Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The opening for the VP of Salescame up and I wasn't actually
particularly interested in it,but I was having a conversation
with the CEO of the company oneday and he thought we were
having a good conversation.
When he said to me, You know,Terry, you would be great for
that job, but I could never putyou in that role because the
(00:23):
sales team wouldn't respect youbecause you're so open about
your sexual orientation.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Klout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
(00:46):
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored towelcome Terry Macko.
Terry is Senior vice presidentfor marketing and
communications at theWorld Wildlife Fund.
His responsibilities includemanaging the base of more than
1 million WWF members and over8 million activists in
(01:10):
the United States.
Terry oversees the creativeexpression and messaging for
WWF across allmedia and advertising channels,
ensuring WWF remains theworld's most recognized and
loved conservation brands.
Prior to joining WWF,Terry served in a variety of
senior level marketing roles atColumbia House, VeriSign and
(01:34):
where we metat MCI Telecommunications.
Throughout his career,he's been recognized by
Advertising Age as atop marketing leader.
Terry, welcome to the show.
Hi, David.
Nice to be here.
Yeah, it's great to have you.
So let's jump right in.
I'm going to askyou right off the bat.
Um, let's just start bytelling us, if you can,
(01:57):
a little bit about how youidentify when you came out and
a little bit of those maybeexperiences and insights and
things maybe you learned alongthe way through that,
through that period?
I have been working in thecorporate world for over
35 years, and I have been anout gay male that entire time.
(02:24):
And so, you know, you dothe math, and that was since
the late 80s.
And I was thinkingabout this and.
And I really have always beenout since I was in college and
(02:45):
a bit even in high school witha select few people.
But in the workplace, I've beenout my entire career.
But.
You know, being out at workmeans that you're you're always
coming out because people don'tnecessarily know that you're
(03:05):
gay unless they've had thatopportunity to get to know you
in one way or another.
And so there was never really adefining moment for me of when
I came out.
It's always has been and isstill a process of letting
people know who youare and what you're about.
(03:27):
Well, and Terry, it's I knowthat I've read a study McKinsey
put out a study that basicallystates what you had said and
reinforce is that it says thatqueer employees often come out
in the workplace once a week.
So I think it's it's such aninteresting thing, you know,
for those of us that have Ialso have been out since
(03:49):
my first job.
And you know, I think that itcan sometimes be this may be
too dramatic of a word, but itcan sometimes be exhausting.
You know, you just sortof want to be yourself.
Maybe maybe it's something thatyou don't want to talk about or
maybe the situation isn'tthe right situation.
Um, I'm curious.
Through all those years of ofyour professional experience
(04:13):
with a lot of really top tierwell-recognized brands,
have you ever found yourselfand maybe again, maybe this is
too harsh of a word, but haveyou ever found yourself hiding
your identity or maybe beingless open about it?
And if so, maybe.
What were some of the reasonswhy that happened and why you
chose not to share more?
(04:37):
You know, I wouldn't saythat I can think of examples
necessarily of when I'veintentionally hidden my
identity more so I think ofexamples when I've had to be
very sort of proactive aboutasserting my identity.
(04:58):
So I think of an example when Iwas very early in my career and
I was out to lunch with threeother people and we were all in
our mid-twenties and a serverhad come by and I think was
just very rushed.
And a woman who was sittingnext to me said, Oh,
(05:19):
that waiter must be gay.
And I looked ather and I said, Why?
Why is that?
And she said, Well,all gay men hate women.
And I just looked ather and I said, Well, Kathy,
I don't hate you.
And there was dead silence atthe table and a little awkward.
And then we went onwith our lunch.
(05:40):
And later that afternoon, a fewhours later, my colleague came
to me and he said,I can't believe you said that
to Kathy.
She she came up to meafterwards and said, Did I say
something to offend Terry?
And he said, Well, Kathy,I think he might be gay.
And she's like, Oh, I neverthought of it, but like it,
(06:03):
you know, that that situationis still sort of burned in my
mind because someone felt sortof very comfortable about
saying something that was sortof disparaging, kind of odd.
And, you know, I think thatsituation 30 years later would
be less common.
(06:24):
But still, I was actuallysurprised at the time.
And I can think of othersituations and again, sort of
more earlier in my career,but I've talked to even people
in the past few yearsabout this, of the ways in
which gay people almost have tocome out to people.
And as simple of a situation ofyour at work on a Monday and
(06:50):
people say, well,how was your weekend?
What did you do?
And you have to think for asecond like, Oh, oh, what do I
tell them what Ireally did this weekend?
So for me, at a time I wascommuting between Pittsburgh
and DC every other weekend tosee my boyfriend at the time.
And I, you know, there was atime when I just just so there
(07:13):
were times where I didn'tnecessarily go into the details.
Right.
So to your question, like,is that hiding?
It was like, well, maybe I justdon't really feel like telling
you all the details.
But I remember there was onetime someone asked me that and
I was a little hesitant, and Isaid to him, Oh, I was going to
the airport with my colleague,and he asked me how my
(07:34):
weekend was, and I said, Oh,I traveled to Pittsburgh to
see my boyfriend.
We're in a longdistance relationship, and I
could tell he got a littlejarred and then just continued
to talk and answer anotherquestion or for me.
And then we moved on.
Well, a few days later he cameup to me and said, Hey,
I really wanted to talk to you.
(07:54):
I wanted you to know how much Iappreciated how open you were
about telling me whatyou did over the weekend.
He said, I've really beenwrestling with my own sexuality.
And he had been and I knew thathe had been dating a woman
because this was someone Iwould drop off at his
girlfriend's house sometimesafter work, and he opened up
(08:16):
about his own identity in thestruggles he was in and and
then came out and was gay.
And we ended upbeing friends for many years.
I love it.
Well, and and to actually twofollow up questions to to to
that one you know, as you talkabout your example over lunch
(08:38):
and then this second example,one thing I'm curious about is
have you seenthe workplace change?
So maybe that incidentat the restaurant versus versus
one today, I know you're you'reactively engaged in in DNI
efforts and employee resourceefforts at WWF and otherwise.
(08:59):
But have youseen the workplace change?
Have things gotten isit even safe to say?
Have things gotten easier?
Are they the same?
What would your assessment ofhow the workplace is moving
along be?
Well, I dothink that the workplace
is dramatically different.
And so even though and Irecognize that, you know,
(09:21):
I talk about having been openfor over 35 years, you know,
at work,I've been very privileged to be
in work environments that werefilled with open minded people.
And in East Coast cities wherethis was sort of very common
(09:42):
and in very large companiesthat are I think the larger the
company is, the obviously thegreater diversity there is in
the sort of more advanced theyare in in their
policies and practices.
But I would saytwo things come to mind.
(10:03):
So, yes, I am very involved atWorld Wildlife Fund in
our diversity,equity and inclusion programs.
I'm the executive sponsor forour LGBTQ Plus Employee
resource group, which is calledWe're Here, and it's a great
resource for anyone whoidentifies within that umbrella
(10:24):
and is a group that advancesissues that are important to
its members as well as providesa supportive community
and social spaces.
And and that just didn't existearly on in my career.
You kind of sought each otherout and you knew, you know,
through time you figuredout who, who, who was gay,
(10:45):
who wasn't.
But it was all sortof very informal.
And so having these moreformalized structures in place
and recognition, I think givesso many people what I like to
think of as a more even playingfield that you can be your
authentic self when you come towork and you know that there's
(11:07):
a community that supports youand surrounds you.
And it's not justthat community, but it's the
entire organization because theentire organization is
supporting theseemployee resource groups.
I also think that we've come along way in terms of making
sure there is that equalplaying field so that
(11:27):
that the justbenefits like health care
are equally provided.
I remember back in the late 90sthinking what a wonderful
environment I worked in at MCIbecause it was very easy to be
open and out in thatin that workplace.
(11:51):
But at the time MCI did nothave health care benefits for
domestic spouses and AT&Tand Sprint did.
And I remember thinking, how dohow is this possible?
How can this be?
And I remember thinking likewanting to sort of lead an
effort on that.
(12:12):
And if I have a regret,it is that I didn't do that.
And so, you know, I thought,oh, someone else will,
you know, that's goingto change eventually.
And eventually more thingschanged in terms of the company
being absorbed by by Verizon.
But it you know I think aboutthat and was that like hiding
(12:37):
or that wasn't I wasn't hidingwho I was, but I
was holding back.
And I think that in theworkplace today, a lot less
people are holding back onwhere they see a situation that
isn't completely fair.
Well, and I love it.
I think your and your employeeresource group example of,
(12:58):
you know, not having thosetypes of resources, you know,
to your MCI example, you'd kindof have to go on your own.
You'd have to figure outwho would, who would I go to.
And if you were ina position of power, that could
be easier.
But I think, you know, one ofthe things is you told your
story about telling yourcolleague on the way
(13:18):
to the airport.
It also reminded me of is oneof the reasons that I started
Klout for Good is like you werementioning with, you know,
these conversationsand being open.
So many folks come up tome after, whether it's an
internal town hall meeting withthe whole company or maybe
(13:39):
speaking at an advertisingor marketing event.
And you still find youngeremployees saying, you know,
do you talk aboutyour weekend like your example?
And I think for me, again,sort of being one of the
reasons of starting Kloutfor good, it just really
strikes me as I agreewith you, that so much progress
(13:59):
has been made.
But I then go, wait a minute,I came out 25 years ago and
we're stillasking that question.
Is it okay totalk about yourself on Monday?
So think conversations likethis and sharing this
because we also.
I know a lot of folks thatidentify as a part of the queer
community aren't out and aren'ttalking about it.
And so my next questionwould be, and with your great
(14:21):
experience in working with theemployee resource group
and otherwise, you know,what advice?
You know, I think it's youmentioned privilege, and I
definitely have over the courseof my career understood I get
to sit behind, you know,white male privilege
when it's convenient.
And I think, you know,understanding what that is and
(14:43):
how to navigate that.
But I think that, you know,folks, when they think about
being more authentic, when theythink about coming out,
they may not feel safe.
They may, you know, be saying,hey, I want to make sure I
don't get overlookedfor that promotion.
You know what what advice mightyou give to folks that
are thinking, I'd like to comeout or I'd like to be more
(15:04):
authentic or show up moreauthentically or maybe even
that employee who's beencloseted at work and is
now saying, hey,there's resources,
maybe this is time.
What advice might you givefolks that are sort of
contemplating showing updifferently?
Well.
(15:25):
You know, my first piece ofadvice would be that
in any profession.
You know, make sure you'rechoosing the profession you
want to be in that you'repassionate about, that you get
excited about and be the bestthat you can be at it.
And that doesn't matter whoyou are, it doesn't matter what
(15:48):
your difference is.
And so I think that, you know,if you really are trying or if
you're truly pursuingyour passion, you will succeed.
Now, I do think that it'simportant to be your authentic
self in your workplace,because if you're hiding who
(16:08):
you are, you won't beas good as you can be.
No one can be theirbest if they're living in a
bubble of fear.
And so it's important to have aworkplace that is supportive.
And so I do think as you makedecisions around where you're
(16:30):
going to accept a job,I think, you know, you want to
make sure that it's a placethat you feel like you
can be yourself.
And so that's just something,you know, you have to navigate.
And, you know, there areyou know, unfortunately,
there still are real reasonsfor people to be afraid.
(16:51):
Not everybody has a workplacewhere they can feel supported.
Again, to your point earlier,I mean, we're what we
were discussing,it has changed dramatically.
But I'll give you one examplefrom it was a job I was in
again 30 years ago.
I pursued a role with a smallstartup firm for a year while
(17:18):
I'd taken a break from MCI.
And in that that role,this small startup
telecom company, I was leadingtheir product marketing and the
opening for the VP of salescame up and I wasn't actually
particularly interested in it,but I was having a conversation
with the CEO of the company oneday and he and I was very open
(17:43):
with him and he thought we werehaving like a good conversation
when he said to me, You know,Terry, you would be great for
that job, but I could never putyou in that role because the
sales team wouldn't respect youbecause you're so open about
your sexual orientation.
And I thought, Oh, okay.
(18:07):
I really was so dumbfoundedat the time.
I didn't know what todo about it.
The reality was I was actuallycontemplating my move out of
that company at the same timeas well, because I didn't think
it was going to succeed.
So I kind of just let it go.
But again, it's one of thosethings that sticks in your mind.
And I thought, you know, no oneshould ever feel that way,
(18:28):
right?
No one should ever bein that situation.
And unfortunately, we we dohave a lot of laws on the books
now for anti discriminationbased on sexual orientation,
based on where you arein the country.
But it's why there reallyshould be a National Employment
Non-Discrimination Act.
No one should have to sort oflive with that as a reason why
(18:52):
someone wouldn't get promoted.
So so I understand why there isa fear among some Lgbtq+ people
of being open and beingthemselves that perhaps perhaps
they won't get something thatthey would have otherwise if
people thoughtthey were straight.
Right.
But I think what you give up bynot being out is so much worse
(19:18):
in so much more of a handicap.
I think that for me, you know,despite that one example I
cited being my true self,being open, being out has been
a benefit for me.
I think it has allowed peopleto see me for who I am.
It's created a sense of trustbecause people know where I'm
(19:41):
coming from and it's helped meto build more real
relationships with people, and Idon't think it's sort of
ever hindered the career paththat I have been on.
Well, and, you know, I thinkit's just your story.
Thank you for sharing of,you know, being looked over
(20:03):
for a position.
I think those sit with peopleas that doesn't really happen.
That's not really true.
And I think, you know,thank you for sharing that
because it's proof that it does.
I'm positive it'shappening today, maybe in a
more subtle way, but itis still happening.
So it is really important.
Think like you were your advicearound folks thinking about
(20:26):
showing up more authentically?
I think the other thingI know we've both been involved
with this organization.
Personally and through.
Through friends of ours.
But the Human Rights Campaigntoday now has a tool called the
Corporate Equality Index.
Not every company is a partof it, but but every company is
encouraged to be a part of it.
And as we were talking aboutwith health care benefits or
(20:48):
whatever that might be, it doesgive you a really great guide
as you're thinking of companiesand thinking about
considering companies,how they, you know,
quote unquote score as part ofthe corporate equality index.
And it talks about what type ofenvironment and what type of
sort ofequitable opportunities exist.
So those are someother tools that people can
can certainly use.
(21:09):
And, you know, one of thethings I'd be interested in,
you talked about the exampleand the benefits and maybe not
capitalizing orstepping forward, but I am
positive because I watch,you know, the things that you
do with the companies you'veworked for and with
with WWF specifically.
(21:31):
You know, you havebeen authentically out.
You have been yourself.
And you said it's certainlybeen a benefit for
trust and relationships.
Where do you think, you know,to share an example?
Because I think sometimespeople are not sure what their
boundaries are or what they cando or how could they make a
difference where, you know,on this podcast, I'll call it
(21:52):
your Klout for good,but really it's, you know,
being out, how has being out,how have you use that out or
maybe taken an action that hasbenefited your organizations or
benefited the employees of yourorganizations or partners that
you work with?
Can you give us an examplewhere using your clout has made
(22:13):
an impact?
Sure one recent onesprings to mind.
We have a practice at WWF whereeach Friday a different member
of our senior management teamtakes their turn at writing a
note for the entire staff.
(22:34):
And it can be a reflection onanything that is important to
you at the time.
It could be something that'shappening in the news.
It could be a recentwin or result.
It really it's it's your spaceto use as you wish.
And so I it's my turn everycouple of months and I was
(23:03):
thinking that this past Junethat I really wanted to write
something for Pride month butbut it wasn't my turn in June.
My turn didn't comeup until August.
And so I reached out to someoneelse who had the turn in June
and was able to switch places.
And I just decided, I don'tknow, it was I was
(23:26):
talking with the members of ouremployee resource group and we
were going through theprogramming that we were doing
for for Pride.
And someone had asked me like,Well, could you see if,
you know, one of the Fridaynotes could mention that
it's Pride month.
And, and that's what spurred meinto action of thinking,
(23:46):
I'll do better than that.
I'm going to take over theentire note and write it about
pride and and and I reallywasn't sure what I
wanted to write.
And I thought about it andI thought, well, why pride?
Why is it why is pride sounique to our community when
it's not?
Every group can embrace pride.
Every individual should embracetheir own sense of pride.
(24:08):
But it's really because I thinkthat Lgbtq+ people have
embraced pride because it isthe opposite of shame.
Right?
And shame is this horribleemotion that we're sort of
taught as children to hidewho we are.
Other differences aren't soeasily hidden, and so they're
(24:28):
not as as relevant or as sortof deeply embedded in identity
as as much as I think it is forgay children who are taught to
hide who they are.
And, you know, the whole comingout process is that shedding of
of that guilt,that rejection, that pain.
(24:51):
And so coming out is soimportant as a celebration of
who you are.
And so I centered my note onthat and I got a
little nervous, but I thought,no, this is this is good.
Like, yes, I'm not I don't hideat work, but I don't
necessarily reveal everythingabout myself to 100% of the
(25:12):
workforce in a singlemoment in time.
And so I did that and I wrotethe note and I revealed some
things that I hadn't it'sinteresting I hadn't even told
my family about.
I had I had revealed thatdiscrimination situation that
I mentioned earlier.
I had talked about there weretimes I've been physically
(25:32):
assaulted for being gay.
And, you know, those are justthings that are deeply personal
and but I think important forpeople to know because it's as
I had said in my note,you know, Pride Month is is not
all about rainbows and dragqueens and sparkles and parades
(25:56):
down the street.
Right.
It's pride is a place that wecome to after years of struggle
with our identity andcontinuing to sort of reinforce
that sense of pridein oneself, even though it can
be batted down, you know,time and time again in,
(26:16):
in differentand unexpected ways.
And so I, I got over 100 emailresponses back from people who
were just so happy that I wentthere and that I sort of opened
up that door and I didn't Iguess I didn't expect that.
(26:37):
I didn't really I didn't reallyknow what to expect, but it
showed me that it is soimportant to create a workplace
and an environment wherepeople feel safe.
They feel that theycan be themselves.
And if you do that,they'll absolutely do
their best work.
(26:57):
And so, you know, isn't thatwhat we all want?
Like we all wantto succeed within whatever
organization we're in.
You know, WWF were fightingagainst climate change and the
loss of biodiversity and natureon the planet, and those aren't
easy things to overcome.
That takes the entire worldto come together.
(27:18):
And if we want our employeesdoing their best work,
they need to know they're in anenvironment that will support
them and support who they are,and they can be their true
selves and they can beall that they can be.
That's awesome.
So the callout for GoodCommunity includes queer people
(27:39):
and their allies who lots ofthe listeners are here to,
to get some tricks andtips on how maybe they can
improve their workplace.
So with your experience withERGs and lots of
different companies, what advicemight you give the
listeners who wantto make a difference?
What are some things that theymight be able to do, or what
are some changes you'd like tosee that might they might
(28:01):
pursue in the workplace?
Sure.
I thinkI think it's important to
take a chance.
When we were going through ourown programming for Pride Month
as part of our ERG,we were talking about different
(28:22):
programs that we could have andwe had we did a talk with an
author who wrote the bookcalled Queer Ducks,
which is all aboutsexual orientation and sexual
diversity withinthe animal kingdom.
And it's a fascinating read.
(28:47):
And and what youfind is that there are
there's an incredible amount ofdiversity when it comes to
the animal kingdom.
Andthe lesson is really that there
really is no such thing asbeing odd or being different,
(29:12):
that this kind of diversity ofsexual orientation and same sex
behavior exists in all animalsand across all species.
And so this idea of of beingdifferent is, I just think a
(29:35):
fascinating one of that beingdifferent is actually the
most normal thing.
It's actually not queer at all.
And so and so it was a, it wasa bit of a bent on in terms of
the kind of author you mightexpect us to bring in.
But it produced a really richconversation and everybody
(30:00):
really loved it.
And so I think that,you know, taking those kinds of
risks are important.
I would say that the otherthing is that if you're looking
to bring about change,be specific.
What's the changethat you are seeking?
And because I have found thatsometimes people can just have
(30:22):
a general sense of frustrationand with their workplace,
but not necessarily knowexactly what they need
to be different.
And so one thing that we'vedone at in our own workplace,
in our building is to createmore gender neutral bathrooms.
(30:43):
That was veryimportant to people.
The architecture didn'tnecessarily support it,
but there was a way and it tooka bit of time and it was an
important resource to have bothfor our employees as well
as our visitors.
And so it was something veryspecific that we could do that
mattered to a greatdeal a number of people.
(31:04):
So I do think that whenyou're looking, as we
talked about, there are so manychanges that have advanced in
the workplace that in somecases I think some people
wonder like what more what moreis there to do?
And I think if you can getreally specific about what
changes you want to see,then your leadership,
(31:27):
your management can act onthose because you're bringing
real issues to thetable that can be addressed.
Love it.
I think that's great.
My experience in working withinthe DNI teams at my company is
very much the samethought as you.
You know, it's it's easyto be frustrated.
It's easy to say thesethings aren't working.
(31:48):
And I think it's surprisingthat when you do have
suggestions that are specific,that action can be taken.
And hopefully, you know,companies will support that as
you bring those forward.
So two morequestions for you, Terry.
One is, um, you know, have youalong the way utilized you just
(32:08):
mentioned this book that I'lldefinitely include in
the show notes.
Um, but do you haveany tools or.
Resources, books ororganizations or, you know,
whatever maybe you thinkcould be helpful.
One of the other things I'veI've noticed with listeners is
they really want to draw onthese resources and tools to to
educate themselves or to beable to take action.
(32:30):
Any resources you would sharewith listeners that you have
found effectivethrough your experience.
Um, you know,it's interesting, David.
I was going to mention the HRCCorporate Equality Index.
Oh, yeah.
Okay, good.
Because I've been payingattention to it for decades and
have actually recently engagedin some discussions with folks
(32:52):
there about how they canbroaden it to include a wide
range of non-profits who havenot been a part
of that research.
It's been more focusedon the for profit community.
So I do think to the extentthat resources like that can be
broader for moreorganizations and, you know,
(33:15):
across many spectrums, you know,they all take a lot
of resources to makethose things happen.
And so they've been focused onon the biggest ones for sure.
But, you know, Out inEagle is another really great
organization that we haveparticipated in where they have
an annual conference that isreally inspiring for people who
(33:39):
are able to be a part of it andto know more about how they can
be leaders withintheir own organizations.
And then, you know, there's somany organizations that I think
that you can look atthat if they suit your needs,
like Glad, Right, which isfocused on the representation
of gays in the media, which Ithink has been such an
(34:03):
important issue to address overthe decades, to change the
perception of how Lgbtq+people are represented.
Smile for younger individuals,flag for parents, you know,
which may not necessarily bespecifically focused on
workplace issues,but your whole identity.
(34:24):
And it's important to focus onyour whole identity to be your
best professional self,as we've talked about.
So I think resourcesare out there like that.
That's awesome.
And I didn't know CorporateEquality Index didn't have a
sort of nonprofit sort of focusor that they had opportunity.
That's really that's reallygood to know.
So last question, Terry.
(34:46):
When I think after folks listento this episode and you saw
proof when you wrote yourJune email, you inspire
people for sure.
And I'm positive you've createdaction that you're not
even aware of.
But, you know, one thing I askeveryone to kind of end the
hour conversation is,you know, who's inspired Terry
(35:10):
along the way.
So if you're, you know,imagine and I know you love to
host a good dinner party.
So imagine if you're hosting adinner party for Klout
for good, what, 2 or3 queer icons.
And they don't have to be icons.
They just can be someone who'sbeen influential to you,
who were a few of those folksthat you would invite that have
(35:31):
inspired you along the way.
So thinking about the dinnerparty and wanting a mix of
people for fascinating andinteresting conversation,
you know, if we could bringhim back, it would be amazing
to have HarveyMilk there, right?
(35:51):
I mean, he wasthe first elected.
Out.
Gay official in the state ofCalifornia and literally died
for the cause.
I mean, he was assassinated andbut such a pioneer.
And I think it would be sogreat to be able to talk with
(36:11):
him about what that fight waslike and what it was like
coming out in the 60sand early 70s.
I think it would begreat to have Lily Tomlin.
Um, she is because you needsomeone who's really funny and
I think she's hysterical and,and you know, she's in her 80s
(36:34):
now and as vibrant as ever andshe's one person who I can
remember her myselfon Laugh-In, and I've watched
her on Grace and Frankie.
So I, I feel like she has beenwith me my entire life since as
(36:55):
a laughing at her comedy as achild through today and then.
I would add Gus Kenworthy.
Because you need someone,you know, you need young voices.
You need people who are,you know, as we talked about
before or just, you know,who really focused on their
(37:17):
profession and exceeding inbeing the best that they can be.
And he is an amazing Olympianand he so embraces
his queer identity.
And he is just he iswho he is and he doesn't hide
it from anyone.
And I think that having thatkind of diversity of of age
(37:38):
and experience would be prettyfascinating conversation.
I love it.
And I just saw on Instagramover the weekend he bought
his mama house.
I saw that.
Yes.
So he's a good son.
And and also in my living roomhave a one of the original
(38:00):
campaign posters of Harvey Milk.
He's one of my definitelysomeone would invite to
the table too.
So that's that's awesome.
I love it.
I want to be invited for sure.
Well, Terry, thank you so muchfor your time today.
I you know, as I alludedto folks, as we started, I was
on Terry's team asone of my first jobs.
(38:23):
And I can attest to and nowknowing him all these years
later is trulya thoughtful, authentic leader.
And I really, really value youropinion and what you do.
So thank you so muchfor for joining me today.
Well, David, thank youfor asking me.
It's been a pleasureto have this kind of
(38:44):
conversation with you.
And I love seeing the work thatyou're doing and the kind of
leadership across the LGBTQspectrum that you are advancing.
So thank you.
Yeah, Thank you, Terry.
And to my listeners, thank youso much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode
(39:04):
of Klout for Good.
Follow us on Social,Visit Klout for good.
To subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope that this episode givesyou the motivation to use your
Klout for good to make adifference in the workplace.
Thanks for joining.
The opening for the VP of Salescame up and I wasn't actually
particularly interested in it,but I was having a conversation
with the CEO of the company oneday and he thought we were
having a good conversation.
When he said to me, You know,Terry, you would be great for
that job, but I could never putyou in that role because the
(00:23):
sales team wouldn't respect youbecause you're so open about
your sexual orientation.
Hello everyone, and welcome.
Klout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
(00:46):
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
Today, I'm honored towelcome Terry Macko.
Terry is Senior vice presidentfor marketing and
communications at theWorld Wildlife Fund.
His responsibilities includemanaging the base of more than
1 million WWF members and over8 million activists in
(01:10):
the United States.
Terry oversees the creativeexpression and messaging for
WWF across allmedia and advertising channels,
ensuring WWF remains theworld's most recognized and
loved conservation brands.
Prior to joining WWF,Terry served in a variety of
senior level marketing roles atColumbia House, VeriSign and
(01:34):
where we metat MCI Telecommunications.
Throughout his career,he's been recognized by
Advertising Age as atop marketing leader.
Terry, welcome to the show.
Hi, David.
Nice to be here.
Yeah, it's great to have you.
So let's jump right in.
I'm going to askyou right off the bat.
Um, let's just start bytelling us, if you can,
(01:57):
a little bit about how youidentify when you came out and
a little bit of those maybeexperiences and insights and
things maybe you learned alongthe way through that,
through that period?
I have been working in thecorporate world for over
35 years, and I have been anout gay male that entire time.
(02:24):
And so, you know, you dothe math, and that was since
the late 80s.
And I was thinkingabout this and.
And I really have always beenout since I was in college and
(02:45):
a bit even in high school witha select few people.
But in the workplace, I've beenout my entire career.
But.
You know, being out at workmeans that you're you're always
coming out because people don'tnecessarily know that you're
(03:05):
gay unless they've had thatopportunity to get to know you
in one way or another.
And so there was never really adefining moment for me of when
I came out.
It's always has been and isstill a process of letting
people know who youare and what you're about.
(03:27):
Well, and Terry, it's I knowthat I've read a study McKinsey
put out a study that basicallystates what you had said and
reinforce is that it says thatqueer employees often come out
in the workplace once a week.
So I think it's it's such aninteresting thing, you know,
for those of us that have Ialso have been out since
(03:49):
my first job.
And you know, I think that itcan sometimes be this may be
too dramatic of a word, but itcan sometimes be exhausting.
You know, you just sortof want to be yourself.
Maybe maybe it's something thatyou don't want to talk about or
maybe the situation isn'tthe right situation.
Um, I'm curious.
Through all those years of ofyour professional experience
(04:13):
with a lot of really top tierwell-recognized brands,
have you ever found yourselfand maybe again, maybe this is
too harsh of a word, but haveyou ever found yourself hiding
your identity or maybe beingless open about it?
And if so, maybe.
What were some of the reasonswhy that happened and why you
chose not to share more?
(04:37):
You know, I wouldn't saythat I can think of examples
necessarily of when I'veintentionally hidden my
identity more so I think ofexamples when I've had to be
very sort of proactive aboutasserting my identity.
(04:58):
So I think of an example when Iwas very early in my career and
I was out to lunch with threeother people and we were all in
our mid-twenties and a serverhad come by and I think was
just very rushed.
And a woman who was sittingnext to me said, Oh,
(05:19):
that waiter must be gay.
And I looked ather and I said, Why?
Why is that?
And she said, Well,all gay men hate women.
And I just looked ather and I said, Well, Kathy,
I don't hate you.
And there was dead silence atthe table and a little awkward.
And then we went onwith our lunch.
(05:40):
And later that afternoon, a fewhours later, my colleague came
to me and he said,I can't believe you said that
to Kathy.
She she came up to meafterwards and said, Did I say
something to offend Terry?
And he said, Well, Kathy,I think he might be gay.
And she's like, Oh, I neverthought of it, but like it,
(06:03):
you know, that that situationis still sort of burned in my
mind because someone felt sortof very comfortable about
saying something that was sortof disparaging, kind of odd.
And, you know, I think thatsituation 30 years later would
be less common.
(06:24):
But still, I was actuallysurprised at the time.
And I can think of othersituations and again, sort of
more earlier in my career,but I've talked to even people
in the past few yearsabout this, of the ways in
which gay people almost have tocome out to people.
And as simple of a situation ofyour at work on a Monday and
(06:50):
people say, well,how was your weekend?
What did you do?
And you have to think for asecond like, Oh, oh, what do I
tell them what Ireally did this weekend?
So for me, at a time I wascommuting between Pittsburgh
and DC every other weekend tosee my boyfriend at the time.
And I, you know, there was atime when I just just so there
(07:13):
were times where I didn'tnecessarily go into the details.
Right.
So to your question, like,is that hiding?
It was like, well, maybe I justdon't really feel like telling
you all the details.
But I remember there was onetime someone asked me that and
I was a little hesitant, and Isaid to him, Oh, I was going to
the airport with my colleague,and he asked me how my
(07:34):
weekend was, and I said, Oh,I traveled to Pittsburgh to
see my boyfriend.
We're in a longdistance relationship, and I
could tell he got a littlejarred and then just continued
to talk and answer anotherquestion or for me.
And then we moved on.
Well, a few days later he cameup to me and said, Hey,
I really wanted to talk to you.
(07:54):
I wanted you to know how much Iappreciated how open you were
about telling me whatyou did over the weekend.
He said, I've really beenwrestling with my own sexuality.
And he had been and I knew thathe had been dating a woman
because this was someone Iwould drop off at his
girlfriend's house sometimesafter work, and he opened up
(08:16):
about his own identity in thestruggles he was in and and
then came out and was gay.
And we ended upbeing friends for many years.
I love it.
Well, and and to actually twofollow up questions to to to
that one you know, as you talkabout your example over lunch
(08:38):
and then this second example,one thing I'm curious about is
have you seenthe workplace change?
So maybe that incidentat the restaurant versus versus
one today, I know you're you'reactively engaged in in DNI
efforts and employee resourceefforts at WWF and otherwise.
(08:59):
But have youseen the workplace change?
Have things gotten isit even safe to say?
Have things gotten easier?
Are they the same?
What would your assessment ofhow the workplace is moving
along be?
Well, I dothink that the workplace
is dramatically different.
And so even though and Irecognize that, you know,
(09:21):
I talk about having been openfor over 35 years, you know,
at work,I've been very privileged to be
in work environments that werefilled with open minded people.
And in East Coast cities wherethis was sort of very common
(09:42):
and in very large companiesthat are I think the larger the
company is, the obviously thegreater diversity there is in
the sort of more advanced theyare in in their
policies and practices.
But I would saytwo things come to mind.
(10:03):
So, yes, I am very involved atWorld Wildlife Fund in
our diversity,equity and inclusion programs.
I'm the executive sponsor forour LGBTQ Plus Employee
resource group, which is calledWe're Here, and it's a great
resource for anyone whoidentifies within that umbrella
(10:24):
and is a group that advancesissues that are important to
its members as well as providesa supportive community
and social spaces.
And and that just didn't existearly on in my career.
You kind of sought each otherout and you knew, you know,
through time you figuredout who, who, who was gay,
(10:45):
who wasn't.
But it was all sortof very informal.
And so having these moreformalized structures in place
and recognition, I think givesso many people what I like to
think of as a more even playingfield that you can be your
authentic self when you come towork and you know that there's
(11:07):
a community that supports youand surrounds you.
And it's not justthat community, but it's the
entire organization because theentire organization is
supporting theseemployee resource groups.
I also think that we've come along way in terms of making
sure there is that equalplaying field so that
(11:27):
that the justbenefits like health care
are equally provided.
I remember back in the late 90sthinking what a wonderful
environment I worked in at MCIbecause it was very easy to be
open and out in thatin that workplace.
(11:51):
But at the time MCI did nothave health care benefits for
domestic spouses and AT&Tand Sprint did.
And I remember thinking, how dohow is this possible?
How can this be?
And I remember thinking likewanting to sort of lead an
effort on that.
(12:12):
And if I have a regret,it is that I didn't do that.
And so, you know, I thought,oh, someone else will,
you know, that's goingto change eventually.
And eventually more thingschanged in terms of the company
being absorbed by by Verizon.
But it you know I think aboutthat and was that like hiding
(12:37):
or that wasn't I wasn't hidingwho I was, but I
was holding back.
And I think that in theworkplace today, a lot less
people are holding back onwhere they see a situation that
isn't completely fair.
Well, and I love it.
I think your and your employeeresource group example of,
(12:58):
you know, not having thosetypes of resources, you know,
to your MCI example, you'd kindof have to go on your own.
You'd have to figure outwho would, who would I go to.
And if you were ina position of power, that could
be easier.
But I think, you know, one ofthe things is you told your
story about telling yourcolleague on the way
(13:18):
to the airport.
It also reminded me of is oneof the reasons that I started
Klout for Good is like you werementioning with, you know,
these conversationsand being open.
So many folks come up tome after, whether it's an
internal town hall meeting withthe whole company or maybe
(13:39):
speaking at an advertisingor marketing event.
And you still find youngeremployees saying, you know,
do you talk aboutyour weekend like your example?
And I think for me, again,sort of being one of the
reasons of starting Kloutfor good, it just really
strikes me as I agreewith you, that so much progress
(13:59):
has been made.
But I then go, wait a minute,I came out 25 years ago and
we're stillasking that question.
Is it okay totalk about yourself on Monday?
So think conversations likethis and sharing this
because we also.
I know a lot of folks thatidentify as a part of the queer
community aren't out and aren'ttalking about it.
And so my next questionwould be, and with your great
(14:21):
experience in working with theemployee resource group
and otherwise, you know,what advice?
You know, I think it's youmentioned privilege, and I
definitely have over the courseof my career understood I get
to sit behind, you know,white male privilege
when it's convenient.
And I think, you know,understanding what that is and
(14:43):
how to navigate that.
But I think that, you know,folks, when they think about
being more authentic, when theythink about coming out,
they may not feel safe.
They may, you know, be saying,hey, I want to make sure I
don't get overlookedfor that promotion.
You know what what advice mightyou give to folks that
are thinking, I'd like to comeout or I'd like to be more
(15:04):
authentic or show up moreauthentically or maybe even
that employee who's beencloseted at work and is
now saying, hey,there's resources,
maybe this is time.
What advice might you givefolks that are sort of
contemplating showing updifferently?
Well.
(15:25):
You know, my first piece ofadvice would be that
in any profession.
You know, make sure you'rechoosing the profession you
want to be in that you'repassionate about, that you get
excited about and be the bestthat you can be at it.
And that doesn't matter whoyou are, it doesn't matter what
(15:48):
your difference is.
And so I think that, you know,if you really are trying or if
you're truly pursuingyour passion, you will succeed.
Now, I do think that it'simportant to be your authentic
self in your workplace,because if you're hiding who
(16:08):
you are, you won't beas good as you can be.
No one can be theirbest if they're living in a
bubble of fear.
And so it's important to have aworkplace that is supportive.
And so I do think as you makedecisions around where you're
(16:30):
going to accept a job,I think, you know, you want to
make sure that it's a placethat you feel like you
can be yourself.
And so that's just something,you know, you have to navigate.
And, you know, there areyou know, unfortunately,
there still are real reasonsfor people to be afraid.
(16:51):
Not everybody has a workplacewhere they can feel supported.
Again, to your point earlier,I mean, we're what we
were discussing,it has changed dramatically.
But I'll give you one examplefrom it was a job I was in
again 30 years ago.
I pursued a role with a smallstartup firm for a year while
(17:18):
I'd taken a break from MCI.
And in that that role,this small startup
telecom company, I was leadingtheir product marketing and the
opening for the VP of salescame up and I wasn't actually
particularly interested in it,but I was having a conversation
with the CEO of the company oneday and he and I was very open
(17:43):
with him and he thought we werehaving like a good conversation
when he said to me, You know,Terry, you would be great for
that job, but I could never putyou in that role because the
sales team wouldn't respect youbecause you're so open about
your sexual orientation.
And I thought, Oh, okay.
(18:07):
I really was so dumbfoundedat the time.
I didn't know what todo about it.
The reality was I was actuallycontemplating my move out of
that company at the same timeas well, because I didn't think
it was going to succeed.
So I kind of just let it go.
But again, it's one of thosethings that sticks in your mind.
And I thought, you know, no oneshould ever feel that way,
(18:28):
right?
No one should ever bein that situation.
And unfortunately, we we dohave a lot of laws on the books
now for anti discriminationbased on sexual orientation,
based on where you arein the country.
But it's why there reallyshould be a National Employment
Non-Discrimination Act.
No one should have to sort oflive with that as a reason why
(18:52):
someone wouldn't get promoted.
So so I understand why there isa fear among some Lgbtq+ people
of being open and beingthemselves that perhaps perhaps
they won't get something thatthey would have otherwise if
people thoughtthey were straight.
Right.
But I think what you give up bynot being out is so much worse
(19:18):
in so much more of a handicap.
I think that for me, you know,despite that one example I
cited being my true self,being open, being out has been
a benefit for me.
I think it has allowed peopleto see me for who I am.
It's created a sense of trustbecause people know where I'm
(19:41):
coming from and it's helped meto build more real
relationships with people, and Idon't think it's sort of
ever hindered the career paththat I have been on.
Well, and, you know, I thinkit's just your story.
Thank you for sharing of,you know, being looked over
(20:03):
for a position.
I think those sit with peopleas that doesn't really happen.
That's not really true.
And I think, you know,thank you for sharing that
because it's proof that it does.
I'm positive it'shappening today, maybe in a
more subtle way, but itis still happening.
So it is really important.
Think like you were your advicearound folks thinking about
(20:26):
showing up more authentically?
I think the other thingI know we've both been involved
with this organization.
Personally and through.
Through friends of ours.
But the Human Rights Campaigntoday now has a tool called the
Corporate Equality Index.
Not every company is a partof it, but but every company is
encouraged to be a part of it.
And as we were talking aboutwith health care benefits or
(20:48):
whatever that might be, it doesgive you a really great guide
as you're thinking of companiesand thinking about
considering companies,how they, you know,
quote unquote score as part ofthe corporate equality index.
And it talks about what type ofenvironment and what type of
sort ofequitable opportunities exist.
So those are someother tools that people can
can certainly use.
(21:09):
And, you know, one of thethings I'd be interested in,
you talked about the exampleand the benefits and maybe not
capitalizing orstepping forward, but I am
positive because I watch,you know, the things that you
do with the companies you'veworked for and with
with WWF specifically.
(21:31):
You know, you havebeen authentically out.
You have been yourself.
And you said it's certainlybeen a benefit for
trust and relationships.
Where do you think, you know,to share an example?
Because I think sometimespeople are not sure what their
boundaries are or what they cando or how could they make a
difference where, you know,on this podcast, I'll call it
(21:52):
your Klout for good,but really it's, you know,
being out, how has being out,how have you use that out or
maybe taken an action that hasbenefited your organizations or
benefited the employees of yourorganizations or partners that
you work with?
Can you give us an examplewhere using your clout has made
(22:13):
an impact?
Sure one recent onesprings to mind.
We have a practice at WWF whereeach Friday a different member
of our senior management teamtakes their turn at writing a
note for the entire staff.
(22:34):
And it can be a reflection onanything that is important to
you at the time.
It could be something that'shappening in the news.
It could be a recentwin or result.
It really it's it's your spaceto use as you wish.
And so I it's my turn everycouple of months and I was
(23:03):
thinking that this past Junethat I really wanted to write
something for Pride month butbut it wasn't my turn in June.
My turn didn't comeup until August.
And so I reached out to someoneelse who had the turn in June
and was able to switch places.
And I just decided, I don'tknow, it was I was
(23:26):
talking with the members of ouremployee resource group and we
were going through theprogramming that we were doing
for for Pride.
And someone had asked me like,Well, could you see if,
you know, one of the Fridaynotes could mention that
it's Pride month.
And, and that's what spurred meinto action of thinking,
(23:46):
I'll do better than that.
I'm going to take over theentire note and write it about
pride and and and I reallywasn't sure what I
wanted to write.
And I thought about it andI thought, well, why pride?
Why is it why is pride sounique to our community when
it's not?
Every group can embrace pride.
Every individual should embracetheir own sense of pride.
(24:08):
But it's really because I thinkthat Lgbtq+ people have
embraced pride because it isthe opposite of shame.
Right?
And shame is this horribleemotion that we're sort of
taught as children to hidewho we are.
Other differences aren't soeasily hidden, and so they're
(24:28):
not as as relevant or as sortof deeply embedded in identity
as as much as I think it is forgay children who are taught to
hide who they are.
And, you know, the whole comingout process is that shedding of
of that guilt,that rejection, that pain.
(24:51):
And so coming out is soimportant as a celebration of
who you are.
And so I centered my note onthat and I got a
little nervous, but I thought,no, this is this is good.
Like, yes, I'm not I don't hideat work, but I don't
necessarily reveal everythingabout myself to 100% of the
(25:12):
workforce in a singlemoment in time.
And so I did that and I wrotethe note and I revealed some
things that I hadn't it'sinteresting I hadn't even told
my family about.
I had I had revealed thatdiscrimination situation that
I mentioned earlier.
I had talked about there weretimes I've been physically
(25:32):
assaulted for being gay.
And, you know, those are justthings that are deeply personal
and but I think important forpeople to know because it's as
I had said in my note,you know, Pride Month is is not
all about rainbows and dragqueens and sparkles and parades
(25:56):
down the street.
Right.
It's pride is a place that wecome to after years of struggle
with our identity andcontinuing to sort of reinforce
that sense of pridein oneself, even though it can
be batted down, you know,time and time again in,
(26:16):
in differentand unexpected ways.
And so I, I got over 100 emailresponses back from people who
were just so happy that I wentthere and that I sort of opened
up that door and I didn't Iguess I didn't expect that.
(26:37):
I didn't really I didn't reallyknow what to expect, but it
showed me that it is soimportant to create a workplace
and an environment wherepeople feel safe.
They feel that theycan be themselves.
And if you do that,they'll absolutely do
their best work.
(26:57):
And so, you know, isn't thatwhat we all want?
Like we all wantto succeed within whatever
organization we're in.
You know, WWF were fightingagainst climate change and the
loss of biodiversity and natureon the planet, and those aren't
easy things to overcome.
That takes the entire worldto come together.
(27:18):
And if we want our employeesdoing their best work,
they need to know they're in anenvironment that will support
them and support who they are,and they can be their true
selves and they can beall that they can be.
That's awesome.
So the callout for GoodCommunity includes queer people
(27:39):
and their allies who lots ofthe listeners are here to,
to get some tricks andtips on how maybe they can
improve their workplace.
So with your experience withERGs and lots of
different companies, what advicemight you give the
listeners who wantto make a difference?
What are some things that theymight be able to do, or what
are some changes you'd like tosee that might they might
(28:01):
pursue in the workplace?
Sure.
I thinkI think it's important to
take a chance.
When we were going through ourown programming for Pride Month
as part of our ERG,we were talking about different
(28:22):
programs that we could have andwe had we did a talk with an
author who wrote the bookcalled Queer Ducks,
which is all aboutsexual orientation and sexual
diversity withinthe animal kingdom.
And it's a fascinating read.
(28:47):
And and what youfind is that there are
there's an incredible amount ofdiversity when it comes to
the animal kingdom.
Andthe lesson is really that there
really is no such thing asbeing odd or being different,
(29:12):
that this kind of diversity ofsexual orientation and same sex
behavior exists in all animalsand across all species.
And so this idea of of beingdifferent is, I just think a
(29:35):
fascinating one of that beingdifferent is actually the
most normal thing.
It's actually not queer at all.
And so and so it was a, it wasa bit of a bent on in terms of
the kind of author you mightexpect us to bring in.
But it produced a really richconversation and everybody
(30:00):
really loved it.
And so I think that,you know, taking those kinds of
risks are important.
I would say that the otherthing is that if you're looking
to bring about change,be specific.
What's the changethat you are seeking?
And because I have found thatsometimes people can just have
(30:22):
a general sense of frustrationand with their workplace,
but not necessarily knowexactly what they need
to be different.
And so one thing that we'vedone at in our own workplace,
in our building is to createmore gender neutral bathrooms.
(30:43):
That was veryimportant to people.
The architecture didn'tnecessarily support it,
but there was a way and it tooka bit of time and it was an
important resource to have bothfor our employees as well
as our visitors.
And so it was something veryspecific that we could do that
mattered to a greatdeal a number of people.
(31:04):
So I do think that whenyou're looking, as we
talked about, there are so manychanges that have advanced in
the workplace that in somecases I think some people
wonder like what more what moreis there to do?
And I think if you can getreally specific about what
changes you want to see,then your leadership,
(31:27):
your management can act onthose because you're bringing
real issues to thetable that can be addressed.
Love it.
I think that's great.
My experience in working withinthe DNI teams at my company is
very much the samethought as you.
You know, it's it's easyto be frustrated.
It's easy to say thesethings aren't working.
(31:48):
And I think it's surprisingthat when you do have
suggestions that are specific,that action can be taken.
And hopefully, you know,companies will support that as
you bring those forward.
So two morequestions for you, Terry.
One is, um, you know, have youalong the way utilized you just
(32:08):
mentioned this book that I'lldefinitely include in
the show notes.
Um, but do you haveany tools or.
Resources, books ororganizations or, you know,
whatever maybe you thinkcould be helpful.
One of the other things I'veI've noticed with listeners is
they really want to draw onthese resources and tools to to
educate themselves or to beable to take action.
(32:30):
Any resources you would sharewith listeners that you have
found effectivethrough your experience.
Um, you know,it's interesting, David.
I was going to mention the HRCCorporate Equality Index.
Oh, yeah.
Okay, good.
Because I've been payingattention to it for decades and
have actually recently engagedin some discussions with folks
(32:52):
there about how they canbroaden it to include a wide
range of non-profits who havenot been a part
of that research.
It's been more focusedon the for profit community.
So I do think to the extentthat resources like that can be
broader for moreorganizations and, you know,
(33:15):
across many spectrums, you know,they all take a lot
of resources to makethose things happen.
And so they've been focused onon the biggest ones for sure.
But, you know, Out inEagle is another really great
organization that we haveparticipated in where they have
an annual conference that isreally inspiring for people who
(33:39):
are able to be a part of it andto know more about how they can
be leaders withintheir own organizations.
And then, you know, there's somany organizations that I think
that you can look atthat if they suit your needs,
like Glad, Right, which isfocused on the representation
of gays in the media, which Ithink has been such an
(34:03):
important issue to address overthe decades, to change the
perception of how Lgbtq+people are represented.
Smile for younger individuals,flag for parents, you know,
which may not necessarily bespecifically focused on
workplace issues,but your whole identity.
(34:24):
And it's important to focus onyour whole identity to be your
best professional self,as we've talked about.
So I think resourcesare out there like that.
That's awesome.
And I didn't know CorporateEquality Index didn't have a
sort of nonprofit sort of focusor that they had opportunity.
That's really that's reallygood to know.
So last question, Terry.
(34:46):
When I think after folks listento this episode and you saw
proof when you wrote yourJune email, you inspire
people for sure.
And I'm positive you've createdaction that you're not
even aware of.
But, you know, one thing I askeveryone to kind of end the
hour conversation is,you know, who's inspired Terry
(35:10):
along the way.
So if you're, you know,imagine and I know you love to
host a good dinner party.
So imagine if you're hosting adinner party for Klout
for good, what, 2 or3 queer icons.
And they don't have to be icons.
They just can be someone who'sbeen influential to you,
who were a few of those folksthat you would invite that have
(35:31):
inspired you along the way.
So thinking about the dinnerparty and wanting a mix of
people for fascinating andinteresting conversation,
you know, if we could bringhim back, it would be amazing
to have HarveyMilk there, right?
(35:51):
I mean, he wasthe first elected.
Out.
Gay official in the state ofCalifornia and literally died
for the cause.
I mean, he was assassinated andbut such a pioneer.
And I think it would be sogreat to be able to talk with
(36:11):
him about what that fight waslike and what it was like
coming out in the 60sand early 70s.
I think it would begreat to have Lily Tomlin.
Um, she is because you needsomeone who's really funny and
I think she's hysterical and,and you know, she's in her 80s
(36:34):
now and as vibrant as ever andshe's one person who I can
remember her myselfon Laugh-In, and I've watched
her on Grace and Frankie.
So I, I feel like she has beenwith me my entire life since as
(36:55):
a laughing at her comedy as achild through today and then.
I would add Gus Kenworthy.
Because you need someone,you know, you need young voices.
You need people who are,you know, as we talked about
before or just, you know,who really focused on their
(37:17):
profession and exceeding inbeing the best that they can be.
And he is an amazing Olympianand he so embraces
his queer identity.
And he is just he iswho he is and he doesn't hide
it from anyone.
And I think that having thatkind of diversity of of age
(37:38):
and experience would be prettyfascinating conversation.
I love it.
And I just saw on Instagramover the weekend he bought
his mama house.
I saw that.
Yes.
So he's a good son.
And and also in my living roomhave a one of the original
(38:00):
campaign posters of Harvey Milk.
He's one of my definitelysomeone would invite to
the table too.
So that's that's awesome.
I love it.
I want to be invited for sure.
Well, Terry, thank you so muchfor your time today.
I you know, as I alludedto folks, as we started, I was
on Terry's team asone of my first jobs.
(38:23):
And I can attest to and nowknowing him all these years
later is trulya thoughtful, authentic leader.
And I really, really value youropinion and what you do.
So thank you so muchfor for joining me today.
Well, David, thank youfor asking me.
It's been a pleasureto have this kind of
(38:44):
conversation with you.
And I love seeing the work thatyou're doing and the kind of
leadership across the LGBTQspectrum that you are advancing.
So thank you.
Yeah, Thank you, Terry.
And to my listeners, thank youso much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode
(39:04):
of Klout for Good.
Follow us on Social,Visit Klout for good.
To subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope that this episode givesyou the motivation to use your
Klout for good to make adifference in the workplace.
Thanks for joining.
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