Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEARPRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH
OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORTBLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE
MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OF WHO I AM.
IT'S MY DNA ANDIT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'SVERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101, WALK THE WALKAND TALK THE TALK, BUT.
DO IT YEAR ROUND.
(00:28):
HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME.
CLOUT FOR GOOD IS A BI WEEKLYPODCAST THAT SHOWCASES PERSONAL
AND POWERFUL CONVERSATIONS WITHPROMINENT LGBTQ+ EXECUTIVES WHO
ARE OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
THE CONVERSATIONS ARE MEANT TOCREATE A SUPPORTIVE COMMUNITY
TO INSPIRE LGBTQ+ PEOPLE,THEIR EMPLOYERS AND ALLIES TO
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BUILD EQUITY AND INCLUSIONIN THE WORKPLACE.
TODAY, I'M HONORED TOWELCOME JIM FIELDING.
JIM AND I MET YEARS AGO WHEN WEWERE BOTH SERVING ON THE
NATIONAL BOARD OF DIRECTORSFOR GLISSON, THE GAY LESBIAN
STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
JIM IS A PROUD OHIO NATIVE ANDINDIANA UNIVERSITY HOOSIER,
WHERE HE SERVES ONTHE UNIVERSITY'S FOUNDATION.
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HE STARTED HIS CAREERON THE DEPARTMENT STORE FLOOR,
AND OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS,HE'S LED CONSUMER PRODUCT
GROUPS AT SOME OF THE WORLD'SMOST BELOVED MEDIA AND
RETAIL BRANDS,INCLUDING THE GAP, DISNEY,
CLAIRE'S, DREAMWORKS AND20TH CENTURY FOX.
JIM IS CURRENTLY APARTNER AT ARCHER GRAY,
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AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA COMPANY.
HE'S PASSIONATE ABOUT THE QUEERCOMMUNITY AND ADVOCATES FOR
HIGHER EDUCATION FOR DIVERSITY,EQUITY AND INCLUSION,
AND RECENTLY HAS LAUNCHED A NEWBOOK TITLED ALL PRIDE NO EGO A
QUEER EXECUTIVE'S JOURNEY TOLIVING
AND LEADING AUTHENTICALLY.
(01:53):
HE'S COMMITTED TOSAFE AND AUTHENTIC SPACES
FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS.
JIM, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.
YEAH, SAME, JIM.
WELL, LISTEN, I'M REALLYEXCITED TO TALK WITH YOU TODAY.
I JUST FINISHED RECORDING.
I'VE JUST FINISHED READING ALLPRIDE AND EGO OVER
LABOR DAY WEEKEND.
YES.
I LOVE HOW YOU SHARED SO MUCHVULNERABILITY AND REALLY
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APPRECIATE THE PRACTICAL ADVICETHAT YOU PROVIDED
FOR YOUR READERS.
GREAT.
AND IN THE BOOK YOU INCLUDED AQUOTE FROM SOMEONE I ADMIRE,
ARMISTEAD MAUPIN, THE AUTHOR OFTALES IN THE CITY, WHERE HE
STATES THAT HIS ONE REGRET INLIFE WAS HIDING HIS IDENTITY
FOR TOO LONG AND HE ENCOURAGESOTHERS NOT TO MAKE
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THE SAME MISTAKE.
CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BITABOUT YOUR COMING OUT STORY AND
WHEN AND WHY YOU WHEN AND WHYYOU CHOSE TO DO THAT IN SOME OF
THE EXPERIENCES THATCAME ALONG WITH IT?
YEAH.
YEAH.
I MEAN, I THANK YOU SO MUCH FORSTARTING WITH THAT QUOTE.
THAT QUOTE WAS IN ASTARBUCKS CUP, BY THE WAY.
THAT'S WHERE I SAW THAT GO.
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UM, SO, YEAH, I MEAN, I, I KNEWI WAS GAY MY ENTIRE LIFE.
I WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT IPROBABLY KNEW AT 6 OR 7.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHATIT WAS CALLED.
I WASN'T.
I WAS PRETTY SURE IT WAS WRONG.
OR AT LEAST THAT'STHE WAY I'D BEEN SOCIALIZED.
AND SO I'M ACTUALLY OFFICIALLYA LATE BLOOMER BECAUSE I,
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I LIVED A VERY I THINK IT'SPROBABLY FAIR TO SAY BISEXUAL
LIFE FOR MOST OF MYTEENS AND INTO COLLEGE AND THEN
REALLY JUST SUPPRESSING.
I WAS A HOMOSEXUAL, BUT I WASSUPPRESSING AND THEN REALLY
CAME OUT TO MYSELF WHEN IWAS 22, BUT DIDN'T COME OUT TO
MY FAMILY OR AT WORKPROFESSIONALLY UNTIL I WAS 26.
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AND I THINK WHY THAT QUOTERESONATES WITH ME SO MUCH IS,
UH, I REGRET.
I WONDER WHAT HIGH SCHOOL ANDCOLLEGE WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE IF
I WOULD HAVE BEEN STRONG ENOUGHTO BE OUT AND TO BE
MY AUTHENTIC SELF.
AND A LOT OF IT'S FUNNY BECAUSEI'M SUCH A MEDIA PERSON AND I
CONSUME SO MUCH CONTENT AND IGET SUPER EMOTIONAL WATCHING
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THINGS LIKE LOVE SIMON AND LOVEVICTOR AND HEARTSTOPPER BECAUSE
I'M LIKE, THAT WASN'TMY EXPERIENCE, BUT I WANTED IT
TO BE RIGHT.
I WANTED TO GOTO HOMECOMING WITH A BOY.
I.
I KNEW THAT I WOULDHAVE BEEN HAPPIER IF I COULD
HAVE BEEN AUTHENTIC.
I KNEW THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THATQUOTE REMINDS ME OF.
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AND SO THINK THE SECOND HALF OFMY LIFE SINCE 26, I THINK I'VE
DOUBLED DOWN ON.
THAT'S WHY I KNEW IHAD TO BE OUT AND PROUD
AND LIVE AUTHENTICALLY.
I WAS NEVER GOING TOGO BACK THE OTHER WAY.
YEAH, I JUST MY PARTNER AND IJUST FINISHED WATCHING THE
LATEST EPISODE OF HEARTSTOPPER.
SAME, SAME FEELINGS FOR ME.
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AND YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY TALKEDOVER THE WEEKEND ABOUT I
ACTUALLY IT IT CREATES ANENORMOUS AMOUNT OF FEAR AND
ANXIETY AS I WATCH IT BECAUSEI'M SO NOT USED TO SEEING IT.
IT SO WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE THATBEING ABLE TO SEE THESE OPEN,
HONEST CONVERSATIONS AND THEAUTHENTICITY ON THE SCREEN
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IS IS AMAZING.
AND, WELL, YOU KNOW,IN THE WORKPLACE, IT SEEMS LIKE
WE'RE COMING OUT ALL THE TIME.
A MCKINSEY MCKINSEY REPORTSTATES THAT QUEER EMPLOYEES
OFTEN COME OUT IN THEWORKPLACE EVERY WEEK.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SOMETHINGTHAT YOU SORT OF RIP THE
BAND-AID OFF AND YOU'REFINISHED AT WORK BECAUSE YOU'RE
DEALING WITH SOMANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
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IN YOUR OWNCOMPANY AND EXTERNALLY.
AND SO YOU'RE OFTEN FACED WITHCOMING OUT AND TELLING YOUR
STORY OVER AND OVER.
AND I'M INTERESTED, YOU KNOW,WITH YOUR CAREER.
AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENTCOMPANIES YOU'VE SPANNED,
ALL THE DIFFERENT CLIENTSYOU'VE SERVED, HAVE YOU FOUND
YOURSELF OR DID YOU FINDYOURSELF HIDING YOUR IDENTITY?
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AND HOW DID YOU HOW DID YOUOVERCOME THAT AND HOW DO YOU
APPROACH THAT TODAY?
YEAH.
NO, I MEAN, THINK THINK,DAVID IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT
CONVERSATIONBECAUSE IT'S TIRING.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
IT'S TIRING BECAUSE AS IF IWHEN I WALK INTO A ROOM,
WHEN YOU WALK INTO A ROOM UNTILWE CHOOSE TO SHARE OUR
STORY OR, AS I SAY,INVITE PEOPLE IN,
WE'RE WHITE MEN, RIGHT?
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AND SO ALL OF THAT,THE ASSUMPTIONS AND FRANKLY,
THE PRIVILEGES THAT GO WITHWHITE MEN ARE KIND OF ON YOU
UNTIL YOU CHOOSE TOSHARE YOUR STORY.
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'REPUT IN MORE OF A MARGINALIZED
COMMUNITY BECAUSE YOU'RE AGAY WHITE MAN.
AND I THINK ALL OF US AS QUEERLEADERS HAVE THAT CODE SWITCH
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WHERE WE READ ROOMS ANDWE READ SITUATIONS.
AND TO YOUR POINT, WE READCLIENTS WHERE UNFORTUNATELY YOU
DECIDE HOW MUCH OF MYSELF AM IGOING TO SHARE AND HOW QUICKLY
BASED ON CONTEXT.
SO WHEN I MET YOU, YOU KNOW,WHEN YOU AND I MET AT A BOARD
OF DIRECTORS FOR GLISTENED,LIKE YOU GOT THE FULL BLOWN
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LIKE THAT WAS THE 100% RIGHT.
BUT WHEN I WHEN I GO OUT ANDPITCH A CLIENT FOR THE FIRST
TIME OR, YOU KNOW, MEET A GROUPOF PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME,
I'M MUCH MORE CLOSE,NOT CLOSETED, I'M JUST MUCH
MORE SELECTIVE IN ARE THESEPEOPLE GOING TO GET THE FULL
STORY OR NOT?
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AND NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO GET AJOB OR I WANT THEM TO LIKE ME.
IT'S IT'S I THINK IT'S ALMOST ASAFETY MECHANISM, RIGHT?
I THINK IT'S ALMOST A SKILLTHAT WE LEARN MEAN OUR GAYDAR,
WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
IT'S A PROTECTIVE CLOAK WE PUTON THAT SAYS, OKAY,
WAIT A MINUTE, YOU'RE GOING TOHAVE TO EARN MY TRUST A LITTLE
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BIT AND I'M GOING TO HAVE TOFEEL THIS OUT BEFORE I FULLY
FLIP THAT SWITCH AND GIVEYOU JIM UNPLUGGED.
RIGHT.
AND I THINK.
STRAIGHT PEOPLE.
GOD LOVE THEM.
LOVE MY ALLIES.
LOVE MY STORY.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINKLIKE THAT, RIGHT?
THEY JUST ENTER A ROOMAND THEY PRESENT AS THEY ARE.
I THINK THAT WEDO THAT OUR ENTIRE LIVES,
AND IT GETS TIRING.
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AND, UM.
BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S WHATMAKES US GOOD LEADERS
BECAUSE WE, WE READ ROOMS,WE READ CONTEXT REALLY,
REALLY WELL AND THINKWE ACTIVELY LISTEN.
I THINK WE'RE REALLY GOODACTIVE LISTENERS BECAUSE WE
LISTEN FOR CUES THAT ALLOW YOUTO OPEN UP OR NOT.
YOU KNOW, JIM, IN YOUR BOOK YOUMENTIONED SOMETHING THAT REALLY
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RESONATED WITH ME, AND I HAVEMY OWN EXPERIENCE THAT
MIRRORS YOURS, WHICH WAS YOUSAID AND AS YOU
JUST MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, WHEN ISHOW UP, THE FEAR AND
THE ANXIETY OF WHATWILL PEOPLE THINK OF ME?
AND YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOKHAVING INSECURITIES AROUND
YOUR OWN VOICE.
AND FOR YEARS I WOULD GETUP IN FRONT OF GROUPS ALWAYS,
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YOU KNOW, LEADING SOMETHING ANDA PART OF SOMETHING.
AND AT VISA, WE HAD A PROGRAMTHAT EVERYONE HAD TO COMPLETE
WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT IWORKED IN, AND IT WAS REALLY A
WEEK LONG BOOTCAMPABOUT ARTICULATION,
SPEECH DELIVERY, ENGAGING.
WE WERE WORKING WITH A LOT OFCLIENTS AND THAT WEEK YOU
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NEEDED TO BE RECORDED AND THENHAVE YOUR VIDEO PLAYED BACK IN
FRONT OF A LARGECLASSROOM OF PEOPLE.
AND I WAS TERRIFIED.
HORRIFYING.
I COULD FEEL IT LIKE THE HAIRSSTANDING UP IN THE BACK, RIGHT?
AND I THOUGHT, HOW AMI GOING TO DO THIS?
WE HAD COACHING SESSIONSTHROUGHOUT THE WEEK AND I BROKE
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DOWN IN TEARS TELLINGTHIS COACH, I THINK PEOPLE
THINK THIS OF ME.
I THINK I SOUND LIKE THIS.
I THINK THAT MAKES MAKESME LESS THAN.
AND YOU KNOW, AFTERTHAT WEEK, WHILE IT WAS
ANXIETY PRODUCING, I LEARNEDYOU HAVE A POWERFUL VOICE.
IT'S OKAY THE WAY IT IS.
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IT'S IT WORKS.
YOU'RE OKAY.
AND SO IT'S REALLY IT'S REALLYTOUGH TO OVERCOME THAT.
AND I DO AGREE WITH YOUMODULATING AND CODE SWITCHING
AND PRESENTING, YOU KNOW,WHETHER IT'S SHOWING UP FOR A
MEETING AND THE TOPIC IS ATOPIC THAT MAY NOT BE ONE I'M
INVOLVED IN WITH GOLF ORFANTASY FOOTBALL AND FEELING
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LIKE AN OUTSIDER ANDFIGURING OUT, YOU KNOW, ONE ONE
OF MY PRIOR COLLEAGUES,I REMEMBER IN FRONT OF AN
ENTIRE STAFF MEETING AND ITHINK THIS IS SOME PROGRESS
THAT'S HAPPENING, WAS ASKED,YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR
FAVORITE SHOWS?
AND HE STOOD RIGHT UPAND SAID, MY FAVORITE SHOW IS
RUPAUL'S DRAG RACE.
AND AGAIN,ANXIETY PRODUCING FOR ME.
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YEAH, BUT BUT HOPEFULLY ITHINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS YOU
MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK,YOU ALSO GIVE ADVICE ON SHOWING
UP AUTHENTICALLY AND NOTDISSECTING YOURSELF INTO
ACCEPTABLE AND UNACCEPTABLETHESE LIKE THESE THINGS
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF AYOUNGER QUEER PROFESSIONAL OR
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EVEN A SEASONED,BUT MAYBE SOMEWHAT
CLOSETED QUEER PROFESSIONAL.
WHAT WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVEFOR FOLKS TO BE ABLE TO BEGIN
TO SHOW UP MORE AUTHENTICALLYAND HOW DO THEY NAVIGATE IT
SAFELY?
BECAUSE SOMETIMES MAYBE ITISN'T SAFE FOR THEM FOR
WHATEVER REASON?
WELL, YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'SSUCH AN IMPORTANT WORD, DAVID.
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AND WE HAVE THAT IN COMMON FROMOUR WORK AND GLISTEN BECAUSE WE
WERE SO FOCUSED ON SAFE SCHOOLSAND THINK A LOT OF MY LEARNINGS
AND MY LINGO COME FROM THE SAFESCHOOL SIDE BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT
SAFE ENVIRONMENTS, RIGHT?
AND I MEAN, THE FIRST THING IALWAYS SAY IS PERSONAL SAFETY
AND FINANCIAL SECURITYARE OUR PARAMOUNT.
AND YOU NEVER SHOULD PUTYOURSELF IN A SITUATION.
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DON'T CARE HOW MUCHI PROMOTE LIVING AUTHENTICALLY,
WHERE YOU'RE PUTTING YOURSELFIN ANY KIND OF DANGER OF LOSING
A JOB OR PHYSICAL HARM,BECAUSE THAT'S REAL
IN OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THAT HAS TO BETHE FIRST FILTERS FOR SURE.
THE THING THAT I TALK ABOUT,AND PARTICULARLY NOW THAT I'M
OUT ON THE ROAD WITH WITH THISBOOK TOUR, IS THE GLORY OF THE
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INFORMATION AGE AND THETECHNOLOGY AGE AS YOU CAN DO A
TON OF RESEARCHON PEOPLE, GROUPS, COMPANIES,
GROUPS YOU'RE PRESENTING TO YOUBEFORE YOU GO INTO THEM.
AND SO I TELL PEOPLE,DO YOUR HOMEWORK, LIKE GO
THROUGH YOUR LINKEDIN AND SEEIF YOU KNOW ANYBODY THAT WORKS
THERE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT YOUJUST YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN KNOW.
YOU MIGHT HAVE LOST TOUCH ORREAD ON THINGS LIKE GLASSDOOR.
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THERE'S SO MANY THINGS.
THERE'S SO MANY RESOURCES NOWWHERE YOU CAN GO LIKE IF YOU
DON'T GO IN PREPARED,LIKE SHAME ON YOU IN
A WEIRD WAY.
AND YES, AS THEQUEER INDIVIDUAL, WE HAVE TO
DO THAT HOMEWORK.
SO IS THAT MORE WORK?
YES.
DOES A STRAIGHT PERSONHAVE TO DO THIS?
NO.
BUT MEAN ANY HONESTLY,ANY STRAIGHT PERSON,
ANYBODY THAT'S PITCHING A NEWJOB SHOULD DO RESEARCH ON THEIR
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EMPLOYER AND THEIR POTENTIALCLIENT OR ON
A POTENTIAL EMPLOYER.
BUT THINK WE HAVELIKE THESE NUANCES OF GOING.
A LITTLE BIT DEEPER.
DO THEY HAVE PRIDE GROUPS?
DO THEY HAVE GROUPS FOR BLACKLIVES MATTER OR WOMEN'S RIGHTS
GROUPS LIKE THAT TELLS YOU ALOT ABOUT A COMPANY.
IT TELLS YOU A LOTABOUT A SITUATION.
AND AND JUST LIKE ITELL PEOPLE, JUST DO YOUR
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HOMEWORK AND BE PREPARED ANDHAVE OPTIONS MEAN THINK THAT
MODULARITY THAT CODE SWITCHINGIS HAVING OPTIONS OF LIKE HOW
FAR YOU'RE GOING TO GO.
AND YOU KNOW, AS I GET OLDER INMY CAREER DAVID YOU'RE AT
THAT POINT TWO.
I ALSO CAN CHOOSE NOTTO WORK WITH SOMEBODY, RIGHT?
LIKE, SO IF I IF SOMETHING IFTHERE'S A RED FLAG THAT COMES
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UP IN MY RESEARCH OR SOMEBODY IRUN INTO, I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO
PUT MYSELF IN THAT SITUATION.
NOW I'M AT A DIFFERENT POINT INMY CAREER, AM NOT BEING
CAVALIER ABOUT THAT.
BUT I, I HAD THAT SITUATION INCHICAGO A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO
WHERE A YOUNG WOMAN THAT CAMETO ONE OF MY EVENTS SAID SHE
DOESN'T FEEL RIGHTAT WORK AND SAID,
HERE'S HERE'S THE THING.
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I WILL TELL YOU.
YOU ARE IN CHICAGO.
YOU HAVE AN MBA.
YOU ARE EXTREMELY MARKETABLE.
I WOULD START LOOKING FOR OTHEROPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE YOU CAN'T
CHANGE A COMPANY OVERNIGHT,BUT YOU CAN MOVE YOURSELF.
AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO WITHAGE COMES THAT WISDOM OF
KNOWING I CAN IMPACT,BUT I CAN'T CHANGE.
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I CAN'T CHANGE ANENTIRE COMPANY CULTURE.
AND IF IT'S A COMPANY CULTURETHAT'S NOT SAFE AND
NOT PROTECTIVE, I WOULD LOOKFOR A DIFFERENT ONE.
IT'S IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND I COULDN'T AGREEMORE ON THE SAFETY AND
THE FINANCIAL SECURITY.
YOU DO HAVE TO START THEREAND THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING
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IN TALKING WITH YOU THAT I KNOWTHE LISTENERS WILL BE REALLY
INTERESTED IN IS, YOU KNOW,COMING OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
WHILE IT CAN BE CHALLENGING,IT CAN BE REALLY POWERFUL.
AND WE KNOW STUDIESSHOW THAT BUSINESSES ARE
MORE PRODUCTIVE.
THEY DRIVE TO BETTER RESULTS.
EMPLOYEES ARE HAPPIER WHENTHERE'S A SUPPORTIVE
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AND INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENT.
AND SO WHEN, AS YOU SAYTO THAT, YOUR ADVICE TO YOUR
YOUR READER THAT MAYBE YOU NEEDTO LOOK FOR SOME SOME OTHER
OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE MAYBEYOU'RE NOT AT THE PLACE WHERE
CHANGE IS GOING TOBE SOMETHING YOU CAN DELIVER.
BUT I KNOW YOUR POSITIONS OFPOWER AND INFLUENCE HAVE
ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT.
SO WHAT ARE SOME MAYBE EXAMPLESYOU COULD SHARE WITH LISTENERS
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ABOUT WAYS THAT YOU, AS I SAY,HAVE USED YOUR CLOUT FOR GOOD
AND THAT IT MADE A DIFFERENCE?
WHAT ARE SOME THINGS WHERE YOUFOUND SUCCESS IN USING THAT
INFLUENCE?
YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK I THINKAS YOU MOVE UP IN YOUR CAREER
AND TAKE ON POSITIONS OFMORE RESPONSIBILITY,
WHICH USUALLY MEANS YOU HAVEMORE PEOPLE REPORTING TO YOU OR
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YOU'RE MANAGING LARGER TEAMS,UM, I HAVE WORKED OVERTIME TO
MAKE SURE THAT I'M CREATING INMY OWN WORK GROUP A
REALLY POSITIVE, PRODUCTIVE,PROTECTIVE CULTURE AND THAT
HOPEFULLY WE'RE SERVING AS AROLE MODEL AND AN INSPIRATION
TO OTHER PEOPLE IN OURCOMPANY FOR, YOU KNOW,
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GROUPS THAT WECOLLABORATE WITH, PEOPLE THAT
WE WORK WITH.
CROSS-FUNCTIONALLY I THINKTHAT'S THE BIGGEST THING IS TO
MAKE SURE YOUR HOUSE IS INORDER BEFORE YOU GO OUT AND
START JUDGING OTHER PEOPLE,FRANKLY, UM, AND THINK.
THE OTHER THING ISI'VE ALWAYS, WITH THE RISE OF
THESE RESOURCE GROUPS,PRIDE GROUPS, BLACK LIVES
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MATTER GROUPS, I'VE ALWAYSATTENDED THOSE MEETINGS,
VOLUNTEERED TO PARTICIPATE INTHOSE MEETINGS,
EVEN VOLUNTEERED TO BE ANEXECUTIVE SPONSOR IF
THEY NEED ONE.
AND NOT JUST DURING PRIDE MONTHOR BLACK HISTORY MONTH, BUT 365
DAYS A YEAR.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITEABOUT IN THE BOOK IS I NEVER
INTENDED IT, BUT JUST BY LIVINGAUTHENTICALLY AND LEADING MY
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LIFE THIS WAY, YOU BECOME ANADVOCATE AND YOU BECOME AN
ACTIVIST IN AN ODD WAY.
AND I REALIZED THAT, AGAIN,IT'S A 365 DAY YEAR COMMITMENT.
IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEARPRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH
OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORTBLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE
MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OFIT'S MY DNA AND IT'S
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MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'SVERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101 WALK THE WALK AND TALK THETALK BUT DO IT YEAR ROUND.
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I JUSTSAW UM, AND WATCH THE US OPEN
OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND ANDBILLIE JEAN KING TOTALLY WEARS
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A VERY SUBTLERAINBOW STRIPED WATCH.
AND TO YOUR POINT,SHE'S COMMITTED.
SHE'S THERE.
IT'S NOT WHAT SHETALKS ABOUT ALL THE TIME.
IT'S BUT IT IS HER IDENTITY ANDSHE'S NOT AFRAID TO TO SHOW
IT AND THINK.
YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU MENTIONEDWITH GLISTEN, WE LEARNED THAT
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IN SCHOOLS WHEN THERE'S ONE OUTSTAFF MEMBER OR INDIVIDUAL AS
PART OF THAT EDUCATION THAT.
SYSTEM, THE STATS AND THEINCLUSIVITY AND SORT OF DROPOUT
RATES AND ABSENTEERATES ALL IMPROVE.
AND AND THERE'S REPORTS OUTTHERE THAT I'VE READ THAT THE
SAME THING HAPPENSIN THE WORKPLACE.
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AND SO I THINKTHAT'S GREAT ADVICE.
IF YOU IF YOU ARE IN A POSITIONTO INFLUENCE EMPLOYEES AND
OTHER DEPARTMENTS TO TO TAKETHAT STAND, TO SAY WHO YOU ARE
AND TO SHOW UP AS YOU FEEL YOUCAN AT WORK AND YOU KNOW THE
CLOUT FOR GOOD COMMUNITY.
THE LISTENERS OF THE PODCAST,IT INCLUDES QUEER PEOPLE WHO
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ARE SAYING, HEY, WHAT CAN I DOAND HOW CAN I LEARN FROM THIS?
AND IT ALSO INCLUDES ALLIES.
AND QUITE FRANKLY, ALL THEFOLKS THAT ARE LISTENING CAN
MAKE A DIFFERENCEIN THEIR WORKPLACE.
YOU KNOW WHAT WHAT CHANGES DOYOU WANT TO SEE IN THE
WORKPLACE THAT CAN BENEFITQUEER EMPLOYEES?
YEAH.
I MEAN, I, I THINK A LOT OF THESTUFF WE'VE BEEN TOUCHING ON,
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DAVID, IS, YOU KNOW,REPRESENTATION MATTERS, RIGHT?
AND SO I, YOU KNOW, LISTEN,I WAS IN LA, CALIFORNIA FOR 25
YEARS AND SO VISIBLE OUTEXECUTIVES THERE WERE
PLENTY MEAN, NOT PLENTY,BUT BUT THEY WERE AROUND.
IT WAS NOT IT WASN'T ABNORMAL,I GUESS, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
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AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS IWROTE THIS OPINION PIECE
RECENTLY AND MEAN THE HEADLINEOF IT IS DID 25 YEARS IN
CALIFORNIA MAKE ME SOFT NOWTHAT I LIVE IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA?
RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK PART OF WHAT WEHAVE TO DO AS A COMMUNITY IS
NOT ASSUME THAT EVERY QUEERPERSON LIVES IN CALIFORNIA,
MASSACHUSETTS, CHICAGO,PORTLAND, SEATTLE, NEW YORK,
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AND THAT WE NEED TO CREATETHESE SAFE ENVIRONMENTS ACROSS
THE UNITED STATES AND FRANKLY,ACROSS THE WORLD,
BECAUSE THERE'S MANY PLACESWITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY WHERE
OUR COMMUNITY IS UNDER ATTACKON A DAILY BASIS.
AND IT'S NOT AS COMFORTABLE TOLEAD IN THOSE ENVIRONMENTS.
AND I, I THINK WHAT, YOU KNOW,PART OF THE MISSION THAT I'M ON
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NOW IS TO HELP CREATE THOSESAFE THOSE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
SAFE AND PRODUCTIVE WORKPLACESACROSS THE UNITED STATES,
THAT A QUEER EMPLOYEE IN KANSASOR IN MISSOURI OR IN FLORIDA
HAS JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TOSAFETY AND PRODUCTIVITY AS A
QUEER EMPLOYEEDOES IN CALIFORNIA.
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AND IT IS DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, THERE ARE DEFINITELYDIFFERENT LEVELS AND DIFFERENT
PROTECTIONS IN PLACE ANDDIFFERENT ATTACKS COMING
AGAINST THE COMMUNITY.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WEHAVE TO DO IS IS REPRESENT.
AND AND IF YOU'RE IN ASITUATION WHERE YOU CAN'T FULLY
REPRESENT BECAUSE I'VE HAD THISCONVERSATION LATELY, SO I STILL
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KNOW MANY GAY EXECUTIVES WHOARE IN THE CLOSET AT WORK FOR A
VARIETY OF LEGITIMATE REASONS.
WHAT I SAY TO THEM THEN IS WHENYOU GET OFF WORK, I WANT
YOU TO SERVE.
I WANT YOU TOWORK AT THE LGBT CENTER.
I WANT YOU TO WORKON LOCAL GAY CAUSES AND YOUR
LOCAL PRIDE FEST.
LIKE THEN BRING THE BESTOF YOU OUTSIDE OF WORK.
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IF YOU CAN'T DO IT ALL DAYAT WORK, THEN DO IT
OUTSIDE OF WORK.
BECAUSE THEN I STILLWANT THE BEST OF YOU.
AND THAT REPRESENTATION CANHAPPEN AFTER 6 P.M. WHEN
YOU GET HOME.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RENOT ABLE TO DO IT AT WORK.
IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND, YOU KNOW, COMING OUT,BEING A FELLOW MIDWESTERNER
GROWING UP IN MICHIGAN,NEXT NEXT DOOR TO YOU
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AND YEAH, YEAH.
YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT ILEARNED VERY EARLY IN MY COMING
OUT PROCESS WAS YOU HAVE ANOPPORTUNITY TO CREATE ALLYSHIP
JUST BY LETTING PEOPLE KNOW.
SO YOU'RE REPRESENTATIONCOMMENT AND YOU KNOW, THE FEAR
AND THE THOUGHT OF THEPOTENTIAL ISSUES THAT HAPPEN IN
PLACES LIKE THE MIDWESTOR IN THE SOUTH, ETCETERA.
(21:37):
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SURPRISED.
PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN TOKNOW ME FIRST.
AND THEN AS YOU SHAREYOUR STORY, IT CREATES THIS
REAL OPPORTUNITY AND YOU HAVETO MAKE A DECISION.
ARE YOU GOINGTO SPEND TIME EDUCATING?
ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND TIMEHAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS?
I'VE CHOSEN TO DO SO BECAUSE IWANT TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE.
BUT I THINK THAT FOLKSWILL BE SURPRISED AS THEY HAVE
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CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY FEELARE SAFE AND APPROPRIATE.
AND AND IT ACTUALLYBRINGS ME TO ANOTHER
QUESTION AROUND EDUCATION.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S THERE'S THISIDEA NOW OF, YOU KNOW,
BE EDUCATED, KNOW, UNDERSTAND,BECOME AN ALLY.
YOU CAN GOOGLE IT.
IT'S SIMPLE.
YOU CAN LEARN.
BUT, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONEWHO'S SERVED ON A LOT OF BOARDS
(22:22):
AND BEEN ENGAGED WITHA LOT OF DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES
AND ORGANIZATIONS, DO YOU HAVEANY RESOURCES THAT YOU MIGHT
SHARE WITH LISTENERS THAT COULDBE HELPFUL FOR THEM TO LEARN OR
TO GET SOME IDEAS ON HOW TOMAKE A DIFFERENCE OR BE MORE
SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT WE'RETALKING ABOUT TODAY.
CREATING A BETTER ENVIRONMENTIN THE WORKPLACE FOR.
(22:42):
PEOPLE.
YEAH ABSOLUTELY.
MEAN THINK I THINK YOU KNOW THETHE ORGANIZATION THAT WE SERVED
ON GLISTENED THE GAY LESBIANSTRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
I MEAN THERE'S SOME INCREDIBLENATIONAL NON-PROFITS IN OUR
COMMUNITY THEHUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN.
GLAD UH, TREVOR PROJECT, UH,POINT FOUNDATION LIKE THAT.
(23:03):
THERE'S A LOT TO YOUR POINT.
THERE'S A LOT OF EDUCATION ANDRESOURCES OUT THERE.
IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TAKETHE TIME, YOU KNOW, AND DO A
LITTLE BIT OF READING AND ITDOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO MAKE
DONATIONS OR PARTICIPATE.
UM, BUT JUST READ LIKE JUST,YOU KNOW, THEY ALL HAVE TOOLS
ON THEIR WEBSITE OR TOYOUR POINT, YOU CAN GOOGLE AND
FIND THE TOOLS.
BUT I THINK THE POINT THAT YOUMADE IS SO IMPORTANT AND
(23:23):
THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHY IWROTE THE BOOK IS I FEEL LIKE
THE PATH OF CIVIL RIGHTS,NOT JUST GAY RIGHTS, BUT,
YOU KNOW, WOMEN'S RIGHTS,BLACK RIGHTS, QUEER RIGHTS,
LATIN, RIGHT.
LATINX RIGHTS.
UM, IT IS STORYTELLING.
LIKE I FEELTHAT'S THE FOUNDATION.
BECAUSE WHEN WE MOVE IN NEXTDOOR TO SOMEONE LIKE THAT'S
A LOTTERY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHOYOU'RE GETTING AS A NEIGHBOR,
(23:45):
RIGHT?
YOU DON'T REALLY GET TOINTERVIEW YOUR NEIGHBORS WHEN
YOU BUY A HOUSE.
LIKE YOU KIND OF GETA SENSE OF THE COMMUNITY.
BUT WHEN YOU GOOVER AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF,
YOU'RE EDUCATING IF YOU'RE,AGAIN, WILLING TO
SHARE THE STORY.
AND I ALWAYS FEEL THAT LIKEONCE AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A
LOT IN THE 70S AND 80S, DAVID,YOU'LL REMEMBER IT'S LIKE ONCE
SOMEONE KNOWS THEY HAVE PEOPLEGAY IN THEIR LIFE AND THEY'RE
(24:06):
NOT WE'RENOT THREATENING, RIGHT?
WE'RE NOT.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, JIM'S GAY.
LIKE, HE'S LIKE, OH,HE'S AN INTERESTING GUY.
LIKE HIS DOG, RIGHT?
MEAN HE'S.
HE KEEPS HIS HOUSE NEAT, RIGHT?
LIKE, VERY MIDWESTERN.
RIGHT.
AND, AND AND BUT THEN WE BECOMELESS THREATENING, RIGHT?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THATBOTHERS ME IN THE CURRENT
SITUATION WE'RE INAS A COMMUNICATIONS PERSON,
(24:28):
AS A MARKETER, IS I FEEL TOOMUCH OF THE NARRATIVE RIGHT NOW
IS BEING DRIVEN BY THE FARRIGHT ABOUT OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THEY'RE TELLING EVERYBODYTHAT WE'RE WRONG AND WE'RE
DIFFERENT AND THAT WE'RE BROKENAND THAT, YOU KNOW, DRAG DRAG
QUEENS STORY HOURS ARE HARMFULTO CHILDREN AND DRAG SHOWS IN
GENERAL ARE HARMFUL.
ALL OF THAT NARRATIVE WE HAVETO COUNTERACT WITH OUR PERSONAL
(24:50):
NARRATIVES BECAUSE IT'S A VERYCOORDINATED ATTACK FROM THE FAR
RIGHT AND VERY WELL FUNDED.
AND I FEEL THAT WE'VE GOT TOOVERCOME THAT BY THE THOUSANDS
AND MILLIONSOF LEGITIMATE STORIES.
AND I, I THINK YOUR BILLIE JEANKING ONE IT'S SO FUNNY BECAUSE
I JUST FINISHED WATCHINGYESTERDAY WITH THE MEN'S FINAL.
YOU'RE 100% RIGHT.
(25:10):
THE OTHER THING IS HERWIFE IS ALWAYS SITTING RIGHT
BESIDE HER.
UM, SHE'S SHE'S NOT WALKINGAROUND WEARING BIG T SHIRTS AND
CARRYING A PRIDE FLAGEVERYWHERE SHE GOES, BUT SHE IS
LIVING HER AUTHENTIC LIFE.
AND TO ME, THAT ISWHAT WE ALL HAVE TO DO.
I MEAN, THAT'S HONESTLYWHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
AND AGAIN, I'M NOT CAVALIER.
I KNOW NOT EVERYONE CAN DO IT,BUT I WANT TO TRY TO CREATE
(25:33):
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE CAN.
WELL.
AND JIM, IT MAKES ITMAKES A DIFFERENCE.
I KNOW THE INSIGHTS YOU'RESHARING TODAY ARE GOING TO MAKE
A DIFFERENCE AND PEOPLE AREGOING TO PICK UP.
AND I KNOW THAT FOLKS ENGAGINGIN YOUR BOOK WILL AS WELL.
BUT ONE THING THAT I THINKWOULD BE REALLY INTERESTING,
MY LAST QUESTION FOR YOU FORFOR LISTENERS WOULD BE,
(25:55):
YOU KNOW, WHO'S INSPIRED YOUALONG THE WAY.
YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT SETTINGEXAMPLES AND TAKING TAKING THE
RISK AND DOING THIS OURSELVES.
BUT I'D LOVE FOR YOU TO IMAGINEYOU'RE HOSTING A LITTLE
DINNER PARTY, A LITTLE CLOUTFOR GOOD DINNER PARTY, WHO ARE
A FEW QUEER ICONS THAT HAVEINSPIRED YOU ALONG THE WAY,
(26:15):
AND WHY DID THEYMAKE AN IMPACT ON YOU?
YEAH, I LOVE ILOVE THIS QUESTION.
UM, I MEAN, I THINKIT WOULD BE A REALLY
INTERESTING DINNER PARTY.
LET'S JUST SAY THAT, UM, I,I OKAY, I'LL TRY AND THINK
OF THREE, BUT LARRY KRAMER.
LARRY KRAMER, FOR SURE.
(26:36):
I THINK AS A CHILD, YOU KNOW,AS A GAY MAN WHO CAME OUT
DURING THE AIDS CRISIS AND WENEVER CAN FORGET THAT.
AND BY THE WAY, WE STILL HAVEHIV AND AIDS IN OUR COMMUNITY.
BUT THE 70S AND 80S AND WHAT WEWENT THROUGH AND WHAT LARRY DID
FOR THE COMMUNITY BY BEING SOVOCAL AND SO PASSIONATE AND
SO CONTROVERSIAL,BUT CONTROVERSIAL FOR ALL THE
(26:58):
RIGHT REASONS, I THINKWE STAND ON HIS SHOULDERS.
I HAVE A PERSON IN MY LIFEWHO'S ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD
WITH ME AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY.
DAVID JACOBS, WHO IS DONATEDTHE FUNDS FOR THE JACOBS SCHOOL
OF MUSIC AND UNIVERSITY,WAS REALLY THE FIRST OUT GAY
MAN ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD OFDIRECTORS WHO HAS PAVED THE WAY
(27:22):
FOR MANY OF US IN OUR COMMUNITYAND INDIANA UNIVERSITY TO BE
FULLY SAFE AND ACKNOWLEDGED INTHOSE RANKS OF
DONORS AND PHILANTHROPISTS.
AND IT'S IT'S FUNNY THAT YOUBROUGHT HER UP, BUT I WAS GOING
TO BRING UP BILLIE JEAN KINGTODAY BECAUSE IN A WEIRD
WAY THAT, YOU KNOW,I OFTEN TELL.
THE STORY OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS ANDQUEER RIGHTS AND BLACK
(27:44):
RIGHTS GO TOGETHER.
RIGHT?
AND HER FIGHT, WHICH STARTED ASFIGHT FOR EQUAL PAY AND EQUAL
REPRESENTATION FOR WOMEN.
SHE THEN QUICKLY MOVEDON TO EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR
THE QUEER COMMUNITY.
BUT IT STARTED WITH HER WORK ONEQUAL REPRESENTATION AND RIGHTS
FOR WOMEN AND THINK SO MANY OFTHE PATHS TO CIVIL RIGHTS AND
RECOGNITION ARE VERY SIMILAR FORALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
(28:08):
AND THINK BILLIE JEAN IS SUCH AGREAT LIVING EXAMPLE OF THAT
AND AND WHAT SHE'S DONE FORWOMEN IN SPORTS IN GENERAL,
BUT THEN WHAT SHE DID FOR THEQUEER COMMUNITY AS WELL.
UM, I THINK THAT WOULDBE A REALLY FUN DINNER PARTY.
I THINK IT WOULDBE AN AMAZING DINNER PARTY.
LOVE IT.
(28:28):
YEAH, THINK.
THINK.
YOU KNOW, AND THE OTHER THEOTHER PERSON IN THAT VEIN WHO'S
TALKING ABOUT YOUR ALLYSHIP.
AND I TALKED ABOUT HER.
I WAS WITH SOMESTUDENTS LAST WEEK.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG LIKE RBG,I WISH I WOULD HAVE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO SIT AND TALKWITH THAT WOMAN BECAUSE, AGAIN,
THE WORK SHE DID FORWOMEN'S RIGHTS, SHE WAS
ACTUALLY DOING WORK FORALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
(28:50):
AND WHEN YOU GO BACK AND WATCHTHE DOCUMENTARY AND WATCH IT AS
A GAY MAN, YOU REALIZE HOW MUCHWE OWE TO THAT WOMAN AS WELL.
UM, HER JUST INTELLIGENCE ANDQUIET STRENGTH AND AND TENACITY.
SHE, TO ME, ISA PERFECT EXAMPLE OF
PERSISTENCE AND TENACITY.
WISH WOULD I WISH I WOULD HAVEHAD A RIGHT WAY TO MEET HER?
(29:11):
YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S.
THAT'S GREAT.
WELL, THANK YOU.
AND, YOU KNOW, JIM,THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.
THANKS FOR THANKS FORYOUR LISTEN, IT'S VULNERABILITY.
IT'S HONESTY.
IT'S REAL PRACTICAL ADVICE.
SO I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
AND CONGRATULATIONS ONYOUR BOOK, ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
AND FOR THOSE LISTENERS WHOWANT TO GET A COPY OF
(29:33):
THE BOOK, VISIT AMAZON,BARNES AND NOBLE SHOP, QUEER OR
WHEREVER YOU BUY YOUR BOOKS ANDBE ON THE LOOKOUT,
GO TO JIM'S SITE.
ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
HE'S ON A BOOK TOUR.
HE MAY BE STOPPING TO A CITYNEAR YOU AND TO MY LISTENERS.
THANKS SO MUCHFOR JOINING TODAY.
PLEASE TUNE IN EVERY OTHER WEEKON WEDNESDAYS FOR A NEW EPISODE.
(29:53):
FOLLOW US ON SOCIALAND VISIT CLOUD FOR GOOD.
TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER.
I HOPE THIS EPISODE GIVES YOUTHE MOTIVATION TO USE YOUR
CLOUT FOR GOOD AND TOMAKE A DIFFERENCE.
THANK YOU.
IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEARPRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH
OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORTBLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE
MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OF WHO I AM.
IT'S MY DNA ANDIT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'SVERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101, WALK THE WALKAND TALK THE TALK, BUT.
DO IT YEAR ROUND.
(00:28):
HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME.
CLOUT FOR GOOD IS A BI WEEKLYPODCAST THAT SHOWCASES PERSONAL
AND POWERFUL CONVERSATIONS WITHPROMINENT LGBTQ+ EXECUTIVES WHO
ARE OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
THE CONVERSATIONS ARE MEANT TOCREATE A SUPPORTIVE COMMUNITY
TO INSPIRE LGBTQ+ PEOPLE,THEIR EMPLOYERS AND ALLIES TO
(00:49):
BUILD EQUITY AND INCLUSIONIN THE WORKPLACE.
TODAY, I'M HONORED TOWELCOME JIM FIELDING.
JIM AND I MET YEARS AGO WHEN WEWERE BOTH SERVING ON THE
NATIONAL BOARD OF DIRECTORSFOR GLISSON, THE GAY LESBIAN
STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
JIM IS A PROUD OHIO NATIVE ANDINDIANA UNIVERSITY HOOSIER,
WHERE HE SERVES ONTHE UNIVERSITY'S FOUNDATION.
(01:12):
HE STARTED HIS CAREERON THE DEPARTMENT STORE FLOOR,
AND OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS,HE'S LED CONSUMER PRODUCT
GROUPS AT SOME OF THE WORLD'SMOST BELOVED MEDIA AND
RETAIL BRANDS,INCLUDING THE GAP, DISNEY,
CLAIRE'S, DREAMWORKS AND20TH CENTURY FOX.
JIM IS CURRENTLY APARTNER AT ARCHER GRAY,
(01:32):
AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA COMPANY.
HE'S PASSIONATE ABOUT THE QUEERCOMMUNITY AND ADVOCATES FOR
HIGHER EDUCATION FOR DIVERSITY,EQUITY AND INCLUSION,
AND RECENTLY HAS LAUNCHED A NEWBOOK TITLED ALL PRIDE NO EGO A
QUEER EXECUTIVE'S JOURNEY TOLIVING
AND LEADING AUTHENTICALLY.
(01:53):
HE'S COMMITTED TOSAFE AND AUTHENTIC SPACES
FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS.
JIM, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.
YEAH, SAME, JIM.
WELL, LISTEN, I'M REALLYEXCITED TO TALK WITH YOU TODAY.
I JUST FINISHED RECORDING.
I'VE JUST FINISHED READING ALLPRIDE AND EGO OVER
LABOR DAY WEEKEND.
YES.
I LOVE HOW YOU SHARED SO MUCHVULNERABILITY AND REALLY
(02:15):
APPRECIATE THE PRACTICAL ADVICETHAT YOU PROVIDED
FOR YOUR READERS.
GREAT.
AND IN THE BOOK YOU INCLUDED AQUOTE FROM SOMEONE I ADMIRE,
ARMISTEAD MAUPIN, THE AUTHOR OFTALES IN THE CITY, WHERE HE
STATES THAT HIS ONE REGRET INLIFE WAS HIDING HIS IDENTITY
FOR TOO LONG AND HE ENCOURAGESOTHERS NOT TO MAKE
(02:35):
THE SAME MISTAKE.
CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BITABOUT YOUR COMING OUT STORY AND
WHEN AND WHY YOU WHEN AND WHYYOU CHOSE TO DO THAT IN SOME OF
THE EXPERIENCES THATCAME ALONG WITH IT?
YEAH.
YEAH.
I MEAN, I THANK YOU SO MUCH FORSTARTING WITH THAT QUOTE.
THAT QUOTE WAS IN ASTARBUCKS CUP, BY THE WAY.
THAT'S WHERE I SAW THAT GO.
(02:56):
UM, SO, YEAH, I MEAN, I, I KNEWI WAS GAY MY ENTIRE LIFE.
I WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT IPROBABLY KNEW AT 6 OR 7.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHATIT WAS CALLED.
I WASN'T.
I WAS PRETTY SURE IT WAS WRONG.
OR AT LEAST THAT'STHE WAY I'D BEEN SOCIALIZED.
AND SO I'M ACTUALLY OFFICIALLYA LATE BLOOMER BECAUSE I,
(03:18):
I LIVED A VERY I THINK IT'SPROBABLY FAIR TO SAY BISEXUAL
LIFE FOR MOST OF MYTEENS AND INTO COLLEGE AND THEN
REALLY JUST SUPPRESSING.
I WAS A HOMOSEXUAL, BUT I WASSUPPRESSING AND THEN REALLY
CAME OUT TO MYSELF WHEN IWAS 22, BUT DIDN'T COME OUT TO
MY FAMILY OR AT WORKPROFESSIONALLY UNTIL I WAS 26.
(03:39):
AND I THINK WHY THAT QUOTERESONATES WITH ME SO MUCH IS,
UH, I REGRET.
I WONDER WHAT HIGH SCHOOL ANDCOLLEGE WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE IF
I WOULD HAVE BEEN STRONG ENOUGHTO BE OUT AND TO BE
MY AUTHENTIC SELF.
AND A LOT OF IT'S FUNNY BECAUSEI'M SUCH A MEDIA PERSON AND I
CONSUME SO MUCH CONTENT AND IGET SUPER EMOTIONAL WATCHING
(04:01):
THINGS LIKE LOVE SIMON AND LOVEVICTOR AND HEARTSTOPPER BECAUSE
I'M LIKE, THAT WASN'TMY EXPERIENCE, BUT I WANTED IT
TO BE RIGHT.
I WANTED TO GOTO HOMECOMING WITH A BOY.
I.
I KNEW THAT I WOULDHAVE BEEN HAPPIER IF I COULD
HAVE BEEN AUTHENTIC.
I KNEW THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THATQUOTE REMINDS ME OF.
(04:22):
AND SO THINK THE SECOND HALF OFMY LIFE SINCE 26, I THINK I'VE
DOUBLED DOWN ON.
THAT'S WHY I KNEW IHAD TO BE OUT AND PROUD
AND LIVE AUTHENTICALLY.
I WAS NEVER GOING TOGO BACK THE OTHER WAY.
YEAH, I JUST MY PARTNER AND IJUST FINISHED WATCHING THE
LATEST EPISODE OF HEARTSTOPPER.
SAME, SAME FEELINGS FOR ME.
(04:44):
AND YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY TALKEDOVER THE WEEKEND ABOUT I
ACTUALLY IT IT CREATES ANENORMOUS AMOUNT OF FEAR AND
ANXIETY AS I WATCH IT BECAUSEI'M SO NOT USED TO SEEING IT.
IT SO WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE THATBEING ABLE TO SEE THESE OPEN,
HONEST CONVERSATIONS AND THEAUTHENTICITY ON THE SCREEN
(05:05):
IS IS AMAZING.
AND, WELL, YOU KNOW,IN THE WORKPLACE, IT SEEMS LIKE
WE'RE COMING OUT ALL THE TIME.
A MCKINSEY MCKINSEY REPORTSTATES THAT QUEER EMPLOYEES
OFTEN COME OUT IN THEWORKPLACE EVERY WEEK.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SOMETHINGTHAT YOU SORT OF RIP THE
BAND-AID OFF AND YOU'REFINISHED AT WORK BECAUSE YOU'RE
DEALING WITH SOMANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
(05:26):
IN YOUR OWNCOMPANY AND EXTERNALLY.
AND SO YOU'RE OFTEN FACED WITHCOMING OUT AND TELLING YOUR
STORY OVER AND OVER.
AND I'M INTERESTED, YOU KNOW,WITH YOUR CAREER.
AND ALL OF THE DIFFERENTCOMPANIES YOU'VE SPANNED,
ALL THE DIFFERENT CLIENTSYOU'VE SERVED, HAVE YOU FOUND
YOURSELF OR DID YOU FINDYOURSELF HIDING YOUR IDENTITY?
(05:48):
AND HOW DID YOU HOW DID YOUOVERCOME THAT AND HOW DO YOU
APPROACH THAT TODAY?
YEAH.
NO, I MEAN, THINK THINK,DAVID IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT
CONVERSATIONBECAUSE IT'S TIRING.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
IT'S TIRING BECAUSE AS IF IWHEN I WALK INTO A ROOM,
WHEN YOU WALK INTO A ROOM UNTILWE CHOOSE TO SHARE OUR
STORY OR, AS I SAY,INVITE PEOPLE IN,
WE'RE WHITE MEN, RIGHT?
(06:09):
AND SO ALL OF THAT,THE ASSUMPTIONS AND FRANKLY,
THE PRIVILEGES THAT GO WITHWHITE MEN ARE KIND OF ON YOU
UNTIL YOU CHOOSE TOSHARE YOUR STORY.
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU'REPUT IN MORE OF A MARGINALIZED
COMMUNITY BECAUSE YOU'RE AGAY WHITE MAN.
AND I THINK ALL OF US AS QUEERLEADERS HAVE THAT CODE SWITCH
(06:32):
WHERE WE READ ROOMS ANDWE READ SITUATIONS.
AND TO YOUR POINT, WE READCLIENTS WHERE UNFORTUNATELY YOU
DECIDE HOW MUCH OF MYSELF AM IGOING TO SHARE AND HOW QUICKLY
BASED ON CONTEXT.
SO WHEN I MET YOU, YOU KNOW,WHEN YOU AND I MET AT A BOARD
OF DIRECTORS FOR GLISTENED,LIKE YOU GOT THE FULL BLOWN
(06:52):
LIKE THAT WAS THE 100% RIGHT.
BUT WHEN I WHEN I GO OUT ANDPITCH A CLIENT FOR THE FIRST
TIME OR, YOU KNOW, MEET A GROUPOF PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME,
I'M MUCH MORE CLOSE,NOT CLOSETED, I'M JUST MUCH
MORE SELECTIVE IN ARE THESEPEOPLE GOING TO GET THE FULL
STORY OR NOT?
(07:12):
AND NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO GET AJOB OR I WANT THEM TO LIKE ME.
IT'S IT'S I THINK IT'S ALMOST ASAFETY MECHANISM, RIGHT?
I THINK IT'S ALMOST A SKILLTHAT WE LEARN MEAN OUR GAYDAR,
WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
IT'S A PROTECTIVE CLOAK WE PUTON THAT SAYS, OKAY,
WAIT A MINUTE, YOU'RE GOING TOHAVE TO EARN MY TRUST A LITTLE
(07:34):
BIT AND I'M GOING TO HAVE TOFEEL THIS OUT BEFORE I FULLY
FLIP THAT SWITCH AND GIVEYOU JIM UNPLUGGED.
RIGHT.
AND I THINK.
STRAIGHT PEOPLE.
GOD LOVE THEM.
LOVE MY ALLIES.
LOVE MY STORY.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINKLIKE THAT, RIGHT?
THEY JUST ENTER A ROOMAND THEY PRESENT AS THEY ARE.
I THINK THAT WEDO THAT OUR ENTIRE LIVES,
AND IT GETS TIRING.
(07:55):
AND, UM.
BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S WHATMAKES US GOOD LEADERS
BECAUSE WE, WE READ ROOMS,WE READ CONTEXT REALLY,
REALLY WELL AND THINKWE ACTIVELY LISTEN.
I THINK WE'RE REALLY GOODACTIVE LISTENERS BECAUSE WE
LISTEN FOR CUES THAT ALLOW YOUTO OPEN UP OR NOT.
YOU KNOW, JIM, IN YOUR BOOK YOUMENTIONED SOMETHING THAT REALLY
(08:18):
RESONATED WITH ME, AND I HAVEMY OWN EXPERIENCE THAT
MIRRORS YOURS, WHICH WAS YOUSAID AND AS YOU
JUST MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, WHEN ISHOW UP, THE FEAR AND
THE ANXIETY OF WHATWILL PEOPLE THINK OF ME?
AND YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOKHAVING INSECURITIES AROUND
YOUR OWN VOICE.
AND FOR YEARS I WOULD GETUP IN FRONT OF GROUPS ALWAYS,
(08:40):
YOU KNOW, LEADING SOMETHING ANDA PART OF SOMETHING.
AND AT VISA, WE HAD A PROGRAMTHAT EVERYONE HAD TO COMPLETE
WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT IWORKED IN, AND IT WAS REALLY A
WEEK LONG BOOTCAMPABOUT ARTICULATION,
SPEECH DELIVERY, ENGAGING.
WE WERE WORKING WITH A LOT OFCLIENTS AND THAT WEEK YOU
(09:03):
NEEDED TO BE RECORDED AND THENHAVE YOUR VIDEO PLAYED BACK IN
FRONT OF A LARGECLASSROOM OF PEOPLE.
AND I WAS TERRIFIED.
HORRIFYING.
I COULD FEEL IT LIKE THE HAIRSSTANDING UP IN THE BACK, RIGHT?
AND I THOUGHT, HOW AMI GOING TO DO THIS?
WE HAD COACHING SESSIONSTHROUGHOUT THE WEEK AND I BROKE
(09:23):
DOWN IN TEARS TELLINGTHIS COACH, I THINK PEOPLE
THINK THIS OF ME.
I THINK I SOUND LIKE THIS.
I THINK THAT MAKES MAKESME LESS THAN.
AND YOU KNOW, AFTERTHAT WEEK, WHILE IT WAS
ANXIETY PRODUCING, I LEARNEDYOU HAVE A POWERFUL VOICE.
IT'S OKAY THE WAY IT IS.
(09:43):
IT'S IT WORKS.
YOU'RE OKAY.
AND SO IT'S REALLY IT'S REALLYTOUGH TO OVERCOME THAT.
AND I DO AGREE WITH YOUMODULATING AND CODE SWITCHING
AND PRESENTING, YOU KNOW,WHETHER IT'S SHOWING UP FOR A
MEETING AND THE TOPIC IS ATOPIC THAT MAY NOT BE ONE I'M
INVOLVED IN WITH GOLF ORFANTASY FOOTBALL AND FEELING
(10:04):
LIKE AN OUTSIDER ANDFIGURING OUT, YOU KNOW, ONE ONE
OF MY PRIOR COLLEAGUES,I REMEMBER IN FRONT OF AN
ENTIRE STAFF MEETING AND ITHINK THIS IS SOME PROGRESS
THAT'S HAPPENING, WAS ASKED,YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR
FAVORITE SHOWS?
AND HE STOOD RIGHT UPAND SAID, MY FAVORITE SHOW IS
RUPAUL'S DRAG RACE.
AND AGAIN,ANXIETY PRODUCING FOR ME.
(10:24):
YEAH, BUT BUT HOPEFULLY ITHINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS YOU
MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK,YOU ALSO GIVE ADVICE ON SHOWING
UP AUTHENTICALLY AND NOTDISSECTING YOURSELF INTO
ACCEPTABLE AND UNACCEPTABLETHESE LIKE THESE THINGS
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF AYOUNGER QUEER PROFESSIONAL OR
(10:48):
EVEN A SEASONED,BUT MAYBE SOMEWHAT
CLOSETED QUEER PROFESSIONAL.
WHAT WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVEFOR FOLKS TO BE ABLE TO BEGIN
TO SHOW UP MORE AUTHENTICALLYAND HOW DO THEY NAVIGATE IT
SAFELY?
BECAUSE SOMETIMES MAYBE ITISN'T SAFE FOR THEM FOR
WHATEVER REASON?
WELL, YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'SSUCH AN IMPORTANT WORD, DAVID.
(11:09):
AND WE HAVE THAT IN COMMON FROMOUR WORK AND GLISTEN BECAUSE WE
WERE SO FOCUSED ON SAFE SCHOOLSAND THINK A LOT OF MY LEARNINGS
AND MY LINGO COME FROM THE SAFESCHOOL SIDE BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT
SAFE ENVIRONMENTS, RIGHT?
AND I MEAN, THE FIRST THING IALWAYS SAY IS PERSONAL SAFETY
AND FINANCIAL SECURITYARE OUR PARAMOUNT.
AND YOU NEVER SHOULD PUTYOURSELF IN A SITUATION.
(11:29):
DON'T CARE HOW MUCHI PROMOTE LIVING AUTHENTICALLY,
WHERE YOU'RE PUTTING YOURSELFIN ANY KIND OF DANGER OF LOSING
A JOB OR PHYSICAL HARM,BECAUSE THAT'S REAL
IN OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THAT HAS TO BETHE FIRST FILTERS FOR SURE.
THE THING THAT I TALK ABOUT,AND PARTICULARLY NOW THAT I'M
OUT ON THE ROAD WITH WITH THISBOOK TOUR, IS THE GLORY OF THE
(11:51):
INFORMATION AGE AND THETECHNOLOGY AGE AS YOU CAN DO A
TON OF RESEARCHON PEOPLE, GROUPS, COMPANIES,
GROUPS YOU'RE PRESENTING TO YOUBEFORE YOU GO INTO THEM.
AND SO I TELL PEOPLE,DO YOUR HOMEWORK, LIKE GO
THROUGH YOUR LINKEDIN AND SEEIF YOU KNOW ANYBODY THAT WORKS
THERE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT YOUJUST YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN KNOW.
YOU MIGHT HAVE LOST TOUCH ORREAD ON THINGS LIKE GLASSDOOR.
(12:14):
THERE'S SO MANY THINGS.
THERE'S SO MANY RESOURCES NOWWHERE YOU CAN GO LIKE IF YOU
DON'T GO IN PREPARED,LIKE SHAME ON YOU IN
A WEIRD WAY.
AND YES, AS THEQUEER INDIVIDUAL, WE HAVE TO
DO THAT HOMEWORK.
SO IS THAT MORE WORK?
YES.
DOES A STRAIGHT PERSONHAVE TO DO THIS?
NO.
BUT MEAN ANY HONESTLY,ANY STRAIGHT PERSON,
ANYBODY THAT'S PITCHING A NEWJOB SHOULD DO RESEARCH ON THEIR
(12:35):
EMPLOYER AND THEIR POTENTIALCLIENT OR ON
A POTENTIAL EMPLOYER.
BUT THINK WE HAVELIKE THESE NUANCES OF GOING.
A LITTLE BIT DEEPER.
DO THEY HAVE PRIDE GROUPS?
DO THEY HAVE GROUPS FOR BLACKLIVES MATTER OR WOMEN'S RIGHTS
GROUPS LIKE THAT TELLS YOU ALOT ABOUT A COMPANY.
IT TELLS YOU A LOTABOUT A SITUATION.
AND AND JUST LIKE ITELL PEOPLE, JUST DO YOUR
(12:57):
HOMEWORK AND BE PREPARED ANDHAVE OPTIONS MEAN THINK THAT
MODULARITY THAT CODE SWITCHINGIS HAVING OPTIONS OF LIKE HOW
FAR YOU'RE GOING TO GO.
AND YOU KNOW, AS I GET OLDER INMY CAREER DAVID YOU'RE AT
THAT POINT TWO.
I ALSO CAN CHOOSE NOTTO WORK WITH SOMEBODY, RIGHT?
LIKE, SO IF I IF SOMETHING IFTHERE'S A RED FLAG THAT COMES
(13:20):
UP IN MY RESEARCH OR SOMEBODY IRUN INTO, I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO
PUT MYSELF IN THAT SITUATION.
NOW I'M AT A DIFFERENT POINT INMY CAREER, AM NOT BEING
CAVALIER ABOUT THAT.
BUT I, I HAD THAT SITUATION INCHICAGO A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO
WHERE A YOUNG WOMAN THAT CAMETO ONE OF MY EVENTS SAID SHE
DOESN'T FEEL RIGHTAT WORK AND SAID,
HERE'S HERE'S THE THING.
(13:40):
I WILL TELL YOU.
YOU ARE IN CHICAGO.
YOU HAVE AN MBA.
YOU ARE EXTREMELY MARKETABLE.
I WOULD START LOOKING FOR OTHEROPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE YOU CAN'T
CHANGE A COMPANY OVERNIGHT,BUT YOU CAN MOVE YOURSELF.
AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO WITHAGE COMES THAT WISDOM OF
KNOWING I CAN IMPACT,BUT I CAN'T CHANGE.
(14:02):
I CAN'T CHANGE ANENTIRE COMPANY CULTURE.
AND IF IT'S A COMPANY CULTURETHAT'S NOT SAFE AND
NOT PROTECTIVE, I WOULD LOOKFOR A DIFFERENT ONE.
IT'S IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND I COULDN'T AGREEMORE ON THE SAFETY AND
THE FINANCIAL SECURITY.
YOU DO HAVE TO START THEREAND THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING
(14:22):
IN TALKING WITH YOU THAT I KNOWTHE LISTENERS WILL BE REALLY
INTERESTED IN IS, YOU KNOW,COMING OUT IN THE WORKPLACE.
WHILE IT CAN BE CHALLENGING,IT CAN BE REALLY POWERFUL.
AND WE KNOW STUDIESSHOW THAT BUSINESSES ARE
MORE PRODUCTIVE.
THEY DRIVE TO BETTER RESULTS.
EMPLOYEES ARE HAPPIER WHENTHERE'S A SUPPORTIVE
(14:42):
AND INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENT.
AND SO WHEN, AS YOU SAYTO THAT, YOUR ADVICE TO YOUR
YOUR READER THAT MAYBE YOU NEEDTO LOOK FOR SOME SOME OTHER
OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE MAYBEYOU'RE NOT AT THE PLACE WHERE
CHANGE IS GOING TOBE SOMETHING YOU CAN DELIVER.
BUT I KNOW YOUR POSITIONS OFPOWER AND INFLUENCE HAVE
ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT.
SO WHAT ARE SOME MAYBE EXAMPLESYOU COULD SHARE WITH LISTENERS
(15:06):
ABOUT WAYS THAT YOU, AS I SAY,HAVE USED YOUR CLOUT FOR GOOD
AND THAT IT MADE A DIFFERENCE?
WHAT ARE SOME THINGS WHERE YOUFOUND SUCCESS IN USING THAT
INFLUENCE?
YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK I THINKAS YOU MOVE UP IN YOUR CAREER
AND TAKE ON POSITIONS OFMORE RESPONSIBILITY,
WHICH USUALLY MEANS YOU HAVEMORE PEOPLE REPORTING TO YOU OR
(15:29):
YOU'RE MANAGING LARGER TEAMS,UM, I HAVE WORKED OVERTIME TO
MAKE SURE THAT I'M CREATING INMY OWN WORK GROUP A
REALLY POSITIVE, PRODUCTIVE,PROTECTIVE CULTURE AND THAT
HOPEFULLY WE'RE SERVING AS AROLE MODEL AND AN INSPIRATION
TO OTHER PEOPLE IN OURCOMPANY FOR, YOU KNOW,
(15:50):
GROUPS THAT WECOLLABORATE WITH, PEOPLE THAT
WE WORK WITH.
CROSS-FUNCTIONALLY I THINKTHAT'S THE BIGGEST THING IS TO
MAKE SURE YOUR HOUSE IS INORDER BEFORE YOU GO OUT AND
START JUDGING OTHER PEOPLE,FRANKLY, UM, AND THINK.
THE OTHER THING ISI'VE ALWAYS, WITH THE RISE OF
THESE RESOURCE GROUPS,PRIDE GROUPS, BLACK LIVES
(16:10):
MATTER GROUPS, I'VE ALWAYSATTENDED THOSE MEETINGS,
VOLUNTEERED TO PARTICIPATE INTHOSE MEETINGS,
EVEN VOLUNTEERED TO BE ANEXECUTIVE SPONSOR IF
THEY NEED ONE.
AND NOT JUST DURING PRIDE MONTHOR BLACK HISTORY MONTH, BUT 365
DAYS A YEAR.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITEABOUT IN THE BOOK IS I NEVER
INTENDED IT, BUT JUST BY LIVINGAUTHENTICALLY AND LEADING MY
(16:33):
LIFE THIS WAY, YOU BECOME ANADVOCATE AND YOU BECOME AN
ACTIVIST IN AN ODD WAY.
AND I REALIZED THAT, AGAIN,IT'S A 365 DAY YEAR COMMITMENT.
IT'S NOT JUST I'M GOING TO WEARPRIDE COLORS DURING THE MONTH
OF JUNE OR I'M GOING TO SUPPORTBLACK HISTORY MONTH IN THE
MONTH OF FEBRUARY.
IT'S THIS IS PART OFIT'S MY DNA AND IT'S
(16:55):
MY RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IT'S THE IT'SVERY MUCH MANAGEMENT.
101 WALK THE WALK AND TALK THETALK BUT DO IT YEAR ROUND.
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, I JUSTSAW UM, AND WATCH THE US OPEN
OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND ANDBILLIE JEAN KING TOTALLY WEARS
(17:16):
A VERY SUBTLERAINBOW STRIPED WATCH.
AND TO YOUR POINT,SHE'S COMMITTED.
SHE'S THERE.
IT'S NOT WHAT SHETALKS ABOUT ALL THE TIME.
IT'S BUT IT IS HER IDENTITY ANDSHE'S NOT AFRAID TO TO SHOW
IT AND THINK.
YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU MENTIONEDWITH GLISTEN, WE LEARNED THAT
(17:36):
IN SCHOOLS WHEN THERE'S ONE OUTSTAFF MEMBER OR INDIVIDUAL AS
PART OF THAT EDUCATION THAT.
SYSTEM, THE STATS AND THEINCLUSIVITY AND SORT OF DROPOUT
RATES AND ABSENTEERATES ALL IMPROVE.
AND AND THERE'S REPORTS OUTTHERE THAT I'VE READ THAT THE
SAME THING HAPPENSIN THE WORKPLACE.
(17:56):
AND SO I THINKTHAT'S GREAT ADVICE.
IF YOU IF YOU ARE IN A POSITIONTO INFLUENCE EMPLOYEES AND
OTHER DEPARTMENTS TO TO TAKETHAT STAND, TO SAY WHO YOU ARE
AND TO SHOW UP AS YOU FEEL YOUCAN AT WORK AND YOU KNOW THE
CLOUT FOR GOOD COMMUNITY.
THE LISTENERS OF THE PODCAST,IT INCLUDES QUEER PEOPLE WHO
(18:19):
ARE SAYING, HEY, WHAT CAN I DOAND HOW CAN I LEARN FROM THIS?
AND IT ALSO INCLUDES ALLIES.
AND QUITE FRANKLY, ALL THEFOLKS THAT ARE LISTENING CAN
MAKE A DIFFERENCEIN THEIR WORKPLACE.
YOU KNOW WHAT WHAT CHANGES DOYOU WANT TO SEE IN THE
WORKPLACE THAT CAN BENEFITQUEER EMPLOYEES?
YEAH.
I MEAN, I, I THINK A LOT OF THESTUFF WE'VE BEEN TOUCHING ON,
(18:42):
DAVID, IS, YOU KNOW,REPRESENTATION MATTERS, RIGHT?
AND SO I, YOU KNOW, LISTEN,I WAS IN LA, CALIFORNIA FOR 25
YEARS AND SO VISIBLE OUTEXECUTIVES THERE WERE
PLENTY MEAN, NOT PLENTY,BUT BUT THEY WERE AROUND.
IT WAS NOT IT WASN'T ABNORMAL,I GUESS, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
(19:05):
AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS IWROTE THIS OPINION PIECE
RECENTLY AND MEAN THE HEADLINEOF IT IS DID 25 YEARS IN
CALIFORNIA MAKE ME SOFT NOWTHAT I LIVE IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA?
RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK PART OF WHAT WEHAVE TO DO AS A COMMUNITY IS
NOT ASSUME THAT EVERY QUEERPERSON LIVES IN CALIFORNIA,
MASSACHUSETTS, CHICAGO,PORTLAND, SEATTLE, NEW YORK,
(19:28):
AND THAT WE NEED TO CREATETHESE SAFE ENVIRONMENTS ACROSS
THE UNITED STATES AND FRANKLY,ACROSS THE WORLD,
BECAUSE THERE'S MANY PLACESWITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY WHERE
OUR COMMUNITY IS UNDER ATTACKON A DAILY BASIS.
AND IT'S NOT AS COMFORTABLE TOLEAD IN THOSE ENVIRONMENTS.
AND I, I THINK WHAT, YOU KNOW,PART OF THE MISSION THAT I'M ON
(19:49):
NOW IS TO HELP CREATE THOSESAFE THOSE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
SAFE AND PRODUCTIVE WORKPLACESACROSS THE UNITED STATES,
THAT A QUEER EMPLOYEE IN KANSASOR IN MISSOURI OR IN FLORIDA
HAS JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TOSAFETY AND PRODUCTIVITY AS A
QUEER EMPLOYEEDOES IN CALIFORNIA.
(20:10):
AND IT IS DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, THERE ARE DEFINITELYDIFFERENT LEVELS AND DIFFERENT
PROTECTIONS IN PLACE ANDDIFFERENT ATTACKS COMING
AGAINST THE COMMUNITY.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WEHAVE TO DO IS IS REPRESENT.
AND AND IF YOU'RE IN ASITUATION WHERE YOU CAN'T FULLY
REPRESENT BECAUSE I'VE HAD THISCONVERSATION LATELY, SO I STILL
(20:32):
KNOW MANY GAY EXECUTIVES WHOARE IN THE CLOSET AT WORK FOR A
VARIETY OF LEGITIMATE REASONS.
WHAT I SAY TO THEM THEN IS WHENYOU GET OFF WORK, I WANT
YOU TO SERVE.
I WANT YOU TOWORK AT THE LGBT CENTER.
I WANT YOU TO WORKON LOCAL GAY CAUSES AND YOUR
LOCAL PRIDE FEST.
LIKE THEN BRING THE BESTOF YOU OUTSIDE OF WORK.
(20:53):
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT ALL DAYAT WORK, THEN DO IT
OUTSIDE OF WORK.
BECAUSE THEN I STILLWANT THE BEST OF YOU.
AND THAT REPRESENTATION CANHAPPEN AFTER 6 P.M. WHEN
YOU GET HOME.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RENOT ABLE TO DO IT AT WORK.
IT'S GREAT ADVICE.
AND, YOU KNOW, COMING OUT,BEING A FELLOW MIDWESTERNER
GROWING UP IN MICHIGAN,NEXT NEXT DOOR TO YOU
(21:14):
AND YEAH, YEAH.
YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT ILEARNED VERY EARLY IN MY COMING
OUT PROCESS WAS YOU HAVE ANOPPORTUNITY TO CREATE ALLYSHIP
JUST BY LETTING PEOPLE KNOW.
SO YOU'RE REPRESENTATIONCOMMENT AND YOU KNOW, THE FEAR
AND THE THOUGHT OF THEPOTENTIAL ISSUES THAT HAPPEN IN
PLACES LIKE THE MIDWESTOR IN THE SOUTH, ETCETERA.
(21:37):
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SURPRISED.
PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN TOKNOW ME FIRST.
AND THEN AS YOU SHAREYOUR STORY, IT CREATES THIS
REAL OPPORTUNITY AND YOU HAVETO MAKE A DECISION.
ARE YOU GOINGTO SPEND TIME EDUCATING?
ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND TIMEHAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS?
I'VE CHOSEN TO DO SO BECAUSE IWANT TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE.
BUT I THINK THAT FOLKSWILL BE SURPRISED AS THEY HAVE
(21:59):
CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY FEELARE SAFE AND APPROPRIATE.
AND AND IT ACTUALLYBRINGS ME TO ANOTHER
QUESTION AROUND EDUCATION.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S THERE'S THISIDEA NOW OF, YOU KNOW,
BE EDUCATED, KNOW, UNDERSTAND,BECOME AN ALLY.
YOU CAN GOOGLE IT.
IT'S SIMPLE.
YOU CAN LEARN.
BUT, YOU KNOW, FOR SOMEONEWHO'S SERVED ON A LOT OF BOARDS
(22:22):
AND BEEN ENGAGED WITHA LOT OF DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES
AND ORGANIZATIONS, DO YOU HAVEANY RESOURCES THAT YOU MIGHT
SHARE WITH LISTENERS THAT COULDBE HELPFUL FOR THEM TO LEARN OR
TO GET SOME IDEAS ON HOW TOMAKE A DIFFERENCE OR BE MORE
SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT WE'RETALKING ABOUT TODAY.
CREATING A BETTER ENVIRONMENTIN THE WORKPLACE FOR.
(22:42):
PEOPLE.
YEAH ABSOLUTELY.
MEAN THINK I THINK YOU KNOW THETHE ORGANIZATION THAT WE SERVED
ON GLISTENED THE GAY LESBIANSTRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK.
I MEAN THERE'S SOME INCREDIBLENATIONAL NON-PROFITS IN OUR
COMMUNITY THEHUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN.
GLAD UH, TREVOR PROJECT, UH,POINT FOUNDATION LIKE THAT.
(23:03):
THERE'S A LOT TO YOUR POINT.
THERE'S A LOT OF EDUCATION ANDRESOURCES OUT THERE.
IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TAKETHE TIME, YOU KNOW, AND DO A
LITTLE BIT OF READING AND ITDOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO MAKE
DONATIONS OR PARTICIPATE.
UM, BUT JUST READ LIKE JUST,YOU KNOW, THEY ALL HAVE TOOLS
ON THEIR WEBSITE OR TOYOUR POINT, YOU CAN GOOGLE AND
FIND THE TOOLS.
BUT I THINK THE POINT THAT YOUMADE IS SO IMPORTANT AND
(23:23):
THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHY IWROTE THE BOOK IS I FEEL LIKE
THE PATH OF CIVIL RIGHTS,NOT JUST GAY RIGHTS, BUT,
YOU KNOW, WOMEN'S RIGHTS,BLACK RIGHTS, QUEER RIGHTS,
LATIN, RIGHT.
LATINX RIGHTS.
UM, IT IS STORYTELLING.
LIKE I FEELTHAT'S THE FOUNDATION.
BECAUSE WHEN WE MOVE IN NEXTDOOR TO SOMEONE LIKE THAT'S
A LOTTERY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHOYOU'RE GETTING AS A NEIGHBOR,
(23:45):
RIGHT?
YOU DON'T REALLY GET TOINTERVIEW YOUR NEIGHBORS WHEN
YOU BUY A HOUSE.
LIKE YOU KIND OF GETA SENSE OF THE COMMUNITY.
BUT WHEN YOU GOOVER AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF,
YOU'RE EDUCATING IF YOU'RE,AGAIN, WILLING TO
SHARE THE STORY.
AND I ALWAYS FEEL THAT LIKEONCE AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A
LOT IN THE 70S AND 80S, DAVID,YOU'LL REMEMBER IT'S LIKE ONCE
SOMEONE KNOWS THEY HAVE PEOPLEGAY IN THEIR LIFE AND THEY'RE
(24:06):
NOT WE'RENOT THREATENING, RIGHT?
WE'RE NOT.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, JIM'S GAY.
LIKE, HE'S LIKE, OH,HE'S AN INTERESTING GUY.
LIKE HIS DOG, RIGHT?
MEAN HE'S.
HE KEEPS HIS HOUSE NEAT, RIGHT?
LIKE, VERY MIDWESTERN.
RIGHT.
AND, AND AND BUT THEN WE BECOMELESS THREATENING, RIGHT?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THATBOTHERS ME IN THE CURRENT
SITUATION WE'RE INAS A COMMUNICATIONS PERSON,
(24:28):
AS A MARKETER, IS I FEEL TOOMUCH OF THE NARRATIVE RIGHT NOW
IS BEING DRIVEN BY THE FARRIGHT ABOUT OUR COMMUNITY.
AND THEY'RE TELLING EVERYBODYTHAT WE'RE WRONG AND WE'RE
DIFFERENT AND THAT WE'RE BROKENAND THAT, YOU KNOW, DRAG DRAG
QUEENS STORY HOURS ARE HARMFULTO CHILDREN AND DRAG SHOWS IN
GENERAL ARE HARMFUL.
ALL OF THAT NARRATIVE WE HAVETO COUNTERACT WITH OUR PERSONAL
(24:50):
NARRATIVES BECAUSE IT'S A VERYCOORDINATED ATTACK FROM THE FAR
RIGHT AND VERY WELL FUNDED.
AND I FEEL THAT WE'VE GOT TOOVERCOME THAT BY THE THOUSANDS
AND MILLIONSOF LEGITIMATE STORIES.
AND I, I THINK YOUR BILLIE JEANKING ONE IT'S SO FUNNY BECAUSE
I JUST FINISHED WATCHINGYESTERDAY WITH THE MEN'S FINAL.
YOU'RE 100% RIGHT.
(25:10):
THE OTHER THING IS HERWIFE IS ALWAYS SITTING RIGHT
BESIDE HER.
UM, SHE'S SHE'S NOT WALKINGAROUND WEARING BIG T SHIRTS AND
CARRYING A PRIDE FLAGEVERYWHERE SHE GOES, BUT SHE IS
LIVING HER AUTHENTIC LIFE.
AND TO ME, THAT ISWHAT WE ALL HAVE TO DO.
I MEAN, THAT'S HONESTLYWHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
AND AGAIN, I'M NOT CAVALIER.
I KNOW NOT EVERYONE CAN DO IT,BUT I WANT TO TRY TO CREATE
(25:33):
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE CAN.
WELL.
AND JIM, IT MAKES ITMAKES A DIFFERENCE.
I KNOW THE INSIGHTS YOU'RESHARING TODAY ARE GOING TO MAKE
A DIFFERENCE AND PEOPLE AREGOING TO PICK UP.
AND I KNOW THAT FOLKS ENGAGINGIN YOUR BOOK WILL AS WELL.
BUT ONE THING THAT I THINKWOULD BE REALLY INTERESTING,
MY LAST QUESTION FOR YOU FORFOR LISTENERS WOULD BE,
(25:55):
YOU KNOW, WHO'S INSPIRED YOUALONG THE WAY.
YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT SETTINGEXAMPLES AND TAKING TAKING THE
RISK AND DOING THIS OURSELVES.
BUT I'D LOVE FOR YOU TO IMAGINEYOU'RE HOSTING A LITTLE
DINNER PARTY, A LITTLE CLOUTFOR GOOD DINNER PARTY, WHO ARE
A FEW QUEER ICONS THAT HAVEINSPIRED YOU ALONG THE WAY,
(26:15):
AND WHY DID THEYMAKE AN IMPACT ON YOU?
YEAH, I LOVE ILOVE THIS QUESTION.
UM, I MEAN, I THINKIT WOULD BE A REALLY
INTERESTING DINNER PARTY.
LET'S JUST SAY THAT, UM, I,I OKAY, I'LL TRY AND THINK
OF THREE, BUT LARRY KRAMER.
LARRY KRAMER, FOR SURE.
(26:36):
I THINK AS A CHILD, YOU KNOW,AS A GAY MAN WHO CAME OUT
DURING THE AIDS CRISIS AND WENEVER CAN FORGET THAT.
AND BY THE WAY, WE STILL HAVEHIV AND AIDS IN OUR COMMUNITY.
BUT THE 70S AND 80S AND WHAT WEWENT THROUGH AND WHAT LARRY DID
FOR THE COMMUNITY BY BEING SOVOCAL AND SO PASSIONATE AND
SO CONTROVERSIAL,BUT CONTROVERSIAL FOR ALL THE
(26:58):
RIGHT REASONS, I THINKWE STAND ON HIS SHOULDERS.
I HAVE A PERSON IN MY LIFEWHO'S ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD
WITH ME AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY.
DAVID JACOBS, WHO IS DONATEDTHE FUNDS FOR THE JACOBS SCHOOL
OF MUSIC AND UNIVERSITY,WAS REALLY THE FIRST OUT GAY
MAN ON THE FOUNDATION BOARD OFDIRECTORS WHO HAS PAVED THE WAY
(27:22):
FOR MANY OF US IN OUR COMMUNITYAND INDIANA UNIVERSITY TO BE
FULLY SAFE AND ACKNOWLEDGED INTHOSE RANKS OF
DONORS AND PHILANTHROPISTS.
AND IT'S IT'S FUNNY THAT YOUBROUGHT HER UP, BUT I WAS GOING
TO BRING UP BILLIE JEAN KINGTODAY BECAUSE IN A WEIRD
WAY THAT, YOU KNOW,I OFTEN TELL.
THE STORY OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS ANDQUEER RIGHTS AND BLACK
(27:44):
RIGHTS GO TOGETHER.
RIGHT?
AND HER FIGHT, WHICH STARTED ASFIGHT FOR EQUAL PAY AND EQUAL
REPRESENTATION FOR WOMEN.
SHE THEN QUICKLY MOVEDON TO EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR
THE QUEER COMMUNITY.
BUT IT STARTED WITH HER WORK ONEQUAL REPRESENTATION AND RIGHTS
FOR WOMEN AND THINK SO MANY OFTHE PATHS TO CIVIL RIGHTS AND
RECOGNITION ARE VERY SIMILAR FORALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
(28:08):
AND THINK BILLIE JEAN IS SUCH AGREAT LIVING EXAMPLE OF THAT
AND AND WHAT SHE'S DONE FORWOMEN IN SPORTS IN GENERAL,
BUT THEN WHAT SHE DID FOR THEQUEER COMMUNITY AS WELL.
UM, I THINK THAT WOULDBE A REALLY FUN DINNER PARTY.
I THINK IT WOULDBE AN AMAZING DINNER PARTY.
LOVE IT.
(28:28):
YEAH, THINK.
THINK.
YOU KNOW, AND THE OTHER THEOTHER PERSON IN THAT VEIN WHO'S
TALKING ABOUT YOUR ALLYSHIP.
AND I TALKED ABOUT HER.
I WAS WITH SOMESTUDENTS LAST WEEK.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG LIKE RBG,I WISH I WOULD HAVE HAD THE
OPPORTUNITY TO SIT AND TALKWITH THAT WOMAN BECAUSE, AGAIN,
THE WORK SHE DID FORWOMEN'S RIGHTS, SHE WAS
ACTUALLY DOING WORK FORALL MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES.
(28:50):
AND WHEN YOU GO BACK AND WATCHTHE DOCUMENTARY AND WATCH IT AS
A GAY MAN, YOU REALIZE HOW MUCHWE OWE TO THAT WOMAN AS WELL.
UM, HER JUST INTELLIGENCE ANDQUIET STRENGTH AND AND TENACITY.
SHE, TO ME, ISA PERFECT EXAMPLE OF
PERSISTENCE AND TENACITY.
WISH WOULD I WISH I WOULD HAVEHAD A RIGHT WAY TO MEET HER?
(29:11):
YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S.
THAT'S GREAT.
WELL, THANK YOU.
AND, YOU KNOW, JIM,THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.
THANKS FOR THANKS FORYOUR LISTEN, IT'S VULNERABILITY.
IT'S HONESTY.
IT'S REAL PRACTICAL ADVICE.
SO I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
AND CONGRATULATIONS ONYOUR BOOK, ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
AND FOR THOSE LISTENERS WHOWANT TO GET A COPY OF
(29:33):
THE BOOK, VISIT AMAZON,BARNES AND NOBLE SHOP, QUEER OR
WHEREVER YOU BUY YOUR BOOKS ANDBE ON THE LOOKOUT,
GO TO JIM'S SITE.
ALL PRIDE, NO EGO.
HE'S ON A BOOK TOUR.
HE MAY BE STOPPING TO A CITYNEAR YOU AND TO MY LISTENERS.
THANKS SO MUCHFOR JOINING TODAY.
PLEASE TUNE IN EVERY OTHER WEEKON WEDNESDAYS FOR A NEW EPISODE.
(29:53):
FOLLOW US ON SOCIALAND VISIT CLOUD FOR GOOD.
TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER.
I HOPE THIS EPISODE GIVES YOUTHE MOTIVATION TO USE YOUR
CLOUT FOR GOOD AND TOMAKE A DIFFERENCE.
THANK YOU.
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