This episode was first published on Feb. 1st, 2024.
Have you ever wondered if your life would have more significance if you were in ministry?
In this episode, Ellen and guest Jordan Raynor challenge our idea that only explicitly spiritual activities matter to God.
They discuss:
• The biblical definition of "work" and why your job matters to the kingdom
• Why Christians are necessary to secular workplaces
• How we misunderstand the Great Commission
• Four ways your work matters eternally
Get a copy of "The Sacredness of Secular Work: Four Ways Your Job Matters for Eternity (Even When You're Not Sharing the Gospel)" to discover how your daily work contributes to God's eternal purposes!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.
Our goal is to help you delightin God's Word and thrive in
Christian living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus, hey Jordan.
(00:29):
What a joy it is to reconnectwith you today.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I always love hanging out with you and your daughters
.
Ellen, how have you been?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh my, goodness, there's so much been going on
since we last met, but I'd likefor you to catch me up on what's
going on in your life.
So Jordan and I were in amastermind group together.
That's how we met.
He's an incredible author andI'm just excited to tell our
audience what's been maybe themost challenging thing and the
(00:59):
most exciting thing that'shappened since we talked last.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh man, it's probably been a year since we connected.
The most challenging thing hasgot to be finding the courage to
say, yeah, I'm going to publishthis book that we're publishing
right now.
Because as you know, you'veseen an advanced copy of it.
I'm saying some things thataren't said a lot of times in
evangelical circles around thetopic of faith and work, and
saying some hard things, and Iwas just really blessed Actually
(01:24):
, right before Dr Keller died,tim Keller, we had a great
conversation and talking aboutthe contents of this book and
just my work in general and himjust like blessing that and
encouraging me to just, you know, lean into the message of this
book.
And so when I think about thebiggest challenge and the
biggest blessing, I think kindof that goes hand in hand.
The biggest challenge is likefinding the courage to beg yeah,
I know we're going to say thesethings and the blessing is
(01:45):
having people like Tim andelders come around the book and
beg, yes, like this is what thechurch needs to hear right now.
And then, just more on apersonal level, I got three
young kids right, so a very fulllife.
I have three daughters who arenine, seven and four and yeah,
so like there's just likeconstant challenges and
blessings wrapped up in being afather to three girls.
(02:06):
I mean you get it, you're amama bear, you're a mama.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You get it.
Oh yeah, yeah, I have three aswell, and boy.
I just know those are busy,busy years.
A lot going on as they getinvolved in all their different
things, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
And maybe you can counsel me.
We have a therapy session.
What's challenging is to pushback on the cultural assumption
of busyness and hurry.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, and just refusing to be in sports six
days a week.
Right, yeah Just like not in thecourts and listen.
That's fine for some people I'mnot.
I'm not judging other peoplewho are doing that, but, like
for me and my family, I think Iwould go crazy living that kind
of lifestyle.
So I feel like, by God's grace,we're living at a really sane
pace and, by his grace, this isjust like a really fun, sweet
(02:48):
season.
Yeah, because when they'resuper young it's not fun.
I don't care what anybody says.
Everyone's like oh, you'regoing to miss the baby years.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I don't think you are .
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I don't think you are .
When they get older, it getsmore fun.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, no, I just putting boundaries on your time
is so valuable, especially likenow that I've come to the point
in my life where my kids arehalf moved out that you know you
can't get those years back,right, yeah, so I love that you
said that you're keeping tabs onthat.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, jordan, I'm so excited actually to talk to you
about this topic today, and Ithink back now about I wish I
would have read your book whileI was a stay-at-home mom or
while I was working in corporateAmerica, because as I was going
through it, I just found it sotremendously encouraging, so
insightful.
You really turned my head a fewtimes as I thought about things
(03:41):
.
So let's jump right in.
So our goal here today, right,is to help our listeners see how
their secular work matters foreternity, and I found it so
interesting that, right from theget-go, you first turned around
my understanding of the wordwork.
So I think it's important forour audience because we have
(04:04):
such a diverse age group herestudents and moms and all kinds
of people.
So help us understand what isthis definition of work?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
the biblical way.
Yeah, it's good.
Listen, the Bible doesn't comewith a glossary, unfortunately,
so I think we've got to look toScripture for clues as to how
God might define these terms.
And I think if God were, ifJesus were sitting here on this
podcast and forced to definework, I think he would define it
a lot more broadly than the waythat we typically do.
We typically define work as thething somebody does for income,
(04:36):
but God's definition of work isso broad that in Exodus 20, as
he's handing down the 10commandments, he says that even
animals work right.
Is he's handing down the 10commandments?
He says that even animals workright?
The fourth commandment toSabbath is a command for humans
to rest and animals to rest fromtheir labor.
So I think the most biblicalway to define work is simply to
expend energy in an effort toachieve a desired result or
(04:59):
stated negatively right.
It's the opposite of leisureand rest.
And that definition obviouslyincludes what you do for pay as
a marketer or a librarian or ateacher, an entrepreneur,
whatever.
But it also includes the workwe do at home, doing laundry and
mowing the grass or studyingfor an exam.
All of that is work, and Ithink the story we see in
(05:20):
scripture is that all of itmatters for eternity, and that's
really the crux of this newbook that we're launching out.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And it's just, it adds so much value to your life
when you think of it this way.
So the second clarificationthen that also really broadened
my understanding was how allChristians can instantly view
their secular workplace assacred.
Tell us what you mean by that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, these terms matter right.
I'm glad we're defining terms.
This is how every one of theseinterviews should start.
Ellen, you're doing it right.
That word secular literallymeans without God, with no
regard to religion, without God.
But we Christians believe wejust prayed this before we
started recording that God iswith us literally wherever we go
through the power of his HolySpirit, and so the only thing
(06:09):
you, listener, need to do toinstantly make your quote
unquote secular workplace sacredis walk through the front door
or log on to Zoom.
That's it.
Now.
I'll say that with a big caveat.
Clearly there's some workthat's off limits for Christ
followers, right.
But I'm going to go ahead andassume that our listeners are
not making a living explicitlyexploiting the poor or peddling
pornography or something elsethat overtly contradicts God's
(06:31):
word.
And if that's true and you areseeking first the kingdom of God
, then, in the words of thegreat preacher Charles Spurgeon,
nothing is secular, everythingis sacred, because everywhere
you walk is sacred ground.
So for me, there's no questionof the sacredness of the
seemingly quote unquote secularwork our listeners do.
I think the more interestingquestion, I think the more life
(06:53):
changing question is okay howdoes that sacred work matter
beyond the present?
Because we understand that inthe present it's a means of
loving my neighbors, myself.
It's a means of glorifying God,but how does it matter for
eternity?
And that's the question I'mhelping readers unpack in the
sacredness of secular work.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Absolutely Well in the book that you say that the
Great Commission, as we know, isgreat and you're not denying
that, but you're saying it's notthe only commission.
So tell us about the GreatCommission and the danger in
treating it as the onlycommission that.
So tell us about the GreatCommission and the danger in
treating it as the onlycommission that Jesus gave us.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed out that I'm not
saying the Great Commissionisn't great.
I think the Great Commission isvery great.
But it is a very new idea inchurch history, roughly 200
years old, that the GreatCommission is the only
commission that Jesus' followersare called to, this call to
make disciples.
And it's really problematic fora lot of reasons.
I'll just give you threereasons why it's so problematic
(07:48):
to treat it as the onlycommission, number one, jesus
never did.
In Matthew 28, 19 through 20,he said go make disciples of all
nations, teaching them to obeyeverything I have commanded you
to do right.
And the gospels record Jesusgiving us about 50 unique
commands.
If Christ meant for us tointerpret the call to quote
unquote save souls and makedisciples as the totality of
(08:09):
Christian mission, he could havesaid so, but he didn't.
Instead he used his final wordsto reiterate the importance of
following the totality of histeachings.
That's the first problem withtreating the Great Commission as
the only commission Jesus neverdid.
Here's the second.
Ironically, it makes us lesseffective at the Great
Commission.
I would argue that for theforeseeable future, just as it
(08:29):
was in the first few centuriesof Christianity, full-time
missionaries and pastors are notgoing to be the most effective
people at making disciples ofJesus Christ.
It's going to be mereChristians going to work Monday
through Friday with people whowill never darken the door of a
church to hear about Jesus forthe first time.
With people who will neverdarken the door of a church to
hear about Jesus for the firsttime.
(08:49):
But when the Great Commissionis the only one we hear preached
in our churches and when theonly people we see on stages in
our churches are pastors andfull-time missionaries, we, mere
Christians in the pews,inevitably feel guilty about
working in the very places mostlikely to make disciples, and I
think most dramatically thatguilt will drive people to leave
those workplaces, but at aminimum it will make us
half-hearted creatures while westay there.
(09:11):
I've spent the last two yearswriting this book about how our
work matters beyond the GreatCommission, and the irony is in
those two years I've shared thegospel more than in the 10 years
prior.
Why?
Because when you understand howa whole of your time, the end
of the time that you're walkingsomebody through the Roman's
road, it makes you come fullyalive, and fully alive people
(09:32):
attract the loss like honeyattracts bees.
So I promise three reasons whyit's so dangerous to treat the
Great Commission as the onlycommission.
Number one Jesus never did.
Number two we're ironicallymaking the church less effective
at the Great Commission when wedo this.
And then, finally, and mostrelevant to the topic of this
book, when the Great Commission,when we treat the Great
Commission as the onlycommission, it is impossible to
see the full extent of how ourwork matters for eternity.
(09:54):
Because if the Great Commissionis the only commission, then
our work only has eternal valuewhen leveraged to the
instrumental end of saving souls.
And if our work only hasinstrumental value, then most of
us are wasting the vastmajority of our time.
That's deeply depressing.
More importantly, it's deeplyunbiblical.
And so the purpose of this bookreaders, our listeners.
Right now they understand thattheir work matters because they
(10:16):
could share the gospel.
What about the other 99% of yourtime at work?
How does that matter foreternity?
And that's what we're reallysinking our teeth into with this
book Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
More definitions here , but it also really helped me
when you talked aboutinstrumental value versus
intrinsic value, and both ofthose lend additional insight
into this whole topic.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, for sure, and this is kind of what we were
just talking about.
So I define instrumental valueand I think this is what most
Christians understand already.
My work has value because,let's say, as a barista, right,
my work has eternal valuebecause I can leverage that job
as a barista to the instrumentalend of sharing the gospel with
my coworkers or writing a checkto my church.
(11:01):
Instrumental value, right.
What I'm arguing in this bookis hey, yes, your work has
instrumental value, Absolutely100%, but it also has intrinsic
value to God.
On the days in which you'remaking a latte and don't have a
chance to share the gospel withsomebody, that act of making a
latte has the potential tomatter for eternity, right?
(11:22):
That's the crux of this book.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Okay, so that's a perfect lead into this idea of
the abridged version of thegospel versus the unabridged.
So tell our listeners what youmean by that.
Because, wow, this was like apop the cork out of the bottle
moment for me when I read thissection.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah.
So the introduction of the bookis really setting up the
problem.
It's like, okay, we're treatingthe Great Commission as the
only commission.
How do we move away from thislie?
And I would argue there are twothick roots feeding that lie.
Number one are thesehalf-truths about heaven that
we've begun believing in ourcurrent day and age.
And number two are thesehalf-truths that we bought about
the gospel, or what I call theabridged gospel, which I would
(12:04):
argue is the dominant version ofJesus' good news preached today
.
Here's what it sounds like thegospel is the good news that
Jesus came to save you and mefrom our sins.
Listen, every word of thatstatement is praise God.
Gloriously true, but it is atragically incomplete and
truncated version of the gospel,hence the name the abridged
gospel.
And there's tons of practicalimplications for this right,
(12:26):
because if the gospel is onlygood news for our souls, as the
abridged gospel suggests, thenthe great commission to save
souls and make disciples is thesingular mission of your life,
and most of you are wasting mostof your time, including myself.
Right, but this isn't the goodnews.
This isn't the totality of thegood news we see in scripture.
Right, the unabridged gospelsays that in the beginning, god
(12:47):
created a perfect world andinvited his children to be with
him first and foremost and torule over this world with him.
First commission that we see inGenesis 1.
Right there in Genesis 1, goddoesn't just call our souls good
, he calls all of creation,including this material world
and our work with that materialworld, very good.
(13:08):
Turn your Bible over to Genesis3.
We sin, we usher in the cursethat broke every part of
creation, ensuring our need fora savior and Jesus' resurrection
fast forward thousands of yearsproved emphatically that he was
the savior that God promised inGenesis 3, who saves us by
grace, through faith.
And while we are not saved byour works, we have been saved
for the good works God preparedin advance for us to do all
(13:31):
along.
And what are those good works?
Go back to Genesis 1, workingwith this material world to
cultivate heaven on earth.
And if that's the gospel, thisindescribably great news, not
just for my soul but for thecosmos, right For this material
world, then we can be confident.
This is kind of where I land inthe book.
(13:52):
In this dual vocation we havein the present yes, the great
commission to make disciples,but also the first commission to
make culture and make a worldthat oozes God's goodness over
the face of the earth.
Right, there's this lie thathas crept into Christianity that
says that somehow, post Genesisthree, the great commission has
replaced the first commission.
(14:13):
That's a lie, you know why?
Because Jesus's blood paid theprice to redeem the spiritual
and the material world, to putus back to the work we were
meant to do from the beginningin the garden to cultivate this
world and make it more usefulfor other human beings' benefit
and enjoyment.
And because of that you canstart to see how a hundred of
your life matters for eternity,not just the explicitly
(14:37):
spiritual tasks of evangelismand prayer.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Absolutely.
One of the things that youtalked about that really
solidified this for me was whenyou talked about how they used
the parts of the earth to createthings with right, like the
stones and gold, and then yourefer to it, then look at the
end story, right, the newcreation, and that's what we see
(15:03):
as well.
Can you just elaborate a littlebit more on that?
I would love to.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Nobody ever asked about this.
It's one of my favorite detailsin all of scripture.
I'm so glad you appreciated it.
Okay, so there's this littledetail in Genesis 2 that I
skipped over for years.
I'm like I don't know what thismeans, I don't know the
relevance, and it's a perfectsymbol for Christian mission.
Okay, genesis 2, a humanmission, really.
(15:30):
Genesis two, 10 through 12, saysflowed from Eden.
It winds through the entireland of Havilah, where there is
gold.
The gold of that land is good.
Aromatic resin and onyx arealso there.
Okay, so in the second chapterof scripture, we find these
three elements underneath Adamand Eve's worksite gold,
aromatic resin, which is alsotranslated pearls sometimes.
And onyx, which, for those ofus who are not geologists, is
(15:51):
this beautiful precious stoneright?
Where else do we see thesethree things in God's word in
the second to last chapter ofscripture this could not be more
poetic which describes the newJerusalem, god's eternal city,
as having streets of gold, gatesmade of pearls and walls
decorated with every kind ofprecious stone, including onyx.
(16:12):
I've read a lot of theologianswho argue that these materials
were placed beneath the groundto be discovered by Adam and Eve
or their descendants for theliteral construction of what
would become the city of God.
I think that's right.
I think this is God's poeticway of illustrating the first
commission of saying hey, kids.
I think that's right.
I think this is God's poeticway of illustrating the first
commission of saying hey, kids,I created this world good.
(16:33):
I created for you to fill itand subdue it and rule it with
me for my glory and your joy.
And somehow miraculous is theresurrection of a couple
thousand years later.
Somehow, all of your labor isnot going to be in vain.
Somehow, I'm going to take allthat labor and use it to build
our eternal home.
Right?
It's just this beautiful symbolof what we were meant to do in
(16:54):
the beginning, what Christ hasredeemed us to do today.
I don't think we're literallyconstructing the new Jerusalem
now, post Genesis three, butthis is what we were made for in
the beginning and fast forwardto our eternal vocation.
This is what we're going to bedoing forever and ever.
Right, and I talk a lot aboutthis in the book.
Eternity is not a vacation buta perfect vocation.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes, I laughed when I read that.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, Working with King Jesus without the curse.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah yeah, incredible , incredible.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout the half truths about
heaven and the five whole truthsthat are really relevant to our
work.
Yeah, you don't have to go toall of them.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
but oh man, let's no, let's do it.
Let's.
I don't think we can get to allof them.
There's so much impact.
Here's the problem, and I hadthis problem for years Most of
us spend more time planning aone week vacation than we do
thinking about eternity, andwhat happens is that inevitably
(17:51):
will lead us to settle forwishy-washy half-truths about
heaven that are full-blown liesbut are half-truths peddled by
culture, rather than the epicwhole truths that we find in
scripture that are essential forfueling our hope for the future
and, I believe, our purpose inthe present.
Let me just unpack a couple ofthem.
One this half-truth that earthis our temporary home Kind of
true.
The whole truth is that Earthis our temporary home until it
(18:12):
is our perfect and permanent one.
Contrary to what the Americanend time tabloids might tell you
, the earth is not going to bevaporized like the Death Star in
Star Wars.
Right, this is all based on asingle verse, taken out of
context in a very, very oldtranslation of this passage of 2
Peter 3.10, where it says thatthe earth and everything in it
(18:33):
will be burned up.
Right, new Testament scholarswill tell you, and this is why
we see in newer translations ofthe Bible, that word isn't there
Because, based on the newmanuscripts of the Bible that we
have, the newest manuscripts wehave.
That word isn't in there.
The word that's there says theearth will be found out, will be
disclosed, will be revealed,and that's consistent with God's
character.
God is not a creator whoobliterates and destroys.
(18:55):
He reconciles and redeems.
That's true of our souls,that's true of human bodies See
the risen Christ and I wouldargue, that's true of this earth
.
Our hope is not for a whole newworld, but a whole renewed
world, and more and more Bibletranslations are actually
translating new earth to renewedearth, because that's a far
(19:16):
more biblical picture of this.
Now the listener is asking whythe heck does this matter?
Here's why this matters.
If this earth is truly going tobe obliterated in the end it's
going to be destroyed cosmicdestruction Then our work with
this material world of plantinggardens and typing on MacBooks
made out of aluminum from theearth does not matter in the
grand scheme of eternity.
But if this earth is eternaland the things I'm working with
(19:40):
are eternal, oh, suddenly mywork has a lot more eternal
significance.
So I got a lot more purpose inthe present and a lot more hope
for the future, realizing thatnobody's gonna spend eternity in
heaven.
As we think about heaven today.
Nobody, not one person.
Heaven will be here on earth.
That's what Revelation 21promises and that gives us much
more concrete hope for what itwill be like to worship with
(20:03):
Christ forever and ever.
That's another half-truth inthe book, this half-truth that
we will worship for all eternity.
The whole truth is we're goingto worship for eternity by
singing and by working with ourhands See Isaiah 65.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, and I think, like I love how you've dispelled
, I think, a lot of thesehalf-truths that people that are
so predominant even inChristian culture right that you
know you explaining all of thatwas incredibly helpful.
Well, the title of your book,jordan, is Four Ways your Job
Matters for Eternity, even whenyou're not sharing the gospel.
(20:37):
So what are those four ways?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, let's do it.
Number one you work marriagefor eternity because it is a
vehicle for contributing toGod's eternal pleasure Wild
thing to think about.
God doesn't need anything fromus, but he allows us in our work
to contribute to his eternaljoy.
Psalm 37, 23 says that the Lorddirects the steps of the godly
and delights in every detail oftheir lives.
(21:00):
God does not just delight inwatching you give money to your
church, although he certainlydelights in that.
He doesn't just delight inwatching you explicitly share
the gospel with your coworkers.
He delights in every detail ofthe lives of the godly, which
means that everything you do atwork today, with excellence and
love and in accordance withGod's commands, is an ingredient
(21:23):
to his eternal pleasure, andthat's the essence of worship.
That's the first way you workmatters for eternity.
All of it, not just theexplicitly spiritual things you
work, matters for eternitybecause it is largely through
your work that you can earneternal rewards, which we never
talk about in the church, andthese are not we're not talking
about earning salvation about inthe church, and these are not.
We're not talking about earningsalvation.
(21:44):
We are talking about Jesus'sincessant command not just
urgent command that we chaseafter eternal rewards, like
treasures, like crowns and likeincreased job responsibilities
on the new earth.
Number three your work mattersfor eternity because through it,
I believe, we can scratch offthe thin veil currently
separating heaven and earth andreveal glimpses of the kingdom
of God in the present.
(22:05):
That's very mysterious and wecan unpack that more if you want
to, later.
And then finally, number fouryour work matters for eternity
because, yes, you can leverageit to the instrumental end of
sharing the gospel with thoseyou work with.
In the first few centuries ofChristianity, it was mere
Christians who contributed,according to scholars, more than
80% of conversions toChristianity.
It was not religious, it wasnot religious professionals, it
was not pastors preaching insynagogues, it was mere
(22:27):
Christians working as tentmakers and as mothers and as
marketers.
Whatever I would argue, thesame is going to be true today
if we accept that our work hasintrinsic and instrumental value
to God.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I just want everybody to kind of like soak that in,
because it just breathes newlife into you.
It really, it really does.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's been my favorite.
I've been reading all theseearly reviews of the book.
I have heard a few people saythis book has made me come up
fully alive for the first time,like man.
Yeah, yes, that's the net ofwhen you understand that God
cares about everything you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's not the book, it's the biblical truth in the
book that free us to embracethis work that we've always
loved but felt guilty for lovingright.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's a gift from God and he delights in that, and I'm
just giving you the biblicalframework to be like no, no, no,
no.
You've known in your bones thatthis matters beyond the Great
Commission.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I'm giving you the biblical evidence to support it,
and the net of that is, yeah,being a fully alive human being
who, ironically, is moreeffective at the Great
Commission because you're fullyalive launchers, helps us have
these conversations, and I thinkthat that would be a great way
to kind of wrap things up herewith our listeners to, like you
(23:46):
know, give like some practicaltools when you're at that point.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I made a promise to readers in this book that the
book would not just beinteresting, but that it would
be profoundly helpful.
Said another way, I'm not justgoing to show you how your work
matters for eternity.
I'm going to show youpractically how to respond to
that truth and maximize theeternal impact of your work.
So there's 24 practicesthroughout the book.
My favorite is this practice ofbuilding a list of launchers to
(24:12):
take conversations with thelost from the surface to the
serious, to the spiritual.
Because I don't know about you,ellen, but if not for some
intentionality, my conversationswith my lost neighbors and
coworkers tend to stay prettysuperficial, right.
But I found that with God'sgrace and just a tiny little bit
of intentionality, it's prettyeasy to move conversations
towards spiritual things.
(24:33):
So this is how this works.
I have a Google Doc on my phoneit's literally just called
launchers and I got a list ofnames in that Google Doc of
people that I am intentionallytrying to share the gospel with,
and next to each name I'velisted out a number of topics to
bring up the next time I seethat person to intentionally
steer the conversation from thesurface to the serious, to the
(24:53):
spiritual.
So let me give you an example.
We're recording this inDecember, a few weeks before
Christmas, and I'll change nameshere to protect the innocent.
But my buddy, we'll call himBrian, my buddy Brian, he's a
laps Catholic.
Next time I see Brian, I'mgoing to ask Brian, hey Brian,
what's your family's favoriteChristmas traditions?
It's a fairly superficial,surface level question.
But then I'm going to ask, heyman, um, when did you stop going
(25:14):
to Christmas Eve mass, cause Iknow you don't go anymore.
Right, it's getting a littlebit more serious.
And then I'm going to go to thespiritual big hey man, where
are you at with your faith?
I know you grew up in thechurch.
I know you haven't been in along time.
Where are you at with thequestion of Jesus?
And maybe ask, hey, would youand your family want to come to
church with my family onChristmas Eve this year?
So you see how just a tinylittle bit of intentionality of
(25:36):
asking about Christmastraditions with your kids that
nobody's going to not talk aboutcan be intentionally structured
in a way to move, to launchthat conversation from the
surface to the serious, to thespiritual.
So, listeners, if you want to dothis, this is the easiest thing
you'll do.
It'll take you 10 minutes.
Three steps to building yourown list of launchers.
Step one choose where you'regoing to keep your list of
launchers.
This could be a Google doc,like me, it could be a physical
(25:57):
journal, it could be a simplenote on your iPhone, whatever.
Step two list out the people.
Shoot for five people you'reintentionally trying to share
the gospel with in this season.
And then, step three just nextto each person's name, list a
few questions, a few topics, afew conversation starters that
you think might, by God's grace,lead that conversation from the
surface to the serious, to thespiritual.
(26:18):
So the 24 practices in thisbook, that one has been a total
game changer for me,specifically to help me be
better about making disciples,which, again, is only one of the
ways I work.
Matters for eternity, but it'scertainly an important one.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes yes, absolutely, and, like you said, there's so
many other things in this book.
Listeners, you're going to haveto get Jordan's book, the
Sacredness of Cellular Work,because, like you said, there
are so many other principlesthat you can put into place.
Well, jordan, thank you so muchfor joining us here again today
(26:51):
and I just wish you all thebest on this book, and I know
listeners for you that arelistening.
I hope that you feel challengedand encouraged and have a
desire to investigate thisfurther and check out Jordan's
book.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Thank you, Ellen.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to see you write abook someday.
That's what we're all waitingfor.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
We're working on it All right, jordan, such a joy to
have you with us.
We are so grateful for youlisteners.
Thank you for joining us on ourpodcast.
Have a blessed day.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
All right.
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.
Our goal is to help you delightin God's Word and thrive in
Christian living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus, hey Jordan.
(00:29):
What a joy it is to reconnectwith you today.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I always love hanging out with you and your daughters
.
Ellen, how have you been?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh my, goodness, there's so much been going on
since we last met, but I'd likefor you to catch me up on what's
going on in your life.
So Jordan and I were in amastermind group together.
That's how we met.
He's an incredible author andI'm just excited to tell our
audience what's been maybe themost challenging thing and the
(00:59):
most exciting thing that'shappened since we talked last.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh man, it's probably been a year since we connected.
The most challenging thing hasgot to be finding the courage to
say, yeah, I'm going to publishthis book that we're publishing
right now.
Because as you know, you'veseen an advanced copy of it.
I'm saying some things thataren't said a lot of times in
evangelical circles around thetopic of faith and work, and
saying some hard things, and Iwas just really blessed Actually
(01:24):
, right before Dr Keller died,tim Keller, we had a great
conversation and talking aboutthe contents of this book and
just my work in general and himjust like blessing that and
encouraging me to just, you know, lean into the message of this
book.
And so when I think about thebiggest challenge and the
biggest blessing, I think kindof that goes hand in hand.
The biggest challenge is likefinding the courage to beg yeah,
I know we're going to say thesethings and the blessing is
(01:45):
having people like Tim andelders come around the book and
beg, yes, like this is what thechurch needs to hear right now.
And then, just more on apersonal level, I got three
young kids right, so a very fulllife.
I have three daughters who arenine, seven and four and yeah,
so like there's just likeconstant challenges and
blessings wrapped up in being afather to three girls.
(02:06):
I mean you get it, you're amama bear, you're a mama.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You get it.
Oh yeah, yeah, I have three aswell, and boy.
I just know those are busy,busy years.
A lot going on as they getinvolved in all their different
things, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
And maybe you can counsel me.
We have a therapy session.
What's challenging is to pushback on the cultural assumption
of busyness and hurry.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, and just refusing to be in sports six
days a week.
Right, yeah Just like not in thecourts and listen.
That's fine for some people I'mnot.
I'm not judging other peoplewho are doing that, but, like
for me and my family, I think Iwould go crazy living that kind
of lifestyle.
So I feel like, by God's grace,we're living at a really sane
pace and, by his grace, this isjust like a really fun, sweet
(02:48):
season.
Yeah, because when they'resuper young it's not fun.
I don't care what anybody says.
Everyone's like oh, you'regoing to miss the baby years.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I don't think you are .
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I don't think you are .
When they get older, it getsmore fun.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, no, I just putting boundaries on your time
is so valuable, especially likenow that I've come to the point
in my life where my kids arehalf moved out that you know you
can't get those years back,right, yeah, so I love that you
said that you're keeping tabs onthat.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well, jordan, I'm so excited actually to talk to you
about this topic today, and Ithink back now about I wish I
would have read your book whileI was a stay-at-home mom or
while I was working in corporateAmerica, because as I was going
through it, I just found it sotremendously encouraging, so
insightful.
You really turned my head a fewtimes as I thought about things
(03:41):
.
So let's jump right in.
So our goal here today, right,is to help our listeners see how
their secular work matters foreternity, and I found it so
interesting that, right from theget-go, you first turned around
my understanding of the wordwork.
So I think it's important forour audience because we have
(04:04):
such a diverse age group herestudents and moms and all kinds
of people.
So help us understand what isthis definition of work?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
the biblical way.
Yeah, it's good.
Listen, the Bible doesn't comewith a glossary, unfortunately,
so I think we've got to look toScripture for clues as to how
God might define these terms.
And I think if God were, ifJesus were sitting here on this
podcast and forced to definework, I think he would define it
a lot more broadly than the waythat we typically do.
We typically define work as thething somebody does for income,
(04:36):
but God's definition of work isso broad that in Exodus 20, as
he's handing down the 10commandments, he says that even
animals work right.
Is he's handing down the 10commandments?
He says that even animals workright?
The fourth commandment toSabbath is a command for humans
to rest and animals to rest fromtheir labor.
So I think the most biblicalway to define work is simply to
expend energy in an effort toachieve a desired result or
(04:59):
stated negatively right.
It's the opposite of leisureand rest.
And that definition obviouslyincludes what you do for pay as
a marketer or a librarian or ateacher, an entrepreneur,
whatever.
But it also includes the workwe do at home, doing laundry and
mowing the grass or studyingfor an exam.
All of that is work, and Ithink the story we see in
(05:20):
scripture is that all of itmatters for eternity, and that's
really the crux of this newbook that we're launching out.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And it's just, it adds so much value to your life
when you think of it this way.
So the second clarificationthen that also really broadened
my understanding was how allChristians can instantly view
their secular workplace assacred.
Tell us what you mean by that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, these terms matter right.
I'm glad we're defining terms.
This is how every one of theseinterviews should start.
Ellen, you're doing it right.
That word secular literallymeans without God, with no
regard to religion, without God.
But we Christians believe wejust prayed this before we
started recording that God iswith us literally wherever we go
through the power of his HolySpirit, and so the only thing
(06:09):
you, listener, need to do toinstantly make your quote
unquote secular workplace sacredis walk through the front door
or log on to Zoom.
That's it.
Now.
I'll say that with a big caveat.
Clearly there's some workthat's off limits for Christ
followers, right.
But I'm going to go ahead andassume that our listeners are
not making a living explicitlyexploiting the poor or peddling
pornography or something elsethat overtly contradicts God's
(06:31):
word.
And if that's true and you areseeking first the kingdom of God
, then, in the words of thegreat preacher Charles Spurgeon,
nothing is secular, everythingis sacred, because everywhere
you walk is sacred ground.
So for me, there's no questionof the sacredness of the
seemingly quote unquote secularwork our listeners do.
I think the more interestingquestion, I think the more life
(06:53):
changing question is okay howdoes that sacred work matter
beyond the present?
Because we understand that inthe present it's a means of
loving my neighbors, myself.
It's a means of glorifying God,but how does it matter for
eternity?
And that's the question I'mhelping readers unpack in the
sacredness of secular work.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Absolutely Well in the book that you say that the
Great Commission, as we know, isgreat and you're not denying
that, but you're saying it's notthe only commission.
So tell us about the GreatCommission and the danger in
treating it as the onlycommission that.
So tell us about the GreatCommission and the danger in
treating it as the onlycommission that Jesus gave us.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed out that I'm not
saying the Great Commissionisn't great.
I think the Great Commission isvery great.
But it is a very new idea inchurch history, roughly 200
years old, that the GreatCommission is the only
commission that Jesus' followersare called to, this call to
make disciples.
And it's really problematic fora lot of reasons.
I'll just give you threereasons why it's so problematic
(07:48):
to treat it as the onlycommission, number one, jesus
never did.
In Matthew 28, 19 through 20,he said go make disciples of all
nations, teaching them to obeyeverything I have commanded you
to do right.
And the gospels record Jesusgiving us about 50 unique
commands.
If Christ meant for us tointerpret the call to quote
unquote save souls and makedisciples as the totality of
(08:09):
Christian mission, he could havesaid so, but he didn't.
Instead he used his final wordsto reiterate the importance of
following the totality of histeachings.
That's the first problem withtreating the Great Commission as
the only commission Jesus neverdid.
Here's the second.
Ironically, it makes us lesseffective at the Great
Commission.
I would argue that for theforeseeable future, just as it
(08:29):
was in the first few centuriesof Christianity, full-time
missionaries and pastors are notgoing to be the most effective
people at making disciples ofJesus Christ.
It's going to be mereChristians going to work Monday
through Friday with people whowill never darken the door of a
church to hear about Jesus forthe first time.
With people who will neverdarken the door of a church to
hear about Jesus for the firsttime.
(08:49):
But when the Great Commissionis the only one we hear preached
in our churches and when theonly people we see on stages in
our churches are pastors andfull-time missionaries, we, mere
Christians in the pews,inevitably feel guilty about
working in the very places mostlikely to make disciples, and I
think most dramatically thatguilt will drive people to leave
those workplaces, but at aminimum it will make us
half-hearted creatures while westay there.
(09:11):
I've spent the last two yearswriting this book about how our
work matters beyond the GreatCommission, and the irony is in
those two years I've shared thegospel more than in the 10 years
prior.
Why?
Because when you understand howa whole of your time, the end
of the time that you're walkingsomebody through the Roman's
road, it makes you come fullyalive, and fully alive people
(09:32):
attract the loss like honeyattracts bees.
So I promise three reasons whyit's so dangerous to treat the
Great Commission as the onlycommission.
Number one Jesus never did.
Number two we're ironicallymaking the church less effective
at the Great Commission when wedo this.
And then, finally, and mostrelevant to the topic of this
book, when the Great Commission,when we treat the Great
Commission as the onlycommission, it is impossible to
see the full extent of how ourwork matters for eternity.
(09:54):
Because if the Great Commissionis the only commission, then
our work only has eternal valuewhen leveraged to the
instrumental end of saving souls.
And if our work only hasinstrumental value, then most of
us are wasting the vastmajority of our time.
That's deeply depressing.
More importantly, it's deeplyunbiblical.
And so the purpose of this bookreaders, our listeners.
Right now they understand thattheir work matters because they
(10:16):
could share the gospel.
What about the other 99% of yourtime at work?
How does that matter foreternity?
And that's what we're reallysinking our teeth into with this
book Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
More definitions here , but it also really helped me
when you talked aboutinstrumental value versus
intrinsic value, and both ofthose lend additional insight
into this whole topic.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, for sure, and this is kind of what we were
just talking about.
So I define instrumental valueand I think this is what most
Christians understand already.
My work has value because,let's say, as a barista, right,
my work has eternal valuebecause I can leverage that job
as a barista to the instrumentalend of sharing the gospel with
my coworkers or writing a checkto my church.
(11:01):
Instrumental value, right.
What I'm arguing in this bookis hey, yes, your work has
instrumental value, Absolutely100%, but it also has intrinsic
value to God.
On the days in which you'remaking a latte and don't have a
chance to share the gospel withsomebody, that act of making a
latte has the potential tomatter for eternity, right?
(11:22):
That's the crux of this book.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Okay, so that's a perfect lead into this idea of
the abridged version of thegospel versus the unabridged.
So tell our listeners what youmean by that.
Because, wow, this was like apop the cork out of the bottle
moment for me when I read thissection.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah.
So the introduction of the bookis really setting up the
problem.
It's like, okay, we're treatingthe Great Commission as the
only commission.
How do we move away from thislie?
And I would argue there are twothick roots feeding that lie.
Number one are thesehalf-truths about heaven that
we've begun believing in ourcurrent day and age.
And number two are thesehalf-truths that we bought about
the gospel, or what I call theabridged gospel, which I would
(12:04):
argue is the dominant version ofJesus' good news preached today
.
Here's what it sounds like thegospel is the good news that
Jesus came to save you and mefrom our sins.
Listen, every word of thatstatement is praise God.
Gloriously true, but it is atragically incomplete and
truncated version of the gospel,hence the name the abridged
gospel.
And there's tons of practicalimplications for this right,
(12:26):
because if the gospel is onlygood news for our souls, as the
abridged gospel suggests, thenthe great commission to save
souls and make disciples is thesingular mission of your life,
and most of you are wasting mostof your time, including myself.
Right, but this isn't the goodnews.
This isn't the totality of thegood news we see in scripture.
Right, the unabridged gospelsays that in the beginning, god
(12:47):
created a perfect world andinvited his children to be with
him first and foremost and torule over this world with him.
First commission that we see inGenesis 1.
Right there in Genesis 1, goddoesn't just call our souls good
, he calls all of creation,including this material world
and our work with that materialworld, very good.
(13:08):
Turn your Bible over to Genesis3.
We sin, we usher in the cursethat broke every part of
creation, ensuring our need fora savior and Jesus' resurrection
fast forward thousands of yearsproved emphatically that he was
the savior that God promised inGenesis 3, who saves us by
grace, through faith.
And while we are not saved byour works, we have been saved
for the good works God preparedin advance for us to do all
(13:31):
along.
And what are those good works?
Go back to Genesis 1, workingwith this material world to
cultivate heaven on earth.
And if that's the gospel, thisindescribably great news, not
just for my soul but for thecosmos, right For this material
world, then we can be confident.
This is kind of where I land inthe book.
(13:52):
In this dual vocation we havein the present yes, the great
commission to make disciples,but also the first commission to
make culture and make a worldthat oozes God's goodness over
the face of the earth.
Right, there's this lie thathas crept into Christianity that
says that somehow, post Genesisthree, the great commission has
replaced the first commission.
(14:13):
That's a lie, you know why?
Because Jesus's blood paid theprice to redeem the spiritual
and the material world, to putus back to the work we were
meant to do from the beginningin the garden to cultivate this
world and make it more usefulfor other human beings' benefit
and enjoyment.
And because of that you canstart to see how a hundred of
your life matters for eternity,not just the explicitly
(14:37):
spiritual tasks of evangelismand prayer.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Absolutely.
One of the things that youtalked about that really
solidified this for me was whenyou talked about how they used
the parts of the earth to createthings with right, like the
stones and gold, and then yourefer to it, then look at the
end story, right, the newcreation, and that's what we see
(15:03):
as well.
Can you just elaborate a littlebit more on that?
I would love to.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Nobody ever asked about this.
It's one of my favorite detailsin all of scripture.
I'm so glad you appreciated it.
Okay, so there's this littledetail in Genesis 2 that I
skipped over for years.
I'm like I don't know what thismeans, I don't know the
relevance, and it's a perfectsymbol for Christian mission.
Okay, genesis 2, a humanmission, really.
(15:30):
Genesis two, 10 through 12, saysflowed from Eden.
It winds through the entireland of Havilah, where there is
gold.
The gold of that land is good.
Aromatic resin and onyx arealso there.
Okay, so in the second chapterof scripture, we find these
three elements underneath Adamand Eve's worksite gold,
aromatic resin, which is alsotranslated pearls sometimes.
And onyx, which, for those ofus who are not geologists, is
(15:51):
this beautiful precious stoneright?
Where else do we see thesethree things in God's word in
the second to last chapter ofscripture this could not be more
poetic which describes the newJerusalem, god's eternal city,
as having streets of gold, gatesmade of pearls and walls
decorated with every kind ofprecious stone, including onyx.
(16:12):
I've read a lot of theologianswho argue that these materials
were placed beneath the groundto be discovered by Adam and Eve
or their descendants for theliteral construction of what
would become the city of God.
I think that's right.
I think this is God's poeticway of illustrating the first
commission of saying hey, kids.
I think that's right.
I think this is God's poeticway of illustrating the first
commission of saying hey, kids,I created this world good.
(16:33):
I created for you to fill itand subdue it and rule it with
me for my glory and your joy.
And somehow miraculous is theresurrection of a couple
thousand years later.
Somehow, all of your labor isnot going to be in vain.
Somehow, I'm going to take allthat labor and use it to build
our eternal home.
Right?
It's just this beautiful symbolof what we were meant to do in
(16:54):
the beginning, what Christ hasredeemed us to do today.
I don't think we're literallyconstructing the new Jerusalem
now, post Genesis three, butthis is what we were made for in
the beginning and fast forwardto our eternal vocation.
This is what we're going to bedoing forever and ever.
Right, and I talk a lot aboutthis in the book.
Eternity is not a vacation buta perfect vocation.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yes, I laughed when I read that.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, Working with King Jesus without the curse.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah yeah, incredible , incredible.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout the half truths about
heaven and the five whole truthsthat are really relevant to our
work.
Yeah, you don't have to go toall of them.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
but oh man, let's no, let's do it.
Let's.
I don't think we can get to allof them.
There's so much impact.
Here's the problem, and I hadthis problem for years Most of
us spend more time planning aone week vacation than we do
thinking about eternity, andwhat happens is that inevitably
(17:51):
will lead us to settle forwishy-washy half-truths about
heaven that are full-blown liesbut are half-truths peddled by
culture, rather than the epicwhole truths that we find in
scripture that are essential forfueling our hope for the future
and, I believe, our purpose inthe present.
Let me just unpack a couple ofthem.
One this half-truth that earthis our temporary home Kind of
true.
The whole truth is that Earthis our temporary home until it
(18:12):
is our perfect and permanent one.
Contrary to what the Americanend time tabloids might tell you
, the earth is not going to bevaporized like the Death Star in
Star Wars.
Right, this is all based on asingle verse, taken out of
context in a very, very oldtranslation of this passage of 2
Peter 3.10, where it says thatthe earth and everything in it
(18:33):
will be burned up.
Right, new Testament scholarswill tell you, and this is why
we see in newer translations ofthe Bible, that word isn't there
Because, based on the newmanuscripts of the Bible that we
have, the newest manuscripts wehave.
That word isn't in there.
The word that's there says theearth will be found out, will be
disclosed, will be revealed,and that's consistent with God's
character.
God is not a creator whoobliterates and destroys.
(18:55):
He reconciles and redeems.
That's true of our souls,that's true of human bodies See
the risen Christ and I wouldargue, that's true of this earth
.
Our hope is not for a whole newworld, but a whole renewed
world, and more and more Bibletranslations are actually
translating new earth to renewedearth, because that's a far
(19:16):
more biblical picture of this.
Now the listener is asking whythe heck does this matter?
Here's why this matters.
If this earth is truly going tobe obliterated in the end it's
going to be destroyed cosmicdestruction Then our work with
this material world of plantinggardens and typing on MacBooks
made out of aluminum from theearth does not matter in the
grand scheme of eternity.
But if this earth is eternaland the things I'm working with
(19:40):
are eternal, oh, suddenly mywork has a lot more eternal
significance.
So I got a lot more purpose inthe present and a lot more hope
for the future, realizing thatnobody's gonna spend eternity in
heaven.
As we think about heaven today.
Nobody, not one person.
Heaven will be here on earth.
That's what Revelation 21promises and that gives us much
more concrete hope for what itwill be like to worship with
(20:03):
Christ forever and ever.
That's another half-truth inthe book, this half-truth that
we will worship for all eternity.
The whole truth is we're goingto worship for eternity by
singing and by working with ourhands See Isaiah 65.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, and I think, like I love how you've dispelled
, I think, a lot of thesehalf-truths that people that are
so predominant even inChristian culture right that you
know you explaining all of thatwas incredibly helpful.
Well, the title of your book,jordan, is Four Ways your Job
Matters for Eternity, even whenyou're not sharing the gospel.
(20:37):
So what are those four ways?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, let's do it.
Number one you work marriagefor eternity because it is a
vehicle for contributing toGod's eternal pleasure Wild
thing to think about.
God doesn't need anything fromus, but he allows us in our work
to contribute to his eternaljoy.
Psalm 37, 23 says that the Lorddirects the steps of the godly
and delights in every detail oftheir lives.
(21:00):
God does not just delight inwatching you give money to your
church, although he certainlydelights in that.
He doesn't just delight inwatching you explicitly share
the gospel with your coworkers.
He delights in every detail ofthe lives of the godly, which
means that everything you do atwork today, with excellence and
love and in accordance withGod's commands, is an ingredient
(21:23):
to his eternal pleasure, andthat's the essence of worship.
That's the first way you workmatters for eternity.
All of it, not just theexplicitly spiritual things you
work, matters for eternitybecause it is largely through
your work that you can earneternal rewards, which we never
talk about in the church, andthese are not we're not talking
about earning salvation about inthe church, and these are not.
We're not talking about earningsalvation.
(21:44):
We are talking about Jesus'sincessant command not just
urgent command that we chaseafter eternal rewards, like
treasures, like crowns and likeincreased job responsibilities
on the new earth.
Number three your work mattersfor eternity because through it,
I believe, we can scratch offthe thin veil currently
separating heaven and earth andreveal glimpses of the kingdom
of God in the present.
(22:05):
That's very mysterious and wecan unpack that more if you want
to, later.
And then finally, number fouryour work matters for eternity
because, yes, you can leverageit to the instrumental end of
sharing the gospel with thoseyou work with.
In the first few centuries ofChristianity, it was mere
Christians who contributed,according to scholars, more than
80% of conversions toChristianity.
It was not religious, it wasnot religious professionals, it
was not pastors preaching insynagogues, it was mere
(22:27):
Christians working as tentmakers and as mothers and as
marketers.
Whatever I would argue, thesame is going to be true today
if we accept that our work hasintrinsic and instrumental value
to God.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I just want everybody to kind of like soak that in,
because it just breathes newlife into you.
It really, it really does.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's been my favorite.
I've been reading all theseearly reviews of the book.
I have heard a few people saythis book has made me come up
fully alive for the first time,like man.
Yeah, yes, that's the net ofwhen you understand that God
cares about everything you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's not the book, it's the biblical truth in the
book that free us to embracethis work that we've always
loved but felt guilty for lovingright.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's a gift from God and he delights in that, and I'm
just giving you the biblicalframework to be like no, no, no,
no.
You've known in your bones thatthis matters beyond the Great
Commission.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I'm giving you the biblical evidence to support it,
and the net of that is, yeah,being a fully alive human being
who, ironically, is moreeffective at the Great
Commission because you're fullyalive launchers, helps us have
these conversations, and I thinkthat that would be a great way
to kind of wrap things up herewith our listeners to, like you
(23:46):
know, give like some practicaltools when you're at that point.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I made a promise to readers in this book that the
book would not just beinteresting, but that it would
be profoundly helpful.
Said another way, I'm not justgoing to show you how your work
matters for eternity.
I'm going to show youpractically how to respond to
that truth and maximize theeternal impact of your work.
So there's 24 practicesthroughout the book.
My favorite is this practice ofbuilding a list of launchers to
(24:12):
take conversations with thelost from the surface to the
serious, to the spiritual.
Because I don't know about you,ellen, but if not for some
intentionality, my conversationswith my lost neighbors and
coworkers tend to stay prettysuperficial, right.
But I found that with God'sgrace and just a tiny little bit
of intentionality, it's prettyeasy to move conversations
towards spiritual things.
(24:33):
So this is how this works.
I have a Google Doc on my phoneit's literally just called
launchers and I got a list ofnames in that Google Doc of
people that I am intentionallytrying to share the gospel with,
and next to each name I'velisted out a number of topics to
bring up the next time I seethat person to intentionally
steer the conversation from thesurface to the serious, to the
(24:53):
spiritual.
So let me give you an example.
We're recording this inDecember, a few weeks before
Christmas, and I'll change nameshere to protect the innocent.
But my buddy, we'll call himBrian, my buddy Brian, he's a
laps Catholic.
Next time I see Brian, I'mgoing to ask Brian, hey Brian,
what's your family's favoriteChristmas traditions?
It's a fairly superficial,surface level question.
But then I'm going to ask, heyman, um, when did you stop going
(25:14):
to Christmas Eve mass, cause Iknow you don't go anymore.
Right, it's getting a littlebit more serious.
And then I'm going to go to thespiritual big hey man, where
are you at with your faith?
I know you grew up in thechurch.
I know you haven't been in along time.
Where are you at with thequestion of Jesus?
And maybe ask, hey, would youand your family want to come to
church with my family onChristmas Eve this year?
So you see how just a tinylittle bit of intentionality of
(25:36):
asking about Christmastraditions with your kids that
nobody's going to not talk aboutcan be intentionally structured
in a way to move, to launchthat conversation from the
surface to the serious, to thespiritual.
So, listeners, if you want to dothis, this is the easiest thing
you'll do.
It'll take you 10 minutes.
Three steps to building yourown list of launchers.
Step one choose where you'regoing to keep your list of
launchers.
This could be a Google doc,like me, it could be a physical
(25:57):
journal, it could be a simplenote on your iPhone, whatever.
Step two list out the people.
Shoot for five people you'reintentionally trying to share
the gospel with in this season.
And then, step three just nextto each person's name, list a
few questions, a few topics, afew conversation starters that
you think might, by God's grace,lead that conversation from the
surface to the serious, to thespiritual.
(26:18):
So the 24 practices in thisbook, that one has been a total
game changer for me,specifically to help me be
better about making disciples,which, again, is only one of the
ways I work.
Matters for eternity, but it'scertainly an important one.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes yes, absolutely, and, like you said, there's so
many other things in this book.
Listeners, you're going to haveto get Jordan's book, the
Sacredness of Cellular Work,because, like you said, there
are so many other principlesthat you can put into place.
Well, jordan, thank you so muchfor joining us here again today
(26:51):
and I just wish you all thebest on this book, and I know
listeners for you that arelistening.
I hope that you feel challengedand encouraged and have a
desire to investigate thisfurther and check out Jordan's
book.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Thank you, Ellen.
I can't wait.
I can't wait to see you write abook someday.
That's what we're all waitingfor.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
We're working on it All right, jordan, such a joy to
have you with us.
We are so grateful for youlisteners.
Thank you for joining us on ourpodcast.
Have a blessed day.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
All right.
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