September 27, 2024 • 30 mins
Can you feel the festival vibes of Rails World? Brace yourself for an electrifying journey through the upcoming release of Rails 8, where authentication features are creating a buzz like never before. Picture yourself amidst a sea of passionate developers, where hallway interactions often outshine the scheduled talks. We'll also share a heartfelt tribute to Justin Searles, whose potentially final talk left a lasting mark on the Rails community. And guess what? The Rails World spirit isn't just confined to Rails enthusiasts; notable PHP community figures also joined, fostering a beautiful cross-framework camaraderie between Rails and Laravel.
Ever felt overwhelmed by deployment options? We’ve got you covered! This episode is packed with insights on the evolving landscape of Rails deployment tools. We share our mixed emotions about Heroku's discontinued free tier and our newfound appreciation for Hatchbox. The conversation steers towards Kamal and its promise of simplifying deployments, albeit with a learning curve. We discuss the dream of an official Rails playground, which could revolutionize how new developers deploy production apps, and the excitement surrounding default PWA support in Rails 8 that signals a bright future for web applications.
Ending on a high note, we dive into diverse deployment strategies by contrasting Laravel Cloud and Kamal, highlighting how Rails accommodates various needs with tools like Hatchbox, AWS, and Kamal. Nadia Odenayu's keynote on migrating from Heroku to Cloud 66 for a more cost-effective B2C app is also not to be missed. We speculate on the game-changing features of Rails 8.1, from action notifier to improved service worker integration, and dream ahead to Rails 9’s possibilities. Lastly, hear about the convenience of navigating the event with a bike rental app and the high anticipation for Eileen's keynote, promising even more exciting revelations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, might have to do this a couple times,
we'll see.
Hey everybody, we are doing acrossover episode at Rails World
, day 2.
This is Jeremy and Jess fromIndie Rails, drew Bragg from
Code and the Coding Coders whocode it, adrian and Yaro from
the Friendly Show.
(00:21):
Hey guys, hey, hey what's upeverybody?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hey, hey, nice to be here.
So I's up everybody.
Hey, hey, nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So I guess let's talk about Railsworld.
How's it going this year?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Well, authentication is coming in Rails 8, so we
should all be very excited thatwe now have a complete framework
.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I think I know one guy who's very happy about that
I heard Jason scream in thebackground.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Oh, he stood up.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
He stood up in the audience right.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Yeah, he's pumped, he's very excited, Great energy.
Otherwise, oh yeah, Everybody'ssuper pumped about it.
There are people that haven'tbeen to the first Rails World in
Amsterdam and you can't capturethis energy through photos or
videos.
You have to come here andeveryone's like oh my god, this
is a freaking festival.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I love rails Talking about photos or videos.
I'm at least trying to do itlike making videos of walking
around the space, posting themso that people that cannot visit
have at least a chance toexperience it a bit.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, when you first started doing that, you had your
phone out like walking around.
I wasn't sure what you weredoing and then I realized, okay,
he's making videos, Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, the energy here is amazing.
I think you hit the nail on thehead when you were like it's
sort of like a festival, like itfeels a lot more like a big
party than it does a conference.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, for sure.
We should get some contextwe're in day two so this is
friday and we just got throughday one, so what are your first
thoughts?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
uh, day one was awesome, it was.
It was a lot.
Just because there's a lot ofpeople here, uh, and I was
trying to, I was trying to, Iwas actually trying to go to
talks.
This time, and every time Iwould try and go to a talk, I'd
make it like five feet and seesomeone else.
I wanted to talk to anotherfive feet someone else I wanted
to talk to Another five feet.
Someone else I wanted to talk to.
I made it to one, I made it toDHH's keynote and Justin
Searle's talk and I missed everyother talk I wanted to go to
(02:11):
because I was just too busytalking to people.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I'm usually pretty strict.
I'm like, okay, I've got to goto the talk, I want to hear the
talk.
I haven't made it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean, the hallway track is still a good track to
be on and you will still be ableto watch all the talks online.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
You should use the opportunity to meet the people.
Yeah, yeah, and I've beencatching up with people that
have attended a talk and they'retelling me what happened and
I'm keeping their brains on it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, I am sad that I missed Justin's talk because he
said I guess this was his lasttalk.
Allegedly Justin's talk,because he said I guess this is
his last talk.
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
That's what he said.
No way, that's what he said.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
He's been doing it a long time.
I always go to his talks.
He puts a lot of time andeffort, so I understand the like
I need to step back from doingthis because there's so much
time and effort that goes intoit.
But I really enjoy his talks.
He puts such care and time intohis talks.
They're always so good.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
He's so creative in the examples and the things that
he uses.
Yeah, and I believe him.
He got a little choked up.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, he did Huh, man .
Yeah, and Drew, you mentionedthat it feels like a festival
and I would like to say that itfeels like a celebration of
where we are in the Railscommunity.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, big celebration .
And that's the cool thing, Ithink, the idea of, like, we're
going to have this conferencequote-unquote around the same
time that we release the newversion of Rails, so that, yeah,
we're celebrating in this case,we're celebrating Rails 8
coming out and that's such acool, a cool vibe and way to
(03:46):
handle this, because you getthat party atmosphere.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
So you know, this is a cool conference when all the
PHP folks come, because we haveTaylor Otwell here, we have
Caleb Porzio, we have AdamWathman, jonathan Ring, like
amazing freaking folks, and theystep by to see what we're doing
.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, it's pretty cool that they like honor us
really by coming here andvisiting, hanging out with us
and seeing what it's all about.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, it's super cool that we can have that like
level of crossover, where it'slike Laravel isn't competing
with Rails.
It exists because of Rails butis now also its own thing.
It's almost like sort of like afork but PHP, so not.
But it's just so cool to seetwo projects like that that have
just similar visions butdifferent approaches to doing it
(04:38):
and then seeing them be able tohang out with one another and
collab and just be really coolpeople to hang out with one
another and collab and like justbe really cool, uh, people to
hang out with I think taylor umhit the nail on the head with
his tweet yesterday where hesaid that, uh, he's at rails
world and you know he said rails8, just ship and that's it.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
like this is both the frameworks, visions, like both
frameworks have the same visionabout shipping fast, having
everything included, aboutmoving fast and bringing value.
And then you know you can scale, you can do whatever else later
, but you can do a Rails new orLaravel new or whatever and just
move incredibly fast.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, very fast the MVC pattern, especially when
you're following it so good.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I want to go back to.
We're talking about celebratingRails 8, but I feel like we're
also still celebrating the Railsorganization and all the
improvements that it's making inthe community.
It's like last year was itskind of first year and this year
it just feels like it's pickingup even more steam, doing more
things like finding its groove.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
And that's been a celebration too.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, the docs work has been.
Like Amanda said yesterdaymorning.
I guess that the docs wereoverdue for a redesign and a
rewrite, so it's nice to seethat finally happening and I
think they're doing a great jobwith it from what I've seen so
far.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, we were talking to Boomy, who was working on
that yesterday.
I was talking to her and thenI'm still trying to meet.
I want to meet John, the guybehind all the design work.
I think he's here, but Ihaven't seen him yet.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Okay, yeah, talking of new releases, what are you
guys most excited about?
I?
Speaker 5 (06:21):
mean authentication Did we not already talk about
this Authentication,authentication is coming to
Rails.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I do like the generator approach to that yeah
big.
I think that is an underusedtool, like generating.
We've always had scaffolding,but even scaffolding feels kind
of stale.
But this kind of generation,this is kind of code that you
want to own.
It's probably not library code,but using generators for that,
(06:50):
I think, makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
So I like that.
I love Devise.
I've used it in a ton ofprojects, but it is one of those
.
The moment you start breakingfrom how Devise does things, it
sort of becomes a bigger pain inthe butt than it's worth.
So the generator approach,where it's like we'll give you
everything and if you need tomodify it, here are the files,
because you end up doing thatwith the device.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Anyway, you end up ejecting all the controllers and
views so you can modify themyourself, but it's a little more
complicated, so yeah, yeah, I'mmost excited about the Hotwire
native.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Well, I'm most excited about Hotwire Native.
Yeah, yeah, I saw that,something that wasn't even
mentioned until now.
Okay, but I think somebody is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, I'm doing a lightning talk about Hotwire.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Native today, oh nice .
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Nice, there's no big stage talk about it.
I think Jay Oms and JoeMazzotti couldn't make it, but
I'm going to be at the kids'table.
Oh nice, doing the small talkabout it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, it would make sense, I guess, if Joe was
here like that, maybe he woulddo that, but I think he's
probably still on parental leaveor something like that.
He said he was taking time offor whatever, so it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
He's a busy man.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah, well-deserved time absolutely I
read the uh the landing page,where I know it was cool to see
them give him that shot out.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy about that.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, it's well deserved but I think the solid
trifecta, too, is really cool.
Just the the approach.
I'm, I'm, I'm very excited toleave here and spin up a rails 8
app and try all those thingsout, because I think it's really
cool.
I know the deployment stuff waslike the focus of the keynote,
but I'm still pretty interestedin all the solid things yeah,
(08:35):
I'm probably more interested inthe solid stuff I I was
surprised a couple weeks ago tosee solid cable I.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It wasn't new to me here, but just a couple weeks
ago like where did this?
Come this come from.
I did not expect that.
It was just a total surprise.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Apparently it was so DHH could get his presentation.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean yeah, you just need that one little
piece, that one little puzzlepiece like put in.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
I think there's one more Redis puzzle piece and
that's Credis.
Yeah, I think it won't takelong until we find an adapter to
it as well.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah Huh, I still like Credis.
I guess I'm not like ready toget rid of it.
Yeah, I'm curious.
Keep watching.
I'm not a new.
I don't know.
I'm not a new tech guy.
I like boring stuff and I'm alate adopter on so many things,
which is weird being in softwareand doing that.
(09:29):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Talking of deployment and late adoption.
Have you guys already triedKamal?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Have not.
I don't miss Capistrano.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I used it for years.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I don't miss running my own VPSs.
I'm still a Heroku guy.
I still love it.
I don't know.
I do agree DHH was saying likeit's expensive, it is Like we
should get more compute for whatwe're paying.
But I don't want to go back toyou know, capistrano.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I'm on Hatchbox and I love it.
Yeah, capistrano.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I'm on Hatchbox and I love it.
Hatchbox is awesome.
It's made for Hatchbox.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
For me, the magical, the wonderful thing about Heroku
was letting new people who justwant to create their first
Rails app create a Herokuaccount and deploy their first
Rails application to productionin a few minutes.
It's like the perfectdemonstration of creating a new
application, creating a tableand pushing it to the world.
But now Heroku doesn't have thefree tiers anymore, so that's a
(10:36):
pity.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, I've had this idea.
I really wish.
Okay, I think DHH was sayingyesterday we need the on-ramp on
the floor for onboarding newpeople into Rails and new
developers brand new developerscoming to Rails.
I still think there's a bunchthat could be done.
It's not on the floor yet.
It's not on the floor.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
It's very close, it's getting there.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
But I wouldn't say Kamal is an easy tool to pick up
for beginners.
I wish there was something likePlayground for people that are
doing a.
Let's say, you want to run aRails hackathon or do a Rails
weekend where people arelearning and want to spin up a
real app in production.
I wish there was a way to dothat really, really simply, that
(11:24):
was sort of official and thatyou could like test out rails
and production and know it waslike sort of official from from
the rails site.
You go there You're like, oh, Iwant to do this and and then
you wouldn't have to drop downto command line tools.
You could actually like spinsomething up, you know, and then
push a repo or whatever andconnect a repo and have it up.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I mean, I think every release we get a little bit, we
lower the floor a little bitright, like every Rails release
that comes out, we're justmaking it a little bit easier
for beginners a little bit andlike, even like the first, kamal
, that's cool, it super helps.
And then, but it's like, oh, ifyou have, if you want to do SSL
, like you're probably runningthrough a proxy or a load
(12:07):
balancer or something kind ofdoing some weird stuff Kamal 2
takes care of that.
So now SSL with let's Encryptout of the box, that's awesome.
So I think, as they iterate onKamal and the next versions of
Rails, I think we'll get closerto what you're talking about,
because I agree with you and Iwould imagine that there's a lot
of people that share thatsentiment.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, I also think this test environment or
playground environment that Iimagine could also work really
well with SQLite the fact thatyou've got all the solid
libraries and then, if you useSQLite only for it, you could
kind of create that place wherepeople could get to production
with toy apps really easily,really cheaply.
(12:51):
I don't know, that's somethingI wish we had.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
I can just imagine DevOps people rolling their eyes
when they hear about yeah,there's a playground where
anybody can just deploy an appand we can just they're like oh,
my God there's security issuesthere's like scaling issues.
There's like oh, yeah, but thatwould be cool for, like a
hackathon thing yeah, just youknow you get access and get push
(13:14):
.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think that's a place that people will come into
the community or could comeinto the community.
Be like oh yeah, there's aweekend thing, we're going to
build Rails apps and launch them, like a lot of times.
It doesn't need to be like youstart with things that are toys
and then toys eventually becomereal tools.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
That was the Heroku free plan.
Right yeah, exactly, exactly.
And that is what is missing now.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It was the thing that was helping onboard Rails, that
was helping onboard new Railspeople into production apps.
And it's not enough to have itrunning locally.
You don't get the magic untilit's in product.
Right, right, yeah, I meanthat's how my boot camp did.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It was we just spun up Heroku accounts.
We learned a little bit aboutHeroku just so we could
troubleshoot our own stuff.
But for the most part it wasjust like here's a free plan and
all you have to do is and itgoes.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
And clan and all you have to do is and it goes and
like that's.
That's sorely missed in thecommunity and I don't fault
heroku heroku for that.
Like it makes sense why theywould do that, but they're elite
.
There's a gap now.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, they left a hole who do we know at heroku?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I do.
I do have a friend there.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
Let's get him on a call.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Uh, one thing I'm I'm actually really excited about,
because I've been excited aboutthis for years and and it
becoming a default in rails 8and I'm a little bummed that it
didn't get mentioned in thekeynote, but there was a talk
about it is pwa support okayyeah like it's not that
complicated.
You could just you can add thefiles to your rails app right
now, but like it out of the box.
I've been a big fan of pwas foryears and just seeing them grow
(14:40):
and become better and it's like, yes, there is definitely a
future where you do not need tohave a native app if you have a
good web app.
I'm pumped for that.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Talking about PWAs, during the Rails World
Conference, there is a PWA withthe schedule of the event and a
separate PWA that is a Chemfireinstance for the event, and I
think it's a great first stepfor all the Rails developers
that have not used PWAs to beguided to try it out.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, I like that they open-sourced the conference
app to SuperLC, all of that.
You know they use the app.
They're like hey, that workedreally well.
And then they can just go lookat the source code and see it's
not that scary or complicated.
There's a lot going on Serviceworkers.
There's definitely not a groundfloor entry to service workers,
(15:32):
but like it's not overlycomplex.
And you get a lot of reallycool stuff with some simple
service workers.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, and Amanda was calling for other conferences to
use it.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, yeah, I like that too.
It's not just open source soyou can learn from it.
But like, hey, if you'rerunning a small conference, like
Rocky Mountain, ruby is atwo-day conference, it's a
single track but still like, hey, you've got an app now, that's
awesome, yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It won't hurt to use it right.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Talking of deployment , it's also interesting how
Laravel and Rails went twocompletely separate paths
Completely different ways.
Laravel Cloud and Kamal.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, the no pass.
Yeah, I did feel a littleawkward in the keynote for
Taylor.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
It's all part of the big tent, like I mean, there's
going to be people that thinkthat the cloud is here to stay.
That's the way to go, that'show we want to do it.
Yeah, and that's fine If youwant to use Kamal, if you want
to use something completely, Istill think Hatchbox is boss.
But you know like there's somany, and I like that we are
(16:43):
deliberately trying to geteverybody into this tent of like
it sort of doesn't matter howyou want to do it.
Here are all of the tools.
And Rails has alwayshistorically made it really easy
to just.
Like you don't want to do itthis way, cool, here's an easy
way to swap it in and out.
Like it's easier if you stickto the Rails way for sure,
especially during upgrade time,but like it's nice that we can
(17:04):
do it whatever flavor that suitsyou best.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Yeah, it's all about requirements.
Sometimes you just want to movefast.
Hatchbox is going to be good.
Sometimes you need scale, thenyou go.
You know full AWS and whatever.
Sometimes you want to hackaround.
Kamal is your friend, you have.
You have one hobby server.
Whatever you need, you haveoptions, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I think the first time I really considered this
seriously was hearing NadiaOdenayu talk about she's
building a B2C consumer app andthey needed to leave Heroku.
The cost was cost prohibitivefor them to stay.
Leave Heroku the cost just likeit was cost prohibitive for
them to stay on Heroku, giventhat it was, like you know, b2c.
(17:51):
Like B2B, it makes sense tostay on Heroku a lot of times.
But small team B2C, the marginsare so small like it made sense
to move to AWS, especially ifyou have a freemium model yeah,
yeah, exactly yeah.
So this is where it starts toactually make sense to me.
That's when I maybe look thatway, and I just haven't worked
(18:12):
on many apps like that, but thathelped me see there is a real
need for people to be able to dothat.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, I was blown away by her keynote at RansConf
when she went through and sheactually showed the numbers and
graphs of like.
Here we were on Heroku and wewere in trouble and we moved to
Cloud 66.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Oh, that's, right, cloud 66.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And then she showed the graph.
Afterwards I was like, holy,yeah, there's a little bit more
work involved.
It's not as seamless as aHeroku deploy, but that was a
big jump in numbers.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I mean there's a difference between her being
able to make a business work andnot.
And then it's like, okay, yeah,it makes perfect sense.
You need to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So Rails 8.1 is supposed to release the action
notifier and I suppose it mightalso make the work with service
workers and with the sendingnotifications easier.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Is 8.1 where we're getting searched too.
Active Record Search.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
That was a total surprise.
Where did this come from?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They've been trying to solve some problems at Hay.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's how that came about.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Their search was really bad in the beginning and
it has gotten better.
And I'm guessing that's theextraction, because the search
has gotten a lot better.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I was in the way way back.
Did anyone see some of the codesamples?
Did it look like it was activerecord models that are doing the
indexing.
You're indexed, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yep, yep, yep, exactly, yeah, it's all, it's
active record all the way down.
Yeah, and you just kind ofdefine your search parameters in
your model, which is super cool, yeah, and yeah, I think that's
going to be awesome.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And how is this different than like a PG search?
Do we think it's probably goingto?
Speaker 5 (19:55):
be in a similar.
It's a similar thing like a PGsearch or a RANSAC or you know
it's going to build your queriesfor you.
I don't think it's.
You know Elasticsearch, it'slike a different.
You know like kind of servicethey built just for search.
It's going to be in thedatabase.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I think.
But it's creating an index,right, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's terribly
different than a PG search.
But if you're on MySQL or ifyou're using SQLite, you don't
have PG search.
So the whole ActiveRecordsupports all of these things on
the back end.
So when you use ActiveRecord,it allows you to have anything
on your back end.
You use PG search, you're usingPostgres, no matter what, not
(20:37):
that?
I think there's many peoplelike oh, we're going to use
Postgres this week.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Next week we'll use my sequel, but like it allows,
for that uh, which I think iscool.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
No, that's nice.
I'm somehow more uh.
I'm looking forward to 8.1.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah, maybe it's because we kind of have eight
right now.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So yeah, we do have eight, yeah, yeah, I think maybe
you know, as you get closer toa release, you kind of hear like
, oh, this is coming out, thisis coming out, this is coming
out.
And as you get closer to arelease, you kind of hear like,
oh, this is coming out, this iscoming out, this is coming out.
And then you get the big showand it's like yay, but then the
8-1 was like no one knewanything, that's the new shiny
show.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
now I'm looking forward to 9.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I'm most excited about the action text for
Markdown.
Oh yeah, I love Markdown.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yes, oh, yeah, yeah, markdown support.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I love Markdown.
I don't know how their Markdowneditor will be, but what I'm
most interested in is the actiontext embeds.
That's the thing I wantextracted from the WYSIWYG so
that I can use it with anything,Because I'm doing an app right
now where I've got a Markdowneditor but I want to be able to
(21:46):
do drag-and-drop file uploadsbut not just have a URL.
I want to be able to do richembeddings, but with Markdown,
and have some kind ofpreprocessing to render those.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
So yeah, with Markdown you can go a little bit
wild because the Markdown specdoesn't really.
I mean, they have the imagekind of parentheses and stuff,
but if you check out what GitHubis doing with their alerts,
that's different from whatVidPress is doing with their
alerts.
It's a different kind of markupinside, so you can go a little
bit wild.
So I think one good point herewould be is this new editor or
(22:23):
the active action text adapter?
Would it support adding theseembeddings?
Would it support these?
I'm hoping.
Because we don't want tricks.
It's a little bit difficult toadd things to tricks, but you
want to add these ones to bottomline.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
That would be nice if we don't just get a new
markdown mode or markdowncapability, but we also get a
better I don't want to call it afull-blown plugin.
Api but just something a littlebit easier to extend.
It's not that hard to extendtricks, but it's complex enough.
It's not hard, but it's complex, so let's lower the complexity
(23:05):
level a little bit, that'd be,nice Compress the complexity.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I like what David said yesterday when he was
saying the problem's notfinished when you've solved the
problem.
It's finished when you've madeit simple, yep, and I think if
we keep shooting for that on allthese problems, then we're just
going to keep getting better.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, for me, the main takeaway, the main spirit
from the keynote of David waschallenge the status quo, don't
be afraid to challenge it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That is not me.
I am like I'm fine.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I'm fine with my status quo, right Well, I guess.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, I think it's interesting Like you need all
types of people.
I don't tend to think of thingsthat way.
A lot of times, like, except,except what is and then find
your own workarounds, is my likedefault mode.
I don't think about like, howdo I change, how do I change the
world to you know, like fit andsuit, like my mentality or
whatever.
But it's interesting to like weneed everything, we need all
(24:04):
types of people.
You need people like that thatmake new things happen.
You need the early adoptersthat iron out all the things and
you need the people that liveon keeping things stable or
whatever.
I don't know if I'm in thatcamp or not, but it sounds
boring.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
For example, I don't want to touch a server.
I'm that pink elephant withwhen it comes to servers even
like authorization,authentication, like I don't
even want to touch that.
I want smarter people to takecare of everything, right, but
I'm glad that we have thatoption, that, yeah, somebody can
go in and, you know, tinkerwith it, yeah, early on in my
career, the place I worked.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I we did a lot of like on the metal server, like
deploying with Capistrano anykind of server issue.
I'd SSH in and like have toknow my Linux commands and it's
not.
It isn't that complicated.
You don't have to be that pinkelephant, but also like that's
not what I want to do.
I don't want to be like asystem admin.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I don't want to have to go back to a server closet.
I spent plenty of time in aserver closet.
I don't need to spend any more.
I don't want to do that.
That's not what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I want to write Ruby code so like as much as I think
Kamal is great and it's going tobe as it gets better, it's
going to be even more helpfulfor people who are like I can
with all the solid stuff andKamal just deploys it for me.
That's awesome.
I'll probably stick tosomething that does the
deployments for me, becausethat's just not what I want to
do.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
You don't want that to be your problem 100%, because
there's always a problem.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
So it's.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
DNS.
If you have a framework that'struly going to be a one-person
framework, then you've got tohave options like that.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Particularly for that B2C.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
You can't do it all yeah, and but if you want to do
it, you can.
Yeah, and maybe it's not thathard, but everybody has
different preferences anddifferent strengths and
weaknesses, so it's nice to havethe plugins and the third-party
resources to fill those gapsyeah, it's not just what you're
using rails for right now, it'sall the things that you could,
(26:03):
so all the types of problemsthat you could solve with it.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I think that's one of the reasons I keep, you know, I
still keep doing Rails, is youknow?
Like I know, I know that I cansolve not just the problems I
have for clients right now, butlike there's like a plethora of
options, like for any otherkinds of things I might hit.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Well, I'm excited for day two.
I'm probably gonna get stuck inthe hallway track a little bit
again, but uh, there'sdefinitely some really cool
talks today that I'm hoping tomake um anybody have anything on
their list.
That's like I can't miss thisone the keynote which we're
missing this morning I was likeI love eileen's talks because's
(26:44):
talks, especially when she getsinto talking about lowering the
barrier of entry to open sourceand we need people contributing
and knowing they can.
She gets so fired up andpassionate I'm like I can't wait
for her keynote.
Whoops, that started 15 minutesago.
My bad.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
By the way, one of the most exciting things for me
on the schedule was the firesidechat between DHH Toby and Mats.
Yeah, how did you?
Most exciting things for me onthe schedule was the fireside
chat between dhh toby and matsyeah how did you like it, guys?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I missed it I'm gonna have to catch it on the
recording as well.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I called bits and pieces, um, but the thing that
really stood out to me is I justand that's another thing about
just coming the rails world thatyou just can never get is that
you have Matt, dhh and Toby upon the stage and you know, you
just don't get a chance to seethe people that you look up to
or that have, like, paved thesepaths that have made all this
(27:40):
possible for us, and that's justreally cool and it's really
cool to see them talk about itand, like, I got a chance to
meet Matt the other night andthat was a highlight.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I can't wait to meet him.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
To me it felt like you've been watching a movie
series for many seasons and thisis like the satisfying
conclusion yes, it's not over,it's not over, it's not over?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, you're right, it's not over the season.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rails 7 season is over.
Rails 8 season is justbeginning.
It was a wonderful seasonfinale.
Yes, there you go, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I am definitely most excited for the Shopify
closing party at Shopify.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Oh yeah, oh, it's at their headquarters.
Yeah yeah, headquarters, yeahNice here in.
Toronto.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
It's going to be awesome.
Looking forward to that as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I hope I don't have to walk anymore.
We went to a party last nightand we sort of walked halfway.
I guess I'm breaking in newshoes and my feet are like oh my
gosh.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Not a good place to break in new shoes.
It's a lot of walking.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's a tip.
That's a conference tip.
Right there, don't break in newshoes.
It's a lot of walking.
Yeah, that's a tip.
That's a conference tip.
Right there, don't break in newshoes, actually bicycle rentals
are really good in Toronto.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I downloaded the app, created the account in two
minutes and took a bicycle toget to the event venue.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Somebody said they saw you on a bike.
I'm trying to remember who itwas.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
So see if the bicycle rental, instead of having an
app, it was like a PWA or Rails.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
it would have been easier, Like lower barrier of
entry, everybody would use abike.
Yeah, I mean, my data roamingis expensive.
I paid for that app.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, yeah All right, cool.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Well, let's go see how much of Eileen's keynote we
can catch, and maybe we'll doanother one of these later today
.
Sweet.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Thanks guys.
All right, might have to do this a couple times,
we'll see.
Hey everybody, we are doing acrossover episode at Rails World
, day 2.
This is Jeremy and Jess fromIndie Rails, drew Bragg from
Code and the Coding Coders whocode it, adrian and Yaro from
the Friendly Show.
(00:21):
Hey guys, hey, hey what's upeverybody?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hey, hey, nice to be here.
So I's up everybody.
Hey, hey, nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So I guess let's talk about Railsworld.
How's it going this year?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Well, authentication is coming in Rails 8, so we
should all be very excited thatwe now have a complete framework
.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I think I know one guy who's very happy about that
I heard Jason scream in thebackground.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Oh, he stood up.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
He stood up in the audience right.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Yeah, he's pumped, he's very excited, Great energy.
Otherwise, oh yeah, Everybody'ssuper pumped about it.
There are people that haven'tbeen to the first Rails World in
Amsterdam and you can't capturethis energy through photos or
videos.
You have to come here andeveryone's like oh my god, this
is a freaking festival.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I love rails Talking about photos or videos.
I'm at least trying to do itlike making videos of walking
around the space, posting themso that people that cannot visit
have at least a chance toexperience it a bit.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, when you first started doing that, you had your
phone out like walking around.
I wasn't sure what you weredoing and then I realized, okay,
he's making videos, Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, the energy here is amazing.
I think you hit the nail on thehead when you were like it's
sort of like a festival, like itfeels a lot more like a big
party than it does a conference.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, for sure.
We should get some contextwe're in day two so this is
friday and we just got throughday one, so what are your first
thoughts?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
uh, day one was awesome, it was.
It was a lot.
Just because there's a lot ofpeople here, uh, and I was
trying to, I was trying to, Iwas actually trying to go to
talks.
This time, and every time Iwould try and go to a talk, I'd
make it like five feet and seesomeone else.
I wanted to talk to anotherfive feet someone else I wanted
to talk to Another five feet.
Someone else I wanted to talk to.
I made it to one, I made it toDHH's keynote and Justin
Searle's talk and I missed everyother talk I wanted to go to
(02:11):
because I was just too busytalking to people.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
I'm usually pretty strict.
I'm like, okay, I've got to goto the talk, I want to hear the
talk.
I haven't made it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean, the hallway track is still a good track to
be on and you will still be ableto watch all the talks online.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
You should use the opportunity to meet the people.
Yeah, yeah, and I've beencatching up with people that
have attended a talk and they'retelling me what happened and
I'm keeping their brains on it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, I am sad that I missed Justin's talk because he
said I guess this was his lasttalk.
Allegedly Justin's talk,because he said I guess this is
his last talk.
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
That's what he said.
No way, that's what he said.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
He's been doing it a long time.
I always go to his talks.
He puts a lot of time andeffort, so I understand the like
I need to step back from doingthis because there's so much
time and effort that goes intoit.
But I really enjoy his talks.
He puts such care and time intohis talks.
They're always so good.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
He's so creative in the examples and the things that
he uses.
Yeah, and I believe him.
He got a little choked up.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, he did Huh, man .
Yeah, and Drew, you mentionedthat it feels like a festival
and I would like to say that itfeels like a celebration of
where we are in the Railscommunity.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah, big celebration .
And that's the cool thing, Ithink, the idea of, like, we're
going to have this conferencequote-unquote around the same
time that we release the newversion of Rails, so that, yeah,
we're celebrating in this case,we're celebrating Rails 8
coming out and that's such acool, a cool vibe and way to
(03:46):
handle this, because you getthat party atmosphere.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
So you know, this is a cool conference when all the
PHP folks come, because we haveTaylor Otwell here, we have
Caleb Porzio, we have AdamWathman, jonathan Ring, like
amazing freaking folks, and theystep by to see what we're doing
.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, it's pretty cool that they like honor us
really by coming here andvisiting, hanging out with us
and seeing what it's all about.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, it's super cool that we can have that like
level of crossover, where it'slike Laravel isn't competing
with Rails.
It exists because of Rails butis now also its own thing.
It's almost like sort of like afork but PHP, so not.
But it's just so cool to seetwo projects like that that have
just similar visions butdifferent approaches to doing it
(04:38):
and then seeing them be able tohang out with one another and
collab and just be really coolpeople to hang out with one
another and collab and like justbe really cool, uh, people to
hang out with I think taylor umhit the nail on the head with
his tweet yesterday where hesaid that, uh, he's at rails
world and you know he said rails8, just ship and that's it.
Speaker 5 (04:59):
like this is both the frameworks, visions, like both
frameworks have the same visionabout shipping fast, having
everything included, aboutmoving fast and bringing value.
And then you know you can scale, you can do whatever else later
, but you can do a Rails new orLaravel new or whatever and just
move incredibly fast.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, very fast the MVC pattern, especially when
you're following it so good.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I want to go back to.
We're talking about celebratingRails 8, but I feel like we're
also still celebrating the Railsorganization and all the
improvements that it's making inthe community.
It's like last year was itskind of first year and this year
it just feels like it's pickingup even more steam, doing more
things like finding its groove.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
And that's been a celebration too.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, the docs work has been.
Like Amanda said yesterdaymorning.
I guess that the docs wereoverdue for a redesign and a
rewrite, so it's nice to seethat finally happening and I
think they're doing a great jobwith it from what I've seen so
far.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, we were talking to Boomy, who was working on
that yesterday.
I was talking to her and thenI'm still trying to meet.
I want to meet John, the guybehind all the design work.
I think he's here, but Ihaven't seen him yet.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Okay, yeah, talking of new releases, what are you
guys most excited about?
I?
Speaker 5 (06:21):
mean authentication Did we not already talk about
this Authentication,authentication is coming to
Rails.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I do like the generator approach to that yeah
big.
I think that is an underusedtool, like generating.
We've always had scaffolding,but even scaffolding feels kind
of stale.
But this kind of generation,this is kind of code that you
want to own.
It's probably not library code,but using generators for that,
(06:50):
I think, makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
So I like that.
I love Devise.
I've used it in a ton ofprojects, but it is one of those
.
The moment you start breakingfrom how Devise does things, it
sort of becomes a bigger pain inthe butt than it's worth.
So the generator approach,where it's like we'll give you
everything and if you need tomodify it, here are the files,
because you end up doing thatwith the device.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Anyway, you end up ejecting all the controllers and
views so you can modify themyourself, but it's a little more
complicated, so yeah, yeah, I'mmost excited about the Hotwire
native.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Well, I'm most excited about Hotwire Native.
Yeah, yeah, I saw that,something that wasn't even
mentioned until now.
Okay, but I think somebody is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, I'm doing a lightning talk about Hotwire.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Native today, oh nice .
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Nice, there's no big stage talk about it.
I think Jay Oms and JoeMazzotti couldn't make it, but
I'm going to be at the kids'table.
Oh nice, doing the small talkabout it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, it would make sense, I guess, if Joe was
here like that, maybe he woulddo that, but I think he's
probably still on parental leaveor something like that.
He said he was taking time offor whatever, so it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
He's a busy man.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah, well-deserved time absolutely I
read the uh the landing page,where I know it was cool to see
them give him that shot out.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy about that.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, it's well deserved but I think the solid
trifecta, too, is really cool.
Just the the approach.
I'm, I'm, I'm very excited toleave here and spin up a rails 8
app and try all those thingsout, because I think it's really
cool.
I know the deployment stuff waslike the focus of the keynote,
but I'm still pretty interestedin all the solid things yeah,
(08:35):
I'm probably more interested inthe solid stuff I I was
surprised a couple weeks ago tosee solid cable I.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It wasn't new to me here, but just a couple weeks
ago like where did this?
Come this come from.
I did not expect that.
It was just a total surprise.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Apparently it was so DHH could get his presentation.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean yeah, you just need that one little
piece, that one little puzzlepiece like put in.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
I think there's one more Redis puzzle piece and
that's Credis.
Yeah, I think it won't takelong until we find an adapter to
it as well.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah Huh, I still like Credis.
I guess I'm not like ready toget rid of it.
Yeah, I'm curious.
Keep watching.
I'm not a new.
I don't know.
I'm not a new tech guy.
I like boring stuff and I'm alate adopter on so many things,
which is weird being in softwareand doing that.
(09:29):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Talking of deployment and late adoption.
Have you guys already triedKamal?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Have not.
I don't miss Capistrano.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I used it for years.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I don't miss running my own VPSs.
I'm still a Heroku guy.
I still love it.
I don't know.
I do agree DHH was saying likeit's expensive, it is Like we
should get more compute for whatwe're paying.
But I don't want to go back toyou know, capistrano.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I'm on Hatchbox and I love it.
Yeah, capistrano.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I'm on Hatchbox and I love it.
Hatchbox is awesome.
It's made for Hatchbox.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
For me, the magical, the wonderful thing about Heroku
was letting new people who justwant to create their first
Rails app create a Herokuaccount and deploy their first
Rails application to productionin a few minutes.
It's like the perfectdemonstration of creating a new
application, creating a tableand pushing it to the world.
But now Heroku doesn't have thefree tiers anymore, so that's a
(10:36):
pity.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, I've had this idea.
I really wish.
Okay, I think DHH was sayingyesterday we need the on-ramp on
the floor for onboarding newpeople into Rails and new
developers brand new developerscoming to Rails.
I still think there's a bunchthat could be done.
It's not on the floor yet.
It's not on the floor.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
It's very close, it's getting there.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
But I wouldn't say Kamal is an easy tool to pick up
for beginners.
I wish there was something likePlayground for people that are
doing a.
Let's say, you want to run aRails hackathon or do a Rails
weekend where people arelearning and want to spin up a
real app in production.
I wish there was a way to dothat really, really simply, that
(11:24):
was sort of official and thatyou could like test out rails
and production and know it waslike sort of official from from
the rails site.
You go there You're like, oh, Iwant to do this and and then
you wouldn't have to drop downto command line tools.
You could actually like spinsomething up, you know, and then
push a repo or whatever andconnect a repo and have it up.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I mean, I think every release we get a little bit, we
lower the floor a little bitright, like every Rails release
that comes out, we're justmaking it a little bit easier
for beginners a little bit andlike, even like the first, kamal
, that's cool, it super helps.
And then, but it's like, oh, ifyou have, if you want to do SSL
, like you're probably runningthrough a proxy or a load
(12:07):
balancer or something kind ofdoing some weird stuff Kamal 2
takes care of that.
So now SSL with let's Encryptout of the box, that's awesome.
So I think, as they iterate onKamal and the next versions of
Rails, I think we'll get closerto what you're talking about,
because I agree with you and Iwould imagine that there's a lot
of people that share thatsentiment.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, I also think this test environment or
playground environment that Iimagine could also work really
well with SQLite the fact thatyou've got all the solid
libraries and then, if you useSQLite only for it, you could
kind of create that place wherepeople could get to production
with toy apps really easily,really cheaply.
(12:51):
I don't know, that's somethingI wish we had.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
I can just imagine DevOps people rolling their eyes
when they hear about yeah,there's a playground where
anybody can just deploy an appand we can just they're like oh,
my God there's security issuesthere's like scaling issues.
There's like oh, yeah, but thatwould be cool for, like a
hackathon thing yeah, just youknow you get access and get push
(13:14):
.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think that's a place that people will come into
the community or could comeinto the community.
Be like oh yeah, there's aweekend thing, we're going to
build Rails apps and launch them, like a lot of times.
It doesn't need to be like youstart with things that are toys
and then toys eventually becomereal tools.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
That was the Heroku free plan.
Right yeah, exactly, exactly.
And that is what is missing now.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It was the thing that was helping onboard Rails, that
was helping onboard new Railspeople into production apps.
And it's not enough to have itrunning locally.
You don't get the magic untilit's in product.
Right, right, yeah, I meanthat's how my boot camp did.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It was we just spun up Heroku accounts.
We learned a little bit aboutHeroku just so we could
troubleshoot our own stuff.
But for the most part it wasjust like here's a free plan and
all you have to do is and itgoes.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
And clan and all you have to do is and it goes and
like that's.
That's sorely missed in thecommunity and I don't fault
heroku heroku for that.
Like it makes sense why theywould do that, but they're elite
.
There's a gap now.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, they left a hole who do we know at heroku?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I do.
I do have a friend there.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
Let's get him on a call.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Uh, one thing I'm I'm actually really excited about,
because I've been excited aboutthis for years and and it
becoming a default in rails 8and I'm a little bummed that it
didn't get mentioned in thekeynote, but there was a talk
about it is pwa support okayyeah like it's not that
complicated.
You could just you can add thefiles to your rails app right
now, but like it out of the box.
I've been a big fan of pwas foryears and just seeing them grow
(14:40):
and become better and it's like, yes, there is definitely a
future where you do not need tohave a native app if you have a
good web app.
I'm pumped for that.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Talking about PWAs, during the Rails World
Conference, there is a PWA withthe schedule of the event and a
separate PWA that is a Chemfireinstance for the event, and I
think it's a great first stepfor all the Rails developers
that have not used PWAs to beguided to try it out.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, I like that they open-sourced the conference
app to SuperLC, all of that.
You know they use the app.
They're like hey, that workedreally well.
And then they can just go lookat the source code and see it's
not that scary or complicated.
There's a lot going on Serviceworkers.
There's definitely not a groundfloor entry to service workers,
(15:32):
but like it's not overlycomplex.
And you get a lot of reallycool stuff with some simple
service workers.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, and Amanda was calling for other conferences to
use it.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, yeah, I like that too.
It's not just open source soyou can learn from it.
But like, hey, if you'rerunning a small conference, like
Rocky Mountain, ruby is atwo-day conference, it's a
single track but still like, hey, you've got an app now, that's
awesome, yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
It won't hurt to use it right.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Talking of deployment , it's also interesting how
Laravel and Rails went twocompletely separate paths
Completely different ways.
Laravel Cloud and Kamal.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, the no pass.
Yeah, I did feel a littleawkward in the keynote for
Taylor.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
It's all part of the big tent, like I mean, there's
going to be people that thinkthat the cloud is here to stay.
That's the way to go, that'show we want to do it.
Yeah, and that's fine If youwant to use Kamal, if you want
to use something completely, Istill think Hatchbox is boss.
But you know like there's somany, and I like that we are
(16:43):
deliberately trying to geteverybody into this tent of like
it sort of doesn't matter howyou want to do it.
Here are all of the tools.
And Rails has alwayshistorically made it really easy
to just.
Like you don't want to do itthis way, cool, here's an easy
way to swap it in and out.
Like it's easier if you stickto the Rails way for sure,
especially during upgrade time,but like it's nice that we can
(17:04):
do it whatever flavor that suitsyou best.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Yeah, it's all about requirements.
Sometimes you just want to movefast.
Hatchbox is going to be good.
Sometimes you need scale, thenyou go.
You know full AWS and whatever.
Sometimes you want to hackaround.
Kamal is your friend, you have.
You have one hobby server.
Whatever you need, you haveoptions, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I think the first time I really considered this
seriously was hearing NadiaOdenayu talk about she's
building a B2C consumer app andthey needed to leave Heroku.
The cost was cost prohibitivefor them to stay.
Leave Heroku the cost just likeit was cost prohibitive for
them to stay on Heroku, giventhat it was, like you know, b2c.
(17:51):
Like B2B, it makes sense tostay on Heroku a lot of times.
But small team B2C, the marginsare so small like it made sense
to move to AWS, especially ifyou have a freemium model yeah,
yeah, exactly yeah.
So this is where it starts toactually make sense to me.
That's when I maybe look thatway, and I just haven't worked
(18:12):
on many apps like that, but thathelped me see there is a real
need for people to be able to dothat.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, I was blown away by her keynote at RansConf
when she went through and sheactually showed the numbers and
graphs of like.
Here we were on Heroku and wewere in trouble and we moved to
Cloud 66.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Oh, that's, right, cloud 66.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And then she showed the graph.
Afterwards I was like, holy,yeah, there's a little bit more
work involved.
It's not as seamless as aHeroku deploy, but that was a
big jump in numbers.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I mean there's a difference between her being
able to make a business work andnot.
And then it's like, okay, yeah,it makes perfect sense.
You need to do that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So Rails 8.1 is supposed to release the action
notifier and I suppose it mightalso make the work with service
workers and with the sendingnotifications easier.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Is 8.1 where we're getting searched too.
Active Record Search.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
That was a total surprise.
Where did this come from?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They've been trying to solve some problems at Hay.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That's how that came about.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Their search was really bad in the beginning and
it has gotten better.
And I'm guessing that's theextraction, because the search
has gotten a lot better.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I was in the way way back.
Did anyone see some of the codesamples?
Did it look like it was activerecord models that are doing the
indexing.
You're indexed, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yep, yep, yep, exactly, yeah, it's all, it's
active record all the way down.
Yeah, and you just kind ofdefine your search parameters in
your model, which is super cool, yeah, and yeah, I think that's
going to be awesome.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And how is this different than like a PG search?
Do we think it's probably goingto?
Speaker 5 (19:55):
be in a similar.
It's a similar thing like a PGsearch or a RANSAC or you know
it's going to build your queriesfor you.
I don't think it's.
You know Elasticsearch, it'slike a different.
You know like kind of servicethey built just for search.
It's going to be in thedatabase.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I think.
But it's creating an index,right, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's terribly
different than a PG search.
But if you're on MySQL or ifyou're using SQLite, you don't
have PG search.
So the whole ActiveRecordsupports all of these things on
the back end.
So when you use ActiveRecord,it allows you to have anything
on your back end.
You use PG search, you're usingPostgres, no matter what, not
(20:37):
that?
I think there's many peoplelike oh, we're going to use
Postgres this week.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Next week we'll use my sequel, but like it allows,
for that uh, which I think iscool.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
No, that's nice.
I'm somehow more uh.
I'm looking forward to 8.1.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Yeah, maybe it's because we kind of have eight
right now.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So yeah, we do have eight, yeah, yeah, I think maybe
you know, as you get closer toa release, you kind of hear like
, oh, this is coming out, thisis coming out, this is coming
out.
And as you get closer to arelease, you kind of hear like,
oh, this is coming out, this iscoming out, this is coming out.
And then you get the big showand it's like yay, but then the
8-1 was like no one knewanything, that's the new shiny
show.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
now I'm looking forward to 9.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I'm most excited about the action text for
Markdown.
Oh yeah, I love Markdown.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
Yes, oh, yeah, yeah, markdown support.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I love Markdown.
I don't know how their Markdowneditor will be, but what I'm
most interested in is the actiontext embeds.
That's the thing I wantextracted from the WYSIWYG so
that I can use it with anything,Because I'm doing an app right
now where I've got a Markdowneditor but I want to be able to
(21:46):
do drag-and-drop file uploadsbut not just have a URL.
I want to be able to do richembeddings, but with Markdown,
and have some kind ofpreprocessing to render those.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
So yeah, with Markdown you can go a little bit
wild because the Markdown specdoesn't really.
I mean, they have the imagekind of parentheses and stuff,
but if you check out what GitHubis doing with their alerts,
that's different from whatVidPress is doing with their
alerts.
It's a different kind of markupinside, so you can go a little
bit wild.
So I think one good point herewould be is this new editor or
(22:23):
the active action text adapter?
Would it support adding theseembeddings?
Would it support these?
I'm hoping.
Because we don't want tricks.
It's a little bit difficult toadd things to tricks, but you
want to add these ones to bottomline.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
That would be nice if we don't just get a new
markdown mode or markdowncapability, but we also get a
better I don't want to call it afull-blown plugin.
Api but just something a littlebit easier to extend.
It's not that hard to extendtricks, but it's complex enough.
It's not hard, but it's complex, so let's lower the complexity
(23:05):
level a little bit, that'd be,nice Compress the complexity.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I like what David said yesterday when he was
saying the problem's notfinished when you've solved the
problem.
It's finished when you've madeit simple, yep, and I think if
we keep shooting for that on allthese problems, then we're just
going to keep getting better.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, for me, the main takeaway, the main spirit
from the keynote of David waschallenge the status quo, don't
be afraid to challenge it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That is not me.
I am like I'm fine.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I'm fine with my status quo, right Well, I guess.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, I think it's interesting Like you need all
types of people.
I don't tend to think of thingsthat way.
A lot of times, like, except,except what is and then find
your own workarounds, is my likedefault mode.
I don't think about like, howdo I change, how do I change the
world to you know, like fit andsuit, like my mentality or
whatever.
But it's interesting to like weneed everything, we need all
(24:04):
types of people.
You need people like that thatmake new things happen.
You need the early adoptersthat iron out all the things and
you need the people that liveon keeping things stable or
whatever.
I don't know if I'm in thatcamp or not, but it sounds
boring.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
For example, I don't want to touch a server.
I'm that pink elephant withwhen it comes to servers even
like authorization,authentication, like I don't
even want to touch that.
I want smarter people to takecare of everything, right, but
I'm glad that we have thatoption, that, yeah, somebody can
go in and, you know, tinkerwith it, yeah, early on in my
career, the place I worked.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I we did a lot of like on the metal server, like
deploying with Capistrano anykind of server issue.
I'd SSH in and like have toknow my Linux commands and it's
not.
It isn't that complicated.
You don't have to be that pinkelephant, but also like that's
not what I want to do.
I don't want to be like asystem admin.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I don't want to have to go back to a server closet.
I spent plenty of time in aserver closet.
I don't need to spend any more.
I don't want to do that.
That's not what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I want to write Ruby code so like as much as I think
Kamal is great and it's going tobe as it gets better, it's
going to be even more helpfulfor people who are like I can
with all the solid stuff andKamal just deploys it for me.
That's awesome.
I'll probably stick tosomething that does the
deployments for me, becausethat's just not what I want to
do.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
You don't want that to be your problem 100%, because
there's always a problem.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
So it's.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
DNS.
If you have a framework that'struly going to be a one-person
framework, then you've got tohave options like that.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Particularly for that B2C.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
You can't do it all yeah, and but if you want to do
it, you can.
Yeah, and maybe it's not thathard, but everybody has
different preferences anddifferent strengths and
weaknesses, so it's nice to havethe plugins and the third-party
resources to fill those gapsyeah, it's not just what you're
using rails for right now, it'sall the things that you could,
(26:03):
so all the types of problemsthat you could solve with it.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I think that's one of the reasons I keep, you know, I
still keep doing Rails, is youknow?
Like I know, I know that I cansolve not just the problems I
have for clients right now, butlike there's like a plethora of
options, like for any otherkinds of things I might hit.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Well, I'm excited for day two.
I'm probably gonna get stuck inthe hallway track a little bit
again, but uh, there'sdefinitely some really cool
talks today that I'm hoping tomake um anybody have anything on
their list.
That's like I can't miss thisone the keynote which we're
missing this morning I was likeI love eileen's talks because's
(26:44):
talks, especially when she getsinto talking about lowering the
barrier of entry to open sourceand we need people contributing
and knowing they can.
She gets so fired up andpassionate I'm like I can't wait
for her keynote.
Whoops, that started 15 minutesago.
My bad.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
By the way, one of the most exciting things for me
on the schedule was the firesidechat between DHH Toby and Mats.
Yeah, how did you?
Most exciting things for me onthe schedule was the fireside
chat between dhh toby and matsyeah how did you like it, guys?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I missed it I'm gonna have to catch it on the
recording as well.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I called bits and pieces, um, but the thing that
really stood out to me is I justand that's another thing about
just coming the rails world thatyou just can never get is that
you have Matt, dhh and Toby upon the stage and you know, you
just don't get a chance to seethe people that you look up to
or that have, like, paved thesepaths that have made all this
(27:40):
possible for us, and that's justreally cool and it's really
cool to see them talk about itand, like, I got a chance to
meet Matt the other night andthat was a highlight.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I can't wait to meet him.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
To me it felt like you've been watching a movie
series for many seasons and thisis like the satisfying
conclusion yes, it's not over,it's not over, it's not over?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, you're right, it's not over the season.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rails 7 season is over.
Rails 8 season is justbeginning.
It was a wonderful seasonfinale.
Yes, there you go, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I am definitely most excited for the Shopify
closing party at Shopify.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Oh yeah, oh, it's at their headquarters.
Yeah yeah, headquarters, yeahNice here in.
Toronto.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
It's going to be awesome.
Looking forward to that as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I hope I don't have to walk anymore.
We went to a party last nightand we sort of walked halfway.
I guess I'm breaking in newshoes and my feet are like oh my
gosh.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Not a good place to break in new shoes.
It's a lot of walking.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's a tip.
That's a conference tip.
Right there, don't break in newshoes.
It's a lot of walking.
Yeah, that's a tip.
That's a conference tip.
Right there, don't break in newshoes, actually bicycle rentals
are really good in Toronto.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I downloaded the app, created the account in two
minutes and took a bicycle toget to the event venue.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Somebody said they saw you on a bike.
I'm trying to remember who itwas.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
So see if the bicycle rental, instead of having an
app, it was like a PWA or Rails.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
it would have been easier, Like lower barrier of
entry, everybody would use abike.
Yeah, I mean, my data roamingis expensive.
I paid for that app.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, yeah All right, cool.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Well, let's go see how much of Eileen's keynote we
can catch, and maybe we'll doanother one of these later today
.
Sweet.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Thanks guys.
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