November 25, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode of Clover, I sit down with my former teammate Jordan Lea, now VP of Customer Experience at Plum, to talk about bold career leaps, people-first leadership, and building a meaningful career on your own terms. Jordan shares her journey from a tiny town in North Carolina with dirt roads and cornfields to moving to New York City with no job lined up, flying standby for interviews, taking an unpaid internship in fashion, becoming employee #5 at a fashion tech startup, and eventually finding her sweet spot in HR tech and customer experience.
We dig into what it really looks like to grow up inside startups; wearing every hat, building resilience, and learning to say “give me whatever you’ve got” instead of “that’s not my job.” Jordan talks about how she evaluates new opportunities by looking beyond the job description and title to the company’s mission, timing in her personal life, and whether there’s true alignment with what she cares about. We also get into culture (beyond the buzzword), psychological safety, and her “skill vs. will” framework for coaching and developing people. She shares practical advice for women who feel boxed in or underestimated at work, how to make intentional career pivots into new industries, and how AI can actually free CX teams to be more human, not less.
You’ll hear us talk about:
- Taking big leaps: moving to a new city with no safety net, changing industries, and asking “What’s the worst that could happen?”
- Startups as a career accelerator: why being early-stage employee #5 shaped her leadership, adaptability, and ability to “Sherpa” others through growth.
- Skill vs. will: how she decides when to invest in someone’s potential versus when there’s a true mismatch.
- Building real culture: trust, authenticity, and psychological safety as non-negotiables, not just slide-deck values.
- Career pivots with intention: how to research new fields, show up prepared to conversations, and decide if an opportunity is a “go” or “no-go” for your life.
- AI + Customer Experience: using AI to streamline the boring parts so humans can focus on relationships, storytelling, and proactive support.
- Her surprisingly fun productivity hack (involving a giant medicine ball)
If you’re a woman in leadership, or aspiring to be one, who feels ready for your next leap but isn’t sure what it looks like yet, this conversation with Jordan will give you both the mindset and the practical tools to start moving.
Connect with Jordan on LinkedIn!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Geiger (00:10):
Hey everybody, welcome to the latest episode of
clover. Thank you for joining usthis week. We have Jordan Lee.
She is currently vice presidentcustomer experience at Plum.
Jordan and I, just disclosure,have worked together in the
past, so we're super excited toactually catch up and see each
other. I love this part ofrecording the podcast. I get to
(00:31):
connect with people so Jordan,thank you so much for taking the
time to chat today. Absolutely.
Unknown (00:37):
Aaron, it's great to see you and talk to you again,
and thank you for having me on
Erin Geiger (00:42):
for sure, you're one of my favorite people. You
know when we worked togetherbefore? So So I typically do
jump right in with these, and Iam always. I get enamored with
hearing people's stories like Ifeel like everybody has a story.
And I love to hear how peoplegot from point A to point B, how
they started out and how theygot to where they are today. So
(01:04):
if you would indulge me in thatand kind of tell us your story,
that would be amazing.
Unknown (01:09):
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm right there with you. I love
an origin story. I love hearingabout people and where they come
from, and you know how that allkind of transpired. It's just so
interesting. We've all had suchdifferent, such different
experiences and backgrounds, andit's fascinating to learn about
that kind of thing. But anyway,with that said, you know, while
(01:30):
I, as you know, I come from, youknow, small little town North
Carolina, dirt roads, cornfields, a leaky stoplight, that
sort of thing I've always had,and been very fortunate to have
a lot of you know, travel and myworld was big, a lot of
different experiences anddifferent places, different
people. So with that, my justbaseline personality. I love
(01:52):
adventure. I love adrenaline andgrowth and trying and learning
new things. I hate stagnancy,and that applies to my personal
life and my professional lifealike. But, you know, we really
think about, you know, whatmakes, what makes you thrive,
what makes somebody like happyin that? And for me, it's, it's
(02:13):
really, you know, who's along onthat journey with me too? And I
just, you know, I think that'swhere the people centric part
comes into place, and I'vealways been very kind of social
person in that regard. Maybe alittle different since covid
That certainly made me more ofan introvert. But yeah, it
really lended itself rather tothat switch from North Carolina
(02:37):
to my typical atmosphere tocoming to New York City and
working in the businesses andthe industries that I've worked
in,
Erin Geiger (02:45):
yeah, let's dive into that little bit. So where
did your career take you first?
Like, let's talk about thattrajectory of, kind of, like,
where you started and, you know,the path that led you to where
you are now, at Plum, yeah,
Unknown (02:59):
absolutely. So I moved to New York City, like a typical
cliche, to work in fashion. Idid for many years. I really
just honestly, I applied toanything and everything that I
possibly could in New York whilestill living in North Carolina.
(03:19):
So I would fly standby up onflights to have job interviews,
often with my luggage, mysuitcase in hand and telling
them I flew up just for thisinterview. And eventually I
landed a job, but it was reallyanything and everything in
fashion, right? I had no ideawhat I wanted to do. I went. I
(03:39):
had a degree in merchandisingand business and to try to
figure out make it work. And Ilanded, actually, at an unpaid
internship with a modelingagency during fashion week. But
to me to young Jordan, that wasmore than enough, and I broke at
the time, so I got a $2,500personal loan, moved myself up
(03:59):
to New York. My best friends. Wewere four years old. Had just
started medical school in thecity, so I crashed with her in
her dorm until I, you know, hadanother job that actually paid
me and could find an apartmentand do all of that. And then
again, I finally did. I got thisgreat opportunity at a fashion
(04:20):
technology startup where I wasemployee number five, and I got
the opportunity to wear as manyhats as humanly possible, which
I didn't know that I loved, butnow, obviously I do, came on
board as a customer successmanager, but really what that
transitioned into was everythingright. I was helping out on
(04:42):
sales calls and leads andonboarding and ongoing
management and anything andeverything, which then kind of
sparked the time that I spent infashion tech and those kinds of
SaaS based solutions. But thenwhat really made me trans. To
where I am today, though, is,you know, another cliche,
(05:04):
fashion is exactly what everyonetells you. It is, I realized I
loved it so much, but I didn'tlove working in it like I
thought I would. So I kind ofcame to this fork in the road
of, okay, well, if it's notfashion, then what is it that
I'm like? What is it that I'veenjoyed doing and thriving in
that I want to continue toexplore more? And it was that,
(05:28):
you know, like relationshipbuilding part, it was the
onboarding and the customermanagement and working in a
company and a SaaS solutionwhere I saw my impacts and how
they were or how they wereimpacting, rather the employer
that we're working with, ourcustomers, as well as the
organization as a whole. So itkind of clicked. And I really
(05:51):
realized that, you know, I likebuilding these things. I liked
this kind of environment, andokay, if it's not going to be in
fashion, then what's it going tobe in I had a good recruiter
friend that reached out to meabout an opportunity at bounty
jobs, where Aaron and I met, andit was HR technologies at a
fashion The interesting part isthat the business model was
(06:14):
exactly the same. So instead ofconnecting buyers and fashion
houses or designers and makingtheir relationship, the ordering
and all of that easier and morestreamlined, while also creating
a marketplace for them to expandtheir own businesses. Bounty
Jobs did that, but for thirdparty recruiters and employers
(06:36):
that had jobs to build sostreamline that process of them
working together created amarketplace for them to expand
their business. So it seems likea natural kind of fit. But then
I thought to myself, Okay, whatdo I know about HR? Though? Why
do I care about HR? Is thissomething I want to, you know,
give up attachment and jump intoand when I got to know bounty
(06:59):
jobs as a company more and theirwhy and what they were solving
for and the impact that they hadon customers and the industry.
That's really when it allflicked. So I realized it's
about seeing an alignmentbetween myself, what I care
about, the good in the world, ifyou will, and what the company
(07:19):
is doing to make an impact, andI kind of fell into this HR tech
world, and now it's been wellover a decade, and I never
thought I'd end up here, but I'mso happy to be here.
Erin Geiger (07:33):
Yeah, no, that's awesome, and it's a perfect fit
for you too, because you reallyare so personable, and you know
you really do look out for thebest interests of each and every
person like you're just sogenuine. So it's no mistake that
you fell into that industry,that's for sure. And so I love
(07:53):
that you moved to New York withnothing lined up. I did a very
similar thing moving to SanFrancisco. Like, no job. Like,
no. I was like, oh, we'll figureit out. So for those that are
listening, you know, they thereprobably are some listeners that
are, like, on the verge oftaking a jump, taking a plunge,
you know. So, like, what helpedyou kind of take that leap,
(08:18):
right? Of like, Oh, I'm justgonna go to New York, no job,
you know. I'm gonna, like, crashwith my friend, you know, and
see how this, this works out,like, because that could be
aligned with people's careers,right? They want to make a move
and want to make a jump, andthey're just like, Ugh, you
know, so kind of, what sort ofmindset were you in to do
something like that?
Unknown (08:37):
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, at that point in my life,
especially this was a long timeago. I was determined, I was
fearless, I was young, and Iknew that I wanted to be in New
York, and that was enough. I'llfigure out the rest when I get
there along the way, right? Buthaving the mindset, honestly, of
what's the worst that couldhappen? You know what? In my
(08:58):
specific scenario, I failmiserably, and I go back to
North Carolina and I regroup.
Who bears at least I tried, andwe learned from it, we grew from
it, and especially now so often.
And this is, I think, somethingthat women especially face is,
not only are we put in boxes,but then we'll put ourselves in
boxes too. So having theconfidence to break that down,
(09:22):
and, you know, allow yourself totry new things or to take a
risk, and whether that's at yourown organization or, you know,
just venturing out and taking aclass in something that
interests you, or going to thatnetworking meetup alone that
gives you So many nerves, youknow, just try it. Nobody's
(09:42):
perfect. That's, I think, a bigthing that I had to learn is
that we're all just out heredoing our best, and there's no
harm trying. And just have toget out there and do it, and you
figure it out for yourself. It'snot about the judgment of others
or others perceptions.
Erin Geiger (09:58):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And I think that can be appliedto working in a startup
environment, right? So when yousaid you were like, employee
number five, and it is so true,like, I've worked in so many
startups, and it's like, yes,you have the role that you were
hired for, but that's not youronly role. It's whatever needs
to be done. So you know, andgetting into the startup world
(10:21):
early on in your career. I mean,I think it's a huge benefit. I,
you know, I had a, you know,it's kind of a same kind of a
parallel sort of growthtrajectory in that, you know, I
got involved in startups very,very early on. So how did that
kind of impact you for the restof your career, as far as, like,
(10:41):
leadership and, you know,resilience as you kind of move
forward, because you did switch,right? You know, industries are
focused that sort of a thing.
So, so working in a startup andkind of, like wearing every hat,
you know, how has that impactedyou along along the way? Yeah, I
Unknown (11:00):
think for me, and especially I love the word that
you use resilience, like, in myeyes, there's just no way around
it right in this job that I wasin in this city, like you just
have to keep going, like, that'sjust a fact, and adapt and take
whatever comes and to yourearlier point, there's no room
for a well, this is not My job,so I can't help with that
(11:22):
attitude. It always needs to bea give me whatever you can throw
at me. Of course, within reason,we don't want to over overwork
people and things like that, butgive me whatever you got. These
are growth and learningopportunities, and that's
exactly what they were. So forme, not only did I learn so much
tangibly, but I learned aboutdifferent roles within an
(11:42):
organization, and it allows youto branch out into these areas
that you might not otherwise,and then provides a little more
insight and focus. You know, Igot to then learn more what I
wanted to explore, career wise,and now as a leader, understand
much better of how to share, butothers in that same or a similar
(12:03):
process,
Erin Geiger (12:03):
yeah, and it's all about having that open mind,
right? Because, like, you comein as something like, Okay, I'm
going to do this function, youknow, but then, like, to your
point, you get to see what elseis going on in the company and
what you might be interested in.
So honestly, I'm kind of likerecommending people start at a
startup at the beginning oftheir career. Absolutely, it's
(12:24):
such a great way to see what allis out there. And, you know, and
what you know, it's a good testbed, you know, because it is a
little bit easier to move aroundto, you know, like, oh, maybe
I'll start in talentacquisition, and then I'll move
over to product, or I'll moveover to sale, you know, and kind
of, like, see what, see what's,what fits you. And so you've,
(12:46):
kind of, it seems like eachplace that you've worked has
gone through really rapidgrowth, right? So you've worked
startups, you've been throughacquisitions. So, you know, talk
a little bit about that, like,because you've had to scale
teams and people like whileyou're helping to scale a
company. And so what talk alittle bit about that? And you
(13:08):
know how, how you're able to dothat, because, because of the
nature of your work, you areworking come with people and
nurturing their career, youknow, that sort of a thing. And
so how have you applied that?
Unknown (13:25):
Yeah, so two things stick out immediately. One is
treating humans like humans,right, understanding the person
behind the work, and making surethat they are supported in a way
that they need to be successful,and make sure that they know
that they have a voice. Youknow, it sets nobody for success
if something is just forced uponthem or shoved down their throat
and are told just to deal withit. And quite frankly, that goes
(13:47):
for employees and organizationsand how I work with customers
alike, but as a leader, forexample, you know, I know what
the job needs. I know theproject isn't these things, like
inside and out, but things arenot things and people are not a
one size fits all, so you needto use that deep understanding
(14:08):
to customize certaininteractions or processes or
things like that for whateverthe person in the situation is,
while Also not compromising theintegrity of the product. Yeah.
Erin Geiger (14:22):
No, that makes a lot of sense. And so, and it's
all about kind of create you Iwould imagine you would have a
big part in creating culturearound, you know, like, where
you're you're working. So what,you know, I always hear people
talk about, like, how culture isso important, and we got to
build great culture. And, youknow, it's like, culture,
(14:44):
culture, culture. And it's likeso many buzzword right now,
right? Exactly. So many timespeople are just like, they say
it, and then there's no actionbehind it. So it's like, what
have you done, or what have youseen? Especially now, right?
There's so much change going onin the world. Place like that
actually helps people build theculture that they want in their
(15:07):
workforce and have it actuallystick like, what have you seen
work in that
Unknown (15:12):
absolutely. And it can be tricky, right? Because you're
hitting certain metrics, and youcan say, Okay, I made this sale,
or I hit this number, or Iachieved X, Y and Z, but culture
is so much more subjective anddifferent for different people,
and there's so many layers toit. And as we're humans, we're
all different, and there's somuch to consider here from the
(15:34):
human side, from the businessside. So when I boil it all
down, what really helps buildthat the most for me is things
like trust and authenticity,psychological safety, you know,
consistently showing up forothers and for yourself, and it
goes every which way. You know,it's very much a two lane road
(15:55):
or multi line, mostly Laneinterstate, excuse me, yeah. So
for example, you know my team,they know what my personal
dreamers are. They know thethings that I might skip over or
I might struggle to do as wellwhen I'm burnt out or I'm extra
busy, and I've given them theautonomy to straight up tell me
(16:15):
when I'm failing at thosethings, or if I'm not giving
them all that they need to besuccessful, to be comfortable,
whatever it is. And then I'lltie it back to, you know what I
said at the top of this questionabout trust and authenticity and
psychological safety. Becausewithout those things, you're not
going to be able to build a goodculture. You're not going to be
able to take risks. People aregoing to trust not just you, but
(16:38):
the organization also. Yeah,
Erin Geiger (16:40):
and they're going to kind of hold things very
close to the vest, right? Andso, and not speak about things,
even if it's like an innovativeidea, or, on the flip side,
something negative that they'reseeing going on in the company,
you know? And so it's kind oflike, it kind of breeds, like
non communication, really, anddistrust to your point. And so I
(17:06):
you know, as you're speakinglike, I can't help but notice
like you have you've changedthrough, went through a few
different industries, right? Andso it's like fashion recruiting,
tech, HR, tech, that sort of athing. So again, I'm seeing that
pattern of like, let's go, let'stry it, let's do it. You know,
it's such a love. So it's like,for how do you approach that?
(17:28):
Like, you basically learn newindustries. I mean, I'm sure
there's overlap betweenrecruiting tech and HR tech, you
know, and that that sort of athing. But it's like, you know,
for those that are just like, Iwant to especially now, because
the employment market is alittle crazy. And I personally
know a lot of people who areswitching careers, right,
because they either they can'tget a certain level role in
(17:51):
their career, or they're like,maybe this is the time for me to
make a move. And so like, whatdo you say? Like, how do you
approach that? Like, learning anew industry from scratch, kind
of like jumping into somethingnew. Career wise, like you did
it personally, going to NewYork, and then career wise,
like, you know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Unknown (18:10):
I think he just, you cannot be afraid to jump in and
get your hands dirty. And it'salmost easier now than it was,
you know, like for me 15 yearsago, with all the things and
technology and visibility thatwe have available to us, there's
so many different ways that youcan educate yourself or dive
(18:32):
into another area of thebusiness, another another
industry altogether, and there'sso much that you can do to help
yourself in that way. Obviously,community is also incredibly
important. I wouldn't be where Iam without the connections that
I've made both, you know,personally, professionally. I
(18:52):
mean, I'm on this podcast rightnow, but you Aaron, because of
that, we you know, so importantto find people that you know,
good mentors, support systemsand again, just the
fearlessness, like just take aleap, try it, do it, and if your
company is not affording youthat opportunity right now,
(19:13):
there are other ways that youcan gain at least that education
yourself.
Erin Geiger (19:17):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And I always feel like if adesire is placed on your heart,
it's there for a reason, right?
And so, to your point, it'slike, find people in that area,
like, be it like a mentor or,you know, just someone that has
an area is their area ofexpertise, you know, because so
many people like, they want tohelp, and they want to answer
(19:38):
your questions and that sort ofa thing. So even if it's like,
totally different, opposite thanfrom what you've been doing,
yeah, I love, I love yourthought of like, find those
people. There are people withinthat area, that that topic area,
that can really give you thatinfo and also give you the info,
so that maybe you're like, No,actually, that's not for me.
(19:58):
Just kidding, you know. And.
Need to go in a differentdirection.
Unknown (20:02):
So coming to those conversations, not just say,
like, I'm interested inmarketing, tell me about it,
right? But this has been myexperience. This has been what
I've perhaps been afforded. Thisis the research I did. This is
what I understand. This is whatI still like to know. You know,
I don't know what I don't know.
So coming forward with, youknow, your own research and
ideas, and not as, like thatkind of blank slate of of
(20:26):
expecting somebody to just teachyou. It's really about
collaboration, right? Neverexpected to get fully all the
way there by yourself, but, youknow, it's a push pull.
Erin Geiger (20:40):
Yeah, no, exactly.
And so on that tangent. So whenyou are considering a new
opportunity, right? Like, maybeyou're going to jump to a new
company, or, you know, just anew role, how do you evaluate
that, right? How do you kind ofmake that decision whether it
fits you or not? Because I lovethat you've you've said before,
it's like, you know the missionof bounty jobs, right? And so,
(21:02):
and it's like that missionmatched your values, and you're
like, let's go. And so, like,what do you kind of use when
you're evaluating newopportunities in your career
that kind of give you the go, nogo as you move along?
Unknown (21:15):
Yeah, absolutely. So there is a lot of professional
evaluation that goes into it, ofcourse, right, like what
directions you want to go,things you want to learn, and
things like that. But I thinktoo often people also misplace
or put on the back burner thepersonal considerations. I've
had opportunities come up whereeverything looked amazing on
(21:40):
paper, but it wasn't the righttime for me, at that moment in
my life, because of whatever wasgoing on, or, you know, anything
at the time. So really, Iencourage people to look at the
full picture, because if you'renot setting yourself up for
success, excuse me, and askingall the questions and getting
the full scope of things. Then,you know, it's, again, you're
(22:03):
just not setting yourself up forsuccess there. And there's so
many different things. We'rehumans at the end of the day, I
know I keep saying that, no, but
Erin Geiger (22:10):
it's so true, and it's, you're right. There's so
many dynamics to look at. It'snot just the salary, the
benefits, you know, thestability of the company, you
know, that sort of a thing. It'slike, this is your life. You
spend more time at work than youdo otherwise, you know. And so,
to your point, it's like, yeah,looking at the big picture of
like, okay, is this company?
Like, are the values match mine?
(22:32):
Is it something that's at leastpartially of interest, you know,
to what I want to do is, youknow? And does it work with my
lifestyle? Does it? You know?
Does it give me enough time withmy family? You know, all of
those things should ideally. Imean, it's sort of like a
privilege, right? When you cansay yes or no to a job based
upon, oh, it doesn't fit myschedule, there's, there's some
(22:55):
times when that doesn't right,and it's, you have to be
realistic, and it's like, I needthe salary right now, you know?
And that's kind of another wayto look at it too, right? Some
jobs are like a bridge tosomething else. It's just your
thing for right now. And I, andI think, you know, I encourage
people to kind of look at itthat way too, of like, sometimes
it's not the ideal situation,but it's okay for right now. And
(23:16):
it's like a little bridge towhat's next. You know what I
mean?
Unknown (23:22):
100% Yeah. And that's what I mean by, you know, it's
also a personal evaluation and apersonal choice. Sometimes you
have the luxury, sometimes youdon't, right?
Erin Geiger (23:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I mentioned
earlier how you are sopersonable and like you're so
you have high level of empathy,which I love. And you, you did
mention like I am so I'm openwith my team. Like, look, I
excel in these things and thesethings, not so much. Call me out
on it. Let's collaborate. Andthe same with your team. They're
(23:52):
great at some things that somethings, that's so as a leader,
how do you kind of, like balancethat you're like, so driven, but
then you also, I think it's abeautiful combination of, like,
this high level of ambition anddrive, but then you're also have
a level of empathy andhumanness, so, and I think a lot
(24:13):
of leaders aspire to that. Sotalk a little bit about that.
You know, as you kind of balanceall that, as you're leading your
team,
Unknown (24:20):
absolutely so you're right. My mentality is, go, go,
go. Never let it settle, alwayskeep moving. Yeah, and I do have
deep empathy for those aroundme, but at the same time, I can
very much lack empathy formyself, and that can create
shortcomings in those around meand how I could be making them
feel right. So as as I'vedeveloped into leadership
(24:43):
positions and things of thatnature, I frankly, spent a lot
of time and effort into slowingmyself down and listen. It
beneficial for me too. Mytherapist love that I'm doing
this, being able to appreciatewhat I have accomplished and
what I have in the morning.
Moment and not just always belooking forward, but making sure
that I'm also giving thatsupport, the kudos, the high
(25:04):
fives to my teams, to crossdepartmental teams, instead of
just saying, you know, okay,good job. What's next? Because
it's all you know that maybethat's all I personally need in
the moment, but it's not fair tosay that's what all everyone
else needs, or that's notimportant to say that and do
more of appreciating the momentthat you're in and what you've
(25:27):
just accomplished.
Erin Geiger (25:30):
Yeah, so looking at each person on your team as
their own person, and like, whatmotivates them, right? And like,
what, what do they individuallyneed to move forward. Yeah, I
get that. And so a lot of timeswe are given these, like, KPIs
(25:50):
and these, like, mess, you know,like, it's like, here's the
growth metric. This is whatwe're hitting this quarter, like
this, you know? And it's like,okay, great, you know. But it's
like, you also, like we weretalking about, need to say
people centered, and so, but youhave this business pressure, but
then you have the people. And sohow do you marry the two, you
(26:11):
know, like these goals and thesequotas and these numbers, but
then you're, you're leading thisteam. And so how have you, kind
of, like, crossed that hump? AndI know it's like, it's always a
challenge, right? You know? Andit's like, we have to hit these
things, but then also, these arepeople with lives and things
going on, you know? And so howdo you kind of merge the two?
Unknown (26:30):
Yeah, so, I mean, at the end of the day, those are,
we're on a revenue team, right?
We're part of the revenue sideof the business, so we have to
hit those numbers in order forthe lights to stay on. There's
no two ways about it. But if wetake it back to the whole trust
and authenticity and consistencyand psychological psychological
safety part of it, you know thatalso it allows you to have fun
(26:52):
in it too. It's not always sorigid, and there are things that
we can control or influence, andthere's things that we can't but
if we have the right people inthe right roles at the right
time, and we have thatpsychological safety and trust,
then we're enjoying what we'redoing. We're enjoying doing it
together. And therefore it'sgoing to be easier to
(27:14):
strategize, to proactively actinstead of only reactively, and
know that at the end of the day,whatever those ROI outcomes are,
the KPIs outcomes, that we'vegone all out and we've left it
on the table, and we'veaccomplished everything that you
know you humanly possibly could.
(27:38):
And that's, that's a great team,yeah.
Erin Geiger (27:41):
And it's, you know, it's, it's everybody in
lockstep, linking arms, goingafter a common goal together,
you know? And I think that somany times that the issue is
like people just like, aresiloed. And, you know, that's
that makes it tough, right, tomove forward. So really, really
does, yeah. And then would yousay it's kind of similar, like,
(28:03):
when you're looking at thecompany level, right? So we've
been talking a lot about, like,being a leader of a team within
an organization, and so when youlook at like company wide, would
you say it's kind of similar,like, seeing the potential and
people like, I, I had thismanager once in my career, and
there was someone on our teamwho I was like, Oh, they're they
(28:26):
need some help. They need somesupport. And this manager saw it
and but they were so great thatthey were like, yes, but this
person has the interest and thedrive to learn. So I am going to
support this person intobecoming like, you know, kind of
(28:47):
like growing into the role thatthey are currently in. It'd be
very easy to manage this personout, right, but instead they
were like, but no, we see thisperson is trying and they're
interested, and we do see thatthere is potential there. So
it's like, you know, how cancompanies get better at that?
(29:08):
You know, it's like seeing thepotential and the people, you
know, rather than just a numberon a sheet kind of a thing,
Unknown (29:17):
yeah, that is it's hard to do, right? And I talk a lot
about that too, using the termslike skill and will. So somebody
that doesn't have the skill, butthey have the will and the
desire to go and try this orlearn this, that's great, like,
we can work with that, right?
There's other versions of itthat don't lead itself to being
as like, forward moving, butthat was one of the things that
(29:41):
I really loved about plum, mycurrent company, when I found
this opportunity. It's about,again, understanding the person
behind the work and really nottrying to pigeonhole because of,
you know, this is what I do.
This is how I do it. This iswhat the company. Does. It's
like, take let's take a stepback. Let's mentor and have
(30:04):
conversations and understandwhere this other person is
coming from. Because, justbecause they're approaching
something differently, orthey're not seeing the same
results that you are, or youknow, there's any sort of
conflict there, it doesn't meanthat it's being done wrong. This
is an opportunity to understandthat person, and again, how they
approach the work and theirthought process, and therefore
(30:28):
how you can best support them,
Erin Geiger (30:31):
right, exactly. And I love that skill, skill and
will that's actually prettyperfect. So there are listeners,
and you know, most of our ouraudience are women, so who, you
know you mentioned earlier inthe conversation, like,
sometimes we box ourselves in,sometimes we're we're put in a
box, right? So for those womenlistening who who are feeling
(30:55):
maybe underestimated or they'reboxed in by their current roles,
but they have the skill and thewill and they have the ambition,
and they're like, this is notwhere I should be, you know. So
what advice would you give them,you know, about, like, really,
kind of advocating for theirtheir own potential and their in
their own future? Because, as wespoke about earlier, it's like,
if you don't make the movesyourself, like, it's pretty rare
(31:18):
situation where someone's goingto come to you tap you in the
shoulder and be like, Hey, I seeyou. I see your potential. You
should be up over here. Come on,you know. And it's like you
gotta stick up for yourself andmake your your own moves. So
what advice do you have forthose that are dealing with that
right now?
Unknown (31:34):
Yeah, so being proactive, right? Just goes back
to what we were talking aboutearlier. And if you're
interested in something, then doyour own research and
understanding. And you know youthere's so many tools out there
now for you to help yourself inthat, and then also finding
community and network. So it'skind of the same idea as far as
(31:55):
that's concerned, right? Like,don't be afraid to take a leap.
Don't be afraid to put yourselfout there. There is no growth in
comfortability. And it's not afailure, it's just a learning
opportunity, right? Like yousaid before, maybe you will go
into something different orlearn about something, and you
thought you were going to bereally passionate about it, and
(32:15):
now you realize that you'reactually not interested in this
at all. You want to leave it inthe dust, and that's totally
fine, but it's, I think aboutjust taking the leap, and, you
know, having the confidence inyourself, and, you know, not
being afraid to kind of put itout there, yeah.
Erin Geiger (32:33):
And some companies have, like, mentorship, you
know, opportunities, right? Andso it's kind of connecting into
that, like talking to someoneyou know in a totally different
realm, if that's what you'reinterested in, if your company
doesn't have that, like, to yourpoint, it's like you can find
people and message them at yourcompany within another industry,
(32:56):
what have you. And so I'mcurious. Like, so you're in, you
know, the HR world, like, what,how has it changed? Like, and
what challenges, I mean, you'vebeen through covid After covid,
like, the whole thing. Whatchanges have you seen in HR?
Like, what challenges do you seenow that got the kind of impact
in that industry and what you'rewhat you're dealing with?
Unknown (33:19):
Yeah, there's been so many changes. Throughout the
last decade and a half. Oh mygosh. And it was, honestly, it's
interesting how similar it wasin fashion and fashion tech and
HR tech too. If we want to stripit all down at the core, these
are industries and businessesthat have been around for years
(33:40):
and decades and so long. So whenour companies in that space or
industries is really easy tofall into the well, this is just
how we've always done it stuckway of a place, right? And
therefore the innovation andimproving processes and things
like that and just be a harderLift There's, there's so much to
(34:04):
like the DE and I initiatives ornon initiatives. Now,
unfortunately, um, there's alsoso much change in the jobs and
the workforce and the skillsthat are needed, right? So the
half life of certain skills.
That used to be five years. Thenit went down to two, and now
we're looking at six months insome areas. You know, it doesn't
(34:25):
matter that you could codePython anymore. Now I don't want
you to learn this new thing, andit's almost less about the
skills and the knowledge andwhat you know, and more about
your own talents, your ownadaptation, your own resilience
and ability to move as quicklywith these changes and again,
(34:46):
learn and adapt as needed,because right now, it's moving
at such an unprecedentedly fastpace, it can be hard to keep up.
Erin Geiger (34:59):
Yeah. Right, for sure, and it's like, how is, how
is AI impacted what you do,absolutely.
Unknown (35:07):
So that's the hard thing with customer success,
right? Because it's so personal,and we're with our customers day
in and day out, and what worksfor one maybe doesn't work for
the other. And what really setsa lot of customer experience
teams apart is that, you know,personal relationship and
understanding of one another,but at the same time, there are
(35:30):
so many, as long as we're, youknow, open to it, and we need to
learn about it and take thoseleaps. Right so many ways that
AI can help to streamlineprocesses, to make things more
efficient, not just for thecustomer, customers, but for the
CX teams themselves, and thatthen allows you, and frees up
you as a person of your time tomake those, make sure that
(35:51):
those, those personalconnections don't slip. But
there's just, there's so manyopportunities to be able to make
things just work better, morestreamlined, faster, more
intuitively, so that you canspend more time on, you know,
again, the people and therelationships and the growth and
(36:12):
exploring other areas forfurther innovation.
Erin Geiger (36:16):
Yeah, that's the thing with customer experience,
because the, I mean, the personis at the focus point, you know,
like and what you do so much,you know, more than so many
other industries. And so it'slike leveraging AI as a tool
like you said to, you know, giveyou more time to give that
(36:37):
personal touch on the themoments that really matter.
Right on the issues that reallymatter, yeah,
Unknown (36:44):
not about automating the whole customer experience
process. It's about, you know,making, like you said, making
the time so that, as forexample, you scale as an
organization, you scale in yourown job, your own career, that
you then have the time to do allof those other things that you
(37:04):
want to do and build and growand innovate, because doing
things you know, how you didthem last year versus how you're
doing them now, it's not goingto fit anymore. You need to give
yourself that time back. Andthat's a lot of where AI comes
in.
Erin Geiger (37:18):
Yeah, what excites you as you look forward, you
know, like when you look forwardin your career, in general, and
then also, like in customerexperience, like, what are you
most, you know, excited orpassionate about for what's to
come?
Unknown (37:34):
I, especially when we're talking about, you know,
AI, right? And then affordingit, affording us as individual,
myself, as a leader, to thendive deeper into other areas of
the business and focus on otherthings, and you know, myself and
growth in the company, all youknow, all which ways, that's
(37:55):
what really excites me. BecauseI always feel like there's so
much more that can be done. Youknow, I'm very big on again,
acting proactively rather thanreactively. That's how you're
going to get the bestexperience, how you get this
result, especially in CX. But wedon't always have the time for
that, so using AI, not only togive us time back, but then to
(38:18):
help us to maybe gather customerinformation, to weave stories
together more purposefully, tohelp us tell these stories and
make an impact to our customersas we're speaking to them, to
prospects, as you know we'reworking the sales on that side
of things, and being able tomake it so much more personal
(38:42):
and and specific for that personand that client, that customer.
That's what's getting sopowerful. And it's not about
just, you know, puttingsomething together and saying,
Oh, I understand you. Please buythis product. Please expand with
us. It's a true caring andunderstanding, and the ability
(39:04):
to get that information, digestit, make it make sense, put it
all together, is something thatwould historically take a very
long time for a person to domanually, but with all of these
innovative, innovative measuresthat are coming out. It makes it
so much easier to do that. Andtherefore, again, care about the
(39:25):
individual,
Erin Geiger (39:27):
yeah, and I think that's one of the main
differentiators, right? It'slike getting to the crux of that
story. Because so many people,they're like, oh, it's the same
thing. Like, this is what ourproduct is. This is the problem
the customer had. This is howthey applied the product. This
is the end result, you know, andit's like, okay,
Unknown (39:46):
exactly. Not effective, right? So, every like, every,
for example, every customer thatcomes like, again, I know how
the product works. I know wherewe can afford to make some. Um,
you know, customization versuswhat we cannot what we cannot
provide any flexibility on. Butat the end of the day, I my
(40:11):
guidance as a leader to the teamor to the customer, it really
doesn't mean anything if I don'tunderstand the business and each
customer and each person isgoing to be a little bit
different, right? So let meunderstand you, and understand
your business first, and yourneeds, what's important to you,
why you've come here, whatyou're looking to solve for what
you've tried in the past, whatworks right now, what doesn't.
(40:33):
And then how can that be appliedappropriately, to, say, our
technology or our processes, tomake it the most valuable for
you. And so you see the mostROI,
Erin Geiger (40:43):
yeah, yeah, for sure. So as you're kind of like
juggling this, you know, highpowered career, all the things
you're into in New York, all thethings you have going on, like,
Is there things you do in yourday to kind of keep you going
right? Like, some people workout, or they meditate, or they
whatever. You know, there's somany different things. Is there
anything that you do inparticular? Some people have
(41:06):
told me, No, I just get up and Istart my day. And that's fine,
too. Just curious.
Unknown (41:11):
No great question. And so I've built competitive story
strategies for the things thatdrain me. Some of that is the
just open, honest communicationthat we were talking about
earlier, and having thatunderstanding of your yourself
too, quite frankly, and beingable to communicate that
effectively. But there arethings that, again, in the work
(41:33):
day that just drain me. I knowthings that are thriving, that I
wake up excited to do I'm, firstof all, I am social, and I love
doing podcasts and having theseconversations like this is fun
for me. What's not fun is maybeall the admin work that I have
to do at the end of the week orthat needs to get done on a
Wednesday morning before I canattack my day, or the slide
(41:54):
decks that need to be presentedand put together and notes and
HubSpot and putting togethertraining material for my team
and all of those things. So Iknow you're not gonna be able to
see it in this podcast, butAaron behind me, you can see
that there is a big, giantmedicine ball. So when I have
things like that that I need todo, I know I'm going to be so
(42:17):
just unfocused if I don'treplace my chair with that
medicine ball, sit on it, put myheadphones in, place the music,
and just like power through thetask at hand. That's how I'm
going to be able to get throughthese kind of tedious, boring
admin things that don't exciteme, but they need to get done
(42:38):
right some way or another. Soscheduling the time in my
calendar and in my day for thosethings, and then doing quirky
little things like sitting on amedicine ball and into music and
bouncing like a weirdo in myhome office while I'm doing it
actually works really well.
Erin Geiger (42:55):
Yeah, no, I actually love that I know
because the the medicine ball,that's amazing, or that, you
know, the the ball. And thenI've seen that in classrooms
too. For my kid, it was like,some of the teachers will have
those, you know, around, and I'mlike, wow, it just makes such a
huge difference just to havethat the body in motion, you
know, I think that just helpsmove everything forward. Some
(43:17):
people have, like, the standingdesks, or the the walking paths,
like, you know, all the things,and
Unknown (43:21):
it's my next thing.
Yeah, that's, I think that'swhat I need next.
Erin Geiger (43:26):
It's, I think it's so true. Just like our bodies
need motion, they need movement,you know, and everything that we
do. So if people want to connectwith you, where's the best place
to find you online?
Unknown (43:41):
Well, you can come to my LinkedIn. Jordan Lee Lea,
that's gonna be the easiestplace to find me.
Erin Geiger (43:48):
Okay, awesome.
We'll put a link to that in theshow notes. And I always ask
this kind of fun question ofevery single guest, because I
love music. Oh no, I know if youcould listen to only one music
artist for the rest of yourlife. Who would it be?
Unknown (44:07):
That is a tough question, and I have a very
eclectic taste in music. Yeah,I'm gonna go with Abba. You
know, we're fun. We're Boppy. Ithas music for all kinds of
moods. I love it. That's also aa top go to of putting on my
headphones when I'm on mymedicine ball powering through
(44:29):
work.
Erin Geiger (44:30):
That's so cool. I love it. Okay, very cool. I
haven't listened to them in awhile. I need to, need to
Unknown (44:36):
crack that a bit reminder. You need to tap in,
breathe out, and then, yeah.
Erin Geiger (44:42):
Well, Jordan, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed
having you on in thisconversation, especially in the
world that we're living in now,I think that this is such, you
know, an important topic to, youknow, to tackle, you know, as
far as the people, thepeopleness of people, and. In
the workplace and everything sobut yeah, thank you so much for
(45:03):
taking the time. Superappreciate it.
Unknown (45:05):
Yeah, thank you so much, Aaron. I really appreciate
you having me on bye.
Hey everybody, welcome to the latest episode of
clover. Thank you for joining usthis week. We have Jordan Lee.
She is currently vice presidentcustomer experience at Plum.
Jordan and I, just disclosure,have worked together in the
past, so we're super excited toactually catch up and see each
other. I love this part ofrecording the podcast. I get to
(00:31):
connect with people so Jordan,thank you so much for taking the
time to chat today. Absolutely.
Unknown (00:37):
Aaron, it's great to see you and talk to you again,
and thank you for having me on
Erin Geiger (00:42):
for sure, you're one of my favorite people. You
know when we worked togetherbefore? So So I typically do
jump right in with these, and Iam always. I get enamored with
hearing people's stories like Ifeel like everybody has a story.
And I love to hear how peoplegot from point A to point B, how
they started out and how theygot to where they are today. So
(01:04):
if you would indulge me in thatand kind of tell us your story,
that would be amazing.
Unknown (01:09):
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm right there with you. I love
an origin story. I love hearingabout people and where they come
from, and you know how that allkind of transpired. It's just so
interesting. We've all had suchdifferent, such different
experiences and backgrounds, andit's fascinating to learn about
that kind of thing. But anyway,with that said, you know, while
(01:30):
I, as you know, I come from, youknow, small little town North
Carolina, dirt roads, cornfields, a leaky stoplight, that
sort of thing I've always had,and been very fortunate to have
a lot of you know, travel and myworld was big, a lot of
different experiences anddifferent places, different
people. So with that, my justbaseline personality. I love
(01:52):
adventure. I love adrenaline andgrowth and trying and learning
new things. I hate stagnancy,and that applies to my personal
life and my professional lifealike. But, you know, we really
think about, you know, whatmakes, what makes you thrive,
what makes somebody like happyin that? And for me, it's, it's
(02:13):
really, you know, who's along onthat journey with me too? And I
just, you know, I think that'swhere the people centric part
comes into place, and I'vealways been very kind of social
person in that regard. Maybe alittle different since covid
That certainly made me more ofan introvert. But yeah, it
really lended itself rather tothat switch from North Carolina
(02:37):
to my typical atmosphere tocoming to New York City and
working in the businesses andthe industries that I've worked
in,
Erin Geiger (02:45):
yeah, let's dive into that little bit. So where
did your career take you first?
Like, let's talk about thattrajectory of, kind of, like,
where you started and, you know,the path that led you to where
you are now, at Plum, yeah,
Unknown (02:59):
absolutely. So I moved to New York City, like a typical
cliche, to work in fashion. Idid for many years. I really
just honestly, I applied toanything and everything that I
possibly could in New York whilestill living in North Carolina.
(03:19):
So I would fly standby up onflights to have job interviews,
often with my luggage, mysuitcase in hand and telling
them I flew up just for thisinterview. And eventually I
landed a job, but it was reallyanything and everything in
fashion, right? I had no ideawhat I wanted to do. I went. I
(03:39):
had a degree in merchandisingand business and to try to
figure out make it work. And Ilanded, actually, at an unpaid
internship with a modelingagency during fashion week. But
to me to young Jordan, that wasmore than enough, and I broke at
the time, so I got a $2,500personal loan, moved myself up
(03:59):
to New York. My best friends. Wewere four years old. Had just
started medical school in thecity, so I crashed with her in
her dorm until I, you know, hadanother job that actually paid
me and could find an apartmentand do all of that. And then
again, I finally did. I got thisgreat opportunity at a fashion
(04:20):
technology startup where I wasemployee number five, and I got
the opportunity to wear as manyhats as humanly possible, which
I didn't know that I loved, butnow, obviously I do, came on
board as a customer successmanager, but really what that
transitioned into was everythingright. I was helping out on
(04:42):
sales calls and leads andonboarding and ongoing
management and anything andeverything, which then kind of
sparked the time that I spent infashion tech and those kinds of
SaaS based solutions. But thenwhat really made me trans. To
where I am today, though, is,you know, another cliche,
(05:04):
fashion is exactly what everyonetells you. It is, I realized I
loved it so much, but I didn'tlove working in it like I
thought I would. So I kind ofcame to this fork in the road
of, okay, well, if it's notfashion, then what is it that
I'm like? What is it that I'veenjoyed doing and thriving in
that I want to continue toexplore more? And it was that,
(05:28):
you know, like relationshipbuilding part, it was the
onboarding and the customermanagement and working in a
company and a SaaS solutionwhere I saw my impacts and how
they were or how they wereimpacting, rather the employer
that we're working with, ourcustomers, as well as the
organization as a whole. So itkind of clicked. And I really
(05:51):
realized that, you know, I likebuilding these things. I liked
this kind of environment, andokay, if it's not going to be in
fashion, then what's it going tobe in I had a good recruiter
friend that reached out to meabout an opportunity at bounty
jobs, where Aaron and I met, andit was HR technologies at a
fashion The interesting part isthat the business model was
(06:14):
exactly the same. So instead ofconnecting buyers and fashion
houses or designers and makingtheir relationship, the ordering
and all of that easier and morestreamlined, while also creating
a marketplace for them to expandtheir own businesses. Bounty
Jobs did that, but for thirdparty recruiters and employers
(06:36):
that had jobs to build sostreamline that process of them
working together created amarketplace for them to expand
their business. So it seems likea natural kind of fit. But then
I thought to myself, Okay, whatdo I know about HR? Though? Why
do I care about HR? Is thissomething I want to, you know,
give up attachment and jump intoand when I got to know bounty
(06:59):
jobs as a company more and theirwhy and what they were solving
for and the impact that they hadon customers and the industry.
That's really when it allflicked. So I realized it's
about seeing an alignmentbetween myself, what I care
about, the good in the world, ifyou will, and what the company
(07:19):
is doing to make an impact, andI kind of fell into this HR tech
world, and now it's been wellover a decade, and I never
thought I'd end up here, but I'mso happy to be here.
Erin Geiger (07:33):
Yeah, no, that's awesome, and it's a perfect fit
for you too, because you reallyare so personable, and you know
you really do look out for thebest interests of each and every
person like you're just sogenuine. So it's no mistake that
you fell into that industry,that's for sure. And so I love
(07:53):
that you moved to New York withnothing lined up. I did a very
similar thing moving to SanFrancisco. Like, no job. Like,
no. I was like, oh, we'll figureit out. So for those that are
listening, you know, they thereprobably are some listeners that
are, like, on the verge oftaking a jump, taking a plunge,
you know. So, like, what helpedyou kind of take that leap,
(08:18):
right? Of like, Oh, I'm justgonna go to New York, no job,
you know. I'm gonna, like, crashwith my friend, you know, and
see how this, this works out,like, because that could be
aligned with people's careers,right? They want to make a move
and want to make a jump, andthey're just like, Ugh, you
know, so kind of, what sort ofmindset were you in to do
something like that?
Unknown (08:37):
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, at that point in my life,
especially this was a long timeago. I was determined, I was
fearless, I was young, and Iknew that I wanted to be in New
York, and that was enough. I'llfigure out the rest when I get
there along the way, right? Buthaving the mindset, honestly, of
what's the worst that couldhappen? You know what? In my
(08:58):
specific scenario, I failmiserably, and I go back to
North Carolina and I regroup.
Who bears at least I tried, andwe learned from it, we grew from
it, and especially now so often.
And this is, I think, somethingthat women especially face is,
not only are we put in boxes,but then we'll put ourselves in
boxes too. So having theconfidence to break that down,
(09:22):
and, you know, allow yourself totry new things or to take a
risk, and whether that's at yourown organization or, you know,
just venturing out and taking aclass in something that
interests you, or going to thatnetworking meetup alone that
gives you So many nerves, youknow, just try it. Nobody's
(09:42):
perfect. That's, I think, a bigthing that I had to learn is
that we're all just out heredoing our best, and there's no
harm trying. And just have toget out there and do it, and you
figure it out for yourself. It'snot about the judgment of others
or others perceptions.
Erin Geiger (09:58):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And I think that can be appliedto working in a startup
environment, right? So when yousaid you were like, employee
number five, and it is so true,like, I've worked in so many
startups, and it's like, yes,you have the role that you were
hired for, but that's not youronly role. It's whatever needs
to be done. So you know, andgetting into the startup world
(10:21):
early on in your career. I mean,I think it's a huge benefit. I,
you know, I had a, you know,it's kind of a same kind of a
parallel sort of growthtrajectory in that, you know, I
got involved in startups very,very early on. So how did that
kind of impact you for the restof your career, as far as, like,
(10:41):
leadership and, you know,resilience as you kind of move
forward, because you did switch,right? You know, industries are
focused that sort of a thing.
So, so working in a startup andkind of, like wearing every hat,
you know, how has that impactedyou along along the way? Yeah, I
Unknown (11:00):
think for me, and especially I love the word that
you use resilience, like, in myeyes, there's just no way around
it right in this job that I wasin in this city, like you just
have to keep going, like, that'sjust a fact, and adapt and take
whatever comes and to yourearlier point, there's no room
for a well, this is not My job,so I can't help with that
(11:22):
attitude. It always needs to bea give me whatever you can throw
at me. Of course, within reason,we don't want to over overwork
people and things like that, butgive me whatever you got. These
are growth and learningopportunities, and that's
exactly what they were. So forme, not only did I learn so much
tangibly, but I learned aboutdifferent roles within an
(11:42):
organization, and it allows youto branch out into these areas
that you might not otherwise,and then provides a little more
insight and focus. You know, Igot to then learn more what I
wanted to explore, career wise,and now as a leader, understand
much better of how to share, butothers in that same or a similar
(12:03):
process,
Erin Geiger (12:03):
yeah, and it's all about having that open mind,
right? Because, like, you comein as something like, Okay, I'm
going to do this function, youknow, but then, like, to your
point, you get to see what elseis going on in the company and
what you might be interested in.
So honestly, I'm kind of likerecommending people start at a
startup at the beginning oftheir career. Absolutely, it's
(12:24):
such a great way to see what allis out there. And, you know, and
what you know, it's a good testbed, you know, because it is a
little bit easier to move aroundto, you know, like, oh, maybe
I'll start in talentacquisition, and then I'll move
over to product, or I'll moveover to sale, you know, and kind
of, like, see what, see what's,what fits you. And so you've,
(12:46):
kind of, it seems like eachplace that you've worked has
gone through really rapidgrowth, right? So you've worked
startups, you've been throughacquisitions. So, you know, talk
a little bit about that, like,because you've had to scale
teams and people like whileyou're helping to scale a
company. And so what talk alittle bit about that? And you
(13:08):
know how, how you're able to dothat, because, because of the
nature of your work, you areworking come with people and
nurturing their career, youknow, that sort of a thing. And
so how have you applied that?
Unknown (13:25):
Yeah, so two things stick out immediately. One is
treating humans like humans,right, understanding the person
behind the work, and making surethat they are supported in a way
that they need to be successful,and make sure that they know
that they have a voice. Youknow, it sets nobody for success
if something is just forced uponthem or shoved down their throat
and are told just to deal withit. And quite frankly, that goes
(13:47):
for employees and organizationsand how I work with customers
alike, but as a leader, forexample, you know, I know what
the job needs. I know theproject isn't these things, like
inside and out, but things arenot things and people are not a
one size fits all, so you needto use that deep understanding
(14:08):
to customize certaininteractions or processes or
things like that for whateverthe person in the situation is,
while Also not compromising theintegrity of the product. Yeah.
Erin Geiger (14:22):
No, that makes a lot of sense. And so, and it's
all about kind of create you Iwould imagine you would have a
big part in creating culturearound, you know, like, where
you're you're working. So what,you know, I always hear people
talk about, like, how culture isso important, and we got to
build great culture. And, youknow, it's like, culture,
(14:44):
culture, culture. And it's likeso many buzzword right now,
right? Exactly. So many timespeople are just like, they say
it, and then there's no actionbehind it. So it's like, what
have you done, or what have youseen? Especially now, right?
There's so much change going onin the world. Place like that
actually helps people build theculture that they want in their
(15:07):
workforce and have it actuallystick like, what have you seen
work in that
Unknown (15:12):
absolutely. And it can be tricky, right? Because you're
hitting certain metrics, and youcan say, Okay, I made this sale,
or I hit this number, or Iachieved X, Y and Z, but culture
is so much more subjective anddifferent for different people,
and there's so many layers toit. And as we're humans, we're
all different, and there's somuch to consider here from the
(15:34):
human side, from the businessside. So when I boil it all
down, what really helps buildthat the most for me is things
like trust and authenticity,psychological safety, you know,
consistently showing up forothers and for yourself, and it
goes every which way. You know,it's very much a two lane road
(15:55):
or multi line, mostly Laneinterstate, excuse me, yeah. So
for example, you know my team,they know what my personal
dreamers are. They know thethings that I might skip over or
I might struggle to do as wellwhen I'm burnt out or I'm extra
busy, and I've given them theautonomy to straight up tell me
(16:15):
when I'm failing at thosethings, or if I'm not giving
them all that they need to besuccessful, to be comfortable,
whatever it is. And then I'lltie it back to, you know what I
said at the top of this questionabout trust and authenticity and
psychological safety. Becausewithout those things, you're not
going to be able to build a goodculture. You're not going to be
able to take risks. People aregoing to trust not just you, but
(16:38):
the organization also. Yeah,
Erin Geiger (16:40):
and they're going to kind of hold things very
close to the vest, right? Andso, and not speak about things,
even if it's like an innovativeidea, or, on the flip side,
something negative that they'reseeing going on in the company,
you know? And so it's kind oflike, it kind of breeds, like
non communication, really, anddistrust to your point. And so I
(17:06):
you know, as you're speakinglike, I can't help but notice
like you have you've changedthrough, went through a few
different industries, right? Andso it's like fashion recruiting,
tech, HR, tech, that sort of athing. So again, I'm seeing that
pattern of like, let's go, let'stry it, let's do it. You know,
it's such a love. So it's like,for how do you approach that?
(17:28):
Like, you basically learn newindustries. I mean, I'm sure
there's overlap betweenrecruiting tech and HR tech, you
know, and that that sort of athing. But it's like, you know,
for those that are just like, Iwant to especially now, because
the employment market is alittle crazy. And I personally
know a lot of people who areswitching careers, right,
because they either they can'tget a certain level role in
(17:51):
their career, or they're like,maybe this is the time for me to
make a move. And so like, whatdo you say? Like, how do you
approach that? Like, learning anew industry from scratch, kind
of like jumping into somethingnew. Career wise, like you did
it personally, going to NewYork, and then career wise,
like, you know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Unknown (18:10):
I think he just, you cannot be afraid to jump in and
get your hands dirty. And it'salmost easier now than it was,
you know, like for me 15 yearsago, with all the things and
technology and visibility thatwe have available to us, there's
so many different ways that youcan educate yourself or dive
(18:32):
into another area of thebusiness, another another
industry altogether, and there'sso much that you can do to help
yourself in that way. Obviously,community is also incredibly
important. I wouldn't be where Iam without the connections that
I've made both, you know,personally, professionally. I
(18:52):
mean, I'm on this podcast rightnow, but you Aaron, because of
that, we you know, so importantto find people that you know,
good mentors, support systemsand again, just the
fearlessness, like just take aleap, try it, do it, and if your
company is not affording youthat opportunity right now,
(19:13):
there are other ways that youcan gain at least that education
yourself.
Erin Geiger (19:17):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And I always feel like if adesire is placed on your heart,
it's there for a reason, right?
And so, to your point, it'slike, find people in that area,
like, be it like a mentor or,you know, just someone that has
an area is their area ofexpertise, you know, because so
many people like, they want tohelp, and they want to answer
(19:38):
your questions and that sort ofa thing. So even if it's like,
totally different, opposite thanfrom what you've been doing,
yeah, I love, I love yourthought of like, find those
people. There are people withinthat area, that that topic area,
that can really give you thatinfo and also give you the info,
so that maybe you're like, No,actually, that's not for me.
(19:58):
Just kidding, you know. And.
Need to go in a differentdirection.
Unknown (20:02):
So coming to those conversations, not just say,
like, I'm interested inmarketing, tell me about it,
right? But this has been myexperience. This has been what
I've perhaps been afforded. Thisis the research I did. This is
what I understand. This is whatI still like to know. You know,
I don't know what I don't know.
So coming forward with, youknow, your own research and
ideas, and not as, like thatkind of blank slate of of
(20:26):
expecting somebody to just teachyou. It's really about
collaboration, right? Neverexpected to get fully all the
way there by yourself, but, youknow, it's a push pull.
Erin Geiger (20:40):
Yeah, no, exactly.
And so on that tangent. So whenyou are considering a new
opportunity, right? Like, maybeyou're going to jump to a new
company, or, you know, just anew role, how do you evaluate
that, right? How do you kind ofmake that decision whether it
fits you or not? Because I lovethat you've you've said before,
it's like, you know the missionof bounty jobs, right? And so,
(21:02):
and it's like that missionmatched your values, and you're
like, let's go. And so, like,what do you kind of use when
you're evaluating newopportunities in your career
that kind of give you the go, nogo as you move along?
Unknown (21:15):
Yeah, absolutely. So there is a lot of professional
evaluation that goes into it, ofcourse, right, like what
directions you want to go,things you want to learn, and
things like that. But I thinktoo often people also misplace
or put on the back burner thepersonal considerations. I've
had opportunities come up whereeverything looked amazing on
(21:40):
paper, but it wasn't the righttime for me, at that moment in
my life, because of whatever wasgoing on, or, you know, anything
at the time. So really, Iencourage people to look at the
full picture, because if you'renot setting yourself up for
success, excuse me, and askingall the questions and getting
the full scope of things. Then,you know, it's, again, you're
(22:03):
just not setting yourself up forsuccess there. And there's so
many different things. We'rehumans at the end of the day, I
know I keep saying that, no, but
Erin Geiger (22:10):
it's so true, and it's, you're right. There's so
many dynamics to look at. It'snot just the salary, the
benefits, you know, thestability of the company, you
know, that sort of a thing. It'slike, this is your life. You
spend more time at work than youdo otherwise, you know. And so,
to your point, it's like, yeah,looking at the big picture of
like, okay, is this company?
Like, are the values match mine?
(22:32):
Is it something that's at leastpartially of interest, you know,
to what I want to do is, youknow? And does it work with my
lifestyle? Does it? You know?
Does it give me enough time withmy family? You know, all of
those things should ideally. Imean, it's sort of like a
privilege, right? When you cansay yes or no to a job based
upon, oh, it doesn't fit myschedule, there's, there's some
(22:55):
times when that doesn't right,and it's, you have to be
realistic, and it's like, I needthe salary right now, you know?
And that's kind of another wayto look at it too, right? Some
jobs are like a bridge tosomething else. It's just your
thing for right now. And I, andI think, you know, I encourage
people to kind of look at itthat way too, of like, sometimes
it's not the ideal situation,but it's okay for right now. And
(23:16):
it's like a little bridge towhat's next. You know what I
mean?
Unknown (23:22):
100% Yeah. And that's what I mean by, you know, it's
also a personal evaluation and apersonal choice. Sometimes you
have the luxury, sometimes youdon't, right?
Erin Geiger (23:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I mentioned
earlier how you are sopersonable and like you're so
you have high level of empathy,which I love. And you, you did
mention like I am so I'm openwith my team. Like, look, I
excel in these things and thesethings, not so much. Call me out
on it. Let's collaborate. Andthe same with your team. They're
(23:52):
great at some things that somethings, that's so as a leader,
how do you kind of, like balancethat you're like, so driven, but
then you also, I think it's abeautiful combination of, like,
this high level of ambition anddrive, but then you're also have
a level of empathy andhumanness, so, and I think a lot
(24:13):
of leaders aspire to that. Sotalk a little bit about that.
You know, as you kind of balanceall that, as you're leading your
team,
Unknown (24:20):
absolutely so you're right. My mentality is, go, go,
go. Never let it settle, alwayskeep moving. Yeah, and I do have
deep empathy for those aroundme, but at the same time, I can
very much lack empathy formyself, and that can create
shortcomings in those around meand how I could be making them
feel right. So as as I'vedeveloped into leadership
(24:43):
positions and things of thatnature, I frankly, spent a lot
of time and effort into slowingmyself down and listen. It
beneficial for me too. Mytherapist love that I'm doing
this, being able to appreciatewhat I have accomplished and
what I have in the morning.
Moment and not just always belooking forward, but making sure
that I'm also giving thatsupport, the kudos, the high
(25:04):
fives to my teams, to crossdepartmental teams, instead of
just saying, you know, okay,good job. What's next? Because
it's all you know that maybethat's all I personally need in
the moment, but it's not fair tosay that's what all everyone
else needs, or that's notimportant to say that and do
more of appreciating the momentthat you're in and what you've
(25:27):
just accomplished.
Erin Geiger (25:30):
Yeah, so looking at each person on your team as
their own person, and like, whatmotivates them, right? And like,
what, what do they individuallyneed to move forward. Yeah, I
get that. And so a lot of timeswe are given these, like, KPIs
(25:50):
and these, like, mess, you know,like, it's like, here's the
growth metric. This is whatwe're hitting this quarter, like
this, you know? And it's like,okay, great, you know. But it's
like, you also, like we weretalking about, need to say
people centered, and so, but youhave this business pressure, but
then you have the people. And sohow do you marry the two, you
(26:11):
know, like these goals and thesequotas and these numbers, but
then you're, you're leading thisteam. And so how have you, kind
of, like, crossed that hump? AndI know it's like, it's always a
challenge, right? You know? Andit's like, we have to hit these
things, but then also, these arepeople with lives and things
going on, you know? And so howdo you kind of merge the two?
Unknown (26:30):
Yeah, so, I mean, at the end of the day, those are,
we're on a revenue team, right?
We're part of the revenue sideof the business, so we have to
hit those numbers in order forthe lights to stay on. There's
no two ways about it. But if wetake it back to the whole trust
and authenticity and consistencyand psychological psychological
safety part of it, you know thatalso it allows you to have fun
(26:52):
in it too. It's not always sorigid, and there are things that
we can control or influence, andthere's things that we can't but
if we have the right people inthe right roles at the right
time, and we have thatpsychological safety and trust,
then we're enjoying what we'redoing. We're enjoying doing it
together. And therefore it'sgoing to be easier to
(27:14):
strategize, to proactively actinstead of only reactively, and
know that at the end of the day,whatever those ROI outcomes are,
the KPIs outcomes, that we'vegone all out and we've left it
on the table, and we'veaccomplished everything that you
know you humanly possibly could.
(27:38):
And that's, that's a great team,yeah.
Erin Geiger (27:41):
And it's, you know, it's, it's everybody in
lockstep, linking arms, goingafter a common goal together,
you know? And I think that somany times that the issue is
like people just like, aresiloed. And, you know, that's
that makes it tough, right, tomove forward. So really, really
does, yeah. And then would yousay it's kind of similar, like,
(28:03):
when you're looking at thecompany level, right? So we've
been talking a lot about, like,being a leader of a team within
an organization, and so when youlook at like company wide, would
you say it's kind of similar,like, seeing the potential and
people like, I, I had thismanager once in my career, and
there was someone on our teamwho I was like, Oh, they're they
(28:26):
need some help. They need somesupport. And this manager saw it
and but they were so great thatthey were like, yes, but this
person has the interest and thedrive to learn. So I am going to
support this person intobecoming like, you know, kind of
(28:47):
like growing into the role thatthey are currently in. It'd be
very easy to manage this personout, right, but instead they
were like, but no, we see thisperson is trying and they're
interested, and we do see thatthere is potential there. So
it's like, you know, how cancompanies get better at that?
(29:08):
You know, it's like seeing thepotential and the people, you
know, rather than just a numberon a sheet kind of a thing,
Unknown (29:17):
yeah, that is it's hard to do, right? And I talk a lot
about that too, using the termslike skill and will. So somebody
that doesn't have the skill, butthey have the will and the
desire to go and try this orlearn this, that's great, like,
we can work with that, right?
There's other versions of itthat don't lead itself to being
as like, forward moving, butthat was one of the things that
(29:41):
I really loved about plum, mycurrent company, when I found
this opportunity. It's about,again, understanding the person
behind the work and really nottrying to pigeonhole because of,
you know, this is what I do.
This is how I do it. This iswhat the company. Does. It's
like, take let's take a stepback. Let's mentor and have
(30:04):
conversations and understandwhere this other person is
coming from. Because, justbecause they're approaching
something differently, orthey're not seeing the same
results that you are, or youknow, there's any sort of
conflict there, it doesn't meanthat it's being done wrong. This
is an opportunity to understandthat person, and again, how they
approach the work and theirthought process, and therefore
(30:28):
how you can best support them,
Erin Geiger (30:31):
right, exactly. And I love that skill, skill and
will that's actually prettyperfect. So there are listeners,
and you know, most of our ouraudience are women, so who, you
know you mentioned earlier inthe conversation, like,
sometimes we box ourselves in,sometimes we're we're put in a
box, right? So for those womenlistening who who are feeling
(30:55):
maybe underestimated or they'reboxed in by their current roles,
but they have the skill and thewill and they have the ambition,
and they're like, this is notwhere I should be, you know. So
what advice would you give them,you know, about, like, really,
kind of advocating for theirtheir own potential and their in
their own future? Because, as wespoke about earlier, it's like,
if you don't make the movesyourself, like, it's pretty rare
(31:18):
situation where someone's goingto come to you tap you in the
shoulder and be like, Hey, I seeyou. I see your potential. You
should be up over here. Come on,you know. And it's like you
gotta stick up for yourself andmake your your own moves. So
what advice do you have forthose that are dealing with that
right now?
Unknown (31:34):
Yeah, so being proactive, right? Just goes back
to what we were talking aboutearlier. And if you're
interested in something, then doyour own research and
understanding. And you know youthere's so many tools out there
now for you to help yourself inthat, and then also finding
community and network. So it'skind of the same idea as far as
(31:55):
that's concerned, right? Like,don't be afraid to take a leap.
Don't be afraid to put yourselfout there. There is no growth in
comfortability. And it's not afailure, it's just a learning
opportunity, right? Like yousaid before, maybe you will go
into something different orlearn about something, and you
thought you were going to bereally passionate about it, and
(32:15):
now you realize that you'reactually not interested in this
at all. You want to leave it inthe dust, and that's totally
fine, but it's, I think aboutjust taking the leap, and, you
know, having the confidence inyourself, and, you know, not
being afraid to kind of put itout there, yeah.
Erin Geiger (32:33):
And some companies have, like, mentorship, you
know, opportunities, right? Andso it's kind of connecting into
that, like talking to someoneyou know in a totally different
realm, if that's what you'reinterested in, if your company
doesn't have that, like, to yourpoint, it's like you can find
people and message them at yourcompany within another industry,
(32:56):
what have you. And so I'mcurious. Like, so you're in, you
know, the HR world, like, what,how has it changed? Like, and
what challenges, I mean, you'vebeen through covid After covid,
like, the whole thing. Whatchanges have you seen in HR?
Like, what challenges do you seenow that got the kind of impact
in that industry and what you'rewhat you're dealing with?
Unknown (33:19):
Yeah, there's been so many changes. Throughout the
last decade and a half. Oh mygosh. And it was, honestly, it's
interesting how similar it wasin fashion and fashion tech and
HR tech too. If we want to stripit all down at the core, these
are industries and businessesthat have been around for years
(33:40):
and decades and so long. So whenour companies in that space or
industries is really easy tofall into the well, this is just
how we've always done it stuckway of a place, right? And
therefore the innovation andimproving processes and things
like that and just be a harderLift There's, there's so much to
(34:04):
like the DE and I initiatives ornon initiatives. Now,
unfortunately, um, there's alsoso much change in the jobs and
the workforce and the skillsthat are needed, right? So the
half life of certain skills.
That used to be five years. Thenit went down to two, and now
we're looking at six months insome areas. You know, it doesn't
(34:25):
matter that you could codePython anymore. Now I don't want
you to learn this new thing, andit's almost less about the
skills and the knowledge andwhat you know, and more about
your own talents, your ownadaptation, your own resilience
and ability to move as quicklywith these changes and again,
(34:46):
learn and adapt as needed,because right now, it's moving
at such an unprecedentedly fastpace, it can be hard to keep up.
Erin Geiger (34:59):
Yeah. Right, for sure, and it's like, how is, how
is AI impacted what you do,absolutely.
Unknown (35:07):
So that's the hard thing with customer success,
right? Because it's so personal,and we're with our customers day
in and day out, and what worksfor one maybe doesn't work for
the other. And what really setsa lot of customer experience
teams apart is that, you know,personal relationship and
understanding of one another,but at the same time, there are
(35:30):
so many, as long as we're, youknow, open to it, and we need to
learn about it and take thoseleaps. Right so many ways that
AI can help to streamlineprocesses, to make things more
efficient, not just for thecustomer, customers, but for the
CX teams themselves, and thatthen allows you, and frees up
you as a person of your time tomake those, make sure that
(35:51):
those, those personalconnections don't slip. But
there's just, there's so manyopportunities to be able to make
things just work better, morestreamlined, faster, more
intuitively, so that you canspend more time on, you know,
again, the people and therelationships and the growth and
(36:12):
exploring other areas forfurther innovation.
Erin Geiger (36:16):
Yeah, that's the thing with customer experience,
because the, I mean, the personis at the focus point, you know,
like and what you do so much,you know, more than so many
other industries. And so it'slike leveraging AI as a tool
like you said to, you know, giveyou more time to give that
(36:37):
personal touch on the themoments that really matter.
Right on the issues that reallymatter, yeah,
Unknown (36:44):
not about automating the whole customer experience
process. It's about, you know,making, like you said, making
the time so that, as forexample, you scale as an
organization, you scale in yourown job, your own career, that
you then have the time to do allof those other things that you
(37:04):
want to do and build and growand innovate, because doing
things you know, how you didthem last year versus how you're
doing them now, it's not goingto fit anymore. You need to give
yourself that time back. Andthat's a lot of where AI comes
in.
Erin Geiger (37:18):
Yeah, what excites you as you look forward, you
know, like when you look forwardin your career, in general, and
then also, like in customerexperience, like, what are you
most, you know, excited orpassionate about for what's to
come?
Unknown (37:34):
I, especially when we're talking about, you know,
AI, right? And then affordingit, affording us as individual,
myself, as a leader, to thendive deeper into other areas of
the business and focus on otherthings, and you know, myself and
growth in the company, all youknow, all which ways, that's
(37:55):
what really excites me. BecauseI always feel like there's so
much more that can be done. Youknow, I'm very big on again,
acting proactively rather thanreactively. That's how you're
going to get the bestexperience, how you get this
result, especially in CX. But wedon't always have the time for
that, so using AI, not only togive us time back, but then to
(38:18):
help us to maybe gather customerinformation, to weave stories
together more purposefully, tohelp us tell these stories and
make an impact to our customersas we're speaking to them, to
prospects, as you know we'reworking the sales on that side
of things, and being able tomake it so much more personal
(38:42):
and and specific for that personand that client, that customer.
That's what's getting sopowerful. And it's not about
just, you know, puttingsomething together and saying,
Oh, I understand you. Please buythis product. Please expand with
us. It's a true caring andunderstanding, and the ability
(39:04):
to get that information, digestit, make it make sense, put it
all together, is something thatwould historically take a very
long time for a person to domanually, but with all of these
innovative, innovative measuresthat are coming out. It makes it
so much easier to do that. Andtherefore, again, care about the
(39:25):
individual,
Erin Geiger (39:27):
yeah, and I think that's one of the main
differentiators, right? It'slike getting to the crux of that
story. Because so many people,they're like, oh, it's the same
thing. Like, this is what ourproduct is. This is the problem
the customer had. This is howthey applied the product. This
is the end result, you know, andit's like, okay,
Unknown (39:46):
exactly. Not effective, right? So, every like, every,
for example, every customer thatcomes like, again, I know how
the product works. I know wherewe can afford to make some. Um,
you know, customization versuswhat we cannot what we cannot
provide any flexibility on. Butat the end of the day, I my
(40:11):
guidance as a leader to the teamor to the customer, it really
doesn't mean anything if I don'tunderstand the business and each
customer and each person isgoing to be a little bit
different, right? So let meunderstand you, and understand
your business first, and yourneeds, what's important to you,
why you've come here, whatyou're looking to solve for what
you've tried in the past, whatworks right now, what doesn't.
(40:33):
And then how can that be appliedappropriately, to, say, our
technology or our processes, tomake it the most valuable for
you. And so you see the mostROI,
Erin Geiger (40:43):
yeah, yeah, for sure. So as you're kind of like
juggling this, you know, highpowered career, all the things
you're into in New York, all thethings you have going on, like,
Is there things you do in yourday to kind of keep you going
right? Like, some people workout, or they meditate, or they
whatever. You know, there's somany different things. Is there
anything that you do inparticular? Some people have
(41:06):
told me, No, I just get up and Istart my day. And that's fine,
too. Just curious.
Unknown (41:11):
No great question. And so I've built competitive story
strategies for the things thatdrain me. Some of that is the
just open, honest communicationthat we were talking about
earlier, and having thatunderstanding of your yourself
too, quite frankly, and beingable to communicate that
effectively. But there arethings that, again, in the work
(41:33):
day that just drain me. I knowthings that are thriving, that I
wake up excited to do I'm, firstof all, I am social, and I love
doing podcasts and having theseconversations like this is fun
for me. What's not fun is maybeall the admin work that I have
to do at the end of the week orthat needs to get done on a
Wednesday morning before I canattack my day, or the slide
(41:54):
decks that need to be presentedand put together and notes and
HubSpot and putting togethertraining material for my team
and all of those things. So Iknow you're not gonna be able to
see it in this podcast, butAaron behind me, you can see
that there is a big, giantmedicine ball. So when I have
things like that that I need todo, I know I'm going to be so
(42:17):
just unfocused if I don'treplace my chair with that
medicine ball, sit on it, put myheadphones in, place the music,
and just like power through thetask at hand. That's how I'm
going to be able to get throughthese kind of tedious, boring
admin things that don't exciteme, but they need to get done
(42:38):
right some way or another. Soscheduling the time in my
calendar and in my day for thosethings, and then doing quirky
little things like sitting on amedicine ball and into music and
bouncing like a weirdo in myhome office while I'm doing it
actually works really well.
Erin Geiger (42:55):
Yeah, no, I actually love that I know
because the the medicine ball,that's amazing, or that, you
know, the the ball. And thenI've seen that in classrooms
too. For my kid, it was like,some of the teachers will have
those, you know, around, and I'mlike, wow, it just makes such a
huge difference just to havethat the body in motion, you
know, I think that just helpsmove everything forward. Some
(43:17):
people have, like, the standingdesks, or the the walking paths,
like, you know, all the things,and
Unknown (43:21):
it's my next thing.
Yeah, that's, I think that'swhat I need next.
Erin Geiger (43:26):
It's, I think it's so true. Just like our bodies
need motion, they need movement,you know, and everything that we
do. So if people want to connectwith you, where's the best place
to find you online?
Unknown (43:41):
Well, you can come to my LinkedIn. Jordan Lee Lea,
that's gonna be the easiestplace to find me.
Erin Geiger (43:48):
Okay, awesome.
We'll put a link to that in theshow notes. And I always ask
this kind of fun question ofevery single guest, because I
love music. Oh no, I know if youcould listen to only one music
artist for the rest of yourlife. Who would it be?
Unknown (44:07):
That is a tough question, and I have a very
eclectic taste in music. Yeah,I'm gonna go with Abba. You
know, we're fun. We're Boppy. Ithas music for all kinds of
moods. I love it. That's also aa top go to of putting on my
headphones when I'm on mymedicine ball powering through
(44:29):
work.
Erin Geiger (44:30):
That's so cool. I love it. Okay, very cool. I
haven't listened to them in awhile. I need to, need to
Unknown (44:36):
crack that a bit reminder. You need to tap in,
breathe out, and then, yeah.
Erin Geiger (44:42):
Well, Jordan, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed
having you on in thisconversation, especially in the
world that we're living in now,I think that this is such, you
know, an important topic to, youknow, to tackle, you know, as
far as the people, thepeopleness of people, and. In
the workplace and everything sobut yeah, thank you so much for
(45:03):
taking the time. Superappreciate it.
Unknown (45:05):
Yeah, thank you so much, Aaron. I really appreciate
you having me on bye.
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