May 2, 2025 • 43 mins
Vanessa Caruso and Andy Withrow introduce a new podcast for the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts (VISTA) and promote an upcoming conference titled "Blessed are the undone," featuring keynote speaker Angela Reitsma Bick and pre-conference lecturer Peter Schuurman. The conference, scheduled for May 15 and June 6-7, 2025, will explore the book "Blessed are the undone: testimonies of the quiet deconstruction of faith in Canada," co-authored by Bick and Schuurman. The book discusses the phenomenon of faith deconstruction in Canada, using canoe camping as a metaphor for the spiritual journey. Bick emphasizes the importance of addressing the triggers for deconstruction and the need for reconciliation within the church.
Links:
Blessed Are the Undone Pre-Conference Lecture w/ Peter Schuurman - May 15, 2025
Blessed Are the Undone Conference w/ Angela Reitsma Bick - June 6-7, 2025
Learn more about the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts
Credits:
Coastal Theology Podcast theme performed by Mark Glanville
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Caruso (00:00):
Music. Welcome to coastal theology, a podcast
(00:07):
from the Vancouver Island Schoolof Theology and the arts. We
explore how Christian faith,learning and creativity flourish
on Vancouver Island, and how youcan be part of the story.
Andy Withrow (00:17):
Here we are, Vanessa and Andy at it again.
This is, I think we're going totry to do something a little
different. We're we've beenhosting bear with a podcast
called bear with me for years,and we're starting a new
podcast. We don't know what it'scalled yet, but it's for, we
know that it is for theVancouver Island School of
Theology and the arts, akaVista. VISTA, not Vista, no
(00:41):
Vista, yes, right. And so you'regonna find this podcast in two
spots. If you're with our bearwith me group, you can look for
us on the new podcast, whichdoesn't have a name yet, so good
luck. But we'll probably postsomething at some point, once we
figure that stuff out, hopefullysoon, like in the next few days,
we got to get going here. Sotoday is really exciting,
(01:04):
because we've got a bigconference coming up that we
wanted to promote for VISTA. Andit turns out it's a really good
one,
Vanessa Caruso (01:12):
yes, I am so excited about it, called Blessed
are the undone Yes, and it has abook called Blessed are the
undone testimonies of the quietdeconstruction of faith in
Canada. That's
Andy Withrow (01:26):
right, and it's by Angela reitzma bick and Peter
Sherman. VISTA is hosting aconference. Angela is going to
be the keynote. Peter is cominga few weeks beforehand to do a
pre conference lecture that's onMay 15. We'll have all the
information in the notes on thispodcast, so you can check it
out. Or you can go to www Vistacanada.org, and you'll find all
(01:50):
the information that you needthere. Yes, everything that
VISTA does. But this is the bigone that's coming up here in May
and June of 2025
Vanessa Caruso (01:57):
right? Yes. And we got to interview Angela
writes my book. That's right,which was so exciting, because I
loved the book, and we heard alittle bit more from her and
Vanessa. Thisis the intro. Oh, it's supposed
to be short. No, no, no, no.
It's supposed to be we haven'tdone it yet. In a way, you're
putting the curtain behind.
You're pulling the curtain backas soon. Oh, no, behind the
(02:18):
scenes. So you have to speak inthe future tense, like we're
about to interview. Okay, I betit's gonna be great. It's
probably gonna be really good.
Yeah, I'm guessing, sure way toknow ahead of time. Okay, the
book is blessed. Are the undonetestimonies of the quiet
deconstruction of faith inCanada. As As Vanessa just said,
I'm just gonna read a little bitfrom the back here, and then
(02:40):
I'll then I'll intro Angela.
Canadian Christians frustratedwith the church have come undone
and are leaving politely, almostapologetically. Vanessa, in what
this book dubs a quietdeconstruction, Blessed are the
undone asks what aspects offaith are being questioned and
why? Weaving in church history,cultural analysis and their
personal stories, bick andSherman use canoe camping to
(03:00):
illustrate the twists and turnsof the spiritual journey,
whether you feel like you're upthe creek without a paddle when
it comes to faith, or if peopleyou love have lost their
bearings. This book is for you.
So we both read it. We bothreally liked it. It was super
helpful. Very well researched.
Yeah, well written. And yeah,yeah, helpful. So we're going to
(03:20):
welcome, we're going tointerview and welcome our guest,
Angela Reitz mobik. Angelareitsma bik is editor in chief
of Christian courier and anaward winning journalist
recognized for her workhighlighting social justice
issues. In 2016 she won the ACforest Memorial Award for an
(03:42):
article on female clergy calledthe stained glass ceiling,
followed by the DistinguishedAlumni Award from Redeemer
University. In 2020 she loves toread, hike and camp with her
family, so we welcome AngelaReitz mobik, and right now we're
having trouble with Angela'saudio. So we're going to talk
(04:03):
about what we liked about thebook and see if we need that
sorted out. I love this book. Itwas so helpful, helpfully
descriptive of the Canadiansetting in wider North American
context, and faithdeconstruction kind of what's
been happening in Canada for anumber of years now, and your
book, you co author it withPeter Sherman, sorry, I didn't
(04:25):
have the name inform and Peter'scoming to YES to Victoria, along
with Angela for a conferencecoming up. We'll talk a bit more
about that later. The bookitself, helpfully and painfully,
is honest and sober and hopeful,it's imaginative, it's
(04:46):
constructive. And I came awayreading from reading the book
feeling hopeful and encouraged,which was pretty significant,
because this is a topic thatfeels heavy for most of us, or a
lot of us, whether we're in thechurch setting, whether we're
pastor. Whether we're leaders inthe church, or whether we're
going through just a season ofdisorientation with our in
relationship to God and ourfaith in the church and all
(05:07):
those sorts of things. So I wasvery impressed, and I found the
book very helpful.
Same Andy. Andy told me how goodit was, and so I read it, and
then I was so surprised, I'm notsure why. Maybe because I I had
heard that this is a book aboutdeconstruction and that there
were interviews. So I justthought, Oh, these are going to
(05:28):
be hard stories, one afteranother just kind of left there
to be undone with. And I guessthat was my assumption. So I was
so surprised how thoughtfullythe two of you stewarded all of
those stories and wove them intolike, a greater point of view.
And I was surprised by howinspiring it was. Like, I got
(05:52):
really excited. I didn't thinkI'd finish the book and feel so
excited. I thought I'd feel alittle bit depressed or
something. But I was like, thesefeel like the 95 thesis that
Martin Luther nailed on the dooror whatever, especially there's
this part towards the end whereyou do suggest some ways
forward. And there's like, areally assertive voice and and a
(06:13):
light hearted voice. It's notlike you have to, the church has
to do this, but it's like, hereare some suggestions. And I was
like, these feel like they'relike 13 theses that the church
needs. So I was surprised bythat and by the compassion. Like
I just felt like, Wow, what acompassionate, appreciative,
affirmative take ondeconstruction and on those who
(06:37):
are undone and lost andwandering so thoroughly
surprised and glad to talk aboutit with you, Angela or
Andy Withrow (06:44):
Angela, perhaps, let's start with the question,
what can you tell us? What doesit mean to be undone? This
Angela Reitsma Bick (06:52):
was a word we coined, at least in this
usage, to kind of parallel thevernacular of the nones and
dones. So sociologists, whenthey study, you know, how many
people in a certain area havefaith? The nuns are those who
pick no religion on the Censusand Canadian data, right? But,
but we felt like, well, that'snot good enough just the metrics
(07:14):
of bums in pews at church. Likewe need to know more than that.
So it felt like a new categorywas needed to describe the type
of experience of having yourfaith undone. So you're raised
in the church, there's a timeperiod where everything there
matters a lot to you, butwhether actively or passively,
faith has fallen apart. And sothat word conveys some of the
(07:37):
devastation, I think, in thatexperience, and some of the
distance between the individualand their community, but we
think that idea of being undoneis kind of a growing demographic
that needs more research. Soit's also an invitation to other
scholars and pastors and peopleare interested in this to
understand what what happenswhen you lose ties with the
(07:58):
church structure that you wereraised in? Hmm?
Vanessa Caruso (08:04):
I moved here and you talk about that because even
I don't, I don't know Englishgrammar enough to know what
tense this word is undone orwhatever, but there's that
prefix on and then this worddone. And so to choose to put
those together does feel like itcaptures, to me, the, I don't
(08:25):
know how to say it, but like thenature of loss, the experience
of loss, for those who have lostties, and it just feels the
opposite of like wrapped up in abow. It's like something is kind
of lying there open, yep.
Andy Withrow (08:41):
And I think in the book, you said it comes from the
Beatitudes. Was it the Messagetranslation, I can't remember,
Vanessa Caruso (08:48):
or Isaiah, yeah.
It's
Angela Reitsma Bick (08:50):
Isaiah, yeah. I believe he says, Woe to
me, for I am undone. I think theonly other time it comes up is
in the sense of, forgive us forthings we have left undone.
That's a prayer as well, whichis kind of interesting.
Vanessa Caruso (09:10):
It's so beautiful that very early on in
the book, deconstruction andbeing undone is kind of cast in
this more appreciative light. Iremember you quoting Jamie
Smith, who's like one of ourfavorite authors, so that was
fun. And he calls deconstructiona deeply affirmative mode of
(09:30):
critique, attentive to the wayin which texts and structures
and institutions marginal,marginalize and exclude the
other, with an eye towardsreconstruction and
reconstituting thoseinstitutions and practices. I
mean to say that deconstructionis a deeply affirmative mode is
(09:51):
so surprising because there canbe connotations with those who
deconstruct like they're beingcareless or immature. Or rash or
something like that, rather thanpotentially something bigger
going on, like a propheticundertaking that's for the sake
of something more beautiful andmore true in the future?
Angela Reitsma Bick (10:16):
Yeah, I think maybe that's what you were
thinking of. Andy with theSermon on the Mount section,
like, that's the other half ofour title, and that is from the
Beatitudes. So the blessing thatcomes along with being undone.
So Peter and I call theBeatitudes a New Testament,
under understanding of blessing,and it so it's not the same as
(10:36):
in the Old Testament. Godblesses King David or the
Israelites or job. And if we'rehonest, that Old Testament
blessing is kind of what we wantand what we want for our
churches. But then in the beingundone is closer to a New
Testament kind of blessing theway in Matthew 25 that Jesus
blesses the poor in spirit andthe meek and the persecuted. And
(10:59):
I think that fits better for usas Christians in Canada today,
because our context is closer tothe Israelites when they were in
exile, not when they were intheir heyday, right? So our
churches are shrinking. Ourpastors have failed us. We're
scattered. We might feel likewe're in exile and but there
still is in that experience ameasure of blessing, and it
(11:20):
might look different. It mightmean humility, or leaning on
God, trusting not in our kingsor mega churches, but in
something else.
Andy Withrow (11:32):
Yeah, yeah. And on this topic, you were, you're
chatting about a little bitearlier, but this idea that
perhaps this isn't you get inthe book early on. Perhaps this
isn't that abnormal, actually,that this is maybe a normal
process of faith development isany even just more broader any
(11:53):
kind of maturity just requiresas we get older, the world view
we grew up with as kids justdoesn't hold water anymore, and
it needs to be loosened up, ifit needs to be undone a bit, and
retested and refined and andtaken up again. I think this is
in what chapter was this. Thiswas we were all in chapters
(12:17):
early on. Yeah, it's our firmconviction that some sort of
deconstruction is normal forgrowth, whether it takes the
shape of falling away repentanceor the quiet reconstruction that
we call sanctification. This istrue in my life. I mean, it was
before, I mean, I was an Englishmajor. So deconstruction, that
in the 90s and 2000s was for me,a very literary thing that you
(12:40):
studied and read about. I had toin my early 20s. I had, I had a
reorientation of my faith, andit was a season of dislocation
and disorientation that I didn'thave the language of
deconstruction around that. Butthat's what it was. And so, so I
that just resonated with me thatthis, this seems like a healthy,
(13:02):
normal part of of people growingup in in their faith?
Angela Reitsma Bick (13:06):
Yeah, it's not a synonym for deconversion,
right? But some people treat itthat way. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (13:12):
that's right. And I think, my, I think the fear as
pastors can be that because, andyou write about this too,
because there's a whole industryout there now for around
deconstruction, that you'relosing people to this thing
unnecessarily, when, like,aren't you just growing up in
your faith? But it can, as apastor, you might, you're kind
(13:33):
of losing authority in thisprocess, necessarily, because
it, in some ways, it is anindividual thing that's that you
have to let people do, orthere's a tension there, at
least, for sure,
Vanessa Caruso (13:48):
I loved that part, the kind of prophetic edge
of, I forget what the chapterwas called, with tithing in
Angela Reitsma Bick (13:56):
it. Oh, add to cart.
Vanessa Caruso (13:59):
Yes, add to cart. And just like you both
talking about how kind ofinherent in deconstruction is
getting back to the other andjust relations with the other.
And so who is deconstructionserving? And when there is a
subculture and a consumerculture around deconstruction,
(14:23):
yeah, you know, are there waysthat we could even deconstruct?
Yeah, a little bit with withmore justice, yeah, and with
more mercy. So that partsurprised me, the the reality,
like how America or the UnitedStates just felt so big, like I
wrote down in the margins of thebook at one place, like stand
(14:46):
down like your shadow. You'rejust like encroaching all of the
things to buy and to do and tothink and the volume, and we
should self disclose right nowthat we're both. Yes, from the
United States. Okay, Andy, yeah,sorry. Andy has been here for so
(15:07):
long. I'm, like, almost 10 yearsin and a permanent resident, but
so even so, I'm just admittingthat the canadianness of this
book was really amazing to read,and I felt this like a
zealousness for deconstructionto be able to happen locally and
(15:27):
with more justice. Yeah,
Angela Reitsma Bick (15:30):
yeah. Just to pick up on two threads there,
I think the same way people canassume deconstruction equals
deconversion and then thereforeis negative, you can go the
opposite and kind of glorify itand say, Oh, it's wonderful, and
you have to do it. And that'swhat that chapter Add to Cart
pushes against. It's not thesolution to everything. And and
when it happens only online, youlose you lose that community.
(15:52):
Embodied community, right? Andso we had conservative readers
say they really appreciated thatchapter, because otherwise it's
they don't want to wholesaleacceptance. There's some
pushback on that section, too,and what you're saying? Andy, I
think if, if at the local churchlevel, you can have smaller
health smaller deconstructionsalong the way, like, let's say
(16:14):
in your youth group, there'savenues and opportunities for
faith formation that exploresome of these topics. And then
it can be healthy to have thoseearly and bit by bit. And then
it's less devastating. It's notone big thing that happens mid
20s or something, yeah,
Andy Withrow (16:32):
or in even teaching, teaching ourselves and
our youth how to have thoseconversations, that the church
is a place for this. Yeah, it'sthe it's a it's a great, maybe
the best place for it, in a lotof ways. But the this, the some
of the damning aspects of yourbook, is that the church has so
not been that space for so manypeople who who have to go
(16:56):
outside of it to find to figureout what's going on, to find
truth. Ironically, where thechurch should be the champion of
truth in some of this, and it'sprobably around that chapter. I
think for me, some of what youguys were getting at in the
(17:20):
book, begs the question, shouldwe be deconstructing American
culture in its appetite forcertainty, as much as as
deconstructing our our ownpersonal faith? Because the one
of the things that came up forme is is that we, if there's no
room for discussion, we becausesome of the maybe an idol, an
(17:42):
idol of the Church, has beencertainty and no no doubt and no
questioning, that sometimes someof the commercialization of the
industry of deconstruction, justit's the same. It's the other
side of the coin, yes, just inthe opposite direction. In the
idols, the idol remains of wejust want to be held and certain
(18:05):
in this space and have controland know. And so much of, when
you read through the scripturesand you follow this Jesus, so
much of it is not certain, somuch of it is not in your
control. And some of that's thepoint anyway, that I had never
thought of it that way before.
But just just hearing some ofthe stories and in some of the
(18:26):
stats from from the book, justlike, wow, there's, there's a
bigger idol here, it seems, forfor us in the church and outside
of the church,
Angela Reitsma Bick (18:37):
for sure, I think there's a lot you could
add to that too. It's not onlycelebrity culture, kind of that
we've inherited or taken on asour own. The American Dream that
we talked touched on already,maybe a bit of Christian
nationalism. And then if, ifwe're honest about the
statistics, just we have lesspower in Canada, right? We have,
there's fewer Christians, youknow, per capita, than in the
(19:00):
States. So so if we borrow alltheir curriculum and keynote
speakers and books, then thosethings don't quite fit here. And
so what's different aboutCanada, and how can we talk
about
Andy Withrow (19:12):
that? Yeah, that's good.
Vanessa Caruso (19:15):
Angela, what surprised you about writing the
book like you went in with somuch vision, it seems like, and
then your camping metaphorthroughout the book felt like it
made a lot of space for livingit all out, you know, like it
felt like it was unfolding. Soit made me wonder, what were you
(19:40):
not expecting, or what surprisedyou?
Angela Reitsma Bick (19:44):
Yeah, it took us a long time to get to a
definition of deconstruction,and I think part of that is
because everyone uses itdifferently and they mean
different things. And probablyone of the things that surprised
me the most was how weeventually developed this in.
Are two ways of understandingit, so the individual and the
institutional. And that's, I seethat as really one of the main
(20:06):
theses of the book, that theseindividual stories, that's where
we started talking to people andgathering their stories, but
putting them together helped uscreate this prophetic call for
the church and all Christianinstitutions, and that, like we
didn't plan on that in thebeginning, but I but I think
that it does help to explain alot of the struggles of current
(20:26):
denominations and and Christianinstitutions and so. So those
two angles or approaches, yeah,we didn't see that coming.
Andy Withrow (20:42):
There's some quotes from the book Jesus only
died for failures. Become afailure admitting church,
Vanessa Caruso (20:49):
yeah, and not as self where is it? Rather than a
self justifying church, we needto stop being a self justifying
church and become a failureadmitting church.
Andy Withrow (21:00):
So that that led us to beg the question for you,
Angela, was there any failuresin this project?
Angela Reitsma Bick (21:08):
Yeah, that's a good question. I didn't
really write anything out forthat one, but I did think about
it a lot. Took us three ourpublisher might say the timeline
we we in the beginning saidwe'll be done in a year, and
that was completely ridiculous.
It took us three years, and my,one of my sisters, teaches
middle school, and she has toteach at a Christian school. She
teaches science and sex ed andcreation, and so she was
(21:33):
annoyed. She said, Well, youshould have talked to me before
writing those chapters, which Ididn't do. So yeah, and we've
had a little bit of pushback onnot taking a stand in the
chapter on LGBTQ issues because,but that was a deliberate choice
to to focus on what we heardfrom the people we spoke to,
(21:55):
which was their the real issuewas not support or asking to
change. It was just thetreatment, just to so to keep it
simple, so there's entire booksand libraries on that issue, and
that was not our our mandate,but just to be very specific,
and to keep that, to stay in ourlane on that topic, was it was
(22:18):
deliberate, but not alwaysappreciating
Vanessa Caruso (22:25):
those don't sound like really juicy,
but I appreciate you sharingsome of them right now. For us,
it's Easter Week, and I wasreally inspired towards the end
of the book about the quotesfrom Ronald rolheiser. I love
(22:46):
that book. What is it called aholy longing? Maybe, where these
quotes about like our inner fireand desire. You know that we're
all hungry, and it's a matter ofwhat we do with our hunger and
our desire. And you also quotedEugene, oh no, it would be
Wendell Berry's poem aboutpracticing resurrection, the bad
(23:09):
farmers Liberation Front thatends with practice resurrection.
So I just wondered for you,Angela, if you have any like
inspiration right now aboutpracticing resurrection in your
own context and community and ornow that this three year project
is done, like, where's yourhunger? What's your fire?
(23:31):
Where's it going?
Angela Reitsma Bick (23:33):
Those are such great questions. And I
didn't write these out perfectlyeither, but I can, I think I can
say a little something. I in myday job. I'm editor of a faith
based publication calledChristian career, and we just
published this Easter issue withthe front page story, or it was
a reflection by Brian Walsh,who's a pastor and and a poet,
(23:54):
and it was a poem calledresurrection in the ruins. So
I've just been thinking aboutthat idea that he, he, he kind
of rewrites Isaiah 65 where theIsraelites have come back and
everything is in shambles andthey have to rebuild. And I know
that for some people, it feelslike their church or the
denomination or their ministryis kind of in that stage. But
(24:17):
he, and so he goes through theproblems and but then lists like
the areas of hope, and how canwe, how can there be
resurrection, even there? And,of course, we believe that there
is and so, SO to SO, thepractice part just comes, I
think, from, from not allowingthe world or ourselves to just
(24:39):
to just sit there in the ruinsand and only see the ruins, but
to look around for evidence ofthe resurrection, and to
practice, you know, to make itpossible, to do what you can
even in the middle of that. So,yeah, like in my in my family
there, you know, there can be,there can be. Problems there can
(25:00):
be, you know, elderly parents orbills. Are you worried about the
future? Or I gave a talk inToronto a couple weeks ago on
the book, and our My car gottowed the like these things. You
know, the brokenness of theworld is always there and it's
always real, but there still isjoy in the midst of that, and
(25:21):
God is still at work. And thenin terms of the inner fire, I
think, I think this particularmoment now, you'll have to tell
me what you think as Americansliving in Canada, but like we
are in really interesting timeshistorically. Right between this
relationship between Canada andthe US is It's tense in ways
(25:41):
that are new and different. Andone interesting but potentially
positive side effect is a bitmore Canadian patriotism, right?
So, so what does that mean forchurches like can any of that
energy be harnessed for gooddiscussion about what it means
to be, to be, to have yourchurch be where it is. If, if
(26:02):
you've always used all yourmaterial from the state, like,
maybe, maybe this is the time tosay, well, could we have a
budget? What's in our library?
What are we preaching from? Whatare people reading? All those
kinds of things.
Vanessa Caruso (26:16):
Love that.
Andy Withrow (26:19):
Yeah, I like, like, the image of more of a
home cooked meal than, you know,the canned soup all the time,
yeah, sometimes you need it ortake out or take out, yeah,
eating a little healthier. Yeah?
What is, yeah, maybe, as forpastors and for church
leadership, taking a bit of arisk there. And what is, what is
the Spirit of God speaking to usif we become over reliant on,
(26:41):
you know, on our on our heroesand in other places, that's
good.
Vanessa Caruso (26:51):
Well, I feel like we should talk about the
conference coming up. Angela
Andy Withrow (26:56):
is coming to Victoria, yes,
Vanessa Caruso (26:58):
yeah. I'm very excited soon. Yeah. So exciting
in June.
Andy Withrow (27:01):
Do you have the dates? Do you have the I think
it's
Vanessa Caruso (27:04):
the sixth and seventh. Yes. Does that sound
right? Yeah, that's right. Okay.
What will that be like, thatconference, and who should come?
Well,
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:16):
I have a question for you, what are the
what's the likelihood of whalesbeing nearby at that time of
year because my daughter's soexcited. Our best,
Vanessa Caruso (27:24):
yes, okay, yeah, called, I think flying into
Vancouver and taking the ferryover. Yeah,
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:33):
that's what we're doing. Okay, okay,
perfect.
Vanessa Caruso (27:37):
Cue the whales.
That's what I'll try to do. I
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:40):
think it's ecumenical, right? People from
all over any different churchesare coming and that, that's a
really cool part of of what'shappening. And I think that's
the way forward for Christianityin Canada, honestly, is to work
together, rather than littletiny groups struggling on their
own all over the place, just,you're right, yeah, kind of pool
our resources. And speaking ofrelationships, I'm going to talk
(28:05):
about reconciliation. So anotherway to look at in the book,
Peter and I talk about theseseven triggers, which are the
reasons why people deconstruct.
But if you flip those and gothrough kind of addressing those
issues, then each of them haveto do with writing, the
relationship, you know, betweentwo parties, so between with
each other. You talked about.
(28:25):
Jamie Smith says deconstructionis a turn to the other. And with
the earth we talk about in thebook, and with God so that, so
that reconciliation can addressthe deconstruction. And then
what I think is really helpfulis if we look at Ecclesiastes
and just say what time is it foryour church? And maybe figure
out which of the triggers it's ait's overwhelming to think about
(28:48):
all of them, but maybe there'sjust one or two that are the
most urgent in your context, andthen there's the necessary
reconciliation there. So that'sto me, that's the hopeful angle.
This the same thing in the book,where we don't just talk about
the problems, we don't staythere. But what does it mean for
the Canadian church? What can wedo about it? Is really what I'd
like to explore.
Vanessa Caruso (29:12):
I love that the medium is kind of the message of
this conference, that just likeyou said, different churches and
communities all gatheringtogether already, just at, you
know, 10 minutes after itstarts, or whatever, there's
already something reparative andhopeful about that I felt very
(29:32):
companioned through the book. Ihaven't gone through
deconstruction in, like, areally extreme way, but just
being part of churches for solong, growing up with a pastor
for a dad and having like littledeaths along the way, I felt
like this was kind of It wasn'tan exit interview for me, but it
(29:54):
had the same feel as like anexit interview, which you might
even say you were providing forpeople. Yeah. So I imagine
people coming just to not bealone, yeah, in that experience
of feeling undone at times overthe years, and sad yeah and
(30:15):
disconnected, like it could bereparative just to be Yeah, with
people who acknowledge that,like some of your your theses
that I love, I won't give themaway because I feel like it's
the climax of the book. But tothose who have questions and
feel adrift, let them freelyexplore. And for those who are
weary from treading water, letthem regain hope. I would think
(30:35):
the conference might do some ofthat just by virtue of being
together,
Angela Reitsma Bick (30:40):
yeah? I think so. I hope so. That's the
prayer for sure.
Andy Withrow (30:47):
Yeah, yeah. So, this is in June. Peter Sherman's
coming in May. It's true for apre, pre conference lecture.
It's May 15, I think. Yeah,nice. So that'll be an evening
lecture, and then, and thenwe'll have this conference on a
weekend, Angela, you're gonna,you're gonna be speaking on
Friday night. Yep, nothing iswasted, finding a measure of
(31:07):
blessing, even in the midst ofconflict and crisis. Yeah. And
then you'll be the keynote forSaturday. There's gonna be a lot
of, I think, different breakoutsessions, different speakers. So
big event, you'll be thekeynote, and I'm just gonna read
your what you had sent is yourtitle? If that's the title, good
question, faith that allows roomfor doubt, pastors who admit
their mistakes and liturgy witha built in time for
(31:30):
reconciliation, those will soundfascinating to me. Yes, these
are just a few of the ways thatCanadian churches can become
more reconstruction friendly.
Can hope be born in the face ofdespair. Can there be, to quote
Brian Walsh, resurrection amongthe ruins, which you just talked
about, what would it look likeif churches were a place where
small deconstructions happenedregularly alongside ongoing
reconstruction? There's a lot ofa lot of space to explore here,
(31:53):
I think, both for church leadersand for for Christians, who are
kind of all over the map interms of how they relate to this
question of faithdeconstruction, whether they're
going through it themselves, theundone process, or, I know a lot
in in my community, it's, it'soften walking with friends or
family members who are who aredisoriented, and going through
(32:15):
that process. So
Vanessa Caruso (32:18):
that's exciting.
I love your description. That's
Andy Withrow (32:22):
why I read it.
Thank you. Yes,
Vanessa Caruso (32:25):
and I love nothing is wasted. That's such a
great title. Thank you.
Angela Reitsma Bick (32:33):
Yeah, maybe a shorter way to say the same
thing is we, we have a mix ofdata stories, and then I get,
I'm a kind of a metaphor addict.
So any metaphor I can find. I'lljust play around with it for a
while, and that'll be part of mytalk.
Vanessa Caruso (32:45):
Amazing. Yeah, the camping theme, I didn't I
didn't know camping until Icamped with Canadians, and now
it's part of my life, and it'ssuch a good line throughout the
whole book, and the picture ofthat canoe that resurfaces? Yes,
he's
Angela Reitsma Bick (33:03):
the hopeful guy. He's heading somewhere new.
The guy on the front, he's onPortage,
Vanessa Caruso (33:07):
yeah, so you already mentioned that you work
for a Christian publication. Soif people like me are like, wow,
I really responded well to yourwriting and to your particular
vision and passion, where andhow can we stay connected to
(33:27):
your work?
Angela Reitsma Bick (33:30):
My publication is called Christian
courier. So Christian courier.caYou can search for my name or
just have fun reading all thevariety of articles there. It's
It's news from a Christianperspective. We're one of the
only faith based independentnews publications left in
Canada. And then I have awebsite, which is Angela
writesma bic.ca and there's acouple of links there to another
(33:52):
podcast I was on, and some talksthat have been saved on YouTube.
And I'm working on a Spotifyplaylist that will be there
eventually with songs you know,singer songwriters who have
wrestled kind of with the giftsand failures of church. And
that's just a side project, butit's lots of
Vanessa Caruso (34:10):
fun, cool a playlist. And do you want to
leave us with any words ofencouragement for anyone
listening who might feel in themiddle of being undone today?
Angela Reitsma Bick (34:27):
Yeah, I would just say you're in such
good company. I know it can feellike the loneliest place, but
you're if you miss thecommunity, that there's not one
there, like what you left. Butothers have reached these shores
in the camping metaphor. There'san author that I love, Nora.
He'll Hudson. She says, someyears are the questions, some
(34:49):
years are the answers. I think,just give yourself permission to
hang out in the questions for awhile. And that's that can be
holy ground.
Unknown (34:58):
Hmm.
Vanessa Caruso (35:00):
Yeah, that's a beautiful blessing. It reminds
me You said somewhere in thebook, not all who wander or
loss, yeah, you know, not allwho are undone are lost, yeah.
Well, thank you so much, Angela,it was so good to talk to you
after you're loving this book.
Andy Withrow (35:22):
The book is called Blessed are the undone. Yes, the
conference is called Blessed arethe undone, right? Okay, just
okay. For consistency sake, it'scoming up. We've got pre
conference lectured May 15. Theconference itself will be in
June. And stay tuned for all ofthat. And yeah, we're excited to
have you, Angela, thanks forspending this time with us, and
(35:43):
we'll see you in about six orseven weeks or so.
Angela Reitsma Bick (35:47):
Okay, thank you for being such good readers
of the book. Oh, happy time. Ourpleasure.
Andy Withrow (35:54):
All right, okay, it's just you. Andy
Vanessa Caruso (35:56):
Vanessa, yes, that was so fun. We haven't done
an interview in a while, so Ifeel like it was
Andy Withrow (36:01):
good to blow the dust off the old interviews.
Exactly.
Vanessa Caruso (36:05):
I am really excited about her talk, yeah,
like nothing is wasted. And thenthat little description you read
like how to be a church that'smore welcoming to
reconstruction, including withinthe liturgy, not just the like
posture, yeah,
Andy Withrow (36:24):
that's right. I think, I think not being afraid
of of what's been called Faithdeconstruction. I think the book
makes an excellent case forsaying this is a this can, and
maybe should be a regular partof maturing faith for all of us
in and you shared a bit about,you know, you didn't have a
(36:45):
cataclysmic Deaconreconstruction of faith, but
you've had these little dyingsalong the way. I made reference
to, you know, when I was in myearly 20s, there was a
disorientation, a reorientation,to to to kind of grow into
something new. So that makes alot of sense to me. Yeah, is
maybe being not afraid toexplore this with those who are
(37:10):
feeling disoriented. Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (37:13):
beautiful. I did witness baptism on Easter
morning, so when you read thedescription of her talk, and my
imagination started going, youknow, I thought, well, this is
like, too cheesy. I don't knowhow you would do it, but it just
made me think, what would itlook like to bless those who are
becoming undone a little bitwithin the community? You know,
(37:35):
we have these other sacramentsfor other stages of faith. What
would it look like to Yeah, forthat to be normal and, you know,
to gather around someone andlike, bless them, yeah, I like
it,
Andy Withrow (37:51):
yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of good
questions and maybe a lot ofunknowns of what it looks like,
because it's just a place toexplore giving even just having
a a space, being a church spacethat allows for and welcomes
questioning, can be challengingfor church leaders, because
(38:12):
that's it's vulnerability, it'suncertainty, but I think it's an
important space to try to leadpeople into and occupy, because
that's how That's how we growup, that's how we learn, yeah,
in all areas of life, andcertainly in how we how we
follow Jesus. So yeah, thatmakes a lot of sense to me.
(38:33):
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (38:34):
it feels exciting to think about what's
on the other side ofdeconstruction and
reconstruction, like you know,what are people like, who have
kind of hit the wall or fallenoff, and then I sense like
people have a little bit moreclarity and maybe a little bit
(38:56):
more courage to have a propheticvoice, or, I don't know, it
feels like very creative what'snext for the church and for
Christians?
Andy Withrow (39:08):
Yeah, I think the thing to add to that is, I
think, in my own experience, ityou come back the other side
with a lot more humility, ohyeah, and openness to to things
being left, some things beingundone. And, yeah, yeah, I guess
(39:30):
just space for that and and opento listening a bit more and
wrestling with things, asopposed to, you know, I think
most of us, myself included, arejust feel more comfortable when
things are certain, definitely.
And so there's a there's anattraction to certainty. Well,
this is, you know, the whole Godsaid it, I believe it. That
(39:51):
settles it for me. It's a nicesentiment, and maybe it's true
for for some things, but, but.
It just doesn't always holdwater, so you need a bit more
space to explore. And I think itseems like God's okay with that.
He's not afraid of those things.
And if anything, maybe he's verymuch in the middle of that
(40:14):
process, it seems, of art comingundone and being reformed.
Vanessa Caruso (40:21):
Yeah, mystery. I kept thinking of, like,
humility, like it like amystery. More comfort, right in
the mystery. I also am impressedthat this was a side project
that they did at nights aftertheir full time jobs. Like, how
inspiring that this is somewhereit could go. Yeah, yeah. If you
(40:41):
said, like, Hey, should we,like, think about deconstruction
and take people's stories, I'dbe like, that sounds like, big
and overwhelming, and what couldit lead to? So I'm inspired by
that like to kind of follow myinterests, yeah, my curiosities
a little bit at a time, for along time, and then it might go
(41:01):
somewhere,
Andy Withrow (41:03):
yeah, well, and maybe that touches in to the
last question you asked Angela,which is, what's, what's, Oh,
yeah. Oh, no one, yeah, desire,what do you have the inner fire
about? Because the that kind ofspeaks to this project.
Obviously, it took a lot ofeffort and energy and focus and
extra time and sacrifice. Sothose questions of, where is,
(41:28):
yeah, where is the Spirit ofGod? Kind of kindling, something
love this individually or as asa community?
Vanessa Caruso (41:35):
That's a good Pentecost question. Yeah.
Kindling a little
Andy Withrow (41:39):
early, yeah. So getting ready for Pentecost,
yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (41:44):
anything else from the conversation you want
to highlight? Or no,
Andy Withrow (41:50):
just that we could have probably talked for hours.
I had, I mean, a lot of thestuff I brought up early on was
just from the first fivechapters of a 23 chapter book, I
think so. Yeah, so there's somuch more there. Recommend, if
you can, I would recommend thisbook, and if you can come to the
conference, I think it'd beworthwhile. For sure, one more
(42:15):
time, registration details willbe www,
Vanessa Caruso (42:19):
www, VISTA, canada.org
Andy Withrow (42:22):
Vista canada.org
Vanessa Caruso (42:25):
Yes, great. You can RSVP. There's discounts for
like, groups of like eight ormore or something, so if you
want to get a bunch of friends,yeah, great, fun. Fun. See you
there.
Andy Withrow (42:37):
Yeah, well, let's do another podcast. Sometime.
Fun. Thanks. Vanessa Bye, AndyBye, everybody.
Vanessa Caruso (42:46):
Thanks for listening to coastal theology, a
podcast from the VancouverIsland School of Theology and
the arts. For more informationon Vista, go to VISTA
canada.org. You.
Music. Welcome to coastal theology, a podcast
(00:07):
from the Vancouver Island Schoolof Theology and the arts. We
explore how Christian faith,learning and creativity flourish
on Vancouver Island, and how youcan be part of the story.
Andy Withrow (00:17):
Here we are, Vanessa and Andy at it again.
This is, I think we're going totry to do something a little
different. We're we've beenhosting bear with a podcast
called bear with me for years,and we're starting a new
podcast. We don't know what it'scalled yet, but it's for, we
know that it is for theVancouver Island School of
Theology and the arts, akaVista. VISTA, not Vista, no
(00:41):
Vista, yes, right. And so you'regonna find this podcast in two
spots. If you're with our bearwith me group, you can look for
us on the new podcast, whichdoesn't have a name yet, so good
luck. But we'll probably postsomething at some point, once we
figure that stuff out, hopefullysoon, like in the next few days,
we got to get going here. Sotoday is really exciting,
(01:04):
because we've got a bigconference coming up that we
wanted to promote for VISTA. Andit turns out it's a really good
one,
Vanessa Caruso (01:12):
yes, I am so excited about it, called Blessed
are the undone Yes, and it has abook called Blessed are the
undone testimonies of the quietdeconstruction of faith in
Canada. That's
Andy Withrow (01:26):
right, and it's by Angela reitzma bick and Peter
Sherman. VISTA is hosting aconference. Angela is going to
be the keynote. Peter is cominga few weeks beforehand to do a
pre conference lecture that's onMay 15. We'll have all the
information in the notes on thispodcast, so you can check it
out. Or you can go to www Vistacanada.org, and you'll find all
(01:50):
the information that you needthere. Yes, everything that
VISTA does. But this is the bigone that's coming up here in May
and June of 2025
Vanessa Caruso (01:57):
right? Yes. And we got to interview Angela
writes my book. That's right,which was so exciting, because I
loved the book, and we heard alittle bit more from her and
Vanessa. Thisis the intro. Oh, it's supposed
to be short. No, no, no, no.
It's supposed to be we haven'tdone it yet. In a way, you're
putting the curtain behind.
You're pulling the curtain backas soon. Oh, no, behind the
(02:18):
scenes. So you have to speak inthe future tense, like we're
about to interview. Okay, I betit's gonna be great. It's
probably gonna be really good.
Yeah, I'm guessing, sure way toknow ahead of time. Okay, the
book is blessed. Are the undonetestimonies of the quiet
deconstruction of faith inCanada. As As Vanessa just said,
I'm just gonna read a little bitfrom the back here, and then
(02:40):
I'll then I'll intro Angela.
Canadian Christians frustratedwith the church have come undone
and are leaving politely, almostapologetically. Vanessa, in what
this book dubs a quietdeconstruction, Blessed are the
undone asks what aspects offaith are being questioned and
why? Weaving in church history,cultural analysis and their
personal stories, bick andSherman use canoe camping to
(03:00):
illustrate the twists and turnsof the spiritual journey,
whether you feel like you're upthe creek without a paddle when
it comes to faith, or if peopleyou love have lost their
bearings. This book is for you.
So we both read it. We bothreally liked it. It was super
helpful. Very well researched.
Yeah, well written. And yeah,yeah, helpful. So we're going to
(03:20):
welcome, we're going tointerview and welcome our guest,
Angela Reitz mobik. Angelareitsma bik is editor in chief
of Christian courier and anaward winning journalist
recognized for her workhighlighting social justice
issues. In 2016 she won the ACforest Memorial Award for an
(03:42):
article on female clergy calledthe stained glass ceiling,
followed by the DistinguishedAlumni Award from Redeemer
University. In 2020 she loves toread, hike and camp with her
family, so we welcome AngelaReitz mobik, and right now we're
having trouble with Angela'saudio. So we're going to talk
(04:03):
about what we liked about thebook and see if we need that
sorted out. I love this book. Itwas so helpful, helpfully
descriptive of the Canadiansetting in wider North American
context, and faithdeconstruction kind of what's
been happening in Canada for anumber of years now, and your
book, you co author it withPeter Sherman, sorry, I didn't
(04:25):
have the name inform and Peter'scoming to YES to Victoria, along
with Angela for a conferencecoming up. We'll talk a bit more
about that later. The bookitself, helpfully and painfully,
is honest and sober and hopeful,it's imaginative, it's
(04:46):
constructive. And I came awayreading from reading the book
feeling hopeful and encouraged,which was pretty significant,
because this is a topic thatfeels heavy for most of us, or a
lot of us, whether we're in thechurch setting, whether we're
pastor. Whether we're leaders inthe church, or whether we're
going through just a season ofdisorientation with our in
relationship to God and ourfaith in the church and all
(05:07):
those sorts of things. So I wasvery impressed, and I found the
book very helpful.
Same Andy. Andy told me how goodit was, and so I read it, and
then I was so surprised, I'm notsure why. Maybe because I I had
heard that this is a book aboutdeconstruction and that there
were interviews. So I justthought, Oh, these are going to
(05:28):
be hard stories, one afteranother just kind of left there
to be undone with. And I guessthat was my assumption. So I was
so surprised how thoughtfullythe two of you stewarded all of
those stories and wove them intolike, a greater point of view.
And I was surprised by howinspiring it was. Like, I got
(05:52):
really excited. I didn't thinkI'd finish the book and feel so
excited. I thought I'd feel alittle bit depressed or
something. But I was like, thesefeel like the 95 thesis that
Martin Luther nailed on the dooror whatever, especially there's
this part towards the end whereyou do suggest some ways
forward. And there's like, areally assertive voice and and a
(06:13):
light hearted voice. It's notlike you have to, the church has
to do this, but it's like, hereare some suggestions. And I was
like, these feel like they'relike 13 theses that the church
needs. So I was surprised bythat and by the compassion. Like
I just felt like, Wow, what acompassionate, appreciative,
affirmative take ondeconstruction and on those who
(06:37):
are undone and lost andwandering so thoroughly
surprised and glad to talk aboutit with you, Angela or
Andy Withrow (06:44):
Angela, perhaps, let's start with the question,
what can you tell us? What doesit mean to be undone? This
Angela Reitsma Bick (06:52):
was a word we coined, at least in this
usage, to kind of parallel thevernacular of the nones and
dones. So sociologists, whenthey study, you know, how many
people in a certain area havefaith? The nuns are those who
pick no religion on the Censusand Canadian data, right? But,
but we felt like, well, that'snot good enough just the metrics
(07:14):
of bums in pews at church. Likewe need to know more than that.
So it felt like a new categorywas needed to describe the type
of experience of having yourfaith undone. So you're raised
in the church, there's a timeperiod where everything there
matters a lot to you, butwhether actively or passively,
faith has fallen apart. And sothat word conveys some of the
(07:37):
devastation, I think, in thatexperience, and some of the
distance between the individualand their community, but we
think that idea of being undoneis kind of a growing demographic
that needs more research. Soit's also an invitation to other
scholars and pastors and peopleare interested in this to
understand what what happenswhen you lose ties with the
(07:58):
church structure that you wereraised in? Hmm?
Vanessa Caruso (08:04):
I moved here and you talk about that because even
I don't, I don't know Englishgrammar enough to know what
tense this word is undone orwhatever, but there's that
prefix on and then this worddone. And so to choose to put
those together does feel like itcaptures, to me, the, I don't
(08:25):
know how to say it, but like thenature of loss, the experience
of loss, for those who have lostties, and it just feels the
opposite of like wrapped up in abow. It's like something is kind
of lying there open, yep.
Andy Withrow (08:41):
And I think in the book, you said it comes from the
Beatitudes. Was it the Messagetranslation, I can't remember,
Vanessa Caruso (08:48):
or Isaiah, yeah.
It's
Angela Reitsma Bick (08:50):
Isaiah, yeah. I believe he says, Woe to
me, for I am undone. I think theonly other time it comes up is
in the sense of, forgive us forthings we have left undone.
That's a prayer as well, whichis kind of interesting.
Vanessa Caruso (09:10):
It's so beautiful that very early on in
the book, deconstruction andbeing undone is kind of cast in
this more appreciative light. Iremember you quoting Jamie
Smith, who's like one of ourfavorite authors, so that was
fun. And he calls deconstructiona deeply affirmative mode of
(09:30):
critique, attentive to the wayin which texts and structures
and institutions marginal,marginalize and exclude the
other, with an eye towardsreconstruction and
reconstituting thoseinstitutions and practices. I
mean to say that deconstructionis a deeply affirmative mode is
(09:51):
so surprising because there canbe connotations with those who
deconstruct like they're beingcareless or immature. Or rash or
something like that, rather thanpotentially something bigger
going on, like a propheticundertaking that's for the sake
of something more beautiful andmore true in the future?
Angela Reitsma Bick (10:16):
Yeah, I think maybe that's what you were
thinking of. Andy with theSermon on the Mount section,
like, that's the other half ofour title, and that is from the
Beatitudes. So the blessing thatcomes along with being undone.
So Peter and I call theBeatitudes a New Testament,
under understanding of blessing,and it so it's not the same as
(10:36):
in the Old Testament. Godblesses King David or the
Israelites or job. And if we'rehonest, that Old Testament
blessing is kind of what we wantand what we want for our
churches. But then in the beingundone is closer to a New
Testament kind of blessing theway in Matthew 25 that Jesus
blesses the poor in spirit andthe meek and the persecuted. And
(10:59):
I think that fits better for usas Christians in Canada today,
because our context is closer tothe Israelites when they were in
exile, not when they were intheir heyday, right? So our
churches are shrinking. Ourpastors have failed us. We're
scattered. We might feel likewe're in exile and but there
still is in that experience ameasure of blessing, and it
(11:20):
might look different. It mightmean humility, or leaning on
God, trusting not in our kingsor mega churches, but in
something else.
Andy Withrow (11:32):
Yeah, yeah. And on this topic, you were, you're
chatting about a little bitearlier, but this idea that
perhaps this isn't you get inthe book early on. Perhaps this
isn't that abnormal, actually,that this is maybe a normal
process of faith development isany even just more broader any
(11:53):
kind of maturity just requiresas we get older, the world view
we grew up with as kids justdoesn't hold water anymore, and
it needs to be loosened up, ifit needs to be undone a bit, and
retested and refined and andtaken up again. I think this is
in what chapter was this. Thiswas we were all in chapters
(12:17):
early on. Yeah, it's our firmconviction that some sort of
deconstruction is normal forgrowth, whether it takes the
shape of falling away repentanceor the quiet reconstruction that
we call sanctification. This istrue in my life. I mean, it was
before, I mean, I was an Englishmajor. So deconstruction, that
in the 90s and 2000s was for me,a very literary thing that you
(12:40):
studied and read about. I had toin my early 20s. I had, I had a
reorientation of my faith, andit was a season of dislocation
and disorientation that I didn'thave the language of
deconstruction around that. Butthat's what it was. And so, so I
that just resonated with me thatthis, this seems like a healthy,
(13:02):
normal part of of people growingup in in their faith?
Angela Reitsma Bick (13:06):
Yeah, it's not a synonym for deconversion,
right? But some people treat itthat way. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (13:12):
that's right. And I think, my, I think the fear as
pastors can be that because, andyou write about this too,
because there's a whole industryout there now for around
deconstruction, that you'relosing people to this thing
unnecessarily, when, like,aren't you just growing up in
your faith? But it can, as apastor, you might, you're kind
(13:33):
of losing authority in thisprocess, necessarily, because
it, in some ways, it is anindividual thing that's that you
have to let people do, orthere's a tension there, at
least, for sure,
Vanessa Caruso (13:48):
I loved that part, the kind of prophetic edge
of, I forget what the chapterwas called, with tithing in
Angela Reitsma Bick (13:56):
it. Oh, add to cart.
Vanessa Caruso (13:59):
Yes, add to cart. And just like you both
talking about how kind ofinherent in deconstruction is
getting back to the other andjust relations with the other.
And so who is deconstructionserving? And when there is a
subculture and a consumerculture around deconstruction,
(14:23):
yeah, you know, are there waysthat we could even deconstruct?
Yeah, a little bit with withmore justice, yeah, and with
more mercy. So that partsurprised me, the the reality,
like how America or the UnitedStates just felt so big, like I
wrote down in the margins of thebook at one place, like stand
(14:46):
down like your shadow. You'rejust like encroaching all of the
things to buy and to do and tothink and the volume, and we
should self disclose right nowthat we're both. Yes, from the
United States. Okay, Andy, yeah,sorry. Andy has been here for so
(15:07):
long. I'm, like, almost 10 yearsin and a permanent resident, but
so even so, I'm just admittingthat the canadianness of this
book was really amazing to read,and I felt this like a
zealousness for deconstructionto be able to happen locally and
(15:27):
with more justice. Yeah,
Angela Reitsma Bick (15:30):
yeah. Just to pick up on two threads there,
I think the same way people canassume deconstruction equals
deconversion and then thereforeis negative, you can go the
opposite and kind of glorify itand say, Oh, it's wonderful, and
you have to do it. And that'swhat that chapter Add to Cart
pushes against. It's not thesolution to everything. And and
when it happens only online, youlose you lose that community.
(15:52):
Embodied community, right? Andso we had conservative readers
say they really appreciated thatchapter, because otherwise it's
they don't want to wholesaleacceptance. There's some
pushback on that section, too,and what you're saying? Andy, I
think if, if at the local churchlevel, you can have smaller
health smaller deconstructionsalong the way, like, let's say
(16:14):
in your youth group, there'savenues and opportunities for
faith formation that exploresome of these topics. And then
it can be healthy to have thoseearly and bit by bit. And then
it's less devastating. It's notone big thing that happens mid
20s or something, yeah,
Andy Withrow (16:32):
or in even teaching, teaching ourselves and
our youth how to have thoseconversations, that the church
is a place for this. Yeah, it'sthe it's a it's a great, maybe
the best place for it, in a lotof ways. But the this, the some
of the damning aspects of yourbook, is that the church has so
not been that space for so manypeople who who have to go
(16:56):
outside of it to find to figureout what's going on, to find
truth. Ironically, where thechurch should be the champion of
truth in some of this, and it'sprobably around that chapter. I
think for me, some of what youguys were getting at in the
(17:20):
book, begs the question, shouldwe be deconstructing American
culture in its appetite forcertainty, as much as as
deconstructing our our ownpersonal faith? Because the one
of the things that came up forme is is that we, if there's no
room for discussion, we becausesome of the maybe an idol, an
(17:42):
idol of the Church, has beencertainty and no no doubt and no
questioning, that sometimes someof the commercialization of the
industry of deconstruction, justit's the same. It's the other
side of the coin, yes, just inthe opposite direction. In the
idols, the idol remains of wejust want to be held and certain
(18:05):
in this space and have controland know. And so much of, when
you read through the scripturesand you follow this Jesus, so
much of it is not certain, somuch of it is not in your
control. And some of that's thepoint anyway, that I had never
thought of it that way before.
But just just hearing some ofthe stories and in some of the
(18:26):
stats from from the book, justlike, wow, there's, there's a
bigger idol here, it seems, forfor us in the church and outside
of the church,
Angela Reitsma Bick (18:37):
for sure, I think there's a lot you could
add to that too. It's not onlycelebrity culture, kind of that
we've inherited or taken on asour own. The American Dream that
we talked touched on already,maybe a bit of Christian
nationalism. And then if, ifwe're honest about the
statistics, just we have lesspower in Canada, right? We have,
there's fewer Christians, youknow, per capita, than in the
(19:00):
States. So so if we borrow alltheir curriculum and keynote
speakers and books, then thosethings don't quite fit here. And
so what's different aboutCanada, and how can we talk
about
Andy Withrow (19:12):
that? Yeah, that's good.
Vanessa Caruso (19:15):
Angela, what surprised you about writing the
book like you went in with somuch vision, it seems like, and
then your camping metaphorthroughout the book felt like it
made a lot of space for livingit all out, you know, like it
felt like it was unfolding. Soit made me wonder, what were you
(19:40):
not expecting, or what surprisedyou?
Angela Reitsma Bick (19:44):
Yeah, it took us a long time to get to a
definition of deconstruction,and I think part of that is
because everyone uses itdifferently and they mean
different things. And probablyone of the things that surprised
me the most was how weeventually developed this in.
Are two ways of understandingit, so the individual and the
institutional. And that's, I seethat as really one of the main
(20:06):
theses of the book, that theseindividual stories, that's where
we started talking to people andgathering their stories, but
putting them together helped uscreate this prophetic call for
the church and all Christianinstitutions, and that, like we
didn't plan on that in thebeginning, but I but I think
that it does help to explain alot of the struggles of current
(20:26):
denominations and and Christianinstitutions and so. So those
two angles or approaches, yeah,we didn't see that coming.
Andy Withrow (20:42):
There's some quotes from the book Jesus only
died for failures. Become afailure admitting church,
Vanessa Caruso (20:49):
yeah, and not as self where is it? Rather than a
self justifying church, we needto stop being a self justifying
church and become a failureadmitting church.
Andy Withrow (21:00):
So that that led us to beg the question for you,
Angela, was there any failuresin this project?
Angela Reitsma Bick (21:08):
Yeah, that's a good question. I didn't
really write anything out forthat one, but I did think about
it a lot. Took us three ourpublisher might say the timeline
we we in the beginning saidwe'll be done in a year, and
that was completely ridiculous.
It took us three years, and my,one of my sisters, teaches
middle school, and she has toteach at a Christian school. She
teaches science and sex ed andcreation, and so she was
(21:33):
annoyed. She said, Well, youshould have talked to me before
writing those chapters, which Ididn't do. So yeah, and we've
had a little bit of pushback onnot taking a stand in the
chapter on LGBTQ issues because,but that was a deliberate choice
to to focus on what we heardfrom the people we spoke to,
(21:55):
which was their the real issuewas not support or asking to
change. It was just thetreatment, just to so to keep it
simple, so there's entire booksand libraries on that issue, and
that was not our our mandate,but just to be very specific,
and to keep that, to stay in ourlane on that topic, was it was
(22:18):
deliberate, but not alwaysappreciating
Vanessa Caruso (22:25):
those don't sound like really juicy,
but I appreciate you sharingsome of them right now. For us,
it's Easter Week, and I wasreally inspired towards the end
of the book about the quotesfrom Ronald rolheiser. I love
(22:46):
that book. What is it called aholy longing? Maybe, where these
quotes about like our inner fireand desire. You know that we're
all hungry, and it's a matter ofwhat we do with our hunger and
our desire. And you also quotedEugene, oh no, it would be
Wendell Berry's poem aboutpracticing resurrection, the bad
(23:09):
farmers Liberation Front thatends with practice resurrection.
So I just wondered for you,Angela, if you have any like
inspiration right now aboutpracticing resurrection in your
own context and community and ornow that this three year project
is done, like, where's yourhunger? What's your fire?
(23:31):
Where's it going?
Angela Reitsma Bick (23:33):
Those are such great questions. And I
didn't write these out perfectlyeither, but I can, I think I can
say a little something. I in myday job. I'm editor of a faith
based publication calledChristian career, and we just
published this Easter issue withthe front page story, or it was
a reflection by Brian Walsh,who's a pastor and and a poet,
(23:54):
and it was a poem calledresurrection in the ruins. So
I've just been thinking aboutthat idea that he, he, he kind
of rewrites Isaiah 65 where theIsraelites have come back and
everything is in shambles andthey have to rebuild. And I know
that for some people, it feelslike their church or the
denomination or their ministryis kind of in that stage. But
(24:17):
he, and so he goes through theproblems and but then lists like
the areas of hope, and how canwe, how can there be
resurrection, even there? And,of course, we believe that there
is and so, SO to SO, thepractice part just comes, I
think, from, from not allowingthe world or ourselves to just
(24:39):
to just sit there in the ruinsand and only see the ruins, but
to look around for evidence ofthe resurrection, and to
practice, you know, to make itpossible, to do what you can
even in the middle of that. So,yeah, like in my in my family
there, you know, there can be,there can be. Problems there can
(25:00):
be, you know, elderly parents orbills. Are you worried about the
future? Or I gave a talk inToronto a couple weeks ago on
the book, and our My car gottowed the like these things. You
know, the brokenness of theworld is always there and it's
always real, but there still isjoy in the midst of that, and
(25:21):
God is still at work. And thenin terms of the inner fire, I
think, I think this particularmoment now, you'll have to tell
me what you think as Americansliving in Canada, but like we
are in really interesting timeshistorically. Right between this
relationship between Canada andthe US is It's tense in ways
(25:41):
that are new and different. Andone interesting but potentially
positive side effect is a bitmore Canadian patriotism, right?
So, so what does that mean forchurches like can any of that
energy be harnessed for gooddiscussion about what it means
to be, to be, to have yourchurch be where it is. If, if
(26:02):
you've always used all yourmaterial from the state, like,
maybe, maybe this is the time tosay, well, could we have a
budget? What's in our library?
What are we preaching from? Whatare people reading? All those
kinds of things.
Vanessa Caruso (26:16):
Love that.
Andy Withrow (26:19):
Yeah, I like, like, the image of more of a
home cooked meal than, you know,the canned soup all the time,
yeah, sometimes you need it ortake out or take out, yeah,
eating a little healthier. Yeah?
What is, yeah, maybe, as forpastors and for church
leadership, taking a bit of arisk there. And what is, what is
the Spirit of God speaking to usif we become over reliant on,
(26:41):
you know, on our on our heroesand in other places, that's
good.
Vanessa Caruso (26:51):
Well, I feel like we should talk about the
conference coming up. Angela
Andy Withrow (26:56):
is coming to Victoria, yes,
Vanessa Caruso (26:58):
yeah. I'm very excited soon. Yeah. So exciting
in June.
Andy Withrow (27:01):
Do you have the dates? Do you have the I think
it's
Vanessa Caruso (27:04):
the sixth and seventh. Yes. Does that sound
right? Yeah, that's right. Okay.
What will that be like, thatconference, and who should come?
Well,
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:16):
I have a question for you, what are the
what's the likelihood of whalesbeing nearby at that time of
year because my daughter's soexcited. Our best,
Vanessa Caruso (27:24):
yes, okay, yeah, called, I think flying into
Vancouver and taking the ferryover. Yeah,
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:33):
that's what we're doing. Okay, okay,
perfect.
Vanessa Caruso (27:37):
Cue the whales.
That's what I'll try to do. I
Angela Reitsma Bick (27:40):
think it's ecumenical, right? People from
all over any different churchesare coming and that, that's a
really cool part of of what'shappening. And I think that's
the way forward for Christianityin Canada, honestly, is to work
together, rather than littletiny groups struggling on their
own all over the place, just,you're right, yeah, kind of pool
our resources. And speaking ofrelationships, I'm going to talk
(28:05):
about reconciliation. So anotherway to look at in the book,
Peter and I talk about theseseven triggers, which are the
reasons why people deconstruct.
But if you flip those and gothrough kind of addressing those
issues, then each of them haveto do with writing, the
relationship, you know, betweentwo parties, so between with
each other. You talked about.
(28:25):
Jamie Smith says deconstructionis a turn to the other. And with
the earth we talk about in thebook, and with God so that, so
that reconciliation can addressthe deconstruction. And then
what I think is really helpfulis if we look at Ecclesiastes
and just say what time is it foryour church? And maybe figure
out which of the triggers it's ait's overwhelming to think about
(28:48):
all of them, but maybe there'sjust one or two that are the
most urgent in your context, andthen there's the necessary
reconciliation there. So that'sto me, that's the hopeful angle.
This the same thing in the book,where we don't just talk about
the problems, we don't staythere. But what does it mean for
the Canadian church? What can wedo about it? Is really what I'd
like to explore.
Vanessa Caruso (29:12):
I love that the medium is kind of the message of
this conference, that just likeyou said, different churches and
communities all gatheringtogether already, just at, you
know, 10 minutes after itstarts, or whatever, there's
already something reparative andhopeful about that I felt very
(29:32):
companioned through the book. Ihaven't gone through
deconstruction in, like, areally extreme way, but just
being part of churches for solong, growing up with a pastor
for a dad and having like littledeaths along the way, I felt
like this was kind of It wasn'tan exit interview for me, but it
(29:54):
had the same feel as like anexit interview, which you might
even say you were providing forpeople. Yeah. So I imagine
people coming just to not bealone, yeah, in that experience
of feeling undone at times overthe years, and sad yeah and
(30:15):
disconnected, like it could bereparative just to be Yeah, with
people who acknowledge that,like some of your your theses
that I love, I won't give themaway because I feel like it's
the climax of the book. But tothose who have questions and
feel adrift, let them freelyexplore. And for those who are
weary from treading water, letthem regain hope. I would think
(30:35):
the conference might do some ofthat just by virtue of being
together,
Angela Reitsma Bick (30:40):
yeah? I think so. I hope so. That's the
prayer for sure.
Andy Withrow (30:47):
Yeah, yeah. So, this is in June. Peter Sherman's
coming in May. It's true for apre, pre conference lecture.
It's May 15, I think. Yeah,nice. So that'll be an evening
lecture, and then, and thenwe'll have this conference on a
weekend, Angela, you're gonna,you're gonna be speaking on
Friday night. Yep, nothing iswasted, finding a measure of
(31:07):
blessing, even in the midst ofconflict and crisis. Yeah. And
then you'll be the keynote forSaturday. There's gonna be a lot
of, I think, different breakoutsessions, different speakers. So
big event, you'll be thekeynote, and I'm just gonna read
your what you had sent is yourtitle? If that's the title, good
question, faith that allows roomfor doubt, pastors who admit
their mistakes and liturgy witha built in time for
(31:30):
reconciliation, those will soundfascinating to me. Yes, these
are just a few of the ways thatCanadian churches can become
more reconstruction friendly.
Can hope be born in the face ofdespair. Can there be, to quote
Brian Walsh, resurrection amongthe ruins, which you just talked
about, what would it look likeif churches were a place where
small deconstructions happenedregularly alongside ongoing
reconstruction? There's a lot ofa lot of space to explore here,
(31:53):
I think, both for church leadersand for for Christians, who are
kind of all over the map interms of how they relate to this
question of faithdeconstruction, whether they're
going through it themselves, theundone process, or, I know a lot
in in my community, it's, it'soften walking with friends or
family members who are who aredisoriented, and going through
(32:15):
that process. So
Vanessa Caruso (32:18):
that's exciting.
I love your description. That's
Andy Withrow (32:22):
why I read it.
Thank you. Yes,
Vanessa Caruso (32:25):
and I love nothing is wasted. That's such a
great title. Thank you.
Angela Reitsma Bick (32:33):
Yeah, maybe a shorter way to say the same
thing is we, we have a mix ofdata stories, and then I get,
I'm a kind of a metaphor addict.
So any metaphor I can find. I'lljust play around with it for a
while, and that'll be part of mytalk.
Vanessa Caruso (32:45):
Amazing. Yeah, the camping theme, I didn't I
didn't know camping until Icamped with Canadians, and now
it's part of my life, and it'ssuch a good line throughout the
whole book, and the picture ofthat canoe that resurfaces? Yes,
he's
Angela Reitsma Bick (33:03):
the hopeful guy. He's heading somewhere new.
The guy on the front, he's onPortage,
Vanessa Caruso (33:07):
yeah, so you already mentioned that you work
for a Christian publication. Soif people like me are like, wow,
I really responded well to yourwriting and to your particular
vision and passion, where andhow can we stay connected to
(33:27):
your work?
Angela Reitsma Bick (33:30):
My publication is called Christian
courier. So Christian courier.caYou can search for my name or
just have fun reading all thevariety of articles there. It's
It's news from a Christianperspective. We're one of the
only faith based independentnews publications left in
Canada. And then I have awebsite, which is Angela
writesma bic.ca and there's acouple of links there to another
(33:52):
podcast I was on, and some talksthat have been saved on YouTube.
And I'm working on a Spotifyplaylist that will be there
eventually with songs you know,singer songwriters who have
wrestled kind of with the giftsand failures of church. And
that's just a side project, butit's lots of
Vanessa Caruso (34:10):
fun, cool a playlist. And do you want to
leave us with any words ofencouragement for anyone
listening who might feel in themiddle of being undone today?
Angela Reitsma Bick (34:27):
Yeah, I would just say you're in such
good company. I know it can feellike the loneliest place, but
you're if you miss thecommunity, that there's not one
there, like what you left. Butothers have reached these shores
in the camping metaphor. There'san author that I love, Nora.
He'll Hudson. She says, someyears are the questions, some
(34:49):
years are the answers. I think,just give yourself permission to
hang out in the questions for awhile. And that's that can be
holy ground.
Unknown (34:58):
Hmm.
Vanessa Caruso (35:00):
Yeah, that's a beautiful blessing. It reminds
me You said somewhere in thebook, not all who wander or
loss, yeah, you know, not allwho are undone are lost, yeah.
Well, thank you so much, Angela,it was so good to talk to you
after you're loving this book.
Andy Withrow (35:22):
The book is called Blessed are the undone. Yes, the
conference is called Blessed arethe undone, right? Okay, just
okay. For consistency sake, it'scoming up. We've got pre
conference lectured May 15. Theconference itself will be in
June. And stay tuned for all ofthat. And yeah, we're excited to
have you, Angela, thanks forspending this time with us, and
(35:43):
we'll see you in about six orseven weeks or so.
Angela Reitsma Bick (35:47):
Okay, thank you for being such good readers
of the book. Oh, happy time. Ourpleasure.
Andy Withrow (35:54):
All right, okay, it's just you. Andy
Vanessa Caruso (35:56):
Vanessa, yes, that was so fun. We haven't done
an interview in a while, so Ifeel like it was
Andy Withrow (36:01):
good to blow the dust off the old interviews.
Exactly.
Vanessa Caruso (36:05):
I am really excited about her talk, yeah,
like nothing is wasted. And thenthat little description you read
like how to be a church that'smore welcoming to
reconstruction, including withinthe liturgy, not just the like
posture, yeah,
Andy Withrow (36:24):
that's right. I think, I think not being afraid
of of what's been called Faithdeconstruction. I think the book
makes an excellent case forsaying this is a this can, and
maybe should be a regular partof maturing faith for all of us
in and you shared a bit about,you know, you didn't have a
(36:45):
cataclysmic Deaconreconstruction of faith, but
you've had these little dyingsalong the way. I made reference
to, you know, when I was in myearly 20s, there was a
disorientation, a reorientation,to to to kind of grow into
something new. So that makes alot of sense to me. Yeah, is
maybe being not afraid toexplore this with those who are
(37:10):
feeling disoriented. Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (37:13):
beautiful. I did witness baptism on Easter
morning, so when you read thedescription of her talk, and my
imagination started going, youknow, I thought, well, this is
like, too cheesy. I don't knowhow you would do it, but it just
made me think, what would itlook like to bless those who are
becoming undone a little bitwithin the community? You know,
(37:35):
we have these other sacramentsfor other stages of faith. What
would it look like to Yeah, forthat to be normal and, you know,
to gather around someone andlike, bless them, yeah, I like
it,
Andy Withrow (37:51):
yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of good
questions and maybe a lot ofunknowns of what it looks like,
because it's just a place toexplore giving even just having
a a space, being a church spacethat allows for and welcomes
questioning, can be challengingfor church leaders, because
(38:12):
that's it's vulnerability, it'suncertainty, but I think it's an
important space to try to leadpeople into and occupy, because
that's how That's how we growup, that's how we learn, yeah,
in all areas of life, andcertainly in how we how we
follow Jesus. So yeah, thatmakes a lot of sense to me.
(38:33):
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (38:34):
it feels exciting to think about what's
on the other side ofdeconstruction and
reconstruction, like you know,what are people like, who have
kind of hit the wall or fallenoff, and then I sense like
people have a little bit moreclarity and maybe a little bit
(38:56):
more courage to have a propheticvoice, or, I don't know, it
feels like very creative what'snext for the church and for
Christians?
Andy Withrow (39:08):
Yeah, I think the thing to add to that is, I
think, in my own experience, ityou come back the other side
with a lot more humility, ohyeah, and openness to to things
being left, some things beingundone. And, yeah, yeah, I guess
(39:30):
just space for that and and opento listening a bit more and
wrestling with things, asopposed to, you know, I think
most of us, myself included, arejust feel more comfortable when
things are certain, definitely.
And so there's a there's anattraction to certainty. Well,
this is, you know, the whole Godsaid it, I believe it. That
(39:51):
settles it for me. It's a nicesentiment, and maybe it's true
for for some things, but, but.
It just doesn't always holdwater, so you need a bit more
space to explore. And I think itseems like God's okay with that.
He's not afraid of those things.
And if anything, maybe he's verymuch in the middle of that
(40:14):
process, it seems, of art comingundone and being reformed.
Vanessa Caruso (40:21):
Yeah, mystery. I kept thinking of, like,
humility, like it like amystery. More comfort, right in
the mystery. I also am impressedthat this was a side project
that they did at nights aftertheir full time jobs. Like, how
inspiring that this is somewhereit could go. Yeah, yeah. If you
(40:41):
said, like, Hey, should we,like, think about deconstruction
and take people's stories, I'dbe like, that sounds like, big
and overwhelming, and what couldit lead to? So I'm inspired by
that like to kind of follow myinterests, yeah, my curiosities
a little bit at a time, for along time, and then it might go
(41:01):
somewhere,
Andy Withrow (41:03):
yeah, well, and maybe that touches in to the
last question you asked Angela,which is, what's, what's, Oh,
yeah. Oh, no one, yeah, desire,what do you have the inner fire
about? Because the that kind ofspeaks to this project.
Obviously, it took a lot ofeffort and energy and focus and
extra time and sacrifice. Sothose questions of, where is,
(41:28):
yeah, where is the Spirit ofGod? Kind of kindling, something
love this individually or as asa community?
Vanessa Caruso (41:35):
That's a good Pentecost question. Yeah.
Kindling a little
Andy Withrow (41:39):
early, yeah. So getting ready for Pentecost,
yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (41:44):
anything else from the conversation you want
to highlight? Or no,
Andy Withrow (41:50):
just that we could have probably talked for hours.
I had, I mean, a lot of thestuff I brought up early on was
just from the first fivechapters of a 23 chapter book, I
think so. Yeah, so there's somuch more there. Recommend, if
you can, I would recommend thisbook, and if you can come to the
conference, I think it'd beworthwhile. For sure, one more
(42:15):
time, registration details willbe www,
Vanessa Caruso (42:19):
www, VISTA, canada.org
Andy Withrow (42:22):
Vista canada.org
Vanessa Caruso (42:25):
Yes, great. You can RSVP. There's discounts for
like, groups of like eight ormore or something, so if you
want to get a bunch of friends,yeah, great, fun. Fun. See you
there.
Andy Withrow (42:37):
Yeah, well, let's do another podcast. Sometime.
Fun. Thanks. Vanessa Bye, AndyBye, everybody.
Vanessa Caruso (42:46):
Thanks for listening to coastal theology, a
podcast from the VancouverIsland School of Theology and
the arts. For more informationon Vista, go to VISTA
canada.org. You.
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