Improvising Church with Dr. Mark Glanville

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What if the church's greatest strength isn't in repeating what's worked elsewhere, but in learning to improvise within our unique contexts? Dr. Mark Glanville, jazz pianist and Old Testament scholar, invites us to discover a more vibrant way of being church through the art of improvisation.

Join us for this fascinating exploration of how churches can become more authentic, contextual, and vibrant by learning the art of spiritual improvisation. Then experience it firsthand at the upcoming "Blessed Are the Undone" workshop with Dr. Glanville on June 6-7 in Victoria.

Links:

• Register for Blessed Are the Undone: Conversations about Faith Deconstruction and Hope in Canada - June 6 - 7,  2025 - Victoria, BC
• Find out more about Dr. Mark Glanville
• Listen to Mark's Podcast, Blue Note Theology

Learn more about the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts

Credits:

Coastal Theology Podcast theme performed by Mark Glanville

Episode Transcript

Andy Withrow (00:00):
Announcer,

Vanessa Caruso (00:17):
welcome to coastal theology, a podcast from
the Vancouver Island School ofTheology and the arts, we
explore how Christian faith,learning and creativity flourish
on Vancouver Island, and how youcan be part of the story.

Andy Withrow (00:33):
All right, welcome back to coastal theology.
Vanessa and Andy here back withyou, and we're excited to
welcome and interview Dr MarkGlanville. He's going to be
coming on June 6 and seventh forthe Blessed are the undone
workshop hosted by Vancouver ionSchool of Theology and the arts.

(00:53):
So we're excited to meet withhim, and we're going to be
talking a little bit about hisbook titled improvising church
Scripture as the source ofharmony, rhythm and soul. So let
me just introduce him real quickbefore we jump on with him. Dr
Mark Glanville works as thedirector of the Center for

(01:16):
missional leadership atUniversity of British Columbia,
Vancouver, Canada. He is an OldTestament scholar and has
written five books, includingimprovising church Scripture as
the source of harmony, rhythmand soul. I just mentioned
preaching in a new key, craftingexpository sermons in post
Christian neighborhoods. Mark'svocational goal is to research,
teach, write, speak and playmusic to nourish Christian

(01:38):
leaders, to creatively reimaginewhat the church can be and do in
post Christian societies withthe Bible in our hands. Mark is
also a professional jazz pianistactive on the Vancouver jazz
scene. Mark's podcast is BlueNote theology, which he hosts
from the grand piano. Hispersonal website is

(01:59):
www.markglanville.org Mark Soyep, let's welcome him. Let's
talk to Mark.

Vanessa Caruso (02:08):
I want to say something to you both great,
which is that I had so muchanxiety preparing for this
interview, because I loveimprovisation so much. So when
you said yes, very quickly,Mark, to this interview, I
thought I'd have more time toread your book. I had to borrow
Andy's yesterday because Ididn't have time to get it. And

(02:28):
I've thought about this topic somuch, and so the fact that we're
talking about it, I felt thisintensity, like I kept texting
Andy, like, I'm sorry I'm beingso intense, but when are you
gonna get me this book? And hewas like, You're just intense.
So I think it's ironic, becausethe topic is actually about
improvisation, and what I wantto do in this conversation is
actually try to embody some ofthe principles of improvisation

(02:51):
during it, which means for me,trusting that everything we need
is here for this conversation,and also at The End, wondering
how we were surprised by whatwas actually there, and actually
listening to each other, insteadof my weight, which is, I have
two pages of notes, and I wantto, like, think of my best
questions and impress you and bearticulate for Andy, and that

(03:15):
will take me out of the moment,because improv is So much about,
like, deeply relaxing andactually listening and agreeing
with what's happening. And so Iwant to, I'm just saying that
out loud. I'm going to try tolike improv this instead of
impress in this conversation.
Okay,

Mark Glanville (03:33):
I like that, and to build on it, like
improvisation done well feedslike it's we improvise out of a
rich tradition. So there's thatfeel, there's that kind of,
there's that those ingredients,there's that kind of rich
emotion. So we come to play afresh melody out of a tradition.
And you know, relating to that,you and Andy, I know, together

(03:56):
with others, in Victoria, hadthis beautiful church that has
been improvising on the biblicaltradition for so many years. So
there's that deep immersion,obviously, that that we're all
improvising out of, of doing itfor years, that incarnational
kind of church and and workingit out shoulder to shoulder as
we as we go,

Andy Withrow (04:15):
and just to connect this really idea quickly
to the book. Because this isthis comes out a lot in the
book. Is you talk aboutconnecting jazz improvisation to
church renewal. So just by wayof kind of getting into this, is

(04:36):
the book improvising church byMark Gran Glanville, who were
sitting down with virtually whatprompted you to connect jazz
improvisation with ecclesial orchurch renewal,

Mark Glanville (04:51):
both jazz and doing church and living into the
biblical story and church andliving into. Biblical story is
sort of the same thing. Theythey require improvisation, but
they're they're seep deeply in atradition. So it just struck me,
I think, as the years went onthe way, that as a biblical

(05:13):
exegete and as a pastor and as aChrist follower, I was sort of
doing the same thing that I wasdoing in jazz. So as jazz
musicians, we all spent 1000s ofhours literally just seeping
ourselves in the jazz tradition.
So still, every day, I practicefor a couple of hours and listen
to the Masters, just doing itjust before I got on the
podcast, actually, and justlearning getting that kind of

(05:34):
humming, the melodies, tappingthe rhythms, and getting it into
our bones, just immersing in thejazz tradition. And as we do
this, I mean an example, I justheard a beautiful line two days
ago.

(05:56):
That's a line it sounds likenothing, but musicians will
recognize it as jazz vocabulary,and it's just such a beautiful
line. I heard it on a CD, and Ithought, oh goodness me, I gotta
learn that. And so I sat down,spent a couple of hours, and got
it under my fingers in all 12keys, which is what we do as
jazz players, and that's kind oflearning the tradition. But then

(06:17):
each time, the nature of jazz isyou can't just play what you
hear on an album each time youhave to play something fresh,
something that hasn't beenplayed before. If you got to a
jazz club and copied, say, aJohn Coltrane solo on there on
the bandstand, you'd never bebooked again. It's just not you
can't do that, but it's quitethe same with church, and it

(06:39):
took me some years to realizeit. But as Christ followers, we
immerse in the biblicaltradition. We get to know its
characters, its themes, its arc,its beautiful ethics of
tenderness, it's, it's, it'sstars and and we find our way to
play in this out of thistradition, and to improvise away

(07:00):
out of this tradition, neverleaving the tradition, but
always playing fresh melodies.
Because a bit like with jazz,it's the nature of the biblical
tradition that it demandsimprovisation, and I think that
point is missed badly byChristian thinkers, but I think
that's because they don'trealize the creativity of the
biblical authors themselves,just a quick example them. Not

(07:21):
that you ask for it. I'll takeit, but, yeah, but a quick
example. Say, I'm an OldTestament scholar, and you think
of the metaphor of the covenantin the Old Testament. So if
there's if you think OldTestament theology, if you know
anything about the OldTestament, you know the covenant
is important in the OldTestament. So, but the covenant
is it for fascinating example ofimprovisation. The covenant, or

(07:43):
treaty, as it's also known as,was actually it had its impetus
in the treaties, or thecovenants, between the kings in
the ancient world, and it wasactually militarized and pretty
barbaric. So if one of the greatMesopotamian kings, say of the
Hittite Empire, or a pharaoh, orof the Neo Babylonian, Neo

(08:06):
Persian Empire, conqueredanother king, they would
subjugate that other king bymeans of a covenant or treaty.
And so it was militarized. Itwas traumatizing. It was, you
know, it was horrific. Reallythis ugly, barbaric, oppressive
covenant, and the biblicalscribes, by the image, by the
inspiration of the Spirit, hadthe the genius to kind of to

(08:27):
take this ancient, militarizedmetaphor, turn it upside down,
and use it as a vehicle tocommunicate something about a
God of grace who was by the lawand by the prophets shaping
God's people, God's ancientpeople, to be completely
different from thattraumatizing, militarized
society, in fact, to be anancient society that brings the
weakest among them into thecenter. I find that fascinating.

(08:50):
So the first time that themaster scribe must have
suggested to the other scribes,hey, here, I've got a funny
idea. Let's use the idea of acovenant. They must have thought
he was out of his mind, youknow, but, but he was being
inventive. He was improvising onthat spiritual tradition that
was, that was being writtendown, and and and so, so, kind

(09:11):
of playing out of that traditioncreatively himself. I mean, very
quickly come to the NewTestament. You think of
something like a motif like thepeace of Christ. And you see
quite a different quite asimilar dynamic, the peace of
Christ being an appropriation ofthe first century Roman imperial
propaganda, the Pax Romana, thepeace of Rome, once again,

(09:32):
barbaric, militarized,hegemonic, oppressive. And here
the New Testament authors nowspeak of the peace of Christ,
remarkable, very risky, andthat's how that improvisation,
that creativity, and yet we canlose those churches. And so the
point is, with the Bible in ourhands, we're improvising on this
tradition because the traditionitself demands it, just like

(09:53):
jazz.

Andy Withrow (09:55):
Yeah, you talk about in your book, too. This,
this theme of. Sometimes ourtemptation as church leaders is
we kind of want to take the bestthing that's out there, and we
want to do that too. It's kindof a natural impulse. But
there's you, kind of you call usto this more local
contextualization. Well, what's,what's God raising up that's
distinct in your neighborhoods,in your city, in your community,

(10:20):
and how do we lean into thattake a bit more risks as pastors
and leaders to to say, No, thisis, this is who we are in
Victoria or Vancouver, or wherewe happen to live. And how do
we, yeah, build on what theSpirit's leading in that way?

Mark Glanville (10:36):
Yeah, I think it's so important. What's
particular about our localneighborhood. How can we reflect
the esthetics, the sensibilitiesof our neighborhood? I mean,
we're both, well, all three ofus are in Cascadia, kind of
Vancouver, Victoria. It's kindof an ecosystem that kind of
goes down to Washington State,Portland, Oregon, and there's a
distinctive esthetic, isn'tthere some distinctive values

(10:58):
around creation, care andkinship with the creation,
valuing the stories of FirstNations, people, some values and
esthetics that we share, and itwould be such a shame if we were
just kind of mimicking orpuppeting the kind of, say, the
sensibilities, the esthetics,the traditions that were just
kind of globalized. However,having said that, having said it

(11:19):
would be a shame if we did that,that's, in fact, what we do as
churches these, I mean, youthink of just worship music for
a start, the way that theesthetics, sensibilities,
lyrical content of Hillsong andsay, Bethel and I actually grew
up just a few minutes away fromHillsong in Sydney, Australia,

(11:41):
how that's just, that's justkind of mimicked around the
world, I think that that'sthat's a terrible undersell of
what it can be to be a churchthat's incarnate in a particular
local neighborhood. What are thelocal esthetics here? What are
the values here? We don't justhave to have a white, 32 year

(12:03):
old male holding a guitar andsneakers up the front leading us
in the latest Hill song forworship. What are the
intercultural riches in ourchurch right now that we can
draw on for our worship? And howcan we not just reflect our
neighborhood? How can we beblessed by our neighborhood and
bless it in turn? I think you'rereally right. Andy, I think

(12:26):
that's crucial for the church tothrive in post Christian
contexts,

Andy Withrow (12:32):
and exciting and freeing in some ways. I think

Mark Glanville (12:36):
I think so too.
Like I think it relates to musictoo, and I don't understand the
depths of this, but I really,honestly don't understand the
depths of this. But I think thatmusic is deeply related to
place, and I have a feeling it'sneurological, you know, like
everyone, you can close, we canclose our eyes and think about
kind of one of our houses thatwe lived in as kids, right? And

(12:57):
there's a song, you know, thatgoes with that. You know, maybe
it's a song that our parentssung us when we were little, or
something when we're in bed. Ican do that. I can close my eyes
and think back to Sydney,Australia, the house where I
grew up. I think it might be todo with neurologically, the
right brain, which is where weexperience our body and we're
embodied and we're and the rightbrain, we experience music at

(13:20):
that kind of intuitive level,not the analytical level, which
is the left brain, but theintuitive level. So I have a
feeling its body and its placeand its music there in the right
brain. So I think that, like Iwent back to Sydney, Australia a
year and a half ago, atChristmas with my family, very
expensive to get back to Sydney,Australia, and the day we flew

(13:42):
back to Canada, I was sitting inmy sister's house, very close to
the house I grew up. And I wasplaying my Australian piano, the
piano that I had when I wasliving in Australia, a lovely
Kauai upright and so but withouteven trying, I wrote a jazz tune
called cherry wood. And cherryWood's the name of my sister's

(14:05):
Street. And it was justfascinating, like in hindsight,
to look back here. I was leavingmy country, leaving the town I
grew up in, where my sister andmy father still are. I'm 51 now.
I'm so distant from mychildhood, but yet I ended up
writing this tune, cherry wood.
And I mean, I play it for you,if I may. But the significance

(14:26):
in this conversation is thatbeing rooted in place as
churches using our imaginationin a place, isn't that being
what only Arkan church can be inthis place?

Andy Withrow (14:38):
Isn't that the best art, though, is particular.
It's particular to some time andplace that's a little bit alien
to us, because we're not a partof that Saint always a part of
that. But there's somethingbeautiful about it too, and even
connecting that to that God hadthe audacity to enter into time
and space in history. Uh,

Mark Glanville (15:01):
yeah, in a particular place, particular
time

Andy Withrow (15:04):
and place. How dare he do that? But it's also
Yeah, also this beautiful,wonderful thing that's, we're so
glad that he did.

Mark Glanville (15:14):
Please play, I agree with that. Cherry Wood.
Cherry Wood. Oh, yeah, thanks,Vanessa. I will Yeah. And that's
I do. I mean, listeners mightjust want to imagine what it
means for their Christiancommunity to belong in their
place, and what are theesthetics and riches and words
and senses that arise from theirplace. I hope I could remember

(15:35):
it was a long time ago. IYeah, could I ask you guys?

(17:10):
Because you guys kind of come, Imean, you're in the same church,
in the same kind of distinctivekind of neighborhood. I mean,
Vanessa, what are the ways? Imean, when you think of your
locality, what does it mean tobelong in your particular place?
What are the particular kind ofI don't know, just aspects of
your neighborhood or ecosystemthat that you think is valuable

(17:31):
for your Christian community toreflect.

Vanessa Caruso (17:36):
Thanks for that question during your song, I was
thinking about the wind. It kindof reminded me of getting my
hair in my face in your songwhen it's windy. And this is the
windiest place I've ever lived.
I'm close to the water, so it'swindier even than other places
here in Victoria. And so I waswondering, Oh, what have I
learned about wind, and whatdoes that mean for the church

(17:57):
here? And one thing I've learnedabout wind since living here is
the more I resist it, or try toget my hair not in my face, or
am annoyed by it, the worstexperience I have when I embrace
the wind. I mean, I even wentdown to the water that remember
that like wind warning we have?

(18:18):
Yeah, I went down there and itwas so intense, and it was so
soothing, actually, to embracethe limitation of wind. And the
first thing I thought of interms of a correlation, there's
so much more. I mean, wind isthe spirit, but there's also a
lot of what's that called, whenpeople come and go in Victoria,
transience, transients. So like,the wind blows pretty strong.

(18:41):
Here you'll get, like, all thesenew people, and then they leave.

Andy Withrow (18:44):
The wind will blow them right away. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso (18:46):
So that was one thing I thought of. But the next
thing was that I've never livedin a place where people put this
stuff they don't want out on thesidewalk, and here you can get
everything you need. My wholeoffice is furnished with
furniture from the sidewalk forfree, which feels like the
earliest really cool me. Iwanted to tell you guys about
this, actually. So yesterday, myson got something at the thrift

(19:09):
store because it was a holidayhere. So he went to thrift store
and he wanted to hang it in hisroom, and he needed a tack. And
so he said, Can you go get meattack? I went to our tack
place. No tax left. I'm like,sorry, there's no tax left. I'm
walking to work this morningthinking about this improv
conversation, and I look on theground and Andy, Oh, you found
attack. There was attack on theground. There was attack.

(19:29):
Someone's giving away attack Iput in my pocket all day I
risked being punctured, just totell you,

Mark Glanville (19:35):
this is part of

Vanessa Caruso (19:38):
what Victoria has taught me, is that there is
enough to go around, and I couldhave an Amazon cart list with
tax right now. I could begetting tax right now. But this
kind of happens in this economyhere in Victoria, which is, if
you're paying attention to it,yeah, you have to pay attention
the desk there might be I got.
One in my office. I'm actuallygetting rid of if you need one.

(20:01):
He's not even joking. He does.
If anyone listening needs adesk, we have one for you. This
is church

Mark Glanville (20:07):
in real life. So this, those two things come to

Vanessa Caruso (20:09):
mind, the wind and the free stuff that I have
found over and over againactually has something I need,
and the kind of reciprocity,mutuality economy that exists in
that little unique way here inVictoria. I love that.

Mark Glanville (20:26):
I wonder, I mean, for people who are outside
of Cascadia, which is wherewe're talking, I wonder what
activities they can do as acongregation in order to learn
and to engage and get theirimaginations flowing. I'll share
one story that I share in thebook. But then, you know, you
guys might share an idea too.
Then in improvising church, Ishare a story where my church in

(20:47):
Australia, we distributed, weinvited people to take photos of
our neighborhood. It happened tobe a very poor neighborhood,
what we call the governmenthousing area in Western Sydney,
Australia, 50,000 governmentowned households, beautiful, so
rich in community, and also withthat, with that aspect so
people, they picked that. Theytook photos of houses, of

(21:11):
murals, of graffiti, of kind ofopen spaces. They found the
beauty in a community wherepeople can easily drive through
and not see find any beauty atall. So then we we distributed
disposable cameras to older folkwho didn't have phones. We
invited younger folk who hadphones. Camera phones were just

(21:33):
coming out. And then an artistin our church framed many of the
pictures, and we put them up inour church foyer, and they're
still there, actually, 20 yearslater. And the church motto was
making known the truth, hope andlove of Jesus. So we wrote, we
used that motto, and we justlengthened it a bit. We said,
making known the truth, hope andlove of Jesus here and these

(21:53):
beautiful pictures, we reallyhonored our neighborhood that
often received a lot of dishonorbecause of the poverty and
perhaps the violence, but peoplemiss the community and the
beauty. So I wonder if there'ssome version of that that
listeners can invite one anotherinto so that, yeah, we just
start to, as you say, becomeaware and alert to the things
that we can love in ourneighborhood. I don't know if

(22:17):
anything else comes to mind foryou guys. I for

Andy Withrow (22:24):
you guys. Before you started, I was thinking
similar lines in terms ofcreation stuff. I think we've
been having one of the nicestsprings we've had, probably in
since before the pandemic. Maybeeven, I can't remember that far
back, but it's just everybody'sout. It's in the sunshine. It's
so nice, and there's anopportunity there you creation

(22:45):
is a big, big theme in your bookmark for a key to the church, to
really take it, you know, takethat opportunity in the future,
going forward. I think the otherthing that we've always noticed
in our community we've alwaysnoticed in Victoria is this

(23:07):
isn't just Victoria, I thinkit's increasingly across
probably North America ingeneral, Canada in particular,
but just the the lack of kind ofthe vacuum being in a post
Christendom context creates interms of communities, like,
people are finding ways to docommunities, but there's still,
there's still something missing,I think, like, people are a lot,

(23:30):
I think longing for connection,and they're, they're trying to
find different, creative ways todo that. So that's something
that's and I think that's truefor Victoria and and sometimes
those two things, creation andcommunity go together. People
are doing stuff togetheroutdoors. They're celebrating
that way. They're they'reworshiping that way, not not
necessarily Christian worship,but just a sense of of

(23:50):
appreciation and wonder and aweand being in the midst of all
that that that's, that's anotherconnection point, I think,

Mark Glanville (24:00):
yeah, yeah. I agree with that. I think that,
yeah, recognizing our kinshipwith the creation, that we're
family with the creation, isgoing to be really crucial for
Christ's followers as wecontinue through the years in
post Christian culture, I thinkwe all have a sense that there's
a fragmentation going on betweenhumanity and the creation, and

(24:22):
that's been even the sharpnessof that's been heightened over
the last couple of months withthe Trump administration. But
yet we there's that healing thatwe find when we're in right
relationships, not just with oneanother, but with the creation
itself, and if and I think thatthe the rich theology of our
kinship with the creation in theBible can be well, can it can

(24:44):
guide the church to be a lighton a hill as way as where Jesus
is shaping us to be in Matthewfive, you're a light on a hill.
A city on the hill can't behidden. What a verse a city on
the hill can't be hidden. Jesus,in the Sermon on the Mount, is
saying that the church is thisnew Jerusalem. This. See on a
hill a renewed ancient Israel, arenewed beautiful people of God,

(25:06):
beautiful by our shared life.
And the reason why I say it'sbiblical is because the Bible
was written in an agrariancommunity where people were knit
in with their ecosystem. That'swhy, in Genesis chapter two,
Adam, the first human kind, wastaken from the adamah, the soil.
This relationship between theAdam and the adamah, it's there

(25:28):
in the etymology itself. So thiskinship, this kind of, this,
this, this, this shared fate,the our lives, our fate, our
existence, is intertwined withthe creation. So the church has
an opportunity, I think, well,to learn from First Nations,
communities and their story ofliving so well on the land,

(25:51):
their theology, if you like, ofkinship between people and the
land, and to work out how to dothat up close and personal, but
in real, practical ways. We'refortunate in our little
neighborhood. Here, we live nextdoor to friends who were at
church with together for manyyears, who buy from local
farmers and and then they kindof all the food gets brought to

(26:15):
their garage, which is just2020, meters that way I'm
pointing in the direction oftheir garage, and then they kind
of circulate it to 20households, many of whom are
from our church community. Andthat's one very practical way
that we can live. Walk lightlyon the land. But there's lots of
things to do. How about youguys? What? How do you guys kind

(26:36):
of walk in that way in Victoria

Vanessa Caruso (26:42):
reminded me of the egg Co Op.

Andy Withrow (26:45):
Yeah, there's something similar. We've kind of
done through the table churchfor, gosh, a decade or more.
Now. Can't remember it gotstarted something called common
cupboard, which was sort oftrying to make more intentional
connections with where food iscoming from, local farms and
stuff like that. It's mostlynow, I think just, just, just
the eggs. It's a egg share a coop, I guess. So, yeah, we're

Vanessa Caruso (27:07):
up to four or five dozen crates of 24 dozen
each, delivered from a farmevery other week to the
neighborhood. It's a huge Areyou the I was the admin? You
were the admin? Yeah,

Mark Glanville (27:19):
a lot of eggs.
Yeah. How many eggs does thatcome to Vanessa? That's,

Vanessa Caruso (27:23):
I mean, the bill is like 700 so divided by $7 a
dozen times. Yeah, 12. Are yougood at the eggs are an amazing
parable, actually, becausethey're the my main excuse for
getting to know my neighbors. SoI went around and said, Who

(27:44):
wants to be in the co op? I'lldo the pickup and the drop off.
So we have a whatsapp thread inmy neighborhood, so very
affluent neighborhood, where noone needs anything ever from
anybody except eggs. And soit's, it's really been a way to
connect with them, and sincethen, we've had a block party.
We've gone over to somebody'shouse for Indian food. Yeah,

(28:04):
we've texted about what's goingon with the construction. Like
eggs are the reason why we'retalking that's

Mark Glanville (28:13):
great and caring living in sync with the creation
as you do. I love that. Couldyou guys, before we started
recording you told me a littlebit about your eating practices
as a church community. Would youjust tell me about that again?
Because I loved it, that rhythmthat you have was so wonderful.
Well,

Andy Withrow (28:30):
the so talking about the table church, we, as
part of the original vision iswe wanted, we're called the
table, so we should probably dofood, and that was intentional
to want to accelerate communitya bit more than you know, a lot
of traditional churches, youshow up for an hour, you sit in
the pew, maybe you have a littlebit of a coffee hour to say hi

(28:51):
and you go home. So we said,let's, let's make it a bit more
inconvenient for people and makethem sit down awkwardly, get to
know each other. And it is,there's a bit of a cost there
for people coming in, especiallyif you're new, it's, it's the
middle school cafeteriasyndrome, right where it's like,
Who do I sit with? And that'suncomfortable. But if we can
kind of get over those humps,then it does. It does accelerate

(29:13):
community for people, and get itin a good, hopefully a good way,
forces people to get to knoweach other and to ask questions
and make connections. So we tryto do food at everything we do.
We have little every otherSunday, we have little
neighborhood tables. We callthem. They're kind of little
house churches. So it's could bebreakfast or brunch, depending

(29:33):
on the time that church isparticularly meeting, and
everyone just brings somethingand shares and that sort of
thing. So yeah. So

Mark Glanville (29:41):
there's always a meal, and every other week
you're all together, and thenevery other week you're in this
kind of neighborhood, that'sright,

Andy Withrow (29:47):
yeah. So we have what we call Big Table,
everyone's together. It's kindof what you'd imagine with
potluck dinner to start. Andthen you've got your liturgy and
music and sermon and all thatsort of stuff. And then
alternate Sundays are. Smallergroups in kind of these little
neighborhood churches, maybe adozen to 25 people, depending on
where you're at, kids chaos. Andthose, those, those can take on

(30:12):
different flavors depending onwho's leading them and who's
part of them, and whatneighborhoods they're in, and
that sort of

Vanessa Caruso (30:18):
thing. Andy, two food highlights at the table for
me were Easter, the Easterfeast, where we used Mike's
wine. So a member at the churchhad started a winery, and so
kind of accompanying him throughthe do I start a winery? If so,
where and how, and then makingthis amazing wine, and then
using that wine for the Easterfeast. You know, there's just,

(30:40):
like, a lot of meta, micro stuffhappening. Another highlight was
I met a woman on the beach fromShanghai when I was new here,
and she had a kid, so we becamefriends, and so she started
coming to our neighborhoodtable, and she introduced me to
hot pot. Oh yeah. And I waslike, you have to bring hot pot
to neighborhood table. And thatwas a highlight that, you know,

(31:01):
in a house, she's like, she'sdoing hot pot for everybody, and
we're all just dying over howamazing it is. Those are two
very local, very kind ofinspired in the moment food
experiences at the table.

Mark Glanville (31:17):
I love that. So people are doing the kind of
their homesteading, and in thiscase, becoming a business,
living in kinship with thecreation in creative ways in
their lives. And then that justgets together into the liturgy
and the shared life of worship.
Perfect. Yeah. So good.

Vanessa Caruso (31:33):
Mark. Something you said I want to go back to is
how you do your jazz scalesevery day you like work on the
piano every day. I love thatpart of improvisation. There's a
connotation you talk about thisin your book with it just being
like, Oh, the new, thespontaneous, the original, the
next, the future. And really, Iheard someone describe

(31:54):
improvisation as walkingbackwards into the future.
That's great, because you'reyou're disposing yourself of
everything that's there and thathas come before you, and so you
doing your scales every day.
Reminds me of Jesus, who waslike an ultimate improviser in
that he was so steeped in theScripture and in tradition and
in God's imagination and visionand purpose in the world. And

(32:16):
from that he did these reallywild, local, immediate things,
which are stories, parables,mud, dirt, writing. Yeah, you
know, that's like improvisationto me. But it wasn't just him
being like, throw out the old.
Let's do something cool and new.
It was like, let me, like,absolutely immerse myself in the
old. Let me walk backwards intothe future and do some creative

(32:40):
stuff along the way. Yeah,

Mark Glanville (32:45):
I love that. You said it so well, and I hadn't
heard that phrase before. Let'swalk backward into the future.
And that does, that is what jazzmusicians do, and I believe
that's what we're doing asChrist followers. So I really
love that phrase. Thank you,Vanessa. It makes me think once
again, going to Matthew five,where Jesus says I didn't come
to at the beginning of theSermon on the Mount. It's just
been the Beatitudes. And thenJesus said, don't think that I

(33:06):
came to abolish the law, but tofulfill it. And back when I was
a young adult, that word, youknow, that Jesus came to fulfill
the Old Testament, really, Ikind of understood that as
essentially abolishing it. Tosome, you know, I really did
relegate the old testament tojust being a bunch of symbols
that were repeated andexemplified in Jesus. So we had
a king in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the ideal King. We hada prophet in the Old Testament.

(33:27):
Jesus the ideal prophet. Andthat kind of typology approach
to hermeneutics, to biblicalinterpretation. And that's true,
and that's a part of reading theOld Testament, but actually
understood or right, when Jesussays, I came to fulfill the to
fulfill the Old Testament, hemeans, I came to bring to full
expression the Old Testament. Soin Christ, we see God's people,

(33:47):
ancient Israel, what what theywere supposed to be and never
were, in fact, fully expressedin this Messiah, the Anointed
King of Israel, in the firstcentury to bring to full
expression, and so that all thebeauty, all the up close and
personal being charged with thisman becomes friends with sinners

(34:09):
and eats with them. Luke 15, oneand two. That's all there in the
Torah, all there in thePentateuch. You want to know
about eating with the wrongpeople. Go and read Deuteronomy,
16 and the feasts and see howGod's people were to be eating
with those who were enslaved,and eating with the refugee and
becoming family together. Andthat's what Jesus is doing,
bringing to full expression thattenderness that we find in the

(34:32):
Old Testament, but that's neverquite lived out. So I think that
you're right. And then when itcomes then that's very freeing
and very energizing, I thinkbecause when it comes to doing
church today, we there's a sensein which we don't have to just
invent it ourselves. But there'sthis depth and this richness in

(34:52):
Scripture when we read itrightly. I think that like, in
my opinion, as an Old Testamentscholar, i. I don't think we can
ever outdo the Scripture, theScriptures, the Bible, in terms
of the fresh imagination.
There's so much imaginationthere to last us a lifetime. You
know, you can kind of come upwith some radical idea. You

(35:12):
know, you're not going to getmuch more radical than say, I
mean, I can think of 100 texts.
Let's go to Deuteronomy, 15,four. There shall be no poor
among you if you spend the restof your life living that puppy
out, right? You want to getradical. You know what? I mean?
There's so much imagination inthe Bible, and there's a whole
bunch of imagination of how todo it, you know? Well, we've
gone to Luke 15, one and two,eating with befriending sinners

(35:34):
and eating with them, you know?
Yeah, the Bible will alwaysoutdo our best imaginations and
then just propelling us toimprovise a fresh melody. So
it's like, I mean to come to thepiano, since I'm sitting here,
you know, like, say, in thewestern classical tradition, you

(35:57):
could play C major scale. I'msure all the musicians on the
call, listening to the podcastknow the C major scale, and it's
such beautiful vocabulary. Andall the information is there, if
you like, and we can say thatthe beautiful, the beauty of

(36:17):
that, what we call a diatonicscale, and with the beautiful
harmonies underneath the richtheology of the Bible, and then
we can improvise something newon it.

(37:04):
Something that only ourcommunity can do, a melody that
only our community can play atthis particular time in this
particular neighborhood.

Andy Withrow (37:14):
I like that. It makes me think of I don't know,
I think as kind of drawing a lotof things together, our
conversation around not justdoing the one size fits all
version of church, but findingsomething that's that's local,
that God is doing in our midst.
It makes me think of which canfeel like some pressure, like

(37:38):
some risk, like, oh, but thatkind of puts me on the spot. I
have to I have to do improv. Ihave to improvise. But if we
know our scales, you know, ifwe've been kind of doing the
daily business of followingJesus, engaging in the
disciplines of readingscripture, have learned, leaning
into a rich prayer life,practicing community, all those

(38:02):
things, then we know our scales.
We can, we can play around withit and see what, see what, see
what's in that. We'll see whatGod's doing in the air. That's a
nice image.

Mark Glanville (38:15):
Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah. I often say to
people like, I think the bestideas aren't going to come from
the paid staff. Often the bestideas come from the pews, so to
speak, from and the kind of jobof the paid leaders is to give
energy to the great ideas, andto make those conduits, those

(38:36):
pipelines, nice and smooth, togive them air. Bad Ideas die
natural death. You don't usuallyhave to say no to a bad idea.
They just don't really grow. Butgood ideas, we can give that
energy to. And I reckon that aleader's job, and I like what
you did there. Andy, you justsimplified it. Just get into
these practices, learn yourscales the way that I sometimes
say it is, pray for it, preachfor it, model it so that as a

(38:59):
household and as individuals, asChristian leaders, we're praying
for it and we're preaching forit. We're kind of opening up the
treasures in the biblical story,the imagination for
incarnational community, andseeing what the Spirit births
within our community, withinpeople's imagination, alert to
what's birthing in myimagination as a pastor, but
just as much, if not more,what's the spirit going to

(39:22):
birth? What imagination thecongregation itself, and then
modeling it like, I mean, we'vesaid, you know how Jesus was
friends with all the in invertedcommas, wrong people in the
first century, Jewish world, butactually all the right people in
the kingdom of God. So there'sone ethic, ethical pathway
there's to model it. And I thinkpray for it, you said, mentioned

(39:45):
prayer Andy, and I want to justlift that up. Pray for it,
preach for it, model it. I thinkthat if, if we as a church are
seeking that fresh imaginationfor improvising on the biblical
story, how is it that the Spiritis guiding us, calling us to
improvise? On this story here inthis place, I think a time of of
just prayer is gold. So in thisneighborhood, I mentioned, when

(40:08):
we distributed the cameras inWestern Sydney, Australia, on
Thursday mornings, I invited thewhole church, whoever wanted to
come every Thursday morning at6am to my house, which was next
to the church for prayer. Andwe're kind of praying for
revival. It was 25 years ago.
That's kind of language we wereusing back then. And but we were
praying that the Spirit wouldcome upon us as a church, and
that the Spirit would come uponour neighborhood through us and

(40:31):
and so around 10 people wouldgather at 6am every Thursday
morning. I was a young pastor.
And I made lots of mistakes, butthat was one little thing that I
did right, that we prayed, andwe prayed, asking God to come by
the Spirit and to give us thatfresh imagination. And as the

(40:52):
Spirit comes upon us, we hadthat conviction the Spirit would
come upon our neighborhood aswell through us. And some people
never came to prayer, but theyknew we were praying, and they
were so grateful that we werepraying. Perhaps people were too
old to come or their work times.
And I remember there was thismoment that year when we were
just praying. We didn't have thebright ideas, we weren't

(41:13):
particularly active, but we werejust praying. There was this
moment after a service wherePat, who was a retired lady,
perhaps around in her late 70s,she came up to me, and she'd
never come to prayer. You know,she was that age where she
didn't want to get up at 530 whowants to get up at 530 anyway?
She came up to me and she said,Mark, I just want to do

(41:33):
something. She had so muchenergy and anticipation, I just
want to do something. And thatwas the moment where I knew I
just had this strong sense.
God's going to answer ourprayer. Because the spirit was
growing, this energy among us,you know, we still didn't know
what we were going to do. Butthat wasn't the point, you know.

(41:54):
And I think the cool thing,again, made so many mistakes in
that church, which was my firstfull time parish, but it's
really cool that the ideas camefrom the congregation, right?
Mark, you're coming to Victoriasoon. Oh yeah, we're hanging
out. Are you guys coming towhere you're going to be? You're
already

Andy Withrow (42:13):
there. Vanessa is going to be in California. I'm
going to miss you. Too bad she'ssad to miss it. But

Mark Glanville (42:19):
come on, that's no fun.

Andy Withrow (42:21):
Well, you can come for another conference in the
future. She'll come to that one.
Yeah, I look forward to it. Sothis is the we've been talking
about this on on our one otherepisode on this podcast. Is this
blessed are the undoneconference coming up in that
first weekend in June, andyou're gonna, you're gonna be
there. I can't wait. Yeah,you're gonna say some things,

(42:42):
but you also might be playingsome things. I understand saying

Mark Glanville (42:46):
some stuff.
Yeah, more in Washington, aleading jazz singer in Victoria,
killer singer and I doing aduet, 9pm on the Friday night.
Can't wait and and I have my newbook, which is called preaching
in a new key, craftingexpository sermons in post
Christian communities, preachingin a new key. And I'm doing a

(43:06):
workshop on that book. But bestof all, just get to hang out
with you guys, sounds, Vanessaand just, yeah, just get to
chill out and meet the somecreative Christ followers,
compassionate Christ followersin Victoria and my partner,
Aaron's coming to Aaron leads aflourishing church called
artisan church in Vancouver. Andyeah, yes. And so she we both

(43:26):
just said, of course, we'regoing to come just a chance to
network with you guys and hangout and and get to know, you
know what the Spirit's up to onthe island. We can't wait to be
with you.

Vanessa Caruso (43:39):
Fun. So jealous.
Yeah, you should be, yeah, geez,yeah,

Mark Glanville (43:43):
man, you go to the States. Finesse, yeah,
bringing the love to the states

Vanessa Caruso (43:49):
mark. It was so good to talk to you. I I do feel
unsatisfied, dissatisfied withhow much more I want to talk
about this. Oh, the things Ididn't get to on your list.
Yeah, this is good. It's been I

Andy Withrow (44:02):
only had 29 questions I asked, I think, but
I knew I wasn't

Vanessa Caruso (44:10):
gonna get Yeah, keep talking if we want to.
Yeah, about this, anotherconversation, even, oh,

Andy Withrow (44:15):
like another episode. Yeah, down the road,
yeah, okay, yeah, I'd be, I'd bedone with that. Totally,

Mark Glanville (44:23):
yeah, got it made in the shade, absolutely
once Vanessa is back fromCalifornia. Yeah, I

Andy Withrow (44:28):
didn't get to my, this will be for next time, but
I didn't get to my poly rhythmsquestion. I wanted to hear some
Polish rhythms and figure outtalk a bit about that chapter,
but let's save that for nexttime. Yes, that was a great I
love that

Vanessa Caruso (44:40):
chapter. Let's talk about preaching, because
it's his new book. You're reallyinterested in preaching

Andy Withrow (44:44):
a new key. I don't have that book, but it's, I will
have it soon, because I'm apreacher, so like love to get
through some of these ideas withyou. So that'd be fun.

Mark Glanville (44:53):
Yeah, definitely. Well, it's so good
to be a friend both of you. It'sgoing to be great to hang out.
Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, with you guysat different times, not just
early June.

Vanessa Caruso (45:03):
Thanks so much.
Mark, thanks, Mark, weappreciate it.

Mark Glanville (45:06):
Hey, look us up when you're on the mainland. I
will, I definitely will.

Andy Withrow (45:10):
Yeah, it went by fast. In it really fast. Yeah,
we didn't book enough time, no.
But on the other hand, we can't,I don't know if a two hour
podcast will fly, will sell?
Well,

Vanessa Caruso (45:20):
no, I don't think so, but there's so much
piano, which I love.

Andy Withrow (45:23):
Yeah, it was fun.
You're thinking return guest,oh,

Vanessa Caruso (45:27):
100% like, just gonna be patient. Okay, so
remember when I said that Iwanted us to practice
improvisation a little bit inthe conversation? Oh, yeah. And
then at the end, reflect on howdid we do? Were there any
improvis, improvisationalqualities? What do you think?
How did we do?

Andy Withrow (45:49):
Yeah, it was good.
I mean, it was like, I came witha bunch of notes, yeah, from the
book, yeah, and a bunch ofquestion ideas, and we didn't, I
mean, we just went all over theplace. It was just, like, it was
just a conversation, yeah? Sothat was improvised?

Vanessa Caruso (46:04):
No, that is that, that was, that's what, I
think that's where we did it,yeah. So something that
surprised me, that happens inimprov is you get surprised
because you didn't plan whereyou're gonna go. Was how many
questions he asked us, right?
And I was a little unpreparedfor that, yes,

Andy Withrow (46:20):
like, so it was like, he was wait, were the
interviewers? Yeah, hello. It's

Vanessa Caruso (46:25):
like, No, I and I totally was unprepared for
that. I don't I wasn't planningto talk about the table, about
Victoria's wind, yeah, but thatis a tenet of improvisation, is
you actually listen and then youactually respond based on what
you heard, right? Not on whereyou were pre planned to go. So

(46:46):
he was doing it with us bymaking us talk too, so that it
was a cheer back and forth.
Yeah,

Andy Withrow (46:53):
when I saw the title of Mark's book, you know,
he's, he's coming to thisconference, like, oh, let's
check out his books. He's got afew books out in like,
improvising church. He justjumped out to me because there's
something that's just even withthis whole Blessed are the
undone, interviewing Angela afew weeks ago, reading the book,

(47:15):
Thinking through other, biggerthings that are going on in the
world, in our country, in thechurch, in in in my church and
our communities, it's like,yeah, this is, this is something
that's in the water. That isdefinitely a direction we need
to move towards, is being morecomfortable in our in our I

(47:36):
don't know church experiences,church worship services to go
off script a bit yes and yeahand address what's what's
happening, or what's being feltin the moment, and those sorts
of having a bit more comfortdoing that. Yes.

Vanessa Caruso (47:51):
That surprised me was his emphasis on place.
You know, I wasn't. I hadn'treally thought a ton about
place. Of course, it's in hisbook a lot, but I hadn't really
translated that, and it made merealize that is, improvisation
is about place. My mainconnotation with improv is new
versus old. Like, oh, let's notdo the old hymns. Let's do a new

(48:14):
song. You know, I think, oh,Let's improvise on the theme,
yeah. But really, I don't thinkimprov is as much about new
versus old as it is about hereversus there, right? It is
taking into consideration who'shere, what's going on, what is
the Spirit doing, who are thepeople, and how are we going to

(48:35):
work with what's here instead ofthere? So the emphasis on place
actually made a lot of sense tome. And didn't you like how he
said, song and place have arelationship, like
neurologically or something? Itmade me think of movies because
they curate the soundtrack towhat's happening, and the

(48:55):
relationship between them isamazing. You know, when you
watch a movie that's set in thisreally particular place, and
there's music that goes alongwith it. It like cements it in
your head. Yes,

Andy Withrow (49:05):
yeah, I agree with all that. That's all true. And
so trying to think about, what'sthe Yeah, you might think of
individualistically, what's thesoundtrack of my life right now?
Those are kind of goodreflectional questions. You
could also maybe apply that abit more broadly, what's the
soundtrack of Victoria rightnow, and why Vancouver Island or
our little our little community?
Yes, embedded nestled in ourneighborhoods in Victoria, yeah,

(49:28):
or where we're at that. Yeah,those all seem like really
important and good questions,instead of just driving to be
like our perception of whereevery what everything else is
like right now, yeah, like, Idon't know. I mean, I think in

(49:48):
this comes out in his book too,is like, there is a there is a
play in that, because there isthe global historic church in
the in the treasury of prayer.
And theology and tradition andall this stuff to take from, but
to not neglect the here and thenow and the local. Okay, what's
our what's our note to play inthis in this moment? Yeah,

(50:11):
that's pretty fun. So

Vanessa Caruso (50:12):
that makes me think that something I'm
surprised about is the researchrequired to do this. Well, like
to know who you have and whattheir gifts are. We didn't talk
about being a leaderful church,which he talks a lot about in
the book. And I love that idea,just overflowing with leaders

(50:33):
and the lay leaders, like therole of the lay leaders in the
future, but you have to, like,pay attention. You know, he gave
the story of giving disposablecameras to everybody, and that's
like a research project. That'ssomething my sister in law would
do who, like, runs a hugeresearch organization, you know,
so that that was new to me,like, it's gonna take some work

(50:55):
and creativity to figure out,yeah, like, who's at the table,
and what is God doing throughthe people there? You kind of
have to get to know them. Yeah,

Andy Withrow (51:05):
yeah. Well, it makes me think of you saw this
last month, I think. But we had,at our last Leadership Retreat,
we had this huge roll of blankpaper exactly the line down the
middle, yes, and I have aterrible memory, but we have 15
years of history in ourcommunity at the table, and it's
hard for me to remember allthese people, but I can't

(51:28):
remember. When were they here,and when did they you know, when
did they move on to this thingor that thing, and when did this
happen? And so I just outsourcedall that work on the community
and said, Hey, here's thetimeline. We started in 2009
years, 2024, at the time. Andthey just people just filled in
stuff. I couldn't even remember.
It's like, Oh yeah, thathappened. Oh yeah. People were

(51:50):
remembering baptisms,remembering marriages, remember
who worked here, when? What?
Some down to things that peoplesaid that, you know, stuck with
them over the years like thatwas like, a really fun community
project.

Vanessa Caruso (52:05):
Andy, good thing you have a bad memory, because
that was way better than if youhad, was it one and you just
presented.

Andy Withrow (52:11):
Everyone got to bring what they remembered, what
stuck out to them from, yeah,our history. I

Vanessa Caruso (52:16):
was so moved by that timeline. I believe that
even if I didn't know a lot ofthe people on it, I would have
been so moved, because there wasthings like this person first
saw this person, his futurewife, leading worship, you know,
on this day and this year,right? It was amazing. Yeah.

Andy Withrow (52:32):
So that gets me wanting to do more of that kind
of stuff, yeah? Is like, thosekind of little experimental
things that people want toparticipate in, you just got to
be thinking of, what, how can Ikind of unlock, I think part of
the role of a pastor or or a layleader, or a leader in a church
is just doing some of that work.
Of, how do I organize this? Or,how do I just kind of start a

(52:53):
little fire here that that justpicks up and goes like that, is
a good example of I did verylittle, yes, blank, long, blank
piece of paper that thatLindsay, our kids director, gave
me because she had a bunch ofYeah, straight line tick marks.
Years go and people, peoplejust, it just came alive. It's a

(53:15):
great example. So finding those,finding those little things
where, where people can fill itout. Bring fill out the church,
I guess, yeah, fill out thecommunity. Another

Vanessa Caruso (53:27):
example I thought of was Kathleen at
holidaying for Holy Week. Yeah,had printed out the Stations of
the Cross, all of them and kindof the traditional title and
imagery that went out, and thenbought 16 canvases, right? You
know, kind of big, I don't know,like 18 by 20 or something, and

(53:50):
asked for volunteers to takethem home, and assigned a
station of the cross. And thenwe all painted them, and then
brought them. And now they're uparound the church, and so
they're the old Stations of theCross, but they're translated
through all these people.
That's, I mean, I loved gettingto know people through looking
at them, looking at the name,and being like, they did that
like I wouldn't have guessedthat they would have done that.

(54:13):
Yeah, that's,

Andy Withrow (54:14):
that's a really good example. I wonder. I think
a fun we should write this down,but I think because I don't
remember it, but I think a funthing to do it, when we're done
interviewing all these peoplefrom from out of town who are
coming here, is if we couldspend some time with pastors or
or lay leaders in the communitysay, what is, what are things
like this that your church hasdone that was just like really,

(54:36):
kind of added to the sense ofcommunity, and what, what God is
revealing through the community,would be Pretty fun. We need to
do

Vanessa Caruso (54:42):
that. Andy, because that was part of what
the interview was so good at. Hegave examples and ideas which,
which sparked mine. I didn'tthink I had any. I was like,
I've never done anything withplace or people in my life.
Maybe, maybe I have been maybe Ihaven't seen it. Yeah. So this
will inspire other people toeven remember there. Own ways.
They've done it without callingit that, like, Oh, we're
improvising, yeah, payingattention to place. No, we're

(55:06):
just, like, organically, yeah,trying to be disciples together.
Yeah,

Andy Withrow (55:11):
that's right. For me, it was just trying to solve
a simple problem, like, I can'tremember anything, which, okay,
that's one

Vanessa Caruso (55:17):
of my favorite parts about improv, is the
resourcefulness, like limitationis actually so soothing, because
it means we have to work withwhat we have. Yeah, and there
are so many resources, actually.
So I like being confined orlimited or restricted or weak at
something, and then having tofigure out how to work with what
is that's fun. Okay, somethingelse I liked? Okay? He was like,

(55:41):
Oh, I heard this line, and itwas so amazing. Do you remember
this part? Oh, the musical?
Yeah, yes. I don't know music.
So I was like, they call himlines too, yeah? Because I'm
waiting for him to say a quote.
I love quotes. I have, like, awhole file of quotes, you know,
folder. It's a musical quote.
Yeah. He loves musical quotes.
So that was fun to see amusician be like, Oh, I heard

(56:03):
this quote. Do you guys want tohear it? And I'm ready to with
my pen to take it down. And he'slike, and he's like, isn't that
amazing? And I'm like, What didyou just say? And he's like, I
learned it in every key. It'sjust such an amazing quote. So
that

Andy Withrow (56:18):
was kind of like, sounds like, meditation, yeah?
Like, like, taking one verse sayLectio. And yeah, Lectio. And
just doing, just spending timeon that in different, different
spaces,

Vanessa Caruso (56:33):
exactly. Isn't that cool? You can do that with
music. I didn't know that thatwas a favorite part. Formation
was a favorite part of theconversation. We didn't
explicitly talk about that, butimplicitly him doing his scales
every day. He's alreadyaccomplished. He doesn't need to
do anymore. He's probably amaster according to 10,000 hours

(56:53):
or whatever, and yet he stilldoes the basics, which to me is
so validating about ourcontemplative practices, yeah,
like we might not feel like it.
We might be having a bad day. Wemight be having a busy week. We
might be feeling superunspiritual. Yes, do your
skills. Yes, if you can, yes,and just do the basics, don't
evaluate it and move on. Andtrust that by doing them, you're

(57:16):
you're growing in yourtechnique, which will be called
on more than any of us want inour lifetime. Yeah, in order,
like for those special notes tocome out, if we keep the
practice up, does that makesense? It does

Andy Withrow (57:33):
make a lot of sense. No, that that did
resonate with me. That piece forsure. That was fun.

Vanessa Caruso (57:37):
Have you heard of the parable of the ABCs? No,
oh, I guess it's a joke or ariddle. It's real. It's not even
called that, but I just think ofit as the ABCs. Okay, you've
probably heard of it. Okay, afarmer falls asleep in his farm
before the Sabbath, so he'ssupposed to go home. This is in

(57:58):
the olden days, yeah, this isall from memory the good old
days, yes. And so he fallsasleep. And so when he makes his
way home on the Sabbath, whichis sort of supposed to be home,
he comes across a very perturbedrabbi who is like, I can't
believe you were so carelesswith your time. I hope you at
least prayed while you were outthere in the field like I hope

(58:19):
you made did something good withthis poor time management of
yours, and the farmer responds,you know, well, I'm not a clever
man. I don't actually know howto pray properly, so all I did
was recite the alphabet, and Ilet God fashion the words
himself that he wanted to out ofreciting the alphabet. So all I

(58:40):
did all night was just ABCDEFG,he's ridiculous, you know,
probably slowly and just trustedthat out of that God could hear
and make his own prayers. That'sThat, to me, are the scales and
a little bit of silence everyday, a little bit of Scripture
every day, a little bit ofreflection every day. Those are

(59:01):
just, I'm just reciting theABCs, yeah, sometimes fast,
sometimes slow, sometimes Iforget a letter, yeah. Sometimes
they feel amazing, and I saythem so well. But really, we're
trusting that in that we'reopening ourselves up to God to
fashion some way holier, yeah,and more eloquent prayers than
we could come up with ourselves.
Yeah, that's good.

Andy Withrow (59:25):
Maybe we should do an episode on the ABCs. I love

Vanessa Caruso (59:28):
the at some point. Okay, there's so much
there, yeah? Acrostics. I loveacrostic Psalms, the limitation
of having to start with ABCD.
FG,

Andy Withrow (59:36):
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. I like that. That's good.
Anything

Vanessa Caruso (59:41):
else,

Andy Withrow (59:43):
it was fun, really was it was fun, yeah, and that
time just went by so fast. Butyeah, we should say again, the
conference, yes, and thewebsite. I. Always forget that
website and the name of the bookwe talked about with Mark.

Vanessa Caruso (01:00:04):
So Mark's book is called improvising church
Scripture as the source ofharmony, rhythm and soul. He has
a new book out too aboutpreaching. He's going to be a
performer on Friday night at theconference, June 6 and seventh.
Blessed are the undone inVictoria, doing a duet with an
amazing jazz musician and thenleading a workshop on Saturday,

Andy Withrow (01:00:27):
on preaching, on preaching. I'm preaching in a
new key, which is the name ofhis his book, and

Vanessa Caruso (01:00:31):
his partner is part of artisan. How cool is
that? Yeah, I

Andy Withrow (01:00:35):
didn't know that.
Yeah, it's fun. I think we didit. Great. Good job. Vanessa,
you too. Andy, thanks everybody.
We'll do this again. Two down,hopefully a bunch more to go.
Goodbye everybody. Bye.

Vanessa Caruso (01:00:57):
Thanks for listening to coastal theology, a
podcast from the VancouverIsland School of Theology and
the arts. For more informationon Vista, go to VISTA canada.org
you.