August 11, 2025 • 31 mins
Josh Mohrer discusses the journey of developing the Wave app, sharing insights into its early development and the challenges faced, including combating copycats and acquiring users. He emphasizes the importance of overcoming skepticism with a strong work ethic and maintaining a work-life balance. The conversation delves into growth tactics, user acquisition costs, and leveraging Apple search ads. Josh offers entrepreneurial advice, highlighting the importance of speed in execution, idea selection, and key traits for entrepreneurs. He shares controversial opinions on business valuations, discusses stealth recording, and provides personal advice on patience. The episode concludes with lifestyle rules and a mention of the sponsor, Wave.co.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Josh, who are you, and why are you here?
(00:03):
I'm Josh Moore.
I make Wave, the AI recording app.
How much money do you currently make?
So it's at about 6,000,000 ARR.
Maybe more interesting, people use it to recordabout eight thousand hours of audio each day.
Most of that audio is in physical spaces likearound tables like this or at the doctor or on
(00:24):
a walk and talk or things like this.
We also do Zoom recording and all the onlinemeetings, but the vast majority of the use case
is just recording audio in in physical space,getting back words for that audio, and then a
summary.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So when you first start wanting to build outthis app, you didn't really have much, if any,
(00:45):
real coding experience before that, yet, nowyou run one of the most high grossing apps in
that short of a time period in the AI space.
How did you start learning how to code andbeing able to assemble something like this from
scratch without any knowledge of it before?
So the process was sort of baby steps.
(01:06):
Make me an app that does this.
And it was a one page app for the iPhone.
It would record, transcribe through an API, butfrom the phone, send it out, wait, get the
text, send that out to OpenAI, get the summaryback all from the phone.
And I found
So you're basically like prompting ChatGPT
I'm ChatGPT, but the the phone is doing all theoperations.
(01:30):
And but if you close the app, if you swipedaway to another app while it was working
because it takes a few minutes to do all theprocess, it would it would drop.
And so that is how I learned about servers of,like, why a server would be a useful thing to
have for this.
Like, actually, let's just make the phone dothe audio, upload the audio, and then the user
can go away.
(01:51):
And when we're ready, we'll send the data backto the phone.
There was a kind of really like baby stepeducation of learning those things the hard
way.
You mentioned in those first like six to eightmonths of the app, a lot of people are like,
what is this?
Like, what does this actually do?
How does this help me?
And then you had a moment that completelychanged everything where you made a a decision,
(02:16):
and then the app pretty much skyrocketed.
It went from a very low number in ARR to doinga million plus very, very quickly.
What what was the concept of the app before,and what did you do to change it to have that
exponential growth in a very short period oftime?
Doing videos on Meta really hit.
There weren't a lot of apps doing what I wasdoing, and so user acquisition was very
(02:42):
economic.
I was able to do it in a way that made sense.
And that's where a lot of the growth happenedlast year.
It's like doubling every month until a prettylate stage.
Then a lot of copycat showed up and that's sortof a very interesting experience to see apps
that are pixel replicas of your app.
(03:02):
That's, I think, a common experience in the AppStore.
Wasn't angry about it.
It was just sort of like, wow.
I think I'm onto something here.
It made it harder to capture to sort of toacquire new new users because there's a bunch
of apps doing similar things.
So I've had to innovate on that.
But I think there wasn't really a change thathappened in the early days.
(03:27):
I started spending on ads after it became clearthat there was some there there.
So I'm probably at like 10 ks MRR before Istarted doing ads.
I wanted to make sure ROAS I'm not sure howtechnical on these terms the audience
Return on ad spend.
Yeah.
Return on ad spend.
(03:47):
I didn't want to invest in the future, I wantedit to be paid back now.
So the growth was careful on meta.
I worked with some folks who are really good atthat stuff and so that's how it got big in the
beginning.
But a lot of it has been talking to users,letting them give feedback.
I have an upvoting system for feedback.
(04:10):
And so the things that people want, I'll sortof build for them and try to make sure that the
app works the way it's supposed to as close toall the time as it can.
So you mentioned you really started to putmoney into paid acquisition once you hit that
10 MRR number.
What about before that?
What what were you doing to help get to thatfirst $10,000 a month?
(04:30):
I think the App Store is underrated in itsability to drive the discovery of good apps.
So what I mean by that is I think I wasbuilding something that people kinda knew they
wanted, like AI notetaker.
Like, that makes sense.
It's gonna take notes with an AI.
So I started just getting search volume.
(04:51):
I found the audience on LinkedIn was much moreinterested in what I was doing than anywhere
else.
I started talking about it on LinkedIn, doing abunch of updates, emailing out.
I think new technologies like VennWave peoplelike talking about.
I did some podcasts like this early on.
(05:12):
I wouldn't say I'm notable in tech, but I havemore than zero audience because of Uber that
probably helped.
And I think the story has been interesting,like making an app, which is a technical
endeavor without technical experience.
That's a topic of the moment.
And so I think I've ridden that a bit as well.
(05:33):
I heard a story that when you were firststarting out Wave, your mom kind of thought of
the project as like a retirement project.
How did that fuel you, and what what were youthinking behind the scenes?
I probably said that somewhere.
Yeah.
I mean, I think now they know, but it didn't ifyou do $500 in revenue in month one and then a
(05:58):
thousand in month two and two thousand in monththree, to many people that will seem small and
not worthwhile, but I think I knew when thathappened.
Was like, Oh, no.
There's some there there.
Like growth, even super fast growth doesn'tactually just happen overnight.
Like it takes some kind of smooth multiplier, aconsistent compounding every month kind of
(06:24):
multiplier.
So I probably saw the signals that it wasworking before normal people in my life.
And I had done Uber and I did pretty well fromthat.
And I did VC, which I think to casual observersalso feels like a retirement gig.
And so it was sort of like and I was working atLevels for a bit, this tech startup in health
(06:48):
care.
I was there for a couple years.
ChatGPT rolled out kinda the week after I quitthat job.
So I was sort of like on hiatus, this happened,perfect timing.
And I think my parents or my mom at least waslike, It's great.
You have a nice little hobby.
It's super fun.
You made a nap.
That's awesome.
And I think I joked that it wasn't clear topeople around me at the time it was clear to
(07:10):
myself that there was something here, that itwas small, but the growth rate was there and I
was getting signals that indicated to me it wasworth chasing.
And so that was just a time differential therebetween people in my life who know me
personally and my family who are like, that'sJosh's little hobby side project to like, oh,
(07:32):
this is in some ways the most serious thinghe's ever done.
Yeah.
I also noticed that because when we started ourcompany, we were very, very, very small.
Like, first month, we did, like, $2,500.
The second month was, like, $4, and it's, like,very, very small to most people.
So I think I told my parents about it, and,like, okay, nice.
You got a nice little thing going, but still goto school, still do the traditional pass, still
(07:55):
do all that.
And then, so I just kinda kept it under thehood until, like, we reached our first big
revenue mark of, I think it was like 20 to 20 ka month back in January.
And then I told my dad about it, and then hewas like, woah, what?
And I think I think you're right.
Like, from the early stage, especially whenyou're building out a company, a lot of people
(08:16):
think of you as, like, kinda delusional.
And it's one of the things that I've noticedthat if you really want to do something
extraordinary, people have to see you asinsane.
At, like, at 19 now, we're adding, like, a 100k in ARR every month, but it's not because I'm
smarter than every everybody else, it's becauseI move like it's life or death.
And I think you you did a very similar thingwith how hard you pushed at wave.
(08:40):
And I think it's one the things I've noticedthat you have to push so hard that everybody
else calls you delusional and that's the signyou're doing something right.
It's not a good strategy.
It's the only strategy.
Right?
I mean, and I think my situation and tocomplain about this is is obscene, my situation
is a little bit different.
And I think part of why I am a littleflamboyant about the numbers is because I think
(09:07):
almost no one will relate to this and it'salmost a silly thing to even bring up.
But I think in the shadow of a previous largesuccess, it was important to me I really didn't
want to be riding the coattails of what I didat Uber for the rest of my life, and I love
that we spent like a minute on it and we're allabout this.
(09:28):
I finished Uber at age 35 and it was like, Isthat it?
Sort of like I was on a big hit show and thenthe show's over, I was in a band and we had our
one hit and it's over.
That doesn't feel good.
And I felt like doing something, the next thingI had to be clear to the public or to anyone
(09:49):
that I care to have understand this, I had tobe explicit.
And I think transparency, it maybe invitedcopycats, but I think more importantly, it
signaled that this is real, that I want toshare, that this is possible, that if you work
hard, even if you've never done it before, it'sdoable, like all that stuff.
(10:10):
But it's important.
But I really wanted to shift the perceptionthat this was like a retirement that I'm like,
I could be doing golf or I could be playing,you know, you know, whatever or I could be
doing this.
It's like, no.
I'm taking this with the seriousness of a firstthing even though it's not a first thing.
Yeah.
I think that's a really important piece.
(10:32):
So you built it out.
You're now at around 6,000,000 in ARR.
You have no engineers, no co founders, noinvestors, all bootstrapped, and you still,
like you mentioned earlier, still do customersupport.
How do you balance your time?
Badly.
But let me correct some of that.
So there is a new version of the iOS app comingout that was written in Swift, and that was
(10:54):
done by another engineer.
So I did he's not full time with me, but he'samazing and he works.
Well, it's been his main thing for about sixmonths and he's guy.
And I still do the support and I probably willfor a while.
I have a couple people helping on growth in anarm's length type thing.
There are no employees.
(11:15):
I work in a room by myself in my building onthe Upper West Side and I'm open to working
with other people.
But currently in deployment, the code isbasically all me.
And that's gonna change as it should.
It was for a while about like, let me see howfar I could take this on my own.
(11:36):
The reality is it's been a flat few months andso I am trying to change things up to get to
that next level.
Six is good, but it's been six for a fewmonths.
I'd like it to be 10.
And I think, how do I balance my time?
Badly.
I think I like to jump around.
That's part of the freedom.
(11:57):
When a user complains about a thing and they'recompelling, I will sometimes drop what I'm
doing and spend a day fixing that thing.
Because I think it's just good practice.
If you are only ever focused on the mostimportant thing, there are certain things that
are permanently the second or third mostimportant thing.
And if you're only ever working on the firstmost important thing, you'll never get to those
(12:20):
things.
And sometimes it's worthwhile to do that.
And I am open to working with other people,probably not in a full time you come to the
same room that I'm sitting in every day ormaybe even not that you're depending on Wave as
your full time thing, but I'm certain opencertainly open to working with other people.
You mentioned Apple search ads have also beenhighly contributory to the growth of Wave.
(12:45):
How do you approach Apple search ads, and howcan anyone who might be building an app
leverage it to try to grow their app quickly?
So it's true.
I do use Apple search ads.
I didn't actually say that.
I said the Apple search itself is usefulbecause when you give Apple a third of your
revenue, you're getting some things back forthat.
And discoverability and the implicit trust thatif I pay money to this app, my credit card's
(13:09):
not gonna get stolen.
I can unsubscribe easily through thecentralized dashboard.
Not even giving a credit card.
My credit card's already on file.
There's all this psychological stuff that beingan app helps.
Right?
Even if the Stripe screen looks the same onevery website, it's even easier on an app.
So when someone goes to the App Store andsearches AI notes and I'm number four as a
brand new app or whatever, that's amazing.
(13:32):
Separately, I do deploy a ton of Apple searchads, which maybe you knew.
Some of that is brand defense.
So making sure if someone searches WaveAI orWave that I'm up there because competitors bid
on them too.
So some of it is defensive.
Some of it is that Apple's tracking ismaterially degraded for every advertiser except
(13:57):
Apple search ads.
So you don't get such good data when you buy aniOS ad on Meta.
You get a very good data when you do it onApple search ads because of privacy and
monopoly.
So Apple Search Ads have been good.
It's probably my single biggest channel at themoment just to sort of sop up all those
(14:18):
searches.
Like if someone is searching in the App Store,they are bottom of the funnel.
They're ready to go.
This is not discovery.
This is like they're here.
They're ready.
They're there to download.
They're there to party, and they wanna pay youright away.
And so I do a bunch of that.
What do you think is what does the useracquisition cost across all of your paid
(14:38):
channels, and how does that break down?
So like I said, I try to make daily ROAS, likereturn on ad spending, money coming in be more
from those ads than the money, you know, goingout.
That has narrowed it's gotten harder.
So I was able to buy subscribers for 30 or $40on Meta, and the lifetime value of one is quite
(15:03):
a bit higher than that for me.
The annuals are great, monthlies and weekliesare also great, and that worked until it
didn't.
It works on Android pretty well.
Google Ads work for Android pretty well too andApple Search Ads.
I'm trying to get into longer tail stuff.
(15:24):
I have a bunch of video makers making organicseeming TikTok videos, which is a popular way
to grow, I'm told.
It's very much out of my wheelhouse.
The marketing stuff, even though it's where myexperience lies, is the least interesting to
me, so I try to spend as little time on that aspossible.
(15:47):
If somebody is listening to this and they'relike, okay, I wanna be able to get to a
position like you might be in today, but all Ireally have is I don't really have a lot of
money, and all I have is like a laptop and anInternet connection, and I wanna build
something to try to change the world and havean impact on people, What would be your advice
to them?
It's easier than ever to get something outthere, so you should just do it.
(16:08):
And if you're serious, you should do it do itfast and do it hard.
I mean, the reality is, like, there's almost noone who's pulling this off who isn't busting
their ass.
Like, it just isn't.
And I have a nice life.
I take the girls to school every day.
I wear sweatpants.
I look like shit.
The other dads at school are probably like, oh,that guy from Uber just fucking Can I curse on
(16:34):
your podcast?
He just like, you know, he just comes insweatpants.
She's probably like hangs out with his likewife all day.
It's like, no.
It's just that I work in sweatpants.
Like, I walk them to school and I walk home andthen I work all day like obsessively.
I grind super hard all the time.
And that isn't a brag.
If anything, it's an admission of guilt, butthat is actually what it takes.
(16:59):
So if you're not down with that, then don't doit.
But there's no like, yeah, I will casuallyrelease this product and it will casually do
well.
From what I can tell, that's not a thing.
And why is speed important?
What's the opposite?
The opposite is, oh, I have this idea for now.
Gonna make an app, and I've been talking aboutit for a year and I haven't even started yet.
(17:19):
Yeah.
But okay.
Great.
But that is never ever going to happen.
That's fine.
Everyone should have a dream of what they wannado in a fantasy and what keeps them going, but
it's like to actually do it is you actuallyhave to do it and it's hard.
You have to do it all the time a lot.
And look, there are master delegators andmanagers and the notion of the four hour
(17:43):
workweek and drop shipping from back in theday.
People love the fairy tale of the kind of like,it's so simple.
And I think for a master manager, maybe it'spossible, but I'm super bad at that.
Super bad at that.
And AI has only made me lean in more to myworst sensibilities about doing it all myself.
(18:05):
And let's say they also might have two or threeideas that they're considering going after.
How did they figure out which one is worthpursuing and putting that time and energy into?
I definitely got some feedback from peopleabout So two years ago, I was still in the
mode.
There's like inflection moments.
(18:25):
And so I went out to lunch with a buddy.
It's actually like my daughter's friend's dad,who is a good friend also now.
But far enough away from me that I knew itwasn't gonna be like, yeah, way to go, Josh.
Like I knew it was gonna be true what he said.
Having a sense of when someone is real versusyour friend is important.
And so he's like, This feels like the one youshould do.
(18:46):
And I still had a couple of other ideas.
One was about New York State Senate legislationand having AI summaries of that because bills
come out all the time.
And I did politics a little bit at Uber.
It's not what I signed up for, but it was a bigpart of the job.
So I was into that a little bit and I was like,All right, I'll work two weeks on one and two
(19:08):
weeks on the other.
And there was a third thing in the mix too.
And then I just found myself on weeks that Iwas going to work on the other thing, was drawn
back to Wave.
I was like, Oh, I'd rather just do Wave all thetime.
And I was like, Okay, that gut feeling ispretty strong.
I'm going to not do the other stuff.
So that was a big part.
And then when people wanna give you money,August 2023, I would check for sales every day.
(19:33):
One every three days I'd get.
Then one time I got an annual sale for it wasthen $200.
I was like, I just can't believe someone ispaying two I can't wait for someone to buy an
annual subscription of anything.
I'll go on record right now.
I never buy annual anything.
I think that's insane.
I only buy a month.
I don't care how much I'll save because I don'tknow what I'm gonna like in a year, but annual
(19:54):
is part of the culture in the app store forsure.
A lot of people do it.
It's love at first sight.
They want it forever.
And when people started buying annual, I waslike, all right.
They're speaking with their wallet and I'mgonna listen.
And it felt generic enough that the audience isbig so that everyone could have one.
And then that user feedback is just like Andactually, if someone tells you in a fiery rage
(20:20):
how much they hate your app, that is also agood signal It means you've upset them on such
a deep level that there was something importanthappening.
So I get these days more positive thannegative.
Definitely get some negatives.
But the ferocity of those comments, I thinkthere's signal in that.
They're like, how much I hate this or how muchI love this.
(20:42):
What are they like?
The occasion is like, oh, I was recording andsomething happened.
I was like, it says in the logs that your phonerang.
And I can't help that Apple has a limitationthat when your phone rings, audio recording
stops.
That's true in the Apple app.
And I spent a year making that better so thatit resumes and signals to you that you should
(21:04):
turn off ringer and go into not disturb mode,all these things.
But I was trusting it and failed.
And I'm telling you that a little bit as ajoke, although it is true.
But also just people who are like, I get aheartfelt note every day that I screenshot and
send to my wife.
And I'm like, Look, this helped me.
(21:27):
I was with my father who was in hospice and ithelped me navigate that process.
Life's most important moments happen away fromyour desk.
They're not always the meetings, thoughsometimes they're the meetings, but they're
also just everything else.
And remembering stuff is hard and being in themoment is hard.
And you could argue whether humanity is readyfor an always on recording.
(21:51):
I have some opinions about that.
But they're ready for a sometimes recording,and I think it's really hitting with a lot of
people.
And to wrap it up, we have a few closingquestions that we like to end with.
One of which is, what do you think is thenumber one trait that makes a great
entrepreneur?
(22:15):
Think relentlessness, being able to run througha brick wall.
But I don't evaluate entrepreneurs and I don'treally like doing so.
VC wasn't so good for me in that way.
I'm not great at sizing people up from oneconversation.
Some people are great at that.
Maybe I needed Wave for all those moments, butI think relentlessness, a little bit of
(22:41):
obsession, for those early stages at least, forthe zero to one just being crazy.
What do you think is the best piece of adviceyou've ever received?
Yeah, I even heard you ask another guest thaton a previous episode and you think I'd been
like, Who's going to ask me this?
But I didn't.
(23:01):
I think at Uber, Travis, it was one of ourvalues, which was sort of in some ways a silly
exercise, but one of the values was beyourself.
And the success I've had in endeavors haveoften been correlated to how much people were
(23:26):
accepting of me being myself.
And at Uber, Travis, before they were calledour cultural values, said, just be you.
Like you, the way you are, faults and all, isthe right way to be for this, for what we're
doing here.
So be you.
And situations where I've been allowed to leaninto the way I am have been successful.
(23:50):
At Wave, it's just me.
So I can be I only have to negotiate with myfamily.
There's no boss.
So be yourself because that'll probably youknow, it's just hard to not be, I think.
And on the contrary, what do you think is theworst piece of advice you've ever received?
The worst piece of advice.
(24:11):
Oh, I mean well, I don't know.
But I think there's a whole I was so steeped inthe venture backed universe that sometimes,
like, if waiver to stay at 6,000,000 ARR withnet revenue where it is now indefinitely, that
would be awesome.
(24:33):
Because I've only worked in venture backedstartups, first derivative is important.
And so just as 500 a month, a thousand a month,2,000 a month is doubling every month, first
derivative is important to me and having afirst derivative meaning how fast it's growing
or shrinking, being flat gives me some anxiety.
(24:58):
Why?
Shouldn't I still be doubling every month?
Because at Uber that was how it was the wholetime.
It's like just kept Not doubling every month,but 6% a week indefinitely.
Really, that's like doubling every six months Ithink or something like that.
And so it's like that sort of drive you forgetthat if it's just a business, it's not venture
(25:21):
backed.
It doesn't have to become a unicorn.
I'm always asked, will Wade be the first solounicorn?
And it's like, I reject the question becauseunicorn is a construct of venture capital,
which is fine and useful in many scenarios.
But no, no one will ever value WAVE at abillion dollars for a bunch of reasons.
But one of them is that it'll never be valuedin that arbitrary artificial way.
(25:45):
It's just a business that makes money.
It's the corner store of the future.
I sell AI.
I work in a shop.
And of course, I'm the one sweeping the thingevery day because I own it.
I'm the shopkeep.
So I turn up to work every day and I sell mywares on the internet.
And people come in and they talk with me and Italk with them and they buy it or they don't.
(26:07):
And I do that every day.
And it does great.
And next up, what is your most controversialopinion?
My most controversial opinion.
I go with the crowds, man.
Don't have any controversial opinions.
I don't know.
None?
I don't know.
That I think AI wearables will not be a thing.
(26:30):
I don't care if Johnny Ive makes it or if it'sthe Rewind Guys or friend.com or whatever, I
just don't Where the culture is I mean, look, Iwas like, Travis, I don't think UberX is a good
idea.
People don't wanna get into cars with randomstrangers.
I was like, Travis, I don't think Uber Eats Whyare we gonna get into food delivery?
(26:54):
So I have a record of super bad calls aboutthat.
That's not what you're asking though, don'tthink.
But I sort of feel like my little more nuancedview is that I don't think wearables are gonna
happen in mass market.
I think people it's sort of like, I don't thinkactually people wanna be recorded all the time.
I think they wanna be recorded in specifictimes.
I don't think that that's I think a lot offolks think that, so I don't think that that's
(27:18):
controversial.
Most controversial view of all time, there wasnothing wrong with Uber in 'seventeen.
Really?
Yeah.
Of course not.
What if people are starting to get comfortablewith being recorded partially?
So before maybe like five, ten years ago,nobody's being recorded really.
Now people are getting comfortable with beingrecorded part of the time.
(27:41):
Do you think it will eventually transitionwhere everyone's just recording everybody all
the time, and then they'll get comfortable withthat too?
Well, don't know because there's a competitorwho I will not name because they've raised a
gazillion dollars and they're beautiful andawesome and I hate them.
They're doing background recording.
(28:01):
So I see the wearable is one direction.
The passive recording system audio on yourcomputer not visible to people on the meeting
is sort of the opposite direction.
Right?
The sort of stealth recording, don't ask, don'ttell.
I see this with Wave at the doctor.
(28:21):
You wanna record your doctor not because youwanna catch him or her in a problem and sue
them, so you wanna remember what they say.
And 99 times out of one hundred, nine ninetynine out of 1,000 or even more, people are
recording because they just wanna remember.
It's not a trap.
But I think there's still kind of a litigiousculture in medicine and in certain other areas
(28:46):
that make that hard.
I don't know that people are getting morecomfortable with it.
I see the trend of stealth recording.
People are always asking on support like, Iknow I can use WAV to show up to my Zoom with a
square that says Josh is bot, but can I do itwithout people seeing that?
I think there's more of a thirst for privatestealthy recording.
(29:09):
So, yeah, I think the culture is sort of it'snot clear where they are on that.
I think people are still uncomfortable with it,you know, unless there's really no threat.
And last two, if I slid you over a phone
And I had to call the most famous person in thephone?
No.
Not not yet.
Okay.
Sorry.
Oh, my younger self.
(29:30):
Yes.
You I see you did your research.
And you could call your 20 year old self.
Too.
Call your 20 year old self.
So, you know, I wouldn't.
Okay.
But it's that's not the point of the question.
The point of the question is generic.
I think being more patient just in all aspectsof my life would have been beneficial.
I've been good at startups because I'mimpatient and I move really fast.
(29:54):
But there are some areas that a little morepatience, little more hold the stock longer,
wait until you make the fuss about the thing,hold off before you leave the company, chill
out before you make X, Y, Z decision, a littlemore patience.
I've been acting like my hair is on fire andthe world is going to end until I was 20 or
(30:16):
really before that, but really especially sinceI was around that age.
And so maybe just take it easy.
It's a good one.
And now here's the one, who's the most famousperson in your phone?
I don't have any famous people in my I don'tknow famous anybody.
No famous people?
Not really.
Not really.
(30:36):
And if I did, it would be weird to say it here.
Sure.
And last one, what's one rule you live by thatmost people don't?
Well, I don't know.
One rule I live by that most people don't.
Well, go for a run every day if you can.
(30:58):
I think, definitionally, most people don't dothat, but that's a good one.
Why?
Running feels good and it's Well, it feels goodafter and it's a very efficient form of
exercise and it gives you progress.
There are a few things in the world that youcan get better at really just by doing them a
lot.
There are some things like that.
(31:20):
But I could play chess every day and I'veplateaued.
I'm not very good at it and I'm not gonna getany better.
But if you run every day, you can getquantitatively better in factual ways.
And I really like that.
And so I do.
I mean, not every day, but every other day.
I think that's a good way to end it for sure.
(31:41):
Right on.
Well, thanks, Josh, for taking the time to jointhe show.
My pleasure.
Any listeners who haven't checked out Wave yet,please do.
It's in the episode description down below.
Wave.co.
They're beasts.
Wave.co.
Check it out, and thanks for joining.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Josh, who are you, and why are you here?
(00:03):
I'm Josh Moore.
I make Wave, the AI recording app.
How much money do you currently make?
So it's at about 6,000,000 ARR.
Maybe more interesting, people use it to recordabout eight thousand hours of audio each day.
Most of that audio is in physical spaces likearound tables like this or at the doctor or on
(00:24):
a walk and talk or things like this.
We also do Zoom recording and all the onlinemeetings, but the vast majority of the use case
is just recording audio in in physical space,getting back words for that audio, and then a
summary.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So when you first start wanting to build outthis app, you didn't really have much, if any,
(00:45):
real coding experience before that, yet, nowyou run one of the most high grossing apps in
that short of a time period in the AI space.
How did you start learning how to code andbeing able to assemble something like this from
scratch without any knowledge of it before?
So the process was sort of baby steps.
(01:06):
Make me an app that does this.
And it was a one page app for the iPhone.
It would record, transcribe through an API, butfrom the phone, send it out, wait, get the
text, send that out to OpenAI, get the summaryback all from the phone.
And I found
So you're basically like prompting ChatGPT
I'm ChatGPT, but the the phone is doing all theoperations.
(01:30):
And but if you close the app, if you swipedaway to another app while it was working
because it takes a few minutes to do all theprocess, it would it would drop.
And so that is how I learned about servers of,like, why a server would be a useful thing to
have for this.
Like, actually, let's just make the phone dothe audio, upload the audio, and then the user
can go away.
(01:51):
And when we're ready, we'll send the data backto the phone.
There was a kind of really like baby stepeducation of learning those things the hard
way.
You mentioned in those first like six to eightmonths of the app, a lot of people are like,
what is this?
Like, what does this actually do?
How does this help me?
And then you had a moment that completelychanged everything where you made a a decision,
(02:16):
and then the app pretty much skyrocketed.
It went from a very low number in ARR to doinga million plus very, very quickly.
What what was the concept of the app before,and what did you do to change it to have that
exponential growth in a very short period oftime?
Doing videos on Meta really hit.
There weren't a lot of apps doing what I wasdoing, and so user acquisition was very
(02:42):
economic.
I was able to do it in a way that made sense.
And that's where a lot of the growth happenedlast year.
It's like doubling every month until a prettylate stage.
Then a lot of copycat showed up and that's sortof a very interesting experience to see apps
that are pixel replicas of your app.
(03:02):
That's, I think, a common experience in the AppStore.
Wasn't angry about it.
It was just sort of like, wow.
I think I'm onto something here.
It made it harder to capture to sort of toacquire new new users because there's a bunch
of apps doing similar things.
So I've had to innovate on that.
But I think there wasn't really a change thathappened in the early days.
(03:27):
I started spending on ads after it became clearthat there was some there there.
So I'm probably at like 10 ks MRR before Istarted doing ads.
I wanted to make sure ROAS I'm not sure howtechnical on these terms the audience
Return on ad spend.
Yeah.
Return on ad spend.
(03:47):
I didn't want to invest in the future, I wantedit to be paid back now.
So the growth was careful on meta.
I worked with some folks who are really good atthat stuff and so that's how it got big in the
beginning.
But a lot of it has been talking to users,letting them give feedback.
I have an upvoting system for feedback.
(04:10):
And so the things that people want, I'll sortof build for them and try to make sure that the
app works the way it's supposed to as close toall the time as it can.
So you mentioned you really started to putmoney into paid acquisition once you hit that
10 MRR number.
What about before that?
What what were you doing to help get to thatfirst $10,000 a month?
(04:30):
I think the App Store is underrated in itsability to drive the discovery of good apps.
So what I mean by that is I think I wasbuilding something that people kinda knew they
wanted, like AI notetaker.
Like, that makes sense.
It's gonna take notes with an AI.
So I started just getting search volume.
(04:51):
I found the audience on LinkedIn was much moreinterested in what I was doing than anywhere
else.
I started talking about it on LinkedIn, doing abunch of updates, emailing out.
I think new technologies like VennWave peoplelike talking about.
I did some podcasts like this early on.
(05:12):
I wouldn't say I'm notable in tech, but I havemore than zero audience because of Uber that
probably helped.
And I think the story has been interesting,like making an app, which is a technical
endeavor without technical experience.
That's a topic of the moment.
And so I think I've ridden that a bit as well.
(05:33):
I heard a story that when you were firststarting out Wave, your mom kind of thought of
the project as like a retirement project.
How did that fuel you, and what what were youthinking behind the scenes?
I probably said that somewhere.
Yeah.
I mean, I think now they know, but it didn't ifyou do $500 in revenue in month one and then a
(05:58):
thousand in month two and two thousand in monththree, to many people that will seem small and
not worthwhile, but I think I knew when thathappened.
Was like, Oh, no.
There's some there there.
Like growth, even super fast growth doesn'tactually just happen overnight.
Like it takes some kind of smooth multiplier, aconsistent compounding every month kind of
(06:24):
multiplier.
So I probably saw the signals that it wasworking before normal people in my life.
And I had done Uber and I did pretty well fromthat.
And I did VC, which I think to casual observersalso feels like a retirement gig.
And so it was sort of like and I was working atLevels for a bit, this tech startup in health
(06:48):
care.
I was there for a couple years.
ChatGPT rolled out kinda the week after I quitthat job.
So I was sort of like on hiatus, this happened,perfect timing.
And I think my parents or my mom at least waslike, It's great.
You have a nice little hobby.
It's super fun.
You made a nap.
That's awesome.
And I think I joked that it wasn't clear topeople around me at the time it was clear to
(07:10):
myself that there was something here, that itwas small, but the growth rate was there and I
was getting signals that indicated to me it wasworth chasing.
And so that was just a time differential therebetween people in my life who know me
personally and my family who are like, that'sJosh's little hobby side project to like, oh,
(07:32):
this is in some ways the most serious thinghe's ever done.
Yeah.
I also noticed that because when we started ourcompany, we were very, very, very small.
Like, first month, we did, like, $2,500.
The second month was, like, $4, and it's, like,very, very small to most people.
So I think I told my parents about it, and,like, okay, nice.
You got a nice little thing going, but still goto school, still do the traditional pass, still
(07:55):
do all that.
And then, so I just kinda kept it under thehood until, like, we reached our first big
revenue mark of, I think it was like 20 to 20 ka month back in January.
And then I told my dad about it, and then hewas like, woah, what?
And I think I think you're right.
Like, from the early stage, especially whenyou're building out a company, a lot of people
(08:16):
think of you as, like, kinda delusional.
And it's one of the things that I've noticedthat if you really want to do something
extraordinary, people have to see you asinsane.
At, like, at 19 now, we're adding, like, a 100k in ARR every month, but it's not because I'm
smarter than every everybody else, it's becauseI move like it's life or death.
And I think you you did a very similar thingwith how hard you pushed at wave.
(08:40):
And I think it's one the things I've noticedthat you have to push so hard that everybody
else calls you delusional and that's the signyou're doing something right.
It's not a good strategy.
It's the only strategy.
Right?
I mean, and I think my situation and tocomplain about this is is obscene, my situation
is a little bit different.
And I think part of why I am a littleflamboyant about the numbers is because I think
(09:07):
almost no one will relate to this and it'salmost a silly thing to even bring up.
But I think in the shadow of a previous largesuccess, it was important to me I really didn't
want to be riding the coattails of what I didat Uber for the rest of my life, and I love
that we spent like a minute on it and we're allabout this.
(09:28):
I finished Uber at age 35 and it was like, Isthat it?
Sort of like I was on a big hit show and thenthe show's over, I was in a band and we had our
one hit and it's over.
That doesn't feel good.
And I felt like doing something, the next thingI had to be clear to the public or to anyone
(09:49):
that I care to have understand this, I had tobe explicit.
And I think transparency, it maybe invitedcopycats, but I think more importantly, it
signaled that this is real, that I want toshare, that this is possible, that if you work
hard, even if you've never done it before, it'sdoable, like all that stuff.
(10:10):
But it's important.
But I really wanted to shift the perceptionthat this was like a retirement that I'm like,
I could be doing golf or I could be playing,you know, you know, whatever or I could be
doing this.
It's like, no.
I'm taking this with the seriousness of a firstthing even though it's not a first thing.
Yeah.
I think that's a really important piece.
(10:32):
So you built it out.
You're now at around 6,000,000 in ARR.
You have no engineers, no co founders, noinvestors, all bootstrapped, and you still,
like you mentioned earlier, still do customersupport.
How do you balance your time?
Badly.
But let me correct some of that.
So there is a new version of the iOS app comingout that was written in Swift, and that was
(10:54):
done by another engineer.
So I did he's not full time with me, but he'samazing and he works.
Well, it's been his main thing for about sixmonths and he's guy.
And I still do the support and I probably willfor a while.
I have a couple people helping on growth in anarm's length type thing.
There are no employees.
(11:15):
I work in a room by myself in my building onthe Upper West Side and I'm open to working
with other people.
But currently in deployment, the code isbasically all me.
And that's gonna change as it should.
It was for a while about like, let me see howfar I could take this on my own.
(11:36):
The reality is it's been a flat few months andso I am trying to change things up to get to
that next level.
Six is good, but it's been six for a fewmonths.
I'd like it to be 10.
And I think, how do I balance my time?
Badly.
I think I like to jump around.
That's part of the freedom.
(11:57):
When a user complains about a thing and they'recompelling, I will sometimes drop what I'm
doing and spend a day fixing that thing.
Because I think it's just good practice.
If you are only ever focused on the mostimportant thing, there are certain things that
are permanently the second or third mostimportant thing.
And if you're only ever working on the firstmost important thing, you'll never get to those
(12:20):
things.
And sometimes it's worthwhile to do that.
And I am open to working with other people,probably not in a full time you come to the
same room that I'm sitting in every day ormaybe even not that you're depending on Wave as
your full time thing, but I'm certain opencertainly open to working with other people.
You mentioned Apple search ads have also beenhighly contributory to the growth of Wave.
(12:45):
How do you approach Apple search ads, and howcan anyone who might be building an app
leverage it to try to grow their app quickly?
So it's true.
I do use Apple search ads.
I didn't actually say that.
I said the Apple search itself is usefulbecause when you give Apple a third of your
revenue, you're getting some things back forthat.
And discoverability and the implicit trust thatif I pay money to this app, my credit card's
(13:09):
not gonna get stolen.
I can unsubscribe easily through thecentralized dashboard.
Not even giving a credit card.
My credit card's already on file.
There's all this psychological stuff that beingan app helps.
Right?
Even if the Stripe screen looks the same onevery website, it's even easier on an app.
So when someone goes to the App Store andsearches AI notes and I'm number four as a
brand new app or whatever, that's amazing.
(13:32):
Separately, I do deploy a ton of Apple searchads, which maybe you knew.
Some of that is brand defense.
So making sure if someone searches WaveAI orWave that I'm up there because competitors bid
on them too.
So some of it is defensive.
Some of it is that Apple's tracking ismaterially degraded for every advertiser except
(13:57):
Apple search ads.
So you don't get such good data when you buy aniOS ad on Meta.
You get a very good data when you do it onApple search ads because of privacy and
monopoly.
So Apple Search Ads have been good.
It's probably my single biggest channel at themoment just to sort of sop up all those
(14:18):
searches.
Like if someone is searching in the App Store,they are bottom of the funnel.
They're ready to go.
This is not discovery.
This is like they're here.
They're ready.
They're there to download.
They're there to party, and they wanna pay youright away.
And so I do a bunch of that.
What do you think is what does the useracquisition cost across all of your paid
(14:38):
channels, and how does that break down?
So like I said, I try to make daily ROAS, likereturn on ad spending, money coming in be more
from those ads than the money, you know, goingout.
That has narrowed it's gotten harder.
So I was able to buy subscribers for 30 or $40on Meta, and the lifetime value of one is quite
(15:03):
a bit higher than that for me.
The annuals are great, monthlies and weekliesare also great, and that worked until it
didn't.
It works on Android pretty well.
Google Ads work for Android pretty well too andApple Search Ads.
I'm trying to get into longer tail stuff.
(15:24):
I have a bunch of video makers making organicseeming TikTok videos, which is a popular way
to grow, I'm told.
It's very much out of my wheelhouse.
The marketing stuff, even though it's where myexperience lies, is the least interesting to
me, so I try to spend as little time on that aspossible.
(15:47):
If somebody is listening to this and they'relike, okay, I wanna be able to get to a
position like you might be in today, but all Ireally have is I don't really have a lot of
money, and all I have is like a laptop and anInternet connection, and I wanna build
something to try to change the world and havean impact on people, What would be your advice
to them?
It's easier than ever to get something outthere, so you should just do it.
(16:08):
And if you're serious, you should do it do itfast and do it hard.
I mean, the reality is, like, there's almost noone who's pulling this off who isn't busting
their ass.
Like, it just isn't.
And I have a nice life.
I take the girls to school every day.
I wear sweatpants.
I look like shit.
The other dads at school are probably like, oh,that guy from Uber just fucking Can I curse on
(16:34):
your podcast?
He just like, you know, he just comes insweatpants.
She's probably like hangs out with his likewife all day.
It's like, no.
It's just that I work in sweatpants.
Like, I walk them to school and I walk home andthen I work all day like obsessively.
I grind super hard all the time.
And that isn't a brag.
If anything, it's an admission of guilt, butthat is actually what it takes.
(16:59):
So if you're not down with that, then don't doit.
But there's no like, yeah, I will casuallyrelease this product and it will casually do
well.
From what I can tell, that's not a thing.
And why is speed important?
What's the opposite?
The opposite is, oh, I have this idea for now.
Gonna make an app, and I've been talking aboutit for a year and I haven't even started yet.
(17:19):
Yeah.
But okay.
Great.
But that is never ever going to happen.
That's fine.
Everyone should have a dream of what they wannado in a fantasy and what keeps them going, but
it's like to actually do it is you actuallyhave to do it and it's hard.
You have to do it all the time a lot.
And look, there are master delegators andmanagers and the notion of the four hour
(17:43):
workweek and drop shipping from back in theday.
People love the fairy tale of the kind of like,it's so simple.
And I think for a master manager, maybe it'spossible, but I'm super bad at that.
Super bad at that.
And AI has only made me lean in more to myworst sensibilities about doing it all myself.
(18:05):
And let's say they also might have two or threeideas that they're considering going after.
How did they figure out which one is worthpursuing and putting that time and energy into?
I definitely got some feedback from peopleabout So two years ago, I was still in the
mode.
There's like inflection moments.
(18:25):
And so I went out to lunch with a buddy.
It's actually like my daughter's friend's dad,who is a good friend also now.
But far enough away from me that I knew itwasn't gonna be like, yeah, way to go, Josh.
Like I knew it was gonna be true what he said.
Having a sense of when someone is real versusyour friend is important.
And so he's like, This feels like the one youshould do.
(18:46):
And I still had a couple of other ideas.
One was about New York State Senate legislationand having AI summaries of that because bills
come out all the time.
And I did politics a little bit at Uber.
It's not what I signed up for, but it was a bigpart of the job.
So I was into that a little bit and I was like,All right, I'll work two weeks on one and two
(19:08):
weeks on the other.
And there was a third thing in the mix too.
And then I just found myself on weeks that Iwas going to work on the other thing, was drawn
back to Wave.
I was like, Oh, I'd rather just do Wave all thetime.
And I was like, Okay, that gut feeling ispretty strong.
I'm going to not do the other stuff.
So that was a big part.
And then when people wanna give you money,August 2023, I would check for sales every day.
(19:33):
One every three days I'd get.
Then one time I got an annual sale for it wasthen $200.
I was like, I just can't believe someone ispaying two I can't wait for someone to buy an
annual subscription of anything.
I'll go on record right now.
I never buy annual anything.
I think that's insane.
I only buy a month.
I don't care how much I'll save because I don'tknow what I'm gonna like in a year, but annual
(19:54):
is part of the culture in the app store forsure.
A lot of people do it.
It's love at first sight.
They want it forever.
And when people started buying annual, I waslike, all right.
They're speaking with their wallet and I'mgonna listen.
And it felt generic enough that the audience isbig so that everyone could have one.
And then that user feedback is just like Andactually, if someone tells you in a fiery rage
(20:20):
how much they hate your app, that is also agood signal It means you've upset them on such
a deep level that there was something importanthappening.
So I get these days more positive thannegative.
Definitely get some negatives.
But the ferocity of those comments, I thinkthere's signal in that.
They're like, how much I hate this or how muchI love this.
(20:42):
What are they like?
The occasion is like, oh, I was recording andsomething happened.
I was like, it says in the logs that your phonerang.
And I can't help that Apple has a limitationthat when your phone rings, audio recording
stops.
That's true in the Apple app.
And I spent a year making that better so thatit resumes and signals to you that you should
(21:04):
turn off ringer and go into not disturb mode,all these things.
But I was trusting it and failed.
And I'm telling you that a little bit as ajoke, although it is true.
But also just people who are like, I get aheartfelt note every day that I screenshot and
send to my wife.
And I'm like, Look, this helped me.
(21:27):
I was with my father who was in hospice and ithelped me navigate that process.
Life's most important moments happen away fromyour desk.
They're not always the meetings, thoughsometimes they're the meetings, but they're
also just everything else.
And remembering stuff is hard and being in themoment is hard.
And you could argue whether humanity is readyfor an always on recording.
(21:51):
I have some opinions about that.
But they're ready for a sometimes recording,and I think it's really hitting with a lot of
people.
And to wrap it up, we have a few closingquestions that we like to end with.
One of which is, what do you think is thenumber one trait that makes a great
entrepreneur?
(22:15):
Think relentlessness, being able to run througha brick wall.
But I don't evaluate entrepreneurs and I don'treally like doing so.
VC wasn't so good for me in that way.
I'm not great at sizing people up from oneconversation.
Some people are great at that.
Maybe I needed Wave for all those moments, butI think relentlessness, a little bit of
(22:41):
obsession, for those early stages at least, forthe zero to one just being crazy.
What do you think is the best piece of adviceyou've ever received?
Yeah, I even heard you ask another guest thaton a previous episode and you think I'd been
like, Who's going to ask me this?
But I didn't.
(23:01):
I think at Uber, Travis, it was one of ourvalues, which was sort of in some ways a silly
exercise, but one of the values was beyourself.
And the success I've had in endeavors haveoften been correlated to how much people were
(23:26):
accepting of me being myself.
And at Uber, Travis, before they were calledour cultural values, said, just be you.
Like you, the way you are, faults and all, isthe right way to be for this, for what we're
doing here.
So be you.
And situations where I've been allowed to leaninto the way I am have been successful.
(23:50):
At Wave, it's just me.
So I can be I only have to negotiate with myfamily.
There's no boss.
So be yourself because that'll probably youknow, it's just hard to not be, I think.
And on the contrary, what do you think is theworst piece of advice you've ever received?
The worst piece of advice.
(24:11):
Oh, I mean well, I don't know.
But I think there's a whole I was so steeped inthe venture backed universe that sometimes,
like, if waiver to stay at 6,000,000 ARR withnet revenue where it is now indefinitely, that
would be awesome.
(24:33):
Because I've only worked in venture backedstartups, first derivative is important.
And so just as 500 a month, a thousand a month,2,000 a month is doubling every month, first
derivative is important to me and having afirst derivative meaning how fast it's growing
or shrinking, being flat gives me some anxiety.
(24:58):
Why?
Shouldn't I still be doubling every month?
Because at Uber that was how it was the wholetime.
It's like just kept Not doubling every month,but 6% a week indefinitely.
Really, that's like doubling every six months Ithink or something like that.
And so it's like that sort of drive you forgetthat if it's just a business, it's not venture
(25:21):
backed.
It doesn't have to become a unicorn.
I'm always asked, will Wade be the first solounicorn?
And it's like, I reject the question becauseunicorn is a construct of venture capital,
which is fine and useful in many scenarios.
But no, no one will ever value WAVE at abillion dollars for a bunch of reasons.
But one of them is that it'll never be valuedin that arbitrary artificial way.
(25:45):
It's just a business that makes money.
It's the corner store of the future.
I sell AI.
I work in a shop.
And of course, I'm the one sweeping the thingevery day because I own it.
I'm the shopkeep.
So I turn up to work every day and I sell mywares on the internet.
And people come in and they talk with me and Italk with them and they buy it or they don't.
(26:07):
And I do that every day.
And it does great.
And next up, what is your most controversialopinion?
My most controversial opinion.
I go with the crowds, man.
Don't have any controversial opinions.
I don't know.
None?
I don't know.
That I think AI wearables will not be a thing.
(26:30):
I don't care if Johnny Ive makes it or if it'sthe Rewind Guys or friend.com or whatever, I
just don't Where the culture is I mean, look, Iwas like, Travis, I don't think UberX is a good
idea.
People don't wanna get into cars with randomstrangers.
I was like, Travis, I don't think Uber Eats Whyare we gonna get into food delivery?
(26:54):
So I have a record of super bad calls aboutthat.
That's not what you're asking though, don'tthink.
But I sort of feel like my little more nuancedview is that I don't think wearables are gonna
happen in mass market.
I think people it's sort of like, I don't thinkactually people wanna be recorded all the time.
I think they wanna be recorded in specifictimes.
I don't think that that's I think a lot offolks think that, so I don't think that that's
(27:18):
controversial.
Most controversial view of all time, there wasnothing wrong with Uber in 'seventeen.
Really?
Yeah.
Of course not.
What if people are starting to get comfortablewith being recorded partially?
So before maybe like five, ten years ago,nobody's being recorded really.
Now people are getting comfortable with beingrecorded part of the time.
(27:41):
Do you think it will eventually transitionwhere everyone's just recording everybody all
the time, and then they'll get comfortable withthat too?
Well, don't know because there's a competitorwho I will not name because they've raised a
gazillion dollars and they're beautiful andawesome and I hate them.
They're doing background recording.
(28:01):
So I see the wearable is one direction.
The passive recording system audio on yourcomputer not visible to people on the meeting
is sort of the opposite direction.
Right?
The sort of stealth recording, don't ask, don'ttell.
I see this with Wave at the doctor.
(28:21):
You wanna record your doctor not because youwanna catch him or her in a problem and sue
them, so you wanna remember what they say.
And 99 times out of one hundred, nine ninetynine out of 1,000 or even more, people are
recording because they just wanna remember.
It's not a trap.
But I think there's still kind of a litigiousculture in medicine and in certain other areas
(28:46):
that make that hard.
I don't know that people are getting morecomfortable with it.
I see the trend of stealth recording.
People are always asking on support like, Iknow I can use WAV to show up to my Zoom with a
square that says Josh is bot, but can I do itwithout people seeing that?
I think there's more of a thirst for privatestealthy recording.
(29:09):
So, yeah, I think the culture is sort of it'snot clear where they are on that.
I think people are still uncomfortable with it,you know, unless there's really no threat.
And last two, if I slid you over a phone
And I had to call the most famous person in thephone?
No.
Not not yet.
Okay.
Sorry.
Oh, my younger self.
(29:30):
Yes.
You I see you did your research.
And you could call your 20 year old self.
Too.
Call your 20 year old self.
So, you know, I wouldn't.
Okay.
But it's that's not the point of the question.
The point of the question is generic.
I think being more patient just in all aspectsof my life would have been beneficial.
I've been good at startups because I'mimpatient and I move really fast.
(29:54):
But there are some areas that a little morepatience, little more hold the stock longer,
wait until you make the fuss about the thing,hold off before you leave the company, chill
out before you make X, Y, Z decision, a littlemore patience.
I've been acting like my hair is on fire andthe world is going to end until I was 20 or
(30:16):
really before that, but really especially sinceI was around that age.
And so maybe just take it easy.
It's a good one.
And now here's the one, who's the most famousperson in your phone?
I don't have any famous people in my I don'tknow famous anybody.
No famous people?
Not really.
Not really.
(30:36):
And if I did, it would be weird to say it here.
Sure.
And last one, what's one rule you live by thatmost people don't?
Well, I don't know.
One rule I live by that most people don't.
Well, go for a run every day if you can.
(30:58):
I think, definitionally, most people don't dothat, but that's a good one.
Why?
Running feels good and it's Well, it feels goodafter and it's a very efficient form of
exercise and it gives you progress.
There are a few things in the world that youcan get better at really just by doing them a
lot.
There are some things like that.
(31:20):
But I could play chess every day and I'veplateaued.
I'm not very good at it and I'm not gonna getany better.
But if you run every day, you can getquantitatively better in factual ways.
And I really like that.
And so I do.
I mean, not every day, but every other day.
I think that's a good way to end it for sure.
(31:41):
Right on.
Well, thanks, Josh, for taking the time to jointhe show.
My pleasure.
Any listeners who haven't checked out Wave yet,please do.
It's in the episode description down below.
Wave.co.
They're beasts.
Wave.co.
Check it out, and thanks for joining.
Thank you.
Awesome.
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