Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So much of of my journeyprofessionally and personally
has been about finding likeminded individuals,
whether they're they're gayor they're straight.
You can't underestimate thepower of of finding people
who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ communitybe without our allies?
And so finding allies withinthe company who can who can
(00:22):
mentor you, whereyou feel comfortable asking
those questions, asking foradvice on how you might
navigate coming out or sharingyour personal story.
People within that culture willbe will be super helpful.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a biweeklypodcast that showcases personal
(00:45):
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcomeGail Overman, who's the chief
(01:06):
marketing officerat iHeartMedia, where she
leverages the company'sextensive range of content
experiences and technologies tobring brands together with
consumers across all ofthe company's businesses.
She's also served as chiefmarketing and ideas officer at
IPG Media Brands and beforethat spent 16 years at
(01:26):
Microsoft as chiefcreative officer, where she was
responsible for the company'sportfolio of brands and
all global advertising.
Gail, thank you so much fortaking time out of your
schedule to be onthe show today.
Oh, thanks, David.
Great to be here.
Well, you know, before Iget started, I wanted to to say
a special thank you to you andyour team for the creation of
(01:46):
and the continued support ofthe Outspoken Podcast Network.
We appreciate youcreating a platform to
spotlight Lgbtq+ Voices.
I personally love listening toRosie O'Donnell's new
podcast, Onward.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the reception of this and
the importance of the network?
Sure.
(02:07):
You know, it's interesting.
We.
When we were just getting intopodcasting a few years back,
we I was on the board of anorganization called Makers that
does a lot of important workaround gender equality.
And every year at their bigannual event, they would
encourage all of the boardmembers to get up on a stage at
a big public event and make acommitment to gender equality.
(02:31):
And this was the year, like Isaid, we had we had just
acquired stuff media, and wewere just starting to really
build ouriHeart podcast network.
And I called the headof our iHeart podcast network
and said, Hey, I wasabout to make a commitment.
I think podcasting is going tobe such an interesting area,
(02:51):
and if we don't overtly andproactively think about
equality and who we give themic to will probably repeat the
mistakes of past media and itjust as pod before podcasting
was starting to explode, we hada great conversation with some
of our execs about howcould we, how could we hold
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ourselves accountable and howcan we proactively think about
equality and diversity as webuild a new medium that we
hoped would become as big as ithas is the number one podcast
network that we've now built.
And so we made a publiccommitment at that Makers event
years back to ensure that atleast 50% of our creators and
(03:37):
our investments in newpodcasts were diverse.
And that reflected, you know,all types of diversity.
So gender equality andrace and sexuality.
And that led to some amazing,amazing projects, including the
outspoken network where weintentionally make sure that we
(03:58):
are getting behind LGBTQcreators and we're giving them
the mic and lettingthem create, whether it's,
you know, sports or comedy orstorytelling or true crime or,
you know, whatever genre theywant to create in.
We've been really diligent.
We created the Black EffectPodcast Network has a lot of
(04:19):
hit shows, the Michael Torahpodcast network that's building
a lot of big hitswith a lot of amazing creators.
And now we're just beginningthat journey with
Outspoken as well.
So we're really proudof that work.
And it came out of just asking,asking the question.
Yeah, right.
Well, well, I'm certainlygrateful for it.
(04:40):
And we're sitting here today,you know, to to talk a little
bit about it fromour own perspective.
So I really appreciate the timetoday and we could
jump right in.
So I'm I'm really interestedto hear, um,
your experience with, you know,coming to terms with
your own identity and,and working towards your own
(05:00):
authenticity in the workplace.
So can you tell us a little bitabout when you came out,
what was your experience,just your point of view on
the on, on, on coming andbecoming more of yourself in
the workplace?
Sure.
You know, I often tellpeople like, you know, I think
I've been incredibly fortunateprofessionally as I've sort of
(05:22):
come to terms with my identityand my own journey.
And I've been really fortunateand lucky think to work with
and for a lot of humans whowere very supportive and
understandingabout that journey.
When I started in my early addays on the agency side in
advertising and PR, you know,I had a couple of, uh,
(05:46):
bosses who were in, in theinner inner circle who were
legitimate friends who werehelping me personally
and therefore professionally.
There was never some big ahacoming out moment because I was
working with peoplewho were friends.
And that's always a luxury inany time and any point
in your career.
And then somewhere in the inthe mid 90s I, I got a call
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from someone at Microsoft.
We had pitched some business,we didn't win with them and I'd
met some people and they weretrying to recruit me to come to
Redmond and work on some early,early internet projects.
And in retrospect, you know,I didn't even probably fully
understand the power of thisat the time.
But in retrospect, the personwho who hired me at Microsoft,
(06:35):
he was just amazing,amazing technology
and creative genius.
And and he had gotten my cardfrom someone and the CMO at
Microsoft and and called me athome one night back
before cell phones.
And we hadthis incredible conversation.
We just clicked.
And he was sosmart and interesting.
And then it didn't even occurto me until later that that
(07:00):
whole process of inviting meout to interview for a secret
job on a.
Project on the Internet that Ibarely even been on.
He never used pronouns.
If we didn't even use.
We didn't talk about pronounsback then, right?
Yeah.
And and he, you know,there were certain
things like, hey, we want tofly you out to interview if it
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could be, you know,we'd love to meet you.
And if, if there's anyoneimportant enough to you that
you'd like to bring them withyou out to Redmond, we'd love
to pay for that.
Wow.
And it kind of went the sameway on the job offer.
And then I took the job andthere were domestic partner
benefits in 1996, and that'show far ahead
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Microsoft really was.
And full credit to the theexecutive team there back
in the day.
They really were way ahead of,I think, the trends in in
really making it easy to findthe smartest, most, you know,
experienced, best,most passionate people and make
it easy for them tocome work at that company.
(08:07):
It's amazing.
I mean, it's great to hearabout that because my very
first job also in theearly 90s, um, my boss at the
time I receivedtwo holiday party invitations,
didn't know why, didn't knowwhat was going on at the time.
I had quietly come out.
(08:29):
And yet I think he clearly hadheard that or figured that out.
And one was to hisquote unquote, gay party and
one was to his non-gay party.
And so it really is, you know,for I think, those that have
been before us, how they felt,the need to hide.
And and I thinkit was a challenging time.
(08:50):
It's great to hear and think,you know, many people,
they want to be more authentic.
They want to come out.
Maybe they're not as in asinviting of an environment like
agency worlds, potentially,or maybe Microsoft,
as you described.
You know, people are lookingfor their next paycheck.
They're looking fortheir next promotion.
There's a lot ofthings they need to consider.
(09:11):
What what advice would you giveyounger queer professionals or
maybe even more seasoned,closeted queer employees about
taking that risk or consideringthat risk and potentially
coming out or at least tryingto move towards a greater level
of authenticityin the workplace?
(09:33):
Sure.
You know, I think a lot of it,you know, it's like anything
when you're you're trying tomove a big project forward or
something new and getting itoff the ground.
Right.
It's really important, I think,to find some allies
and some support.
And, you know, I know for meway back, the fact that I had a
(09:54):
boss who I was friends with andwas part of my journey and
understood that made it a loteasier for that to to normalize.
So I would definitely encouragepeople to, you know,
find someone, whether it'ssomeone you work for or with or
someone in another area ofthe company, someone that may
be out already, who can be anadvocate or provide advice,
(10:17):
who knows?
Who knows the the politics andthe culture of the
organization you're in.
The other thing, you know,I think is really important.
My wife was a teacher for formost of her career after a
little Wall Street time.
And and you know, she alwayssays that that one of the most
important things is a teacheris is meeting people
(10:39):
where they are.
And I think that's somethingthat's easy to forget is,
as you know, some placesare so progressive and some
aren't there yet.
And some individuals have hadexperience and had a chance to
internalize and understand.
And some people haven't hadthose same experiences yet.
And maybe you can help themunderstand and and and feel
(11:02):
like it's okay to learnwith you, but think you have to
meet the student where they are.
So so don't expect you knoweverything won't always go
perfectly and and I think as ascompanies learn as managers
learn as peers and employeeskind of learn, you have to give
them some space tomake mistakes too.
(11:23):
And always try to remindpeople of that.
Some of it mightbe intentional, some might
be unintentional, but buteveryone's going to going to
kind of learn at their own pace.
I think it's great advice and Ithink the importance of this
over the years, I had oftenthought in the last
maybe decade, you know,is coming out still important.
(11:44):
And quite frankly, one of thereasons to have this podcast is
I realize how few people aretruly and authentically out in
the workplace and whatchallenges truly do exist and
the importance to your point ofshowing up, being aware,
driving awareness, being ableto mentor and have
(12:10):
conversations with otheremployees is really, really,
really important.
And one of the things on thispodcast that I'll be doing is
talking with folks that are apart of the Lgbtq+ community
and across the entire spectrum.
So I certainly know myexperience as a gay man.
And I'm curious,anything unique from your
(12:30):
perspective about navigatingthe workplace as a lesbian,
anything unique,anything that's been
challenging for you?
And have you found yourself?
So one part of the question,is anything unique because of
that?
And the second would be andhave you found yourself in
positions where youdo hide your identity?
(12:51):
Have you found yourself in aposition where you know,
today I'm not going to to havethat conversation, You know,
think another thing to bring upfor folks is you don't just
come out once you'recoming out all the time.
There's always a new group,There's always a new person.
So so any unique experiencesand any times that maybe you've
hidden your identity at workfor for any reason.
(13:14):
Um.
Interesting.
You know.
I wouldn't go asfar as to say, hidden.
Um, I, you know, I dothink we all find ourselves in
situations where, you know,we're none of us are monolithic
or no one thing.
We're not just gay.
We're not just right marketers.
We're, you know, we're we're anamalgam of all these different
parts of our identity.
(13:35):
And, you know, think likeeveryone there's there's
certain settings where youmight feel more
comfortable leaning into.
When you and I met atat the Forbes summit about a
year ago.
Right?
That's right.
Probably much more comfortableleaning into a story about my
wife or, you know, the the thetopics that that you clearly
get to as a as an LGBTQ person.
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Whereas, you know, there mightbe other environments where,
you know, you're you'rewith a, you know, less diverse
group of individuals.
And I might lean into the factthat I'm a Patriots fan before
I lean into a story about my mymarriage and my wife and my
sexuality and think weall do that.
(14:18):
You know, I don't know if I'dcall it hiding, but but think
there you know, as I said,sort of meeting people
where they are.
I won't go out of my wayto not tell a story or answer a
question or be honest ortruthful about my life.
But I also might not pick thatas my go to topic.
If I sense it's not going toit's not going to be the
(14:39):
easiest conversation or itmight make people
uncomfortable in, you know.
Yeah, I think, you know yeah.
One of my prior guests,you know, talked a
little bit about.
You know, he he had become amaster of sort of switching
his identity, you know,code switching, a bit of
reading aroom and understanding.
I think that's whatyou're alluding to.
(15:00):
And it is a it is somethingI think, you know, maybe not
everyone has to to do this,but you do sort of
assess the room.
You do sort of seewhat the situation is like.
And and I agree.
It's not that you're hiding andit's not that you don't want
people to know, but you,you know, think to some degree.
I always view that as a littlebit of I want to
keep myself safe.
(15:20):
I want tokeep myself comfortable.
I want to know how I canparticipate and let that kind
of unfold, you know, as it asit as it can naturally.
Well, you know, the theleadership positions you've
held and the position youhold today, you have an
enormous amount of influence.
And, you know,living authentically is
(15:43):
certainly commendable and andapplauded by our community.
And I know that itmakes a difference.
But I'm curious, as you thinkabout your career and I know
sometimes this is hard,but where have you like what I
like to say is where have youused your clout, you know,
your out ness?
Where have you used your cloutfor good in a way that you're
(16:05):
you're proud that you sawsome change, that you saw maybe
your workplace change andemployer change?
A colleague What are someexamples of things that you've
done that people might be ableto consider doing on their own
as an example?
Uh, sure.
Well, we talked about themaking a public commitment to
(16:25):
at least 50% diversity as webuilt what gratefully has
become amassive podcast network.
So we're, we're giving the micto lots of diverse people with
different points of view andletting them build
their business, their brandand their careers.
Um, there are a coupleof other projects.
Interestingly, during Covidthat we got off the ground and
(16:48):
it was such an interesting timebecause money was tighter than
ever before, obviously.
And you know, the media marketwas being challenged, but there
was also just a willingness,I think, because we had to get
scrappy and reimagine andrethink things to get some
interesting projectsoff the ground.
One of them I'm hugely proud ofwas a partnership with our
(17:10):
friends at P&G.
And we we realized thatactually the the folks at P&G
came to us and they they sortof had this important insight
that all of the LGBTQ causesusually do the majority of
their fundraising in June andthat 1st June during Covid,
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they weren't going to be ableto have the galas and the
events and entertain and do allthe things you would do
normally to raise moneyto fund all of
these important nonprofits.
And so they came to us and saidwe wanted to figure out some
kind of fundraiser.
Would I heartbe willing to participate?
(17:52):
Could you help us?
And that was in it was in likemid May, I want to say,
or early May guess, you know,think the whole project came
together in about 28, 30 daysand we created what what is now
a franchise for us bothcalled Cancel Pride.
And it was a fundraiser for sixLgbtq+ organizations that do
(18:17):
important work from Glad tocenter link to outright
international and and on and on.
And they all do important workin different areas
of the community.
And for many of them that yearwe raised almost their entire
operating budgets throughputting together what we know
how to do at iHeart, which iswe got the artists and the
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music community and theentertainment community behind
doing a virtual show.
And it was sort ofa very impromptu scrappy from
home on, you know, teams kindof a variety show.
And the the entertainmentcommunity showed up in
a huge way.
P&G and some brand partnersshowed up in a huge way.
(19:02):
And it was itwas just a phenomenal project.
We're going into year five now.
We continue to raisemoney every year.
We continue to put an amazingshow together and get a message
out again across, you know,all our iHeart stations out
into the community.
And it's so powerful not justto to be able to support these
(19:24):
organizations and the work thatneeds to be done, But but also
to be able to watch like thesocial that happens during a
show like that, to be ableto see, you know, kids who
might not have access to tosupportive communities, to hear
from all of these diverse anddifferent people, to hear
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messages of support.
And we've had so many artists,gay and straight and and
everything in between come outand support this this mission.
And again, it's one of thoseprojects that I felt really
fortunate to have the clout tobe able to to push it forward.
It was it was it was a massivebeast of a project to get off
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the ground wheneverything else was was
challenging during Covid.
But but to have the clout,to be able to push projects
like that forward is ait's a gift.
And and think, you know,many of us take really
seriously and and are verygrateful that that we have the
opportunity to do importantwork like that.
That's that's awesome and Ilove that this came from this
(20:31):
challenging time where now it'sbecome the norm.
We're we're sitting hereat home, but some of us but
it's really great that thatcame out of something like that
And and actually one of thethings later on that I was
going to ask you about,Gail and maybe this is a
nice segue, is you hadmentioned a few as you were
talking about your example.
(20:52):
Um, one of the things that Ilike to do is also the folks
that I have on the podcast haveworked with and have a lot of
great experienceswith organizations.
And one of the things that Ilike to do is ask if there's
any organizations or resourcesor tools that you might point
listeners to as they're ontheir journey for their own
(21:15):
authenticity or for workingwith their employer.
Around, DNI or otherwise.
Are there any organizations youmight point folks to or
resources you might mention?
You know, I've recently joinedthe Board of Lesbians who tech
that I think is justa phenomenal organization.
Again, in a more sort ofstraight male world of
(21:38):
engineering and technology.
I think they've been doingsome amazing work.
Obviously, I happen to knowabout that coming out of the
tech industry and joiningtheir board recently.
But I think they're you know,I encourage people to within
your your industrysee if there's something
within your company.
Very often thereare organizations,
(21:59):
whether they're official orsort of unofficial within a lot
of corporate cultures.
And also, you know, so much ofof my journey professionally
and personally hasbeen about finding like
minded individuals,whether they're they're gay
or they're straight.
You can't underestimate thepower of of finding people
(22:20):
who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ communitybe without our allies?
And so finding allies withinthe company who can who can
mentor you, whereyou feel comfortable asking
those questions, asking foradvice on how you might
navigate coming out or sharingyour personal story.
People within that culture willbe will be super helpful.
(22:43):
So whether it's a particularorganization or it's really
just start with 1 or 2individuals and the more you
have the conversation aboutthe conversation,
the easier it'll become.
Yeah.
And lesbians, you check.
I've watched them for quite awhile and seen what seems like
a great organization, alot of opportunity for getting
involved and mentoring andopportunities to connect.
(23:05):
It seems like a likea great organization.
Um, another question would befor you is you think maybe hit
on a few ideas already,but you know, often there's
employees that are listening tothis podcast who may be, um,
our allies, they may bea part of the LGBTQ community,
(23:27):
but there are folks who reallywant to potentially make a
change and want to, to, to seea more inclusive and equitable
environment for all.
But specifically with our focustoday for for queer employees,
what advice is you've navigatedand learned from these
these organizations,these large organizations
you've worked for?
What advice do youhave for for companies?
(23:50):
What what can they do?
What are some things that theycan put into place?
Are sure you know.
Think you know think forcompanies it's it's just
important on all fronts tocreate an environment of
inclusion and inclusivity.
Certainly in hiringdiversifying the organization.
(24:13):
Obviously hard to to changethings in an instant,
but making sure that you'reconsciously thinking about
diversity when you're everytime you're you do have the
luxury of posting anew job or interviewing people,
making sure that you're goingout of your way to help.
Um, to help to help youremployees and your managers
(24:36):
understand theimportance of that.
You know, I know at iHeart,we we are live right now while
we're speaking juston our broadcast radio
860 plus stations.
We are in the, you know,the smallest little news talk
format in a littletiny red state.
And we are on the biggest urbanhip hop pop shows and the
(24:57):
biggest urban centers andeverywhere in between pop,
hip hop, country, K-Pop,all to news and sports.
And and so, you know,it's really important to us
that that, you know, we wereflect all of those
communities and that we're intouch with those sort of
real American communities.
So, you know, for for for us,you know, think it's it's
(25:21):
important that our workforceincreasingly reflects all of
those communities that we serveand all of those individuals,
because we we reach nineout of ten Americans on any
any given month.
So we need to reflect back howall those different communities
and all those groups kind ofthink and feel and understand.
(25:42):
So I thinkthat's super important.
And, you know, think as youhire the that's probably where
you can make themost most impact.
I love that as aas a fellow marketer, you know,
it's sort of knowing yourcustomer to the nth degree
that's really andproviding for them.
That's really amazing what youguys are doing.
(26:05):
Well, one one more questionfor you, Gail, and I'm super
excited to ask you thisquestion in particular.
I ask everyone this, but, um,you know, you've, you've been
out there making a difference.
You know, we've talked a lotabout these great examples
through your career, but whohas inspired you along the way?
(26:26):
And, you know, the way thatI'll frame this question is
imagine you're hostinga dinner party.
It's a it's aclout for good dinner party.
And you can invite 2 or 3 ofyour queer icons, you know,
and again, excited to ask you,with all of the talent and
creators and all of the folksthat you've worked with, I can
(26:46):
imagine it probably would behard to even narrow it down.
But but as you've gone throughyour career, who are a few
people that have inspired you?
Uh, sure.
You know, thinking about thatdinner party and and
icons and, you know,there's there's what would be
crazy fun andthen who inspired you?
And sometimes they align.
(27:06):
Sometimes they don't.
Sure.
God, I would love to have aconversation about this topic
with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Imagine what sheprobably went through.
I don't know, you know,gay icon or not.
But, you know, I'd recentlyseen that first lady series
just phenomenal, you know,thinking about probably the
challenges and yet the impactthat that she was able to have
(27:31):
with the seat she had or didn'tofficially have at the table.
So I just thought that wouldjust be a phenomenal,
fascinating conversationto be had.
Um, I.
Think, you know, I just I justwatched that also just this,
this year.
And I walked away andsaid I had no idea.
I think I've just skimmed thesurface on Eleanor Roosevelt.
(27:54):
I've and I'm using this mediato consume more insights.
I got I've gotto go do more research.
I've got to go learn more.
I was so impressedand so inspired.
And, you know,there what a hardship.
Right, Right.
I mean, the way that theynavigated it together.
And then what she really did tomake some really profound
changes along the way.
(28:14):
It was really,really impressive.
It's a great example.
Right, of clout for good.
Right.
Using the power that that shehad officially or unofficially
to really, you know, change,you know, change history.
It it.
Really is.
What she could have done today.
That's right.
And your example of, you know,gender equality and holding
those press conferences wherefemale reporters are the only
(28:37):
the only ones that are going tobe going to be invited and
everyone just aboutlosing their mind.
What do you mean back then?
Right.
Like.
You know, think if we didthat today, people would lose
their minds, Right?
It's really it's really,really true.
Who else?
Anybody else you'd inviteto that table.
I think is just, you know,just done, I think,
phenomenal work, you know,creatively and, you know,
(28:59):
within his his his medium.
But also think in in changingculture and and driving
acceptance and and perspectivewithout always making that
the primary agenda.
I think Ryan Murphy has justjust been incredible at
bringing LGBTQ characters intoour living rooms across America
(29:21):
in ways, you know again thatthat that met the the viewer
where they were right that madeit accessible and made it easy
enough for people to,you know, to to to normalize.
So I just think, you know,I'd love to you know, I'd love
to have a conversation with him.
I'd love to have dinner andpick his brain and and
(29:41):
understand where where hethinks things are going next
because he's got sucha pulse on.
Culture.
Such a pulse, such a creator.
I was so impressed with hisacceptance speech for his award
at the Golden Globes and turnthat around to the audience to
highlight his trans actors,creators, partners and other
(30:05):
partners that were there andjust very impressed with how he
handled that and certainly haveappreciated and been a part of
consuming thoseamazing stories myself.
So.
Well, I love it.
I'd love to be invited when youhave that party, for sure.
Um, so Gail, thank youso much for joining me today.
(30:25):
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for representing thanksfor all you do throughout
your career, but specificallynow at iHeartMedia to
amplify queer voices.
It's it's greatlyappreciated and celebrated.
You can check outiHeart to explore music,
radio and podcasts,including the impressive
outspoken Lgbtq+ podcastnetwork that we talked about
(30:48):
a little earlier.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on Socialand visit Klout for good.
To subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope that this episode givesyou inspiration and motivation
to use your clout forgood to make a difference.
Thanks for tuning in.
So much of of my journeyprofessionally and personally
has been about finding likeminded individuals,
whether they're they're gayor they're straight.
You can't underestimate thepower of of finding people
who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ communitybe without our allies?
And so finding allies withinthe company who can who can
(00:22):
mentor you, whereyou feel comfortable asking
those questions, asking foradvice on how you might
navigate coming out or sharingyour personal story.
People within that culture willbe will be super helpful.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a biweeklypodcast that showcases personal
(00:45):
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcomeGail Overman, who's the chief
(01:06):
marketing officerat iHeartMedia, where she
leverages the company'sextensive range of content
experiences and technologies tobring brands together with
consumers across all ofthe company's businesses.
She's also served as chiefmarketing and ideas officer at
IPG Media Brands and beforethat spent 16 years at
(01:26):
Microsoft as chiefcreative officer, where she was
responsible for the company'sportfolio of brands and
all global advertising.
Gail, thank you so much fortaking time out of your
schedule to be onthe show today.
Oh, thanks, David.
Great to be here.
Well, you know, before Iget started, I wanted to to say
a special thank you to you andyour team for the creation of
(01:46):
and the continued support ofthe Outspoken Podcast Network.
We appreciate youcreating a platform to
spotlight Lgbtq+ Voices.
I personally love listening toRosie O'Donnell's new
podcast, Onward.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the reception of this and
the importance of the network?
Sure.
(02:07):
You know, it's interesting.
We.
When we were just getting intopodcasting a few years back,
we I was on the board of anorganization called Makers that
does a lot of important workaround gender equality.
And every year at their bigannual event, they would
encourage all of the boardmembers to get up on a stage at
a big public event and make acommitment to gender equality.
(02:31):
And this was the year, like Isaid, we had we had just
acquired stuff media, and wewere just starting to really
build ouriHeart podcast network.
And I called the headof our iHeart podcast network
and said, Hey, I wasabout to make a commitment.
I think podcasting is going tobe such an interesting area,
(02:51):
and if we don't overtly andproactively think about
equality and who we give themic to will probably repeat the
mistakes of past media and itjust as pod before podcasting
was starting to explode, we hada great conversation with some
of our execs about howcould we, how could we hold
(03:14):
ourselves accountable and howcan we proactively think about
equality and diversity as webuild a new medium that we
hoped would become as big as ithas is the number one podcast
network that we've now built.
And so we made a publiccommitment at that Makers event
years back to ensure that atleast 50% of our creators and
(03:37):
our investments in newpodcasts were diverse.
And that reflected, you know,all types of diversity.
So gender equality andrace and sexuality.
And that led to some amazing,amazing projects, including the
outspoken network where weintentionally make sure that we
(03:58):
are getting behind LGBTQcreators and we're giving them
the mic and lettingthem create, whether it's,
you know, sports or comedy orstorytelling or true crime or,
you know, whatever genre theywant to create in.
We've been really diligent.
We created the Black EffectPodcast Network has a lot of
(04:19):
hit shows, the Michael Torahpodcast network that's building
a lot of big hitswith a lot of amazing creators.
And now we're just beginningthat journey with
Outspoken as well.
So we're really proudof that work.
And it came out of just asking,asking the question.
Yeah, right.
Well, well, I'm certainlygrateful for it.
(04:40):
And we're sitting here today,you know, to to talk a little
bit about it fromour own perspective.
So I really appreciate the timetoday and we could
jump right in.
So I'm I'm really interestedto hear, um,
your experience with, you know,coming to terms with
your own identity and,and working towards your own
(05:00):
authenticity in the workplace.
So can you tell us a little bitabout when you came out,
what was your experience,just your point of view on
the on, on, on coming andbecoming more of yourself in
the workplace?
Sure.
You know, I often tellpeople like, you know, I think
I've been incredibly fortunateprofessionally as I've sort of
(05:22):
come to terms with my identityand my own journey.
And I've been really fortunateand lucky think to work with
and for a lot of humans whowere very supportive and
understandingabout that journey.
When I started in my early addays on the agency side in
advertising and PR, you know,I had a couple of, uh,
(05:46):
bosses who were in, in theinner inner circle who were
legitimate friends who werehelping me personally
and therefore professionally.
There was never some big ahacoming out moment because I was
working with peoplewho were friends.
And that's always a luxury inany time and any point
in your career.
And then somewhere in the inthe mid 90s I, I got a call
(06:11):
from someone at Microsoft.
We had pitched some business,we didn't win with them and I'd
met some people and they weretrying to recruit me to come to
Redmond and work on some early,early internet projects.
And in retrospect, you know,I didn't even probably fully
understand the power of thisat the time.
But in retrospect, the personwho who hired me at Microsoft,
(06:35):
he was just amazing,amazing technology
and creative genius.
And and he had gotten my cardfrom someone and the CMO at
Microsoft and and called me athome one night back
before cell phones.
And we hadthis incredible conversation.
We just clicked.
And he was sosmart and interesting.
And then it didn't even occurto me until later that that
(07:00):
whole process of inviting meout to interview for a secret
job on a.
Project on the Internet that Ibarely even been on.
He never used pronouns.
If we didn't even use.
We didn't talk about pronounsback then, right?
Yeah.
And and he, you know,there were certain
things like, hey, we want tofly you out to interview if it
(07:22):
could be, you know,we'd love to meet you.
And if, if there's anyoneimportant enough to you that
you'd like to bring them withyou out to Redmond, we'd love
to pay for that.
Wow.
And it kind of went the sameway on the job offer.
And then I took the job andthere were domestic partner
benefits in 1996, and that'show far ahead
(07:45):
Microsoft really was.
And full credit to the theexecutive team there back
in the day.
They really were way ahead of,I think, the trends in in
really making it easy to findthe smartest, most, you know,
experienced, best,most passionate people and make
it easy for them tocome work at that company.
(08:07):
It's amazing.
I mean, it's great to hearabout that because my very
first job also in theearly 90s, um, my boss at the
time I receivedtwo holiday party invitations,
didn't know why, didn't knowwhat was going on at the time.
I had quietly come out.
(08:29):
And yet I think he clearly hadheard that or figured that out.
And one was to hisquote unquote, gay party and
one was to his non-gay party.
And so it really is, you know,for I think, those that have
been before us, how they felt,the need to hide.
And and I thinkit was a challenging time.
(08:50):
It's great to hear and think,you know, many people,
they want to be more authentic.
They want to come out.
Maybe they're not as in asinviting of an environment like
agency worlds, potentially,or maybe Microsoft,
as you described.
You know, people are lookingfor their next paycheck.
They're looking fortheir next promotion.
There's a lot ofthings they need to consider.
(09:11):
What what advice would you giveyounger queer professionals or
maybe even more seasoned,closeted queer employees about
taking that risk or consideringthat risk and potentially
coming out or at least tryingto move towards a greater level
of authenticityin the workplace?
(09:33):
Sure.
You know, I think a lot of it,you know, it's like anything
when you're you're trying tomove a big project forward or
something new and getting itoff the ground.
Right.
It's really important, I think,to find some allies
and some support.
And, you know, I know for meway back, the fact that I had a
(09:54):
boss who I was friends with andwas part of my journey and
understood that made it a loteasier for that to to normalize.
So I would definitely encouragepeople to, you know,
find someone, whether it'ssomeone you work for or with or
someone in another area ofthe company, someone that may
be out already, who can be anadvocate or provide advice,
(10:17):
who knows?
Who knows the the politics andthe culture of the
organization you're in.
The other thing, you know,I think is really important.
My wife was a teacher for formost of her career after a
little Wall Street time.
And and you know, she alwayssays that that one of the most
important things is a teacheris is meeting people
(10:39):
where they are.
And I think that's somethingthat's easy to forget is,
as you know, some placesare so progressive and some
aren't there yet.
And some individuals have hadexperience and had a chance to
internalize and understand.
And some people haven't hadthose same experiences yet.
And maybe you can help themunderstand and and and feel
(11:02):
like it's okay to learnwith you, but think you have to
meet the student where they are.
So so don't expect you knoweverything won't always go
perfectly and and I think as ascompanies learn as managers
learn as peers and employeeskind of learn, you have to give
them some space tomake mistakes too.
(11:23):
And always try to remindpeople of that.
Some of it mightbe intentional, some might
be unintentional, but buteveryone's going to going to
kind of learn at their own pace.
I think it's great advice and Ithink the importance of this
over the years, I had oftenthought in the last
maybe decade, you know,is coming out still important.
(11:44):
And quite frankly, one of thereasons to have this podcast is
I realize how few people aretruly and authentically out in
the workplace and whatchallenges truly do exist and
the importance to your point ofshowing up, being aware,
driving awareness, being ableto mentor and have
(12:10):
conversations with otheremployees is really, really,
really important.
And one of the things on thispodcast that I'll be doing is
talking with folks that are apart of the Lgbtq+ community
and across the entire spectrum.
So I certainly know myexperience as a gay man.
And I'm curious,anything unique from your
(12:30):
perspective about navigatingthe workplace as a lesbian,
anything unique,anything that's been
challenging for you?
And have you found yourself?
So one part of the question,is anything unique because of
that?
And the second would be andhave you found yourself in
positions where youdo hide your identity?
(12:51):
Have you found yourself in aposition where you know,
today I'm not going to to havethat conversation, You know,
think another thing to bring upfor folks is you don't just
come out once you'recoming out all the time.
There's always a new group,There's always a new person.
So so any unique experiencesand any times that maybe you've
hidden your identity at workfor for any reason.
(13:14):
Um.
Interesting.
You know.
I wouldn't go asfar as to say, hidden.
Um, I, you know, I dothink we all find ourselves in
situations where, you know,we're none of us are monolithic
or no one thing.
We're not just gay.
We're not just right marketers.
We're, you know, we're we're anamalgam of all these different
parts of our identity.
(13:35):
And, you know, think likeeveryone there's there's
certain settings where youmight feel more
comfortable leaning into.
When you and I met atat the Forbes summit about a
year ago.
Right?
That's right.
Probably much more comfortableleaning into a story about my
wife or, you know, the the thetopics that that you clearly
get to as a as an LGBTQ person.
(13:57):
Whereas, you know, there mightbe other environments where,
you know, you're you'rewith a, you know, less diverse
group of individuals.
And I might lean into the factthat I'm a Patriots fan before
I lean into a story about my mymarriage and my wife and my
sexuality and think weall do that.
(14:18):
You know, I don't know if I'dcall it hiding, but but think
there you know, as I said,sort of meeting people
where they are.
I won't go out of my wayto not tell a story or answer a
question or be honest ortruthful about my life.
But I also might not pick thatas my go to topic.
If I sense it's not going toit's not going to be the
(14:39):
easiest conversation or itmight make people
uncomfortable in, you know.
Yeah, I think, you know yeah.
One of my prior guests,you know, talked a
little bit about.
You know, he he had become amaster of sort of switching
his identity, you know,code switching, a bit of
reading aroom and understanding.
I think that's whatyou're alluding to.
(15:00):
And it is a it is somethingI think, you know, maybe not
everyone has to to do this,but you do sort of
assess the room.
You do sort of seewhat the situation is like.
And and I agree.
It's not that you're hiding andit's not that you don't want
people to know, but you,you know, think to some degree.
I always view that as a littlebit of I want to
keep myself safe.
(15:20):
I want tokeep myself comfortable.
I want to know how I canparticipate and let that kind
of unfold, you know, as it asit as it can naturally.
Well, you know, the theleadership positions you've
held and the position youhold today, you have an
enormous amount of influence.
And, you know,living authentically is
(15:43):
certainly commendable and andapplauded by our community.
And I know that itmakes a difference.
But I'm curious, as you thinkabout your career and I know
sometimes this is hard,but where have you like what I
like to say is where have youused your clout, you know,
your out ness?
Where have you used your cloutfor good in a way that you're
(16:05):
you're proud that you sawsome change, that you saw maybe
your workplace change andemployer change?
A colleague What are someexamples of things that you've
done that people might be ableto consider doing on their own
as an example?
Uh, sure.
Well, we talked about themaking a public commitment to
(16:25):
at least 50% diversity as webuilt what gratefully has
become amassive podcast network.
So we're, we're giving the micto lots of diverse people with
different points of view andletting them build
their business, their brandand their careers.
Um, there are a coupleof other projects.
Interestingly, during Covidthat we got off the ground and
(16:48):
it was such an interesting timebecause money was tighter than
ever before, obviously.
And you know, the media marketwas being challenged, but there
was also just a willingness,I think, because we had to get
scrappy and reimagine andrethink things to get some
interesting projectsoff the ground.
One of them I'm hugely proud ofwas a partnership with our
(17:10):
friends at P&G.
And we we realized thatactually the the folks at P&G
came to us and they they sortof had this important insight
that all of the LGBTQ causesusually do the majority of
their fundraising in June andthat 1st June during Covid,
(17:32):
they weren't going to be ableto have the galas and the
events and entertain and do allthe things you would do
normally to raise moneyto fund all of
these important nonprofits.
And so they came to us and saidwe wanted to figure out some
kind of fundraiser.
Would I heartbe willing to participate?
(17:52):
Could you help us?
And that was in it was in likemid May, I want to say,
or early May guess, you know,think the whole project came
together in about 28, 30 daysand we created what what is now
a franchise for us bothcalled Cancel Pride.
And it was a fundraiser for sixLgbtq+ organizations that do
(18:17):
important work from Glad tocenter link to outright
international and and on and on.
And they all do important workin different areas
of the community.
And for many of them that yearwe raised almost their entire
operating budgets throughputting together what we know
how to do at iHeart, which iswe got the artists and the
(18:39):
music community and theentertainment community behind
doing a virtual show.
And it was sort ofa very impromptu scrappy from
home on, you know, teams kindof a variety show.
And the the entertainmentcommunity showed up in
a huge way.
P&G and some brand partnersshowed up in a huge way.
(19:02):
And it was itwas just a phenomenal project.
We're going into year five now.
We continue to raisemoney every year.
We continue to put an amazingshow together and get a message
out again across, you know,all our iHeart stations out
into the community.
And it's so powerful not justto to be able to support these
(19:24):
organizations and the work thatneeds to be done, But but also
to be able to watch like thesocial that happens during a
show like that, to be ableto see, you know, kids who
might not have access to tosupportive communities, to hear
from all of these diverse anddifferent people, to hear
(19:46):
messages of support.
And we've had so many artists,gay and straight and and
everything in between come outand support this this mission.
And again, it's one of thoseprojects that I felt really
fortunate to have the clout tobe able to to push it forward.
It was it was it was a massivebeast of a project to get off
(20:09):
the ground wheneverything else was was
challenging during Covid.
But but to have the clout,to be able to push projects
like that forward is ait's a gift.
And and think, you know,many of us take really
seriously and and are verygrateful that that we have the
opportunity to do importantwork like that.
That's that's awesome and Ilove that this came from this
(20:31):
challenging time where now it'sbecome the norm.
We're we're sitting hereat home, but some of us but
it's really great that thatcame out of something like that
And and actually one of thethings later on that I was
going to ask you about,Gail and maybe this is a
nice segue, is you hadmentioned a few as you were
talking about your example.
(20:52):
Um, one of the things that Ilike to do is also the folks
that I have on the podcast haveworked with and have a lot of
great experienceswith organizations.
And one of the things that Ilike to do is ask if there's
any organizations or resourcesor tools that you might point
listeners to as they're ontheir journey for their own
(21:15):
authenticity or for workingwith their employer.
Around, DNI or otherwise.
Are there any organizations youmight point folks to or
resources you might mention?
You know, I've recently joinedthe Board of Lesbians who tech
that I think is justa phenomenal organization.
Again, in a more sort ofstraight male world of
(21:38):
engineering and technology.
I think they've been doingsome amazing work.
Obviously, I happen to knowabout that coming out of the
tech industry and joiningtheir board recently.
But I think they're you know,I encourage people to within
your your industrysee if there's something
within your company.
Very often thereare organizations,
(21:59):
whether they're official orsort of unofficial within a lot
of corporate cultures.
And also, you know, so much ofof my journey professionally
and personally hasbeen about finding like
minded individuals,whether they're they're gay
or they're straight.
You can't underestimate thepower of of finding people
(22:20):
who are allies.
Where would the LGBTQ communitybe without our allies?
And so finding allies withinthe company who can who can
mentor you, whereyou feel comfortable asking
those questions, asking foradvice on how you might
navigate coming out or sharingyour personal story.
People within that culture willbe will be super helpful.
(22:43):
So whether it's a particularorganization or it's really
just start with 1 or 2individuals and the more you
have the conversation aboutthe conversation,
the easier it'll become.
Yeah.
And lesbians, you check.
I've watched them for quite awhile and seen what seems like
a great organization, alot of opportunity for getting
involved and mentoring andopportunities to connect.
(23:05):
It seems like a likea great organization.
Um, another question would befor you is you think maybe hit
on a few ideas already,but you know, often there's
employees that are listening tothis podcast who may be, um,
our allies, they may bea part of the LGBTQ community,
(23:27):
but there are folks who reallywant to potentially make a
change and want to, to, to seea more inclusive and equitable
environment for all.
But specifically with our focustoday for for queer employees,
what advice is you've navigatedand learned from these
these organizations,these large organizations
you've worked for?
What advice do youhave for for companies?
(23:50):
What what can they do?
What are some things that theycan put into place?
Are sure you know.
Think you know think forcompanies it's it's just
important on all fronts tocreate an environment of
inclusion and inclusivity.
Certainly in hiringdiversifying the organization.
(24:13):
Obviously hard to to changethings in an instant,
but making sure that you'reconsciously thinking about
diversity when you're everytime you're you do have the
luxury of posting anew job or interviewing people,
making sure that you're goingout of your way to help.
Um, to help to help youremployees and your managers
(24:36):
understand theimportance of that.
You know, I know at iHeart,we we are live right now while
we're speaking juston our broadcast radio
860 plus stations.
We are in the, you know,the smallest little news talk
format in a littletiny red state.
And we are on the biggest urbanhip hop pop shows and the
(24:57):
biggest urban centers andeverywhere in between pop,
hip hop, country, K-Pop,all to news and sports.
And and so, you know,it's really important to us
that that, you know, we wereflect all of those
communities and that we're intouch with those sort of
real American communities.
So, you know, for for for us,you know, think it's it's
(25:21):
important that our workforceincreasingly reflects all of
those communities that we serveand all of those individuals,
because we we reach nineout of ten Americans on any
any given month.
So we need to reflect back howall those different communities
and all those groups kind ofthink and feel and understand.
(25:42):
So I thinkthat's super important.
And, you know, think as youhire the that's probably where
you can make themost most impact.
I love that as aas a fellow marketer, you know,
it's sort of knowing yourcustomer to the nth degree
that's really andproviding for them.
That's really amazing what youguys are doing.
(26:05):
Well, one one more questionfor you, Gail, and I'm super
excited to ask you thisquestion in particular.
I ask everyone this, but, um,you know, you've, you've been
out there making a difference.
You know, we've talked a lotabout these great examples
through your career, but whohas inspired you along the way?
(26:26):
And, you know, the way thatI'll frame this question is
imagine you're hostinga dinner party.
It's a it's aclout for good dinner party.
And you can invite 2 or 3 ofyour queer icons, you know,
and again, excited to ask you,with all of the talent and
creators and all of the folksthat you've worked with, I can
(26:46):
imagine it probably would behard to even narrow it down.
But but as you've gone throughyour career, who are a few
people that have inspired you?
Uh, sure.
You know, thinking about thatdinner party and and
icons and, you know,there's there's what would be
crazy fun andthen who inspired you?
And sometimes they align.
(27:06):
Sometimes they don't.
Sure.
God, I would love to have aconversation about this topic
with Eleanor Roosevelt.
Imagine what sheprobably went through.
I don't know, you know,gay icon or not.
But, you know, I'd recentlyseen that first lady series
just phenomenal, you know,thinking about probably the
challenges and yet the impactthat that she was able to have
(27:31):
with the seat she had or didn'tofficially have at the table.
So I just thought that wouldjust be a phenomenal,
fascinating conversationto be had.
Um, I.
Think, you know, I just I justwatched that also just this,
this year.
And I walked away andsaid I had no idea.
I think I've just skimmed thesurface on Eleanor Roosevelt.
(27:54):
I've and I'm using this mediato consume more insights.
I got I've gotto go do more research.
I've got to go learn more.
I was so impressedand so inspired.
And, you know,there what a hardship.
Right, Right.
I mean, the way that theynavigated it together.
And then what she really did tomake some really profound
changes along the way.
(28:14):
It was really,really impressive.
It's a great example.
Right, of clout for good.
Right.
Using the power that that shehad officially or unofficially
to really, you know, change,you know, change history.
It it.
Really is.
What she could have done today.
That's right.
And your example of, you know,gender equality and holding
those press conferences wherefemale reporters are the only
(28:37):
the only ones that are going tobe going to be invited and
everyone just aboutlosing their mind.
What do you mean back then?
Right.
Like.
You know, think if we didthat today, people would lose
their minds, Right?
It's really it's really,really true.
Who else?
Anybody else you'd inviteto that table.
I think is just, you know,just done, I think,
phenomenal work, you know,creatively and, you know,
(28:59):
within his his his medium.
But also think in in changingculture and and driving
acceptance and and perspectivewithout always making that
the primary agenda.
I think Ryan Murphy has justjust been incredible at
bringing LGBTQ characters intoour living rooms across America
(29:21):
in ways, you know again thatthat that met the the viewer
where they were right that madeit accessible and made it easy
enough for people to,you know, to to to normalize.
So I just think, you know,I'd love to you know, I'd love
to have a conversation with him.
I'd love to have dinner andpick his brain and and
(29:41):
understand where where hethinks things are going next
because he's got sucha pulse on.
Culture.
Such a pulse, such a creator.
I was so impressed with hisacceptance speech for his award
at the Golden Globes and turnthat around to the audience to
highlight his trans actors,creators, partners and other
(30:05):
partners that were there andjust very impressed with how he
handled that and certainly haveappreciated and been a part of
consuming thoseamazing stories myself.
So.
Well, I love it.
I'd love to be invited when youhave that party, for sure.
Um, so Gail, thank youso much for joining me today.
(30:25):
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for representing thanksfor all you do throughout
your career, but specificallynow at iHeartMedia to
amplify queer voices.
It's it's greatlyappreciated and celebrated.
You can check outiHeart to explore music,
radio and podcasts,including the impressive
outspoken Lgbtq+ podcastnetwork that we talked about
(30:48):
a little earlier.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on Socialand visit Klout for good.
To subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope that this episode givesyou inspiration and motivation
to use your clout forgood to make a difference.
Thanks for tuning in.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!