50:57):
have questions about it? Youknow, please reach out to us,
we'd be happy to sort of explainwhat are all the options and how
do we, how do we create that,that strong voice together? All
right, well,
Gregory A. Williams (51:12):
it's been inspiring to have you here
tonight. And we certainly wantto keep in touch, because
hivelocity has a long way to go.
And we hope that you willcontinue your work to try to
keep them on target and focus onproducing healthier communities.
Any final words from you, Dina?
Dina Rasor (51:33):
No, except for like I said, go to her website,
especially if you feel likeyou're living in a sacrifice
zone, go to the go to herwebsite and watch see what
public citizens doing? And youknow, go to the databases and
look up your area, because whenyou go to the databases, and you
have actual documentation, youcan show up at a meeting then
they don't, then they're justnot going to treat. You're just
(51:56):
a tree hugger now, I guess, youknow, yes, back. So we really
admire what you're doing. And weknow that it's hard, and it's
personal. And it's not justpersonal because your health,
what you're trying to do foryour community. So we are very
interested in seeing how much wecan...
Erandi Trevino (52:12):
Thank you somuch. Thank you
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