August 19, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of The Coaching Minds Podcast, we flip the script on performance by focusing on the other 12 hours of the day—rest and recovery. Ben Carnes sits down with Lori Oliver and Jill MacRae, co-founders of The Inactive Company and creators of the Inactivator Sleep Mask, to explore the science of sleep and why most people are doing it wrong.
With powerhouse careers at Spanx, Coca-Cola, and Starbucks, Lori and Jill know what it’s like to push limits—and what it costs when rest is ignored. They share research-backed strategies, from small weekly sleep tweaks to blackout environments, and explain why better sleep can unlock creativity, decision-making, and game-day performance.
If you’re a coach, athlete, or high-performer who wants to recover faster, think sharper, and win more, this conversation will change the way you think about rest.
Highlights:
- Why elite athletes and teams are making sleep a top priority
- The Sleep 7 Playbook: small changes that make a big impact
- How blackout & temperature regulation can transform recovery
- Why “sleep is a workout” is the message every teenager needs to hear
- Tools for coaches to integrate sleep into performance culture
Resources Mentioned:
- The Inactive Company: inactiveco.com
- Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker: amzn.to/4lsqDKy
🎧 Listen now: mentaltrainingplan.com/podcast
Are you an ATHLETE looking to take your training to the next level? Check out our website to learn more about 1-on-1 training opportunities:
mentaltrainingplan.com/athletes
Are you a COACH looking for an affordable year-round mental performance training program? Check out the MTP Academy available through our website:
mentaltrainingplan.com/teams
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the Coaching Minds podcast, the
official podcast of MentalTraining Plan.
Today's episode is all aboutperformance, but not in the way
that you might expect.
We're talking about recovery,rest and the science of sleep.
I'm joined by Lori Oliver andJill McRae, co-founders of the
Inactive Company.
These two have spent decadesexperiencing building
(00:23):
powerhouses like Spanx,coca-cola, starbucks, and now
they're on a mission to helppeople sleep better, perform
better and feel better.
We're going to unpack whatactually works when it comes to
sleep, why most people are doingit wrong and how their product,
the Inactivator Sleep Mask, ischanging the game.
(00:44):
Lori and Jill, welcome to theshow.
Appreciate you guys joining ustoday.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you, Ben, for having us.
We really appreciate you havingus today.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So I'm not going to lie.
I get.
I get emails all the time frompromoters that are trying to get
you know so and so to come be aguest on the show.
I delete most of them.
I was intrigued by this and Iwould say that sleep is kind of.
Sleep is one of those areas thatin that little corner right
(01:14):
over there on my whiteboard,we've got a little section of,
like, future things that we'regoing to be exploring.
Sleep, nutrition and hydrationare over there and and and I've
got I've got this book that Ishowed you when we were talking
at the beginning uh, why wesleep, unlocking the power of
sleep and dreams.
(01:34):
And I had one of my formerathletes, who was a pitcher at
Ohio state university, called meone day, all excited, and he
was like Coach Carnes, you'vegot to get this book.
And I'm telling you he was hewas legitimately pumped about it
, like he had just found thisway to unlock some kind of
(01:56):
competitive edge.
So, ladies, I would love tojust kind of hear you know,
maybe a quickly, briefly, alittle bit about your story and
how the heck you kind of hearyou know, maybe a quickly,
briefly, a little bit about yourstory and how the heck you kind
of got into this field andwhere we're at now.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Before we tell you that, I just need to say that we
call that book why we Sleep theBible and Matt Walker.
We were just with him at aglobal sleep symposium last
month in New York, along withsome other sleep experts, and it
is a tremendous resource, so wevalidate the book even though
(02:33):
it's not ours, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So Lori and I met.
We actually spent we mentionedearlier we spent about 25 years
building powerhouse careers andyou know we grew up
professionally in the about 25years building powerhouse
careers and you know we grew upprofessionally in the nineties
which was basically sleep whenyou're dead and you know,
outperforming everybody,outperforming each other.
Don't worry about rest.
You were sort of you know kindof a pansy, if you said that you
were ever tired.
Plus, we're moms between us,with different partners.
(03:01):
We have seven kids, you know,ranging in ages super active.
We're both into fitness and wealso bonded over SEC football
because we went to theUniversity of Georgia.
So we were constantly on the goand while we were on the
leadership team at Spanx we weretraveling literally around the
globe and we were exhausted allthe time, tried everything you
name it melatonin, gummies, wetried to outbuy each other on
(03:25):
mattresses and pillows andreally realized that sleep was
like that, one elusive thingthat we could never perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
The irony there was that we're both athletes and
we're both health nuts, and soyou know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I'm not an athlete.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, you are, yes, you are Jill's an Alta tennis
champion.
But we, but despite, you know,having hard workouts, we would
still exhaust ourselves and thennot get proper rest at night.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
For a multitude of reasons.
Right, everybody has their ownreason why they don't sleep well
.
It could be stress, it could behormones, it could be age, it
could be diet, it could bewhatever it is.
But you really, we figured outreally quickly that that was a
game changer for us personally.
And then, when we started toresearch it and talk about it,
we realized it really is a keyfactor in performance and your
(04:15):
body.
You know everyone talks aboutrest and get a lot of sleep, but
the truth of the matter is yourbody's working just as hard
sometimes almost harder whenyou're sleeping for you than
when you're awake.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Which is why we named the company the Inactive
Company, because we reallywanted to preach this message of
the other.
12 hours of the day are asimportant, if not more important
, than your active part of theday.
Just because you're sleepingdoesn't mean your body isn't
working hard.
It actually is and you have anopportunity If you sleep.
(04:48):
The recommended for athletes itreally is eight to nine, eight
to 10 hours.
For us, regular humans, sevento nine.
But if you do get good sleep,quality sleep, every day, you
are increasing your performance,your creativity, your decision
making and lots of other factorsthe very next day.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Also, people can really relate to technology
these days because we basicallylive on technology.
So the inactive company is anod to the fact that you really
have to power down to power backup, reboot sense.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, that's fair.
So you know, I'm not going tolie.
Just in my profession, comingfrom the coaching world, before
you know, before stepping out todo the mental performance
training full time, two o'clockin the morning, breaking down
(05:42):
film and to send notes, and it'slike, oh, he's more dedicated
than me.
How come, why was I asleep whenI could have been watching film
and I could have been gettingan edge on my opponent and I,
you know all of these things inyour mind, like where, where did
that, where did thatmisconception come from?
Was it, was it just a lack ofknowledge?
(06:03):
Was it a trying to gain an edge?
And it just got out of hand.
Like, why is there such a wrongmindset when it comes to rest
and recovery, especially, likeyou said, even more so, like,
with high performing careers?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
There's been a rat race culture for decades and we
are just now beginning torealize and we like to say wake
up to the fact that that is notthe magic formula.
There's been research that hasshown that if you watch film,
for example, and then get yourrecommended good quality sleep,
(06:46):
you'll actually know and processthe content of those films
better than had you stayed upand crammed and watched all
night long.
So you know, I think we'refinally just we've sort of been
waiting for this movement.
But the movement is slowlyhappening where people are
realizing I feel like crap if Idon't get enough sleep.
(07:09):
Why was I slower today?
I know I can do better.
Why did I make that dumbmistake on the field?
I know what I'm supposed to do.
I know my body can do that.
Why aren't I getting strongerwhen I'm lifting so many weights
?
Well, the answers to thosequestions are you're not getting
(07:30):
enough sleep, because sleep iswhat helps your muscles
regenerate.
It helps your brain make theconnections it needs to make to
have creativity when you'reawake and on the field, you know
.
So I think people do realize Idon't have to feel this badly
when I'm awake If I use thenighttime to really do my second
(07:52):
workout.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
There have been some eye openers, just like we have
more research now on CTE andwhat's happening with brain
injury.
American Heart Associationrecently, in 2023, changed their
super seven, which was the youneed to do these seven things
for a healthy heart, to call itessential eight, and now number
(08:14):
one is sleep.
So it used to be, you know,this triangle of diet, exercise
and that's and working out.
You know that was kind of thetriangle.
Now sleep is really one of themost important things.
That is backed by all of thehealth care researchers.
So there was this moment intime a few years ago where it
started to shift.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
We've been trained, I think, to be doers and
obviously when you're sleepingyou're not doing.
You know you're in your mind,your mindset is nothing's
happening and also nobody'swatching when you're sleeping,
and so you know we are aperformance culture, we're a
doing culture, and you don'thave an audience when you're
(08:48):
asleep.
So I do think that plays intothe answer to your question
about why haven't we gotten this?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
memo.
That's true and that's a greatpoint Lori's making, because
that's another reason why we'veresonated so well with some of
the elite sports teams only theprofessional sports teams, but
the school sports teams becausethe coaches are like we can't be
in the rooms with them tellingthem to go to sleep.
We need a tool to help them goto sleep, and so it's really
resonated with these guys yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So when one of my uh, one of my former athletes his
name is ryan pepeo, he gotdrafted by the dodgers and plays
down in Tampa Bay for the Raysnow the the first thing that the
Dodgers organization did whenhe got out to LA was throw a
woot band on him and starttracking his recovery.
And start tracking, you know,not not just sleep, but sleep is
(09:41):
certainly a huge piece and ahuge portion of recovery.
You know, making sure that theywere taking care of his body
and he was taking care of hisbody.
I mean, you know, here's thisorganization that's investing
hundreds of millions of dollarsinto helping athletes perform at
a high level, and the firstthing they do is slap a whoop
(10:05):
band on them.
And then, the second thing,they started, you know, doing
some, some mental performancetraining, which made my heart
happy when he took a picture ofa poster board that he had put
together and said look, coachCarnes, doing the same stuff we
used to do.
Um, talk, talk to me a littlebit, maybe, about.
You know, as this wave isstarting to, you know, come up
(10:31):
on your ability to focus andlearn in 2013 how sleep fuels
physical recovery In 2011,.
(10:51):
It helps with decision makingand reaction time In 2017, helps
you balance your emotionalsystem In 2019, like the
research is really starting topick up here a little bit.
Like the research is reallystarting to pick up here a
little bit and we're reallystarting to say, hey, we need to
start paying attention to this.
(11:12):
Talk to me.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyou know, as we move on past
these early adopters, what'sthis start to look like as this
becomes a little bit more andmore commonplace?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, I think one of the problem but the potential
sort of stumbling blocks maybeabout it is that with more
people, mainstream and otherwise, wearing whoops and other kind
of tracking devices, some aretelling us that they're getting
a little more stressed out aboutsleep and that's impeding their
sleep progress.
(11:44):
You know they're actuallygetting less sleep rather than
better sleep.
So it's going to be tricky, aswe navigate this new acceptance
of sleep as a performance tool,to not get too stressed out
about it and find for eachathlete, for each human, to find
their personal stack, if youwill, that helps them prepare
(12:05):
and then get better sleep.
That will be the challenge.
We worked with the NFL and theNFL Players Association, and the
athletes, for example, oninjured reserve, told us that
they don't really want theleague to get their data, their
sleep data.
You know that's privateinformation they would like.
They'd rather they don't wantanything to be held against them
(12:28):
.
If they didn't sleep well thatnight will they get fewer, less
playing time, whatever.
So what they told us was wereally like the idea of tools
that are simple, that areobviously drug-free and that are
private, that just help ussleep.
So I think that if people cansimplify well, first identify
(12:52):
their individual process thathelps them warm up, as we call
it, from sleep and then exercisea good solid sleep workout
where they have long qualitysleep, and then also just keep
this mindset around it makes adifference and then track that
(13:12):
difference.
You know, as they wake up, see,see what they're getting.
That will be the unlock.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Take us back, uh, maybe to the, the moment that
sparked the inactive company.
Let's talk a little bit morejust about the organization that
you guys are, the company thatyou're running.
Now, what was it that you sawthat said hey, this is where we
(13:37):
need to direct our time andeffort and energy.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, we worked with a lot of startups and also knew
the history of a lot of bigcorporations that had made it.
And the key principle to youknow, finding a company and then
developing it is to identify abig market and then solve a
problem for the people in thatmarket.
And this is pre-COVID, when wereally honed in on sleep.
Like we said earlier, based onour own experience, feeling a
little frazzled all the time andnot feeling like we were
(14:11):
performing optimally I was goingout at 5 am and doing runs and
then going to, you know, gettingready, going to work and then
making dinner for three kidswhen I got home from work every
night.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Rinse and repeat.
When I got home from work,every night, rinse and repeat
and I was exhausted.
So the genesis of the companyreally was.
Here's our personal experience,but here's what we know as
marketing experts and as peoplethat have been in the business
world for quite some time.
We found a product in a bigmarket that had not been
(14:46):
innovated in literally a hundredyears.
You know there were.
The solution for a sleep mask isdeceptively simple, but we love
that.
So what was out on the marketwere either these very thin, you
know silky pieces of fabricwith a piece of elastic around
(15:09):
to keep it on your face, orstiff, hard foam masks, or kind
of over-engineered chunky masks.
And we said why isn't anybodydoing something that can help a
wearer achieve 100% blackout,regardless of the size of their
(15:30):
head, the shape of their faceand their features?
Because we knew that, based onresearch, complete blackout is
the single most important thingthat you need to get a good
night's sleep.
And then we said the secondmost important thing is
temperature regulation.
How come nobody's made it easyand just simply built in a
temperature regulation device?
(15:52):
Because especially athletes alltold us we're so hot we sleep
all the time.
And that wasn't even with a nodto the fact that your circadian
rhythm, as you begin to wake up, your body temperature begins
to rise.
So you know, we wanted to startjust taking the problems that
people were telling us aroundwhy they couldn't get sleep and
(16:14):
solving them with a simple,affordable, portable, portable
tool, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
What do you think's most misunderstood about sleep?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
most misunderstood about sleep.
I think you need to identifyyour own sleep habits.
That's what's most identified.
I mean and I am now I'mpreaching what I talk about,
right, I'm preaching to thechoir.
I never slept Well, lori willtell you.
I was a horrible sleeper.
I was always proud of the factI'm like I don't really need a
lot of sleep to run, and then Igot really sick.
I actually got pneumonia andwas still super busy.
And then once I figured outthat I could sleep when it
(16:55):
worked for me my routine atnight.
I have my own routine.
I'm also a creature of sunlightand heat, so if I can wake up
and see the light of day afterI've slept a good solid seven
hours and I have a great fitnessroutine going and taking care
of myself.
I haven't been sick in twoyears and that was a game
changer for me, and I thinkpeople need to realize you don't
(17:16):
have to do what she's doing oryou're doing.
You need to do what works foryou.
But what works for you is alsosleep.
The other thing is, you knowit's in our DNA.
We were born and made andcreated to sleep, which is why
you can't replace that with anysort of supplement, tonic or
pill.
You have to sleep and I think,once people accept that as well,
(17:37):
you need to sleep in order toperform, it's a.
It's a complete game changer.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, and I know one of the things that you guys talk
about is small weekly changesrather than a giant sleep
overhaul.
So if I'm a, if I'm a coach orI'm an athlete that's listening
to this and I'm thinking, allright, well, maybe this is, you
know, maybe the this competitiveedge is I need to get a little
bit more sleep so I recover alittle bit better, so I, you
(18:02):
know, can recharge and beperforming closer to 100%,
rather than just walking aroundlike a zombie at 75% all the
time.
What's that look like?
Where's that come from?
What's the science behind that?
Why do you guys go for thesmall weekly changes?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well.
So we developed a Sleep 7playbook that was very closely
aligned to the cognitivebehavioral training for insomnia
which is kind of the currentpremium solution for insomnia.
It's CBTI.
You can look it up, but what itstresses are these simple tools
(18:42):
and also I think your audienceis probably familiar with James
Clear Atomic Habits andsimplifying, you know, creating
a habit that works for you andkeeping it simple.
So that's kind of based onthose two science backed
processes for and applying thoseto sleep we thought was the
(19:03):
easiest and best way for peopleto say I'm not going to let it
stress me out, it's not that bigof a deal, I just need to find
my couple things that get meready to go to sleep.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What are maybe some of those seven evidence-backed
strategies?
What's that look like?
What's a pragmatic or takeawayhere for some of the audience?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, we actually have the seven steps on our
website too.
We have, you know, sort offashioned them into a sports
analogy.
So the first thing we say is golong right.
So set your sights on seven tonine hours.
Don't even set your alarm foranything earlier.
So if you got to wake up alittle earlier, then you got to
go to bed a little earlier aswell.
(19:45):
You want to that seven to ninehours aiming period so that you
can.
It's not gonna happen overnight, no pun intended, but as you
start to train yourself.
Secondly is a safe space right.
Your bed is for sleeping andnot for eating or binging too
much Netflix or doing anythingelse.
And I'm just as guilty asanybody else of having a snack
(20:06):
and answering emails.
I literally had to stop doingthat.
Third is to blackout.
So you know the inactivatorshelps with that as well, Because
not only does it give youdarkness, it's also a little bit
of a Pavlovian signal to yourbrain.
So when you see it, yourshoulders start to drop, your
body starts to say oh, it's,it's time for bed.
(20:26):
Like I can actually startgetting into my routine now.
The fifth is like get a buddy,you know, talk about it.
It's amazing that you'reactually having these
conversations with your athletesand your audience and it's okay
.
It's okay to say I'm tired andI need to sleep, so really have
that.
And then you know, track itwhenever you can.
(20:47):
A lot of the athletes that wework with actually keep little
notebooks.
If they're not wearingtechnology, they're actually
keeping notebooks because theywant to understand some of their
best days and how they performthe best, either pre-season,
in-season, post-season.
They'll go back to that andthink you know, a, some of them
are really superstitious, but B,they want to understand how
(21:10):
they prepared, and sleep is nowa big part of that as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
What's a good resource if folks are wanting to
maybe take that next step.
Maybe they're stuck in some badsleep habits and it's like all
right, I know I need to dosomething about this.
Where should they start thisweek?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
So we like well, first of all, go to
inactivecocom and buy a sleepmask for yourself, buy the
inactivators, because that iseasy.
And just back to don't get allstressed out.
You know you realize that youneed to sleep better.
That is a great one thing,because you can't be on your
phone, as Jill was kind ofalluding to earlier, if your
(21:55):
eyes are covered, was kind ofalluding to earlier if your eyes
are covered.
So wearing a sleep mask isgoing to help train your brain
but then help your bodyphysiologically to sleep better.
So that would be an easy thing.
The next thing is realize thatthe way that you sleep and your
performance actually starts inthe morning.
So getting out and gettingmorning sunlight is another
(22:17):
simple thing that you can do toset your circadian rhythm and
get yourself ready to have asuccessful night of sleep that
night and then notice the changethe next day.
So I think that you know why wesleep.
The book is a great resourcetool and just get one simple
thing and that's.
(22:37):
You know I'm, you know I soundlike we're.
It's simple, but it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Like it's so simple to tell a kid, hey, you should
go to bed and you should get,you know, eight to nine hours of
sleep so that you can performat your best in this game
tomorrow.
But then when that kid goesupstairs and they get that
message or that DM or that youknow whatever just got posted by
whoever, now all of a suddenit's not so easy to be able to,
(23:27):
to just set that phone down.
I mean, it's almost likethey're, they're literally
having to choose their their ownrest and their own recovery
over their friends, their sociallife, their, you know, whatever
it is.
They're afraid of missing outon things like that.
If you were a coach who wasmaybe trying to hammer this
(23:49):
message home to a teenager whomaybe already feels a little bit
invincible to begin with, like,let's be honest, when we were,
when we were teenagers, wedidn't have you didn't have that
same feeling of I'm at work allday, I've got to come home,
take care of three kids, I gotto make dinner, I got to, you
know, keep laundry going orwhatever other household things
(24:11):
have to happen on a daily basis.
You know how, how do you, howdo you send that message to the
teenagers that this is going tohelp you perform better and we
have to start taking this moreserious.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I think you.
That's why we like structuringsleep as a workout, because kids
can relate to you need to do 12reps, three sets, to reach, you
know, your maximum bench presspotential, whatever Like like.
They understand the math thereOnce.
If a coach can frame this in asimilar way and say I'm going to
(24:49):
give you a tool, put this onevery night, be consistent, go
to bed at the same time, wake upat the same time every day,
even on weekends, wear this andlet's start there and see how
you feel I'm going to.
I'm going to be watching andset a goal.
You know, like let's or let'sevaluate your game day
(25:10):
performance.
There's also research thatshows that, all things being
equal, two teams play againsteach other in a game.
The team that slept better thenight before will win.
So I think just talking to kidsin terms of sleep as a workout
is a good first step.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Love that, All right.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor taking the time to come on
here today.
If folks are wanting to takethat next step, tell us just one
more time the website, contactinfo, social media, like what's
the best way for them to getconnected with you guys and
learn a little bit more aboutwhat's going on, what those
(25:50):
seven tools are, what next stepslook like.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, our website is inactivecocom, Super easy.
And then we're the inactivecompany on all social media.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
We do give team discounts If anybody wants to
buy.
You know a doable product andconsider it performance
equipment.
And one last thing, ben we doput logos of schools on the side
of the mask at their request,and they are handing them out
(26:29):
and telling these players thatthis is part of your performance
equipment package and that alsohas been a huge help to get
kids to realize I need to usethis.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love that Well.
Thank you guys so much.
It's been wonderful to hearyour story and I am I'm not
gonna lie I feel like this issomething that is is worth
looking a little bit more intoand something that that I could
see.
You know, moving forward needsto become a little bit more of a
priority across a whole lot ofdifferent spaces.
(26:58):
So thank you guys so much foryour time today.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Absolutely, thank you .
We appreciate it.
Hey, welcome to the Coaching Minds podcast, the
official podcast of MentalTraining Plan.
Today's episode is all aboutperformance, but not in the way
that you might expect.
We're talking about recovery,rest and the science of sleep.
I'm joined by Lori Oliver andJill McRae, co-founders of the
Inactive Company.
These two have spent decadesexperiencing building
(00:23):
powerhouses like Spanx,coca-cola, starbucks, and now
they're on a mission to helppeople sleep better, perform
better and feel better.
We're going to unpack whatactually works when it comes to
sleep, why most people are doingit wrong and how their product,
the Inactivator Sleep Mask, ischanging the game.
(00:44):
Lori and Jill, welcome to theshow.
Appreciate you guys joining ustoday.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you, Ben, for having us.
We really appreciate you havingus today.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So I'm not going to lie.
I get.
I get emails all the time frompromoters that are trying to get
you know so and so to come be aguest on the show.
I delete most of them.
I was intrigued by this and Iwould say that sleep is kind of.
Sleep is one of those areas thatin that little corner right
(01:14):
over there on my whiteboard,we've got a little section of,
like, future things that we'regoing to be exploring.
Sleep, nutrition and hydrationare over there and and and I've
got I've got this book that Ishowed you when we were talking
at the beginning uh, why wesleep, unlocking the power of
sleep and dreams.
(01:34):
And I had one of my formerathletes, who was a pitcher at
Ohio state university, called meone day, all excited, and he
was like Coach Carnes, you'vegot to get this book.
And I'm telling you he was hewas legitimately pumped about it
, like he had just found thisway to unlock some kind of
(01:56):
competitive edge.
So, ladies, I would love tojust kind of hear you know,
maybe a quickly, briefly, alittle bit about your story and
how the heck you kind of hearyou know, maybe a quickly,
briefly, a little bit about yourstory and how the heck you kind
of got into this field andwhere we're at now.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Before we tell you that, I just need to say that we
call that book why we Sleep theBible and Matt Walker.
We were just with him at aglobal sleep symposium last
month in New York, along withsome other sleep experts, and it
is a tremendous resource, so wevalidate the book even though
(02:33):
it's not ours, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So Lori and I met.
We actually spent we mentionedearlier we spent about 25 years
building powerhouse careers andyou know we grew up
professionally in the about 25years building powerhouse
careers and you know we grew upprofessionally in the nineties
which was basically sleep whenyou're dead and you know,
outperforming everybody,outperforming each other.
Don't worry about rest.
You were sort of you know kindof a pansy, if you said that you
were ever tired.
Plus, we're moms between us,with different partners.
(03:01):
We have seven kids, you know,ranging in ages super active.
We're both into fitness and wealso bonded over SEC football
because we went to theUniversity of Georgia.
So we were constantly on the goand while we were on the
leadership team at Spanx we weretraveling literally around the
globe and we were exhausted allthe time, tried everything you
name it melatonin, gummies, wetried to outbuy each other on
(03:25):
mattresses and pillows andreally realized that sleep was
like that, one elusive thingthat we could never perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
The irony there was that we're both athletes and
we're both health nuts, and soyou know.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I'm not an athlete.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, you are, yes, you are Jill's an Alta tennis
champion.
But we, but despite, you know,having hard workouts, we would
still exhaust ourselves and thennot get proper rest at night.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
For a multitude of reasons.
Right, everybody has their ownreason why they don't sleep well
.
It could be stress, it could behormones, it could be age, it
could be diet, it could bewhatever it is.
But you really, we figured outreally quickly that that was a
game changer for us personally.
And then, when we started toresearch it and talk about it,
we realized it really is a keyfactor in performance and your
(04:15):
body.
You know everyone talks aboutrest and get a lot of sleep, but
the truth of the matter is yourbody's working just as hard
sometimes almost harder whenyou're sleeping for you than
when you're awake.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Which is why we named the company the Inactive
Company, because we reallywanted to preach this message of
the other.
12 hours of the day are asimportant, if not more important
, than your active part of theday.
Just because you're sleepingdoesn't mean your body isn't
working hard.
It actually is and you have anopportunity If you sleep.
(04:48):
The recommended for athletes itreally is eight to nine, eight
to 10 hours.
For us, regular humans, sevento nine.
But if you do get good sleep,quality sleep, every day, you
are increasing your performance,your creativity, your decision
making and lots of other factorsthe very next day.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Also, people can really relate to technology
these days because we basicallylive on technology.
So the inactive company is anod to the fact that you really
have to power down to power backup, reboot sense.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, that's fair.
So you know, I'm not going tolie.
Just in my profession, comingfrom the coaching world, before
you know, before stepping out todo the mental performance
training full time, two o'clockin the morning, breaking down
(05:42):
film and to send notes, and it'slike, oh, he's more dedicated
than me.
How come, why was I asleep whenI could have been watching film
and I could have been gettingan edge on my opponent and I,
you know all of these things inyour mind, like where, where did
that, where did thatmisconception come from?
Was it, was it just a lack ofknowledge?
(06:03):
Was it a trying to gain an edge?
And it just got out of hand.
Like, why is there such a wrongmindset when it comes to rest
and recovery, especially, likeyou said, even more so, like,
with high performing careers?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
There's been a rat race culture for decades and we
are just now beginning torealize and we like to say wake
up to the fact that that is notthe magic formula.
There's been research that hasshown that if you watch film,
for example, and then get yourrecommended good quality sleep,
(06:46):
you'll actually know and processthe content of those films
better than had you stayed upand crammed and watched all
night long.
So you know, I think we'refinally just we've sort of been
waiting for this movement.
But the movement is slowlyhappening where people are
realizing I feel like crap if Idon't get enough sleep.
(07:09):
Why was I slower today?
I know I can do better.
Why did I make that dumbmistake on the field?
I know what I'm supposed to do.
I know my body can do that.
Why aren't I getting strongerwhen I'm lifting so many weights
?
Well, the answers to thosequestions are you're not getting
(07:30):
enough sleep, because sleep iswhat helps your muscles
regenerate.
It helps your brain make theconnections it needs to make to
have creativity when you'reawake and on the field, you know
.
So I think people do realize Idon't have to feel this badly
when I'm awake If I use thenighttime to really do my second
(07:52):
workout.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
There have been some eye openers, just like we have
more research now on CTE andwhat's happening with brain
injury.
American Heart Associationrecently, in 2023, changed their
super seven, which was the youneed to do these seven things
for a healthy heart, to call itessential eight, and now number
(08:14):
one is sleep.
So it used to be, you know,this triangle of diet, exercise
and that's and working out.
You know that was kind of thetriangle.
Now sleep is really one of themost important things.
That is backed by all of thehealth care researchers.
So there was this moment intime a few years ago where it
started to shift.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
We've been trained, I think, to be doers and
obviously when you're sleepingyou're not doing.
You know you're in your mind,your mindset is nothing's
happening and also nobody'swatching when you're sleeping,
and so you know we are aperformance culture, we're a
doing culture, and you don'thave an audience when you're
(08:48):
asleep.
So I do think that plays intothe answer to your question
about why haven't we gotten this?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
memo.
That's true and that's a greatpoint Lori's making, because
that's another reason why we'veresonated so well with some of
the elite sports teams only theprofessional sports teams, but
the school sports teams becausethe coaches are like we can't be
in the rooms with them tellingthem to go to sleep.
We need a tool to help them goto sleep, and so it's really
resonated with these guys yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So when one of my uh, one of my former athletes his
name is ryan pepeo, he gotdrafted by the dodgers and plays
down in Tampa Bay for the Raysnow the the first thing that the
Dodgers organization did whenhe got out to LA was throw a
woot band on him and starttracking his recovery.
And start tracking, you know,not not just sleep, but sleep is
(09:41):
certainly a huge piece and ahuge portion of recovery.
You know, making sure that theywere taking care of his body
and he was taking care of hisbody.
I mean, you know, here's thisorganization that's investing
hundreds of millions of dollarsinto helping athletes perform at
a high level, and the firstthing they do is slap a whoop
(10:05):
band on them.
And then, the second thing,they started, you know, doing
some, some mental performancetraining, which made my heart
happy when he took a picture ofa poster board that he had put
together and said look, coachCarnes, doing the same stuff we
used to do.
Um, talk, talk to me a littlebit, maybe, about.
You know, as this wave isstarting to, you know, come up
(10:31):
on your ability to focus andlearn in 2013 how sleep fuels
physical recovery In 2011,.
(10:51):
It helps with decision makingand reaction time In 2017, helps
you balance your emotionalsystem In 2019, like the
research is really starting topick up here a little bit.
Like the research is reallystarting to pick up here a
little bit and we're reallystarting to say, hey, we need to
start paying attention to this.
(11:12):
Talk to me.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyou know, as we move on past
these early adopters, what'sthis start to look like as this
becomes a little bit more andmore commonplace?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, I think one of the problem but the potential
sort of stumbling blocks maybeabout it is that with more
people, mainstream and otherwise, wearing whoops and other kind
of tracking devices, some aretelling us that they're getting
a little more stressed out aboutsleep and that's impeding their
sleep progress.
(11:44):
You know they're actuallygetting less sleep rather than
better sleep.
So it's going to be tricky, aswe navigate this new acceptance
of sleep as a performance tool,to not get too stressed out
about it and find for eachathlete, for each human, to find
their personal stack, if youwill, that helps them prepare
(12:05):
and then get better sleep.
That will be the challenge.
We worked with the NFL and theNFL Players Association, and the
athletes, for example, oninjured reserve, told us that
they don't really want theleague to get their data, their
sleep data.
You know that's privateinformation they would like.
They'd rather they don't wantanything to be held against them
(12:28):
.
If they didn't sleep well thatnight will they get fewer, less
playing time, whatever.
So what they told us was wereally like the idea of tools
that are simple, that areobviously drug-free and that are
private, that just help ussleep.
So I think that if people cansimplify well, first identify
(12:52):
their individual process thathelps them warm up, as we call
it, from sleep and then exercisea good solid sleep workout
where they have long qualitysleep, and then also just keep
this mindset around it makes adifference and then track that
(13:12):
difference.
You know, as they wake up, see,see what they're getting.
That will be the unlock.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Take us back, uh, maybe to the, the moment that
sparked the inactive company.
Let's talk a little bit morejust about the organization that
you guys are, the company thatyou're running.
Now, what was it that you sawthat said hey, this is where we
(13:37):
need to direct our time andeffort and energy.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, we worked with a lot of startups and also knew
the history of a lot of bigcorporations that had made it.
And the key principle to youknow, finding a company and then
developing it is to identify abig market and then solve a
problem for the people in thatmarket.
And this is pre-COVID, when wereally honed in on sleep.
Like we said earlier, based onour own experience, feeling a
little frazzled all the time andnot feeling like we were
(14:11):
performing optimally I was goingout at 5 am and doing runs and
then going to, you know, gettingready, going to work and then
making dinner for three kidswhen I got home from work every
night.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Rinse and repeat.
When I got home from work,every night, rinse and repeat
and I was exhausted.
So the genesis of the companyreally was.
Here's our personal experience,but here's what we know as
marketing experts and as peoplethat have been in the business
world for quite some time.
We found a product in a bigmarket that had not been
(14:46):
innovated in literally a hundredyears.
You know there were.
The solution for a sleep mask isdeceptively simple, but we love
that.
So what was out on the marketwere either these very thin, you
know silky pieces of fabricwith a piece of elastic around
(15:09):
to keep it on your face, orstiff, hard foam masks, or kind
of over-engineered chunky masks.
And we said why isn't anybodydoing something that can help a
wearer achieve 100% blackout,regardless of the size of their
(15:30):
head, the shape of their faceand their features?
Because we knew that, based onresearch, complete blackout is
the single most important thingthat you need to get a good
night's sleep.
And then we said the secondmost important thing is
temperature regulation.
How come nobody's made it easyand just simply built in a
temperature regulation device?
(15:52):
Because especially athletes alltold us we're so hot we sleep
all the time.
And that wasn't even with a nodto the fact that your circadian
rhythm, as you begin to wake up, your body temperature begins
to rise.
So you know, we wanted to startjust taking the problems that
people were telling us aroundwhy they couldn't get sleep and
(16:14):
solving them with a simple,affordable, portable, portable
tool, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
What do you think's most misunderstood about sleep?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
most misunderstood about sleep.
I think you need to identifyyour own sleep habits.
That's what's most identified.
I mean and I am now I'mpreaching what I talk about,
right, I'm preaching to thechoir.
I never slept Well, lori willtell you.
I was a horrible sleeper.
I was always proud of the factI'm like I don't really need a
lot of sleep to run, and then Igot really sick.
I actually got pneumonia andwas still super busy.
And then once I figured outthat I could sleep when it
(16:55):
worked for me my routine atnight.
I have my own routine.
I'm also a creature of sunlightand heat, so if I can wake up
and see the light of day afterI've slept a good solid seven
hours and I have a great fitnessroutine going and taking care
of myself.
I haven't been sick in twoyears and that was a game
changer for me, and I thinkpeople need to realize you don't
(17:16):
have to do what she's doing oryou're doing.
You need to do what works foryou.
But what works for you is alsosleep.
The other thing is, you knowit's in our DNA.
We were born and made andcreated to sleep, which is why
you can't replace that with anysort of supplement, tonic or
pill.
You have to sleep and I think,once people accept that as well,
(17:37):
you need to sleep in order toperform, it's a.
It's a complete game changer.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, and I know one of the things that you guys talk
about is small weekly changesrather than a giant sleep
overhaul.
So if I'm a, if I'm a coach orI'm an athlete that's listening
to this and I'm thinking, allright, well, maybe this is, you
know, maybe the this competitiveedge is I need to get a little
bit more sleep so I recover alittle bit better, so I, you
(18:02):
know, can recharge and beperforming closer to 100%,
rather than just walking aroundlike a zombie at 75% all the
time.
What's that look like?
Where's that come from?
What's the science behind that?
Why do you guys go for thesmall weekly changes?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well.
So we developed a Sleep 7playbook that was very closely
aligned to the cognitivebehavioral training for insomnia
which is kind of the currentpremium solution for insomnia.
It's CBTI.
You can look it up, but what itstresses are these simple tools
(18:42):
and also I think your audienceis probably familiar with James
Clear Atomic Habits andsimplifying, you know, creating
a habit that works for you andkeeping it simple.
So that's kind of based onthose two science backed
processes for and applying thoseto sleep we thought was the
(19:03):
easiest and best way for peopleto say I'm not going to let it
stress me out, it's not that bigof a deal, I just need to find
my couple things that get meready to go to sleep.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What are maybe some of those seven evidence-backed
strategies?
What's that look like?
What's a pragmatic or takeawayhere for some of the audience?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Well, we actually have the seven steps on our
website too.
We have, you know, sort offashioned them into a sports
analogy.
So the first thing we say is golong right.
So set your sights on seven tonine hours.
Don't even set your alarm foranything earlier.
So if you got to wake up alittle earlier, then you got to
go to bed a little earlier aswell.
(19:45):
You want to that seven to ninehours aiming period so that you
can.
It's not gonna happen overnight, no pun intended, but as you
start to train yourself.
Secondly is a safe space right.
Your bed is for sleeping andnot for eating or binging too
much Netflix or doing anythingelse.
And I'm just as guilty asanybody else of having a snack
(20:06):
and answering emails.
I literally had to stop doingthat.
Third is to blackout.
So you know the inactivatorshelps with that as well, Because
not only does it give youdarkness, it's also a little bit
of a Pavlovian signal to yourbrain.
So when you see it, yourshoulders start to drop, your
body starts to say oh, it's,it's time for bed.
(20:26):
Like I can actually startgetting into my routine now.
The fifth is like get a buddy,you know, talk about it.
It's amazing that you'reactually having these
conversations with your athletesand your audience and it's okay
.
It's okay to say I'm tired andI need to sleep, so really have
that.
And then you know, track itwhenever you can.
(20:47):
A lot of the athletes that wework with actually keep little
notebooks.
If they're not wearingtechnology, they're actually
keeping notebooks because theywant to understand some of their
best days and how they performthe best, either pre-season,
in-season, post-season.
They'll go back to that andthink you know, a, some of them
are really superstitious, but B,they want to understand how
(21:10):
they prepared, and sleep is nowa big part of that as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
What's a good resource if folks are wanting to
maybe take that next step.
Maybe they're stuck in some badsleep habits and it's like all
right, I know I need to dosomething about this.
Where should they start thisweek?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
So we like well, first of all, go to
inactivecocom and buy a sleepmask for yourself, buy the
inactivators, because that iseasy.
And just back to don't get allstressed out.
You know you realize that youneed to sleep better.
That is a great one thing,because you can't be on your
phone, as Jill was kind ofalluding to earlier, if your
(21:55):
eyes are covered, was kind ofalluding to earlier if your eyes
are covered.
So wearing a sleep mask isgoing to help train your brain
but then help your bodyphysiologically to sleep better.
So that would be an easy thing.
The next thing is realize thatthe way that you sleep and your
performance actually starts inthe morning.
So getting out and gettingmorning sunlight is another
(22:17):
simple thing that you can do toset your circadian rhythm and
get yourself ready to have asuccessful night of sleep that
night and then notice the changethe next day.
So I think that you know why wesleep.
The book is a great resourcetool and just get one simple
thing and that's.
(22:37):
You know I'm, you know I soundlike we're.
It's simple, but it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Like it's so simple to tell a kid, hey, you should
go to bed and you should get,you know, eight to nine hours of
sleep so that you can performat your best in this game
tomorrow.
But then when that kid goesupstairs and they get that
message or that DM or that youknow whatever just got posted by
whoever, now all of a suddenit's not so easy to be able to,
(23:27):
to just set that phone down.
I mean, it's almost likethey're, they're literally
having to choose their their ownrest and their own recovery
over their friends, their sociallife, their, you know, whatever
it is.
They're afraid of missing outon things like that.
If you were a coach who wasmaybe trying to hammer this
(23:49):
message home to a teenager whomaybe already feels a little bit
invincible to begin with, like,let's be honest, when we were,
when we were teenagers, wedidn't have you didn't have that
same feeling of I'm at work allday, I've got to come home,
take care of three kids, I gotto make dinner, I got to, you
know, keep laundry going orwhatever other household things
(24:11):
have to happen on a daily basis.
You know how, how do you, howdo you send that message to the
teenagers that this is going tohelp you perform better and we
have to start taking this moreserious.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
I think you.
That's why we like structuringsleep as a workout, because kids
can relate to you need to do 12reps, three sets, to reach, you
know, your maximum bench presspotential, whatever Like like.
They understand the math thereOnce.
If a coach can frame this in asimilar way and say I'm going to
(24:49):
give you a tool, put this onevery night, be consistent, go
to bed at the same time, wake upat the same time every day,
even on weekends, wear this andlet's start there and see how
you feel I'm going to.
I'm going to be watching andset a goal.
You know, like let's or let'sevaluate your game day
(25:10):
performance.
There's also research thatshows that, all things being
equal, two teams play againsteach other in a game.
The team that slept better thenight before will win.
So I think just talking to kidsin terms of sleep as a workout
is a good first step.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Love that, All right.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor taking the time to come on
here today.
If folks are wanting to takethat next step, tell us just one
more time the website, contactinfo, social media, like what's
the best way for them to getconnected with you guys and
learn a little bit more aboutwhat's going on, what those
(25:50):
seven tools are, what next stepslook like.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, our website is inactivecocom, Super easy.
And then we're the inactivecompany on all social media.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
We do give team discounts If anybody wants to
buy.
You know a doable product andconsider it performance
equipment.
And one last thing, ben we doput logos of schools on the side
of the mask at their request,and they are handing them out
(26:29):
and telling these players thatthis is part of your performance
equipment package and that alsohas been a huge help to get
kids to realize I need to usethis.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love that Well.
Thank you guys so much.
It's been wonderful to hearyour story and I am I'm not
gonna lie I feel like this issomething that is is worth
looking a little bit more intoand something that that I could
see.
You know, moving forward needsto become a little bit more of a
priority across a whole lot ofdifferent spaces.
(26:58):
So thank you guys so much foryour time today.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Absolutely, thank you .
We appreciate it.
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