December 19, 2024 • 47 mins
What if the evil we encounter in life isn't from God, but a distortion of the good? This episode features a revealing conversation with Ingrid Faro, author of "Demystifying Evil: A Biblical and Personal Exploration." Ingrid opens up about her arduous journey through abuse and trauma, which tested her faith and propelled her into the depths of theology. Her story is a testament to the power of confronting evil head-on, understanding its biblical roots, and finding redemption through wisdom. Together, we unravel how recognizing our unwitting alignment with evil can lead to profound healing and a stronger bond with God and each other.
Learn to perceive these adversities not as roadblocks but as opportunities for transformation, where God can turn evil into good, granting us hope and resilience. We dive into the significance of seeking God's guidance to ensure our actions are truly benefiting others and reflect God’s love. Ingrid shares moving testimonies of faith, forgiveness, and the complex journey toward spiritual growth, reminding us that God's healing and forgiveness are always within reach. Join us for this insightful exploration of faith's power to navigate life's challenges with grace.
Ingrid's Links:
Book - Demystifying Evil
Website - ingridfaro.com
Bible - NIV Study Bible
Study Tool - How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellen Krause (00:04):
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast, o ur goal is
to help you delight in God'sWord and thrive in Christian
living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the Coffee andBible Time podcast.
This is Ellen, your host.
Evil is something that shakes us.
It can leave us feeling lost,broken and without hope.
Leave us feeling lost, brokenand without hope.
(00:49):
We've all felt its sting andit's easy to wonder how we are
supposed to respond to it.
In this episode, we are blessedto be joined by Ingrid Faro,
author of the book DemystifyingEvil a biblical and personal
exploration.
Ingrid dives deep into the Bible, history and her own painful
experiences to show that, whileevil is real, it doesn't get the
(01:11):
final word.
We need to acknowledge thereality of evil and then look to
the biblical story for guidance.
It's also important to reflecton our own lives and recognize
the ways we might be unknowinglycolluding with it.
If we let evil have its way, itcan divide us from each other
(01:34):
and God.
It distorts our perspective andleads us to despair.
Tempting us to accept its poweris final, and that simply is
not true.
Ingrid Faro is professor of OldTestament and coordinator of
the Masters in Old TestamentJerusalem University College
program.
Ingrid is an author andinternational speaker on topics
(01:59):
including deconstructing evil,navigating suffering,
forgiveness, lament, abuse,forgiveness, lament Abuse and
Power Dynamics, women in theBible and Ministry, genesis and
Ecclesiastes.
In addition to DemystifyingEvil, Ingrid is also the author
of Evil in Genesis and co-authorof Honest Answer.
(02:21):
Please welcome Ingrid.
Ingrid Faro (02:24):
Thanks.
It's so good to be with you,Ellen.
Thank you.
Ellen Krause (02:28):
Well, it's such a joy and I want my listeners to
know that you've come on thehighest of recommendations from
a dear mentor of mine andsomeone that you know as well.
So, Belinda, thank you for therecommendation and welcome,
Ingrid, thank you.
(02:49):
Well, Ingrid, I thought wewould just maybe start out by
having you tell us a little bitabout your personal story and
why you chose to do biblicalresearch on evil.
Ingrid Faro (03:03):
Yeah, thank you.
The whole reason I startedstudying theology was because of
the hardships, the abuse, thetrauma that I had been through
in my personal life over acouple of decades or so, and I
had so many questions.
I didn't know anymore if Godwas good, I didn't know if I
could trust him, I didn't knowif he loved me, I didn't know if
(03:25):
he was just, and I didn't wantto go back to church because I
had experienced a lot of hurtsfrom pastors there, and so it
was a tough place to be in.
And I had come to a point where, for a couple of years, with
the only reason that I knew Istill believed in God was I knew
I had come to a point where,for a couple of years, with the
(03:45):
only reason that I knew I stillbelieved in God was I knew I had
encountered God before.
I knew I had encountered Jesus'love and forgiveness.
So I knew I couldn't throw Godout.
But I was just wounded, and Icertainly know many, many, many
people who are in that situation, and that's certainly where I
(04:05):
was.
And so what I did?
I had thrown myself into work,I was in the business world and
I just became a workaholic, so Ididn't have to hear what I was
thinking or feel what I wasfeeling, as long as I could just
keep plowing ahead, get up andthrow myself into work and see
some success there that had cometo satisfy me until I worked
(04:27):
myself into a disability andsuddenly I was faced with having
to sit still.
And it was during that time Godgot hold of me and there was a
point where I knew God spoke tome and had spoken to my heart
saying you go get answers foryourself out of scripture.
Had spoken to my heart sayingyou go get answers for yourself
(04:47):
out of scripture and for you andthis is my insert inserting
because I was so hardheaded andGod knew me, he also knew the
plans for me.
He said for you, go get answersfrom the Greek and the Hebrew.
So I started studying theologyquite a bit later in life and
just continued to study and lifekept having problems.
But I over time began todiscover and find God and get to
(05:14):
know God and discover that Godreally did love me and really is
good.
But it was a long journey.
But I'm so thankful because Iwent from being a person who was
actually jealous at funerals.
I wouldn't go to funeralsbecause I was jealous that I had
to stay To now.
It's like Lord, give me to 100.
Give me to 120.
I got more to do, so I know howGod can truly, truly transform
(05:39):
a life.
He began with mine, as he haswith so many others, and I just
continue to see God at work,giving people hope,
encouragement and reboot fortheir life as we find him, and
that really was the core.
So I knew from right away thatI needed to study evil, because
that was what I was confrontedwith, and I know I had to
(06:00):
confront it rather than continueto run from it.
Ellen Krause (06:10):
Well, Ingrid, that's one of the things that
just impressed me so much aboutyour writing was just your
willingness to be vulnerable andshare your very personal
stories.
But yet people can relate tothose, and seeing someone else's
hardships and how you've you'vetraversed it, you you've sought
um deeper understanding, andthat really has led to this um
(06:35):
healing aspect of what you'vegone through.
Well, so, to demystify evil, wemust understand what is good.
Right, how would you go aboutdefining what is good?
Ingrid Faro (06:50):
Yeah, and in my studies and talking with people
and even in my own life, Irealized well, in order to
define evil we have to start.
If we want to understand evilfrom a biblical perspective,
from God's perspective, I had tostart with where the Bible
starts, which is with creation,where seven times God looks at
(07:11):
what he had made and says it isgood, and then he just keeps
repeating that so that sevenfoldwe know that's a term, that's
in the Hebrew Bible that reallydraws attention when something
is said or done seven times it'slike pay attention.
And and then also in Genesistwo, where the first command the
(07:33):
first time the word command isused in the Bible Someone had
asked me before I studied it Iwould have thought it said don't
eat from that tree of theknowledge of good and evil.
But the first time the wordcommand, the Lord, god,
commanded, saying of all thetrees in the garden, eat freely.
And so his first command islook at everything I've given
you.
You're lacking nothing.
Enjoy it.
(07:54):
And realizing that God madeeverything good, he made
everything beautiful, he madeeverything abundant, he made
everything flourishing.
In Genesis 1 and 2.
There is no conflict, there'sharmony, there's beautiful,
peace, abundance.
So all these words that becomeassociated with what is good are
(08:15):
things that we can allappreciate.
We know, when we see somethingthat is good and God even gave
things to taste good, to look,to be beautiful, I mean all of
this and he gave uscompanionship.
And so just recognizing thatthat also, god unlike us is
consistent, what God thinks isconsistent with what he says,
(08:39):
which is consistent with what hedoes, and it's consistent with
what he makes.
And you know, we're not quitelike that.
We think one thing, we sayanother, we do another, you know
.
But God wants us to learn whatgoodness is from him, and so I
began to encounter God and hisgoodness and I began to give God
a chance.
That was how I started, justgiving God a chance.
(09:02):
And you know, sometimes whenyou don't trust someone because
you know, for whatever reason,it's been broken.
So I had to start with just alittle bit and as I gave God a
little bit more, began talkingwith him, and even that's in the
process I learned what lamentis being honest with God and
discovery.
I didn't know I could be honestwith God.
I wasn't taught that.
(09:22):
I remember the first time thatI locked myself in my bathroom,
raised my fist I read that yes.
And I started yelling at God.
And then I kind of duckedbecause I was alone in the house
but I'd still lock myself inthe bathroom because I didn't
know if it was allowed.
I was afraid I'd get hit with alightning bolt and be dead in
(09:42):
the morning.
But instead it opened upconversation and God simply
engaged me and I discovered thatGod wanted my honesty, because
that's what a relationship isit's being able to be honest
with somebody, even in the hurtsand the pain and the
disappointments.
And so this over time, more andmore healing came into my life.
(10:05):
So, yeah, it started with justtaking a chance that maybe God
actually was good, even though Istill wasn't convinced, and
then being honest with him andengaging in conversation,
engaging in developing a veryreal relationship, while I was
studying his word, and so God'sword became more and more real
to me.
And as I studied his word,suddenly a little something
(10:30):
would pop out.
You know, I think most of uscan hopefully relate to that.
You're studying something youmight have read many times, but
all of a sudden it pops out andit lights up and it becomes real
.
And I'll just mention one ofthose moments it was you know, I
was still going through somereally, really hard, heavy stuff
and the verse that everybodyknows, even though I walk
(10:52):
through the valley of the shadowof death, I will fear no evil,
for you are with me.
And that kind of you know,dropped into my mind.
I'm thinking, yeah, that's agood verse.
And all of a sudden I justheard the Spirit of God say
don't lay down in the valley ofthe shadow of death, don't set
up camp there.
I am with you to bring youthrough this.
Fear nothing bad.
(11:13):
I was like all of a sudden boomand trust was built a little
bit more.
It's like okay, so it was thisongoing, and that's why the
subtitle biblical and personalexploration, because it was
theologically deep.
So much of my healing was when Iwas deep in studying the Hebrew
(11:34):
and again my dissertation wason evil from the Hebrew text of
the book of Genesis.
So just digging into the Hebrewtext and and so God's word
would come alive and it would,and then it would mingle with my
own story and my own hardshipsand the Lord would bring clarity
.
And so it's just this beautifulmingling of God's word, god's
(11:57):
spirit and God's presence andinforming my mind, presence and
informing my mind.
So you know, one says that'swhy the great Hebrew prayer, you
know, hear, o Israel, the Lord.
God is one.
Love the Lord with all yourheart, with all your soul and
(12:19):
all your strength.
And it's God wants us whole.
And so God gradually moved mefrom what I called a
whack-a-mole theology, because Iused to think every time I
raised my head up, bam, I wasgoing to get.
Because that's what I called awhack-a-mole theology, because I
used to think every time Iraised my head up, bam, I was
going to get, because that'swhat I felt like life had been
like.
And God slowly moved me to ashalom theology, which means
wholeness, completeness,well-being.
And I came to learn that Godwants me whole, integrated,
(12:42):
where my mind, my soul, my heart, my spirit, my body are all
being made whole as they allcome together in him.
So my journey is just.
I have so much hope for anybody.
Ellen Krause (13:00):
You know, I think you've brought a whole new
meaning to the Psalm 23 passage.
Yea, though I walk through thevalley of the shadow of death, I
love, I'm thinking of the wordwalk now and not getting stuck.
Ingrid Faro (13:13):
Yes.
Ellen Krause (13:14):
And I think so often we do get stuck.
Yeah, but that word walk is soimportant.
Yeah, I love that.
You pointed that out.
Ingrid Faro (13:26):
Yes, because we do get stuck.
I was stuck, for I was probablystuck for almost 20 years and
it took taking that chance tomove ahead with God just again,
starting with that little bit oftrust.
And then you know, God justshowing me, but it was, it was
walking with him and walkingthrough that.
(13:46):
He is with me and he did notwant me to be afraid, but he was
with me.
He didn't put me in there, butthat's where I was.
And so each of us findourselves in situations and God
doesn't do evil.
You know, I think in Jameschapter one, God does not do
evil, he doesn't bring evil uponus.
But this world, we were borninto a conflict zone.
(14:10):
We're born into a world at war.
There are forces of evil andthat was something I really had
to grasp, grapple with as well,and that's.
I've got that section.
You know again, I've got thedifferent sections in the book.
And where does evil come from?
You know, where do bad things,how do bad things happen, and
being able to step back and sayokay when something happens.
(14:33):
I love a quote from NT Wright inhis book Evil and the Justice
of God.
He says most of us face evil inthree ways.
First, we don't expect it tohappen.
So, second, when evil happens,it slaps us in the face.
And he said third, therefore,we tend to respond in immature
and dangerous ways.
So yeah, that's not veryflattering, but it's so true,
Because I knee jerked reactionto pretty much everything that
(14:56):
happened.
And and then I would say, Well,I guess I better take care of
this myself, you know, or Iwould just react and make things
worse, and that was that wasthe pattern.
Something bad would happen andI would make it worse, and then
I would blame God for it.
So, yeah, so it's just beingable to take it, take those
breaths, step back and say, okay, God, where are you, when did
(15:20):
this come from, and what's yourstrategy for me to walk through
this and to see good come out ofthis?
And again, the story of Josephhas been so meaningful in my
life because all the horriblethings that happened, to Joseph
at the end he says but thosethings evil happened and he
calls them evil.
(15:41):
The things his brothers did, thethings that Potiphar's wife did
, those were evil.
He had evil things happen,people did evil.
The things his brothers did,the things that Potiphar's wife
did, those were evil.
He had evil things happen,people did evil.
He doesn't call the evil good,he calls it evil.
But he came to a place where hecontinued to trust in God and
saw God turn that.
Take the evil and I call it,untwist it.
(16:03):
You know, take it and turn itinto something good and that
becomes the goal, so that nowwhen evil happens it's like okay
, god, you have something goodthat you want to come out of
this, because evil is not goingto have the last word.
This hurt, this pain, thistrauma, this abuse in my life
with this person that I'mwalking alongside with.
Evil's not going to have thelast word.
This hurt, this pain, thistrauma, this abuse in my life
(16:24):
with this person that I'mwalking alongside with.
Evil's not going to have thelast word.
So it becomes kind of fightingwords.
Ellen Krause (16:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So if anyone's listening, Ihope that you're hearing what
Ingrid did at the very beginning.
If you're in that state rightnow where you're wondering
whether God is good, is goingback to God's word and seeing
what the Bible has to say aboutGod and his character and his
(16:56):
goodness, it's a great place tostart.
Well, on the contrary to whatis good, what is the biblical
definition of evil?
Ingrid Faro (17:07):
Yeah, and of course I wrestled with that to try to
come up with a clear answer.
And from the biblical text, mysimplest answer is that evil is
the corruption of creational andrelational goodness.
So evil is not the absence ofgood.
(17:31):
Evil is not an entity thatexists on its own.
That would be, you know, havingtwo gods basically.
But evil gets its power fromwhat God created good, because
everything God created is good.
So the only way evil can getpower is it takes power from
what was intended, what God madefor good, twists it corrupts it
(17:53):
, pollutes, it turns it adifferent direction and takes
that very force and makes it.
And that is where evil comesfrom.
And it can come from humans, itcan come from spiritual
entities, it can come also justfrom the principle of what I
call action consequence.
Just like a seed has lifeembedded in it, so also words
(18:16):
have life of their own embeddedin the words that we speak.
And Jesus has a parable aboutthat.
He says the sower.
So he talks about sowing seedsand so forth, and his disciples
come and say well, what doesthat mean?
The sower sows the word.
And so he compares it with, youknow, seeds with words.
(18:37):
Words have life in themselves,and we can all relate to that.
Things messages we grew up with, something that somebody said,
whether it was a parent or ateacher, even sometimes a
stranger.
People can say things that getembedded, that take root into
our hearts, where we may believeoh, you'll never be worth
anything, or you're just this,or you're not enough, or
(18:59):
whatever these negative thoughtscan be, you'll never be loved.
That was one that I had come tobelieve, and so these things
can take root and corruptgoodness.
And so, just using the exampleof love, love is the strongest
force in the world.
God is love, and so love has thegreatest potential for good.
(19:22):
We can see that because of thelove of God, because of the love
of God, he sent Jesus Christ todie for our sins, because he so
loved the world.
But somebody can meet someoneand say I love you, and instead
of wanting that love to besomething that's flourishing and
seeing that person you knowhighly valued, greatly esteemed,
(19:43):
and wanting to see God's best,they can say I love you and I
want you for myself, so I'mgoing to take you and you're
going to now be mine, and all ofa sudden it becomes this
twisted, dark thing that we knowhow that can lead to, even to
death.
And so the twisting of the mostpowerful thing, because
everybody wants to be loved.
So someone says, oh, I love youand you believe them, but it's
(20:06):
actually somebody who wants totake from you rather than give.
Then it can become the darkest,most destructive force in the
world, but it gets it from thepower of what God made good and
what God intended for good.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Ellen Krause (20:23):
So I thought it was interesting that one of the
things that you said was thehallmark of evil is the
association between evil andselfishly taking for oneself
without regard for others, orGod.
Yeah, and I was wondering ifmaybe I know you touched on that
(20:46):
, but could you maybe justexpound on that a little bit
more for us?
Ingrid Faro (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, and it's so beautifully laid out in
scripture too.
And when I saw both how it waslaid out, because, again, when
God created, he saw, heevaluated and said it is good,
in the end it is very good.
And then he gave it all tohumanity and said it is good,
you know, in the end it is verygood.
And then he gave it all tohumanity.
(21:12):
But when, in Genesis three,when the serpent came to tempt
the woman and the man who waswith her, it says clearly and
that the woman and man.
So I always like to just make apoint of that, because when the
serpent's talking, he's usingthe plural, you, not the
singular.
So the man and woman, and andhe gets, he gets them to first
of all believe that God iswithholding something good from
(21:32):
them, something that they reallyneed.
Because instead of the firstcommand, where God says of all
the trees in the garden, eatfreely, the servant says didn't
God say you shall not eat of allthe trees of the garden?
So he takes a positive, turnsit into a negative and draws
their attention to the one andonly boundary that God had set
(21:52):
in the garden and says let'slook at that, let's look at the
one thing God said you can'thave and that is actually what
you really need.
And that thing about dyingGod's lying, it's not true.
You're not going to die.
This is what you really need.
So the temptation is to not bethankful.
And when I say that, I think ofRomans 1, when Paul talks about
(22:15):
how God made himself known toall people.
But because they were notthankful in their hearts, they
gave their minds over.
So it's coming in.
Instead of being thankful forwhat God has given us, let's
look at what we don't have, andGod must be withholding it.
And since God is withholdingsomething that I want and I need
(22:37):
and I've come to decide this isreally good, I'm going to take
it for myself.
And so that language.
The woman saw that the tree,and now she's seeing that it's.
It's first of all good for food, when God said it's going to
kill you.
And then she's seeing that youknow, it's delightful.
And now these, it's.
It's using a term that is usedfor for lust, for desire, and
(23:00):
now she's desiring it.
Now it looks desirable to her.
So that's a new, the first time, that word, because it's
there's.
So that's a new the first time,that word because there's a
good desire in Genesis 2, butnow it's a craving, now she
craves, and now it was.
Also the desire was to make herwise.
So then it says so she saw andtook.
And that she saw that it wasgood and took.
(23:24):
Well, god didn't say that itwas good, but she saw from her
perspective.
Oh, she saw that that's goodand she took it for herself.
And the next time we see thatexact same sentence structure is
in Genesis 6, when the sons ofGod see that the daughters of
humanity are good, and it usesthat and took whichever they
(23:45):
wanted.
And again, that was theintroduction to the flood scene.
And so we continue to see thatlanguage of seeing something
that is out of bounds.
David saw Bathsheba and took.
So we see Shechem saw Dinah,Jacob's daughter, and took.
So we see that seeing andtaking, seeing something that
(24:08):
God says this is not for you,this is not yours.
And some of the same languagecomes back.
The language of desire comesback in the 10th commandment
coveting somebody else's wife orproperty or know their fields,
(24:29):
jealousy, where you see and youtake, and that is so core to
corruption, that beginscorruption rather than being
thankful and saying Lord,because God gave us needs and
desires in the garden.
He actually gave us needs anddesires and that was part of his
good creation.
But he wanted us to work withhim, to grow and learn from him,
(24:51):
partner with him to fill ourneeds and desires, and then that
would be good.
So he gave those to us.
But when we go rogue and say no,I think I'm not going to trust
God.
I need this, I want this.
That's the root of all pain,the root of all what I call
(25:14):
commodifying people, where we'reno longer looking at the person
for the valuable person thatGod created them.
But how can this person benefitme?
And that's so much of the world.
How can this thing, how canthis person thing benefit me,
rather than what God wanted usto do is love our neighbor as
(25:34):
ourselves and be like him,wanting to give and do
everything for the good ofcommunity and for the good of
his earth.
Instead, it's like how can Iuse this for me?
Ellen Krause (25:47):
So yeah, that's so core to every temptation,
because it begins with atemptation yeah, would you say
too that it's really so pridetaking a route to saying well,
my way, I think, is best,because I want to go my way.
Ingrid Faro (26:06):
Yeah, yeah, and you're mentioning that.
Yeah, and sorry if I'm talkingtoo much, but I just, you know,
it just is okay, all right.
But that was one of the amazingthings that God showed me was
so often I can do something thatI think is really good.
Oh look, I'm helping thisperson and I may think it's
(26:27):
really good, think is reallygood.
Oh look, I'm helping thisperson and I may think it's
really good.
But if that's not what Godwants me to do, in that, if
that's not what that personactually needs, I may actually
be doing evil, even though itlooks good.
So sometimes you can, you know,just get like what so often?
What happens sometimes inmissions, where you'll just give
them a lot of money and thenthey become dependent on the
(26:48):
money money instead of givingthem so that you know what do
they need to flourish?
You know, do they need a?
Well, do they need?
You know what do they need?
So it's like it's teaching themhow to fish instead of giving
them a fish, and so we can think, oh, I'm doing good, look at
all these fish I'm giving out,but now I may be creating a
(27:08):
worse problem, and so it's like,lord, you show me what you
think is good.
So it's that Ephesians 2, we'reseated with him in heavenly
places.
Lord, how do you see things?
And so?
one of my predominant prayer hasbeen Lord, show me what I need
to know.
How do you see this situation?
So, no matter what it is, howdo you see it?
(27:28):
Help me see it from yourperspective so I can bring your
goodness, not my concept ofwhat's gonna make this better,
because I sometimes my tendencyis to wanna oh, let me go help,
let me help.
And sometimes the Lord may sayno, they need to learn how to
stand up right now, just liketrying to crack the butterfly
(27:52):
out of its cocoon.
It'll never learn to fly.
So you know, that was mecracking open cocoons.
The Lord said stop.
So sometimes we can think we'rereally good as well and we may
actually be doing.
And I had to just say it's.
You know again the biblicaldefinition of evil.
You know not our cultural,because no culture has a
definition of evil, because itchanges with the culture.
(28:14):
You know, we've seen that inour own, you know in the US,
we've seen that around the worldand always people's idea of
what's good and evil changeswith the culture, with shifts.
But God's idea of good is whathe is doing, because what God is
doing will always be for thebest of everybody involved and
his creation.
(28:34):
So yeah so that was being honestwith myself was tough.
Ellen Krause (28:40):
Well, it is for all of us.
But I love that's just such anexcellent, excellent point that
you've asked God in prayer toshow you his vision for things
rather than your own, because,as you pointed out, that can get
us into a lot of trouble.
What we see is good.
(29:01):
Well, what does the Bible sayabout overcoming evil?
Ingrid Faro (29:08):
Yeah, say about overcoming evil.
Yeah, and that's that is we allknow is what's really hard,
because we've, we've allexperienced it.
Yeah, it's just how much, howoften, how early and how long
you know it's, we allexperienced these blows and
sometimes they come as suckerpunch.
Sometimes they're things thatyou know, people have grown up
with and you know, but, um, butevil manifests in so many
(29:31):
different ways and and um, andit can become, uh, we can, we
can be overrun by it and feellike we can't even get up.
You know, run over, backed upwhere it's, don't even try to
get up anymore, and um, and I.
But I believe that the firststep is just to be willing to
face it.
And well, actually, before that, I have to say, the first step
(29:56):
really is just giving God achance that maybe God is good.
Because if we don't believethat there is a God who is
greater than we are and greaterthan our circumstances, that
actually wants to come alongsideus and help us through, that
actually wants goodness in ourlife, that actually wants to
take the evil, no matter howhorrific, and turn it around, if
(30:19):
we can't start with even thatglimmer of hope, we can't do it
on our own.
It's just too hard, and sosometimes it takes somebody
coming alongside.
There's some people that it'slike I can't trust God.
But then sometimes I'll say,well, can you trust me?
And so, okay, hold on to me asI'm holding on to God until I
(30:41):
can connect those hands.
So sometimes we are theintermediary, interceding in the
name of Jesus.
Sometimes we are the only Jesus, that a person, because the
Jesus lives in us, so his powersin us, and so sometimes we have
to believe for the other beforethey can even believe for
themselves.
And that is, you know.
So we, just, wherever we are,we may need to first find
(31:04):
somebody that that we know knowsGod, that we're willing to
trust.
But God, no matter where we areor how beaten down we are, god
wants to take us from where weare and bring us into a place of
goodness and healing, and so ofcourse we come across.
I have a chapter on forgivenessand forgiveness.
We come across.
(31:24):
I have a chapter on forgivenessand forgiveness.
I remember seeing this we knowJesus and his disciples did all
kinds of miracles, you know, andhe told even the 70, go raise
the dead, heal the sick, castout demons, you know, cleanse
the leprosy and everything.
But there's only one time in theGospels when the disciples said
(31:46):
, oh Lord, increase our faith.
And it wasn't for any of that.
It was when they had aconversation about forgiveness
and they said you know, lord?
Well, how many times should Iforgive?
You know, seven times.
And Jesus said, no, 70 times,seven.
That's what they said.
Oh Lord, increase our faith.
I'm like, oh, I understandthose who have wronged us.
(32:07):
And you know we tend to nothave a good understanding of
forgiveness because so oftenpeople throw that word around
like it's you know, oh, justforgive them, like, really Just
forgive them.
God sent his son, jesus Christ,to die on the cross to forgive
us.
So we think it's easy and cheap.
You know it's there.
(32:29):
We think it's easy and cheap,but we have a savior who took
upon himself the evil, and soit's something I'm working on
right now is with a friend, abook on a biblical theology of
forgiveness.
But there are some good thingswritten about forgiveness, but
so often we just throw it around.
But again, forgiveness growingin our relationship with God,
(32:53):
you know, prayer, simply talkingto God.
You know, just taking thosewherever we are, just holding
out our hand and saying, lord,help me.
And one of the classic versesthat runs from the last verse of
Genesis 4.
Throughout Scripture iseveryone who calls on the name
(33:14):
of the Lord will be saved.
And so in Genesis 4, peoplebegan to call upon the name of
the Lord after the fall and Cainand Abel and the chaos that was
happening.
Just calling on the name of theLord, believing that, god, I
need your help.
And sometimes that is where westart.
(33:34):
God does hear our cries forhelp and then it's okay, lord,
what do I need to know?
Help me where I am.
But it's again.
I wish there was a quick, easyanswer, but everybody's journey
is a little bit different, butit does begin with trust.
Usually there's forgivenessinvolved, but you can't just
(33:56):
jump right into it.
But God wants our wholeness.
He came to heal thebrokenhearted.
That was his opening statementwhen he introduced his ministry
in Luke 4, quoting from Isaiah61, the spirit of the Lord, god
is upon, for he has anointed meto proclaim the good news, to
heal the brokenhearted, torelease the captives, set free
(34:18):
the prisoners.
And we can be captive by somany things, we can be
imprisoned by so many things,and medicine can heal a heart
attack, but only God can trulybind up and bring healing to a
broken heart.
But that is the mission ofJesus Christ, that's the mission
he's given us in this world tobring him to be his, his, his,
(34:42):
co-partners in bringing hishealing to the brokenhearted and
setting captives free.
Ellen Krause (34:49):
That's so, so encouraging.
You know, one thing that justcame to my mind when you were
saying that is just the reminder, too, that Christ died for all
of us, and our pastor right nowis doing a special series on
Moses and the Exodus, and itjust reminds me of when they
(35:12):
left the Exodus.
It wasn't just the Jewishpeople left, that went right.
They called on the name of theLord, some of the Egyptians.
So I just think that that'sreally encouraging too.
If you're listening to this andmaybe you're being so hard on
(35:33):
yourself that God does not want,saved Everyone who wants to
call on the name of the Lord andbe saved.
Ingrid Faro (35:48):
Yeah, and thanks so much for bringing up the fact.
Some who think that they're notworthy or not good enough, or
that they you know that it'slike no, god doesn't want me.
Thank you for bringing that up,because there are those who do
feel like they're outside,beyond help.
Yeah.
Ellen Krause (36:07):
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (36:09):
So the Exodus story is thanks for oh, that's
beautiful.
Ellen Krause (36:13):
Well, Ingrid, throughout the book, you know
you're just so genuine insharing your personal testimony.
What was the impact of writingthis book on your own life and
how can this book help otherswho are wrestling with life's
hardships?
Yeah, thanks.
Ingrid Faro (36:35):
It's this, and I published my dissertation, but
that was academic.
And I published my dissertation, but that was academic.
But I had been doing a lot ofspeaking in different groups and
even in different countries andso forth about abuse and trauma
(36:58):
and the things that God hadshowed me.
I had a responsibility to sharewhat God had taught me and I
could see how it was helpingother people, and so I already
had this network of people whowere working through and
rediscovering God's goodness,and so it's been such an
encouragement to people I don'tknow sending me emails or
(37:20):
finding me on.
Facebook or you know, invitingme into a Zoom call because
they're having a Bible study,you know?
Ellen Krause (37:25):
so in different ways.
Ingrid Faro (37:27):
So I've been able to, and even in my own church,
you know, just sharing withpeople with different you know
from many different situations,who are just seeing God
differently.
And that's for me is, you know,when someone comes up and says
this has changed my life,because the core is they're
seeing God differently.
And that's for me is, you know,when someone comes up and says
this has changed my life,because the core is they're
seeing God differently andthey're having hope Because they
(37:50):
so many had been taught thatyou know well, this was God's
will for your life or something,and and they so they had no
hope, or you know, you're beyondhelp, or all the lies that they
had come to believe.
And so I think the biggestthing is just that opportunity
to taste.
It might just be that firsttaste of goodness that you've
had a long time.
(38:11):
And I remember one woman who hadcome to a woman's retreat and
she had come with her daughterand it was a full weekend and at
the end she came up and shesaid I haven't been to church in
20 years and she said because Isinned.
And so I was told that you know,I was dirty and you know so she
(38:32):
had quit, she hadn't been tochurch in 20 years and I saw her
again a year later and shelooked like a completely
different person.
She had embraced the goodnessof God, she had embraced
forgiveness and she was justalive and she was part.
You know, she was infellowshipping with people in
church and just this vibrant,you know.
(38:52):
So when you get to see peoplewhose lives are changed and I
just like mine, I mean I'm anencouragement, you know, as I
put in there.
You know, my first was studyingto be a pastor, had a third of
the New Testament memorized, buthe was unfaithful and violent
and I didn't escape until afterhe tried to kill me and I had
been taught, you know, never sayanything bad, you know.
(39:14):
And so that was just forstarters, you know.
But you know other things thathad happened.
So it's, it's giving people hopeyou know we'd talk about
suicide and and so many of thereally hard issues.
But um and, and we can, we canbelieve that God did it.
Uh, and so it's.
It's also, uh, some of it isjust inviting people to give God
(39:40):
and themselves another chance,to give life and goodness
another chance that life can begood.
And it may take a while, it maytake some courage, but I love
the definition I put in therefrom courage is not the lack of
fear, but it's taking action inthe face of fear, and so it's
(40:00):
like all right, you know,courage doesn't look like, you
know just running in.
Sometimes it looks like kneesknocking and like I don't know.
You know that was how I started.
Ellen Krause (40:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
For a long time I had taped onmy computer the passage from
Second Timothy, for God has notgiven us a spirit of fear, but
of power and love and sound mind.
And that just always encouragedme that if I'm experiencing
fear, it's not from God, andthat his love and his caring,
(40:34):
his being near and with us atall times should help put some
of that anxiety at bay.
Yes Well, Ingrid, how canpeople find out more information
about you and the book?
Ingrid Faro (40:54):
Thank you.
It's on Amazon or most, I thinkit's on pretty much all
Christian outlets of books aswell.
I do have a website just myname, ingridfaro.
com, so, and you know.
So, yeah, I can be.
I can be found.
(41:15):
I'm also Northern Seminary.
You can also find me at it'sjust seminaryedu, and so also
YouTube.
They've got different videos ofme speaking on various topics
as well.
You can just put in my nameAwesome.
Ellen Krause (41:32):
Well, we will include all of those links in
our show notes for sure.
So people can find them easilyand quickly.
Before we go, Ingrid, I have toask you some of our favorite
Bible study tool questions.
I'm sure you have many Bibles,but what Bible is your go-to
Bible and what translation is?
Ingrid Faro (41:51):
it.
Yeah, you know it was funny.
I listened to your interviewwith Sandra Richter.
I was like well, that's myanswer too, because I love the
NIV.
When I'm speaking I usually usethe NIV because it reads more
beautifully and so forth.
But for my personal study I douse the NASB because it is
wooden and, as she mentioned,also because I can see the
language behind it.
(42:12):
So I still tend to use that.
I do like the NRSV, you know,sometimes I'll use that,
depending on what I'm writing,and the Lexham English Bible.
Sometimes I'll use that,depending on what I'm writing,
and the Lexham English Bible.
Sometimes I'll use that.
So sometimes I'll look,especially if I'm writing or if
I'm going to be speaking.
I'll look at some differentversions, but I tend, you know,
but my main go-to is still theNIV and the NASB.
(42:35):
You know, and I keep looking atothers and you know there's a
lot of great translations outthere, but it's yeah that's what
I tend to use.
Ellen Krause (42:48):
Okay, awesome.
Do you have any favoritejournaling supplies or anything
you like to use to enhance yourBible?
Ingrid Faro (42:51):
study experience.
Yeah Well, for myself, I useLogos and you can get an intro
package in Logos which is, youknow, relatively inexpensive but
there are so many free.
So for my students who don't,who aren't going to be studying
Greek or Hebrew, or people whojust want to have, you know,
enhance their tools, there's theStep Bible Bible Hub.
(43:12):
You can pull up an interlinearand see for each word, what is
the Greek and Hebrew word, bothin the original language and
transliterated, and then thatwill link you to Strong's and a
few other lexicons and so forth.
So you can do a little bit morein Bible Hub.
I use Bible Gateway just if Iwant to look at, check different
translations.
Step Bible what else?
(43:35):
Those are a few of the ones.
The Blue Letter Bible also.
So, again, these are some ofthe free online resources.
A great book if you're juststudying.
There are two other resourcesthat I also.
There's the book how to Readthe Bible for All it's Worth.
That's great.
You know particular book of theBible and it gives you a great
overview.
(43:55):
And they also do some wordstudies and they've got such
excellent scholarship.
They, you know they're, they'reit's just solid in the biblical
(44:16):
languages and so forth.
So those are again some of mymy favorite resources.
Ellen Krause (44:19):
OK, that's so awesome.
My favorite resources Okay,that's so awesome.
Well, ingrid, thank you so muchfor being here and just being
willing to share your insights.
Your exploration into thisdifficult topic has really given
us a lot to think about, andit's just so encouraging to each
and every one of us.
It gives us hope in the face ofevil.
Ingrid Faro (44:41):
Yeah, thank you, thanks.
So good to thank you forletting me share Absolutely.
Ellen Krause (44:48):
And for our listeners.
I just want to encourage you topick up a copy of Ingrid's book
Demystifying Evil.
Her book goes into an even muchdeeper understanding of the
presence of evil and how we canrespond with faith.
I will make sure we have thatlinked in the show notes.
We love you all.
We appreciate you listening.
(45:10):
Have a blessed day.
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast, o ur goal is
to help you delight in God'sWord and thrive in Christian
living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the Coffee andBible Time podcast.
This is Ellen, your host.
Evil is something that shakes us.
It can leave us feeling lost,broken and without hope.
Leave us feeling lost, brokenand without hope.
(00:49):
We've all felt its sting andit's easy to wonder how we are
supposed to respond to it.
In this episode, we are blessedto be joined by Ingrid Faro,
author of the book DemystifyingEvil a biblical and personal
exploration.
Ingrid dives deep into the Bible, history and her own painful
experiences to show that, whileevil is real, it doesn't get the
(01:11):
final word.
We need to acknowledge thereality of evil and then look to
the biblical story for guidance.
It's also important to reflecton our own lives and recognize
the ways we might be unknowinglycolluding with it.
If we let evil have its way, itcan divide us from each other
(01:34):
and God.
It distorts our perspective andleads us to despair.
Tempting us to accept its poweris final, and that simply is
not true.
Ingrid Faro is professor of OldTestament and coordinator of
the Masters in Old TestamentJerusalem University College
program.
Ingrid is an author andinternational speaker on topics
(01:59):
including deconstructing evil,navigating suffering,
forgiveness, lament, abuse,forgiveness, lament Abuse and
Power Dynamics, women in theBible and Ministry, genesis and
Ecclesiastes.
In addition to DemystifyingEvil, Ingrid is also the author
of Evil in Genesis and co-authorof Honest Answer.
(02:21):
Please welcome Ingrid.
Ingrid Faro (02:24):
Thanks.
It's so good to be with you,Ellen.
Thank you.
Ellen Krause (02:28):
Well, it's such a joy and I want my listeners to
know that you've come on thehighest of recommendations from
a dear mentor of mine andsomeone that you know as well.
So, Belinda, thank you for therecommendation and welcome,
Ingrid, thank you.
(02:49):
Well, Ingrid, I thought wewould just maybe start out by
having you tell us a little bitabout your personal story and
why you chose to do biblicalresearch on evil.
Ingrid Faro (03:03):
Yeah, thank you.
The whole reason I startedstudying theology was because of
the hardships, the abuse, thetrauma that I had been through
in my personal life over acouple of decades or so, and I
had so many questions.
I didn't know anymore if Godwas good, I didn't know if I
could trust him, I didn't knowif he loved me, I didn't know if
(03:25):
he was just, and I didn't wantto go back to church because I
had experienced a lot of hurtsfrom pastors there, and so it
was a tough place to be in.
And I had come to a point where, for a couple of years, with
the only reason that I knew Istill believed in God was I knew
I had come to a point where,for a couple of years, with the
(03:45):
only reason that I knew I stillbelieved in God was I knew I had
encountered God before.
I knew I had encountered Jesus'love and forgiveness.
So I knew I couldn't throw Godout.
But I was just wounded, and Icertainly know many, many, many
people who are in that situation, and that's certainly where I
(04:05):
was.
And so what I did?
I had thrown myself into work,I was in the business world and
I just became a workaholic, so Ididn't have to hear what I was
thinking or feel what I wasfeeling, as long as I could just
keep plowing ahead, get up andthrow myself into work and see
some success there that had cometo satisfy me until I worked
(04:27):
myself into a disability andsuddenly I was faced with having
to sit still.
And it was during that time Godgot hold of me and there was a
point where I knew God spoke tome and had spoken to my heart
saying you go get answers foryourself out of scripture.
Had spoken to my heart sayingyou go get answers for yourself
(04:47):
out of scripture and for you andthis is my insert inserting
because I was so hardheaded andGod knew me, he also knew the
plans for me.
He said for you, go get answersfrom the Greek and the Hebrew.
So I started studying theologyquite a bit later in life and
just continued to study and lifekept having problems.
But I over time began todiscover and find God and get to
(05:14):
know God and discover that Godreally did love me and really is
good.
But it was a long journey.
But I'm so thankful because Iwent from being a person who was
actually jealous at funerals.
I wouldn't go to funeralsbecause I was jealous that I had
to stay To now.
It's like Lord, give me to 100.
Give me to 120.
I got more to do, so I know howGod can truly, truly transform
(05:39):
a life.
He began with mine, as he haswith so many others, and I just
continue to see God at work,giving people hope,
encouragement and reboot fortheir life as we find him, and
that really was the core.
So I knew from right away thatI needed to study evil, because
that was what I was confrontedwith, and I know I had to
(06:00):
confront it rather than continueto run from it.
Ellen Krause (06:10):
Well, Ingrid, that's one of the things that
just impressed me so much aboutyour writing was just your
willingness to be vulnerable andshare your very personal
stories.
But yet people can relate tothose, and seeing someone else's
hardships and how you've you'vetraversed it, you you've sought
um deeper understanding, andthat really has led to this um
(06:35):
healing aspect of what you'vegone through.
Well, so, to demystify evil, wemust understand what is good.
Right, how would you go aboutdefining what is good?
Ingrid Faro (06:50):
Yeah, and in my studies and talking with people
and even in my own life, Irealized well, in order to
define evil we have to start.
If we want to understand evilfrom a biblical perspective,
from God's perspective, I had tostart with where the Bible
starts, which is with creation,where seven times God looks at
(07:11):
what he had made and says it isgood, and then he just keeps
repeating that so that sevenfoldwe know that's a term, that's
in the Hebrew Bible that reallydraws attention when something
is said or done seven times it'slike pay attention.
And and then also in Genesistwo, where the first command the
(07:33):
first time the word command isused in the Bible Someone had
asked me before I studied it Iwould have thought it said don't
eat from that tree of theknowledge of good and evil.
But the first time the wordcommand, the Lord, god,
commanded, saying of all thetrees in the garden, eat freely.
And so his first command islook at everything I've given
you.
You're lacking nothing.
Enjoy it.
(07:54):
And realizing that God madeeverything good, he made
everything beautiful, he madeeverything abundant, he made
everything flourishing.
In Genesis 1 and 2.
There is no conflict, there'sharmony, there's beautiful,
peace, abundance.
So all these words that becomeassociated with what is good are
(08:15):
things that we can allappreciate.
We know, when we see somethingthat is good and God even gave
things to taste good, to look,to be beautiful, I mean all of
this and he gave uscompanionship.
And so just recognizing thatthat also, god unlike us is
consistent, what God thinks isconsistent with what he says,
(08:39):
which is consistent with what hedoes, and it's consistent with
what he makes.
And you know, we're not quitelike that.
We think one thing, we sayanother, we do another, you know
.
But God wants us to learn whatgoodness is from him, and so I
began to encounter God and hisgoodness and I began to give God
a chance.
That was how I started, justgiving God a chance.
(09:02):
And you know, sometimes whenyou don't trust someone because
you know, for whatever reason,it's been broken.
So I had to start with just alittle bit and as I gave God a
little bit more, began talkingwith him, and even that's in the
process I learned what lamentis being honest with God and
discovery.
I didn't know I could be honestwith God.
I wasn't taught that.
(09:22):
I remember the first time thatI locked myself in my bathroom,
raised my fist I read that yes.
And I started yelling at God.
And then I kind of duckedbecause I was alone in the house
but I'd still lock myself inthe bathroom because I didn't
know if it was allowed.
I was afraid I'd get hit with alightning bolt and be dead in
(09:42):
the morning.
But instead it opened upconversation and God simply
engaged me and I discovered thatGod wanted my honesty, because
that's what a relationship isit's being able to be honest
with somebody, even in the hurtsand the pain and the
disappointments.
And so this over time, more andmore healing came into my life.
(10:05):
So, yeah, it started with justtaking a chance that maybe God
actually was good, even though Istill wasn't convinced, and
then being honest with him andengaging in conversation,
engaging in developing a veryreal relationship, while I was
studying his word, and so God'sword became more and more real
to me.
And as I studied his word,suddenly a little something
(10:30):
would pop out.
You know, I think most of uscan hopefully relate to that.
You're studying something youmight have read many times, but
all of a sudden it pops out andit lights up and it becomes real
.
And I'll just mention one ofthose moments it was you know, I
was still going through somereally, really hard, heavy stuff
and the verse that everybodyknows, even though I walk
(10:52):
through the valley of the shadowof death, I will fear no evil,
for you are with me.
And that kind of you know,dropped into my mind.
I'm thinking, yeah, that's agood verse.
And all of a sudden I justheard the Spirit of God say
don't lay down in the valley ofthe shadow of death, don't set
up camp there.
I am with you to bring youthrough this.
Fear nothing bad.
(11:13):
I was like all of a sudden boomand trust was built a little
bit more.
It's like okay, so it was thisongoing, and that's why the
subtitle biblical and personalexploration, because it was
theologically deep.
So much of my healing was when Iwas deep in studying the Hebrew
(11:34):
and again my dissertation wason evil from the Hebrew text of
the book of Genesis.
So just digging into the Hebrewtext and and so God's word
would come alive and it would,and then it would mingle with my
own story and my own hardshipsand the Lord would bring clarity
.
And so it's just this beautifulmingling of God's word, god's
(11:57):
spirit and God's presence andinforming my mind, presence and
informing my mind.
So you know, one says that'swhy the great Hebrew prayer, you
know, hear, o Israel, the Lord.
God is one.
Love the Lord with all yourheart, with all your soul and
(12:19):
all your strength.
And it's God wants us whole.
And so God gradually moved mefrom what I called a
whack-a-mole theology, because Iused to think every time I
raised my head up, bam, I wasgoing to get.
Because that's what I called awhack-a-mole theology, because I
used to think every time Iraised my head up, bam, I was
going to get, because that'swhat I felt like life had been
like.
And God slowly moved me to ashalom theology, which means
wholeness, completeness,well-being.
And I came to learn that Godwants me whole, integrated,
(12:42):
where my mind, my soul, my heart, my spirit, my body are all
being made whole as they allcome together in him.
So my journey is just.
I have so much hope for anybody.
Ellen Krause (13:00):
You know, I think you've brought a whole new
meaning to the Psalm 23 passage.
Yea, though I walk through thevalley of the shadow of death, I
love, I'm thinking of the wordwalk now and not getting stuck.
Ingrid Faro (13:13):
Yes.
Ellen Krause (13:14):
And I think so often we do get stuck.
Yeah, but that word walk is soimportant.
Yeah, I love that.
You pointed that out.
Ingrid Faro (13:26):
Yes, because we do get stuck.
I was stuck, for I was probablystuck for almost 20 years and
it took taking that chance tomove ahead with God just again,
starting with that little bit oftrust.
And then you know, God justshowing me, but it was, it was
walking with him and walkingthrough that.
(13:46):
He is with me and he did notwant me to be afraid, but he was
with me.
He didn't put me in there, butthat's where I was.
And so each of us findourselves in situations and God
doesn't do evil.
You know, I think in Jameschapter one, God does not do
evil, he doesn't bring evil uponus.
But this world, we were borninto a conflict zone.
(14:10):
We're born into a world at war.
There are forces of evil andthat was something I really had
to grasp, grapple with as well,and that's.
I've got that section.
You know again, I've got thedifferent sections in the book.
And where does evil come from?
You know, where do bad things,how do bad things happen, and
being able to step back and sayokay when something happens.
(14:33):
I love a quote from NT Wright inhis book Evil and the Justice
of God.
He says most of us face evil inthree ways.
First, we don't expect it tohappen.
So, second, when evil happens,it slaps us in the face.
And he said third, therefore,we tend to respond in immature
and dangerous ways.
So yeah, that's not veryflattering, but it's so true,
Because I knee jerked reactionto pretty much everything that
(14:56):
happened.
And and then I would say, Well,I guess I better take care of
this myself, you know, or Iwould just react and make things
worse, and that was that wasthe pattern.
Something bad would happen andI would make it worse, and then
I would blame God for it.
So, yeah, so it's just beingable to take it, take those
breaths, step back and say, okay, God, where are you, when did
(15:20):
this come from, and what's yourstrategy for me to walk through
this and to see good come out ofthis?
And again, the story of Josephhas been so meaningful in my
life because all the horriblethings that happened, to Joseph
at the end he says but thosethings evil happened and he
calls them evil.
(15:41):
The things his brothers did, thethings that Potiphar's wife did
, those were evil.
He had evil things happen,people did evil.
The things his brothers did,the things that Potiphar's wife
did, those were evil.
He had evil things happen,people did evil.
He doesn't call the evil good,he calls it evil.
But he came to a place where hecontinued to trust in God and
saw God turn that.
Take the evil and I call it,untwist it.
(16:03):
You know, take it and turn itinto something good and that
becomes the goal, so that nowwhen evil happens it's like okay
, god, you have something goodthat you want to come out of
this, because evil is not goingto have the last word.
This hurt, this pain, thistrauma, this abuse in my life
with this person that I'mwalking alongside with.
Evil's not going to have thelast word.
This hurt, this pain, thistrauma, this abuse in my life
(16:24):
with this person that I'mwalking alongside with.
Evil's not going to have thelast word.
So it becomes kind of fightingwords.
Ellen Krause (16:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So if anyone's listening, Ihope that you're hearing what
Ingrid did at the very beginning.
If you're in that state rightnow where you're wondering
whether God is good, is goingback to God's word and seeing
what the Bible has to say aboutGod and his character and his
(16:56):
goodness, it's a great place tostart.
Well, on the contrary to whatis good, what is the biblical
definition of evil?
Ingrid Faro (17:07):
Yeah, and of course I wrestled with that to try to
come up with a clear answer.
And from the biblical text, mysimplest answer is that evil is
the corruption of creational andrelational goodness.
So evil is not the absence ofgood.
(17:31):
Evil is not an entity thatexists on its own.
That would be, you know, havingtwo gods basically.
But evil gets its power fromwhat God created good, because
everything God created is good.
So the only way evil can getpower is it takes power from
what was intended, what God madefor good, twists it corrupts it
(17:53):
, pollutes, it turns it adifferent direction and takes
that very force and makes it.
And that is where evil comesfrom.
And it can come from humans, itcan come from spiritual
entities, it can come also justfrom the principle of what I
call action consequence.
Just like a seed has lifeembedded in it, so also words
(18:16):
have life of their own embeddedin the words that we speak.
And Jesus has a parable aboutthat.
He says the sower.
So he talks about sowing seedsand so forth, and his disciples
come and say well, what doesthat mean?
The sower sows the word.
And so he compares it with, youknow, seeds with words.
(18:37):
Words have life in themselves,and we can all relate to that.
Things messages we grew up with, something that somebody said,
whether it was a parent or ateacher, even sometimes a
stranger.
People can say things that getembedded, that take root into
our hearts, where we may believeoh, you'll never be worth
anything, or you're just this,or you're not enough, or
(18:59):
whatever these negative thoughtscan be, you'll never be loved.
That was one that I had come tobelieve, and so these things
can take root and corruptgoodness.
And so, just using the exampleof love, love is the strongest
force in the world.
God is love, and so love has thegreatest potential for good.
(19:22):
We can see that because of thelove of God, because of the love
of God, he sent Jesus Christ todie for our sins, because he so
loved the world.
But somebody can meet someoneand say I love you, and instead
of wanting that love to besomething that's flourishing and
seeing that person you knowhighly valued, greatly esteemed,
(19:43):
and wanting to see God's best,they can say I love you and I
want you for myself, so I'mgoing to take you and you're
going to now be mine, and all ofa sudden it becomes this
twisted, dark thing that we knowhow that can lead to, even to
death.
And so the twisting of the mostpowerful thing, because
everybody wants to be loved.
So someone says, oh, I love youand you believe them, but it's
(20:06):
actually somebody who wants totake from you rather than give.
Then it can become the darkest,most destructive force in the
world, but it gets it from thepower of what God made good and
what God intended for good.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Ellen Krause (20:23):
So I thought it was interesting that one of the
things that you said was thehallmark of evil is the
association between evil andselfishly taking for oneself
without regard for others, orGod.
Yeah, and I was wondering ifmaybe I know you touched on that
(20:46):
, but could you maybe justexpound on that a little bit
more for us?
Ingrid Faro (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, and it's so beautifully laid out in
scripture too.
And when I saw both how it waslaid out, because, again, when
God created, he saw, heevaluated and said it is good,
in the end it is very good.
And then he gave it all tohumanity and said it is good,
you know, in the end it is verygood.
And then he gave it all tohumanity.
(21:12):
But when, in Genesis three,when the serpent came to tempt
the woman and the man who waswith her, it says clearly and
that the woman and man.
So I always like to just make apoint of that, because when the
serpent's talking, he's usingthe plural, you, not the
singular.
So the man and woman, and andhe gets, he gets them to first
of all believe that God iswithholding something good from
(21:32):
them, something that they reallyneed.
Because instead of the firstcommand, where God says of all
the trees in the garden, eatfreely, the servant says didn't
God say you shall not eat of allthe trees of the garden?
So he takes a positive, turnsit into a negative and draws
their attention to the one andonly boundary that God had set
(21:52):
in the garden and says let'slook at that, let's look at the
one thing God said you can'thave and that is actually what
you really need.
And that thing about dyingGod's lying, it's not true.
You're not going to die.
This is what you really need.
So the temptation is to not bethankful.
And when I say that, I think ofRomans 1, when Paul talks about
(22:15):
how God made himself known toall people.
But because they were notthankful in their hearts, they
gave their minds over.
So it's coming in.
Instead of being thankful forwhat God has given us, let's
look at what we don't have, andGod must be withholding it.
And since God is withholdingsomething that I want and I need
(22:37):
and I've come to decide this isreally good, I'm going to take
it for myself.
And so that language.
The woman saw that the tree,and now she's seeing that it's.
It's first of all good for food, when God said it's going to
kill you.
And then she's seeing that youknow, it's delightful.
And now these, it's.
It's using a term that is usedfor for lust, for desire, and
(23:00):
now she's desiring it.
Now it looks desirable to her.
So that's a new, the first time, that word, because it's
there's.
So that's a new the first time,that word because there's a
good desire in Genesis 2, butnow it's a craving, now she
craves, and now it was.
Also the desire was to make herwise.
So then it says so she saw andtook.
And that she saw that it wasgood and took.
(23:24):
Well, god didn't say that itwas good, but she saw from her
perspective.
Oh, she saw that that's goodand she took it for herself.
And the next time we see thatexact same sentence structure is
in Genesis 6, when the sons ofGod see that the daughters of
humanity are good, and it usesthat and took whichever they
(23:45):
wanted.
And again, that was theintroduction to the flood scene.
And so we continue to see thatlanguage of seeing something
that is out of bounds.
David saw Bathsheba and took.
So we see Shechem saw Dinah,Jacob's daughter, and took.
So we see that seeing andtaking, seeing something that
(24:08):
God says this is not for you,this is not yours.
And some of the same languagecomes back.
The language of desire comesback in the 10th commandment
coveting somebody else's wife orproperty or know their fields,
(24:29):
jealousy, where you see and youtake, and that is so core to
corruption, that beginscorruption rather than being
thankful and saying Lord,because God gave us needs and
desires in the garden.
He actually gave us needs anddesires and that was part of his
good creation.
But he wanted us to work withhim, to grow and learn from him,
(24:51):
partner with him to fill ourneeds and desires, and then that
would be good.
So he gave those to us.
But when we go rogue and say no,I think I'm not going to trust
God.
I need this, I want this.
That's the root of all pain,the root of all what I call
(25:14):
commodifying people, where we'reno longer looking at the person
for the valuable person thatGod created them.
But how can this person benefitme?
And that's so much of the world.
How can this thing, how canthis person thing benefit me,
rather than what God wanted usto do is love our neighbor as
(25:34):
ourselves and be like him,wanting to give and do
everything for the good ofcommunity and for the good of
his earth.
Instead, it's like how can Iuse this for me?
Ellen Krause (25:47):
So yeah, that's so core to every temptation,
because it begins with atemptation yeah, would you say
too that it's really so pridetaking a route to saying well,
my way, I think, is best,because I want to go my way.
Ingrid Faro (26:06):
Yeah, yeah, and you're mentioning that.
Yeah, and sorry if I'm talkingtoo much, but I just, you know,
it just is okay, all right.
But that was one of the amazingthings that God showed me was
so often I can do something thatI think is really good.
Oh look, I'm helping thisperson and I may think it's
(26:27):
really good, think is reallygood.
Oh look, I'm helping thisperson and I may think it's
really good.
But if that's not what Godwants me to do, in that, if
that's not what that personactually needs, I may actually
be doing evil, even though itlooks good.
So sometimes you can, you know,just get like what so often?
What happens sometimes inmissions, where you'll just give
them a lot of money and thenthey become dependent on the
(26:48):
money money instead of givingthem so that you know what do
they need to flourish?
You know, do they need a?
Well, do they need?
You know what do they need?
So it's like it's teaching themhow to fish instead of giving
them a fish, and so we can think, oh, I'm doing good, look at
all these fish I'm giving out,but now I may be creating a
(27:08):
worse problem, and so it's like,lord, you show me what you
think is good.
So it's that Ephesians 2, we'reseated with him in heavenly
places.
Lord, how do you see things?
And so?
one of my predominant prayer hasbeen Lord, show me what I need
to know.
How do you see this situation?
So, no matter what it is, howdo you see it?
(27:28):
Help me see it from yourperspective so I can bring your
goodness, not my concept ofwhat's gonna make this better,
because I sometimes my tendencyis to wanna oh, let me go help,
let me help.
And sometimes the Lord may sayno, they need to learn how to
stand up right now, just liketrying to crack the butterfly
(27:52):
out of its cocoon.
It'll never learn to fly.
So you know, that was mecracking open cocoons.
The Lord said stop.
So sometimes we can think we'rereally good as well and we may
actually be doing.
And I had to just say it's.
You know again the biblicaldefinition of evil.
You know not our cultural,because no culture has a
definition of evil, because itchanges with the culture.
(28:14):
You know, we've seen that inour own, you know in the US,
we've seen that around the worldand always people's idea of
what's good and evil changeswith the culture, with shifts.
But God's idea of good is whathe is doing, because what God is
doing will always be for thebest of everybody involved and
his creation.
(28:34):
So yeah so that was being honestwith myself was tough.
Ellen Krause (28:40):
Well, it is for all of us.
But I love that's just such anexcellent, excellent point that
you've asked God in prayer toshow you his vision for things
rather than your own, because,as you pointed out, that can get
us into a lot of trouble.
What we see is good.
(29:01):
Well, what does the Bible sayabout overcoming evil?
Ingrid Faro (29:08):
Yeah, say about overcoming evil.
Yeah, and that's that is we allknow is what's really hard,
because we've, we've allexperienced it.
Yeah, it's just how much, howoften, how early and how long
you know it's, we allexperienced these blows and
sometimes they come as suckerpunch.
Sometimes they're things thatyou know, people have grown up
with and you know, but, um, butevil manifests in so many
(29:31):
different ways and and um, andit can become, uh, we can, we
can be overrun by it and feellike we can't even get up.
You know, run over, backed upwhere it's, don't even try to
get up anymore, and um, and I.
But I believe that the firststep is just to be willing to
face it.
And well, actually, before that, I have to say, the first step
(29:56):
really is just giving God achance that maybe God is good.
Because if we don't believethat there is a God who is
greater than we are and greaterthan our circumstances, that
actually wants to come alongsideus and help us through, that
actually wants goodness in ourlife, that actually wants to
take the evil, no matter howhorrific, and turn it around, if
(30:19):
we can't start with even thatglimmer of hope, we can't do it
on our own.
It's just too hard, and sosometimes it takes somebody
coming alongside.
There's some people that it'slike I can't trust God.
But then sometimes I'll say,well, can you trust me?
And so, okay, hold on to me asI'm holding on to God until I
(30:41):
can connect those hands.
So sometimes we are theintermediary, interceding in the
name of Jesus.
Sometimes we are the only Jesus, that a person, because the
Jesus lives in us, so his powersin us, and so sometimes we have
to believe for the other beforethey can even believe for
themselves.
And that is, you know.
So we, just, wherever we are,we may need to first find
(31:04):
somebody that that we know knowsGod, that we're willing to
trust.
But God, no matter where we areor how beaten down we are, god
wants to take us from where weare and bring us into a place of
goodness and healing, and so ofcourse we come across.
I have a chapter on forgivenessand forgiveness.
We come across.
(31:24):
I have a chapter on forgivenessand forgiveness.
I remember seeing this we knowJesus and his disciples did all
kinds of miracles, you know, andhe told even the 70, go raise
the dead, heal the sick, castout demons, you know, cleanse
the leprosy and everything.
But there's only one time in theGospels when the disciples said
(31:46):
, oh Lord, increase our faith.
And it wasn't for any of that.
It was when they had aconversation about forgiveness
and they said you know, lord?
Well, how many times should Iforgive?
You know, seven times.
And Jesus said, no, 70 times,seven.
That's what they said.
Oh Lord, increase our faith.
I'm like, oh, I understandthose who have wronged us.
(32:07):
And you know we tend to nothave a good understanding of
forgiveness because so oftenpeople throw that word around
like it's you know, oh, justforgive them, like, really Just
forgive them.
God sent his son, jesus Christ,to die on the cross to forgive
us.
So we think it's easy and cheap.
You know it's there.
(32:29):
We think it's easy and cheap,but we have a savior who took
upon himself the evil, and soit's something I'm working on
right now is with a friend, abook on a biblical theology of
forgiveness.
But there are some good thingswritten about forgiveness, but
so often we just throw it around.
But again, forgiveness growingin our relationship with God,
(32:53):
you know, prayer, simply talkingto God.
You know, just taking thosewherever we are, just holding
out our hand and saying, lord,help me.
And one of the classic versesthat runs from the last verse of
Genesis 4.
Throughout Scripture iseveryone who calls on the name
(33:14):
of the Lord will be saved.
And so in Genesis 4, peoplebegan to call upon the name of
the Lord after the fall and Cainand Abel and the chaos that was
happening.
Just calling on the name of theLord, believing that, god, I
need your help.
And sometimes that is where westart.
(33:34):
God does hear our cries forhelp and then it's okay, lord,
what do I need to know?
Help me where I am.
But it's again.
I wish there was a quick, easyanswer, but everybody's journey
is a little bit different, butit does begin with trust.
Usually there's forgivenessinvolved, but you can't just
(33:56):
jump right into it.
But God wants our wholeness.
He came to heal thebrokenhearted.
That was his opening statementwhen he introduced his ministry
in Luke 4, quoting from Isaiah61, the spirit of the Lord, god
is upon, for he has anointed meto proclaim the good news, to
heal the brokenhearted, torelease the captives, set free
(34:18):
the prisoners.
And we can be captive by somany things, we can be
imprisoned by so many things,and medicine can heal a heart
attack, but only God can trulybind up and bring healing to a
broken heart.
But that is the mission ofJesus Christ, that's the mission
he's given us in this world tobring him to be his, his, his,
(34:42):
co-partners in bringing hishealing to the brokenhearted and
setting captives free.
Ellen Krause (34:49):
That's so, so encouraging.
You know, one thing that justcame to my mind when you were
saying that is just the reminder, too, that Christ died for all
of us, and our pastor right nowis doing a special series on
Moses and the Exodus, and itjust reminds me of when they
(35:12):
left the Exodus.
It wasn't just the Jewishpeople left, that went right.
They called on the name of theLord, some of the Egyptians.
So I just think that that'sreally encouraging too.
If you're listening to this andmaybe you're being so hard on
(35:33):
yourself that God does not want,saved Everyone who wants to
call on the name of the Lord andbe saved.
Ingrid Faro (35:48):
Yeah, and thanks so much for bringing up the fact.
Some who think that they're notworthy or not good enough, or
that they you know that it'slike no, god doesn't want me.
Thank you for bringing that up,because there are those who do
feel like they're outside,beyond help.
Yeah.
Ellen Krause (36:07):
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (36:09):
So the Exodus story is thanks for oh, that's
beautiful.
Ellen Krause (36:13):
Well, Ingrid, throughout the book, you know
you're just so genuine insharing your personal testimony.
What was the impact of writingthis book on your own life and
how can this book help otherswho are wrestling with life's
hardships?
Yeah, thanks.
Ingrid Faro (36:35):
It's this, and I published my dissertation, but
that was academic.
And I published my dissertation, but that was academic.
But I had been doing a lot ofspeaking in different groups and
even in different countries andso forth about abuse and trauma
(36:58):
and the things that God hadshowed me.
I had a responsibility to sharewhat God had taught me and I
could see how it was helpingother people, and so I already
had this network of people whowere working through and
rediscovering God's goodness,and so it's been such an
encouragement to people I don'tknow sending me emails or
(37:20):
finding me on.
Facebook or you know, invitingme into a Zoom call because
they're having a Bible study,you know?
Ellen Krause (37:25):
so in different ways.
Ingrid Faro (37:27):
So I've been able to, and even in my own church,
you know, just sharing withpeople with different you know
from many different situations,who are just seeing God
differently.
And that's for me is, you know,when someone comes up and says
this has changed my life,because the core is they're
seeing God differently.
And that's for me is, you know,when someone comes up and says
this has changed my life,because the core is they're
seeing God differently andthey're having hope Because they
(37:50):
so many had been taught thatyou know well, this was God's
will for your life or something,and and they so they had no
hope, or you know, you're beyondhelp, or all the lies that they
had come to believe.
And so I think the biggestthing is just that opportunity
to taste.
It might just be that firsttaste of goodness that you've
had a long time.
(38:11):
And I remember one woman who hadcome to a woman's retreat and
she had come with her daughterand it was a full weekend and at
the end she came up and shesaid I haven't been to church in
20 years and she said because Isinned.
And so I was told that you know,I was dirty and you know so she
(38:32):
had quit, she hadn't been tochurch in 20 years and I saw her
again a year later and shelooked like a completely
different person.
She had embraced the goodnessof God, she had embraced
forgiveness and she was justalive and she was part.
You know, she was infellowshipping with people in
church and just this vibrant,you know.
(38:52):
So when you get to see peoplewhose lives are changed and I
just like mine, I mean I'm anencouragement, you know, as I
put in there.
You know, my first was studyingto be a pastor, had a third of
the New Testament memorized, buthe was unfaithful and violent
and I didn't escape until afterhe tried to kill me and I had
been taught, you know, never sayanything bad, you know.
(39:14):
And so that was just forstarters, you know.
But you know other things thathad happened.
So it's, it's giving people hopeyou know we'd talk about
suicide and and so many of thereally hard issues.
But um and, and we can, we canbelieve that God did it.
Uh, and so it's.
It's also, uh, some of it isjust inviting people to give God
(39:40):
and themselves another chance,to give life and goodness
another chance that life can begood.
And it may take a while, it maytake some courage, but I love
the definition I put in therefrom courage is not the lack of
fear, but it's taking action inthe face of fear, and so it's
(40:00):
like all right, you know,courage doesn't look like, you
know just running in.
Sometimes it looks like kneesknocking and like I don't know.
You know that was how I started.
Ellen Krause (40:11):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
For a long time I had taped onmy computer the passage from
Second Timothy, for God has notgiven us a spirit of fear, but
of power and love and sound mind.
And that just always encouragedme that if I'm experiencing
fear, it's not from God, andthat his love and his caring,
(40:34):
his being near and with us atall times should help put some
of that anxiety at bay.
Yes Well, Ingrid, how canpeople find out more information
about you and the book?
Ingrid Faro (40:54):
Thank you.
It's on Amazon or most, I thinkit's on pretty much all
Christian outlets of books aswell.
I do have a website just myname, ingridfaro.
com, so, and you know.
So, yeah, I can be.
I can be found.
(41:15):
I'm also Northern Seminary.
You can also find me at it'sjust seminaryedu, and so also
YouTube.
They've got different videos ofme speaking on various topics
as well.
You can just put in my nameAwesome.
Ellen Krause (41:32):
Well, we will include all of those links in
our show notes for sure.
So people can find them easilyand quickly.
Before we go, Ingrid, I have toask you some of our favorite
Bible study tool questions.
I'm sure you have many Bibles,but what Bible is your go-to
Bible and what translation is?
Ingrid Faro (41:51):
it.
Yeah, you know it was funny.
I listened to your interviewwith Sandra Richter.
I was like well, that's myanswer too, because I love the
NIV.
When I'm speaking I usually usethe NIV because it reads more
beautifully and so forth.
But for my personal study I douse the NASB because it is
wooden and, as she mentioned,also because I can see the
language behind it.
(42:12):
So I still tend to use that.
I do like the NRSV, you know,sometimes I'll use that,
depending on what I'm writing,and the Lexham English Bible.
Sometimes I'll use that,depending on what I'm writing,
and the Lexham English Bible.
Sometimes I'll use that.
So sometimes I'll look,especially if I'm writing or if
I'm going to be speaking.
I'll look at some differentversions, but I tend, you know,
but my main go-to is still theNIV and the NASB.
(42:35):
You know, and I keep looking atothers and you know there's a
lot of great translations outthere, but it's yeah that's what
I tend to use.
Ellen Krause (42:48):
Okay, awesome.
Do you have any favoritejournaling supplies or anything
you like to use to enhance yourBible?
Ingrid Faro (42:51):
study experience.
Yeah Well, for myself, I useLogos and you can get an intro
package in Logos which is, youknow, relatively inexpensive but
there are so many free.
So for my students who don't,who aren't going to be studying
Greek or Hebrew, or people whojust want to have, you know,
enhance their tools, there's theStep Bible Bible Hub.
(43:12):
You can pull up an interlinearand see for each word, what is
the Greek and Hebrew word, bothin the original language and
transliterated, and then thatwill link you to Strong's and a
few other lexicons and so forth.
So you can do a little bit morein Bible Hub.
I use Bible Gateway just if Iwant to look at, check different
translations.
Step Bible what else?
(43:35):
Those are a few of the ones.
The Blue Letter Bible also.
So, again, these are some ofthe free online resources.
A great book if you're juststudying.
There are two other resourcesthat I also.
There's the book how to Readthe Bible for All it's Worth.
That's great.
You know particular book of theBible and it gives you a great
overview.
(43:55):
And they also do some wordstudies and they've got such
excellent scholarship.
They, you know they're, they'reit's just solid in the biblical
(44:16):
languages and so forth.
So those are again some of mymy favorite resources.
Ellen Krause (44:19):
OK, that's so awesome.
My favorite resources Okay,that's so awesome.
Well, ingrid, thank you so muchfor being here and just being
willing to share your insights.
Your exploration into thisdifficult topic has really given
us a lot to think about, andit's just so encouraging to each
and every one of us.
It gives us hope in the face ofevil.
Ingrid Faro (44:41):
Yeah, thank you, thanks.
So good to thank you forletting me share Absolutely.
Ellen Krause (44:48):
And for our listeners.
I just want to encourage you topick up a copy of Ingrid's book
Demystifying Evil.
Her book goes into an even muchdeeper understanding of the
presence of evil and how we canrespond with faith.
I will make sure we have thatlinked in the show notes.
We love you all.
We appreciate you listening.
(45:10):
Have a blessed day.
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