September 24, 2025 • 20 mins
This week we’re taking a deeply technical dive into our newest feature: Heroku AppLink! Jon Dodson is joined by Chris Wall, Salesforce Architect and creator of AppLink, to explore what AppLink offers developers and how it brings Heroku and Salesforce closer together.
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Episode Transcript
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Narrator (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Code[ish],
an exploration of thelives of modern developers.
Join us as we dive into topicslike languages and frameworks,
data and event-driven architectures,
artificial intelligence, andindividual and team productivity.
Tailored to developersand engineering leaders,
this episode is part of ourdeeply technical series.
Jon (00:27):
Hello everyone!
My name is Jon Dodson andI'm an engineer working for Heroku.
I’m a big Heroku super fan
and excited to talk to you about whatawesome stuff is happening at Heroku.
And today friends, today is a fun daybecause we're here to celebrate
one of our newestreleases, Heroku AppLink.
And to talk about Heroku AppLink,
I'm joined by the creatorof AppLink itself, Chris Wall.
(00:49):
Hello, Chris.
Chris (00:51):
Hey Jon, thanks for having me on.
Jon (00:53):
Yeah, thank you.
So all right, Chris, we're justgoing to jump straight into it.
So, if you could tell everyone a bitabout yourself and what you do for Heroku.
Chris (01:02):
Yeah. So I'm an architect at Salesforce focused on
bringing Heroku closer to Salesforce.
About me, I was born inLA and raised outside D.C..
Got married in San Francisco.
I raised kids in Austin, Texas, and I'mcurrently living in Denver, Colorado.
So, one could say I've been around.
Jon (01:23):
Yeah, you're all over the place.
That's awesome.
So, one of the thingsyou've accomplished in
your career is you've workedfor Salesforce for 18 years,
which is a reallyimpressive accomplishment.
Congratulations on that.
That's a lot of time.
And I'm sure you have an opinionon the last 20 years of tech
and sort of how that impactsa large company like Salesforce.
So, any lessons that you learned with thatthat you want to share with everyone?
Chris (01:45):
Well, first, it certainly doesn't seem like 18 years.
Jon (01:49):
[Laughing] Right.
Chris (01:51):
I think it's partly because Salesforce has always been on the forefront of change.
It's certainly a big company,but Salesforce prides
itself in a startupculture to a large extent.
During my time at Salesforce,I've probably heard
“This product or this pivot is revolutionary”
probably every other year.
And honestly, Salesforce has beengenerally right about those changes.
(02:15):
So I rememberChatter, Web 2.0, and mobile,
and most recently data and data cloudand of course Agentforce and agents.
It's been really exciting, it's a neverboring journey here at Salesforce.
You know, I'm reallyfortunate to be part of it.
The one thing that has keptSalesforce going that I've adopted
is to embrace change.
Make change,be part of the change, actually.
(02:36):
The same is true in theworld we live in today.
Change is constant and seemseven more so these days.
Jon (02:42):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Especially with AI,there's a lot of changes happening.
So, some folks in techfeel that technology and software
is limitless insomuch as whatwe can dream, we can create.
And I sort of really enjoythe creative aspects of my job
in programming, and really, like,seeing a feature being built from nothing.
For you, was there any a time inyour career where you worked on
(03:03):
something new, where it was excitingto see that creativity come together?
Chris (03:08):
Yeah. First of all, that was well said.
I really like how you frame that.
And for me, there's been many thingsalong the way, both grand and small.
And a small but super mind-blowingthing, at least at the time,
was when I was theVisualforce team lead years ago.
Jon (03:24):
Oh, cool.
Chris (03:25):
Web pages were mostly static at the time, or at least the content was.
Then we introduced Ajax. Remember Ajax?
Or what we called remoting toVisualforce and just saw pages come alive.
I mean, that was super exciting.
Seems somewhat silly now.Jon: Yeah.
But it was a game changer at the time.
And of course, now I feellike I'm dating myself. [Laughs]
Jon (03:47):
[Laughing] Yeah. No, I remember that.
It was exciting.
I didn't quite understand Ajax at first.
I'm like, no, no one cares.
And then I saw how amazing it was.
And when I got access to Gmail,I think that was the first app that I saw.
And I was so excited when Igot on the beta, I was like, yes!
Chris (04:05):
Yeah, totally.
But it was really justa simple technology.
It was just the next evolution of the web.
Jon (04:11):
Yeah. Chris
I remember opening upFirebug back in the day.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Chris (04:18):
And doing some fun things, and of course, in Google Developer.
And then I've most recentlyopened it up to check it out.
And oh my gosh, what you can doin one of those tools is just amazing.
Jon (04:29):
Yeah, they've evolved pretty far.
That's really funnythat you mentioned Firebug.
I haven’t thought aboutthat forever. I love Firebug.
I was probably a Firebug hold outway longer than I should have been, right?
Because Firebug initially, if memoryserves, it was a browser extension.
Chris (04:42):
Yeah.
Jon (04:43):
And then all of the browsers got basically their own Firebug.
And so it took me a while
before I used the native what wasin all the browsers or whatever.
But I’ve loved Firebug for so long.
It's like, for me, I like buildingkind of a relationship with tools,
so sometimes it’sa little hard for me to let go.
Chris (04:58):
Oh, totally, totally agree with that.
Jon (05:00):
Yeah. So I'm curious for you, like what’s some piece of advice you’d
give to aspiring developers who are juststarting their journey in development?
Chris (05:07):
That's a good one.
Well, this might be obvious,
but learn AI and embrace AI.
Jon (05:15):
Yeah, it's a good one.
Chris (05:16):
There's definitely a lot of developer anxiety around AI.
Jon (05:20):
Yes.
Chris (05:20):
I could see how AI parallels the internet age,
the late 90s, early 2000s.
I think there's a tremendousopportunity with AI.
It'll touch, what, nearlyevery aspect of our lives?
And developers are the oneswho will deliver that AI change.
So it's not just learn and embrace AI.
But figure out how you as a developercan help shape the future with AI.
(05:44):
I mean, I really believethat developers are without
a doubt essential to the AI revolution.
Jon (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely I agree.
So, what's one thing aboutworking for Heroku and Salesforce
that you think would be interestingfor people to know, they might not know?
Chris (05:59):
Culture. Very strong culture.
Heroku is rapidly advancingnext-generation runtime,
uplifting data stores,integrating with Salesforce.
But there's a tight communitywithin Heroku while also being super
laser-focused on quality,user experience, and customer success.
But I think what bonds usall is the Heroku culture.
Jon (06:22):
I completely agree.
For me, it's the strongest I’ve
felt for a company that I've worked for,and I really appreciate it a lot.
I’ve worked on like, three teamsthis year and they're all great.
I mean, everyone is fantastic.
It's really inspiring for meto work with people
that are so good at what they do,and they're really good people too. [Laughs]
Chris (06:40):
Yeah, they are.
Jon (06:41):
I don't know. I mean, we all got to work.
We all got to deal with the job thing,
and it's nice to do itwith people that are great.
So I agree with you on that.
Chris (06:48):
Yeah. Early in my career,
a coworker of mine asked me,why are we putting in these 80-hour weeks?
Why are we doing this?
And his response to his ownquestion was, it’s the people.
I really enjoy working with the people.
And I think that's true at Heroku.
Jon (07:04):
So, let's focus a bit on AppLink, because it's the really cool
release right now andyou've worked a lot on that.
So, AppLink is a totally newproduct at Heroku we just launched.
So I'm wondering if you can tell uswhat is AppLink and why does it exist?
Chris (07:19):
Yeah, we're super excited about AppLink. I mean, simply,
it brings Heroku closer to Salesforce.
It empowers Salesforce customerswith Heroku’s capabilities.
I mean, it's long overdue that Heroku isput in the hands of Salesforce customers.
And then Heroku is an incredibly powerful,robust platform that today,
Salesforce customers, for the most part,have not taken advantage.
(07:39):
We want Heroku to be a natural,
obvious, and unified extensionto the Salesforce platform.
And it's not just AppLink,what we’re working on.
Heroku is now an agentic platform.
Heroku Eventingis our event-based platform,
and all of which are tightlyintegrated with Salesforce.
The way I like to think about it
is that AppLink is theporcelain atop the plumbing.
Jon (08:02):
Yeah.
Chris (08:02):
It handles the security, wiring of apps into orgs, and it enables
customers, AppLink customers,to focus on their business use cases.
Don't worry about all this other stuff
that effectively gets in the way of youdeveloping solutions for your customers.
Jon (08:19):
Yeah, I agree, and one of the things that I think
is really exciting about AppLinkis now you can say stuff
like Python is a language you could usein Salesforce, which I think is great.
Chris (08:29):
Yeah.
Jon (08:30):
Which is not a thing we could do before and now you totally can, or,
not even just Pythonbut just anything on Heroku.
Chris (08:35):
Anything on Heroku.
Jon (08:37):
Yeah, which is awesome. I think that's cool.
So, let's go back to the beginningof AppLink, maybe even before
it was an idea in your head,and it probably started off with some
things you saw customers having problemswith, or maybe problems that you saw.
So, when did you have that ah-ha moment
for the creation of AppLinkand you knew that this had to be a thing?
Chris (08:55):
Yeah, really good question.
AppLink was born fromSalesforce Functions.
Salesforce Functions is a product
that we end-of-lifed this year,but not because it was a failure.
Quite the opposite really.
Customers loved it.
It solved challenging use cases.
But our challenge was that Herokujust simply couldn't support it.
But we knew we had somethingwith Salesforce Functions.
(09:16):
So AppLink is a re-imaginationof Salesforce Functions,
giving Heroku customersthe power of Heroku...
Salesforce customersthe power of Heroku, excuse me.
Instead of building a wholenew experience like we did with
Salesforce Functions, which wasat times somewhat cumbersome,
we, with AppLink, took the bestof Heroku, the best of Salesforce.
(09:37):
So we're meeting personas where they are.
So the Salesforce Admin managesAppLink with known Salesforce
constructs, permissionsets, connected apps, etc.,
and developers build atop Herokuwith its renowned developer
experience choosing platformcapabilities that meet their apps needs.
So, it really is extendingthe Salesforce platform.
(09:57):
It also brings Salesforce to Herokucustomers, which we’re also excited about.
Jon (10:01):
Yeah, totally. That is exciting.
So, what kind of Heroku apps doyou envision benefiting most from AppLink?
Are there any specificlanguages or frameworks
that feel particularly at home with it?
Chris (10:12):
Well, with AppLink solvable business cases are unbound. [Chuckles]
Of course, I'm going to say that.
We have a prominent customerthat is solving 6 to 7 challenges
with AppLink and Eventing,which is super cool.
Jon (10:26):
Okay.
Chris (10:26):
They're offloading high-intensive compute to a Heroku app.
They're migrating to an event-based architecture
to act on high-volume platform eventsand change app data capture events,
all wired up and securewith AppLink and Eventing.
And of course, AppLinkand Eventing open up,
as you said, Heroku’s Polyglot Platformto Salesforce customers.
They could choose a languagethat suits their team’s skill sets
(10:49):
and their business needs,they can use open-source libraries, etc.
So it really is,
as you said, opening up the Salesforceplatform to whole new capabilities.
Jon (10:58):
Yeah, it seems like it. So one thing...
I just kind of was thinking aboutit as you were talking right now,
is one of the things that I sortof dealt with when I was doing
Salesforce development,and I may do a bit at Heroku, but mostly
on our platform,and one of the things that I saw
when I was doing Salesforcedevelopment, is running into like,
you'd write a function, you’dwrite a method or some Apex code.
(11:18):
Maybe my first passwasn't always perfect or whatever,
and then I would go throughand I'd hit some governor limits.
I think one of the things about AppLink too
is that you can sort of get around that
by writing code that just to make sureeverything's scaled up in Heroku properly.
But is that one of the usecases you were thinking
about for AppLink as well too,which is like offloading that too?
Chris (11:37):
Yeah, for sure.
There's limits on every platform.
I mean, Salesforce is amulti-tenant architecture.
Yeah, and sometimes customers,
large customers, have reallyintense compute needs.
And Heroku and HerokuAppLink compliments Apex
and all the things thatSalesforce platform offers.
So the two of them togetheris a real great combo.
Jon (11:58):
Yeah, totally.
So, one of the storiesabout AppLink is Eventing.
And how does Heroku Eventing workwith AppLink and what does it open up
for real-time applications?This is something
I was reading through our documentsand didn't quite understand this one.
Yeah, Eventing is in pilot now.
I encourage everyone to go check it out.
It solves some real-time use cases,but its main focus is event-based,
(12:19):
where Heroku apps act on eventsas they're consumed or events can
be stored in one of Heroku manageddata stores for eventual processing.
Just like AppLink, the realneat thing about Eventing
is that it handles thecomplexities of wiring up
these event-based architectures,which can be very complicated.
Eventing ensures a reliabilityacross an array of event types,
(12:40):
including platform events
and changed data capture andagent events and whatever comes next.
So with AppLink being the point-to-pointintegration tool or feature product,
and Eventing being the indirectsort of integration to events product,
Heroku and Salesforcehave a real one-two punch
that solves a wide varietyof integration use cases.
(13:01):
Cool.
So I just want to warn everyonethat this question contains light,
and I mean very lightspoilers for Superman...
the 2025 Superman film.
So if you don't want to be spoiled,just skip ahead a few minutes.
And when I mean light,
I mean just the most light,there's nothing plot related in here.
Okay, this is really important everyone.
So pay attention please.
I recently watched the new 2025Superman movie directed by James Gunn.
(13:26):
In Superman 2025, we see theSuperman robots get destroyed
when the Fortress of Solitude is invaded.Spoiler. You were warned.
So earlier in the film, Supermanrobots claim they have no consciousness,
however, after they're destroyed,they rebuild themselves for reasons
which I don't quite get as theyclearly were all destroyed earlier,
and why would they want tolive if they weren't conscious?
(13:47):
But fine. Okay. That's fine.
That's not a plot hole.I just didn't quite understand it.
But as you've noticed, this isn'treally a question, I'm just a nerd,
and I have questions about thiskind of nerdery and movies sometimes.
But I guess if this was a question, like,I guess it would be if we look at AI,
robots, and stuff, like, I've got thisrobot at my house that vacuums my floor,
I think it's incredible, I love it,I have to do so much less vacuuming.
(14:10):
So, Chris as you're like looking at robotsand all the things that they can do in
AI and the future, what aspect of all thisdo you want in your life right now?
Any super cool AI robottech that you're excited for?
Chris (14:22):
Yeah, I mean, first, that's an interesting plotline.
We recently watched The Terminator,
and I find it incrediblethat how AI and robots...
it's just a self-fulfilling prophecyto be part of our world,
and it’s both excitingand kind of nervous, right?
Jon (14:38):
[Laughs] Yeah. Chris
What I'm really excited for is any
AI capability that enables self-resolving.
Okay.
Chris (14:47):
So AI determines
that there's a bug in the systemand it just goes and fixes it, right?
So that goes for Herokuapps or Salesforce apps.
But also my car.
My irrigation system.Jon: Yes.
My Wi-Fi, my TV, all the things that break
and my family turns to mewith their eyes and says, go fix it.
Jon (15:07):
[Laughing] Yeah.
Chris (15:08):
And so I just want some AI capability embedded in all these systems
that just determines if there's an issue and
is no longer an issue because they fix it.
I think that's possible, right?
Jon (15:19):
I think so, I mean, it would require the AI bots to have
some problem-solving skills and understandthe underlying technology and stuff.
But yeah, I think so.
I'm not building it,so it seems possible to me.
Chris (15:30):
Oh, one day we might, man. [Laughs]
Jon (15:32):
Yeah, totally.
One of the things that I was reallythinking about that I really hope we have,
and it doesn't even have to be right now,it can definitely be in the future.
I'm moving through ageand I'm thinking about end of life,
and I've got parentsthat are older and stuff like that
and there's two things well, moving there,I'm like halfway to the end, you know?
So I'm thinking about two things.
One of them is,
which I think that we're not toofar away is like self-driving cars.
Chris (15:54):
Yeah.
Jon (15:55):
Someday I'm going to be so old
that it'll probably be dangerousfor me to drive a car.
Sorry, kids. That happens.
You know, you get old,you really shouldn't be driving.
Some of us.
So I'm really excited about that
just so you can keep goingto the store and stuff like that.
The other thing I'm thinking of is like,how do you stay in your house
when you're older? You know what I mean?
So hopefully we can get AI robotsthat can help with that.
So I kind of think about,
(16:16):
and I like that too,
because if you had an AI bot inyour house that could help fix stuff,
but I'm just thinkingabout what if I'm too old
and I need someone to make mea sandwich, you know? [Laughs]
Chris (16:24):
Yes, yes.
And I think the social aspectsas well is just people live longer
from what I understandif they are more social.
Jon (16:32):
Yeah.
Chris (16:33):
And sometimes, as you mentioned, it might be hard to leave the house
or there’s social anxiety out there,
but there could be a botthat could be that social outlet.
Jon (16:41):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I mean, if you've got a human...
sort of an autonomous robot in yourhouse that sort of looks human-ish,
I guess, doesn't have to, I suppose,but it probably would.
Yeah, it could also talk to you.
Yeah, that'd be interesting.
Chris (16:54):
Wild times ahead for sure.
Jon (16:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting.
So I just hope I can afford it,so I’m saving.
I'm saving for a thingthat hasn't even been invented yet.
We'll see what happens.
So security is really important in thesoftware industry now more than ever
because all of everythinghappens online now.
How does AppLink think aboutsecurity as a first-class concern?
Chris (17:14):
Yeah, great question. Yeah.
Managed security.
Managed security is a huge valueadd for AppLink customers.
And customers really appreciateSalesforce's and Heroku’s focus on trust.
They can rely on Salesforce to providea secure boundary around their apps,
around their data, and then with AppLink,we've extended that boundary to Heroku.
(17:35):
So orgs and apps are securely connected.
Org requests are authenticated by AppLink.
Only connected orgs caninvoke AppLink-managed apps.
And so, essentially AppLinkis zero trust out of the box.
So we're really excited about that.Jon: Yeah, good.
And also in our roadmap is including Salesforce Private Connect
(17:55):
to AppLink apps.
So Private Connect will furthersecure org-to-app requests
so the requests travel overthe private internet not public internet.
So that's...we're looking forward to that.
Jon (18:05):
Oh nice okay. That's great.
So as a developer yourselfwhat's a small detail or feature
in AppLink that you'reparticularly proud of,
even if it's somethingmost users might not ever notice?
Chris (18:16):
Yeah, it's just a good question.
AppLink, there's many thingsthat make up it as a cohesive product.
One of the things that I lovethat really stands out to me is the SDKs.
So, developer experience, as you certainlyknow, Jon, is very important at Heroku.
Jon (18:33):
Right. Yeah.
Chris (18:34):
With AppLink’s SDKs, developers can begin writing code,
solving their business use caseson the first line of their app.
And that makes me smile
because they don't have toworry about, again, the plumbing.
We take care of that.
So SDKs are powerfuland they complete the product.
And I think developerswill really appreciate it.
Jon (18:53):
Yeah, I agree, they will.
All right. Final questionChris. Here we go.
So as you're looking ahead at AppLink,what's one feature or maybe possible
change for AppLink
that you're personally excited about,even if it's just a thought in your head
right now, maybe it's not even maybeon the release roadmap or something yet?
Chris (19:12):
Yeah, Salesforce packaging of Heroku apps.
Jon (19:16):
Oh okay. Chris
and apps-as-agents availableon AppExchange and AgentExchange.
Okay.
Chris (19:24):
And then installed Heroku apps are
automagically wired upand secured by AppLink, and installed
apps are wired up and secured byHeroku Eventing to consume org events.
And so this is onereally key way for our partners
to grow their businessby packaging Heroku apps.
That's what I'm really lookingforward to in the coming year.
Jon (19:47):
Wow okay.
That would be really interesting. Cool.
All right, Chris, thank you somuch for talking to me today.
Chris (19:53):
It's been great, Jon. Jon
Thanks, bye.
Narrator (19:57):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Code[ish] podcast.
Code[ish] is produced by Heroku.
The easiest way to deploy, manage,and scale your applications in the cloud.
If you’d like to learn more aboutCode[ish] or any of Heroku’s podcasts,
please visit heroku.com/podcasts.
Hello and welcome to Code[ish],
an exploration of thelives of modern developers.
Join us as we dive into topicslike languages and frameworks,
data and event-driven architectures,
artificial intelligence, andindividual and team productivity.
Tailored to developersand engineering leaders,
this episode is part of ourdeeply technical series.
Jon (00:27):
Hello everyone!
My name is Jon Dodson andI'm an engineer working for Heroku.
I’m a big Heroku super fan
and excited to talk to you about whatawesome stuff is happening at Heroku.
And today friends, today is a fun daybecause we're here to celebrate
one of our newestreleases, Heroku AppLink.
And to talk about Heroku AppLink,
I'm joined by the creatorof AppLink itself, Chris Wall.
(00:49):
Hello, Chris.
Chris (00:51):
Hey Jon, thanks for having me on.
Jon (00:53):
Yeah, thank you.
So all right, Chris, we're justgoing to jump straight into it.
So, if you could tell everyone a bitabout yourself and what you do for Heroku.
Chris (01:02):
Yeah. So I'm an architect at Salesforce focused on
bringing Heroku closer to Salesforce.
About me, I was born inLA and raised outside D.C..
Got married in San Francisco.
I raised kids in Austin, Texas, and I'mcurrently living in Denver, Colorado.
So, one could say I've been around.
Jon (01:23):
Yeah, you're all over the place.
That's awesome.
So, one of the thingsyou've accomplished in
your career is you've workedfor Salesforce for 18 years,
which is a reallyimpressive accomplishment.
Congratulations on that.
That's a lot of time.
And I'm sure you have an opinionon the last 20 years of tech
and sort of how that impactsa large company like Salesforce.
So, any lessons that you learned with thatthat you want to share with everyone?
Chris (01:45):
Well, first, it certainly doesn't seem like 18 years.
Jon (01:49):
[Laughing] Right.
Chris (01:51):
I think it's partly because Salesforce has always been on the forefront of change.
It's certainly a big company,but Salesforce prides
itself in a startupculture to a large extent.
During my time at Salesforce,I've probably heard
“This product or this pivot is revolutionary”
probably every other year.
And honestly, Salesforce has beengenerally right about those changes.
(02:15):
So I rememberChatter, Web 2.0, and mobile,
and most recently data and data cloudand of course Agentforce and agents.
It's been really exciting, it's a neverboring journey here at Salesforce.
You know, I'm reallyfortunate to be part of it.
The one thing that has keptSalesforce going that I've adopted
is to embrace change.
Make change,be part of the change, actually.
(02:36):
The same is true in theworld we live in today.
Change is constant and seemseven more so these days.
Jon (02:42):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Especially with AI,there's a lot of changes happening.
So, some folks in techfeel that technology and software
is limitless insomuch as whatwe can dream, we can create.
And I sort of really enjoythe creative aspects of my job
in programming, and really, like,seeing a feature being built from nothing.
For you, was there any a time inyour career where you worked on
(03:03):
something new, where it was excitingto see that creativity come together?
Chris (03:08):
Yeah. First of all, that was well said.
I really like how you frame that.
And for me, there's been many thingsalong the way, both grand and small.
And a small but super mind-blowingthing, at least at the time,
was when I was theVisualforce team lead years ago.
Jon (03:24):
Oh, cool.
Chris (03:25):
Web pages were mostly static at the time, or at least the content was.
Then we introduced Ajax. Remember Ajax?
Or what we called remoting toVisualforce and just saw pages come alive.
I mean, that was super exciting.
Seems somewhat silly now.Jon: Yeah.
But it was a game changer at the time.
And of course, now I feellike I'm dating myself. [Laughs]
Jon (03:47):
[Laughing] Yeah. No, I remember that.
It was exciting.
I didn't quite understand Ajax at first.
I'm like, no, no one cares.
And then I saw how amazing it was.
And when I got access to Gmail,I think that was the first app that I saw.
And I was so excited when Igot on the beta, I was like, yes!
Chris (04:05):
Yeah, totally.
But it was really justa simple technology.
It was just the next evolution of the web.
Jon (04:11):
Yeah. Chris
I remember opening upFirebug back in the day.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Chris (04:18):
And doing some fun things, and of course, in Google Developer.
And then I've most recentlyopened it up to check it out.
And oh my gosh, what you can doin one of those tools is just amazing.
Jon (04:29):
Yeah, they've evolved pretty far.
That's really funnythat you mentioned Firebug.
I haven’t thought aboutthat forever. I love Firebug.
I was probably a Firebug hold outway longer than I should have been, right?
Because Firebug initially, if memoryserves, it was a browser extension.
Chris (04:42):
Yeah.
Jon (04:43):
And then all of the browsers got basically their own Firebug.
And so it took me a while
before I used the native what wasin all the browsers or whatever.
But I’ve loved Firebug for so long.
It's like, for me, I like buildingkind of a relationship with tools,
so sometimes it’sa little hard for me to let go.
Chris (04:58):
Oh, totally, totally agree with that.
Jon (05:00):
Yeah. So I'm curious for you, like what’s some piece of advice you’d
give to aspiring developers who are juststarting their journey in development?
Chris (05:07):
That's a good one.
Well, this might be obvious,
but learn AI and embrace AI.
Jon (05:15):
Yeah, it's a good one.
Chris (05:16):
There's definitely a lot of developer anxiety around AI.
Jon (05:20):
Yes.
Chris (05:20):
I could see how AI parallels the internet age,
the late 90s, early 2000s.
I think there's a tremendousopportunity with AI.
It'll touch, what, nearlyevery aspect of our lives?
And developers are the oneswho will deliver that AI change.
So it's not just learn and embrace AI.
But figure out how you as a developercan help shape the future with AI.
(05:44):
I mean, I really believethat developers are without
a doubt essential to the AI revolution.
Jon (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely I agree.
So, what's one thing aboutworking for Heroku and Salesforce
that you think would be interestingfor people to know, they might not know?
Chris (05:59):
Culture. Very strong culture.
Heroku is rapidly advancingnext-generation runtime,
uplifting data stores,integrating with Salesforce.
But there's a tight communitywithin Heroku while also being super
laser-focused on quality,user experience, and customer success.
But I think what bonds usall is the Heroku culture.
Jon (06:22):
I completely agree.
For me, it's the strongest I’ve
felt for a company that I've worked for,and I really appreciate it a lot.
I’ve worked on like, three teamsthis year and they're all great.
I mean, everyone is fantastic.
It's really inspiring for meto work with people
that are so good at what they do,and they're really good people too. [Laughs]
Chris (06:40):
Yeah, they are.
Jon (06:41):
I don't know. I mean, we all got to work.
We all got to deal with the job thing,
and it's nice to do itwith people that are great.
So I agree with you on that.
Chris (06:48):
Yeah. Early in my career,
a coworker of mine asked me,why are we putting in these 80-hour weeks?
Why are we doing this?
And his response to his ownquestion was, it’s the people.
I really enjoy working with the people.
And I think that's true at Heroku.
Jon (07:04):
So, let's focus a bit on AppLink, because it's the really cool
release right now andyou've worked a lot on that.
So, AppLink is a totally newproduct at Heroku we just launched.
So I'm wondering if you can tell uswhat is AppLink and why does it exist?
Chris (07:19):
Yeah, we're super excited about AppLink. I mean, simply,
it brings Heroku closer to Salesforce.
It empowers Salesforce customerswith Heroku’s capabilities.
I mean, it's long overdue that Heroku isput in the hands of Salesforce customers.
And then Heroku is an incredibly powerful,robust platform that today,
Salesforce customers, for the most part,have not taken advantage.
(07:39):
We want Heroku to be a natural,
obvious, and unified extensionto the Salesforce platform.
And it's not just AppLink,what we’re working on.
Heroku is now an agentic platform.
Heroku Eventingis our event-based platform,
and all of which are tightlyintegrated with Salesforce.
The way I like to think about it
is that AppLink is theporcelain atop the plumbing.
Jon (08:02):
Yeah.
Chris (08:02):
It handles the security, wiring of apps into orgs, and it enables
customers, AppLink customers,to focus on their business use cases.
Don't worry about all this other stuff
that effectively gets in the way of youdeveloping solutions for your customers.
Jon (08:19):
Yeah, I agree, and one of the things that I think
is really exciting about AppLinkis now you can say stuff
like Python is a language you could usein Salesforce, which I think is great.
Chris (08:29):
Yeah.
Jon (08:30):
Which is not a thing we could do before and now you totally can, or,
not even just Pythonbut just anything on Heroku.
Chris (08:35):
Anything on Heroku.
Jon (08:37):
Yeah, which is awesome. I think that's cool.
So, let's go back to the beginningof AppLink, maybe even before
it was an idea in your head,and it probably started off with some
things you saw customers having problemswith, or maybe problems that you saw.
So, when did you have that ah-ha moment
for the creation of AppLinkand you knew that this had to be a thing?
Chris (08:55):
Yeah, really good question.
AppLink was born fromSalesforce Functions.
Salesforce Functions is a product
that we end-of-lifed this year,but not because it was a failure.
Quite the opposite really.
Customers loved it.
It solved challenging use cases.
But our challenge was that Herokujust simply couldn't support it.
But we knew we had somethingwith Salesforce Functions.
(09:16):
So AppLink is a re-imaginationof Salesforce Functions,
giving Heroku customersthe power of Heroku...
Salesforce customersthe power of Heroku, excuse me.
Instead of building a wholenew experience like we did with
Salesforce Functions, which wasat times somewhat cumbersome,
we, with AppLink, took the bestof Heroku, the best of Salesforce.
(09:37):
So we're meeting personas where they are.
So the Salesforce Admin managesAppLink with known Salesforce
constructs, permissionsets, connected apps, etc.,
and developers build atop Herokuwith its renowned developer
experience choosing platformcapabilities that meet their apps needs.
So, it really is extendingthe Salesforce platform.
(09:57):
It also brings Salesforce to Herokucustomers, which we’re also excited about.
Jon (10:01):
Yeah, totally. That is exciting.
So, what kind of Heroku apps doyou envision benefiting most from AppLink?
Are there any specificlanguages or frameworks
that feel particularly at home with it?
Chris (10:12):
Well, with AppLink solvable business cases are unbound. [Chuckles]
Of course, I'm going to say that.
We have a prominent customerthat is solving 6 to 7 challenges
with AppLink and Eventing,which is super cool.
Jon (10:26):
Okay.
Chris (10:26):
They're offloading high-intensive compute to a Heroku app.
They're migrating to an event-based architecture
to act on high-volume platform eventsand change app data capture events,
all wired up and securewith AppLink and Eventing.
And of course, AppLinkand Eventing open up,
as you said, Heroku’s Polyglot Platformto Salesforce customers.
They could choose a languagethat suits their team’s skill sets
(10:49):
and their business needs,they can use open-source libraries, etc.
So it really is,
as you said, opening up the Salesforceplatform to whole new capabilities.
Jon (10:58):
Yeah, it seems like it. So one thing...
I just kind of was thinking aboutit as you were talking right now,
is one of the things that I sortof dealt with when I was doing
Salesforce development,and I may do a bit at Heroku, but mostly
on our platform,and one of the things that I saw
when I was doing Salesforcedevelopment, is running into like,
you'd write a function, you’dwrite a method or some Apex code.
(11:18):
Maybe my first passwasn't always perfect or whatever,
and then I would go throughand I'd hit some governor limits.
I think one of the things about AppLink too
is that you can sort of get around that
by writing code that just to make sureeverything's scaled up in Heroku properly.
But is that one of the usecases you were thinking
about for AppLink as well too,which is like offloading that too?
Chris (11:37):
Yeah, for sure.
There's limits on every platform.
I mean, Salesforce is amulti-tenant architecture.
Yeah, and sometimes customers,
large customers, have reallyintense compute needs.
And Heroku and HerokuAppLink compliments Apex
and all the things thatSalesforce platform offers.
So the two of them togetheris a real great combo.
Jon (11:58):
Yeah, totally.
So, one of the storiesabout AppLink is Eventing.
And how does Heroku Eventing workwith AppLink and what does it open up
for real-time applications?This is something
I was reading through our documentsand didn't quite understand this one.
Yeah, Eventing is in pilot now.
I encourage everyone to go check it out.
It solves some real-time use cases,but its main focus is event-based,
(12:19):
where Heroku apps act on eventsas they're consumed or events can
be stored in one of Heroku manageddata stores for eventual processing.
Just like AppLink, the realneat thing about Eventing
is that it handles thecomplexities of wiring up
these event-based architectures,which can be very complicated.
Eventing ensures a reliabilityacross an array of event types,
(12:40):
including platform events
and changed data capture andagent events and whatever comes next.
So with AppLink being the point-to-pointintegration tool or feature product,
and Eventing being the indirectsort of integration to events product,
Heroku and Salesforcehave a real one-two punch
that solves a wide varietyof integration use cases.
(13:01):
Cool.
So I just want to warn everyonethat this question contains light,
and I mean very lightspoilers for Superman...
the 2025 Superman film.
So if you don't want to be spoiled,just skip ahead a few minutes.
And when I mean light,
I mean just the most light,there's nothing plot related in here.
Okay, this is really important everyone.
So pay attention please.
I recently watched the new 2025Superman movie directed by James Gunn.
(13:26):
In Superman 2025, we see theSuperman robots get destroyed
when the Fortress of Solitude is invaded.Spoiler. You were warned.
So earlier in the film, Supermanrobots claim they have no consciousness,
however, after they're destroyed,they rebuild themselves for reasons
which I don't quite get as theyclearly were all destroyed earlier,
and why would they want tolive if they weren't conscious?
(13:47):
But fine. Okay. That's fine.
That's not a plot hole.I just didn't quite understand it.
But as you've noticed, this isn'treally a question, I'm just a nerd,
and I have questions about thiskind of nerdery and movies sometimes.
But I guess if this was a question, like,I guess it would be if we look at AI,
robots, and stuff, like, I've got thisrobot at my house that vacuums my floor,
I think it's incredible, I love it,I have to do so much less vacuuming.
(14:10):
So, Chris as you're like looking at robotsand all the things that they can do in
AI and the future, what aspect of all thisdo you want in your life right now?
Any super cool AI robottech that you're excited for?
Chris (14:22):
Yeah, I mean, first, that's an interesting plotline.
We recently watched The Terminator,
and I find it incrediblethat how AI and robots...
it's just a self-fulfilling prophecyto be part of our world,
and it’s both excitingand kind of nervous, right?
Jon (14:38):
[Laughs] Yeah. Chris
What I'm really excited for is any
AI capability that enables self-resolving.
Okay.
Chris (14:47):
So AI determines
that there's a bug in the systemand it just goes and fixes it, right?
So that goes for Herokuapps or Salesforce apps.
But also my car.
My irrigation system.Jon: Yes.
My Wi-Fi, my TV, all the things that break
and my family turns to mewith their eyes and says, go fix it.
Jon (15:07):
[Laughing] Yeah.
Chris (15:08):
And so I just want some AI capability embedded in all these systems
that just determines if there's an issue and
is no longer an issue because they fix it.
I think that's possible, right?
Jon (15:19):
I think so, I mean, it would require the AI bots to have
some problem-solving skills and understandthe underlying technology and stuff.
But yeah, I think so.
I'm not building it,so it seems possible to me.
Chris (15:30):
Oh, one day we might, man. [Laughs]
Jon (15:32):
Yeah, totally.
One of the things that I was reallythinking about that I really hope we have,
and it doesn't even have to be right now,it can definitely be in the future.
I'm moving through ageand I'm thinking about end of life,
and I've got parentsthat are older and stuff like that
and there's two things well, moving there,I'm like halfway to the end, you know?
So I'm thinking about two things.
One of them is,
which I think that we're not toofar away is like self-driving cars.
Chris (15:54):
Yeah.
Jon (15:55):
Someday I'm going to be so old
that it'll probably be dangerousfor me to drive a car.
Sorry, kids. That happens.
You know, you get old,you really shouldn't be driving.
Some of us.
So I'm really excited about that
just so you can keep goingto the store and stuff like that.
The other thing I'm thinking of is like,how do you stay in your house
when you're older? You know what I mean?
So hopefully we can get AI robotsthat can help with that.
So I kind of think about,
(16:16):
and I like that too,
because if you had an AI bot inyour house that could help fix stuff,
but I'm just thinkingabout what if I'm too old
and I need someone to make mea sandwich, you know? [Laughs]
Chris (16:24):
Yes, yes.
And I think the social aspectsas well is just people live longer
from what I understandif they are more social.
Jon (16:32):
Yeah.
Chris (16:33):
And sometimes, as you mentioned, it might be hard to leave the house
or there’s social anxiety out there,
but there could be a botthat could be that social outlet.
Jon (16:41):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I mean, if you've got a human...
sort of an autonomous robot in yourhouse that sort of looks human-ish,
I guess, doesn't have to, I suppose,but it probably would.
Yeah, it could also talk to you.
Yeah, that'd be interesting.
Chris (16:54):
Wild times ahead for sure.
Jon (16:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting.
So I just hope I can afford it,so I’m saving.
I'm saving for a thingthat hasn't even been invented yet.
We'll see what happens.
So security is really important in thesoftware industry now more than ever
because all of everythinghappens online now.
How does AppLink think aboutsecurity as a first-class concern?
Chris (17:14):
Yeah, great question. Yeah.
Managed security.
Managed security is a huge valueadd for AppLink customers.
And customers really appreciateSalesforce's and Heroku’s focus on trust.
They can rely on Salesforce to providea secure boundary around their apps,
around their data, and then with AppLink,we've extended that boundary to Heroku.
(17:35):
So orgs and apps are securely connected.
Org requests are authenticated by AppLink.
Only connected orgs caninvoke AppLink-managed apps.
And so, essentially AppLinkis zero trust out of the box.
So we're really excited about that.Jon: Yeah, good.
And also in our roadmap is including Salesforce Private Connect
(17:55):
to AppLink apps.
So Private Connect will furthersecure org-to-app requests
so the requests travel overthe private internet not public internet.
So that's...we're looking forward to that.
Jon (18:05):
Oh nice okay. That's great.
So as a developer yourselfwhat's a small detail or feature
in AppLink that you'reparticularly proud of,
even if it's somethingmost users might not ever notice?
Chris (18:16):
Yeah, it's just a good question.
AppLink, there's many thingsthat make up it as a cohesive product.
One of the things that I lovethat really stands out to me is the SDKs.
So, developer experience, as you certainlyknow, Jon, is very important at Heroku.
Jon (18:33):
Right. Yeah.
Chris (18:34):
With AppLink’s SDKs, developers can begin writing code,
solving their business use caseson the first line of their app.
And that makes me smile
because they don't have toworry about, again, the plumbing.
We take care of that.
So SDKs are powerfuland they complete the product.
And I think developerswill really appreciate it.
Jon (18:53):
Yeah, I agree, they will.
All right. Final questionChris. Here we go.
So as you're looking ahead at AppLink,what's one feature or maybe possible
change for AppLink
that you're personally excited about,even if it's just a thought in your head
right now, maybe it's not even maybeon the release roadmap or something yet?
Chris (19:12):
Yeah, Salesforce packaging of Heroku apps.
Jon (19:16):
Oh okay. Chris
and apps-as-agents availableon AppExchange and AgentExchange.
Okay.
Chris (19:24):
And then installed Heroku apps are
automagically wired upand secured by AppLink, and installed
apps are wired up and secured byHeroku Eventing to consume org events.
And so this is onereally key way for our partners
to grow their businessby packaging Heroku apps.
That's what I'm really lookingforward to in the coming year.
Jon (19:47):
Wow okay.
That would be really interesting. Cool.
All right, Chris, thank you somuch for talking to me today.
Chris (19:53):
It's been great, Jon. Jon
Thanks, bye.
Narrator (19:57):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Code[ish] podcast.
Code[ish] is produced by Heroku.
The easiest way to deploy, manage,and scale your applications in the cloud.
If you’d like to learn more aboutCode[ish] or any of Heroku’s podcasts,
please visit heroku.com/podcasts.
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