Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I think you have tobe as authentic as is
comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experienceis individual, and what's right
for me is never goingto be right for someone else.
Even if you're in a place thatdoesn't feel wholly welcoming,
I'm sure there are people whowould would be more welcoming.
So I think find your people,seek them out, share as much as
(00:20):
you're comfortable sharing.
And if it's not the place thatyou feel like you can be your
whole self, is thatthe right place for you?
Hello everyone and welcome!Clout for Good is a bi weekly
podcast that showcases personaland powerful conversations with
prominent LGBTQ+ executives whoare out in the workplace.
(00:42):
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire LGBTQ+ people,their employers, and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcomeAmy Martin Zeigenfuss,
who's the Chief MarketingOfficer for
Carnival Cruise Lines.
At Carnival, Amy is focused onpositioning the brand for
(01:04):
the future, continuing toevolve the through line
experience and the marketingexperience to drive business
performance and brand love withcustomers of today and tomorrow.
Amy has a personal passion fortravel and a deep appreciation
for the travel industry.
Making it more accessible fortravelers is a top priority.
(01:25):
She's committed to developing aculture of inclusivity where
there's space for diversevoices and backgrounds.
She also sits on the board ofthe international Gay and
Lesbian Travel Association.
Amy and her wife, Joanna,split their time
between Washington, D.C. andRehoboth Beach, Delaware.
So, Amy, welcome to the show.
(01:47):
Thank you so much, David.
It's fantastic to be here.
And I love thatyou're doing this.
David.
It's it's such a great thingthat we need to talk more about.
I think in, in this space,especially when it comes
to work, as you andI were chatting about earlier.
So, um, you know, I, I figuredout that I was a lesbian,
identify as alesbian, um, in college.
(02:08):
And, um, that sort of changedmy worldview a bit, as it does
for many people when yousort of, you know, figure out
who you are.
Um, and, you know, I did thecoming out to family and
friends over time, um, and Iwas lucky that I didn't have
supernegative experiences there.
So, um, you know, someof the usual stuff where it's,
(02:31):
you know, a bit of a shock topeople and, you know, you do
feel like you're lettingpeople down,
which never feels great.
But in the end,I was pretty supported.
Um, and my first job, I workedat an agency, as you,
as you mentioned.
And I didn't feel comfortable,um, being out there, I think
because I was trying toprove myself, and I felt like
(02:51):
there was enough for me to do,um, just kind of trying to
figure out how to howto work for a living.
And, you know, um,even though agencies are pretty
inclusive as, as far as placesto work, it wasn't like I was
in a buttoned up corporateenvironment at the time, but I
just didn't feel Ididn't feel good about it.
So I there were a couple peoplewho knew they were gay, too.
(03:13):
Um, so I felt comfortablesharing with them, but I wasn't
out more broadly.
And it, it was uncomfortablebecause I made great
friends there, and Isort of was living this.
It felt likea double life, right?
I was not beingmy authentic self.
I felt like I waslying, um, because I would do
the avoidance, you know,and not use the pronouns and,
(03:33):
you know, all the things, um,that, you know, we in the
community know all about.
Um, and so eventuallyI thought, I can't
do this anymore.
I've gotta, I gotta change this.
And so I remember, um,talking to a girl friend
of mine, a straight girl friendof mine, and I just thought,
I'm gonna just tell her.
And so, um.
And I was worried because shehad grown up very in a very
(03:55):
religious household and from aconservative background, and I
just I just thought, I don'tknow how this is going to go.
And, um, she couldn't havebeen more supportive.
I mean, she was amazing when Ifinally told her, um, and we
joked about it and in the end,and we're still close friends
to this day.
So it was a really Iwas so glad when I did it.
I was able to, you know,then be out at work and
(04:17):
I thought, I'm nevergoing to do that again.
Now, whenever I start anew job, I pull it off like
a Band-Aid, tell everybodyabout my wife, Joanna,
so that, um, noone can can be confused.
Um, and that that hasthat has worked for me.
But I know it.
I know how hard it is becauseit's it's it's never, never,
never easy.
Especially when you're tryingto prove yourself.
(04:40):
Yeah.
And, you know, and I think oneof the, one of the studies
I've read, uh, McKinsey study,also says that LGBTQ people
often are finding themselvescoming out at work every week.
So they're also to your point,maybe you're ripping sort of
the initial Band-Aid off asyou're entering and letting
people know, but it's alsosomething that we continually
(05:02):
need to do.
Have you foundthat yourself as well?
And have there been timesmaybe also, you know,
because that can be, I think,for some exhausting, you know,
always, always finding ways tocome out, always having to tell
who you are.
Have you found yourself?
Have you?
You know, it sounds like maybein your first job, but along
the way, even after you've beenan out employee, have you found
(05:24):
yourself maybe notsharing as much?
And have there beenreasons why that's happened?
Are you?
Yeah, I think I think,you know, the one thing that
was interesting was thepandemic felt a bit like
a relief, I think, for alot of, of people from a
diverse backgrounds andminorities because, you know,
I heard from a lot of my, um,colleagues and girlfriends who
(05:45):
are black, um, who havetextured hair, that it was a
relief not to have to talkabout that all the time
in the office.
Um, and have people be like,oh, you changed your hair again.
And it just wasexhausting for them.
And I do think coming out overand over and over again because
people assume thatyou're straight, right?
People assume that, you know,you must be straight.
(06:05):
Um, you know, that is tiring.
And in fact, I wastaught this by a younger LGBTQ+
community member, you know, um,older gay guy and I who headed
the employee resource group atHilton were saying, well,
you know, is iteasier for you these days?
Kind of assuming that hewould say yes.
And, you know,because we're like, well,
(06:26):
you know, um, bad assumptionand and he said, you know,
same thing.
People stillassume he's straight.
And so he still feelslike he has to come out.
And even though it's a morewelcoming environment maybe,
than we were coming up insome respects, you know,
for him it was it's exhausting.
So I do think yeah,I think there are times,
especially when I'm at aconference or something, I just
(06:47):
sort of I don'twant to talk about it.
I change the subject.
I just don't feel likegoing there, you know?
Um, because it's tiring.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tiring.
And I think, you know, I alwayshave tried to say I'm willing
to give the effort.
I'm willing to do this becauseI want to change.
I want to create change.
I want people to be comfortableand and but it is exhausting.
(07:07):
And I also wonder, you know,one of the things, as I have
navigated my own career,I realized that going and
moving up the corporate ladder,that I got to
use my white privilege and mymale privilege often didn't
necessarily know that Iwas doing it.
But I found myself in thisposition of of understanding
(07:29):
and realizing that as I movedup and I wonder, you know,
with the intersectionality ofall of us and sort of the
complicated makeup of all of usidentifying as a lesbian and
navigating the workforce asa lesbian, you at least have
gender and sexuality andprobably other things.
(07:49):
Have you found or do you thinkthere's any unique challenges
or any unique things that havehappened identifying that with
that intersectionality?
I think, yeah, Ithink it's a great question.
I think, you know, oneof the things that I didn't
realize was, you know, the nameof your of your podcast and
your organization, that Ido have clout.
(08:10):
I never realized that.
I didn't realize to your pointthat I had the privilege that
comes from being awhite, uh, lesbian woman.
Um, and, you know, I,I always, you know,
thought about the things thatwere hard for me.
Um, but then I didn't realizethat I actually get, you know,
invited to more tablesin more rooms and more
conversations than others.
(08:32):
Um, particularly women of color,men of color, um,
and and people of our communitywho are of color, right?
Or transgendered in particular.
So, um, so I realized,you know, that it was it was
important for me to try tocreate space for those voices
and to try to, you know,make room at the table.
And and so I really tried tobecome more of a sponsor.
(08:54):
I think I was always I think itwas an ally, but I was more
of a, a silent ally, you know,you know, supportive but not
really doing much.
And I learned more aboutsponsorship and what that means.
And I that's been a reallypowerful journey for me because
it feels like, um,while I've definitely,
you know, faced my fairshare of things.
Right.
(09:15):
Um, I feel like turning that onits head and using it as a
force for good is reallyempowering and really feels,
um, you know, just feels likethe right thing to do.
And I get so much out of it.
I love it, I love it, yeah.
And I'm sure make a hugedifference because of it.
And you know,one other question is
maybe full of stereotypes.
(09:37):
Um, but it's you work in thetravel industry, and I think
there is an impression,at least amongst our
own queer community.
You know, there's the all ofthe all queer people
love to travel.
And there's also thisimpression that, you know,
maybe the travel industry ismore welcoming and
easier to navigate.
I had an experience when I wason the board of the Gay Lesbian
(09:58):
Straight Education Network,where I was going to meet with
the the school boardin San Francisco.
And I thought, well,this will be easy.
And we're in San Francisco,their school climate and
their environment, it's goingto be great.
And in fact, when I went in andand I actually uncovered we,
we had a benchmarking study andI found found really the
(10:19):
environment in San Francisco isnot too different than a school
district in Middle America.
And so I think, you know,there's this perception travel
industry is accepting it's.
Exciting.
It's diverse.
Is that the case, or are therestill challenges that you feel
the industry is trying tonavigate to really create an
equitable and inclusiveworkplace for all,
(10:40):
and especiallyits queer employees?
Yeah, I think, um, Ido think it's it's both things.
Um, so I would say that I dothink travel, um, attracts a
more diverse set ofpeople anyway, and especially
it seems like theLGBTQ+ community,
maybe we're more adventurous.
I don't know, um, uh, but itdoes seem to attract that.
(11:03):
So there is I've, I have alwaysfelt like there's a,
there's a, you know,bigger percentage of us
represented within it.
Um, and that has led usto be, I think, more at
the forefront,especially for employees,
but also for travelers.
You do have to be welcoming forall you you know, it's it's
it's not it's hospitality initself is non-discriminatory.
It's about opening yourdoors to everyone.
(11:23):
So that's definitely,I think, true.
I don't have the data toprove it, but um, but but the
thing I would say on the flipside is, you know, just like
most companies, um,in the world, the travel
industry is no different inthat it is mostly run
by white, straight men.
So, yeah, um, you know,while while our front lines and
(11:44):
our middle ranks are muchmore diverse, I think, um,
you know, unfortunately,we still have work to be done
at the top on boards, um,and in and in the
C-suite for sure.
And, Amy, you made me I'mchuckling a little bit.
You've made me remember theDamron Guide, our guide to how
do we navigate the travel spaceas a, as a queer member of the
(12:06):
queer community tofind gay friendly hotels?
So we don't have that awkwardcheck in experience and all
sorts of things.
So it's definitely,definitely come a long way.
But as you mentioned earlyon with, you know, in your
first job, you were reallyfocused on you.
Listen, I need to prove myself.
I want to buildmy career and establish myself.
(12:26):
I think that's such a placethat many people find
themselves in even afterthat first job.
You know, I think it may be oneof the impediments to trying to
be authentic is I really needto protect my career.
I want a promotion.
I want tobe, you know, respected, etc.
.
What you know, a lot of folksthat are listening are,
(12:49):
you know, wanting to hear aboutthese experiences and how folks
have navigated them.
What advice would you givesomeone who's maybe a little
newer to the workforce or maybeeven closeted in the workforce?
But thinking about I might wantto show up a little differently.
What?
What words of advice might yougive for folks to navigate that?
(13:09):
I think you have tobe as authentic as is
comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experienceis individual, and what's right
for me is never goingto be right for someone else.
Um, so you definitely have tonavigate that in a way
that feels, you know,true to yourself.
Having said that, um, even ifyou're in a place that doesn't
feel wholly welcoming, I'm surethere are people who would
(13:31):
would be more welcoming.
So I think findyour people, seek them out.
Um, share as much asyou're comfortable sharing.
Um, and and if it's not theplace that you feel like you
can be your whole self, is thatthe right place for you?
Should you look elsewhere?
I know that's easiersaid than done.
So I'm not trying tooversimplify it, but I do think
finding a place that willwelcome you and welcome the
(13:52):
whole you, um, life is just tooshort to work anywhere else,
right?
So so try to find that.
Find the people whowill support you.
Find out if your organizationhas resources, because,
you know, a lot oforganizations these days do
have employee resource groups.
I've, I've led them, um,and been part of them.
And they are amazing.
You know, I, I getso much out of them.
(14:13):
I know that members do.
And they create a safe space.
Um, whether it's officialor unofficial,
there's usually a network.
We know how to find each other.
Um, so I would say seek thatout and that will be your
support whether you come outbig or small.
Um.
Find that, find your people.
I that's great advice.
And I think you're right.
There's that secret slackchannel in some
(14:34):
companies or otherwise.
But seeking and I think justcome a long way from maybe when
we were entering, entering theworkforce and there weren't
official quote unquote,channels and organizations to,
to be a part of.
And I think the employeeresource group is such
a great, great suggestion.
Um, you know, one of the thingsI'm interested in is you have
(14:55):
this really impressive career,all of these brands
that really, you know,have created things that all of
us have experienced, you know,experiencing travel and
experiencing new places and,and your involvement
with diversity, equity,inclusion at those companies.
And as you mentioned, I knowyou have been an executive
sponsor of of theemployee resource groups.
(15:17):
What do you think?
Um, are a few things you wouldshare about your experience
where you have used, as Icall it, your Klout for good,
like you referenced,where you've used your outlets
in a way that.
Created change or created apositive outcome for the
workplace or yourteam or employees.
What are some examples youcould share that you're proud
(15:39):
of over your career?
Yeah, I've been luckyenough to have a couple.
Um, for sure.
Probably more thanI'm not remembering.
But, um, you know,I've definitely been a sponsor
for things that, um,diverse employees are really,
um, passionate about and maybewouldn't have been able to get
visibility onto, um, otherwise.
(16:00):
For instance, um, wetalked a little earlier about
textured hair, um, when I wasin the hotel space.
Um, you know, something thathotels don't do a good job of
is providing hair care productsfor textured hair?
Um, so I had some, um,amazing black women on
my team, um, who were reallypassionate about running a test
to to offer thoseproducts on request.
(16:21):
Um, we lined up, they, they,in fact, lined up, um,
you know, a test partner.
And we sold it in, andI acted as the sponsor for it.
And I was so happy to dothat because, you know, it was
important to them.
It's important to thecustomer base, you know, and I
was really happy that, um,that I could help to get that
forward and to see itbe a success.
That was amazing.
(16:43):
Um, and then a little morespecifically to our community,
and I mentioned earlier beingpart of the employee resource
groups and, um, one of theyounger LGBTQ+ members asked,
um, myself and, and a colleagueof mine to host a panel, um,
where we would talk about our alittle bit like this panel,
(17:04):
actually, or thisconversation, a little
bit about about our our journeycoming up as gays, gay people
in the workplace.
And we sort of were like, sure,we're happy to do that, but how
is that reallygoing to be useful?
Because, you know, we justthought, well, we don't
really have much toshare on this.
And, you know, the experiencetoday is so different.
That whole thingabout the assumptions.
Right.
And sure, we're obviously set,you know, set, uh, uh,
(17:27):
set right on that.
But um, in the course ofthat conversation, we did
share a lot.
He askedsuch thoughtful questions.
And at the endwe opened it for questions.
And someone, um, an LGBTQ+person from the Middle East
asked a questionabout coming out.
He was on the cuspof coming out to his family.
Um, and he just hewanted to, you know, just get
(17:47):
ideas and approaches.
And so, you know,we tried to give support.
I mean, obviously we didn'thave the answers
but give support.
And then the outpouring fromthe employee resource group
members to himwas just incredible.
And he came back to us aweek later, and he had come out
to his family and it went well.
And that was an incrediblemoment where I just I
(18:08):
felt like, wow, if I had turnedthat down, if I'd said, I'm too
busy or it doesn't make sense,what would have happened in his
life?
I mean, he would havebeen fine, of course, but how
amazing that I could bepart of helping him with such
a moment.
That is amazing.
It's.
And I think that's thepower of, you know,
my experience withemployee resource groups.
One of the one of the reasons Iwanted to start Clout for
(18:31):
Good was, you know,your example of, you know,
sometimes I think folks who areout in the workplace, we, we,
we show up and say, yes,this is my partner or wife,
and here's what I do.
But I think sharing ourexperiences like we're
doing here, you know, the factof the matter is, less than a
percent of US public boardseats are occupied by members
(18:53):
of the queer community.
And so I thinkthere's definitely this.
I'm not sure if I see it.
I'm not sure that Iknow what the path could be.
So I think sharing thesestories is, is really,
really important for sure.
And, you know, one of thethings with your experience,
you know, both with theemployee resource groups and as
an executive, what are some,you know, many of the members
(19:16):
of the cloud for good communityand listeners, they want to
make a difference.
Maybe it's with their own, um,coming out journey or showing
up more authentically, but whatdo you think some of the things
are that you'd recommendcompanies consider?
What are some things that maybethey could be more mindful
of or, you know, maybe somethings you've tried and
they've worked, or what aresome suggestions that folks
(19:38):
could take back and say, hey,I might might be able to try to
do this in my own workplace.
Yeah.
And I think if it'sif it's less formal as well,
that's okay.
Right.
Like we talked about earlier,um, I do think creating those
safe spaces soempowering, um, you know,
LGBTQ+ executives to, to mentoror, or sponsor or,
(20:00):
you know, create coffee chatsor whatever it looks like it
doesn't have to be a formalemployee resource group.
I mean, that's greatif if that's something that
can be done.
Um, but, you know,just creating those safe spaces
for people to share stories orconnect or know that they're
not the only ones, um, I thinkis is really, really powerful.
I do think mentorship, um,and creating those kinds
(20:22):
of connections, you know,kind of if you've got new
people coming in the door and,and you have a hunch that you.
Help them.
Why not?
I mean, I do think Ido think it's powerful to hear
other people's stories.
And that's something thateveryone can do one on one,
right?
It doesn't have to be in abig forum, on a panel
or a podcast.
It can just be, you know, hey,this is my experience.
(20:44):
I know you're, you know,you're going to chart your
own course, but letme share mine.
And and that can oftenbe really powerful.
To your point, I alwaysthought, oh, no one
really wants to hear about,you know, all the things that
I've done and gone through.
You know, it's old,it's old history, but it's it's
actually really,really instructive for people.
It's not like they're going todo it the same way.
But so I do think those arereally important things.
(21:07):
And then, you know, connecting.
We have such great resourcesin our community.
I was thinking about, um,the LGBT Chamber of Commerce is
such a great resource.
Um, for instance, for smallercompanies or even individuals.
Um, so there's there's lots ofthings out there too.
It doesn't have tojust be something that
you create yourself.
Yeah, I love it.
And I one of the insights thatI have pulled from Employee
(21:30):
resource Group is periodicallywe would survey our ERGs and
find out, you know, how arethings going and what
do you need.
And and within the, you know,the LGBTQIA+ ERG inevitably
over the last several decadesworking in that space,
the thing that always bubblesto to the top is community.
(21:52):
And I think what you'rereferencing and being able to
have those connections and thatsupport and a safe space,
just like you said.
So I think there's thisimpression it's, you know,
the ERG is going to be fightingfor whatever is the hot topic
of the moment.
You know, having your pronounson the email signature,
having a gender neutral.
And in fact, they will.
But I think above that iscommunity and the power of
(22:16):
being able to make theconnection to one another.
And, you know, you can'tnecessarily always find
each other, as we've kindof talked about.
Well, um, well,you've talked about, um, the,
uh, LGBT Chamber of Commerce,any other as you've navigated
your career andyou've navigated, um, being a
part of this community,any other tools or resources or
(22:38):
books or any other things thatyou'd recommend to to folks
that are listening today thatmight help them in their career
journey or their, um,LGBTQ journey?
Yeah, it's agood question, I think.
Um, you know, I, Iam a member of HRC.
Um, that's been really helpfulto me over the years.
Great resources there.
(23:00):
You know, it has helped.
I have been involved withhelping my companies figure out
some of the things wewant to do for employees,
like health care,for domestic partners.
Back in the day when that wasthat was a new thing.
Um, and I went to them forresources on how to do that.
Um, so I definitely havefound them, them helpful
over the years.
Um, you know, on apersonal note, I really
(23:22):
whenever I need a bit of a liftand I'm feeling a bit like, oh,
this is hard work.
Um, you know, life in general.
Uh, I loveGlennon Doyle's podcast.
We Can Do Hard Things.
Um, it just always givesme a boost.
Um, you know, they're always soon point and so great at
humanizing things and puttingtheir finger on the button,
(23:43):
the things.
So I really I reallyenjoy that one.
Um, so those aresome of the things that,
that I found useful.
I love and maybe tell us alittle bit about, you know,
given your connection toyour industry, tell us a little
bit about um, IGL to and,and what they do and
what their, their purpose is.
I've heard about them overthe years, and to be honest,
I'm not sure I know exactlywhat they do and how they
(24:04):
serve the community.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, they'refantastic organization.
Um, so they are really amembership organization for
LGBTQ+ travel companies,small companies.
So think travel agencies, um,wholesalers, um, you know,
certainly convention visitorbureaus are members.
(24:28):
But a lot of, you know,people who are planning, um,
travel for tour operators,for the LGBTQ+ community,
making it safe, likewe were talking about earlier,
especially maybe in places thatare can be less welcoming.
Um, you know, but butlots of other things, too.
Gay cruises, um, you know,gay resorts, um, and all those
(24:48):
sorts of things.
So the so I glt itself isreally a resource and a
membership associationfor those companies.
Um, and we, you know,we help, um, you know,
with thought leadership, we,we host think tanks on kind of
how to helpmarkets and convention and
visitors bureaus, um,and cities be more welcoming,
(25:09):
um, to our community.
Um, and then we go all the waydown to, you know, helping with
resources for how theycan market themselves.
Our members canmarket themselves better.
Or, for instance, right now wehave a big focus on what can we
do to support businesses thatare in Florida and other states
that are, you know,undergoing some some really,
you know, hard times when itcomes to to our community and
(25:32):
safety and welcoming.
So, um, and we do surveysto understand, you know,
what's important to travelers,um, in our community.
And that obviously helps us tothen advise our members.
So it's really it'sa fantastic organization.
Um, really unique.
Um, it's international.
Um, every other year we hostour convention, um, outside the
borders of the US this year,next week, it's in Puerto Rico.
(25:54):
Next year it'll be in Japan.
Um, but we we really,you know, try to make sure
we're moving it around theworld to, to get as much
visibility as we can.
That's great.
That sounds that sounds amazing.
Well, one, Amy,one final question.
So, you know, I think listenerstoday will will leave and and
be inspired by someof these things you've done.
(26:15):
And we'll, we'll seek to learnmore about you and the
work you've done.
And, and one of the things thatI ask everyone is, you know,
who's inspired you alongthe way, who have been, um,
figures, queer icons or not.
But but you're hosting a Kloutfor good dinner party.
You're gonna you're gonnainvite 2 or 3 icons that
(26:38):
inspired you, um,through your journey.
Who are some of those folksthat you might invite and why?
Yeah, that's a great one.
Um, I love a dinner party.
Um, I was thinking about that,and I think I was thinking
about Oscar Wilde.
Um, because he was, you know,so incredibly daring for
the times, right, that helived in, um, and, you know,
(27:00):
wrote in an authentic way for,for those times and, and,
you know, got in trouble.
Um, and I think it wasimprisoned for a while as well.
So.
Wow, what an incredible guy.
He would have had to be at adinner party because he would
have stories to tell.
Um, and then my first twokind of, I think when I started
to realize, without knowing thename for it, that I was gay
(27:21):
was in, um, I was I thinkI was in middle school and, um,
and I got, Iasked for, for Christmas
the George Michael.
Well, the wham it waswham bam bam.
I love GeorgeMichael and Madonna.
True blue.
I'm dating myself.
But, um, those were the twoalbums I wanted, and I'm like,
oh, my, look at that.
Um, and I just adore bothof them, so I would love
(27:42):
to have them.
Um, there and bringGeorge back from the beyond.
Um, and then I'm going to geekmyself out a little bit here
and say, Eleanor of Aquitaine.
She is my historical icon.
She lived in the 12th century,um, between France
and England, and wasa badass woman.
Um, for those times, she wenton the Crusades with
(28:05):
her husband, the King of France.
At the time.
Women did not go oncrusade back then.
Um, but she did, um, and shewas Queen of France and Queen
of England and ruled in herhusbands and and sons dead,
and did it much better,frankly, than most of them.
So she was just aforce, um, at a time.
And she also, um,was responsible for, um,
(28:27):
sort of chivalry and the ideaof chivalry and, and so she
had this, you know, hard anddriving exterior, but she also
made time for the finerthings in life.
And I justthink she's incredible.
And I'd love to havedinner with her.
That is awesome.
I, I, I don't know anythingabout her, but she's a traveler.
She's a leader.
She's a hospitality pro.
I it's perfect.
(28:48):
It's perfect for Amy.
And I was asked nottoo long ago about your coming
on stage music.
And so I think you'llget a kick.
I immediately, without evenskipping a beat, I said it's
Freedom by George Michael.
I said immediately that love.
That's such a great song.
So I'd love to beat this dinner party for sure.
Those are all really,really great ones.
(29:09):
Well, Amy.
Yeah, well, Amy, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Thanks for beingopen and honest.
And as you know, you learnthrough some of those
experiences while at work.
Sharing these stories domake a difference.
So really appreciate you beingon and and telling
folks your experiences.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining today.
(29:30):
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on social.
Visit www.CloutforGood.Com tosubscribe to our newsletter.
I hope this episode gives youinspiration and motivation to
use your Klout forgood to make a difference.
So once again, Amy,thanks so much for joining.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was such a pleasure.
I think you have tobe as authentic as is
comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experienceis individual, and what's right
for me is never goingto be right for someone else.
Even if you're in a place thatdoesn't feel wholly welcoming,
I'm sure there are people whowould would be more welcoming.
So I think find your people,seek them out, share as much as
(00:20):
you're comfortable sharing.
And if it's not the place thatyou feel like you can be your
whole self, is thatthe right place for you?
Hello everyone and welcome!Clout for Good is a bi weekly
podcast that showcases personaland powerful conversations with
prominent LGBTQ+ executives whoare out in the workplace.
(00:42):
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire LGBTQ+ people,their employers, and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcomeAmy Martin Zeigenfuss,
who's the Chief MarketingOfficer for
Carnival Cruise Lines.
At Carnival, Amy is focused onpositioning the brand for
(01:04):
the future, continuing toevolve the through line
experience and the marketingexperience to drive business
performance and brand love withcustomers of today and tomorrow.
Amy has a personal passion fortravel and a deep appreciation
for the travel industry.
Making it more accessible fortravelers is a top priority.
(01:25):
She's committed to developing aculture of inclusivity where
there's space for diversevoices and backgrounds.
She also sits on the board ofthe international Gay and
Lesbian Travel Association.
Amy and her wife, Joanna,split their time
between Washington, D.C. andRehoboth Beach, Delaware.
So, Amy, welcome to the show.
(01:47):
Thank you so much, David.
It's fantastic to be here.
And I love thatyou're doing this.
David.
It's it's such a great thingthat we need to talk more about.
I think in, in this space,especially when it comes
to work, as you andI were chatting about earlier.
So, um, you know, I, I figuredout that I was a lesbian,
identify as alesbian, um, in college.
(02:08):
And, um, that sort of changedmy worldview a bit, as it does
for many people when yousort of, you know, figure out
who you are.
Um, and, you know, I did thecoming out to family and
friends over time, um, and Iwas lucky that I didn't have
supernegative experiences there.
So, um, you know, someof the usual stuff where it's,
(02:31):
you know, a bit of a shock topeople and, you know, you do
feel like you're lettingpeople down,
which never feels great.
But in the end,I was pretty supported.
Um, and my first job, I workedat an agency, as you,
as you mentioned.
And I didn't feel comfortable,um, being out there, I think
because I was trying toprove myself, and I felt like
(02:51):
there was enough for me to do,um, just kind of trying to
figure out how to howto work for a living.
And, you know, um,even though agencies are pretty
inclusive as, as far as placesto work, it wasn't like I was
in a buttoned up corporateenvironment at the time, but I
just didn't feel Ididn't feel good about it.
So I there were a couple peoplewho knew they were gay, too.
(03:13):
Um, so I felt comfortablesharing with them, but I wasn't
out more broadly.
And it, it was uncomfortablebecause I made great
friends there, and Isort of was living this.
It felt likea double life, right?
I was not beingmy authentic self.
I felt like I waslying, um, because I would do
the avoidance, you know,and not use the pronouns and,
(03:33):
you know, all the things, um,that, you know, we in the
community know all about.
Um, and so eventuallyI thought, I can't
do this anymore.
I've gotta, I gotta change this.
And so I remember, um,talking to a girl friend
of mine, a straight girl friendof mine, and I just thought,
I'm gonna just tell her.
And so, um.
And I was worried because shehad grown up very in a very
(03:55):
religious household and from aconservative background, and I
just I just thought, I don'tknow how this is going to go.
And, um, she couldn't havebeen more supportive.
I mean, she was amazing when Ifinally told her, um, and we
joked about it and in the end,and we're still close friends
to this day.
So it was a really Iwas so glad when I did it.
I was able to, you know,then be out at work and
(04:17):
I thought, I'm nevergoing to do that again.
Now, whenever I start anew job, I pull it off like
a Band-Aid, tell everybodyabout my wife, Joanna,
so that, um, noone can can be confused.
Um, and that that hasthat has worked for me.
But I know it.
I know how hard it is becauseit's it's it's never, never,
never easy.
Especially when you're tryingto prove yourself.
(04:40):
Yeah.
And, you know, and I think oneof the, one of the studies
I've read, uh, McKinsey study,also says that LGBTQ people
often are finding themselvescoming out at work every week.
So they're also to your point,maybe you're ripping sort of
the initial Band-Aid off asyou're entering and letting
people know, but it's alsosomething that we continually
(05:02):
need to do.
Have you foundthat yourself as well?
And have there been timesmaybe also, you know,
because that can be, I think,for some exhausting, you know,
always, always finding ways tocome out, always having to tell
who you are.
Have you found yourself?
Have you?
You know, it sounds like maybein your first job, but along
the way, even after you've beenan out employee, have you found
(05:24):
yourself maybe notsharing as much?
And have there beenreasons why that's happened?
Are you?
Yeah, I think I think,you know, the one thing that
was interesting was thepandemic felt a bit like
a relief, I think, for alot of, of people from a
diverse backgrounds andminorities because, you know,
I heard from a lot of my, um,colleagues and girlfriends who
(05:45):
are black, um, who havetextured hair, that it was a
relief not to have to talkabout that all the time
in the office.
Um, and have people be like,oh, you changed your hair again.
And it just wasexhausting for them.
And I do think coming out overand over and over again because
people assume thatyou're straight, right?
People assume that, you know,you must be straight.
(06:05):
Um, you know, that is tiring.
And in fact, I wastaught this by a younger LGBTQ+
community member, you know, um,older gay guy and I who headed
the employee resource group atHilton were saying, well,
you know, is iteasier for you these days?
Kind of assuming that hewould say yes.
And, you know,because we're like, well,
(06:26):
you know, um, bad assumptionand and he said, you know,
same thing.
People stillassume he's straight.
And so he still feelslike he has to come out.
And even though it's a morewelcoming environment maybe,
than we were coming up insome respects, you know,
for him it was it's exhausting.
So I do think yeah,I think there are times,
especially when I'm at aconference or something, I just
(06:47):
sort of I don'twant to talk about it.
I change the subject.
I just don't feel likegoing there, you know?
Um, because it's tiring.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tiring.
And I think, you know, I alwayshave tried to say I'm willing
to give the effort.
I'm willing to do this becauseI want to change.
I want to create change.
I want people to be comfortableand and but it is exhausting.
(07:07):
And I also wonder, you know,one of the things, as I have
navigated my own career,I realized that going and
moving up the corporate ladder,that I got to
use my white privilege and mymale privilege often didn't
necessarily know that Iwas doing it.
But I found myself in thisposition of of understanding
(07:29):
and realizing that as I movedup and I wonder, you know,
with the intersectionality ofall of us and sort of the
complicated makeup of all of usidentifying as a lesbian and
navigating the workforce asa lesbian, you at least have
gender and sexuality andprobably other things.
(07:49):
Have you found or do you thinkthere's any unique challenges
or any unique things that havehappened identifying that with
that intersectionality?
I think, yeah, Ithink it's a great question.
I think, you know, oneof the things that I didn't
realize was, you know, the nameof your of your podcast and
your organization, that Ido have clout.
(08:10):
I never realized that.
I didn't realize to your pointthat I had the privilege that
comes from being awhite, uh, lesbian woman.
Um, and, you know, I,I always, you know,
thought about the things thatwere hard for me.
Um, but then I didn't realizethat I actually get, you know,
invited to more tablesin more rooms and more
conversations than others.
(08:32):
Um, particularly women of color,men of color, um,
and and people of our communitywho are of color, right?
Or transgendered in particular.
So, um, so I realized,you know, that it was it was
important for me to try tocreate space for those voices
and to try to, you know,make room at the table.
And and so I really tried tobecome more of a sponsor.
(08:54):
I think I was always I think itwas an ally, but I was more
of a, a silent ally, you know,you know, supportive but not
really doing much.
And I learned more aboutsponsorship and what that means.
And I that's been a reallypowerful journey for me because
it feels like, um,while I've definitely,
you know, faced my fairshare of things.
Right.
(09:15):
Um, I feel like turning that onits head and using it as a
force for good is reallyempowering and really feels,
um, you know, just feels likethe right thing to do.
And I get so much out of it.
I love it, I love it, yeah.
And I'm sure make a hugedifference because of it.
And you know,one other question is
maybe full of stereotypes.
(09:37):
Um, but it's you work in thetravel industry, and I think
there is an impression,at least amongst our
own queer community.
You know, there's the all ofthe all queer people
love to travel.
And there's also thisimpression that, you know,
maybe the travel industry ismore welcoming and
easier to navigate.
I had an experience when I wason the board of the Gay Lesbian
(09:58):
Straight Education Network,where I was going to meet with
the the school boardin San Francisco.
And I thought, well,this will be easy.
And we're in San Francisco,their school climate and
their environment, it's goingto be great.
And in fact, when I went in andand I actually uncovered we,
we had a benchmarking study andI found found really the
(10:19):
environment in San Francisco isnot too different than a school
district in Middle America.
And so I think, you know,there's this perception travel
industry is accepting it's.
Exciting.
It's diverse.
Is that the case, or are therestill challenges that you feel
the industry is trying tonavigate to really create an
equitable and inclusiveworkplace for all,
(10:40):
and especiallyits queer employees?
Yeah, I think, um, Ido think it's it's both things.
Um, so I would say that I dothink travel, um, attracts a
more diverse set ofpeople anyway, and especially
it seems like theLGBTQ+ community,
maybe we're more adventurous.
I don't know, um, uh, but itdoes seem to attract that.
(11:03):
So there is I've, I have alwaysfelt like there's a,
there's a, you know,bigger percentage of us
represented within it.
Um, and that has led usto be, I think, more at
the forefront,especially for employees,
but also for travelers.
You do have to be welcoming forall you you know, it's it's
it's not it's hospitality initself is non-discriminatory.
It's about opening yourdoors to everyone.
(11:23):
So that's definitely,I think, true.
I don't have the data toprove it, but um, but but the
thing I would say on the flipside is, you know, just like
most companies, um,in the world, the travel
industry is no different inthat it is mostly run
by white, straight men.
So, yeah, um, you know,while while our front lines and
(11:44):
our middle ranks are muchmore diverse, I think, um,
you know, unfortunately,we still have work to be done
at the top on boards, um,and in and in the
C-suite for sure.
And, Amy, you made me I'mchuckling a little bit.
You've made me remember theDamron Guide, our guide to how
do we navigate the travel spaceas a, as a queer member of the
(12:06):
queer community tofind gay friendly hotels?
So we don't have that awkwardcheck in experience and all
sorts of things.
So it's definitely,definitely come a long way.
But as you mentioned earlyon with, you know, in your
first job, you were reallyfocused on you.
Listen, I need to prove myself.
I want to buildmy career and establish myself.
(12:26):
I think that's such a placethat many people find
themselves in even afterthat first job.
You know, I think it may be oneof the impediments to trying to
be authentic is I really needto protect my career.
I want a promotion.
I want tobe, you know, respected, etc.
.
What you know, a lot of folksthat are listening are,
(12:49):
you know, wanting to hear aboutthese experiences and how folks
have navigated them.
What advice would you givesomeone who's maybe a little
newer to the workforce or maybeeven closeted in the workforce?
But thinking about I might wantto show up a little differently.
What?
What words of advice might yougive for folks to navigate that?
(13:09):
I think you have tobe as authentic as is
comfortable for you.
Everyone's story and experienceis individual, and what's right
for me is never goingto be right for someone else.
Um, so you definitely have tonavigate that in a way
that feels, you know,true to yourself.
Having said that, um, even ifyou're in a place that doesn't
feel wholly welcoming, I'm surethere are people who would
(13:31):
would be more welcoming.
So I think findyour people, seek them out.
Um, share as much asyou're comfortable sharing.
Um, and and if it's not theplace that you feel like you
can be your whole self, is thatthe right place for you?
Should you look elsewhere?
I know that's easiersaid than done.
So I'm not trying tooversimplify it, but I do think
finding a place that willwelcome you and welcome the
(13:52):
whole you, um, life is just tooshort to work anywhere else,
right?
So so try to find that.
Find the people whowill support you.
Find out if your organizationhas resources, because,
you know, a lot oforganizations these days do
have employee resource groups.
I've, I've led them, um,and been part of them.
And they are amazing.
You know, I, I getso much out of them.
(14:13):
I know that members do.
And they create a safe space.
Um, whether it's officialor unofficial,
there's usually a network.
We know how to find each other.
Um, so I would say seek thatout and that will be your
support whether you come outbig or small.
Um.
Find that, find your people.
I that's great advice.
And I think you're right.
There's that secret slackchannel in some
(14:34):
companies or otherwise.
But seeking and I think justcome a long way from maybe when
we were entering, entering theworkforce and there weren't
official quote unquote,channels and organizations to,
to be a part of.
And I think the employeeresource group is such
a great, great suggestion.
Um, you know, one of the thingsI'm interested in is you have
(14:55):
this really impressive career,all of these brands
that really, you know,have created things that all of
us have experienced, you know,experiencing travel and
experiencing new places and,and your involvement
with diversity, equity,inclusion at those companies.
And as you mentioned, I knowyou have been an executive
sponsor of of theemployee resource groups.
(15:17):
What do you think?
Um, are a few things you wouldshare about your experience
where you have used, as Icall it, your Klout for good,
like you referenced,where you've used your outlets
in a way that.
Created change or created apositive outcome for the
workplace or yourteam or employees.
What are some examples youcould share that you're proud
(15:39):
of over your career?
Yeah, I've been luckyenough to have a couple.
Um, for sure.
Probably more thanI'm not remembering.
But, um, you know,I've definitely been a sponsor
for things that, um,diverse employees are really,
um, passionate about and maybewouldn't have been able to get
visibility onto, um, otherwise.
(16:00):
For instance, um, wetalked a little earlier about
textured hair, um, when I wasin the hotel space.
Um, you know, something thathotels don't do a good job of
is providing hair care productsfor textured hair?
Um, so I had some, um,amazing black women on
my team, um, who were reallypassionate about running a test
to to offer thoseproducts on request.
(16:21):
Um, we lined up, they, they,in fact, lined up, um,
you know, a test partner.
And we sold it in, andI acted as the sponsor for it.
And I was so happy to dothat because, you know, it was
important to them.
It's important to thecustomer base, you know, and I
was really happy that, um,that I could help to get that
forward and to see itbe a success.
That was amazing.
(16:43):
Um, and then a little morespecifically to our community,
and I mentioned earlier beingpart of the employee resource
groups and, um, one of theyounger LGBTQ+ members asked,
um, myself and, and a colleagueof mine to host a panel, um,
where we would talk about our alittle bit like this panel,
(17:04):
actually, or thisconversation, a little
bit about about our our journeycoming up as gays, gay people
in the workplace.
And we sort of were like, sure,we're happy to do that, but how
is that reallygoing to be useful?
Because, you know, we justthought, well, we don't
really have much toshare on this.
And, you know, the experiencetoday is so different.
That whole thingabout the assumptions.
Right.
And sure, we're obviously set,you know, set, uh, uh,
(17:27):
set right on that.
But um, in the course ofthat conversation, we did
share a lot.
He askedsuch thoughtful questions.
And at the endwe opened it for questions.
And someone, um, an LGBTQ+person from the Middle East
asked a questionabout coming out.
He was on the cuspof coming out to his family.
Um, and he just hewanted to, you know, just get
(17:47):
ideas and approaches.
And so, you know,we tried to give support.
I mean, obviously we didn'thave the answers
but give support.
And then the outpouring fromthe employee resource group
members to himwas just incredible.
And he came back to us aweek later, and he had come out
to his family and it went well.
And that was an incrediblemoment where I just I
(18:08):
felt like, wow, if I had turnedthat down, if I'd said, I'm too
busy or it doesn't make sense,what would have happened in his
life?
I mean, he would havebeen fine, of course, but how
amazing that I could bepart of helping him with such
a moment.
That is amazing.
It's.
And I think that's thepower of, you know,
my experience withemployee resource groups.
One of the one of the reasons Iwanted to start Clout for
(18:31):
Good was, you know,your example of, you know,
sometimes I think folks who areout in the workplace, we, we,
we show up and say, yes,this is my partner or wife,
and here's what I do.
But I think sharing ourexperiences like we're
doing here, you know, the factof the matter is, less than a
percent of US public boardseats are occupied by members
(18:53):
of the queer community.
And so I thinkthere's definitely this.
I'm not sure if I see it.
I'm not sure that Iknow what the path could be.
So I think sharing thesestories is, is really,
really important for sure.
And, you know, one of thethings with your experience,
you know, both with theemployee resource groups and as
an executive, what are some,you know, many of the members
(19:16):
of the cloud for good communityand listeners, they want to
make a difference.
Maybe it's with their own, um,coming out journey or showing
up more authentically, but whatdo you think some of the things
are that you'd recommendcompanies consider?
What are some things that maybethey could be more mindful
of or, you know, maybe somethings you've tried and
they've worked, or what aresome suggestions that folks
(19:38):
could take back and say, hey,I might might be able to try to
do this in my own workplace.
Yeah.
And I think if it'sif it's less formal as well,
that's okay.
Right.
Like we talked about earlier,um, I do think creating those
safe spaces soempowering, um, you know,
LGBTQ+ executives to, to mentoror, or sponsor or,
(20:00):
you know, create coffee chatsor whatever it looks like it
doesn't have to be a formalemployee resource group.
I mean, that's greatif if that's something that
can be done.
Um, but, you know,just creating those safe spaces
for people to share stories orconnect or know that they're
not the only ones, um, I thinkis is really, really powerful.
I do think mentorship, um,and creating those kinds
(20:22):
of connections, you know,kind of if you've got new
people coming in the door and,and you have a hunch that you.
Help them.
Why not?
I mean, I do think Ido think it's powerful to hear
other people's stories.
And that's something thateveryone can do one on one,
right?
It doesn't have to be in abig forum, on a panel
or a podcast.
It can just be, you know, hey,this is my experience.
(20:44):
I know you're, you know,you're going to chart your
own course, but letme share mine.
And and that can oftenbe really powerful.
To your point, I alwaysthought, oh, no one
really wants to hear about,you know, all the things that
I've done and gone through.
You know, it's old,it's old history, but it's it's
actually really,really instructive for people.
It's not like they're going todo it the same way.
But so I do think those arereally important things.
(21:07):
And then, you know, connecting.
We have such great resourcesin our community.
I was thinking about, um,the LGBT Chamber of Commerce is
such a great resource.
Um, for instance, for smallercompanies or even individuals.
Um, so there's there's lots ofthings out there too.
It doesn't have tojust be something that
you create yourself.
Yeah, I love it.
And I one of the insights thatI have pulled from Employee
(21:30):
resource Group is periodicallywe would survey our ERGs and
find out, you know, how arethings going and what
do you need.
And and within the, you know,the LGBTQIA+ ERG inevitably
over the last several decadesworking in that space,
the thing that always bubblesto to the top is community.
(21:52):
And I think what you'rereferencing and being able to
have those connections and thatsupport and a safe space,
just like you said.
So I think there's thisimpression it's, you know,
the ERG is going to be fightingfor whatever is the hot topic
of the moment.
You know, having your pronounson the email signature,
having a gender neutral.
And in fact, they will.
But I think above that iscommunity and the power of
(22:16):
being able to make theconnection to one another.
And, you know, you can'tnecessarily always find
each other, as we've kindof talked about.
Well, um, well,you've talked about, um, the,
uh, LGBT Chamber of Commerce,any other as you've navigated
your career andyou've navigated, um, being a
part of this community,any other tools or resources or
(22:38):
books or any other things thatyou'd recommend to to folks
that are listening today thatmight help them in their career
journey or their, um,LGBTQ journey?
Yeah, it's agood question, I think.
Um, you know, I, Iam a member of HRC.
Um, that's been really helpfulto me over the years.
Great resources there.
(23:00):
You know, it has helped.
I have been involved withhelping my companies figure out
some of the things wewant to do for employees,
like health care,for domestic partners.
Back in the day when that wasthat was a new thing.
Um, and I went to them forresources on how to do that.
Um, so I definitely havefound them, them helpful
over the years.
Um, you know, on apersonal note, I really
(23:22):
whenever I need a bit of a liftand I'm feeling a bit like, oh,
this is hard work.
Um, you know, life in general.
Uh, I loveGlennon Doyle's podcast.
We Can Do Hard Things.
Um, it just always givesme a boost.
Um, you know, they're always soon point and so great at
humanizing things and puttingtheir finger on the button,
(23:43):
the things.
So I really I reallyenjoy that one.
Um, so those aresome of the things that,
that I found useful.
I love and maybe tell us alittle bit about, you know,
given your connection toyour industry, tell us a little
bit about um, IGL to and,and what they do and
what their, their purpose is.
I've heard about them overthe years, and to be honest,
I'm not sure I know exactlywhat they do and how they
(24:04):
serve the community.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, they'refantastic organization.
Um, so they are really amembership organization for
LGBTQ+ travel companies,small companies.
So think travel agencies, um,wholesalers, um, you know,
certainly convention visitorbureaus are members.
(24:28):
But a lot of, you know,people who are planning, um,
travel for tour operators,for the LGBTQ+ community,
making it safe, likewe were talking about earlier,
especially maybe in places thatare can be less welcoming.
Um, you know, but butlots of other things, too.
Gay cruises, um, you know,gay resorts, um, and all those
(24:48):
sorts of things.
So the so I glt itself isreally a resource and a
membership associationfor those companies.
Um, and we, you know,we help, um, you know,
with thought leadership, we,we host think tanks on kind of
how to helpmarkets and convention and
visitors bureaus, um,and cities be more welcoming,
(25:09):
um, to our community.
Um, and then we go all the waydown to, you know, helping with
resources for how theycan market themselves.
Our members canmarket themselves better.
Or, for instance, right now wehave a big focus on what can we
do to support businesses thatare in Florida and other states
that are, you know,undergoing some some really,
you know, hard times when itcomes to to our community and
(25:32):
safety and welcoming.
So, um, and we do surveysto understand, you know,
what's important to travelers,um, in our community.
And that obviously helps us tothen advise our members.
So it's really it'sa fantastic organization.
Um, really unique.
Um, it's international.
Um, every other year we hostour convention, um, outside the
borders of the US this year,next week, it's in Puerto Rico.
(25:54):
Next year it'll be in Japan.
Um, but we we really,you know, try to make sure
we're moving it around theworld to, to get as much
visibility as we can.
That's great.
That sounds that sounds amazing.
Well, one, Amy,one final question.
So, you know, I think listenerstoday will will leave and and
be inspired by someof these things you've done.
(26:15):
And we'll, we'll seek to learnmore about you and the
work you've done.
And, and one of the things thatI ask everyone is, you know,
who's inspired you alongthe way, who have been, um,
figures, queer icons or not.
But but you're hosting a Kloutfor good dinner party.
You're gonna you're gonnainvite 2 or 3 icons that
(26:38):
inspired you, um,through your journey.
Who are some of those folksthat you might invite and why?
Yeah, that's a great one.
Um, I love a dinner party.
Um, I was thinking about that,and I think I was thinking
about Oscar Wilde.
Um, because he was, you know,so incredibly daring for
the times, right, that helived in, um, and, you know,
(27:00):
wrote in an authentic way for,for those times and, and,
you know, got in trouble.
Um, and I think it wasimprisoned for a while as well.
So.
Wow, what an incredible guy.
He would have had to be at adinner party because he would
have stories to tell.
Um, and then my first twokind of, I think when I started
to realize, without knowing thename for it, that I was gay
(27:21):
was in, um, I was I thinkI was in middle school and, um,
and I got, Iasked for, for Christmas
the George Michael.
Well, the wham it waswham bam bam.
I love GeorgeMichael and Madonna.
True blue.
I'm dating myself.
But, um, those were the twoalbums I wanted, and I'm like,
oh, my, look at that.
Um, and I just adore bothof them, so I would love
(27:42):
to have them.
Um, there and bringGeorge back from the beyond.
Um, and then I'm going to geekmyself out a little bit here
and say, Eleanor of Aquitaine.
She is my historical icon.
She lived in the 12th century,um, between France
and England, and wasa badass woman.
Um, for those times, she wenton the Crusades with
(28:05):
her husband, the King of France.
At the time.
Women did not go oncrusade back then.
Um, but she did, um, and shewas Queen of France and Queen
of England and ruled in herhusbands and and sons dead,
and did it much better,frankly, than most of them.
So she was just aforce, um, at a time.
And she also, um,was responsible for, um,
(28:27):
sort of chivalry and the ideaof chivalry and, and so she
had this, you know, hard anddriving exterior, but she also
made time for the finerthings in life.
And I justthink she's incredible.
And I'd love to havedinner with her.
That is awesome.
I, I, I don't know anythingabout her, but she's a traveler.
She's a leader.
She's a hospitality pro.
I it's perfect.
(28:48):
It's perfect for Amy.
And I was asked nottoo long ago about your coming
on stage music.
And so I think you'llget a kick.
I immediately, without evenskipping a beat, I said it's
Freedom by George Michael.
I said immediately that love.
That's such a great song.
So I'd love to beat this dinner party for sure.
Those are all really,really great ones.
(29:09):
Well, Amy.
Yeah, well, Amy, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Thanks for beingopen and honest.
And as you know, you learnthrough some of those
experiences while at work.
Sharing these stories domake a difference.
So really appreciate you beingon and and telling
folks your experiences.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining today.
(29:30):
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on social.
Visit www.CloutforGood.Com tosubscribe to our newsletter.
I hope this episode gives youinspiration and motivation to
use your Klout forgood to make a difference.
So once again, Amy,thanks so much for joining.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was such a pleasure.
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