March 21, 2024 • 31 mins
When love morphs into a battlefield, where do we turn for reinforcements? Our latest conversation with Lillian plunges into the heart of marital strife, offering a lifeline of communication strategies and the healing balm of apologies. With empathy and wisdom, this episode peels back the curtain on the intimate dance of knowing your partner's inner storms—from the thunder of anger to the quiet despair of loss. As we uncover the significance of regular check-ins and date nights, Lillian's heartfelt narrative reminds us that reaching out for counseling is an act of bravery, a beacon for those navigating the rocky terrains of togetherness.
Darkness often tries to sneak into the sacred spaces between two people, but we stand vigilant, armed with prayer and forgiveness. Hear the gripping accounts of women who have faced the shadows in their homes and relationships, waging war against more than just the tangible. Our discussion with Lillian reveals the crucial role of identifying these spiritual adversaries and the strength found in accountability and perseverance. Through the power of prayer, she shares how forgiveness began to transform not only her situation but her heart, offering a testament to the tenacity required to reclaim love from the grasp of darkness.
Navigating the intricate web of soul ties and therapy can be as complex as the human heart itself. In this episode, we distinguish the bonds that tie souls together and compare them with the mystical connections of twin flames. Addressing the cultural hesitations toward therapy, especially within the Black community, we discuss how faith can amplify the counseling process, guiding us toward healthier relationships. As Lillian shares her wisdom, she becomes a beacon of hope, encouraging us all to harness the power of partnership and faith on this journey towards relationship fulfillment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lillian (00:00):
You don't even know how this person act when they're
angry.
You don't know how they actwhen they lose money, when they
don't have money, when they'redealing with grief.
We just know, like I knew oh,he's a good provider.
I can't tell you how he actedif someone he lost a family
member, or if he doesn't get hisway, or things like that.
Dr Sogade (00:40):
Hello and welcome back to CocoaPods podcast.
My name is Dr Bola Sogade, I'ma women's health specialist and
I'm your host.
We've been talking with Lillianthat's her pseudonym and she's
been sharing her lifeexperiences, her marital
experiences, the difficultiesthat she's gone through and the
(01:01):
triumphs that she's had thetriumphs that they have had as a
couple.
So we continue in theseconversations about difficult
relationships.
In our upcoming episodes,lillian's husband will be
sharing his own lived experiencewith marital conflicts,
triumphs and tribulations andsuccesses.
(01:24):
So please keep listening toHukupods podcast.
Thank you, lillian.
I just want to thank you sovery much for coming to Hukupods
podcast.
You're going to be helping alot of women by sharing your
lived experience and just beinghonest, truthful.
You know telling us everything.
I want you to number one, justif you can give me a summary of
(01:45):
your life, your married life asof now?
and what can women that areeither going through a difficult
relationship whether we'remarried or not, but mostly
they're married going through adifficult relationship, at the
verge of separation or divorce,and or wanting to fight for this
relationship, and with andwithout children?
(02:07):
What advice, in summary, wouldyou give them?
So, first of all, pleasesummarize your relationship
issues so far and advice to ourlisteners.
Lillian (02:18):
My relationship issues so far is that we are.
We are at a great place.
We learn how to talk to eachother respectfully.
We learn how to have time out,as we call it.
It's just we do check-ins.
Dr Sogade (02:36):
How often do you do the check-in we?
Lillian (02:37):
do that every night before bed Check-in hey, how are
you doing?
Is anything?
Like you know, let's talk, andthen we just talk about our day,
we just talk about what, and wegive each other affirmations
and we just like you know, Ilike when you did that today,
you know, I really appreciateyou for helping me out today.
We make sure we encourage eachother daily, we make sure we
show more love and affectionthan ever and we also just spend
(03:02):
time with each other at a placethat you know.
Fridays is both of our days off.
So we make that a date night.
Date night is important becauseI'm not the same person.
I was three months ago, a year,three years ago.
He's surely not the same man.
So we have to get to know thenew us.
As we say, we date.
Dating is always necessary andwe just date each other now
(03:25):
Cause back then we wouldn't dateeach other.
I was too hateful, mean, holdingon to grudges, and he was out
in the streets, so we didn'tdate.
So now we date each other andwe getting to know each other.
You know what he don't, what helikes, what he don't like, and
he gets to know me, mepersonally.
It's like up close and personalsome that we should have
checked off the box before wegot married.
So many people rushing tomarriage now without checking
(03:48):
out the box.
You know, you don't even knowhow this person act when they're
angry.
You don't know how they actwhen they lose money, when they
don't have money, when theydealing with grief.
We just know, like I knew, oh,he's a good provider.
I can't tell you how he acted,if someone he lost a family
member, or if he doesn't get hisway or things like that.
I just know he provides good,so I didn't check my box off.
(04:11):
So now I'm just we're takingstep back and just learning to
appreciate respect, love eachother like we both deserve to be
loved, and also we pray moretogether and with the boys, but
more together.
So in a constant fight andbattle, and even if we get in
these spats when we argue withstuff, we never go to bed angry.
(04:33):
So what we do is we talk aboutit Like I need time.
I'm angry at you right now.
I need time.
I didn't like what you do.
I need time before we go to bed.
We're going to talk about this.
We're not going to go a daywithout talking because to me,
not talking build up stuffbuilds on top of each other,
cause you now you want to talkabout now.
(04:53):
I forgot to talk about thatlast week.
You did this a week before Nowit's stuff built on top of each
other so it don't happen all thetime, but when we do have that
time we'll talk and we havethose talks.
I didn't like the way you didthat.
Well, I was angry at youbecause you did this and we
always apologize.
You know, I didn't know that itmakes you feel that way.
(05:14):
I also want to encouragecounseling to people.
My mother age group they didn'tbelieve in counseling.
They believe Jesus was thecounselor.
Age group they didn't believein counseling.
They believe Jesus was thecounselor.
I'm not saying he's not.
I'm saying that outsidecounseling is needed.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay to also pray to Jesusand go to counseling at the
(05:35):
same time, because that's whatGod appointed them for, that's
what he gave them that gift for.
Go to a Christian counseling.
I would advise go to somebodythat been through something.
Also, don't go to anyone thatdoesn't know about marriage,
that doesn't know about nothing.
Just go to someone that canalso give you the tools and also
can encourage you to say, hey,you can overcome this, it's
(05:58):
going to be okay.
Counseling is needed Also.
Kids that are listening go tocounseling.
Parents take the go tocounseling.
Parents take the kids tocounseling.
Because I grew up in thistoxicity household and I saw mom
and dad argue all day and Ithought it was normal to do that
.
When I got married and I didthat in front of my kids and as
a kid I needed counselingbecause I carry what I saw onto
(06:21):
my marriage and look in there asa result and now I have my kids
seeing the same thing.
So counseling is needed for thekids.
And arguing, no, sometimes wecan't help but to argue.
Sometimes it comes out.
But we have to learn how tocontrol our thoughts and tongue
and control our behavior andcontrol our temper.
We are grown folks havingtemper tantrum because we don't
(06:44):
like our way or someone didsomething to us.
It's okay to hold it in and sayI will talk to you later, not
in front of the kids or whatever, because they don't need to see
that, because they will mimicwhat they see.
And unfortunately I did that.
I mimicked what I saw and Ithought that's how marriage
supposed to have been, butcounseling is needed.
Go to counseling.
(07:06):
If you how marriage supposed tohave been, you know, but
counseling is needed.
Go to counseling.
If you don't want to go together, if your spouse don't want to
go with you, go by yourself,because you will find out things
about yourself.
You'll be like, oh, I didn'teven know this about me.
Oh, I didn't know I'm this way.
I found out in counseling I wasa manipulator.
I found out I hold grudges andI didn't know.
(07:26):
But then I went to speak to mymother about this and she said,
oh yeah, I do that too.
Didn't know, because that'swhat I saw.
I grew up on what I saw.
You know I wanted the idealhuxable family.
You know my idea of marriagewas the huxables family, not
what I saw growing up, but Iinfiltrated and put that out on
my kids, what I saw.
And in reality they saw thedamage that was done to me and
(07:52):
their boys and that's not goodbecause they can grow up men
seeing that toxicity, you know,spearing on their wives or
whoever, girlfriends and thingslike that.
So counseling is needed.
Listen to each other, alwayslisten, communicate, fight,
fight, fight, fight.
And I would never stop sayingfight, fight for each other,
(08:15):
fight daily for each other.
No, marriage don't supposed tobe hard, but sometimes it is
hard when you're dealing with adifficult person.
You know marriage is not ashard as people think it is.
It's a constant fight.
But if you're dealing with astubborn, difficult person and
don't forget, if you love Godand you believe in God, we're
not dealing with this person.
(08:36):
We're dealing with spiritsthat's passed down from
generation to generation.
That's been in them, that youknow stubbornness and all this.
You know ego, you know the egoor whatever.
You know men supposed to dothis and women.
These are stuff that you knowwe're battling with and you
think, like this is so hard andthey won't give in, keep praying
(08:57):
, keep praying, keep fighting.
And if you know, if it don'twork for you, don't work for you
, but it works for some people.
And if the fight is in, you,keep fighting, keep fighting the
good fight and let it be wellwith your soul, wow, wow.
Dr Sogade (09:14):
One thing you talked about gosh.
I'm choking because you're justtouching on so many things.
You talked about something tothe effect that if you're a
Christian, that this is not justthat person that there's a
spiritual underlay.
Lillian (09:31):
Yeah, it's a spiritual battle they're fighting because
we're not wrestling againstflesh and blood, we're wrestling
against principalities.
So you got to understand theseare spirits that we're fighting.
My husband looked at me, thatthe entities was in my house and
I I'm a Christian now but Ididn't believe my eyes, what I
was believing, and for him tosay they coming off of me.
(09:54):
I believed him and then thosedreams that I was having those
entities in my dreams that wastelling me I cannot have my
husband, I have him.
You know, this was the enemy,this is the devil telling me
this.
Because I woke up, breathing.
I will wake up, grabbing,holding the Bible.
I wouldn't even wipe the crustout of my eyes because I was so
(10:16):
much in prayer for my husband.
Because when those dreams startcoming, god said all I heard
was pray and I was like God, Iwant to pray for him.
What do you mean?
Pray for this man, this man,this, this man?
And all I heard was pray.
So I started praying.
So every night I used to sendhim text messages I forgive you,
even if even I, I, did notforgive that man.
(10:38):
But it started with just sayingI forgive you and by me, keep
saying I forgive him.
It started making me believelike maybe I really do forgive
him, maybe maybe I can forgivehim, you know, but I started
doing that every night.
He never responded to no textmessages.
He never responded in thosedreams kept coming.
They're kept coming.
So that's why that's how I know, and I'm a true believer, that
(11:01):
I was not battling my husband.
I was battling spirits andremember I told you about the
dreams, about the snakes andeverything.
It was so many of them and myhusband was in so many
activities that I didn't evenknow he was in.
And how do you not know?
That's your husband?
Because I was a homebody, I wasnaive, I was tending to the
kids.
(11:21):
I trust him.
Even if I knew the truth, Istill trusted him because I was
tending to the kids.
I trust him.
Even if I knew the truth, Istill trusted him because I was
so naive and I was young and Ididn't keep up with him.
I was the homegirl, he was theclub person.
So I trusted him and and and Iwas battling spirits and I
remember when I reminded him ofstuff he used to say, he said I
(11:45):
didn't say that.
I was like yes, you did, you'relying to me.
He said I don't remembertelling you that and they don't
remember.
Sometimes You're like, oh,they're lying.
No, they don't remember becausethat's not really them.
That's not really them.
My husband came to me, as crazyas it sounds now, he said he was
laying in the bed with theother woman and he said and this
is when we got to a good place,we can just talk about what he
(12:07):
was doing.
You know, he said he was layingin bed with the other woman.
He remember dozing off into asleep and he remember someone
was in the car.
It looks like a familiar face.
And he said but the familiarface told him I got you right
where you want to be, this iswhere you want to be and you're
not going nowhere.
And he said he knew then it wasthe enemy and he had to leave.
(12:29):
And I was like you're lookingat him, crazy, no-transcript.
He said that's when I had tomake a change in my life, like
what am I doing?
I need to go back home.
You know, he said, but it was afight, a struggle to come back
(12:52):
because of the soul tie, ofcourse, when you have intimacy.
That's why God don't let us tohave sex before marriage.
Because before marriage,because we get you know those
intimacies into someone you'regetting, you're swapping all
that stuff, that fluid and allthat that's intimacy, that's all
that stuff that God didn't wantus to do before we get married.
Because this is theconsequences you know, the soul
(13:14):
ties and all that.
But, yeah, you're fightingenemies, you're fighting spirits
.
And I had to meet him realizeearly on that the true enemy was
the devil.
First of all, it was ourselves.
So once we acknowledge and tookaccountability, we also
acknowledge that, okay, nowwe're fighting a spirit, now we
(13:34):
find a spirit of lust, now wefind a spirit of selfishness.
And now, what can we do toovercome that?
And once my husband said herealized that in the first step
is for recognition.
This is what it is.
And once you recognize it, thesecond step is what you're going
to do for it.
Take accountability, of course,but what are you going to do to
make these steps effective,that it would never happen again
(13:57):
?
And he was taking those propersteps.
And once he started takingthose proper steps and once he
started taking, those propersteps.
Dr Sogade (14:09):
I started taking those proper steps as learning
how to be his wife and justforgiving myself on my part.
You know this spirit thing thatyou talked about.
You know I see a lot of womenevery day and I remember two
recounts.
Number one a woman told me thatyou know she.
Number one a woman told me thatyou know she.
She wasn't fighting with herhusband but he had called and he
was angry and the voice soundedlike it was different, like a
(14:30):
devil's voice, and it wassomething like I think they were
going out of town together andhe was like you know something
like I called your phone, youdidn't pick up.
What are you doing to me?
I'm so mad.
And she was like what?
That is not my husband and thathe, that voice, sounded so angry
.
They were not fighting whenthey left the house and the
other woman told me that therewas a time they were both on the
(14:53):
bed and the husband was.
They were both asleep and thehusband woke up from sleep and
grabbed her and pressed on hereyes with his thumbs and pressed
down and she jumped up likewhat is going on?
What is going on?
And he was like, oh my God,what am I doing?
(15:14):
What am I doing?
And I mean, I found that sostrange.
Lillian (15:19):
It's real.
I remember when my husband cameback to the house and we were
sleeping in the bed and I heardknocking at the windows and I
jumped up and I said, oh,somebody, you didn't got the
people at my house.
And I look at the cameras.
There was no one there.
It was banging Boom boom, boom,boom, boom.
And we both jumped up and welooking at the cameras.
(15:41):
No one was on the cameras.
I remember when we was laying inthe bed and we started praying
together, he used to like, turnand like he's just hurting him
when I was praying with him andhe'll fall asleep every time we
pray together.
He did that for a couple ofmonths and I remember just like
looking at him, like you're so,oh my God, you know, but it
(16:02):
wasn't him, it was the spiritsmaking him sleepy.
They didn't want him to hearthe word.
They was, you know, blockinghis ears so he can receive what
God is trying to say to him.
And he, you know.
And so once he started to fightback, he started to fight back,
he started to recognize it andthat's when he overcame that.
Dr Sogade (16:21):
Now let's take a quick break here before we go
back to Lillian.
She mentioned soul ties.
Now let's talk about soul ties.
Soul ties represent deepspiritual bonds formed with
another individual that gobeyond the usual closeness found
in relationships.
They evoke intense feelings ofattachment, making it difficult
(16:46):
to envision life without thatperson.
The formation of soul ties is aprocess that occurs
spontaneously and unpredictably.
It represents the emergence ofan intense bond between two
individuals.
This connection may ariseinstantly upon their initial
(17:09):
encounter or develop graduallyover time.
Crucially for a soul tie tomaterialize, both individuals
must mutually sense the profoundsignificance of their
relationship.
While soul ties and twin flamesare frequently conflated, they
(17:31):
actually represent distinctkinds of connections.
A soul tie denotes a profoundand intimate bond that can occur
multiple times throughout one'slife.
Conversely, a twin flamesignifies an exceptionally
intense relationship, oftenthought to be orchestrated by a
(17:56):
higher power as thecomplementary half of an
individual soul.
In other words, a twin flameconnection is often described as
a deep soul level relationshipwhere both individuals feel an
instant and profound sense ofrecognition and belonging with
each other.
It's like finding your otherhalf or your perfect match.
(18:19):
This connection is believed tobe incredibly intense and can
involve strong emotions,spiritual growth and personal
transformation.
Twin flames are thought tocomplement each other in a
unique way and often have apowerful impact on each other's
lives.
So what are the different kindsof soul ties?
(18:40):
Each soul tie is unique,reflecting the individual nature
of connections between people.
Some categorize soul ties basedon distinctive traits and
relationship dynamics.
These ties can span fromromantic to platonic, extending
(19:02):
among family members orunrelated individuals, and can
vary widely in their healthinessand stability.
The four categories of soulties physical.
Number one these ties involve aphysical connection often
characterized by sexualchemistry.
(19:22):
Number two emotional.
Emotional ties signify strongfeelings of closeness and
attachment.
Number three mental.
Mental ties are rooted inshared interests, intellectual
pursuits and a profound sense ofkinship.
Number four spiritual.
(19:42):
Spiritual ties are linked tomutual religious or spiritual
beliefs, fostering a deeperconnection on a spiritual level.
How do soul ties form?
Soul ties can emerge suddenlyor gradually, representing the
manifestation of a profound bondbetween two individuals.
(20:04):
This connection may developimmediately upon meeting or
evolve over time.
So both parties must feel thedepth of the relationship for a
soul tie to form.
Identifying a soul tie involvesrecognizing its distinctiveness
from other relationships.
(20:24):
That is, this relationship isdistinctly different from the
others.
When you encounter a soul tie,you often feel an intense
connection and understanding, asif you've been waiting for this
person your whole life.
There's a profound desire tolearn more about them,
accompanied by an urgency.
(20:45):
Indications of a healthy soultie encompass feeling energized
after spending time together andexperiencing a deep sense of
security in their presence.
You may also find yourselfwanting to open up and be
vulnerable around them, feelingprotective of their well-being
(21:08):
and being your authentic selfaround them.
Mutual empathy, respect and adesire to nurture the
relationship furthercharacterize a healthy soul tie.
Relationship furthercharacterize a healthy soul tie.
On the other hand, signs of anunhealthy soul tie may include
(21:28):
experiencing separation, anxietywhen apart, jealousy towards
their other relationships orrelying solely on them for
emotional support.
Other indicators may involveexcessively monitoring their
activities, feeling drained orjudged after interactions and
sacrificing personal interestsor connections for the sake of
(21:53):
the relationship.
Unhealthy soul ties resemblingcodependent or abusive
relationships often involve adisproportionate level of
emotional attachment anddependency.
In such cases, individuals mayfeel emotionally trapped,
(22:15):
finding it challenging to breakfree from the bond, despite
recognizing its detrimentaleffects.
This sense of entrapment canbreed feelings of resentment
towards the other person oroneself for being unable to
disengage from the unhealthyconnection.
(22:35):
Moreover, staying in suchdynamics can inflict significant
distress on one's emotionalwell-being.
Individuals may experienceheightened levels of anxiety,
depression or even traumasymptoms due to the toxic nature
of the relationship.
(22:55):
These emotional challenges canspill over into other areas of
life, impacting personalrelationships, work or academic
performance and overallsatisfaction with life.
Furthermore, unhealthy soulties can impede one's ability to
(23:20):
engage in self-care practiceseffectively.
Individuals may neglect theirown needs, prioritize the needs
of the other person above theirown, or even engage in
self-destructive behaviors tomaintain the connection.
This neglect of self-care canmake emotional distress worse
(23:40):
and hinder the individual'sability to cope with the
challenges posed by theunhealthy relationship.
Overall, recognizing andaddressing the dangers of
unhealthy soul ties is crucialfor safeguarding one's emotional
well-being and promotinghealthier relationships and
(24:03):
lifestyles.
This may involve seekingsupport from trusted friends,
family members or mental healthprofessionals to navigate the
process of disentanglement andprioritize self-care and
personal growth.
And prioritize self-care andpersonal growth and, as I guess
(24:23):
was talking about in a biblicalcontext, soul ties are often
interpreted as deep spiritualconnections formed between
individuals rooted in sharedbeliefs, values and experiences.
While the term quote-unquotesoul tie itself is not
(24:43):
explicitly mentioned in theBible.
Some believers draw parallelsto biblical principles regarding
relationships, particularly inthe context of marriage, family
and spiritual kingship.
Many Christians view soul tiesas reflective of the
(25:04):
interconnectedness of souls,emphasizing the spiritual bond
between individuals that goesbeyond physical or emotional
connections.
This perspective is ofteninfluenced by passages in the
Bible that speak of unity, suchas in Genesis 2, verse 24, which
(25:26):
describes the union betweenhusband and wife as becoming one
flesh, quote unquote.
Additionally, some biblicalscholars and Christian teachings
caution against formingunhealthy soul ties,
particularly those rooted inimmoral or idolatrous behavior.
(25:48):
This perspective draws frombiblical admonitions against
sexual immorality, as in 1Corinthians 6, verses 16 to 18.
And it warns believers againstbecoming unequally yoked with
unbelievers, and that is in 2Corinthians 6, 14.
(26:09):
Overall, the biblical spiritualconnotation of soul ties
underscores the importance ofcultivating healthy, underscores
the importance of cultivatinghealthy, god-honoring
relationships characterized bymutual love, respect and
spiritual alignment.
It encourages believers toprioritize spiritual discernment
(26:33):
and seek guidance from thescripture and prayer in
navigating their relationshipsand connections with others.
Yeah, so you know?
You know.
Thank you so much for talkingabout therapy, and I know you
know in your mothers, becauseabout how old is your mom?
Lillian (26:51):
Mom is 58.
Dr Sogade (26:52):
Yeah, I guess then in her time therapy was not a
thing as much as it is now.
No, so number one do blackpeople go for therapy a lot?
Lillian (27:02):
Yeah.
So you know, when growing up inwhat I grew up in my community,
you know black people did notbelieve in therapy.
Therapy was Jesus and that'sjust black.
And if we have other sistersout there there's other colors
and cultures that's just what inour culture and I'm quite sure
you probably experiencing yourculture as well but in our
(27:24):
ethnic group that was not athing.
We always hush, hush or youdon't want nobody in your
business.
You know Jesus is going to makeit work.
You're not praying hard enough.
You're depressed.
Go wash dishes, go clean yourhouse.
You know this is just thingsthat happen and that systematic
thing that we used to, you know,embarked on well, got depressed
on and pressed down into us andpassed down from generation.
(27:47):
It is not true.
Go to therapy because youngerpeople now in their 20s, 18s, 30
and younger are in therapybecause of mothers in their 58s,
you know, and 60, and what theypassed down onto their children
, because that's what theirmother passed down onto them.
(28:08):
And now you see a bunch ofyounger kids in therapy because
of this traumatized situationhappened or, with their mother,
should have went to therapy for,However, they saw what they saw
, you know.
So therapy is a must.
Please, black people, go totherapy.
Don't dismiss therapy.
Go to therapy.
(28:28):
Go to you know your girlfriendsis okay, but go to someone
that's professional.
They can give you tools, it'sokay.
They're not wanted.
They don't want to know yourbusiness.
They want to help you.
They want to help you.
They want to guide you.
They want to give you the toolsto help you in life.
So, please, please, go.
Don't be scared.
If you have the money, go, andthere's resources out there.
Find the resource.
(28:49):
Go to therapy.
And if you're married you don'twant to go together, go for
yourself.
And if you can go together, gotogether.
But I also recommend go foryourself, because sometimes you
don't want to discuss the thingsin your marriage together, and
sometimes it's.
You need to be worked on, youknow, because we don't want to
blame ourself or takeaccountability, but it starts
(29:10):
with you.
Work on yourself first and thenwork on the marriage.
Well thank you very much.
Thank you, yeah, yeah.
So thank you so much for havingus.
Thank you, yeah, yeah.
So thank you so much for havingus and I will want to bring my
husband back next time so he cantell his side of the story.
So men out there men out thereas well as women hear these
(29:33):
things coming from a man of why,why and the reasons or what do
they think?
And it's so much clearer if youwant to hear it from a man
perspective, of why they do thethings they do, cause I know we
all have those same.
So like why you know, and womenis not.
You don't blame yourself, don'tsay oh, you know, it's me, I
(29:54):
didn't, don't, it's not you.
If you do not want to stay in abroken relationship it could be
a job, a marriage, a friendship,whatever it is go.
I'm not encouraging nobody tostay, but if you got some fight
in you and I'm saying the fightas in, both of you guys are
fighting, not just one person,both of you guys are fighting,
(30:16):
both of you guys are prayingbecause, like I said, it's not
the, it's not that person, it'sthe enemy.
And if you both can cometogether, because God said, when
two become together, he will bein the midst.
Let God be in the midst becauseboth of y'all are fighting.
Now guess what?
God has to step in and thevictory will be won and it is
all well, and it will be wellwith you guys' souls.
(30:39):
So keep fighting and let youboth fight together, and in the
end, the battle was already won.
Dr Sogade (30:45):
Lillian, thank you so very much for coming to
CocoaPods podcast.
You know we're going to find away to have you again.
Thank you for encouraging women.
You know children, families,and you know, thank God, that
your marriage, your relationship, is on this.
I mean, I look at you, you're abeautiful woman, thank you.
You are too, thank you, andthis is just a success story and
(31:08):
I know you guys keep fightingto work at it, so thank you very
much for coming.
Thank you, take care.
You don't even know how this person act when they're
angry.
You don't know how they actwhen they lose money, when they
don't have money, when they'redealing with grief.
We just know, like I knew oh,he's a good provider.
I can't tell you how he actedif someone he lost a family
member, or if he doesn't get hisway, or things like that.
Dr Sogade (00:40):
Hello and welcome back to CocoaPods podcast.
My name is Dr Bola Sogade, I'ma women's health specialist and
I'm your host.
We've been talking with Lillianthat's her pseudonym and she's
been sharing her lifeexperiences, her marital
experiences, the difficultiesthat she's gone through and the
(01:01):
triumphs that she's had thetriumphs that they have had as a
couple.
So we continue in theseconversations about difficult
relationships.
In our upcoming episodes,lillian's husband will be
sharing his own lived experiencewith marital conflicts,
triumphs and tribulations andsuccesses.
(01:24):
So please keep listening toHukupods podcast.
Thank you, lillian.
I just want to thank you sovery much for coming to Hukupods
podcast.
You're going to be helping alot of women by sharing your
lived experience and just beinghonest, truthful.
You know telling us everything.
I want you to number one, justif you can give me a summary of
(01:45):
your life, your married life asof now?
and what can women that areeither going through a difficult
relationship whether we'remarried or not, but mostly
they're married going through adifficult relationship, at the
verge of separation or divorce,and or wanting to fight for this
relationship, and with andwithout children?
(02:07):
What advice, in summary, wouldyou give them?
So, first of all, pleasesummarize your relationship
issues so far and advice to ourlisteners.
Lillian (02:18):
My relationship issues so far is that we are.
We are at a great place.
We learn how to talk to eachother respectfully.
We learn how to have time out,as we call it.
It's just we do check-ins.
Dr Sogade (02:36):
How often do you do the check-in we?
Lillian (02:37):
do that every night before bed Check-in hey, how are
you doing?
Is anything?
Like you know, let's talk, andthen we just talk about our day,
we just talk about what, and wegive each other affirmations
and we just like you know, Ilike when you did that today,
you know, I really appreciateyou for helping me out today.
We make sure we encourage eachother daily, we make sure we
show more love and affectionthan ever and we also just spend
(03:02):
time with each other at a placethat you know.
Fridays is both of our days off.
So we make that a date night.
Date night is important becauseI'm not the same person.
I was three months ago, a year,three years ago.
He's surely not the same man.
So we have to get to know thenew us.
As we say, we date.
Dating is always necessary andwe just date each other now
(03:25):
Cause back then we wouldn't dateeach other.
I was too hateful, mean, holdingon to grudges, and he was out
in the streets, so we didn'tdate.
So now we date each other andwe getting to know each other.
You know what he don't, what helikes, what he don't like, and
he gets to know me, mepersonally.
It's like up close and personalsome that we should have
checked off the box before wegot married.
So many people rushing tomarriage now without checking
(03:48):
out the box.
You know, you don't even knowhow this person act when they're
angry.
You don't know how they actwhen they lose money, when they
don't have money, when theydealing with grief.
We just know, like I knew, oh,he's a good provider.
I can't tell you how he acted,if someone he lost a family
member, or if he doesn't get hisway or things like that.
I just know he provides good,so I didn't check my box off.
(04:11):
So now I'm just we're takingstep back and just learning to
appreciate respect, love eachother like we both deserve to be
loved, and also we pray moretogether and with the boys, but
more together.
So in a constant fight andbattle, and even if we get in
these spats when we argue withstuff, we never go to bed angry.
(04:33):
So what we do is we talk aboutit Like I need time.
I'm angry at you right now.
I need time.
I didn't like what you do.
I need time before we go to bed.
We're going to talk about this.
We're not going to go a daywithout talking because to me,
not talking build up stuffbuilds on top of each other,
cause you now you want to talkabout now.
(04:53):
I forgot to talk about thatlast week.
You did this a week before Nowit's stuff built on top of each
other so it don't happen all thetime, but when we do have that
time we'll talk and we havethose talks.
I didn't like the way you didthat.
Well, I was angry at youbecause you did this and we
always apologize.
You know, I didn't know that itmakes you feel that way.
(05:14):
I also want to encouragecounseling to people.
My mother age group they didn'tbelieve in counseling.
They believe Jesus was thecounselor.
Age group they didn't believein counseling.
They believe Jesus was thecounselor.
I'm not saying he's not.
I'm saying that outsidecounseling is needed.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay to also pray to Jesusand go to counseling at the
(05:35):
same time, because that's whatGod appointed them for, that's
what he gave them that gift for.
Go to a Christian counseling.
I would advise go to somebodythat been through something.
Also, don't go to anyone thatdoesn't know about marriage,
that doesn't know about nothing.
Just go to someone that canalso give you the tools and also
can encourage you to say, hey,you can overcome this, it's
(05:58):
going to be okay.
Counseling is needed Also.
Kids that are listening go tocounseling.
Parents take the go tocounseling.
Parents take the kids tocounseling.
Because I grew up in thistoxicity household and I saw mom
and dad argue all day and Ithought it was normal to do that
.
When I got married and I didthat in front of my kids and as
a kid I needed counselingbecause I carry what I saw onto
(06:21):
my marriage and look in there asa result and now I have my kids
seeing the same thing.
So counseling is needed for thekids.
And arguing, no, sometimes wecan't help but to argue.
Sometimes it comes out.
But we have to learn how tocontrol our thoughts and tongue
and control our behavior andcontrol our temper.
We are grown folks havingtemper tantrum because we don't
(06:44):
like our way or someone didsomething to us.
It's okay to hold it in and sayI will talk to you later, not
in front of the kids or whatever, because they don't need to see
that, because they will mimicwhat they see.
And unfortunately I did that.
I mimicked what I saw and Ithought that's how marriage
supposed to have been, butcounseling is needed.
Go to counseling.
(07:06):
If you how marriage supposed tohave been, you know, but
counseling is needed.
Go to counseling.
If you don't want to go together, if your spouse don't want to
go with you, go by yourself,because you will find out things
about yourself.
You'll be like, oh, I didn'teven know this about me.
Oh, I didn't know I'm this way.
I found out in counseling I wasa manipulator.
I found out I hold grudges andI didn't know.
(07:26):
But then I went to speak to mymother about this and she said,
oh yeah, I do that too.
Didn't know, because that'swhat I saw.
I grew up on what I saw.
You know I wanted the idealhuxable family.
You know my idea of marriagewas the huxables family, not
what I saw growing up, but Iinfiltrated and put that out on
my kids, what I saw.
And in reality they saw thedamage that was done to me and
(07:52):
their boys and that's not goodbecause they can grow up men
seeing that toxicity, you know,spearing on their wives or
whoever, girlfriends and thingslike that.
So counseling is needed.
Listen to each other, alwayslisten, communicate, fight,
fight, fight, fight.
And I would never stop sayingfight, fight for each other,
(08:15):
fight daily for each other.
No, marriage don't supposed tobe hard, but sometimes it is
hard when you're dealing with adifficult person.
You know marriage is not ashard as people think it is.
It's a constant fight.
But if you're dealing with astubborn, difficult person and
don't forget, if you love Godand you believe in God, we're
not dealing with this person.
(08:36):
We're dealing with spiritsthat's passed down from
generation to generation.
That's been in them, that youknow stubbornness and all this.
You know ego, you know the egoor whatever.
You know men supposed to dothis and women.
These are stuff that you knowwe're battling with and you
think, like this is so hard andthey won't give in, keep praying
(08:57):
, keep praying, keep fighting.
And if you know, if it don'twork for you, don't work for you
, but it works for some people.
And if the fight is in, you,keep fighting, keep fighting the
good fight and let it be wellwith your soul, wow, wow.
Dr Sogade (09:14):
One thing you talked about gosh.
I'm choking because you're justtouching on so many things.
You talked about something tothe effect that if you're a
Christian, that this is not justthat person that there's a
spiritual underlay.
Lillian (09:31):
Yeah, it's a spiritual battle they're fighting because
we're not wrestling againstflesh and blood, we're wrestling
against principalities.
So you got to understand theseare spirits that we're fighting.
My husband looked at me, thatthe entities was in my house and
I I'm a Christian now but Ididn't believe my eyes, what I
was believing, and for him tosay they coming off of me.
(09:54):
I believed him and then thosedreams that I was having those
entities in my dreams that wastelling me I cannot have my
husband, I have him.
You know, this was the enemy,this is the devil telling me
this.
Because I woke up, breathing.
I will wake up, grabbing,holding the Bible.
I wouldn't even wipe the crustout of my eyes because I was so
(10:16):
much in prayer for my husband.
Because when those dreams startcoming, god said all I heard
was pray and I was like God, Iwant to pray for him.
What do you mean?
Pray for this man, this man,this, this man?
And all I heard was pray.
So I started praying.
So every night I used to sendhim text messages I forgive you,
even if even I, I, did notforgive that man.
(10:38):
But it started with just sayingI forgive you and by me, keep
saying I forgive him.
It started making me believelike maybe I really do forgive
him, maybe maybe I can forgivehim, you know, but I started
doing that every night.
He never responded to no textmessages.
He never responded in thosedreams kept coming.
They're kept coming.
So that's why that's how I know, and I'm a true believer, that
(11:01):
I was not battling my husband.
I was battling spirits andremember I told you about the
dreams, about the snakes andeverything.
It was so many of them and myhusband was in so many
activities that I didn't evenknow he was in.
And how do you not know?
That's your husband?
Because I was a homebody, I wasnaive, I was tending to the
kids.
(11:21):
I trust him.
Even if I knew the truth, Istill trusted him because I was
tending to the kids.
I trust him.
Even if I knew the truth, Istill trusted him because I was
so naive and I was young and Ididn't keep up with him.
I was the homegirl, he was theclub person.
So I trusted him and and and Iwas battling spirits and I
remember when I reminded him ofstuff he used to say, he said I
(11:45):
didn't say that.
I was like yes, you did, you'relying to me.
He said I don't remembertelling you that and they don't
remember.
Sometimes You're like, oh,they're lying.
No, they don't remember becausethat's not really them.
That's not really them.
My husband came to me, as crazyas it sounds now, he said he was
laying in the bed with theother woman and he said and this
is when we got to a good place,we can just talk about what he
(12:07):
was doing.
You know, he said he was layingin bed with the other woman.
He remember dozing off into asleep and he remember someone
was in the car.
It looks like a familiar face.
And he said but the familiarface told him I got you right
where you want to be, this iswhere you want to be and you're
not going nowhere.
And he said he knew then it wasthe enemy and he had to leave.
(12:29):
And I was like you're lookingat him, crazy, no-transcript.
He said that's when I had tomake a change in my life, like
what am I doing?
I need to go back home.
You know, he said, but it was afight, a struggle to come back
(12:52):
because of the soul tie, ofcourse, when you have intimacy.
That's why God don't let us tohave sex before marriage.
Because before marriage,because we get you know those
intimacies into someone you'regetting, you're swapping all
that stuff, that fluid and allthat that's intimacy, that's all
that stuff that God didn't wantus to do before we get married.
Because this is theconsequences you know, the soul
(13:14):
ties and all that.
But, yeah, you're fightingenemies, you're fighting spirits
.
And I had to meet him realizeearly on that the true enemy was
the devil.
First of all, it was ourselves.
So once we acknowledge and tookaccountability, we also
acknowledge that, okay, nowwe're fighting a spirit, now we
(13:34):
find a spirit of lust, now wefind a spirit of selfishness.
And now, what can we do toovercome that?
And once my husband said herealized that in the first step
is for recognition.
This is what it is.
And once you recognize it, thesecond step is what you're going
to do for it.
Take accountability, of course,but what are you going to do to
make these steps effective,that it would never happen again
(13:57):
?
And he was taking those propersteps.
And once he started takingthose proper steps and once he
started taking, those propersteps.
Dr Sogade (14:09):
I started taking those proper steps as learning
how to be his wife and justforgiving myself on my part.
You know this spirit thing thatyou talked about.
You know I see a lot of womenevery day and I remember two
recounts.
Number one a woman told me thatyou know she.
Number one a woman told me thatyou know she.
She wasn't fighting with herhusband but he had called and he
was angry and the voice soundedlike it was different, like a
(14:30):
devil's voice, and it wassomething like I think they were
going out of town together andhe was like you know something
like I called your phone, youdidn't pick up.
What are you doing to me?
I'm so mad.
And she was like what?
That is not my husband and thathe, that voice, sounded so angry
.
They were not fighting whenthey left the house and the
other woman told me that therewas a time they were both on the
(14:53):
bed and the husband was.
They were both asleep and thehusband woke up from sleep and
grabbed her and pressed on hereyes with his thumbs and pressed
down and she jumped up likewhat is going on?
What is going on?
And he was like, oh my God,what am I doing?
(15:14):
What am I doing?
And I mean, I found that sostrange.
Lillian (15:19):
It's real.
I remember when my husband cameback to the house and we were
sleeping in the bed and I heardknocking at the windows and I
jumped up and I said, oh,somebody, you didn't got the
people at my house.
And I look at the cameras.
There was no one there.
It was banging Boom boom, boom,boom, boom.
And we both jumped up and welooking at the cameras.
(15:41):
No one was on the cameras.
I remember when we was laying inthe bed and we started praying
together, he used to like, turnand like he's just hurting him
when I was praying with him andhe'll fall asleep every time we
pray together.
He did that for a couple ofmonths and I remember just like
looking at him, like you're so,oh my God, you know, but it
(16:02):
wasn't him, it was the spiritsmaking him sleepy.
They didn't want him to hearthe word.
They was, you know, blockinghis ears so he can receive what
God is trying to say to him.
And he, you know.
And so once he started to fightback, he started to fight back,
he started to recognize it andthat's when he overcame that.
Dr Sogade (16:21):
Now let's take a quick break here before we go
back to Lillian.
She mentioned soul ties.
Now let's talk about soul ties.
Soul ties represent deepspiritual bonds formed with
another individual that gobeyond the usual closeness found
in relationships.
They evoke intense feelings ofattachment, making it difficult
(16:46):
to envision life without thatperson.
The formation of soul ties is aprocess that occurs
spontaneously and unpredictably.
It represents the emergence ofan intense bond between two
individuals.
This connection may ariseinstantly upon their initial
(17:09):
encounter or develop graduallyover time.
Crucially for a soul tie tomaterialize, both individuals
must mutually sense the profoundsignificance of their
relationship.
While soul ties and twin flamesare frequently conflated, they
(17:31):
actually represent distinctkinds of connections.
A soul tie denotes a profoundand intimate bond that can occur
multiple times throughout one'slife.
Conversely, a twin flamesignifies an exceptionally
intense relationship, oftenthought to be orchestrated by a
(17:56):
higher power as thecomplementary half of an
individual soul.
In other words, a twin flameconnection is often described as
a deep soul level relationshipwhere both individuals feel an
instant and profound sense ofrecognition and belonging with
each other.
It's like finding your otherhalf or your perfect match.
(18:19):
This connection is believed tobe incredibly intense and can
involve strong emotions,spiritual growth and personal
transformation.
Twin flames are thought tocomplement each other in a
unique way and often have apowerful impact on each other's
lives.
So what are the different kindsof soul ties?
(18:40):
Each soul tie is unique,reflecting the individual nature
of connections between people.
Some categorize soul ties basedon distinctive traits and
relationship dynamics.
These ties can span fromromantic to platonic, extending
(19:02):
among family members orunrelated individuals, and can
vary widely in their healthinessand stability.
The four categories of soulties physical.
Number one these ties involve aphysical connection often
characterized by sexualchemistry.
(19:22):
Number two emotional.
Emotional ties signify strongfeelings of closeness and
attachment.
Number three mental.
Mental ties are rooted inshared interests, intellectual
pursuits and a profound sense ofkinship.
Number four spiritual.
(19:42):
Spiritual ties are linked tomutual religious or spiritual
beliefs, fostering a deeperconnection on a spiritual level.
How do soul ties form?
Soul ties can emerge suddenlyor gradually, representing the
manifestation of a profound bondbetween two individuals.
(20:04):
This connection may developimmediately upon meeting or
evolve over time.
So both parties must feel thedepth of the relationship for a
soul tie to form.
Identifying a soul tie involvesrecognizing its distinctiveness
from other relationships.
(20:24):
That is, this relationship isdistinctly different from the
others.
When you encounter a soul tie,you often feel an intense
connection and understanding, asif you've been waiting for this
person your whole life.
There's a profound desire tolearn more about them,
accompanied by an urgency.
(20:45):
Indications of a healthy soultie encompass feeling energized
after spending time together andexperiencing a deep sense of
security in their presence.
You may also find yourselfwanting to open up and be
vulnerable around them, feelingprotective of their well-being
(21:08):
and being your authentic selfaround them.
Mutual empathy, respect and adesire to nurture the
relationship furthercharacterize a healthy soul tie.
Relationship furthercharacterize a healthy soul tie.
On the other hand, signs of anunhealthy soul tie may include
(21:28):
experiencing separation, anxietywhen apart, jealousy towards
their other relationships orrelying solely on them for
emotional support.
Other indicators may involveexcessively monitoring their
activities, feeling drained orjudged after interactions and
sacrificing personal interestsor connections for the sake of
(21:53):
the relationship.
Unhealthy soul ties resemblingcodependent or abusive
relationships often involve adisproportionate level of
emotional attachment anddependency.
In such cases, individuals mayfeel emotionally trapped,
(22:15):
finding it challenging to breakfree from the bond, despite
recognizing its detrimentaleffects.
This sense of entrapment canbreed feelings of resentment
towards the other person oroneself for being unable to
disengage from the unhealthyconnection.
(22:35):
Moreover, staying in suchdynamics can inflict significant
distress on one's emotionalwell-being.
Individuals may experienceheightened levels of anxiety,
depression or even traumasymptoms due to the toxic nature
of the relationship.
(22:55):
These emotional challenges canspill over into other areas of
life, impacting personalrelationships, work or academic
performance and overallsatisfaction with life.
Furthermore, unhealthy soulties can impede one's ability to
(23:20):
engage in self-care practiceseffectively.
Individuals may neglect theirown needs, prioritize the needs
of the other person above theirown, or even engage in
self-destructive behaviors tomaintain the connection.
This neglect of self-care canmake emotional distress worse
(23:40):
and hinder the individual'sability to cope with the
challenges posed by theunhealthy relationship.
Overall, recognizing andaddressing the dangers of
unhealthy soul ties is crucialfor safeguarding one's emotional
well-being and promotinghealthier relationships and
(24:03):
lifestyles.
This may involve seekingsupport from trusted friends,
family members or mental healthprofessionals to navigate the
process of disentanglement andprioritize self-care and
personal growth.
And prioritize self-care andpersonal growth and, as I guess
(24:23):
was talking about in a biblicalcontext, soul ties are often
interpreted as deep spiritualconnections formed between
individuals rooted in sharedbeliefs, values and experiences.
While the term quote-unquotesoul tie itself is not
(24:43):
explicitly mentioned in theBible.
Some believers draw parallelsto biblical principles regarding
relationships, particularly inthe context of marriage, family
and spiritual kingship.
Many Christians view soul tiesas reflective of the
(25:04):
interconnectedness of souls,emphasizing the spiritual bond
between individuals that goesbeyond physical or emotional
connections.
This perspective is ofteninfluenced by passages in the
Bible that speak of unity, suchas in Genesis 2, verse 24, which
(25:26):
describes the union betweenhusband and wife as becoming one
flesh, quote unquote.
Additionally, some biblicalscholars and Christian teachings
caution against formingunhealthy soul ties,
particularly those rooted inimmoral or idolatrous behavior.
(25:48):
This perspective draws frombiblical admonitions against
sexual immorality, as in 1Corinthians 6, verses 16 to 18.
And it warns believers againstbecoming unequally yoked with
unbelievers, and that is in 2Corinthians 6, 14.
(26:09):
Overall, the biblical spiritualconnotation of soul ties
underscores the importance ofcultivating healthy, underscores
the importance of cultivatinghealthy, god-honoring
relationships characterized bymutual love, respect and
spiritual alignment.
It encourages believers toprioritize spiritual discernment
(26:33):
and seek guidance from thescripture and prayer in
navigating their relationshipsand connections with others.
Yeah, so you know?
You know.
Thank you so much for talkingabout therapy, and I know you
know in your mothers, becauseabout how old is your mom?
Lillian (26:51):
Mom is 58.
Dr Sogade (26:52):
Yeah, I guess then in her time therapy was not a
thing as much as it is now.
No, so number one do blackpeople go for therapy a lot?
Lillian (27:02):
Yeah.
So you know, when growing up inwhat I grew up in my community,
you know black people did notbelieve in therapy.
Therapy was Jesus and that'sjust black.
And if we have other sistersout there there's other colors
and cultures that's just what inour culture and I'm quite sure
you probably experiencing yourculture as well but in our
(27:24):
ethnic group that was not athing.
We always hush, hush or youdon't want nobody in your
business.
You know Jesus is going to makeit work.
You're not praying hard enough.
You're depressed.
Go wash dishes, go clean yourhouse.
You know this is just thingsthat happen and that systematic
thing that we used to, you know,embarked on well, got depressed
on and pressed down into us andpassed down from generation.
(27:47):
It is not true.
Go to therapy because youngerpeople now in their 20s, 18s, 30
and younger are in therapybecause of mothers in their 58s,
you know, and 60, and what theypassed down onto their children
, because that's what theirmother passed down onto them.
(28:08):
And now you see a bunch ofyounger kids in therapy because
of this traumatized situationhappened or, with their mother,
should have went to therapy for,However, they saw what they saw
, you know.
So therapy is a must.
Please, black people, go totherapy.
Don't dismiss therapy.
Go to therapy.
(28:28):
Go to you know your girlfriendsis okay, but go to someone
that's professional.
They can give you tools, it'sokay.
They're not wanted.
They don't want to know yourbusiness.
They want to help you.
They want to help you.
They want to guide you.
They want to give you the toolsto help you in life.
So, please, please, go.
Don't be scared.
If you have the money, go, andthere's resources out there.
Find the resource.
(28:49):
Go to therapy.
And if you're married you don'twant to go together, go for
yourself.
And if you can go together, gotogether.
But I also recommend go foryourself, because sometimes you
don't want to discuss the thingsin your marriage together, and
sometimes it's.
You need to be worked on, youknow, because we don't want to
blame ourself or takeaccountability, but it starts
(29:10):
with you.
Work on yourself first and thenwork on the marriage.
Well thank you very much.
Thank you, yeah, yeah.
So thank you so much for havingus.
Thank you, yeah, yeah.
So thank you so much for havingus and I will want to bring my
husband back next time so he cantell his side of the story.
So men out there men out thereas well as women hear these
(29:33):
things coming from a man of why,why and the reasons or what do
they think?
And it's so much clearer if youwant to hear it from a man
perspective, of why they do thethings they do, cause I know we
all have those same.
So like why you know, and womenis not.
You don't blame yourself, don'tsay oh, you know, it's me, I
(29:54):
didn't, don't, it's not you.
If you do not want to stay in abroken relationship it could be
a job, a marriage, a friendship,whatever it is go.
I'm not encouraging nobody tostay, but if you got some fight
in you and I'm saying the fightas in, both of you guys are
fighting, not just one person,both of you guys are fighting,
(30:16):
both of you guys are prayingbecause, like I said, it's not
the, it's not that person, it'sthe enemy.
And if you both can cometogether, because God said, when
two become together, he will bein the midst.
Let God be in the midst becauseboth of y'all are fighting.
Now guess what?
God has to step in and thevictory will be won and it is
all well, and it will be wellwith you guys' souls.
(30:39):
So keep fighting and let youboth fight together, and in the
end, the battle was already won.
Dr Sogade (30:45):
Lillian, thank you so very much for coming to
CocoaPods podcast.
You know we're going to find away to have you again.
Thank you for encouraging women.
You know children, families,and you know, thank God, that
your marriage, your relationship, is on this.
I mean, I look at you, you're abeautiful woman, thank you.
You are too, thank you, andthis is just a success story and
(31:08):
I know you guys keep fightingto work at it, so thank you very
much for coming.
Thank you, take care.
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