June 25, 2024 • 48 mins
Jacob Klug, a 20-year-old entrepreneur, embarked on a remarkable journey when he co-founded Creme Digital. At Creme, they specialize in creating beautiful software products at a fraction of the traditional cost and time. Their portfolio ranges from MVPs for startups to internal tools for Fortune 500 companies. What’s even more impressive? All their software is built using no-code tools like Bubble. This is the story of how he did it.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I remember vividly being in the back of myclass and seeing, like, 50 to a $100,000 in
Stripe, and I was just in the back of my class.
And nobody had any idea.
In March 2020, Jacob Clark is in 11th grade.
He decided to start a no code agency officelaptop in school.
Today, they do over a $100,000 a month inrevenue and are now growing to build over a 7
(00:25):
figure business.
Without any resources up front.
This is the story of how he did it.
Jacob, thanks for joining.
It's a pleasure to have you on today.
I wanna start this interview with your earlycontacts.
You're twenty years old today, running acompany, doing 7 figures a year.
If I was around you when you were a teenager,would I have been able to tell that you would
(00:45):
be on the journey that you are today?
I think, you probably really got mixedmessages.
Right?
On one hand, I was a really bad student.
I did a really bad school.
I I barely passed my senior year.
I just didn't have a a real care for school.
I think like a lot of other people, I justdidn't like see myself, like, pursuing it long
term.
(01:05):
But on the other hand, it wasn't like I was,like, completely, like, just, like, in the back
tooling my thumbs.
I was, like, trying to do stuff.
Right?
So, you know, this agency was the first thingto work, but this is not how it started.
Right?
In grade 6, I built an app that with notifiedparents when their kids got to school on time.
So I had a problem of, like, remembering totell my mom when I got to school because I was
(01:29):
walking school.
And I was in middle school.
And I was like, maybe we could just, like,build an app for this.
I had a friend that was technical.
I took on more of the marketing kinda, like,design product kind of stuff.
And, that was, like, my first taste of, Iguess, seeing a problem and then building a
solution for it.
And then through high school, I was doing,like, various different sales, whether it was,
like, you know, drop shipping, Amazon, kindaFBA stuff.
(01:53):
I started a couple, like, miniature startupsor, like, apps for my school where they could,
like, buy and sell stuff within the schoolecosystem.
Just a lot of stuff like that, that I all builtjust you know, on on on the code tools that
later was like, this is super interesting.
How can I make this into something cooler,which then led to kind of the agency now?
What was it about entrepreneurship and andmarketing that that was attracted to you at at
(02:18):
such a young age?
I'm sure you're you're, like, ten or elevenyears old.
Like, what was it about that?
I think I just, like, early on knew that, like,the route of school and the route of, I guess,
the traditional path is just one that is veryjust stagnant.
And, like, the the cards are not entirely inyour hands.
I also think there's the the in some in somecontexts, there is a little bit of a cap to it.
(02:40):
Obviously, I mean, even if you're, you know,top SVP at at a really good company, you'll
you'll do great and you'll make a lot of money,but you're you're not gonna be, like,
potentially at your full potential.
And so I think that's kinda what interests meof, like, I could kinda carve my own thing.
You know, I didn't I never really liked thestandard path of just, like, going to
university.
I never thought I would do well.
So it was kind of like a mix of, like, of bothof of, like, those kind of reasons.
(03:04):
What was it about the school system that youdidn't like?
I just, like, felt like I was like, I justdon't know why am I learning this stuff.
Right?
I think I think a lot of kids feel like that.
And, you know, I think there are benefits ofschool that I probably didn't fully, like,
appreciate, because I'm not, like, fully, like,anti school.
I I just don't think it was for me, but Therewas a there's a lot of people that school
(03:25):
benefits and with that school, like, they wentthey wouldn't succeed.
I think entrepreneurship is a one path youdon't necessarily need to take the school
route.
Sometimes it helps.
Sometimes it doesn't.
I think it's really just like, I just, youknow, didn't feel like I, like, needed to be
there in order to, like, achieve what I neededto to do.
I love your story because you're telling mebefore this conversation a couple of days ago,
(03:48):
that in January 2020, you decided to start yourno code agency, and we'll get into what no code
is in the second.
But in March 2020 is when it you really decidedto double down on that.
The pandemic hit, and that's when you were ableto start focusing on it.
For me, I had a similar thing.
I had a phone repair business I was running upuntil March 2020.
COVID shut that down, and I had all this extrafree time.
(04:10):
And I wanted to use that time to do somethingwith it.
I just didn't know what at the time ended upbecoming this podcast.
But what was going through your head at thetime and and what was that opportunity for you?
Yeah.
So I think COVID was, like, definitely like ablessing for me, in the skies.
Obviously, it was, like, really tough to, like,be locked in my my house, but it allowed me one
(04:33):
simple thing, which is just freedom.
I was no longer tied to, like, actually havingto go to class.
I could, you know, do Zoom calls, and thatopened me to, like, one a lot more time to
actually focus a 100% of my energy.
I knew that I didn't wanna go to college sinceI was, like, probably going into high school,
like great grade 9.
And so all through a high school, it was kindof a race of, like, How do I figure this out?
(04:57):
How do I, like, kinda convince myself, convincemy parents, etcetera, on, like, why it makes
sense for me not to go?
And, yeah, I could, like, explain it to themand say, I'm gonna do this and this, but
obviously, like, actions speak a lot louderthan words.
And so I really felt this pressure to, like,figure it out.
Like, like, what am I gonna do?
How am I gonna sustain myself?
You know, I I I knew that my parents probablylet me, like, you know, give me the support,
(05:20):
but I really wanted to kind of prove it tomyself.
So a part a part of it was was really justtrying to figure out, like, how I can make
something work.
And then I realized I really like no code inproducts and software.
And I built a lot of stuff, like, for my schooland for just, like, as hobbies.
And, at the time I was running, like, a realestate media kind of marketing company, And we
(05:42):
we had we had mainly realtors.
We also had some, like, local businesses aswell.
And I realized that a lot of them were tryingto, like, transition during COVID.
Obviously, everything was digital.
And we had a couple local businesses lookingto, like, build a platform that integrates with
Zoom and a lot of and, like, kind of, yeah,community type features.
And so I was like, okay.
Well, this is super interesting.
I really like the space.
(06:03):
I'm really interested in bubble and no code.
And so I was like, maybe we can actually dothis as a service.
That's when kind of that light bulb moment,like, struck for me.
And and, yeah, we we we took on that kind offirst client, and then we're trying to
replicate it with, oh, here, we can like, onceI even knew that that was the thing you could
do, then we tried to go and find other peopleto do the same thing.
(06:23):
Okay.
So you're in high school, And you're selling tothese companies sometimes or your stage start
ups, sometimes enterprise companies Yeah.
Often run by people maybe double your age.
Yeah.
And you're saying, hey.
I can build what you need to be built in a veryshort period of time at an affordable price.
Was there any skepticism on their end frombeing a high schooler and charging 5 figure
(06:47):
projects?
Hey.
Is this kid even legit?
What is he doing?
And if so, how did you overcome that skepticismand get your first client?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm proud of it.
It was just I was off camera.
And those are pretty, again, again, that'sanother privilege that I had with, with, like,
the pandemic.
Right?
Like, everything went to zoom and Google Meets.
And, you know, to not show your camera wasn'tlike a crazy thing.
(07:10):
I mean, a lot of people were in the pandemicpeople aren't gonna ask questions because it's
just a weird situation.
And so that kinda helped.
When I would talk, it wasn't like this, like,you know, fifteen year old kid or sixteen year
old kid talking.
It was, like, not like he actually knows whathe's talking about.
And so I think as long as you actually, like,at the end of the day, like, people are just
gonna look up to somebody that, like, can saythe things that, you know, sound like, you
(07:35):
know, better than them.
And so I don't think age, especially now, islike as much of a factor.
There was a kind of a period, like, near theend of COVID where he started going back into
class.
And so Everyone was, like, back and, like,kinda catching up, and I was just, like, on my
laptop, etcetera.
But I would be, like, literally in the back ofmy business class.
Like, no joke.
Things would be, like, re learning aboutbusiness stuff.
(07:55):
And I'd be in the back, and I'd be, you know,on slack and on Stripe.
And there there was very, like, I remembervividly being in the back of my class and
seeing, like, $50,000 to a $100,000 in Stripe,and I was just in the back of my class.
And nobody had any idea my teachers had noidea.
And, it was a pretty cool feeling.
And then, like, we would do walks in co like,during COVID, they'd, like, they'd give you
(08:20):
breaks, like, on a walk around the schoolbecause whatever.
And, I would talk to my business teacher, andshe would just be like, what were you always
doing And on the back of your class, and Iwould explain.
I'd be like, yeah.
So I run this business.
And she's like, oh, cool.
Like, and she likes her to ask questions.
And I'm like, yeah, would you like, at thetime, I don't know, maybe, like, 50 50 k a
month or something like that.
And that she was like, oh my god.
(08:40):
Like, he he wanted to, like, teach, like, shefully was like, do you wanna, like, do, like, a
class, reteach people?
And I think that was, like, another reassuringmoment for me where I was like, Okay.
Well, if the teacher is, like, telling me Ishould teach the class, it's probably Did you
teach the class?
I think I wasn't, like, to be honest, like,confident enough to do at the time, but she
fully was like, no, didn't wanna teach the,like, just, you know, have 1, like, hour
(09:04):
session where I just, like, explained what Iwas doing almost as like a project.
But, yeah, I I also had to, make a deal withall my teachers, because I was failing school.
And I if if if I didn't if I didn't dosomething about it, I would just, yeah, fill up
classes, then I would be held back.
So I made, deals with all my teachers.
(09:25):
I I called all of them out, up, and I basicallywas like, look, I cannot go to class.
On Zoom.
I couldn't I couldn't attend the Zoom callsbecause I had other calls during them, real
calls.
And I said, like, I know it's like a weirdscenario, but, like, I explained to them, like,
what I was doing.
And all of them, like, all the classes I neededto, like, like pass.
(09:48):
All the teachers were, like, super luckily,just, like, very, like, yeah, we'll just do the
assignments and you're good.
And so if it wasn't for that, if and I thinkthat probably also plays into the fact that
COVID, things are weird.
Teachers weren't as strict.
Everything was online anyway, so it didn'treally matter.
And, yeah, they agreed that if I did theassignments, I didn't need to show up to class.
And then I'd I'd be fine.
(10:10):
That's awesome.
So that kind of made.
Yeah.
I remember so I met with this, somebody whoruns the Columbia entrepreneurship program.
And I used to work at at the business school.
And after our podcast started to take off, I Ileft to go on this full time.
And I met with him just to learn more aboutwhat there, any other Columbia students are are
(10:33):
doing in the entrepreneurship space.
And this was probably like 6, 7 months ago, somaybe I think I was 18.
And he's just like, man, you gotta come in tospeak.
And I'm like, me speak.
Why why am I speaking?
And similar thing.
It
just felt just so weird, but, yeah, definitelywouldn't say that, like you said, age isn't the
only factor.
And is much better to know know your shipbetter than anybody else than to just be
(10:58):
younger and not know what the hell you'retalking about.
For me, I think it was the combination of the2.
Right?
So I had a little bit of experience in inmarketing and and creating content a little
bit.
But then in the experience I didn't havebecause I was a little bit younger that kinda
helped give me that edge.
Yeah.
What advice would you give to maybe high schoolstudents right now who are looking at to you
(11:20):
who who maybe wanna build their own business oror start something from scratch, what would you
tell them?
I think you really to find somewhat thing that,this is like a pretty cliche advice, honestly,
but it it, like, I think a lot of the times,like, the cliche advice is the and the people
the things that people say over and over again,are usually the things that you actually should
probably listen to.
For me, it was finding something that Igenuinely enjoyed to do.
(11:42):
I think that I woke up every day And it diddefinitely did not feel like a job, but I,
like, this was something I was doing over myweekends.
And now that I got to do it during the week, itjust felt like that's great.
Like, this is what I would be doing either way.
Because that 1st 6 to 12 months, for somepeople that could be shorter, it could be even
longer.
Like, Not much happens, really.
(12:03):
Right?
Like, yeah, we got a couple of clients, but,you know, they're they're smallish clients.
I mean, I mean, big big for at the time, like,you know, yeah, you said 5 figures.
But, it it it was kinda like one client hereand then maybe a couple months, the next
client, and it would it would slowly tricklein.
And so unless you actually enjoy what you'redoing, you're gonna just be like, well, it's
not making money fast enough, right?
(12:24):
Or like it's not it's not working or like, Ijust kept doing it because I was like, this is
just fun.
And I'm just gonna keep doing it and makingmoney.
That's that's great too.
And then probably a year end, and some then youkinda look back with, like, you snap your
fingers from like, Like, I actually havesomething.
I have a real business here.
I also just think that, like, obsessing overwhat you do.
Think if you look at any successful person, Ithink probably, like, a good majority of their
(12:49):
success comes from just obsessing because ifyou obsess, then you'll, like, learn what you
need to learn.
You'll, you know, you'll execute on what youneed to execute on.
You'll, you know, mimic or you need a mimic.
Like, obsession is kinda like obsession slashfocus is kind of what drives everything, and
then that drives consistency, it drives hardwork, it drives learning, etcetera.
What are the key ways that you learn and areobsessed to be able to be the best in your
(13:13):
field or or build the best type of company?
Yeah.
I just I mean, I consume a lot of media and,like, you know, read and just, like, try to,
like, understand, like, where the world'sheading.
And just kinda go down various, I guess,different rabbit holes.
But I also think more than anything is justlike learn by doing, right?
Like, I think a lot of people, especially,probably younger entrepreneurs get caught up
(13:36):
into the information frenzy and try to, like,listen to every single podcast they can read
the next book.
They they are good.
They're great.
A lot of them.
But ultimately, it's obviously not the same as,like, actually going to execute.
There's so many, like, random things that won'tget drilled into your brain until they actually
happen.
So
I agree.
I think there's a right balance to be createdthere because when I started the show, I'm just
(13:59):
like, hey.
I'm gonna record the first episode and publishit the next day.
I didn't do any research about the industry
Yeah.
Or how podcast were successful in the past.
If I did might be in a totally different, stepthan where we are now.
Yeah.
But also might have just continued withbusinesses.
So I don't know.
But I think you definitely have to create thatbalance between the level of research.
(14:19):
But over time, there's a diminishing return ifyou keep researching without taking any action.
Like you said, And you also mentioned earlier,you didn't follow that rubric and the
traditional structure that other kids followed.
What's your POV on college?
Yeah.
So I definitely have mixed feelings, and Ithink the, I was just chatting with some
(14:41):
friends around this.
I think the pendulum is kind of swinging backthere was an era, and I think and maybe I'm
just biased because this is the time where Iwas making a decision.
But I think, like, maybe like 4 or 5 years ago,there was pretty the pendulum was swinging
towards not going to college.
I think that was, like, really cool and that,like, you know, your teal fellows, like, you
(15:02):
know, pure teal, like, inviting people to dropout and paying for them.
And and just like, I don't know, justculturally, it seemed, like, the kinda, like,
If you wanna do your own thing, don't go tocollege.
That's the right you need to take.
And while I do still believe that there arepeople that probably will be just as successful
or maybe more successful by not going tocollege.
(15:23):
I think that college and and, you know,spending 3 to 4 years of your life in your
early twenties to, like, develop yourself as aperson, to learn what you're interested in, to
meet friends is also not a bad thing.
And, obviously, if you're going into, like, youknow, like, law or, you know, medicine.
Like, obviously, you need to do this.
But as far as, like, entrepreneurs or business,I do think there are, like, There are things
(15:46):
you can attain through it that aren't, like,you know, maybe, like, hard.
Like, you you can't, like, point to them, butthey're kinda, like, soft skills.
That people attain.
And so I'd say, college is is the right pathfor some people.
I think you kinda just need to know yourself.
And I think honestly, the people that know thatare not gonna go to college, like, my advice
(16:06):
won't matter to them.
It's kinda like the the thing of, like, Elonwhen he was, like, asked, like, you know, if if
if if, if you don't wanna, like, eat on chew onglass and stare into the abyss, then starting a
company isn't for you.
He said something something along along thoselines, but he knows the people that are gonna
go do that, like, you know, they're gonna do itno matter what he says.
And so that's kinda the same thing we called.
(16:28):
You kinda know where you you don't.
I know we didn't touch on this much yet.
But when you started the no code agency youhave today, how much did you start the business
with?
Nothing.
Having
Agencies are really great because they requireno upfront capital.
Right?
It's a positive cash flow cycle.
Right?
I mean, when you think about it, You areselling and getting money in the door before
(16:54):
actually delivering the service.
It's it's it's reversed to WestStar would be,which is why startups need to raise money.
And and it's not just agencies.
There's obviously other service businesses.
There's there's probably strategic ways thatyou can, like, do that even in a startup.
But when you can get, you can get creativearound, how do I get money in the door before I
deliver, even if it's like 50%.
So that's what we did.
(17:14):
Right?
So, you know, we we had clients, We would takea 50% deposit, and then I'd use that money to
go hire people to do the work, contractors, andthen I would do the work, and then you get the
other 50%.
And this is something similar to what we spokewith with Neil Parikh on the marketing side and
and getting clients when he started Casper, hehad to be hyper targeted in the marketing.
(17:38):
Right?
He couldn't just put out a bunch of Facebookads and say, hey.
We have these mattresses.
It just wouldn't work.
Right.
So instead, he would send flyers out to peoplewho are just recently moving or college
students that are moving into their new dormroom, which would allow them to be not only
hyper targeted, but get potential customerswhere they're looking for maybe a new mattress.
(18:03):
For your team, when you started, you werereaching companies and and customers, but they
weren't, I guess, they weren't advertisingthat, hey.
We we need help with this.
So how are you getting those initial clients?
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of it, for service businesses,like, one of the big things always just like
word-of-mouth, like referrals.
We had, like, RFPs, which stands for a requestproposals.
(18:27):
So those are like when you go to the platformsthemselves and you partner with them, and then
they send you deal flow.
And so then you're there's also Google ads.
Right?
So, I mean, you've inbound and outboundobviously is pretty basic, but, like, inbound
is, like, you know, Google ads, people, like,intently searching.
I wanna build a product.
And then you have Outbound, which which, we'rekind of pushing out more now because you kind
(18:49):
of tap out of inbound at certain point.
And outbound is like cold emails.
So we experiment a lot with, now organiccontent, doing stuff like like this and and
socials and Twitter.
Just to kinda get the message out around, like,what the capabilities are.
For those who don't know, what is no code andhow far can you take that?
(19:10):
Yeah.
So no code is kind of a new rise in tools thatwe've seen.
There's some, like, kinda more there'sdifferent tiers of no code.
Right?
You have, like, what I call, like, kinda tier1, which I guess you could say is, like, the
OG, WordPress, right?
Oh, WordPress essentially, created this newcategory.
Because at the time, like, coding a just abasic website required, you know, significant
(19:35):
developers, and WordPress slowly bridge thegap.
Then I think you have, like, the second tier,which should be, like, Notion and, like, you
know, tools that, like, are pretty much madefor you, but you can do some configuring.
And, it kinda customize it in some ways.
Then you also have, like, things like Webflowand, Framer, and you can build, like, really
(19:55):
cool websites that are interactive and arecustom.
But where I really hang out is I you guys callit like tier 3 or tier 4, which is like complex
web apps, web applications, mobile apps,etcetera.
And so for those that, like, aren't familiar,there are tools we use bubble, but there are a
bunch of others, where you can essentiallybuild pretty much any kind of web application
(20:20):
using a drag and drop element kind of thing forthe front end.
That's completely custom.
So, like, yeah, you're dragging and dropping,you know, a feed, but that feed is customized,
you know, any anytime you want or any anyhowyou want.
Right?
And then to power the back end, to power thethe logic.
Think of it as, like, if if then statements.
(20:41):
Right?
But, like, building blocks, for those that arefamiliar with Zapier, you know, like, okay.
You're running, like, a automation.
You're this is triggered by Notion, then itlinks to that.
You're essentially doing that, but just, like,internally within the application.
So you're saying, okay, if these are clicksthis button, you're gonna take them to this
page and then Once they fill out this form,you're gonna save that data and you're gonna
create a new item in the database called user.
(21:02):
And the user is gonna have an email and apassword and a name.
Is you're basically just doing these stuff, butit's just like in a flow, like, state.
And so, essentially, it's what's called nocookies.
You don't require any code.
Right?
But I think people have this stigma that'slike, oh, like, you're basically, you know,
stuck to, like, the templated, like, ugly UI,and you can only build, like, so much stuff.
(21:26):
I mean, for reference, like, we wanted to,like, do an experiment to see, like, you know,
everyone loves Airbnb and so we wanted to see,How how far can you actually take this?
And we've taken it, like, honestly, a muchfurther than Airbnb.
Like, we knew that we could we built, like,video editing platforms.
We've done financial apps and health apps.
We've done internal tools that are crunchingnumbers and spreadsheets that are, like, bigger
(21:48):
than you've ever imagined that we can to atool.
But we wanted to see, okay, like, how fast canwe rebuild and design Airbnb?
We wanted to build something called Airbnbteams or Airbnb trips.
The the idea is, like, if you wanna travel withyour friends, picking a place, splitting the
costs, like, you know, kinda just all theresearch that goes into it is pretty annoying.
(22:08):
And it's actually, like, this is a real thingthat I think they should do because I think a
lot of people, you know, whether it's corporateor it's just like a group of friends going to,
you know, Europe for the summer.
They have to deal with picking a place, makingsure everyone agrees with it.
Everybody has the experience of going into thegroup chat and sending a bunch of links.
It's like this one, and then it's like, no.
This one, like, And then that eventually justgets lost.
So we we built a platform as an experiment tosee how fast we could rebuild Airbnb, but with
(22:33):
that, like, additional functionality.
Think we designed it in, like, a week or 2 andthen probably developed in another week or 2,
so all in 3 to 4 weeks.
And we basically had had Airbnb.
You would not be able to tell a difference.
We can leave the link in the description.
Yeah.
That'd be great.
You you would, yeah, you won't you wouldn't beable to now.
And there's a bunch of other apps that, thatwe've, I mean, all our apps, you would not be
able to know.
(22:53):
And these range from, like, yeah, we do somestartup stuff.
We're we're really focused and where we reallythink there's, like, super interesting
upside is again back as the internal tools.
Like, we're we're seeing such a rise in SMBsand enterprises looking to, like, also automate
their systems and, like, replace, like, suchannoying spreadsheets that people have to go
into and manually update and nobody knows,like, what, like, what does what, And it's just
(23:19):
a disaster leads to human error.
And so even a tool that's as simple asreplacing a spreadsheet, for these
organizations, that hundreds of people usesaves like 100 of hours, maybe 1000 of hours a
month, right, which which in return is, youknow, tens of 1000, 100 of 1000, 1,000,000 of
dollars in savings.
So, that that's where we kind of hang out.
(23:40):
And, that's really the capabilities of no code.
You can take it pretty damn far.
In your 1st few months, you've made in the lowfive figure range.
Yep.
How much are you making now?
We do around, I mean, obviously every month isdifferent.
So we work on a subscription model.
So, you know, we're, we're kind of like a afractionalized team for companies.
(24:01):
And so we used to do, like, fixed scopedprojects where you would come in and we'd we'd
price it out and we'd be like, okay, it's gonnacost.
$25, and you're gonna take 3 months and then wedo it.
Now we transition to, like, a purely monthlymodel.
And so it's good because our our monthlyrevenue is more stable.
And it also gives the client a lot moreflexibility around what they can do because
(24:22):
they're not tied in.
But, give or take.
Our average month, we're probably doing around,you know, a $100 a month in in in revenue.
Obviously, sometimes we lose a client, whichcan bring that down since those began a couple.
So I would say, like, 80 to 120 is probablylike the range.
How does it feel to be doing 6 figures a monthin revenue, twenty years old, and managing a
(24:44):
team, some of which are people older thanyourself.
Yeah.
It's cool.
I mean, I don't really think about it likethat.
I think it kinda just feels natural, I guess.
And it's always been like that.
If it was the I also never really worked I hadsome internships, but I never really worked
like a traditional job, which may have, like,maybe if I did, I would I went to cement it in
(25:08):
my head potentially in a negative way becauseit's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be, like,
talking to these people, like, in a leader,like, like, leading them.
Like, So I could see people that, like, that'swhy you have, like, corporate execs who, like,
will try to go work at startups.
And, it will, like, it will never work becauseThey are just unable to, like, function
(25:28):
independently because they are so used topeople, like, telling them what to do.
And so I think I had, like, the opposite ofthat, which is like, I never had someone
telling me what to do.
And so it just kinda was like the inherentthing to do.
One of the founders I met here in New York Citya few weeks ago is this guy named Ryan Sarant.
So he runs this giant real estate.
First, I know.
(25:49):
He's a yeah.
And he has this rule called a 1000 minute rulewhere he tries to get as much value out of
every single minute possible and try not towaste any of it.
Yeah.
How do you value your time and and how do youmake the best out of your time when running the
business?
I think in the early years to set up theinfrastructure, it's, really painful.
(26:11):
I mean, you know, you're dealing with kind ofeverything, especially in the agency business
where, like, Each customer is, like, pivotal tothe business.
So, you know, I was doing, like, delivery.
I was doing, like, a bit of sales, like, youknow, marketing stuff, managing the customer is
excited.
Like, like, you're just playing every hat, but,you know, now we're, like, 4 years into it.
I've established a really good team, but, like,kinda takes all that day to day stuff off my
(26:34):
plate.
And so now I'm really focused on growth andtaking the business to the next level and
refining operations and delivery.
So my days aren't as, like, back to back asthey used to be.
I think that's probably for the best because Ithink at a certain level, you do need time and
breathing room to, like, think about the nextsteps.
(26:55):
And that's kinda where we're at right now,where we're kind of like we've hit these, like,
cool revenue marks, but, like, how do we, youknow, 5 to the business.
So I, I kinda switch between, like, superintense focus where I'm, like, blocking off
things in my calendar and, like, literally,like, tasks, you know, like, and then sometimes
I'm like, nah.
I don't wanna have, like, anything on mycalendar besides a couple meetings, and I,
(27:17):
like, try to spend the day, like, thinking orconsuming media and just, like, understanding,
like, where things are at.
And one of the clients that you got was Eric.
Interrogate Eric as a client.
Yeah.
That that was a a funny one because, he I thinkhis manager posted on Twitter that they were
looking for bubble developers in particular.
(27:38):
And my friend, knew the manager and, made anintro to us.
And that one was, was funny because they cameto us and they're like, we need to, like,
launch in, like, 3 weeks.
And we have, like, kinda half the platformready, and we need somebody to, like, kinda
finish it off.
And so it was, like, super pressing.
Like, we had, like, 3 to 4 weeks, maybe evenless.
(27:59):
Honestly, it was, I think it was, like, 2 or 3weeks.
To basically, like, revamp this whole productbefore I was going live for like millions of
people.
And, we, like, kinda, like, just grinded.
I mean, we, like, dedicated the whole team to,like, just this one project to we really wanted
to impress them too because we knew, like, itwould be kinda cool.
And so we did it, and they're, like, blownaway.
(28:20):
We, like, revamped the designs.
We, like, implant a new front end, and they'relike, oh my god.
This is insane.
And then we ended up working with them, like,probably like 6 to 8 months after that, like,
as they're like full on product team, beforethey, raise just a lot of money.
It just didn't make sense to keep things onbubble.
For a company like that for Crater now, theirconsumer product they're somewhat reliant on,
(28:41):
like, super, you know, big scale.
There's a lot of just, like, integrations therepulling in from YouTube, TikTok, etcetera.
So something like that, it made sense tomigrate and that, you know, they raised a lot
of money.
They could build an internal team to do allthat.
But we took it pretty far.
I mean, we we probably ran their first youknow, doesn't, maybe 5 to 10 cohorts, on that
(29:01):
platform.
You saw an opportunity where a lot of yourcurrent clients ended up wanting to go digital
when when you're starting out the business.
In what way did they wanna do so?
And then how did you how do you help them godigital?
Yeah.
So I mean, like, the one example is there'slike a Tiguan Do studio.
This is like our first client.
And they, like, obviously, all their classesare in person, and they're like, well, That
(29:23):
doesn't work anymore.
So how do we, like, kinda continue drivingvalue?
But, you know, still charging customers in amore virtual way.
And so we built more of, like, a I mean, like,a, like, a fitness platform, basically, like,
where you could, like, tap into live live,accessions and then, like, pre made sessions
and the community features and, you know, stillpay the subscription.
(29:45):
And and that was basically what it was.
It was just kinda to keep the business runningduring COVID.
And today, is your goal to continue buildingout the agency model, or is it to start
building, like, maybe more of a venture studiotype of business.
What what's your long term goal for thecompany?
Yeah.
So we've we've dabbled in the venture studio.
We've done one deal.
(30:06):
With a mutual friend of, that we both know.
And, that one has been so far pretty good.
It's still, like, early to say, but They'veraised a good amount of money from great
investors, and the product is is is being builtreal nice.
And we've done a couple other things.
We've done something with Andrew Young.
If people are familiar with him on Twitter.
There's like, you know, tech parties and stuff.
(30:27):
We built, like, an event networking app for himthat we partnered on I was, you know, bullish
on, like, the whole kind of creator space.
How do you build products for them after doingthe creator now stuff?
I think I realized that it's really hard, to dotwo things.
I I that's something that, like, actually isprobably the number one thing I got wrong.
And probably that most people got wrong isthat, like, they they think that diversifying
(30:49):
their focus is is the safe thing to do.
It's actually, in my my belief is the oppositebecause, like, you're giving each idea, like,
20% of your time.
And that equates to basically nothing.
I mean, like, you to make something to build abusiness, like, you need a 110 percent.
Right?
Like, you you like, even if you think, oh, Ionly need to do this, this, and this today,
(31:12):
like, that's, like, the bare minimum, what youneed to do to just, like, check off the box
Like, how do you, like, take the business tothe next level?
What, what do you need to be doing to take thatextra step?
And you kinda just need to do that every singleday.
That's kinda goes back to, like, obsessing overthe product.
Let's say I'm an entrepreneur.
Right?
And I and I have, like, 5 ideas or 5 thingsthat I'm thinking through.
Each one of them, I convert divert 20 percentof my energy on.
(31:33):
You said, that's probably not the best idea.
Yeah.
How do I know which one I should go all in onand divert a 100% of my energy tours?
Yeah.
I mean, so if there's one that's starting tosee traction, obviously numbers speak louder
than anything.
Right?
So if you have numbers to prove, okay, this isseeing early signals, then, you know, your best
way to do that.
If that's not the case, then I think it justgoes back to, again, like, what do you
(31:57):
genuinely enjoy do doing the most what Whichone excites you the most to wake up to be like,
I think I could spend a 100% of my time doingthis and and just focus on that one and and
like never look back You need to give it atleast, like, a minimum of 6 months before you
make any decisions, if not 12, if not 18.
Like, these things just take like, a long time.
(32:17):
Right?
Like, the exponential growth of businesses isvery surprising.
Right?
Like, the 1st year, nothing really happens.
The 2nd year, something kinda happens.
3rd year, things are happening in the 4th year.
Like, wow.
Like, this is really cool.
And it's a various exponential curve, and soyou need to stick through the first, like, you
know, 6 to 12 months to see that any growth.
(32:37):
What if you learned about building an agencythat Most agency owners don't know or or don't
put enough attention towards.
I mean, we we fall into the trap of, of tryingof a bit, kind of going back to your question.
Like, I think a lot of agency owners fall intothe trap of Agencies are really hard
(33:03):
businesses.
So how do you get out of the agency business?
Right?
Everyone's always thinking, like, agencies isgonna be the 1st, like, 5 to 10,000,000, and
then I'm gonna go do software.
Right?
And so a lot of agency owners try exactly whatI tried is you you go, like, build software
either with partner with people or you justbuild it and you hope, like, it launches us as
a separate, SaaS.
(33:23):
You know, Andrew Wilkinson did did this and it,like, famously failed.
I think that is a, like, really big mistake isthat, like, if you're an agency owner and this
goes back to focus, like, Grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
Right?
Like, you're always gonna look at software andbe like, oh, wow.
Like, they only have to deal with customerheadaches and stuff.
But I think you, like, they're completelydifferent business models, completely, you
(33:47):
know, competing incentives.
And so, you kinda have to pick 1 or the other.
And, obviously, if the agency's already workingout for you, then probably double down on that.
What is your greatest failure?
And what did you learn from it?
Greatest failure.
I don't know if there's, like, one thing thatcomes to mind.
I would say that that software development isreally hard.
(34:12):
A lot of peep people run companies where theyhave to build one product, and that's really
challenging.
And we build a co we run a company that has tobuild multiple different products over and over
and over again.
So think about the process of that is ispretty, like, tough.
I would say that, especially in the early earlydays, we've had projects that, were definitely,
(34:36):
like, harder than expected and probably didn'treach the level of result that we wanted, and
that would really take a toll on me because,you know, I think everyone in the, like,
agencies are just, like, really top.
The those 1st years is really crucial in order,you know, to push out good work, but with
limited resources, limited team, Like, you'rejust playing on, like, 10x, like, hard.
(34:58):
Right?
So I think I wouldn't consider that a failure,but just massive learnings around How do you
actually execute against, you know, scopes?
How do you actually, you know, deliver ourproject that meets, you know, 100% expectations
How do you hire a great team to actuallyexecute that for you?
And, yeah, you kinda just evolve with theprocess and I just, like, obsess over how do I
(35:21):
build, like, the best product over and over andover again.
Because it's one thing to build a good productonce.
It's another thing to build it, like, you know,three times a month.
If, you know, three to four times a month,that's what our that's what we do.
Basically, it's pretty it's a very difficultthing.
And so that would be like my biggest, like,thing that I just have have obsessed advantage
to process and operations.
How did those projects not turn out asexpected?
(35:44):
What what happened there?
The thing about software is there's it's sointricate.
Like, like, and clients oftentimes also aren'tthe best at communicating exactly what they
want because it's so in their head that theyalmost don't even know what they want.
And so I think we worked with a lot of, like,early stage startups or just, like, solo
founders, even that, like, half had half bakedideas.
(36:07):
And, as the project would strum along, theywould start becoming more specific with their
feedback and with what they wanted because itwas, like, they were seeing it.
But when they first came to us and, like,scoped everything out, we would base it off
what they gave us.
Right?
But then all the time, we're showing themdesigns and some, like, and some early
development.
And they're like, oh, so that button should dothat.
(36:27):
And, like, this needs to, like, load like this.
Like, just, like, although the most randomstuff that I'm sure you can, you probably don't
think of when you're using a software.
And so that those stuff would just, like, pileon and on and on and on.
And then it would be like a constant, like,push and pull.
And so that's exactly why we moved away fromfixed projects because, honestly, after years
of trying different processes and differentways to, like, you know, set expectations, I
(36:50):
just realized that the beauty of software isthat it's ever evolving.
It's always changing.
You can't create a fixed stagnant scope forsomething that is always gonna continue to
evolve as the process goes on.
And so, you know, how do we incentivize youknow, both sides is that I think the
subscription model makes a lot of sense becausewe're gonna be their, like, dedicated team.
(37:12):
We're gonna, you know, we're charging like afraction of what they would need to spend, you
know, for a designer, developer, and projectmanager, if they were to go hire those people,
they're getting the same results, if notbetter, because, you know, we've done this a
million times.
And, yeah, they don't need to deal with, like,arguing back and forth because we're just
there.
Like, every month, we'll do exactly what youwanna do.
If you wanna change the whole platform halfwaythrough.
(37:34):
Like, that's fine because at the end of theday, you're basically just paying for our our
resources and time.
So
And you mentioned after that experience, youwanna put a lot more time towards developing
the right processes and and structures.
What were some of those structures andprocesses that you now implement in the
business?
Yeah.
I mean, first off, like, just documenting aprocess and, like, just outlining that is just,
(37:57):
like, the first step.
Right?
I mean, it sounds, like, dumb, but, like, somuch of a process is just like in can be in
your head and, like, just getting that on paperand, like, really thinking through it.
But then, like, it just, like, is alwaysevolving.
I mean, the first process, like, there's no,like, none of it's used anymore.
Right?
And so you just kinda learn, you start tweakingthings, you're like, okay, this could be better
(38:17):
by this, and the client asked for this.
And now we're at the level where we create,like, an asynchronous environment where we
have, like, a suite of, like, automations thatare, like, being triggered to send client
updates and to, like, update here.
And it's, like, it's a machine, basically.
That's, like, operating this.
And now we're taking it one step further.
We build internal tools.
(38:37):
That's basically our main kind of thing that wedo.
We we work with a lot of SMBs Enterprises, andwe help them build really fast, really custom
internal tools.
And I was like, well, you know, we use Notion.
Notion is a great tool.
But it doesn't do everything that I would like.
It's there's some nuances that you need totake, even, like, an extra, like, couple button
(38:58):
clicks.
For a project manager to do.
I mean, it doesn't seem like a lot, but it,especially in in confusions and errors and then
also is at the time to actually do it.
It adds up a lot, not to mention that we're notable to actually build a experience that, like,
matches our process hand to hand.
We're kind of constraint by what Notion allowsus to do or any other project management tool.
(39:21):
And so now we're in the midst of building ourown internal tool.
Kind of, you know, baking your cake and eatingit too.
And we're empowering and using AI to, like,even, like, make our our process even faster
and more automated.
So, like, my goal is, like, how do we, like,completely replace the need for our project
manager?
And, It's, yes, it's kind of a scary thing, butit's also kind of an exciting thing, because I
(39:47):
think that's gonna be pretty possible with withbesides client communications, I think, like,
in our in our case, like, user stories andscoping other project, That's like a lot of the
left.
And I think you can use AI with a platform thatwe're building right now where we're gonna
house all our information.
We're gonna manage clients through, and thenyou just have a layer of AI in that.
(40:09):
Obviously, just using, like, you know, OpenAIor some other model.
But just like, fine tuning it.
So it does exactly what we need to do, and itjust, like, builds it right into the platform.
Right?
So if we click a button, it's gonna, like,generate all series we need, we can move them
across the board.
And it's gonna be pretty cool.
And so that's exactly the stuff that we do forother clients, but now it's like, how do I take
the process to, like, a next level.
(40:31):
Like, automate everything.
Yeah.
I can't remember exactly who said this, but Iremember hearing that Sometimes when companies
decide to build their own internal tools,especially if it's an enterprise company,
they're probably other companies that arelooking for a similar tool.
And if you can just take that internal tool andsay, sell it to a bunch of different companies,
(40:52):
you can make a lot of money off of it.
I think it was Odessa that that did somethinglike that, but but if not, there are definitely
other companies that have become massive justby taking internal tools and then just scaling
it that way.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, beehive.
Right?
Yes.
Beehive is one of them.
Yeah.
They've done that.
They did that.
But but he but, I mean, You could do that.
I think that also, though, goes against kindawhat what I was saying around.
(41:16):
Don't, like, it's so easy for people to, like,look at software and be like, I should make
this my main business.
I think software is probably a lot.
If you're running a business that's successfulthat's doing well, it's generating money that
you're happy with.
Use software to, like, increase efficiency,increase, you know, savings, make more money,
you know, reduce the amount of staff, make yourclients happier.
(41:39):
And ultimately, if you were to sell thebusiness, it'll be worth a lot more because you
have, you know, software that you built inhouse that's custom to you that nobody else
has.
So I'm more in the belief of, like, don't justbuild the software and, like, replicate and let
everyone have it.
Yeah.
Like you said, for existing companies, thatdoesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Like would be, I did.
They spun out a morning bird.
(41:59):
Sure.
Yeah.
It's a great it's a great, like, ideationfunnel, I guess, you could say.
Yeah.
Gotcha.
And outside of lead time, what are some of thekey distinctions between selling to startup
founders and enterprise companies?
Yeah.
I mean, startup founders are actually tougherto work with.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
(42:21):
I saw this I saw this guy, do an interview, andhe was talking.
He's he's in real estate, and he said that youknow, the bigger the deal, the easier it was,
because the people are smarter, they're faster,they know what they're doing, and, you know,
cash is more like, dispensable.
And I think, like, that is super true withpretty much every industry, I think.
The bigger usually the bigger the client theeasier, it gets.
(42:48):
1, because it it's not their money at the endof the day.
Right?
Like, when a founder comes to you and they'relike, we wanna build this and we have $30,000.
And this is my life savings.
There's a lot of pressure on that, And they'regonna try to squeeze that $30,000 out, like,
it's, you know, lemonade.
Right?
Where if, like, a VP at, like, a a Fortune 500company comes along and it's like, hey, we
(43:10):
wanna spend $50 to build this tool.
And we're like, cool.
And and then, like, you know, it ends up takingan extra month And, you know, they, like, spend
a little bit more.
They're like, oh, that's fine.
It's finally off.
So we added some stuff.
Like, they get how this world works, a lotmore.
And, and yeah, they they they just tend to knowwhat they're doing when it comes to working
(43:30):
with vendors and how to, like, make sure theycommunicate the right things and set
expectations.
Everyone's kind of on a on a clear wavelengthfrom the beginning.
And so, yeah, besides the sales process,obviously, that's the one downside is that,
like, they just take a lot longer to close.
But
Got it.
And the last couple of questions, What scaresyou today?
(43:50):
What scares me?
I mean, as as as much as I talk about, AI andstuff, I do think it's kinda concerning,
honestly.
I'm sure we will find a way to evolve, but Ijust don't see it right now.
From what I'm saying, I'm not, like, you know,front and center AI.
Like, I'm I'm just using the tools that are outthere and using them and maybe in a more custom
(44:13):
internal, like, you know, building applicationsaround them.
But, you know, given that what I think we'regonna be able to do for ourselves and what we
do for other companies, I'm generally somewhatconcerned around, like, what what are people
gonna do that aren't, like, the CEO and, like,the executive team?
I think there's there's, like, it's a good andbad, right?
Like, you will have agencies and you'll havecompanies that have a five person executive
(44:36):
team.
And that's it.
And there'll be $1,000,000,000 companies.
It'll be run by AA AI agents and and tools andautomations.
And It will, it will be insane.
I mean, that would a five person company thatprobably should have been, like, a 1000 or 5000
person company will probably just be 5executives and a bunch of now the good thing is
(44:58):
like, wow, that's great.
Like, the business world is probably lovingthat.
Right?
They're like, that's great.
We're gonna make so much money.
It's super cool to see the technologyadvancing.
But on the other side, that's a 1000 jobs thatare now, like, gone like that.
Right?
And so some something needs to make up for it,whether that's, you know, universal basic
income from the AIs.
(45:19):
I mean, I know that's the discussion point.
But I honestly don't think we're that far offfrom a point of where AI will be able to pretty
much replace majority of humans.
Now, will companies actually do that is anotherquestion, but I think capabilities wise, it's
it's pretty close already.
And so I'm kind of part of the problem in a, ina way, but that's just how things are going,
(45:42):
right?
You can't stop it.
I trust a human more than I trust in AI.
Right?
I think I actually think the biggest issue inAI is not the capabilities technically.
I think it's I think it's just a trust.
Like, would is somebody gonna be able to trustin the eye over their clients over a project
manager?
Right?
And that and it's not a capability thingbecause we already know the AI can can do a lot
(46:05):
of that stuff.
It can it can generate documents.
It can generate, you know, site maps and flowsand all that stuff.
It's not about that.
It's like, is is the information that it'sactually providing?
Is it right?
And how how trustworthy are you gonna makethat?
Like, At what point, like, the trust test wouldbe, like, could AI, like, perform, like,
medical assessments?
Like, if we can reach that point of trust,then, like, okay.
(46:25):
Then we can trusted to manage a product or wecan trust it to do a legal document.
And so I think the trust element will take awhile.
I think that'll take decades.
Probably.
I think it will as well because humans are muchmore different to interact with than in AI.
Right?
So we have more things to common with eachother.
It's easier to have conversation.
There's definitely a lot of differences anddistinctions there.
(46:48):
We're an AI.
You're you're typing into a computer orsomething like that.
You don't get to see someone's face in person.
So that's where I think trust is built up,especially That's why I like a lot more in
person meetings, especially when closing alarge deal as I think there's just a lot more
trust that can be built up.
Yep.
With people than than doing it over a screenbecause I feel like that's just harder to do.
(47:08):
Definitely.
But for the last question, if I switch you overa phone, and you could call your sixteen year
old self.
Yeah.
Would you call?
And if so, what would you say?
To be honest, this sounds like a I mean, Icould just say, yeah.
I'd call, and here's what I would say.
I actually don't think I'd call.
(47:29):
Because frankly, like, I don't really, like,look back and be like, I should've done
anything differently.
I mean, I think I'm I think I'm where I'msupposed to be, and hopefully I continue to
propel.
But I think that, like, the mistakes you makeare just part of the process.
Right?
Like, you shouldn't you shouldn't, like, wanna,like, circumnavigate that.
(47:50):
So I I went in call because, yeah, I think Iwas doing the right things at the time.
Honest honestly, like, I was I was very drivenand very focused.
And, yeah, maybe I coulda gave myself a bit ofreassurance around, like, school would be fine.
But also I think that the pressure of of notknowing it would be fine.
Probably drove me to work even harder.
So, so probably not.
(48:11):
That's the power of putting your backup againstthe wall.
Right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, I think that's a great way to end it.
Thanks for taking the time to come on thisshow, Jacob.
I appreciate it.
We'll have a link, down to your website and theepisode description down below, creme digital,
and for anyone listening, if that's somethingyou're interested in, feel free to take a look.
Awesome.
Thanks for having me.
I remember vividly being in the back of myclass and seeing, like, 50 to a $100,000 in
Stripe, and I was just in the back of my class.
And nobody had any idea.
In March 2020, Jacob Clark is in 11th grade.
He decided to start a no code agency officelaptop in school.
Today, they do over a $100,000 a month inrevenue and are now growing to build over a 7
(00:25):
figure business.
Without any resources up front.
This is the story of how he did it.
Jacob, thanks for joining.
It's a pleasure to have you on today.
I wanna start this interview with your earlycontacts.
You're twenty years old today, running acompany, doing 7 figures a year.
If I was around you when you were a teenager,would I have been able to tell that you would
(00:45):
be on the journey that you are today?
I think, you probably really got mixedmessages.
Right?
On one hand, I was a really bad student.
I did a really bad school.
I I barely passed my senior year.
I just didn't have a a real care for school.
I think like a lot of other people, I justdidn't like see myself, like, pursuing it long
term.
(01:05):
But on the other hand, it wasn't like I was,like, completely, like, just, like, in the back
tooling my thumbs.
I was, like, trying to do stuff.
Right?
So, you know, this agency was the first thingto work, but this is not how it started.
Right?
In grade 6, I built an app that with notifiedparents when their kids got to school on time.
So I had a problem of, like, remembering totell my mom when I got to school because I was
(01:29):
walking school.
And I was in middle school.
And I was like, maybe we could just, like,build an app for this.
I had a friend that was technical.
I took on more of the marketing kinda, like,design product kind of stuff.
And, that was, like, my first taste of, Iguess, seeing a problem and then building a
solution for it.
And then through high school, I was doing,like, various different sales, whether it was,
like, you know, drop shipping, Amazon, kindaFBA stuff.
(01:53):
I started a couple, like, miniature startupsor, like, apps for my school where they could,
like, buy and sell stuff within the schoolecosystem.
Just a lot of stuff like that, that I all builtjust you know, on on on the code tools that
later was like, this is super interesting.
How can I make this into something cooler,which then led to kind of the agency now?
What was it about entrepreneurship and andmarketing that that was attracted to you at at
(02:18):
such a young age?
I'm sure you're you're, like, ten or elevenyears old.
Like, what was it about that?
I think I just, like, early on knew that, like,the route of school and the route of, I guess,
the traditional path is just one that is veryjust stagnant.
And, like, the the cards are not entirely inyour hands.
I also think there's the the in some in somecontexts, there is a little bit of a cap to it.
(02:40):
Obviously, I mean, even if you're, you know,top SVP at at a really good company, you'll
you'll do great and you'll make a lot of money,but you're you're not gonna be, like,
potentially at your full potential.
And so I think that's kinda what interests meof, like, I could kinda carve my own thing.
You know, I didn't I never really liked thestandard path of just, like, going to
university.
I never thought I would do well.
So it was kind of like a mix of, like, of bothof of, like, those kind of reasons.
(03:04):
What was it about the school system that youdidn't like?
I just, like, felt like I was like, I justdon't know why am I learning this stuff.
Right?
I think I think a lot of kids feel like that.
And, you know, I think there are benefits ofschool that I probably didn't fully, like,
appreciate, because I'm not, like, fully, like,anti school.
I I just don't think it was for me, but Therewas a there's a lot of people that school
(03:25):
benefits and with that school, like, they wentthey wouldn't succeed.
I think entrepreneurship is a one path youdon't necessarily need to take the school
route.
Sometimes it helps.
Sometimes it doesn't.
I think it's really just like, I just, youknow, didn't feel like I, like, needed to be
there in order to, like, achieve what I neededto to do.
I love your story because you're telling mebefore this conversation a couple of days ago,
(03:48):
that in January 2020, you decided to start yourno code agency, and we'll get into what no code
is in the second.
But in March 2020 is when it you really decidedto double down on that.
The pandemic hit, and that's when you were ableto start focusing on it.
For me, I had a similar thing.
I had a phone repair business I was running upuntil March 2020.
COVID shut that down, and I had all this extrafree time.
(04:10):
And I wanted to use that time to do somethingwith it.
I just didn't know what at the time ended upbecoming this podcast.
But what was going through your head at thetime and and what was that opportunity for you?
Yeah.
So I think COVID was, like, definitely like ablessing for me, in the skies.
Obviously, it was, like, really tough to, like,be locked in my my house, but it allowed me one
(04:33):
simple thing, which is just freedom.
I was no longer tied to, like, actually havingto go to class.
I could, you know, do Zoom calls, and thatopened me to, like, one a lot more time to
actually focus a 100% of my energy.
I knew that I didn't wanna go to college sinceI was, like, probably going into high school,
like great grade 9.
And so all through a high school, it was kindof a race of, like, How do I figure this out?
(04:57):
How do I, like, kinda convince myself, convincemy parents, etcetera, on, like, why it makes
sense for me not to go?
And, yeah, I could, like, explain it to themand say, I'm gonna do this and this, but
obviously, like, actions speak a lot louderthan words.
And so I really felt this pressure to, like,figure it out.
Like, like, what am I gonna do?
How am I gonna sustain myself?
You know, I I I knew that my parents probablylet me, like, you know, give me the support,
(05:20):
but I really wanted to kind of prove it tomyself.
So a part a part of it was was really justtrying to figure out, like, how I can make
something work.
And then I realized I really like no code inproducts and software.
And I built a lot of stuff, like, for my schooland for just, like, as hobbies.
And, at the time I was running, like, a realestate media kind of marketing company, And we
(05:42):
we had we had mainly realtors.
We also had some, like, local businesses aswell.
And I realized that a lot of them were tryingto, like, transition during COVID.
Obviously, everything was digital.
And we had a couple local businesses lookingto, like, build a platform that integrates with
Zoom and a lot of and, like, kind of, yeah,community type features.
And so I was like, okay.
Well, this is super interesting.
I really like the space.
(06:03):
I'm really interested in bubble and no code.
And so I was like, maybe we can actually dothis as a service.
That's when kind of that light bulb moment,like, struck for me.
And and, yeah, we we we took on that kind offirst client, and then we're trying to
replicate it with, oh, here, we can like, onceI even knew that that was the thing you could
do, then we tried to go and find other peopleto do the same thing.
(06:23):
Okay.
So you're in high school, And you're selling tothese companies sometimes or your stage start
ups, sometimes enterprise companies Yeah.
Often run by people maybe double your age.
Yeah.
And you're saying, hey.
I can build what you need to be built in a veryshort period of time at an affordable price.
Was there any skepticism on their end frombeing a high schooler and charging 5 figure
(06:47):
projects?
Hey.
Is this kid even legit?
What is he doing?
And if so, how did you overcome that skepticismand get your first client?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm proud of it.
It was just I was off camera.
And those are pretty, again, again, that'sanother privilege that I had with, with, like,
the pandemic.
Right?
Like, everything went to zoom and Google Meets.
And, you know, to not show your camera wasn'tlike a crazy thing.
(07:10):
I mean, a lot of people were in the pandemicpeople aren't gonna ask questions because it's
just a weird situation.
And so that kinda helped.
When I would talk, it wasn't like this, like,you know, fifteen year old kid or sixteen year
old kid talking.
It was, like, not like he actually knows whathe's talking about.
And so I think as long as you actually, like,at the end of the day, like, people are just
gonna look up to somebody that, like, can saythe things that, you know, sound like, you
(07:35):
know, better than them.
And so I don't think age, especially now, islike as much of a factor.
There was a kind of a period, like, near theend of COVID where he started going back into
class.
And so Everyone was, like, back and, like,kinda catching up, and I was just, like, on my
laptop, etcetera.
But I would be, like, literally in the back ofmy business class.
Like, no joke.
Things would be, like, re learning aboutbusiness stuff.
(07:55):
And I'd be in the back, and I'd be, you know,on slack and on Stripe.
And there there was very, like, I remembervividly being in the back of my class and
seeing, like, $50,000 to a $100,000 in Stripe,and I was just in the back of my class.
And nobody had any idea my teachers had noidea.
And, it was a pretty cool feeling.
And then, like, we would do walks in co like,during COVID, they'd, like, they'd give you
(08:20):
breaks, like, on a walk around the schoolbecause whatever.
And, I would talk to my business teacher, andshe would just be like, what were you always
doing And on the back of your class, and Iwould explain.
I'd be like, yeah.
So I run this business.
And she's like, oh, cool.
Like, and she likes her to ask questions.
And I'm like, yeah, would you like, at thetime, I don't know, maybe, like, 50 50 k a
month or something like that.
And that she was like, oh my god.
(08:40):
Like, he he wanted to, like, teach, like, shefully was like, do you wanna, like, do, like, a
class, reteach people?
And I think that was, like, another reassuringmoment for me where I was like, Okay.
Well, if the teacher is, like, telling me Ishould teach the class, it's probably Did you
teach the class?
I think I wasn't, like, to be honest, like,confident enough to do at the time, but she
fully was like, no, didn't wanna teach the,like, just, you know, have 1, like, hour
(09:04):
session where I just, like, explained what Iwas doing almost as like a project.
But, yeah, I I also had to, make a deal withall my teachers, because I was failing school.
And I if if if I didn't if I didn't dosomething about it, I would just, yeah, fill up
classes, then I would be held back.
So I made, deals with all my teachers.
(09:25):
I I called all of them out, up, and I basicallywas like, look, I cannot go to class.
On Zoom.
I couldn't I couldn't attend the Zoom callsbecause I had other calls during them, real
calls.
And I said, like, I know it's like a weirdscenario, but, like, I explained to them, like,
what I was doing.
And all of them, like, all the classes I neededto, like, like pass.
(09:48):
All the teachers were, like, super luckily,just, like, very, like, yeah, we'll just do the
assignments and you're good.
And so if it wasn't for that, if and I thinkthat probably also plays into the fact that
COVID, things are weird.
Teachers weren't as strict.
Everything was online anyway, so it didn'treally matter.
And, yeah, they agreed that if I did theassignments, I didn't need to show up to class.
And then I'd I'd be fine.
(10:10):
That's awesome.
So that kind of made.
Yeah.
I remember so I met with this, somebody whoruns the Columbia entrepreneurship program.
And I used to work at at the business school.
And after our podcast started to take off, I Ileft to go on this full time.
And I met with him just to learn more aboutwhat there, any other Columbia students are are
(10:33):
doing in the entrepreneurship space.
And this was probably like 6, 7 months ago, somaybe I think I was 18.
And he's just like, man, you gotta come in tospeak.
And I'm like, me speak.
Why why am I speaking?
And similar thing.
It
just felt just so weird, but, yeah, definitelywouldn't say that, like you said, age isn't the
only factor.
And is much better to know know your shipbetter than anybody else than to just be
(10:58):
younger and not know what the hell you'retalking about.
For me, I think it was the combination of the2.
Right?
So I had a little bit of experience in inmarketing and and creating content a little
bit.
But then in the experience I didn't havebecause I was a little bit younger that kinda
helped give me that edge.
Yeah.
What advice would you give to maybe high schoolstudents right now who are looking at to you
(11:20):
who who maybe wanna build their own business oror start something from scratch, what would you
tell them?
I think you really to find somewhat thing that,this is like a pretty cliche advice, honestly,
but it it, like, I think a lot of the times,like, the cliche advice is the and the people
the things that people say over and over again,are usually the things that you actually should
probably listen to.
For me, it was finding something that Igenuinely enjoyed to do.
(11:42):
I think that I woke up every day And it diddefinitely did not feel like a job, but I,
like, this was something I was doing over myweekends.
And now that I got to do it during the week, itjust felt like that's great.
Like, this is what I would be doing either way.
Because that 1st 6 to 12 months, for somepeople that could be shorter, it could be even
longer.
Like, Not much happens, really.
(12:03):
Right?
Like, yeah, we got a couple of clients, but,you know, they're they're smallish clients.
I mean, I mean, big big for at the time, like,you know, yeah, you said 5 figures.
But, it it it was kinda like one client hereand then maybe a couple months, the next
client, and it would it would slowly tricklein.
And so unless you actually enjoy what you'redoing, you're gonna just be like, well, it's
not making money fast enough, right?
(12:24):
Or like it's not it's not working or like, Ijust kept doing it because I was like, this is
just fun.
And I'm just gonna keep doing it and makingmoney.
That's that's great too.
And then probably a year end, and some then youkinda look back with, like, you snap your
fingers from like, Like, I actually havesomething.
I have a real business here.
I also just think that, like, obsessing overwhat you do.
Think if you look at any successful person, Ithink probably, like, a good majority of their
(12:49):
success comes from just obsessing because ifyou obsess, then you'll, like, learn what you
need to learn.
You'll, you know, you'll execute on what youneed to execute on.
You'll, you know, mimic or you need a mimic.
Like, obsession is kinda like obsession slashfocus is kind of what drives everything, and
then that drives consistency, it drives hardwork, it drives learning, etcetera.
What are the key ways that you learn and areobsessed to be able to be the best in your
(13:13):
field or or build the best type of company?
Yeah.
I just I mean, I consume a lot of media and,like, you know, read and just, like, try to,
like, understand, like, where the world'sheading.
And just kinda go down various, I guess,different rabbit holes.
But I also think more than anything is justlike learn by doing, right?
Like, I think a lot of people, especially,probably younger entrepreneurs get caught up
(13:36):
into the information frenzy and try to, like,listen to every single podcast they can read
the next book.
They they are good.
They're great.
A lot of them.
But ultimately, it's obviously not the same as,like, actually going to execute.
There's so many, like, random things that won'tget drilled into your brain until they actually
happen.
So
I agree.
I think there's a right balance to be createdthere because when I started the show, I'm just
(13:59):
like, hey.
I'm gonna record the first episode and publishit the next day.
I didn't do any research about the industry
Yeah.
Or how podcast were successful in the past.
If I did might be in a totally different, stepthan where we are now.
Yeah.
But also might have just continued withbusinesses.
So I don't know.
But I think you definitely have to create thatbalance between the level of research.
(14:19):
But over time, there's a diminishing return ifyou keep researching without taking any action.
Like you said, And you also mentioned earlier,you didn't follow that rubric and the
traditional structure that other kids followed.
What's your POV on college?
Yeah.
So I definitely have mixed feelings, and Ithink the, I was just chatting with some
(14:41):
friends around this.
I think the pendulum is kind of swinging backthere was an era, and I think and maybe I'm
just biased because this is the time where Iwas making a decision.
But I think, like, maybe like 4 or 5 years ago,there was pretty the pendulum was swinging
towards not going to college.
I think that was, like, really cool and that,like, you know, your teal fellows, like, you
(15:02):
know, pure teal, like, inviting people to dropout and paying for them.
And and just like, I don't know, justculturally, it seemed, like, the kinda, like,
If you wanna do your own thing, don't go tocollege.
That's the right you need to take.
And while I do still believe that there arepeople that probably will be just as successful
or maybe more successful by not going tocollege.
(15:23):
I think that college and and, you know,spending 3 to 4 years of your life in your
early twenties to, like, develop yourself as aperson, to learn what you're interested in, to
meet friends is also not a bad thing.
And, obviously, if you're going into, like, youknow, like, law or, you know, medicine.
Like, obviously, you need to do this.
But as far as, like, entrepreneurs or business,I do think there are, like, There are things
(15:46):
you can attain through it that aren't, like,you know, maybe, like, hard.
Like, you you can't, like, point to them, butthey're kinda, like, soft skills.
That people attain.
And so I'd say, college is is the right pathfor some people.
I think you kinda just need to know yourself.
And I think honestly, the people that know thatare not gonna go to college, like, my advice
(16:06):
won't matter to them.
It's kinda like the the thing of, like, Elonwhen he was, like, asked, like, you know, if if
if if, if you don't wanna, like, eat on chew onglass and stare into the abyss, then starting a
company isn't for you.
He said something something along along thoselines, but he knows the people that are gonna
go do that, like, you know, they're gonna do itno matter what he says.
And so that's kinda the same thing we called.
(16:28):
You kinda know where you you don't.
I know we didn't touch on this much yet.
But when you started the no code agency youhave today, how much did you start the business
with?
Nothing.
Having
Agencies are really great because they requireno upfront capital.
Right?
It's a positive cash flow cycle.
Right?
I mean, when you think about it, You areselling and getting money in the door before
(16:54):
actually delivering the service.
It's it's it's reversed to WestStar would be,which is why startups need to raise money.
And and it's not just agencies.
There's obviously other service businesses.
There's there's probably strategic ways thatyou can, like, do that even in a startup.
But when you can get, you can get creativearound, how do I get money in the door before I
deliver, even if it's like 50%.
So that's what we did.
(17:14):
Right?
So, you know, we we had clients, We would takea 50% deposit, and then I'd use that money to
go hire people to do the work, contractors, andthen I would do the work, and then you get the
other 50%.
And this is something similar to what we spokewith with Neil Parikh on the marketing side and
and getting clients when he started Casper, hehad to be hyper targeted in the marketing.
(17:38):
Right?
He couldn't just put out a bunch of Facebookads and say, hey.
We have these mattresses.
It just wouldn't work.
Right.
So instead, he would send flyers out to peoplewho are just recently moving or college
students that are moving into their new dormroom, which would allow them to be not only
hyper targeted, but get potential customerswhere they're looking for maybe a new mattress.
(18:03):
For your team, when you started, you werereaching companies and and customers, but they
weren't, I guess, they weren't advertisingthat, hey.
We we need help with this.
So how are you getting those initial clients?
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of it, for service businesses,like, one of the big things always just like
word-of-mouth, like referrals.
We had, like, RFPs, which stands for a requestproposals.
(18:27):
So those are like when you go to the platformsthemselves and you partner with them, and then
they send you deal flow.
And so then you're there's also Google ads.
Right?
So, I mean, you've inbound and outboundobviously is pretty basic, but, like, inbound
is, like, you know, Google ads, people, like,intently searching.
I wanna build a product.
And then you have Outbound, which which, we'rekind of pushing out more now because you kind
(18:49):
of tap out of inbound at certain point.
And outbound is like cold emails.
So we experiment a lot with, now organiccontent, doing stuff like like this and and
socials and Twitter.
Just to kinda get the message out around, like,what the capabilities are.
For those who don't know, what is no code andhow far can you take that?
(19:10):
Yeah.
So no code is kind of a new rise in tools thatwe've seen.
There's some, like, kinda more there'sdifferent tiers of no code.
Right?
You have, like, what I call, like, kinda tier1, which I guess you could say is, like, the
OG, WordPress, right?
Oh, WordPress essentially, created this newcategory.
Because at the time, like, coding a just abasic website required, you know, significant
(19:35):
developers, and WordPress slowly bridge thegap.
Then I think you have, like, the second tier,which should be, like, Notion and, like, you
know, tools that, like, are pretty much madefor you, but you can do some configuring.
And, it kinda customize it in some ways.
Then you also have, like, things like Webflowand, Framer, and you can build, like, really
(19:55):
cool websites that are interactive and arecustom.
But where I really hang out is I you guys callit like tier 3 or tier 4, which is like complex
web apps, web applications, mobile apps,etcetera.
And so for those that, like, aren't familiar,there are tools we use bubble, but there are a
bunch of others, where you can essentiallybuild pretty much any kind of web application
(20:20):
using a drag and drop element kind of thing forthe front end.
That's completely custom.
So, like, yeah, you're dragging and dropping,you know, a feed, but that feed is customized,
you know, any anytime you want or any anyhowyou want.
Right?
And then to power the back end, to power thethe logic.
Think of it as, like, if if then statements.
(20:41):
Right?
But, like, building blocks, for those that arefamiliar with Zapier, you know, like, okay.
You're running, like, a automation.
You're this is triggered by Notion, then itlinks to that.
You're essentially doing that, but just, like,internally within the application.
So you're saying, okay, if these are clicksthis button, you're gonna take them to this
page and then Once they fill out this form,you're gonna save that data and you're gonna
create a new item in the database called user.
(21:02):
And the user is gonna have an email and apassword and a name.
Is you're basically just doing these stuff, butit's just like in a flow, like, state.
And so, essentially, it's what's called nocookies.
You don't require any code.
Right?
But I think people have this stigma that'slike, oh, like, you're basically, you know,
stuck to, like, the templated, like, ugly UI,and you can only build, like, so much stuff.
(21:26):
I mean, for reference, like, we wanted to,like, do an experiment to see, like, you know,
everyone loves Airbnb and so we wanted to see,How how far can you actually take this?
And we've taken it, like, honestly, a muchfurther than Airbnb.
Like, we knew that we could we built, like,video editing platforms.
We've done financial apps and health apps.
We've done internal tools that are crunchingnumbers and spreadsheets that are, like, bigger
(21:48):
than you've ever imagined that we can to atool.
But we wanted to see, okay, like, how fast canwe rebuild and design Airbnb?
We wanted to build something called Airbnbteams or Airbnb trips.
The the idea is, like, if you wanna travel withyour friends, picking a place, splitting the
costs, like, you know, kinda just all theresearch that goes into it is pretty annoying.
(22:08):
And it's actually, like, this is a real thingthat I think they should do because I think a
lot of people, you know, whether it's corporateor it's just like a group of friends going to,
you know, Europe for the summer.
They have to deal with picking a place, makingsure everyone agrees with it.
Everybody has the experience of going into thegroup chat and sending a bunch of links.
It's like this one, and then it's like, no.
This one, like, And then that eventually justgets lost.
So we we built a platform as an experiment tosee how fast we could rebuild Airbnb, but with
(22:33):
that, like, additional functionality.
Think we designed it in, like, a week or 2 andthen probably developed in another week or 2,
so all in 3 to 4 weeks.
And we basically had had Airbnb.
You would not be able to tell a difference.
We can leave the link in the description.
Yeah.
That'd be great.
You you would, yeah, you won't you wouldn't beable to now.
And there's a bunch of other apps that, thatwe've, I mean, all our apps, you would not be
able to know.
(22:53):
And these range from, like, yeah, we do somestartup stuff.
We're we're really focused and where we reallythink there's, like, super interesting
upside is again back as the internal tools.
Like, we're we're seeing such a rise in SMBsand enterprises looking to, like, also automate
their systems and, like, replace, like, suchannoying spreadsheets that people have to go
into and manually update and nobody knows,like, what, like, what does what, And it's just
(23:19):
a disaster leads to human error.
And so even a tool that's as simple asreplacing a spreadsheet, for these
organizations, that hundreds of people usesaves like 100 of hours, maybe 1000 of hours a
month, right, which which in return is, youknow, tens of 1000, 100 of 1000, 1,000,000 of
dollars in savings.
So, that that's where we kind of hang out.
(23:40):
And, that's really the capabilities of no code.
You can take it pretty damn far.
In your 1st few months, you've made in the lowfive figure range.
Yep.
How much are you making now?
We do around, I mean, obviously every month isdifferent.
So we work on a subscription model.
So, you know, we're, we're kind of like a afractionalized team for companies.
(24:01):
And so we used to do, like, fixed scopedprojects where you would come in and we'd we'd
price it out and we'd be like, okay, it's gonnacost.
$25, and you're gonna take 3 months and then wedo it.
Now we transition to, like, a purely monthlymodel.
And so it's good because our our monthlyrevenue is more stable.
And it also gives the client a lot moreflexibility around what they can do because
(24:22):
they're not tied in.
But, give or take.
Our average month, we're probably doing around,you know, a $100 a month in in in revenue.
Obviously, sometimes we lose a client, whichcan bring that down since those began a couple.
So I would say, like, 80 to 120 is probablylike the range.
How does it feel to be doing 6 figures a monthin revenue, twenty years old, and managing a
(24:44):
team, some of which are people older thanyourself.
Yeah.
It's cool.
I mean, I don't really think about it likethat.
I think it kinda just feels natural, I guess.
And it's always been like that.
If it was the I also never really worked I hadsome internships, but I never really worked
like a traditional job, which may have, like,maybe if I did, I would I went to cement it in
(25:08):
my head potentially in a negative way becauseit's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be, like,
talking to these people, like, in a leader,like, like, leading them.
Like, So I could see people that, like, that'swhy you have, like, corporate execs who, like,
will try to go work at startups.
And, it will, like, it will never work becauseThey are just unable to, like, function
(25:28):
independently because they are so used topeople, like, telling them what to do.
And so I think I had, like, the opposite ofthat, which is like, I never had someone
telling me what to do.
And so it just kinda was like the inherentthing to do.
One of the founders I met here in New York Citya few weeks ago is this guy named Ryan Sarant.
So he runs this giant real estate.
First, I know.
(25:49):
He's a yeah.
And he has this rule called a 1000 minute rulewhere he tries to get as much value out of
every single minute possible and try not towaste any of it.
Yeah.
How do you value your time and and how do youmake the best out of your time when running the
business?
I think in the early years to set up theinfrastructure, it's, really painful.
(26:11):
I mean, you know, you're dealing with kind ofeverything, especially in the agency business
where, like, Each customer is, like, pivotal tothe business.
So, you know, I was doing, like, delivery.
I was doing, like, a bit of sales, like, youknow, marketing stuff, managing the customer is
excited.
Like, like, you're just playing every hat, but,you know, now we're, like, 4 years into it.
I've established a really good team, but, like,kinda takes all that day to day stuff off my
(26:34):
plate.
And so now I'm really focused on growth andtaking the business to the next level and
refining operations and delivery.
So my days aren't as, like, back to back asthey used to be.
I think that's probably for the best because Ithink at a certain level, you do need time and
breathing room to, like, think about the nextsteps.
(26:55):
And that's kinda where we're at right now,where we're kind of like we've hit these, like,
cool revenue marks, but, like, how do we, youknow, 5 to the business.
So I, I kinda switch between, like, superintense focus where I'm, like, blocking off
things in my calendar and, like, literally,like, tasks, you know, like, and then sometimes
I'm like, nah.
I don't wanna have, like, anything on mycalendar besides a couple meetings, and I,
(27:17):
like, try to spend the day, like, thinking orconsuming media and just, like, understanding,
like, where things are at.
And one of the clients that you got was Eric.
Interrogate Eric as a client.
Yeah.
That that was a a funny one because, he I thinkhis manager posted on Twitter that they were
looking for bubble developers in particular.
(27:38):
And my friend, knew the manager and, made anintro to us.
And that one was, was funny because they cameto us and they're like, we need to, like,
launch in, like, 3 weeks.
And we have, like, kinda half the platformready, and we need somebody to, like, kinda
finish it off.
And so it was, like, super pressing.
Like, we had, like, 3 to 4 weeks, maybe evenless.
(27:59):
Honestly, it was, I think it was, like, 2 or 3weeks.
To basically, like, revamp this whole productbefore I was going live for like millions of
people.
And, we, like, kinda, like, just grinded.
I mean, we, like, dedicated the whole team to,like, just this one project to we really wanted
to impress them too because we knew, like, itwould be kinda cool.
And so we did it, and they're, like, blownaway.
(28:20):
We, like, revamped the designs.
We, like, implant a new front end, and they'relike, oh my god.
This is insane.
And then we ended up working with them, like,probably like 6 to 8 months after that, like,
as they're like full on product team, beforethey, raise just a lot of money.
It just didn't make sense to keep things onbubble.
For a company like that for Crater now, theirconsumer product they're somewhat reliant on,
(28:41):
like, super, you know, big scale.
There's a lot of just, like, integrations therepulling in from YouTube, TikTok, etcetera.
So something like that, it made sense tomigrate and that, you know, they raised a lot
of money.
They could build an internal team to do allthat.
But we took it pretty far.
I mean, we we probably ran their first youknow, doesn't, maybe 5 to 10 cohorts, on that
(29:01):
platform.
You saw an opportunity where a lot of yourcurrent clients ended up wanting to go digital
when when you're starting out the business.
In what way did they wanna do so?
And then how did you how do you help them godigital?
Yeah.
So I mean, like, the one example is there'slike a Tiguan Do studio.
This is like our first client.
And they, like, obviously, all their classesare in person, and they're like, well, That
(29:23):
doesn't work anymore.
So how do we, like, kinda continue drivingvalue?
But, you know, still charging customers in amore virtual way.
And so we built more of, like, a I mean, like,a, like, a fitness platform, basically, like,
where you could, like, tap into live live,accessions and then, like, pre made sessions
and the community features and, you know, stillpay the subscription.
(29:45):
And and that was basically what it was.
It was just kinda to keep the business runningduring COVID.
And today, is your goal to continue buildingout the agency model, or is it to start
building, like, maybe more of a venture studiotype of business.
What what's your long term goal for thecompany?
Yeah.
So we've we've dabbled in the venture studio.
We've done one deal.
(30:06):
With a mutual friend of, that we both know.
And, that one has been so far pretty good.
It's still, like, early to say, but They'veraised a good amount of money from great
investors, and the product is is is being builtreal nice.
And we've done a couple other things.
We've done something with Andrew Young.
If people are familiar with him on Twitter.
There's like, you know, tech parties and stuff.
(30:27):
We built, like, an event networking app for himthat we partnered on I was, you know, bullish
on, like, the whole kind of creator space.
How do you build products for them after doingthe creator now stuff?
I think I realized that it's really hard, to dotwo things.
I I that's something that, like, actually isprobably the number one thing I got wrong.
And probably that most people got wrong isthat, like, they they think that diversifying
(30:49):
their focus is is the safe thing to do.
It's actually, in my my belief is the oppositebecause, like, you're giving each idea, like,
20% of your time.
And that equates to basically nothing.
I mean, like, you to make something to build abusiness, like, you need a 110 percent.
Right?
Like, you you like, even if you think, oh, Ionly need to do this, this, and this today,
(31:12):
like, that's, like, the bare minimum, what youneed to do to just, like, check off the box
Like, how do you, like, take the business tothe next level?
What, what do you need to be doing to take thatextra step?
And you kinda just need to do that every singleday.
That's kinda goes back to, like, obsessing overthe product.
Let's say I'm an entrepreneur.
Right?
And I and I have, like, 5 ideas or 5 thingsthat I'm thinking through.
Each one of them, I convert divert 20 percentof my energy on.
(31:33):
You said, that's probably not the best idea.
Yeah.
How do I know which one I should go all in onand divert a 100% of my energy tours?
Yeah.
I mean, so if there's one that's starting tosee traction, obviously numbers speak louder
than anything.
Right?
So if you have numbers to prove, okay, this isseeing early signals, then, you know, your best
way to do that.
If that's not the case, then I think it justgoes back to, again, like, what do you
(31:57):
genuinely enjoy do doing the most what Whichone excites you the most to wake up to be like,
I think I could spend a 100% of my time doingthis and and just focus on that one and and
like never look back You need to give it atleast, like, a minimum of 6 months before you
make any decisions, if not 12, if not 18.
Like, these things just take like, a long time.
(32:17):
Right?
Like, the exponential growth of businesses isvery surprising.
Right?
Like, the 1st year, nothing really happens.
The 2nd year, something kinda happens.
3rd year, things are happening in the 4th year.
Like, wow.
Like, this is really cool.
And it's a various exponential curve, and soyou need to stick through the first, like, you
know, 6 to 12 months to see that any growth.
(32:37):
What if you learned about building an agencythat Most agency owners don't know or or don't
put enough attention towards.
I mean, we we fall into the trap of, of tryingof a bit, kind of going back to your question.
Like, I think a lot of agency owners fall intothe trap of Agencies are really hard
(33:03):
businesses.
So how do you get out of the agency business?
Right?
Everyone's always thinking, like, agencies isgonna be the 1st, like, 5 to 10,000,000, and
then I'm gonna go do software.
Right?
And so a lot of agency owners try exactly whatI tried is you you go, like, build software
either with partner with people or you justbuild it and you hope, like, it launches us as
a separate, SaaS.
(33:23):
You know, Andrew Wilkinson did did this and it,like, famously failed.
I think that is a, like, really big mistake isthat, like, if you're an agency owner and this
goes back to focus, like, Grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
Right?
Like, you're always gonna look at software andbe like, oh, wow.
Like, they only have to deal with customerheadaches and stuff.
But I think you, like, they're completelydifferent business models, completely, you
(33:47):
know, competing incentives.
And so, you kinda have to pick 1 or the other.
And, obviously, if the agency's already workingout for you, then probably double down on that.
What is your greatest failure?
And what did you learn from it?
Greatest failure.
I don't know if there's, like, one thing thatcomes to mind.
I would say that that software development isreally hard.
(34:12):
A lot of peep people run companies where theyhave to build one product, and that's really
challenging.
And we build a co we run a company that has tobuild multiple different products over and over
and over again.
So think about the process of that is ispretty, like, tough.
I would say that, especially in the early earlydays, we've had projects that, were definitely,
(34:36):
like, harder than expected and probably didn'treach the level of result that we wanted, and
that would really take a toll on me because,you know, I think everyone in the, like,
agencies are just, like, really top.
The those 1st years is really crucial in order,you know, to push out good work, but with
limited resources, limited team, Like, you'rejust playing on, like, 10x, like, hard.
(34:58):
Right?
So I think I wouldn't consider that a failure,but just massive learnings around How do you
actually execute against, you know, scopes?
How do you actually, you know, deliver ourproject that meets, you know, 100% expectations
How do you hire a great team to actuallyexecute that for you?
And, yeah, you kinda just evolve with theprocess and I just, like, obsess over how do I
(35:21):
build, like, the best product over and over andover again.
Because it's one thing to build a good productonce.
It's another thing to build it, like, you know,three times a month.
If, you know, three to four times a month,that's what our that's what we do.
Basically, it's pretty it's a very difficultthing.
And so that would be like my biggest, like,thing that I just have have obsessed advantage
to process and operations.
How did those projects not turn out asexpected?
(35:44):
What what happened there?
The thing about software is there's it's sointricate.
Like, like, and clients oftentimes also aren'tthe best at communicating exactly what they
want because it's so in their head that theyalmost don't even know what they want.
And so I think we worked with a lot of, like,early stage startups or just, like, solo
founders, even that, like, half had half bakedideas.
(36:07):
And, as the project would strum along, theywould start becoming more specific with their
feedback and with what they wanted because itwas, like, they were seeing it.
But when they first came to us and, like,scoped everything out, we would base it off
what they gave us.
Right?
But then all the time, we're showing themdesigns and some, like, and some early
development.
And they're like, oh, so that button should dothat.
(36:27):
And, like, this needs to, like, load like this.
Like, just, like, although the most randomstuff that I'm sure you can, you probably don't
think of when you're using a software.
And so that those stuff would just, like, pileon and on and on and on.
And then it would be like a constant, like,push and pull.
And so that's exactly why we moved away fromfixed projects because, honestly, after years
of trying different processes and differentways to, like, you know, set expectations, I
(36:50):
just realized that the beauty of software isthat it's ever evolving.
It's always changing.
You can't create a fixed stagnant scope forsomething that is always gonna continue to
evolve as the process goes on.
And so, you know, how do we incentivize youknow, both sides is that I think the
subscription model makes a lot of sense becausewe're gonna be their, like, dedicated team.
(37:12):
We're gonna, you know, we're charging like afraction of what they would need to spend, you
know, for a designer, developer, and projectmanager, if they were to go hire those people,
they're getting the same results, if notbetter, because, you know, we've done this a
million times.
And, yeah, they don't need to deal with, like,arguing back and forth because we're just
there.
Like, every month, we'll do exactly what youwanna do.
If you wanna change the whole platform halfwaythrough.
(37:34):
Like, that's fine because at the end of theday, you're basically just paying for our our
resources and time.
So
And you mentioned after that experience, youwanna put a lot more time towards developing
the right processes and and structures.
What were some of those structures andprocesses that you now implement in the
business?
Yeah.
I mean, first off, like, just documenting aprocess and, like, just outlining that is just,
(37:57):
like, the first step.
Right?
I mean, it sounds, like, dumb, but, like, somuch of a process is just like in can be in
your head and, like, just getting that on paperand, like, really thinking through it.
But then, like, it just, like, is alwaysevolving.
I mean, the first process, like, there's no,like, none of it's used anymore.
Right?
And so you just kinda learn, you start tweakingthings, you're like, okay, this could be better
(38:17):
by this, and the client asked for this.
And now we're at the level where we create,like, an asynchronous environment where we
have, like, a suite of, like, automations thatare, like, being triggered to send client
updates and to, like, update here.
And it's, like, it's a machine, basically.
That's, like, operating this.
And now we're taking it one step further.
We build internal tools.
(38:37):
That's basically our main kind of thing that wedo.
We we work with a lot of SMBs Enterprises, andwe help them build really fast, really custom
internal tools.
And I was like, well, you know, we use Notion.
Notion is a great tool.
But it doesn't do everything that I would like.
It's there's some nuances that you need totake, even, like, an extra, like, couple button
(38:58):
clicks.
For a project manager to do.
I mean, it doesn't seem like a lot, but it,especially in in confusions and errors and then
also is at the time to actually do it.
It adds up a lot, not to mention that we're notable to actually build a experience that, like,
matches our process hand to hand.
We're kind of constraint by what Notion allowsus to do or any other project management tool.
(39:21):
And so now we're in the midst of building ourown internal tool.
Kind of, you know, baking your cake and eatingit too.
And we're empowering and using AI to, like,even, like, make our our process even faster
and more automated.
So, like, my goal is, like, how do we, like,completely replace the need for our project
manager?
And, It's, yes, it's kind of a scary thing, butit's also kind of an exciting thing, because I
(39:47):
think that's gonna be pretty possible with withbesides client communications, I think, like,
in our in our case, like, user stories andscoping other project, That's like a lot of the
left.
And I think you can use AI with a platform thatwe're building right now where we're gonna
house all our information.
We're gonna manage clients through, and thenyou just have a layer of AI in that.
(40:09):
Obviously, just using, like, you know, OpenAIor some other model.
But just like, fine tuning it.
So it does exactly what we need to do, and itjust, like, builds it right into the platform.
Right?
So if we click a button, it's gonna, like,generate all series we need, we can move them
across the board.
And it's gonna be pretty cool.
And so that's exactly the stuff that we do forother clients, but now it's like, how do I take
the process to, like, a next level.
(40:31):
Like, automate everything.
Yeah.
I can't remember exactly who said this, but Iremember hearing that Sometimes when companies
decide to build their own internal tools,especially if it's an enterprise company,
they're probably other companies that arelooking for a similar tool.
And if you can just take that internal tool andsay, sell it to a bunch of different companies,
(40:52):
you can make a lot of money off of it.
I think it was Odessa that that did somethinglike that, but but if not, there are definitely
other companies that have become massive justby taking internal tools and then just scaling
it that way.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, beehive.
Right?
Yes.
Beehive is one of them.
Yeah.
They've done that.
They did that.
But but he but, I mean, You could do that.
I think that also, though, goes against kindawhat what I was saying around.
(41:16):
Don't, like, it's so easy for people to, like,look at software and be like, I should make
this my main business.
I think software is probably a lot.
If you're running a business that's successfulthat's doing well, it's generating money that
you're happy with.
Use software to, like, increase efficiency,increase, you know, savings, make more money,
you know, reduce the amount of staff, make yourclients happier.
(41:39):
And ultimately, if you were to sell thebusiness, it'll be worth a lot more because you
have, you know, software that you built inhouse that's custom to you that nobody else
has.
So I'm more in the belief of, like, don't justbuild the software and, like, replicate and let
everyone have it.
Yeah.
Like you said, for existing companies, thatdoesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Like would be, I did.
They spun out a morning bird.
(41:59):
Sure.
Yeah.
It's a great it's a great, like, ideationfunnel, I guess, you could say.
Yeah.
Gotcha.
And outside of lead time, what are some of thekey distinctions between selling to startup
founders and enterprise companies?
Yeah.
I mean, startup founders are actually tougherto work with.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
(42:21):
I saw this I saw this guy, do an interview, andhe was talking.
He's he's in real estate, and he said that youknow, the bigger the deal, the easier it was,
because the people are smarter, they're faster,they know what they're doing, and, you know,
cash is more like, dispensable.
And I think, like, that is super true withpretty much every industry, I think.
The bigger usually the bigger the client theeasier, it gets.
(42:48):
1, because it it's not their money at the endof the day.
Right?
Like, when a founder comes to you and they'relike, we wanna build this and we have $30,000.
And this is my life savings.
There's a lot of pressure on that, And they'regonna try to squeeze that $30,000 out, like,
it's, you know, lemonade.
Right?
Where if, like, a VP at, like, a a Fortune 500company comes along and it's like, hey, we
(43:10):
wanna spend $50 to build this tool.
And we're like, cool.
And and then, like, you know, it ends up takingan extra month And, you know, they, like, spend
a little bit more.
They're like, oh, that's fine.
It's finally off.
So we added some stuff.
Like, they get how this world works, a lotmore.
And, and yeah, they they they just tend to knowwhat they're doing when it comes to working
(43:30):
with vendors and how to, like, make sure theycommunicate the right things and set
expectations.
Everyone's kind of on a on a clear wavelengthfrom the beginning.
And so, yeah, besides the sales process,obviously, that's the one downside is that,
like, they just take a lot longer to close.
But
Got it.
And the last couple of questions, What scaresyou today?
(43:50):
What scares me?
I mean, as as as much as I talk about, AI andstuff, I do think it's kinda concerning,
honestly.
I'm sure we will find a way to evolve, but Ijust don't see it right now.
From what I'm saying, I'm not, like, you know,front and center AI.
Like, I'm I'm just using the tools that are outthere and using them and maybe in a more custom
(44:13):
internal, like, you know, building applicationsaround them.
But, you know, given that what I think we'regonna be able to do for ourselves and what we
do for other companies, I'm generally somewhatconcerned around, like, what what are people
gonna do that aren't, like, the CEO and, like,the executive team?
I think there's there's, like, it's a good andbad, right?
Like, you will have agencies and you'll havecompanies that have a five person executive
(44:36):
team.
And that's it.
And there'll be $1,000,000,000 companies.
It'll be run by AA AI agents and and tools andautomations.
And It will, it will be insane.
I mean, that would a five person company thatprobably should have been, like, a 1000 or 5000
person company will probably just be 5executives and a bunch of now the good thing is
(44:58):
like, wow, that's great.
Like, the business world is probably lovingthat.
Right?
They're like, that's great.
We're gonna make so much money.
It's super cool to see the technologyadvancing.
But on the other side, that's a 1000 jobs thatare now, like, gone like that.
Right?
And so some something needs to make up for it,whether that's, you know, universal basic
income from the AIs.
(45:19):
I mean, I know that's the discussion point.
But I honestly don't think we're that far offfrom a point of where AI will be able to pretty
much replace majority of humans.
Now, will companies actually do that is anotherquestion, but I think capabilities wise, it's
it's pretty close already.
And so I'm kind of part of the problem in a, ina way, but that's just how things are going,
(45:42):
right?
You can't stop it.
I trust a human more than I trust in AI.
Right?
I think I actually think the biggest issue inAI is not the capabilities technically.
I think it's I think it's just a trust.
Like, would is somebody gonna be able to trustin the eye over their clients over a project
manager?
Right?
And that and it's not a capability thingbecause we already know the AI can can do a lot
(46:05):
of that stuff.
It can it can generate documents.
It can generate, you know, site maps and flowsand all that stuff.
It's not about that.
It's like, is is the information that it'sactually providing?
Is it right?
And how how trustworthy are you gonna makethat?
Like, At what point, like, the trust test wouldbe, like, could AI, like, perform, like,
medical assessments?
Like, if we can reach that point of trust,then, like, okay.
(46:25):
Then we can trusted to manage a product or wecan trust it to do a legal document.
And so I think the trust element will take awhile.
I think that'll take decades.
Probably.
I think it will as well because humans are muchmore different to interact with than in AI.
Right?
So we have more things to common with eachother.
It's easier to have conversation.
There's definitely a lot of differences anddistinctions there.
(46:48):
We're an AI.
You're you're typing into a computer orsomething like that.
You don't get to see someone's face in person.
So that's where I think trust is built up,especially That's why I like a lot more in
person meetings, especially when closing alarge deal as I think there's just a lot more
trust that can be built up.
Yep.
With people than than doing it over a screenbecause I feel like that's just harder to do.
(47:08):
Definitely.
But for the last question, if I switch you overa phone, and you could call your sixteen year
old self.
Yeah.
Would you call?
And if so, what would you say?
To be honest, this sounds like a I mean, Icould just say, yeah.
I'd call, and here's what I would say.
I actually don't think I'd call.
(47:29):
Because frankly, like, I don't really, like,look back and be like, I should've done
anything differently.
I mean, I think I'm I think I'm where I'msupposed to be, and hopefully I continue to
propel.
But I think that, like, the mistakes you makeare just part of the process.
Right?
Like, you shouldn't you shouldn't, like, wanna,like, circumnavigate that.
(47:50):
So I I went in call because, yeah, I think Iwas doing the right things at the time.
Honest honestly, like, I was I was very drivenand very focused.
And, yeah, maybe I coulda gave myself a bit ofreassurance around, like, school would be fine.
But also I think that the pressure of of notknowing it would be fine.
Probably drove me to work even harder.
So, so probably not.
(48:11):
That's the power of putting your backup againstthe wall.
Right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, I think that's a great way to end it.
Thanks for taking the time to come on thisshow, Jacob.
I appreciate it.
We'll have a link, down to your website and theepisode description down below, creme digital,
and for anyone listening, if that's somethingyou're interested in, feel free to take a look.
Awesome.
Thanks for having me.
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