April 22, 2023 • 20 mins
In this episode, Becca and Dr. Orbé-Austin discuss the details of imposter syndrome. They talk about imposter syndrome as a cycle, what it looks and feels like, and how to identify imposter syndrome in yourself. Becca and Dr. Orbé-Austin give examples of triggers and specifically what to do when you are triggered and fall into feeling like you are a fraud. They are discuss what this looks like in schools as well as questions to help you self reflect and discover the root of your own imposter syndrome. After this episode, you will be able to clearly recognize the symptoms of imposter syndrome and gain strategies to stop letting imposter syndrome diminish your impact as a leader.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Becca Silver (00:00):
Hello, hello, hello coaches and leaders, I am
(00:03):
so pumped to have Dr or BayAustin. On this episode, we are
so lucky to have a little sliceof her time. She specializes in
multiple things. But today we'regoing to be talking about
impostor syndrome. So I firstwould love to welcome Dr. Orby.
Austin, and I'd love you toshare what your background is.
Unknown (00:26):
So I am a licensed psychologist, who essentially
works as an executive coach. I'ma counseling psychologist. So my
background is and adaptive kindof issues and processes. And one
of those adaptive issues that welearned about a lot is career.
And so that's why I be kind offocused my area executive
coaching. I also am the authorof two books on impostor
(00:49):
syndrome. One is own yourgreatness. The other one is your
unstoppable greatness. I'm verypassionate about the topic,
largely because I've looked atmyself, and I really want to
make sure everyone gets free ofit. And I just have a real
passion for change and seeingpeople really live their best
work lives. And so
Becca Silver (01:08):
I love it. I love it. And you know, you and I were
kind of sharing our professionalbackgrounds, right. And and you
and I have both dealt withimpostor syndrome, and it still
comes up for me, right? It's notsomething that's cured
unnecessarily. I feel like it'smore of a practice to, to
notice, right and havestrategies around. So for those
folks listening, the first thingI'd love to kind of get flat in
(01:30):
the room is what is impostorsyndrome?
Unknown (01:33):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is the experience when
you are qualified, experienced,credentialed, you know, you have
the background, but you've yethaven't internalized that. And
as a result of not internalizingthat you fear being exposed as a
fraud, in order to cover up thatperceived fraudulent to either
overwork and over function orself sabotage, and have trouble
(01:53):
taking in positive feedbackaround your performance. And
also hyper focus on negativefeedback, trying to never make
those mistakes again, and getcaught very much in the imposter
syndrome cycle, where it feelslike this is just an experience
you have all the time. As soonas you're triggered, you get
into these cycles over and overagain, around feeling like
you're not good enough andhaving to overwork to do so to
(02:13):
kind of really do.
Becca Silver (02:15):
Yeah, and I can imagine those, the coaches and
leaders listening, right, andit's these jobs can be very
isolating. And, and you know,you're in a leadership position,
you're helping other adults. AndI should imagine those people
listening, you know, could couldidentify with some, or maybe
(02:35):
even all of what you just said,I certainly do.
Unknown (02:37):
Yeah, and I think one, you know, so oftentimes we think
about sort of imposter syndromeoccurring and one of and
thinking about as an earlycareer phenomenon, oh, it only
happens when I just started out.
And that's actually not true,was the data shut? That's not
true that it actually carry withyou your whole career. And then
as you get more senior and moreleadership positions and more
visible, the triggers can bemore powerful in the sense that
you feel like there's more,there's more at stake, there's
(03:00):
more to lose. I have moreresponsibility, more eyes on me.
So it's such an important thingto recognize that if you're
still dealing with it later inyour career, it's not surprising
it actually can stick with youfairly well.
Becca Silver (03:11):
Yeah. So I read in a book called Lean In about
gender differences, and I'd loveto hear from you. What are if
there are gender differences?
What are their genderdifferences in the world of
imposter syndrome?
Unknown (03:29):
Yeah, so I miss Do you often hear about imposter
syndrome as Oh, only women haveimpostor syndrome, mostly women
have impostor and that's whollyuntrue. The research has shown
that both men and womenexperience imposter syndrome.
And the new research is showingdifferences in gender
expression, which I think is soexciting. But what the research
has shown to date is that forwomen who experience impostor
syndrome, they tend to be whatwe consider counter phobic. So
(03:52):
they actually will face thething that they fear. But as a
result, they're triggered bytheir imposter syndrome more
often, because they're actuallyfacing the thing that they fear.
They tend to work and spend moretime on tasks than those without
impostor syndrome, and tend to,you know, be kind of exposed to
it just more often because ofthat propensity. And then for
(04:13):
for men, what we find for men isthat they tend to aim toward
mastery and take less risks. Andso they find themselves in some
ways escalating last, gettingless opportunity, because
they're afraid of the risk thatthey might take. And so they,
they tend to be associated withpeers that are less capable than
they are. And they're aimingmore toward mastery and kind of
(04:35):
being able to show that they cansucceed in a particular area,
but that actually can kind ofsuppress their advancement.
Becca Silver (04:40):
That's so interesting like that. I'm
fascinated with the women'sexpression that we will face the
tough thing, but in the reactionor the impact is that we're kind
of retriggered right? Yeah.
Unknown (04:56):
And that you're experiencing probably, in terms
of frequency, you're probablyexperienced thing posture more
often because you're puttingyourself in front of a trigger
moral. Okay. So I have
Becca Silver (05:07):
an interesting question that popped up as you
were talking, Are there negativebehaviors that come from
imposter syndrome that theyfound in research kind of
consistent behaviors, it's like,you know, people experienced
impostor syndrome tend to dothis to maybe cover up, you
know, that they feel likethey're fraud.
Unknown (05:27):
You know, there's a lot of negative behaviors associated
with impostor syndrome. I thinksome of the ones that are the
some of the most common is thatyou tend to engage in sort of
intellectual inauthenticity. Andso this is an experience that
you might know something, butunless you feel like you know,
it, 100% or you feel like,you're not going to shame or
embarrass anyone by knowing it,you don't share it. And so we
(05:50):
often then often high what weknow unless we feel absolutely
sure. And then we're alsoworried about the social
consequences of knowing. Sothat's a significant experience.
Another one is that we tend topursue mentors solely for the
the experience of externalvalidation. We want them to be
like, yes, you're on the rightpath, yes, you're doing the
right thing. But mentors canserve a variety of roles. And
(06:11):
mentors can be in all kinds ofperiods of your life, it doesn't
have to just be in your juniorJunior professional experiences,
we also tend to not negotiateour salaries. So we tend to make
less than other people, we alsotend to be organizationally
really loyal. So even if acentral organization is not
loyal to us, we tend to beoverly loyal to it and stay
around longer than we should. Wedo a lot of behaviors that are
(06:32):
detrimental to ourselves. Andsometimes we can do different
behaviors that are detrimentalto others to so
Becca Silver (06:38):
that's so interesting. Wow. As I was
listening, I was like, Yep, I'vedone that. Yep, I've done that.
Yeah, I got a mentor to getexternal validation. Absolutely.
And, you know, something thatyou said that I just wanted to
highlight was in schools,typically, we have been putting
quite a bit of focus onsupporting early career
educators or new teachers. Andnew principals can get some
(07:02):
support some mentorship, butrarely in schools is is
attention and money put towardssupporting people a bit more
experienced? As you know, you'redoing off you go?
Unknown (07:15):
Yes. Yeah, I think it's, it's really a missed
opportunity. Because at everystage in your professional
development, you're dealing withsomething else. Hopefully,
you're always growing. And ifyou're always growing, it means
you're always also not knowingand you need some support. And
so I think it is reallyimportant to recognize everyone
is in a different phase ofdevelopment. Everyone needs that
mentorship support. Yes. It'ssuper important. It is
Becca Silver (07:38):
so interesting. So now, I'd love to know, what are
the internal impacts of havingimposter syndrome?
Unknown (07:48):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is correlated to
anxiety, it's correlated todepression. So you can actually,
you know, it can increase yourexperience of anxiety and
depression, for people of color,it actually is correlated to
additional experiences ofdepression as a result of
discrimination. So if you haveexperienced discrimination, you
(08:09):
actually have greater levels ofdepression as a result of that.
So it can have really hugemental health impacts. It itself
is not a diagnosis, you can't bediagnosed with imposter
syndrome. But it is correlatedto a lot of very significant
diagnoses that can really impactyou pretty significantly. And
one of the biggest ones we talkabout is burnout. So burnout is
(08:29):
a diagnosis. And actually,oftentimes, we know not only
burnt out, but we're chronicallyburnt out, we just almost don't
even recognize what it is to beburnt out anymore. Because we've
just lived like this so long. Ithas a lot of really powerful
impacts on our own well beingand our relationships and the
way that we function out in theworld. So it is a really
important thing to realize thatit's not just happening. This
(08:52):
phenomenon is not just thisthing. Oh, yeah, I feel
insecure. I feel like enough,good enough, but that it also
has really significant mentalhealth impacts to you that can
last a long time.
Becca Silver (09:01):
Yeah. And I actually used the word insecure
and and I'm wondering if youcould actually give distinction.
What's the difference betweenbeing insecure and having
impostor syndrome?
Unknown (09:13):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is a constellation of
things. It's not just feelinglike people often say, Oh, it's
you have to have poor selfesteem. No, it's way more than
that. It's this. It's thisexperience, you know, that you
are, you can be perfectionisticyou can often overestimate
others and underestimateyourself. You can, you know,
engage in these intellectual,inauthentic engagements where
you feel like you're not trulyyourself in this moment, because
(09:35):
you're trying to hide things.
You're, you're often also veryconscious of how other people
are perceiving you can be verycaught up with external
validation almost overeverything else. So there's a
constellation of things and whenpeople have impostor, they're
like, ding ding, ding, ding,ding. It's not like oh, I have a
self esteem but no, I'm notlooking for external validation
or, Oh, I have you know, astruggle with this. And I feel
embarrassed when I don't knowthat but yeah, I don't do this
(09:57):
because they feel all of thedifferent constellation factors.
And so I think it's it's avariety of things that are going
on, largely with this conceptthat if you make a mistake, if
you do something wrong, it'sevidence that you're a fraud. I
think that's one of thehallmarks of it. But but it is a
variety of things that is notjust selfish, you can have self
esteem issues and not haveimpostor syndrome.
Becca Silver (10:18):
Okay, that was a really great distinction. And
you mentioned perfectionism,which I kind of thought I was
like, I wonder if this isrelated. And it is. And so I
actually I talk quite a bitabout perfectionism, because a
lot of educators and schoolcoaches and principals can have
perfectionism and the light thatI really shine on it within
(10:40):
education, we talk a lot aboutgrowth mindset. Yeah. And I was
thinking, Yes, and perfectionismis a symptom of a fixed mindset.
And, and many times we, ineducation, glaze over growth
mindset and have incorrectdefinitions of growth mindset.
But I wanted to highlight that,that, you know, perfectionism is
(11:02):
a symptom
Unknown (11:04):
of it, you know, so the root isn't perfectionism, per
se, it
Becca Silver (11:10):
could, it could, right? Perfectionism can come
from multiple things. But yeah,if if you someone that's
listening, is suffering fromperfectionism the need to do it.
Right, right. You might haveimpostor syndrome, kind of
fueling that, is that I guess,
Unknown (11:26):
absolutely, there's a really significant correlation
between perfectionism and animpostor syndrome. And I think
one of the things that I thinkis so important to recognize is
that oftentimes perfectionism isantithetical to learning. And so
like, what is teaching you ismastery, get get this right, get
it right all the time. And itreally doesn't allow you to make
mistakes, and really appreciatethe importance of failure and
(11:46):
mistakes and growth. And that,you know, I kind of hoped
nowadays that I'm in anotherposition with my own imposter
syndrome, I kind of hope I'malways failing and making
mistakes, because otherwise, itsuggests that I'm in a, in a bad
place, I'm stuck in some otherplace. And like, you know, if
you follow me on Instagram, orany of these other places, like
you'll see constant typos in mywork, not on purpose, but but
(12:08):
I'm doing things very fast, andI've got a lot going on. So I
sometimes don't double andtriple check. So there's a type
of, and I used to get a lot ofheat, because you know, my
audience is largelyperfectionistic. And they
wouldn't say kind of mean thingsabout it. I think I've learned
to realize like, they're intheir own process of hopefully
healing from theirperfectionism. And I can't live
like that. Because if I do lesscontent will come from me, less
(12:29):
effort, less support of thecommunity, I need to be there in
an imperfect way, or I'm notgoing to be able to support you,
because I have to get it allperfect. It's going to be a
while before you get it.
Becca Silver (12:39):
Right. And what I hear is, you know, you're more
committed to making a really bigimpact than doing things
perfectly. Right. And sometimesit's a trade off. Like, what are
you actually more committed to?
Yes, you know, looking good,right? Because perfectionism is
a shield. Yeah, and you know,need to look good. And it's
like, are you willing to reducethe level of impact you have on
(13:00):
other people to essentially lookgood, and protect yourself.
Unknown (13:05):
And also to like, you'd be looking good on the outside,
but you feel like garbage on theinside, you feel like garbage on
the inside. It's not making youfeel great to be perfect. It is
awful. And so I also don't wantto agree to that either. I don't
want to look great on theoutside and feel like garbage on
the inside. I really want tofeel good on the inside. And I'm
a little messy on the outsidebecause I can do right now.
Becca Silver (13:27):
Right. Right. And that's, that's it's really about
the I just keep coming back tolike it. It's not only that it's
the best that you can do rightnow. Right? Because a goal is
never perfection. Yeah. It'sreally is about making a
difference.
Unknown (13:39):
Yes. Yeah. And really making the impact. And that's
what I always remember about thework is like when someone has
like, I've had people say like,How dare you write a book when
you're when you clearly can'tspell or whatever. And I think
it hurts. But I think that oneof the things I remember is all
the people who write me and belike, who changed my life, like,
following your book has turnedmy life around. Like, that's
(14:01):
what I'm trying to do. Like if Iif I spell your without the
apostrophe Ra, you know, like, Idon't think that's stopping
someone from actually getting mypoint. But I think you know, if
I don't share my point thatstops him from getting my point.
100% of the time. Yes. Yeah.
It's something that's beenreally powerful for me to learn
over the process of getting overmy own impostor syndrome.
Becca Silver (14:21):
Yeah. Okay. So I'd love for my coaches and leaders
to hear if they're reallyidentified, this is resonating.
Like this is me, right? I sufferfrom impostor syndrome, what can
they do to help themselves? Yes,so
Unknown (14:35):
I think one of the things that I really suggest is
really figuring out sort of whyit came to be I think that is
really important because thereason why it looks the way it
does today, oftentimes peoplelike Oh, it's my boss is
triggering me in this workenvironment. That's the trigger
that's not why I got startedusually got sorted from some
other reason. I think alsoreally learning how to kind of
(14:55):
change your narrative and watchyour narrative and, and really
be careful about how you speakThink about yourself to others,
and how you speak about yourselfto to yourself, because
oftentimes there's a massivedisconnect from how people
perceive you and how youperceive yourself. And part of
realigning up that narrative is,is working on overcoming him. We
talked about sort of dealingwith automatic negative thoughts
(15:16):
and really, really challengingthem. You know, one of my
favorite quotes by AMI Ray is,you are not your thoughts.
You're the observer of yourthoughts, and really learning
how to observe your thoughts notas truth but as thoughts. And
are they useful for me? Are theyhelpful? Are there other ways
for me to think about thissituation that might be more
productive? And how can I readnarrate those things?
Becca Silver (15:36):
Because it's yeah, it's not the truth? No, it's
never we've
Unknown (15:39):
we've come to believe that whatever we think is the
truth. And it's not, you know,and I think really is trying to
look at the facts and look athow to how to understand
something as facts, because oneof the other things that there's
a there's an automatic negativethought, which we won't actually
talk about in the book that Italk about a lot otherwise
called the inability todisconfirm. And so we will
engage in trying to disconfirmthe the the thought is
(16:03):
irrational, we will always willsay, well, actually, I can prove
that my rational thought istrue. Because like this person
said, I wasn't good at that, orthat the grab onto, like, these
really thin lines that try toprove that that we're as bad as
we think we are. And reallylearning to kind of get into a
point of challenging that, like,is that serving you is that
doing any good for you is likekeeping you stuck in a place.
(16:26):
You don't want to be in thefirst place. And so it's really
a process to really contrast thefacts, even if you can see them
as facts, trusting them is awhole new ballgame.
Becca Silver (16:35):
Yeah. And it makes me think of confirmation bias.
Yeah. So it's like we make adecision. We have an
interpretation about life, astory about ourselves or about
life, and then we find proofthat it's true. See, it's true.
See, it's true, right. And we'refiltering out all the proof that
it's actually not true. Yes.
Unknown (16:51):
Yeah. And I think, you know, recognizing that, you
know, we're engaging in that andbeing able to challenge that
really kind of opens up yourworld. We think we're protecting
ourselves by believing thisthought, but actually, it's
actually narrowing our world isnarrowing the options is
narrowing the possibilities. Butwe broaden our world when we
allow ourselves to be challengedin those thoughts to be
challenged. And so
Becca Silver (17:12):
yeah, well, this conversation has certainly been
educational. For me. This hasbeen so wonderful to learn all
about impostor syndrome. So I'dlove you to share with the
listeners, where can they findyou? You have amazing, I need to
put a little plug in for herInstagram posts. They are so
informational. Everyone's likejuicy full of really useful
(17:33):
stuff. So tell them where theycan find
Unknown (17:35):
you. Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at Dr. Obey Austin,
and I'm on LinkedIn, too. SoLisa RBL, so you can find me I'm
on LinkedIn. I just started aYouTube channel. So I'm also on
YouTube. Yeah, and so like, I'mjust always trying to share
information so people can reallyit's accessible. It's, it's, you
know, credible, it's based onresearch. I don't like just spew
(17:57):
stuff. And so I really thinkit's really important to kind of
do that and publicly share.
Becca Silver (18:01):
Love that and I will put all your information as
links in the show notes as well,so it's easy to kind of click
and follow you I highlyrecommend following Dr. Orby
Austin. So thank you so much forbeing here on the show and
sharing your amazing knowledge
Hello, hello, hello coaches and leaders, I am
(00:03):
so pumped to have Dr or BayAustin. On this episode, we are
so lucky to have a little sliceof her time. She specializes in
multiple things. But today we'regoing to be talking about
impostor syndrome. So I firstwould love to welcome Dr. Orby.
Austin, and I'd love you toshare what your background is.
Unknown (00:26):
So I am a licensed psychologist, who essentially
works as an executive coach. I'ma counseling psychologist. So my
background is and adaptive kindof issues and processes. And one
of those adaptive issues that welearned about a lot is career.
And so that's why I be kind offocused my area executive
coaching. I also am the authorof two books on impostor
(00:49):
syndrome. One is own yourgreatness. The other one is your
unstoppable greatness. I'm verypassionate about the topic,
largely because I've looked atmyself, and I really want to
make sure everyone gets free ofit. And I just have a real
passion for change and seeingpeople really live their best
work lives. And so
Becca Silver (01:08):
I love it. I love it. And you know, you and I were
kind of sharing our professionalbackgrounds, right. And and you
and I have both dealt withimpostor syndrome, and it still
comes up for me, right? It's notsomething that's cured
unnecessarily. I feel like it'smore of a practice to, to
notice, right and havestrategies around. So for those
folks listening, the first thingI'd love to kind of get flat in
(01:30):
the room is what is impostorsyndrome?
Unknown (01:33):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is the experience when
you are qualified, experienced,credentialed, you know, you have
the background, but you've yethaven't internalized that. And
as a result of not internalizingthat you fear being exposed as a
fraud, in order to cover up thatperceived fraudulent to either
overwork and over function orself sabotage, and have trouble
(01:53):
taking in positive feedbackaround your performance. And
also hyper focus on negativefeedback, trying to never make
those mistakes again, and getcaught very much in the imposter
syndrome cycle, where it feelslike this is just an experience
you have all the time. As soonas you're triggered, you get
into these cycles over and overagain, around feeling like
you're not good enough andhaving to overwork to do so to
(02:13):
kind of really do.
Becca Silver (02:15):
Yeah, and I can imagine those, the coaches and
leaders listening, right, andit's these jobs can be very
isolating. And, and you know,you're in a leadership position,
you're helping other adults. AndI should imagine those people
listening, you know, could couldidentify with some, or maybe
(02:35):
even all of what you just said,I certainly do.
Unknown (02:37):
Yeah, and I think one, you know, so oftentimes we think
about sort of imposter syndromeoccurring and one of and
thinking about as an earlycareer phenomenon, oh, it only
happens when I just started out.
And that's actually not true,was the data shut? That's not
true that it actually carry withyou your whole career. And then
as you get more senior and moreleadership positions and more
visible, the triggers can bemore powerful in the sense that
you feel like there's more,there's more at stake, there's
(03:00):
more to lose. I have moreresponsibility, more eyes on me.
So it's such an important thingto recognize that if you're
still dealing with it later inyour career, it's not surprising
it actually can stick with youfairly well.
Becca Silver (03:11):
Yeah. So I read in a book called Lean In about
gender differences, and I'd loveto hear from you. What are if
there are gender differences?
What are their genderdifferences in the world of
imposter syndrome?
Unknown (03:29):
Yeah, so I miss Do you often hear about imposter
syndrome as Oh, only women haveimpostor syndrome, mostly women
have impostor and that's whollyuntrue. The research has shown
that both men and womenexperience imposter syndrome.
And the new research is showingdifferences in gender
expression, which I think is soexciting. But what the research
has shown to date is that forwomen who experience impostor
syndrome, they tend to be whatwe consider counter phobic. So
(03:52):
they actually will face thething that they fear. But as a
result, they're triggered bytheir imposter syndrome more
often, because they're actuallyfacing the thing that they fear.
They tend to work and spend moretime on tasks than those without
impostor syndrome, and tend to,you know, be kind of exposed to
it just more often because ofthat propensity. And then for
(04:13):
for men, what we find for men isthat they tend to aim toward
mastery and take less risks. Andso they find themselves in some
ways escalating last, gettingless opportunity, because
they're afraid of the risk thatthey might take. And so they,
they tend to be associated withpeers that are less capable than
they are. And they're aimingmore toward mastery and kind of
(04:35):
being able to show that they cansucceed in a particular area,
but that actually can kind ofsuppress their advancement.
Becca Silver (04:40):
That's so interesting like that. I'm
fascinated with the women'sexpression that we will face the
tough thing, but in the reactionor the impact is that we're kind
of retriggered right? Yeah.
Unknown (04:56):
And that you're experiencing probably, in terms
of frequency, you're probablyexperienced thing posture more
often because you're puttingyourself in front of a trigger
moral. Okay. So I have
Becca Silver (05:07):
an interesting question that popped up as you
were talking, Are there negativebehaviors that come from
imposter syndrome that theyfound in research kind of
consistent behaviors, it's like,you know, people experienced
impostor syndrome tend to dothis to maybe cover up, you
know, that they feel likethey're fraud.
Unknown (05:27):
You know, there's a lot of negative behaviors associated
with impostor syndrome. I thinksome of the ones that are the
some of the most common is thatyou tend to engage in sort of
intellectual inauthenticity. Andso this is an experience that
you might know something, butunless you feel like you know,
it, 100% or you feel like,you're not going to shame or
embarrass anyone by knowing it,you don't share it. And so we
(05:50):
often then often high what weknow unless we feel absolutely
sure. And then we're alsoworried about the social
consequences of knowing. Sothat's a significant experience.
Another one is that we tend topursue mentors solely for the
the experience of externalvalidation. We want them to be
like, yes, you're on the rightpath, yes, you're doing the
right thing. But mentors canserve a variety of roles. And
(06:11):
mentors can be in all kinds ofperiods of your life, it doesn't
have to just be in your juniorJunior professional experiences,
we also tend to not negotiateour salaries. So we tend to make
less than other people, we alsotend to be organizationally
really loyal. So even if acentral organization is not
loyal to us, we tend to beoverly loyal to it and stay
around longer than we should. Wedo a lot of behaviors that are
(06:32):
detrimental to ourselves. Andsometimes we can do different
behaviors that are detrimentalto others to so
Becca Silver (06:38):
that's so interesting. Wow. As I was
listening, I was like, Yep, I'vedone that. Yep, I've done that.
Yeah, I got a mentor to getexternal validation. Absolutely.
And, you know, something thatyou said that I just wanted to
highlight was in schools,typically, we have been putting
quite a bit of focus onsupporting early career
educators or new teachers. Andnew principals can get some
(07:02):
support some mentorship, butrarely in schools is is
attention and money put towardssupporting people a bit more
experienced? As you know, you'redoing off you go?
Unknown (07:15):
Yes. Yeah, I think it's, it's really a missed
opportunity. Because at everystage in your professional
development, you're dealing withsomething else. Hopefully,
you're always growing. And ifyou're always growing, it means
you're always also not knowingand you need some support. And
so I think it is reallyimportant to recognize everyone
is in a different phase ofdevelopment. Everyone needs that
mentorship support. Yes. It'ssuper important. It is
Becca Silver (07:38):
so interesting. So now, I'd love to know, what are
the internal impacts of havingimposter syndrome?
Unknown (07:48):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is correlated to
anxiety, it's correlated todepression. So you can actually,
you know, it can increase yourexperience of anxiety and
depression, for people of color,it actually is correlated to
additional experiences ofdepression as a result of
discrimination. So if you haveexperienced discrimination, you
(08:09):
actually have greater levels ofdepression as a result of that.
So it can have really hugemental health impacts. It itself
is not a diagnosis, you can't bediagnosed with imposter
syndrome. But it is correlatedto a lot of very significant
diagnoses that can really impactyou pretty significantly. And
one of the biggest ones we talkabout is burnout. So burnout is
(08:29):
a diagnosis. And actually,oftentimes, we know not only
burnt out, but we're chronicallyburnt out, we just almost don't
even recognize what it is to beburnt out anymore. Because we've
just lived like this so long. Ithas a lot of really powerful
impacts on our own well beingand our relationships and the
way that we function out in theworld. So it is a really
important thing to realize thatit's not just happening. This
(08:52):
phenomenon is not just thisthing. Oh, yeah, I feel
insecure. I feel like enough,good enough, but that it also
has really significant mentalhealth impacts to you that can
last a long time.
Becca Silver (09:01):
Yeah. And I actually used the word insecure
and and I'm wondering if youcould actually give distinction.
What's the difference betweenbeing insecure and having
impostor syndrome?
Unknown (09:13):
Yeah, so imposter syndrome is a constellation of
things. It's not just feelinglike people often say, Oh, it's
you have to have poor selfesteem. No, it's way more than
that. It's this. It's thisexperience, you know, that you
are, you can be perfectionisticyou can often overestimate
others and underestimateyourself. You can, you know,
engage in these intellectual,inauthentic engagements where
you feel like you're not trulyyourself in this moment, because
(09:35):
you're trying to hide things.
You're, you're often also veryconscious of how other people
are perceiving you can be verycaught up with external
validation almost overeverything else. So there's a
constellation of things and whenpeople have impostor, they're
like, ding ding, ding, ding,ding. It's not like oh, I have a
self esteem but no, I'm notlooking for external validation
or, Oh, I have you know, astruggle with this. And I feel
embarrassed when I don't knowthat but yeah, I don't do this
(09:57):
because they feel all of thedifferent constellation factors.
And so I think it's it's avariety of things that are going
on, largely with this conceptthat if you make a mistake, if
you do something wrong, it'sevidence that you're a fraud. I
think that's one of thehallmarks of it. But but it is a
variety of things that is notjust selfish, you can have self
esteem issues and not haveimpostor syndrome.
Becca Silver (10:18):
Okay, that was a really great distinction. And
you mentioned perfectionism,which I kind of thought I was
like, I wonder if this isrelated. And it is. And so I
actually I talk quite a bitabout perfectionism, because a
lot of educators and schoolcoaches and principals can have
perfectionism and the light thatI really shine on it within
(10:40):
education, we talk a lot aboutgrowth mindset. Yeah. And I was
thinking, Yes, and perfectionismis a symptom of a fixed mindset.
And, and many times we, ineducation, glaze over growth
mindset and have incorrectdefinitions of growth mindset.
But I wanted to highlight that,that, you know, perfectionism is
(11:02):
a symptom
Unknown (11:04):
of it, you know, so the root isn't perfectionism, per
se, it
Becca Silver (11:10):
could, it could, right? Perfectionism can come
from multiple things. But yeah,if if you someone that's
listening, is suffering fromperfectionism the need to do it.
Right, right. You might haveimpostor syndrome, kind of
fueling that, is that I guess,
Unknown (11:26):
absolutely, there's a really significant correlation
between perfectionism and animpostor syndrome. And I think
one of the things that I thinkis so important to recognize is
that oftentimes perfectionism isantithetical to learning. And so
like, what is teaching you ismastery, get get this right, get
it right all the time. And itreally doesn't allow you to make
mistakes, and really appreciatethe importance of failure and
(11:46):
mistakes and growth. And that,you know, I kind of hoped
nowadays that I'm in anotherposition with my own imposter
syndrome, I kind of hope I'malways failing and making
mistakes, because otherwise, itsuggests that I'm in a, in a bad
place, I'm stuck in some otherplace. And like, you know, if
you follow me on Instagram, orany of these other places, like
you'll see constant typos in mywork, not on purpose, but but
(12:08):
I'm doing things very fast, andI've got a lot going on. So I
sometimes don't double andtriple check. So there's a type
of, and I used to get a lot ofheat, because you know, my
audience is largelyperfectionistic. And they
wouldn't say kind of mean thingsabout it. I think I've learned
to realize like, they're intheir own process of hopefully
healing from theirperfectionism. And I can't live
like that. Because if I do lesscontent will come from me, less
(12:29):
effort, less support of thecommunity, I need to be there in
an imperfect way, or I'm notgoing to be able to support you,
because I have to get it allperfect. It's going to be a
while before you get it.
Becca Silver (12:39):
Right. And what I hear is, you know, you're more
committed to making a really bigimpact than doing things
perfectly. Right. And sometimesit's a trade off. Like, what are
you actually more committed to?
Yes, you know, looking good,right? Because perfectionism is
a shield. Yeah, and you know,need to look good. And it's
like, are you willing to reducethe level of impact you have on
(13:00):
other people to essentially lookgood, and protect yourself.
Unknown (13:05):
And also to like, you'd be looking good on the outside,
but you feel like garbage on theinside, you feel like garbage on
the inside. It's not making youfeel great to be perfect. It is
awful. And so I also don't wantto agree to that either. I don't
want to look great on theoutside and feel like garbage on
the inside. I really want tofeel good on the inside. And I'm
a little messy on the outsidebecause I can do right now.
Becca Silver (13:27):
Right. Right. And that's, that's it's really about
the I just keep coming back tolike it. It's not only that it's
the best that you can do rightnow. Right? Because a goal is
never perfection. Yeah. It'sreally is about making a
difference.
Unknown (13:39):
Yes. Yeah. And really making the impact. And that's
what I always remember about thework is like when someone has
like, I've had people say like,How dare you write a book when
you're when you clearly can'tspell or whatever. And I think
it hurts. But I think that oneof the things I remember is all
the people who write me and belike, who changed my life, like,
following your book has turnedmy life around. Like, that's
(14:01):
what I'm trying to do. Like if Iif I spell your without the
apostrophe Ra, you know, like, Idon't think that's stopping
someone from actually getting mypoint. But I think you know, if
I don't share my point thatstops him from getting my point.
100% of the time. Yes. Yeah.
It's something that's beenreally powerful for me to learn
over the process of getting overmy own impostor syndrome.
Becca Silver (14:21):
Yeah. Okay. So I'd love for my coaches and leaders
to hear if they're reallyidentified, this is resonating.
Like this is me, right? I sufferfrom impostor syndrome, what can
they do to help themselves? Yes,so
Unknown (14:35):
I think one of the things that I really suggest is
really figuring out sort of whyit came to be I think that is
really important because thereason why it looks the way it
does today, oftentimes peoplelike Oh, it's my boss is
triggering me in this workenvironment. That's the trigger
that's not why I got startedusually got sorted from some
other reason. I think alsoreally learning how to kind of
(14:55):
change your narrative and watchyour narrative and, and really
be careful about how you speakThink about yourself to others,
and how you speak about yourselfto to yourself, because
oftentimes there's a massivedisconnect from how people
perceive you and how youperceive yourself. And part of
realigning up that narrative is,is working on overcoming him. We
talked about sort of dealingwith automatic negative thoughts
(15:16):
and really, really challengingthem. You know, one of my
favorite quotes by AMI Ray is,you are not your thoughts.
You're the observer of yourthoughts, and really learning
how to observe your thoughts notas truth but as thoughts. And
are they useful for me? Are theyhelpful? Are there other ways
for me to think about thissituation that might be more
productive? And how can I readnarrate those things?
Becca Silver (15:36):
Because it's yeah, it's not the truth? No, it's
never we've
Unknown (15:39):
we've come to believe that whatever we think is the
truth. And it's not, you know,and I think really is trying to
look at the facts and look athow to how to understand
something as facts, because oneof the other things that there's
a there's an automatic negativethought, which we won't actually
talk about in the book that Italk about a lot otherwise
called the inability todisconfirm. And so we will
engage in trying to disconfirmthe the the thought is
(16:03):
irrational, we will always willsay, well, actually, I can prove
that my rational thought istrue. Because like this person
said, I wasn't good at that, orthat the grab onto, like, these
really thin lines that try toprove that that we're as bad as
we think we are. And reallylearning to kind of get into a
point of challenging that, like,is that serving you is that
doing any good for you is likekeeping you stuck in a place.
(16:26):
You don't want to be in thefirst place. And so it's really
a process to really contrast thefacts, even if you can see them
as facts, trusting them is awhole new ballgame.
Becca Silver (16:35):
Yeah. And it makes me think of confirmation bias.
Yeah. So it's like we make adecision. We have an
interpretation about life, astory about ourselves or about
life, and then we find proofthat it's true. See, it's true.
See, it's true, right. And we'refiltering out all the proof that
it's actually not true. Yes.
Unknown (16:51):
Yeah. And I think, you know, recognizing that, you
know, we're engaging in that andbeing able to challenge that
really kind of opens up yourworld. We think we're protecting
ourselves by believing thisthought, but actually, it's
actually narrowing our world isnarrowing the options is
narrowing the possibilities. Butwe broaden our world when we
allow ourselves to be challengedin those thoughts to be
challenged. And so
Becca Silver (17:12):
yeah, well, this conversation has certainly been
educational. For me. This hasbeen so wonderful to learn all
about impostor syndrome. So I'dlove you to share with the
listeners, where can they findyou? You have amazing, I need to
put a little plug in for herInstagram posts. They are so
informational. Everyone's likejuicy full of really useful
(17:33):
stuff. So tell them where theycan find
Unknown (17:35):
you. Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at Dr. Obey Austin,
and I'm on LinkedIn, too. SoLisa RBL, so you can find me I'm
on LinkedIn. I just started aYouTube channel. So I'm also on
YouTube. Yeah, and so like, I'mjust always trying to share
information so people can reallyit's accessible. It's, it's, you
know, credible, it's based onresearch. I don't like just spew
(17:57):
stuff. And so I really thinkit's really important to kind of
do that and publicly share.
Becca Silver (18:01):
Love that and I will put all your information as
links in the show notes as well,so it's easy to kind of click
and follow you I highlyrecommend following Dr. Orby
Austin. So thank you so much forbeing here on the show and
sharing your amazing knowledge
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