July 17, 2025 • 40 mins
It sounds impossible, right? Joy and suffering in the same sentence. But in this powerful conversation with pastor and author Chip Ingram, we dive into Paul’s letter to the Philippians and learn how joy can actually grow because of hardship—not in spite of it. If you’re walking through something heavy, this episode is for you.
Scriptures referenced:
- Philippians 1
- Nehemiah 8:9-12
- Philippians 1:21
- Philippians 1:29
- John 16:33
- Ephesians 4:1
- 2 Corinthians 12:9-10
I Choose Joy: Change Your Perspective, Change Your Life
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellen Krause (00:04):
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.
Our goal is to help you delightin God's Word and thrive in
Christian living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the Coffee andBible Time podcast.
I'm Ellen, your host, and I'mso glad that you have joined us
today.
If joy feels a little out ofreach lately, you're not alone.
In a world that feelsincreasingly chaotic,
(00:45):
discouraging or just plainexhausting, joy might feel more
like a luxury than a hallmark ofthe Holy Spirit.
But what if joy isn't just afeeling?
What if it's something deeper,something stronger than our
circumstances?
Well, today we are joined byChip Ingram, the teaching pastor
(01:06):
and CEO of Living on the Edge,an international teaching and
discipleship ministry.
Chip is a longtime pastor, theauthor of several books,
including Holy Ambition and theInvisible War, and a passionate
Bible teacher who spent decadeshelping people follow Jesus
authentically.
(01:27):
He and his wife Teresa live inCalifornia and have four grown
children and 12 grandchildren,and in this conversation we're
going to discuss how Philippians1 and the life of the Apostle
Paul teach us how to experienceauthentic joy even when our
circumstances make it feelimpossible.
(01:49):
So if you've ever wondered howto hold on when life gets hard,
you're going to be encouraged bywhat Chip has to teach us.
So, without further ado,welcome Chip.
Chip Ingram (02:00):
Thank you, Ellen.
Great to be with you and yourdaughter.
Ellen Krause (02:02):
I just love hearing the sound of your voice
and now getting to see you inperson.
It's so exciting for me becauseI've listened to you on Moody
Radio for years, so thank youfor your ministry there.
Chip Ingram (02:14):
We're thrilled to get to do it.
Moody's been a really greatpartner.
We have deep and long ties tothe school and many of the
presidents and just how it'sbeen a beacon of light in the
midst of a crazy world for wellover a century.
Ellen Krause (02:30):
Absolutely Well.
Why don't you start out bytelling us a little bit about
why you decided to approach thistopic of joy now?
Was there a specific lifeexperience that prompted you?
Chip Ingram (02:45):
Yes, you know, it's one of those where sometimes
you get a great idea and youthink, oh Lord's given you
something, so please show mewhat to do.
And then other times you findyourself writing out of your own
personal need, and this is oneof those.
About seven years ago maybealmost eight now I had a really
(03:05):
difficult pain in terms of myback.
I had discs that were bad, myback was bent, stenosis, all
kind of different things.
So two years of every treatmentunder the sun, followed by a
major surgery, infusion,followed by a couple hard years,
yet another surgery, when allthat broke loose.
And you know it was just.
(03:26):
You know I continued to workand but I was on ice packs and
every treatment under the worldand couldn't sit, couldn't stand
.
Every surgery was a long, majorrehab and taking little steps
in the backyard and praying.
And I came in one day afterdoing that and of course, you
know my wife bore a lot of thatburden for a long time and I
(03:48):
remember sitting down on thehearth and she looked at me and
she said, chip, I don't want tohurt your feelings, but I feel
like I need to share somethingwith you.
And I said, well, what's thatshe goes well.
You know I really appreciateyour persevering and all the
rest, but I married a reallypositive, upbeat,
future-oriented person andyou've really lost your joy.
(04:10):
Do you realize how it's verysubtle, how negative you become,
and I thought my initial godlyreaction was no way, that's not
me.
I didn't say anything, thoughAfter 46 years of marriage, you
learn not to say the first thing, and you know I had a little
time to think about it and Irealized, yeah, because of pain,
(04:32):
those people that had chronicpain, your patients, get smaller
.
The glass is more half full, andlittle by little, I realized I
did, and so I was to speak atthe Billy Graham Conference
Center in about two months, andthe topic was Philippians,
chapter one, and so I studied itin depth and it was like God
just ringing and saying Chip,look look at Paul's
(04:55):
circumstances.
He's in prison.
He's writing a thank you notebecause they sent some food and
some financial resources throughone of the church members,
epaphroditus, and he wants tothank them.
And look, his opening is heprays for them with joy and his
focus is upward, and then he'schained between these two guards
and you know, I've seen apicture of the prison.
(05:16):
They would drop you down in ahole and it was dark and I mean
just horrendous.
If you didn't have a friend tobring you food you didn't eat.
I mean just horrendous.
And if you didn't have a friendto bring you food you didn't
eat.
I mean it wasn't like theyserve meals.
When we read prison we think alittle bit of how we see it.
And I thought he said I thankGod that my circumstances have
turned out for the greaterprogress of the gospel.
(05:38):
And so as I went through thechapter and I taught it and then
I pulled out some verypractical things that I wrote on
little cards and Ellen, thisisn't a silver bullet like hey,
read the book, I choose joy andthings will be great.
But it will, I think, helppeople understand first that we
don't have to wait for joy tocome our way, but also you can
(06:00):
go into training and we reallycan allow ourselves to look at
life through God's perspectiveand in the midst of our hardest,
deepest times, my testimony isthat I've been able to choose
joy and the response to thatweekend and the response to it
airing on the broadcast, it waslike people with anxiety and
(06:20):
depression and struggles andyoung people and suicide.
It just seemed like you know,lord, I better, I better get
this in a format that morepeople can get.
So it grew out of my own lackof joy.
Ellen Krause (06:32):
If you will, and God speaking to me, and it's
incredible that you know Godallowed you to have that
experience and so that now he isusing it for the good of so
many others.
And you know you touched onthere that there are people
listening who are going throughsome horrific circumstances now,
(06:56):
and I'm just thinking of likethe flooding in Texas.
Tell us about how.
Do you think joy is just stillsomething that is important,
even when it seems impossible?
Chip Ingram (07:09):
or someone's sick and you pray and they get better
, or you have a wonderful dinnerwith your family.
I mean, there's lots of things,events that make us happy, but
(07:31):
the word happy comes fromhappenings.
Happiness is tied mostly toevents and joy is a sustaining
byproduct of your connectionwith Jesus that, supernaturally
inside of you, allows you, inthe midst of darkness,
difficulty, pain, disappointment, betrayal, to be buoyed up
(07:52):
inside in a way that no one canrob it from you, and it's a
fruit of the Spirit.
It's something the Spirit ofGod produces.
You know, this fruit of theSpirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, etc.
And I love CS Lewis.
You know such an influentialwriter.
One of his quotes he says joyis the serious business of
(08:17):
heaven, and that's what I wouldwant believers to hear.
This isn't like oh, this isokay.
In Nehemiah, you know, god'sagenda was pretty much
completely dissipated.
He went back to rebuild a wall.
Other leaders had gone back 80years before.
Finally they build the actualwall.
But then he has to rebuild thefocus on God and the people
(08:38):
walking with God again.
I mean, it was a completeturnaround and as they read the
scriptures, the people just weptbecause they saw how far away
from God.
They drifted and it happened tobe a day of festival.
And so he says no, we're goingto repent, we're going to go
through the process.
But here's what we need.
We need strength to make itthrough.
(09:00):
The joy of the Lord is yourstrength, and he had them.
Rejoice in who God was andrejoice that his forgiveness is
available.
And I think that has been a biglesson for me is that joy isn't
like it would be nice.
Joy is always available andthere is a way to think and
process and pray where, in theworst of circumstances, god
(09:24):
promises If you get a commandright, rejoice always.
That's not a suggestion.
And again I say rejoice.
Let your gentleness orforbearance be evident to
everyone.
The Lord is near Someone.
One theologian said that iflove was the community of the
early church, joy was theirbusiness card.
It was.
(09:44):
You just saw this joy in themidst and I think we have a
great opportunity.
And it doesn't mean we're upall the time.
This isn't glad handing.
This is not self-help.
Positive thinking, this is thespirit of God in the context of
community and God's word,allowing us to see through a
(10:04):
perspective, allows us to havegreat joy.
Ellen Krause (10:08):
Absolutely, and I know that I've seen that joy in
others and it really is, I think, contagious to the standpoint
that you want to experience thatyourself.
And I think when you see peoplegoing through these tremendous
difficulties and having that,you know that it has to be
(10:28):
supernatural.
Would you say that joy is moreof a discipline or a gift, and
where do our emotions fit inwith the experience of joy?
Chip Ingram (10:40):
Well, that is a really great question because I
think those things you know,they so overlap in so many ways.
It does require some disciplineand our emotions are definitely
involved, but I can't.
I can't wait for my emotions toget to a place before I do what
I know God wants me to do.
And one of the things you know.
(11:03):
There's four key paragraphs inchapter one and as I studied
that, I'm going to answer yourquestion like this, because as I
studied it, as Paul prayed, Isaw, wow, his focus was upward,
praising and thanking God, andhis focus was outward, in his
terrible situation.
(11:23):
He's praying that their lovewould grow and increase.
Second, what I noticed was inhis own circumstances.
He looked through the lens ofpurpose and it was like what's
God's purpose in this?
So he found joy, not that hewas chained between two guards
and it was terrible.
I mean, he was real.
He's getting up and going.
Here's another day.
This is going to be reallyrough.
I'm chained to guys.
(11:44):
I wonder if I'm going to getanything to eat.
It's dark, it's damp, there'srats.
Nevertheless, that's that.
And he looked at it throughthat lens and then, a little bit
later, he's not sure whetherhe's going to live or die.
And he looks at life throughthe lens of hope.
And if he looked at his currentsituation, hope was pretty dim,
possibly executed.
(12:04):
But he looked at it througheternal perspective.
And so that perspective was forme to live as Christ, to die as
gain.
And then maybe one of the mostpowerful parts of the book for
me was at the very end, and he'sencouraging this church.
It's a young church and theygot the same kind of external
persecution and it's a littledisunity going on between a
(12:26):
couple of ladies and factions.
And he tells them it's beengranted to you not only to
believe in him but also tosuffer for his sake,
experiencing the same conflictwhich you've heard to be and
seen to be in me.
And I think he looked at itthrough a perspective of God's
expectations.
God does miracles, he'spowerful, and he also says in
(12:48):
the world you'll havetribulation.
And so those four things, Icame up with a question for each
one.
And then, if you don't mind, mydad was a math teacher, I loved
algebra, and so when I lookedat the entire chapter, an
algebraic formula came up.
A algebraic formula came up andit's the letter C for
(13:10):
circumstances plus the letter Pfor perspective equals sign your
experience.
And so what I find is ourcircumstances.
We have very little control of.
I mean, whether it rains,whether it doesn't rain, the
stock market up down, tariffswho's president, who's not?
We're bombarded bycircumstances.
We can't control tariffs.
Who's president, who's not?
We're bombarded bycircumstances we can't control.
If our focus, our perspective,is through those, we will have a
(13:31):
life of ups and downs and dipsand valleys.
But our circumstances plus ourperspective, if we can, in the
midst of our challenges, saywhere's my focus right now?
Is it upward and outward or isit inward?
And what's my purpose, what'sGod's agenda in this versus what
I really want.
And so I ended up writing onfour little cards what's my
(13:54):
focus, what's my purpose,where's my hope and what are my
expectations.
And then I begin to read thosethings over out of Philippians 1
.
And I put those in the book ina way where, just for me, it's
just us ordinary Christiansgoing into training where we,
you, can actually train yourmind.
(14:15):
It takes a few weeks and youpractice for a few months.
I've been doing this, for youknow, years and years and years,
to where, yes, your initial isoh, why did that happen.
And the Spirit of God, chip,where's your focus?
Okay, lord, I don't like this.
It's painful right now.
I thank you that you're incontrol.
I thank you're going to use itand then shift your focus and
(14:38):
begin to say other people aregoing through some worse things.
How do I help them?
It's an amazing thing to me.
I don't feel like it and I canfeel really low and down and I
can choose.
I choose to pray when I don'tfeel like praying, when I get
really discouraged or evendepressed.
I have sort of a three-partpractical strategy.
(15:00):
Number one I go and get as harda workout as I can so I get
sweaty, because God gives usbiology.
Those endorphins areantidepressants.
Number two I find a place whereno one is, because I'm
discouraged, I don't want topray, and I sing as loud as I
can Praises to God.
Lord, I don't really want to dothis right now, but you are the
(15:21):
King of Kings and the Lord ofLords.
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
And my son's a songwriter, so Ising a lot of his songs and I
just worship the Lord and inthis process, first my body is
kind of like I don't want towear out, I don't feel like it.
Why is this happening to me?
I'm moaning and whining in mymind all that, and then step
(15:41):
three is okay, lord, I need anaction, step Someone or
something that's hurting morethan me right now.
Today, I'm going to help them.
It is amazing how your emotionschange because your perspective
changes and you feel this energywell up inside of you and this
(16:04):
hope that gets to be birthed,and there's this joy.
And is it a battle?
Yes, does it require discipline?
Yes, do I do it 100% of thetime?
No, you know.
Paul says walk in a mannerworthy.
Well, a walk is baby steps, andif you see a baby, they walk
three or four steps and whenthey're learning, they fall.
(16:25):
Well, parents don't get upright now, they're thrilled with
the three steps, and ourHeavenly Father is so patient
with us.
So, as you learn consistentlyto get the right perspective,
you experience great joy.
Ellen Krause (16:40):
I love in the book how you recommended writing
that down on the card because Imade a note for myself the C
plus P plus E, and just I wantto remember that living above my
circumstances, you said, occurswhen my perspective interprets
(17:00):
my circumstances rather than mycircumstances determining my
perspective, and that's reallypowerful.
I think one of the things thatI found so interesting with this
passage in Paul is that duringthose most difficult times that
he was having there, like youjust described, that the letters
(17:22):
that he went on to write havenow encouraged and convicted
thousands or millions ofmillions of people across the
generations.
You kind of wish Paul knew thathe would have such an impact.
But what would you say overall?
What do you think we can learnfrom Paul's perseverance and
(17:43):
faithfulness in the worst ofcircumstances?
Chip Ingram (17:47):
I would say both from scripture and even history,
let alone church history.
Probably the greatest peoplethat are the most loving and the
greatest impact are people thathave been through extraordinary
suffering and some people runfrom God during that and blame
him and others lean in and he'sable to do something in us
(18:09):
through that and confession.
I hope it's okay.
The COVID it was early on andin California it was a level of
shutdown like no other place.
They were like if you walkoutside you have to have a mask
on by yourself.
I mean, it was crazy.
I couldn't see my kids, mygrandkids, and so I got
discouraged and then I had abouttwo or three days.
(18:30):
I get depressed and I'm kind ofup person in general, and when
I get depressed I don't have amild one.
I was really dark and it wasjust.
I knew I was in a spiritualbattle and so I went out and,
you know, got on the treadmilland I got real sweaty and I took
a long walk and, you know,praise God and I feel a little
better.
And then I walked in the houseand on the television was the
(18:53):
news was depicting what washappening in Egypt during COVID.
The early.
This was like June, july, whenit first started, and you know
body bags and desperate, and thehead of all the Protestant
churches has become a goodfriend.
We've trained the Protestantpastors throughout all of Egypt
and so I said, okay, I was.
Who's hurting more than me?
Dr Zaki and all the pastorsthere.
(19:15):
So I had a Zoom call the nextday.
We have a conversation.
He goes, I and my family are OK, but we're barely surviving a
chance.
I mean completely unplanned.
He didn't know.
The only reason I reached outto you is because you're hurting
worse than me and I'm stuck andcan't get out of it.
So everything that's going tohappen from this point on is not
(19:37):
great leadership, some bigstrategy.
It's a hurting person justtrying to obey and in my
weakness, god, would you helpthis person?
So he says, oh, send me thatseries.
I said no, dr Zaki, I'mthinking about a series, because
as I saw COVID, I thought whatwould the Lord say to the world
right now If someone said, chip,you've got three weeks or five
(20:00):
weeks or two, whatever.
What is God's word to the earlymonths of COVID?
And I thought to myself youknow, not a lot different from
the very first book of the earlychurch Jews are running for
their lives, persecution hascome.
And James, the half-brother ofJesus it's the very first book
in the New Testament to theseJewish Christians that are
(20:22):
spread and he gives them athree-part the art of survival.
The A is there's an attitudeConsider it all.
Joy.
In the midst of this, god'sgoing to work in you, then
through you, and then there's aresource wisdom, there's
supernatural wisdom, which iswhat to do, when to do it, how
to do it, if you're willing todo whatever God says, which is a
challenge.
And then the last part of that,in the first 12 verses, is
(20:44):
there's a theology about lifeand perspective that allows you
to overcome discouragement andsee yourself from God's
perspective.
And that was on a Thursday and Iwent from being depressed to
making a couple of phone calls.
By Monday I had a guy with twocameras.
I took a PVC pipe and put asheet that looked like bricks on
it as a background and Istudied all weekend.
(21:07):
I taught it, but never likethis Did three messages sent
them.
By Friday they were in Egypt.
By the next Friday they weredubbed the following I think
Tuesday or so every pastor inEgypt it was.
You know these Zooms.
I mean I had pages and pagesand pages.
And Dr Zaki says look, we'rehurting, share it all Hour and a
(21:29):
half.
Then I did an hour and a halfof Q&A and I heard, I mean
people ask me, chip, why did Godlet my wife die?
And it was just crushing.
And our head of internationalwas with me and we got off of it
and he said, chip, I don'tthink that series that you
developed was just for Egypt,and he had worked with Billy
(21:50):
Graham for 10 years and heworked with Luis Palau for 13.
So he was connected all overthe world.
And the next week I found myselfwith 700 pastors from 300
cities in India, and I won't gointo it all, but it was for the
next 25 months, morning andevening.
Everyone offered it Right nowmedia, every organization,
(22:12):
worship pastors, morning andnight.
We would just encourage tens ofthousands of pastors.
And then that little bookletwent into about 32 different
languages.
And then, near the end of COVID, we went to them and we spent a
day and we do session one, andthen let them get in groups of
maybe four and they cried andthey wept as pastors India,
(22:35):
africa, latin America, southeastAsia.
And I look back and I think Iwas down and discouraged because
my circumstances were bad.
I was angry, I was frustratedand God used my weakness, my
struggle and a small baby stepin all the ministry I've ever
(23:01):
been in.
I think.
One of our international teammembers told me we've trained
339,000 or 400,000 pastors inlive events in the last three
and a half years.
That all grew out of thatmoment in COVID, and so I would
just want to say to people askGod, lord, okay, I don't like
(23:22):
what I'm going through with mymate.
I'm so worried about one of mychildren.
I'm depressed.
I've got a health issue'm goingthrough with my mate.
I'm so worried about one of mychildren.
I'm depressed.
I've got a health issue thatdoesn't seem to change.
We've had a split in our church.
I'm so mad at so-and-so.
Ask the question where's myfocus?
And then God, what's yourpurpose?
(23:42):
How could you use thesecircumstances?
That perspective changed mylife and it changed the
trajectory of everything I didup to the first 40 some years of
ministry.
Joy is the serious business ofheaven, as I've seen this happen
.
I mean now we've got nationalsin India and Dubai and Egypt and
(24:09):
Latin America.
None of these people I evenknew.
Now they're all on our team andI track and I hear what God is
doing in these rural villages inNepal and think, humanly
speaking, that happened becausea pretty immature pastor named
Chip got discouraged.
Then he lost perspective andgot really depressed and then he
(24:30):
chose to take a baby steptoward the light.
And God said I wanted you to bepositioned and, as we've all
celebrated these last five, sixyears, there is zero credit to
be taken by anyone.
I mean, it's not like well,what was your strategy?
Didn't have one, how did youthink it was work?
(24:50):
Had no idea.
What did you do?
We followed the light.
We just kept taking the nextbaby steps.
I just really want to encouragethose listening.
God has great and wonderful andsupernatural purposes and you
can choose to enter in andwonderful and supernatural
purposes and you can choose toenter in and some of the things
(25:11):
that you all talk about.
Why our hearts connect is butyou have to be in God's word so
you can hear his voice and youhave to be in community and
sharing.
I was able to say I made aphone call when it was dark.
I still remember we weredropping the dog off or
something and my wife went in tothe vet and I called a mentor.
He's 90.
He has been with me since I was28.
(25:34):
And I said I said, ac, I'm in adark spot and thoughts are going
through my mind that I'm there.
I mean I can't believe I'm eventhinking of them.
I have to get them out, wouldyou?
Would you listen?
And he's known me since heknows all my kids.
And I said, gosh, I mean like,don't be a pastor anymore, your
life is away.
(25:54):
I mean there were lies, but theykept going around and around in
my head and I couldn't get ridof them and I prayed and I
fasted and I just laid that outfor him and he listened,
encouraged me.
I just laid that out for himand he listened, encouraged me.
He called me or texted me everysingle day, probably for the
next 20 days.
How are you doing today?
Prayed for you.
Today we need people and Godrestored my joy and God worked
(26:21):
in my heart.
But we go through some darktimes that feel like that's the
key.
They feel like they'll neverchange.
We don't have to wait forcircumstances to change.
We can choose joy in the midstof them.
So that's my heart for thisbook.
Ellen Krause (26:35):
That's so powerful .
I just made a little notebecause I want to put it on my
board.
God can use our baby steps and,like you said, when we're in
these low, low, seemingly instates where we feel like it's
hopeless, yes, if we can justallow ourselves that one baby
(26:55):
step, I think of a couple at ourchurch who they had ended up
turning it like into a littleskit that was done at the front
of our church and about arelationship this couple had
developed with this man andlater you come to learn that it
was the man who was the drunkdriver that hit and killed their
(27:20):
son.
Wow, and you don't know thatuntil the very end, but you can
see how.
That's the joy we're talkingabout.
They saw that God had a biggerpurpose, a bigger plan, things
that we can't possiblyunderstand, and has really
(27:43):
impacted me as well.
And it's exciting to hear theimpact of this ministry of yours
has just gone all around theworld, because clearly everyone,
all around the world, we're allGod's people and they need to
hear this message as well.
Well, chip, as we start to wrapthings up here, I know you've
(28:03):
shared this message at variousconferences and broadcasts, and
could you share maybe one storythat someone about how this
truth has impacted their life?
Chip Ingram (28:17):
Yes, I get a lot of letters and a lot of emails and
I got a few just in the lastfew days, you know, a lady
saying I was really discouragedand we've had ongoing marriage
problems and in my mind I'veblamed my husband because he's
not doing this, he's not doingthat and I just keep feeding off
the negative.
And I heard this series and Ibegan to think about what are my
(28:42):
choices and how am I thinkingand what's God's purpose in it
and where is my hope?
Is my hope that I had thisperfect marriage or is my hope
that I can't have any joy in mylife until quote my husband
changes?
And you know what are myexpectations.
You know, and as she wentthrough that, she said just
thank you so much, for I knewwhat she meant.
(29:05):
It wasn't me, but for saving mylife and saving my marriage.
She says it didn't happenovernight, but it was me
beginning to recognize where mythinking was and one of the
things you know, I'm certain inthis book, but especially in
some other things, like the goodfriend Kyle Eidelman wrote a
(29:29):
book called Taking Every ThoughtCaptive.
He and I are good friends.
He's a pastor in Kentucky andone of the things I was just
going to mention is, as youchange your focus, you have to
change your inputs, and so asteady diet of news, an
addiction to our phone we allkind of talk about it as though,
(29:49):
yeah, it's really not good, wereally shouldn't do it.
And then everyone keeps doingit and I really just tell people
you are the product of yourthought life.
If you want to have joy, Iwould say, as one mentor told me
, invest your mind on thingsthat are timeless and then spend
a little bit of time on thingsthat are timely, because they
always change.
(30:10):
You don't want to make bigdecisions or make big
convictions about what's timely.
You want to base your life onwhat's timeless.
I've been in theseconversations, ellen.
It's like well, chip, thanks, Ireally understand.
I'm glad for you.
I don't really read the Biblethat much and you know I'm glad
you know pastors and people likeyou, and this isn't for people
(30:33):
like me, this is for all of us,ordinary.
I feel like I'm a very ordinaryChristian who was discipled by
a bricklayer with a high schooleducation and his life propelled
me to discover I had some giftsand become a pastor, and I'm
(30:53):
glad for seminary and languagesand theology, but to this day,
if I could trade my time with abricklayer.
Over all the time, and all thestudies and all the mentors he
taught me to meet with God everyday.
He taught me how to study theBible for myself.
So I heard God speak to me.
That has been the mostimportant and the most
(31:18):
sustaining thing of my wholelife.
I think a lot of the challengesof our brothers and sisters is
that basic aligning your lifewith scripture, meeting with
Jesus to get to know him, not sowe can get him to make our
lives work out the way we wantto.
My dream in my life is to helpChristians live like Christians,
(31:39):
because when I grew up, Iattended a church that didn't
believe the Bible and they saidone thing and lived another way,
and I rejected God, the Bible,everything.
And when I met some Christiansthat lived like Christians, they
weren't perfect, but they werereal, they were passionate, they
were honest and it was like Isaw Jesus.
And so that's my heart forthose listening to us, that we
(32:02):
have a kind, loving, just andholy God that longs for our
lives to flourish, and he's laidout.
This is how it works, and Ithink, as G K Chesterton once
said it's not that the Christianlife has been tried and it's
not workable.
It's rarely even been triedamong most Christians.
So that's our heart's desire.
Ellen Krause (32:23):
Thank you so much, Chip.
Your insight has reallyimpacted my heart and we've just
scratched the surface of what'sin your book, which is even
more incredible content.
Where can people learn moreabout?
I Choose Joy and your work.
Chip Ingram (32:38):
Well, they certainly can go to, you know,
livingontheedgeorg.
They can go to Amazon or anybookstore.
And then we have we do have aChip Ingram app.
We have fresh messages everyday, but we'll have the last six
months and they're all free.
And then at the bottom we havea little click on discipleship,
so that, much like what you alldo.
(32:58):
We have these eight-minute.
They're kind of mini teachingsand I'll walk through and teach
people how to study the Bible,how to journal, how to pray.
So those are a couple good waysto do it.
And, of course, listen to MoodyRadio.
That's always a good one.
Ellen Krause (33:13):
Excellent.
Well, we will make sure weinclude links to all of those in
our show notes.
Before we let you go, I have toask you a couple of our
favorite questions, and thefirst one is I know you probably
have a whole library of Bibles,but which Bible is your go-to
Bible and what translation is it?
Chip Ingram (33:31):
I kind of have two.
My go-to Bible is the NewAmerican Standard 1995.
And you know they keep updatingit just a little.
But one of the things thatBricklayer helped me with and it
was so was memorizing scripture.
And so I memorized hundreds ofscriptures in small books of the
Bible.
They're in the New AmericanStandard and so even when I read
(33:53):
another passage sometimes Imisquote it because part of it's
in my brain.
And then, especially innarratives I really like.
I like the NIV, I like the NIV84.
And again, they're allexcellent translations and ESV.
But those are probably my go-topassages.
(34:13):
And then, devotionally, youknow where I'm studying.
It's always nice to you know.
Check out Phillips translation.
We have so many good tools.
In fact, that's one of yourother questions, isn't it?
Ellen Krause (34:23):
Yes, Let me ask you this Do you have any
favorite Bible journalingsupplies?
Is that something that you do?
Chip Ingram (34:32):
Yes, In fact I kept saying on programs that I
journaled, and so our Living onthe Edge team, we have a prayer
journal and I feel likeeveryone's looking for how
exactly do you do that?
And so I write down in the verybeginning a few tips, because I
think journaling can either getto become a duty or a
(34:53):
performance or like, oh, Ididn't do it today and you miss
the point.
And so I kind of line out whatI think is the best way to do it
and find your own way.
And then it's kind of nice tohave, you know, a few quotes
just here and there to givepeople some perspective, but
mostly a lot of white space.
And, as I tell people,sometimes I'll journal five or
(35:15):
six pages, sometimes I won'tjournal for a couple of days.
I want to be explaining, I'mprocessing my heart out loud and
this is so convicting.
But I find I can think certainthings, but when I write them
out and I see them, it's a lotharder to lie to myself and to
lie to God.
And so I hope my journalsshortly after my death will be
(35:37):
burned because they're very raw.
But I find is honest.
You got to get honest with Godand you got to get honest with
yourself.
So that's been a very, verypowerful tool.
It may not be for everybody,but it's been a powerful tool
for me.
Ellen Krause (35:56):
Fantastic.
Ok, well, links, links to thoseas well.
Last question what's yourfavorite app or website for
Bible study tools?
Chip Ingram (36:11):
or website for Bible study tools.
I obviously use YouVersion on aregular basis and we have a lot
of reading plans in there, butmy favorite app is Logos.
It is after all those years ofstudying.
You know we had to.
You know three years of Greek,two years of Hebrew and have
every commentary and I push abutton and I put a cursor over
it and it'll it'll parse theverb for me and click word study
(36:31):
.
I thank God for the brilliantpeople who created and they have
them at different levels.
You know you don't have to benda Bible school.
You know there's.
I don't know they have a colorcoded ones, but it is.
Yeah, that's probably myfavorite Bible ever.
Ellen Krause (36:50):
Awesome.
Yes, I think that's ourfavorite as well.
It is clearly just a phenomenalresource.
Well, chip, thank you so muchfor joining us today and for
sharing such practical,spirit-filled wisdom.
Your insights from I Choose Joyare both timely and just deeply
needed by people.
(37:11):
So I appreciate yourauthenticity and just your
willingness to share.
So, thank you, guys are doing.
Chip Ingram (37:16):
And, as we said before we came on, the thrill to
get to do that with your grownchildren is really, really
special.
So God bless you guys andthanks.
Ellen Krause (37:34):
Thank you so much and to our listeners.
If this conversation encouragedyou, make sure to check out
Chip's book I Choose Joy.
You can also learn more abouthis teaching ministry Living on
the Edge through the links inour show notes.
As always, if this episodeblessed you, would you take just
a moment to leave a review orshare this with a friend?
(37:57):
It helps support our work andallows more women to discover
these conversations.
We love you all.
Thank you for being here.
At the Coffee and Bible Time podcast.
Our goal is to help you delightin God's Word and thrive in
Christian living.
Each week we talk to subjectmatter experts who broaden your
biblical understanding,encourage you in hard times and
provide life-building tips toenhance your Christian walk.
We are so glad you have joinedus.
(00:25):
Welcome back to the Coffee andBible Time podcast.
I'm Ellen, your host, and I'mso glad that you have joined us
today.
If joy feels a little out ofreach lately, you're not alone.
In a world that feelsincreasingly chaotic,
(00:45):
discouraging or just plainexhausting, joy might feel more
like a luxury than a hallmark ofthe Holy Spirit.
But what if joy isn't just afeeling?
What if it's something deeper,something stronger than our
circumstances?
Well, today we are joined byChip Ingram, the teaching pastor
(01:06):
and CEO of Living on the Edge,an international teaching and
discipleship ministry.
Chip is a longtime pastor, theauthor of several books,
including Holy Ambition and theInvisible War, and a passionate
Bible teacher who spent decadeshelping people follow Jesus
authentically.
(01:27):
He and his wife Teresa live inCalifornia and have four grown
children and 12 grandchildren,and in this conversation we're
going to discuss how Philippians1 and the life of the Apostle
Paul teach us how to experienceauthentic joy even when our
circumstances make it feelimpossible.
(01:49):
So if you've ever wondered howto hold on when life gets hard,
you're going to be encouraged bywhat Chip has to teach us.
So, without further ado,welcome Chip.
Chip Ingram (02:00):
Thank you, Ellen.
Great to be with you and yourdaughter.
Ellen Krause (02:02):
I just love hearing the sound of your voice
and now getting to see you inperson.
It's so exciting for me becauseI've listened to you on Moody
Radio for years, so thank youfor your ministry there.
Chip Ingram (02:14):
We're thrilled to get to do it.
Moody's been a really greatpartner.
We have deep and long ties tothe school and many of the
presidents and just how it'sbeen a beacon of light in the
midst of a crazy world for wellover a century.
Ellen Krause (02:30):
Absolutely Well.
Why don't you start out bytelling us a little bit about
why you decided to approach thistopic of joy now?
Was there a specific lifeexperience that prompted you?
Chip Ingram (02:45):
Yes, you know, it's one of those where sometimes
you get a great idea and youthink, oh Lord's given you
something, so please show mewhat to do.
And then other times you findyourself writing out of your own
personal need, and this is oneof those.
About seven years ago maybealmost eight now I had a really
(03:05):
difficult pain in terms of myback.
I had discs that were bad, myback was bent, stenosis, all
kind of different things.
So two years of every treatmentunder the sun, followed by a
major surgery, infusion,followed by a couple hard years,
yet another surgery, when allthat broke loose.
And you know it was just.
(03:26):
You know I continued to workand but I was on ice packs and
every treatment under the worldand couldn't sit, couldn't stand
.
Every surgery was a long, majorrehab and taking little steps
in the backyard and praying.
And I came in one day afterdoing that and of course, you
know my wife bore a lot of thatburden for a long time and I
(03:48):
remember sitting down on thehearth and she looked at me and
she said, chip, I don't want tohurt your feelings, but I feel
like I need to share somethingwith you.
And I said, well, what's thatshe goes well.
You know I really appreciateyour persevering and all the
rest, but I married a reallypositive, upbeat,
future-oriented person andyou've really lost your joy.
(04:10):
Do you realize how it's verysubtle, how negative you become,
and I thought my initial godlyreaction was no way, that's not
me.
I didn't say anything, thoughAfter 46 years of marriage, you
learn not to say the first thing, and you know I had a little
time to think about it and Irealized, yeah, because of pain,
(04:32):
those people that had chronicpain, your patients, get smaller
.
The glass is more half full, andlittle by little, I realized I
did, and so I was to speak atthe Billy Graham Conference
Center in about two months, andthe topic was Philippians,
chapter one, and so I studied itin depth and it was like God
just ringing and saying Chip,look look at Paul's
(04:55):
circumstances.
He's in prison.
He's writing a thank you notebecause they sent some food and
some financial resources throughone of the church members,
epaphroditus, and he wants tothank them.
And look, his opening is heprays for them with joy and his
focus is upward, and then he'schained between these two guards
and you know, I've seen apicture of the prison.
(05:16):
They would drop you down in ahole and it was dark and I mean
just horrendous.
If you didn't have a friend tobring you food you didn't eat.
I mean just horrendous.
And if you didn't have a friendto bring you food you didn't
eat.
I mean it wasn't like theyserve meals.
When we read prison we think alittle bit of how we see it.
And I thought he said I thankGod that my circumstances have
turned out for the greaterprogress of the gospel.
(05:38):
And so as I went through thechapter and I taught it and then
I pulled out some verypractical things that I wrote on
little cards and Ellen, thisisn't a silver bullet like hey,
read the book, I choose joy andthings will be great.
But it will, I think, helppeople understand first that we
don't have to wait for joy tocome our way, but also you can
(06:00):
go into training and we reallycan allow ourselves to look at
life through God's perspectiveand in the midst of our hardest,
deepest times, my testimony isthat I've been able to choose
joy and the response to thatweekend and the response to it
airing on the broadcast, it waslike people with anxiety and
(06:20):
depression and struggles andyoung people and suicide.
It just seemed like you know,lord, I better, I better get
this in a format that morepeople can get.
So it grew out of my own lackof joy.
Ellen Krause (06:32):
If you will, and God speaking to me, and it's
incredible that you know Godallowed you to have that
experience and so that now he isusing it for the good of so
many others.
And you know you touched onthere that there are people
listening who are going throughsome horrific circumstances now,
(06:56):
and I'm just thinking of likethe flooding in Texas.
Tell us about how.
Do you think joy is just stillsomething that is important,
even when it seems impossible?
Chip Ingram (07:09):
or someone's sick and you pray and they get better
, or you have a wonderful dinnerwith your family.
I mean, there's lots of things,events that make us happy, but
(07:31):
the word happy comes fromhappenings.
Happiness is tied mostly toevents and joy is a sustaining
byproduct of your connectionwith Jesus that, supernaturally
inside of you, allows you, inthe midst of darkness,
difficulty, pain, disappointment, betrayal, to be buoyed up
(07:52):
inside in a way that no one canrob it from you, and it's a
fruit of the Spirit.
It's something the Spirit ofGod produces.
You know, this fruit of theSpirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, etc.
And I love CS Lewis.
You know such an influentialwriter.
One of his quotes he says joyis the serious business of
(08:17):
heaven, and that's what I wouldwant believers to hear.
This isn't like oh, this isokay.
In Nehemiah, you know, god'sagenda was pretty much
completely dissipated.
He went back to rebuild a wall.
Other leaders had gone back 80years before.
Finally they build the actualwall.
But then he has to rebuild thefocus on God and the people
(08:38):
walking with God again.
I mean, it was a completeturnaround and as they read the
scriptures, the people just weptbecause they saw how far away
from God.
They drifted and it happened tobe a day of festival.
And so he says no, we're goingto repent, we're going to go
through the process.
But here's what we need.
We need strength to make itthrough.
(09:00):
The joy of the Lord is yourstrength, and he had them.
Rejoice in who God was andrejoice that his forgiveness is
available.
And I think that has been a biglesson for me is that joy isn't
like it would be nice.
Joy is always available andthere is a way to think and
process and pray where, in theworst of circumstances, god
(09:24):
promises If you get a commandright, rejoice always.
That's not a suggestion.
And again I say rejoice.
Let your gentleness orforbearance be evident to
everyone.
The Lord is near Someone.
One theologian said that iflove was the community of the
early church, joy was theirbusiness card.
It was.
(09:44):
You just saw this joy in themidst and I think we have a
great opportunity.
And it doesn't mean we're upall the time.
This isn't glad handing.
This is not self-help.
Positive thinking, this is thespirit of God in the context of
community and God's word,allowing us to see through a
(10:04):
perspective, allows us to havegreat joy.
Ellen Krause (10:08):
Absolutely, and I know that I've seen that joy in
others and it really is, I think, contagious to the standpoint
that you want to experience thatyourself.
And I think when you see peoplegoing through these tremendous
difficulties and having that,you know that it has to be
(10:28):
supernatural.
Would you say that joy is moreof a discipline or a gift, and
where do our emotions fit inwith the experience of joy?
Chip Ingram (10:40):
Well, that is a really great question because I
think those things you know,they so overlap in so many ways.
It does require some disciplineand our emotions are definitely
involved, but I can't.
I can't wait for my emotions toget to a place before I do what
I know God wants me to do.
And one of the things you know.
(11:03):
There's four key paragraphs inchapter one and as I studied
that, I'm going to answer yourquestion like this, because as I
studied it, as Paul prayed, Isaw, wow, his focus was upward,
praising and thanking God, andhis focus was outward, in his
terrible situation.
(11:23):
He's praying that their lovewould grow and increase.
Second, what I noticed was inhis own circumstances.
He looked through the lens ofpurpose and it was like what's
God's purpose in this?
So he found joy, not that hewas chained between two guards
and it was terrible.
I mean, he was real.
He's getting up and going.
Here's another day.
This is going to be reallyrough.
I'm chained to guys.
(11:44):
I wonder if I'm going to getanything to eat.
It's dark, it's damp, there'srats.
Nevertheless, that's that.
And he looked at it throughthat lens and then, a little bit
later, he's not sure whetherhe's going to live or die.
And he looks at life throughthe lens of hope.
And if he looked at his currentsituation, hope was pretty dim,
possibly executed.
(12:04):
But he looked at it througheternal perspective.
And so that perspective was forme to live as Christ, to die as
gain.
And then maybe one of the mostpowerful parts of the book for
me was at the very end, and he'sencouraging this church.
It's a young church and theygot the same kind of external
persecution and it's a littledisunity going on between a
(12:26):
couple of ladies and factions.
And he tells them it's beengranted to you not only to
believe in him but also tosuffer for his sake,
experiencing the same conflictwhich you've heard to be and
seen to be in me.
And I think he looked at itthrough a perspective of God's
expectations.
God does miracles, he'spowerful, and he also says in
(12:48):
the world you'll havetribulation.
And so those four things, Icame up with a question for each
one.
And then, if you don't mind, mydad was a math teacher, I loved
algebra, and so when I lookedat the entire chapter, an
algebraic formula came up.
A algebraic formula came up andit's the letter C for
(13:10):
circumstances plus the letter Pfor perspective equals sign your
experience.
And so what I find is ourcircumstances.
We have very little control of.
I mean, whether it rains,whether it doesn't rain, the
stock market up down, tariffswho's president, who's not?
We're bombarded bycircumstances.
We can't control tariffs.
Who's president, who's not?
We're bombarded bycircumstances we can't control.
If our focus, our perspective,is through those, we will have a
(13:31):
life of ups and downs and dipsand valleys.
But our circumstances plus ourperspective, if we can, in the
midst of our challenges, saywhere's my focus right now?
Is it upward and outward or isit inward?
And what's my purpose, what'sGod's agenda in this versus what
I really want.
And so I ended up writing onfour little cards what's my
(13:54):
focus, what's my purpose,where's my hope and what are my
expectations.
And then I begin to read thosethings over out of Philippians 1
.
And I put those in the book ina way where, just for me, it's
just us ordinary Christiansgoing into training where we,
you, can actually train yourmind.
(14:15):
It takes a few weeks and youpractice for a few months.
I've been doing this, for youknow, years and years and years,
to where, yes, your initial isoh, why did that happen.
And the Spirit of God, chip,where's your focus?
Okay, lord, I don't like this.
It's painful right now.
I thank you that you're incontrol.
I thank you're going to use itand then shift your focus and
(14:38):
begin to say other people aregoing through some worse things.
How do I help them?
It's an amazing thing to me.
I don't feel like it and I canfeel really low and down and I
can choose.
I choose to pray when I don'tfeel like praying, when I get
really discouraged or evendepressed.
I have sort of a three-partpractical strategy.
(15:00):
Number one I go and get as harda workout as I can so I get
sweaty, because God gives usbiology.
Those endorphins areantidepressants.
Number two I find a place whereno one is, because I'm
discouraged, I don't want topray, and I sing as loud as I
can Praises to God.
Lord, I don't really want to dothis right now, but you are the
(15:21):
King of Kings and the Lord ofLords.
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
And my son's a songwriter, so Ising a lot of his songs and I
just worship the Lord and inthis process, first my body is
kind of like I don't want towear out, I don't feel like it.
Why is this happening to me?
I'm moaning and whining in mymind all that, and then step
(15:41):
three is okay, lord, I need anaction, step Someone or
something that's hurting morethan me right now.
Today, I'm going to help them.
It is amazing how your emotionschange because your perspective
changes and you feel this energywell up inside of you and this
(16:04):
hope that gets to be birthed,and there's this joy.
And is it a battle?
Yes, does it require discipline?
Yes, do I do it 100% of thetime?
No, you know.
Paul says walk in a mannerworthy.
Well, a walk is baby steps, andif you see a baby, they walk
three or four steps and whenthey're learning, they fall.
(16:25):
Well, parents don't get upright now, they're thrilled with
the three steps, and ourHeavenly Father is so patient
with us.
So, as you learn consistentlyto get the right perspective,
you experience great joy.
Ellen Krause (16:40):
I love in the book how you recommended writing
that down on the card because Imade a note for myself the C
plus P plus E, and just I wantto remember that living above my
circumstances, you said, occurswhen my perspective interprets
(17:00):
my circumstances rather than mycircumstances determining my
perspective, and that's reallypowerful.
I think one of the things thatI found so interesting with this
passage in Paul is that duringthose most difficult times that
he was having there, like youjust described, that the letters
(17:22):
that he went on to write havenow encouraged and convicted
thousands or millions ofmillions of people across the
generations.
You kind of wish Paul knew thathe would have such an impact.
But what would you say overall?
What do you think we can learnfrom Paul's perseverance and
(17:43):
faithfulness in the worst ofcircumstances?
Chip Ingram (17:47):
I would say both from scripture and even history,
let alone church history.
Probably the greatest peoplethat are the most loving and the
greatest impact are people thathave been through extraordinary
suffering and some people runfrom God during that and blame
him and others lean in and he'sable to do something in us
(18:09):
through that and confession.
I hope it's okay.
The COVID it was early on andin California it was a level of
shutdown like no other place.
They were like if you walkoutside you have to have a mask
on by yourself.
I mean, it was crazy.
I couldn't see my kids, mygrandkids, and so I got
discouraged and then I had abouttwo or three days.
(18:30):
I get depressed and I'm kind ofup person in general, and when
I get depressed I don't have amild one.
I was really dark and it wasjust.
I knew I was in a spiritualbattle and so I went out and,
you know, got on the treadmilland I got real sweaty and I took
a long walk and, you know,praise God and I feel a little
better.
And then I walked in the houseand on the television was the
(18:53):
news was depicting what washappening in Egypt during COVID.
The early.
This was like June, july, whenit first started, and you know
body bags and desperate, and thehead of all the Protestant
churches has become a goodfriend.
We've trained the Protestantpastors throughout all of Egypt
and so I said, okay, I was.
Who's hurting more than me?
Dr Zaki and all the pastorsthere.
(19:15):
So I had a Zoom call the nextday.
We have a conversation.
He goes, I and my family are OK, but we're barely surviving a
chance.
I mean completely unplanned.
He didn't know.
The only reason I reached outto you is because you're hurting
worse than me and I'm stuck andcan't get out of it.
So everything that's going tohappen from this point on is not
(19:37):
great leadership, some bigstrategy.
It's a hurting person justtrying to obey and in my
weakness, god, would you helpthis person?
So he says, oh, send me thatseries.
I said no, dr Zaki, I'mthinking about a series, because
as I saw COVID, I thought whatwould the Lord say to the world
right now If someone said, chip,you've got three weeks or five
(20:00):
weeks or two, whatever.
What is God's word to the earlymonths of COVID?
And I thought to myself youknow, not a lot different from
the very first book of the earlychurch Jews are running for
their lives, persecution hascome.
And James, the half-brother ofJesus it's the very first book
in the New Testament to theseJewish Christians that are
(20:22):
spread and he gives them athree-part the art of survival.
The A is there's an attitudeConsider it all.
Joy.
In the midst of this, god'sgoing to work in you, then
through you, and then there's aresource wisdom, there's
supernatural wisdom, which iswhat to do, when to do it, how
to do it, if you're willing todo whatever God says, which is a
challenge.
And then the last part of that,in the first 12 verses, is
(20:44):
there's a theology about lifeand perspective that allows you
to overcome discouragement andsee yourself from God's
perspective.
And that was on a Thursday and Iwent from being depressed to
making a couple of phone calls.
By Monday I had a guy with twocameras.
I took a PVC pipe and put asheet that looked like bricks on
it as a background and Istudied all weekend.
(21:07):
I taught it, but never likethis Did three messages sent
them.
By Friday they were in Egypt.
By the next Friday they weredubbed the following I think
Tuesday or so every pastor inEgypt it was.
You know these Zooms.
I mean I had pages and pagesand pages.
And Dr Zaki says look, we'rehurting, share it all Hour and a
(21:29):
half.
Then I did an hour and a halfof Q&A and I heard, I mean
people ask me, chip, why did Godlet my wife die?
And it was just crushing.
And our head of internationalwas with me and we got off of it
and he said, chip, I don'tthink that series that you
developed was just for Egypt,and he had worked with Billy
(21:50):
Graham for 10 years and heworked with Luis Palau for 13.
So he was connected all overthe world.
And the next week I found myselfwith 700 pastors from 300
cities in India, and I won't gointo it all, but it was for the
next 25 months, morning andevening.
Everyone offered it Right nowmedia, every organization,
(22:12):
worship pastors, morning andnight.
We would just encourage tens ofthousands of pastors.
And then that little bookletwent into about 32 different
languages.
And then, near the end of COVID, we went to them and we spent a
day and we do session one, andthen let them get in groups of
maybe four and they cried andthey wept as pastors India,
(22:35):
africa, latin America, southeastAsia.
And I look back and I think Iwas down and discouraged because
my circumstances were bad.
I was angry, I was frustratedand God used my weakness, my
struggle and a small baby stepin all the ministry I've ever
(23:01):
been in.
I think.
One of our international teammembers told me we've trained
339,000 or 400,000 pastors inlive events in the last three
and a half years.
That all grew out of thatmoment in COVID, and so I would
just want to say to people askGod, lord, okay, I don't like
(23:22):
what I'm going through with mymate.
I'm so worried about one of mychildren.
I'm depressed.
I've got a health issue'm goingthrough with my mate.
I'm so worried about one of mychildren.
I'm depressed.
I've got a health issue thatdoesn't seem to change.
We've had a split in our church.
I'm so mad at so-and-so.
Ask the question where's myfocus?
And then God, what's yourpurpose?
(23:42):
How could you use thesecircumstances?
That perspective changed mylife and it changed the
trajectory of everything I didup to the first 40 some years of
ministry.
Joy is the serious business ofheaven, as I've seen this happen
.
I mean now we've got nationalsin India and Dubai and Egypt and
(24:09):
Latin America.
None of these people I evenknew.
Now they're all on our team andI track and I hear what God is
doing in these rural villages inNepal and think, humanly
speaking, that happened becausea pretty immature pastor named
Chip got discouraged.
Then he lost perspective andgot really depressed and then he
(24:30):
chose to take a baby steptoward the light.
And God said I wanted you to bepositioned and, as we've all
celebrated these last five, sixyears, there is zero credit to
be taken by anyone.
I mean, it's not like well,what was your strategy?
Didn't have one, how did youthink it was work?
(24:50):
Had no idea.
What did you do?
We followed the light.
We just kept taking the nextbaby steps.
I just really want to encouragethose listening.
God has great and wonderful andsupernatural purposes and you
can choose to enter in andwonderful and supernatural
purposes and you can choose toenter in and some of the things
(25:11):
that you all talk about.
Why our hearts connect is butyou have to be in God's word so
you can hear his voice and youhave to be in community and
sharing.
I was able to say I made aphone call when it was dark.
I still remember we weredropping the dog off or
something and my wife went in tothe vet and I called a mentor.
He's 90.
He has been with me since I was28.
(25:34):
And I said I said, ac, I'm in adark spot and thoughts are going
through my mind that I'm there.
I mean I can't believe I'm eventhinking of them.
I have to get them out, wouldyou?
Would you listen?
And he's known me since heknows all my kids.
And I said, gosh, I mean like,don't be a pastor anymore, your
life is away.
(25:54):
I mean there were lies, but theykept going around and around in
my head and I couldn't get ridof them and I prayed and I
fasted and I just laid that outfor him and he listened,
encouraged me.
I just laid that out for himand he listened, encouraged me.
He called me or texted me everysingle day, probably for the
next 20 days.
How are you doing today?
Prayed for you.
Today we need people and Godrestored my joy and God worked
(26:21):
in my heart.
But we go through some darktimes that feel like that's the
key.
They feel like they'll neverchange.
We don't have to wait forcircumstances to change.
We can choose joy in the midstof them.
So that's my heart for thisbook.
Ellen Krause (26:35):
That's so powerful .
I just made a little notebecause I want to put it on my
board.
God can use our baby steps and,like you said, when we're in
these low, low, seemingly instates where we feel like it's
hopeless, yes, if we can justallow ourselves that one baby
(26:55):
step, I think of a couple at ourchurch who they had ended up
turning it like into a littleskit that was done at the front
of our church and about arelationship this couple had
developed with this man andlater you come to learn that it
was the man who was the drunkdriver that hit and killed their
(27:20):
son.
Wow, and you don't know thatuntil the very end, but you can
see how.
That's the joy we're talkingabout.
They saw that God had a biggerpurpose, a bigger plan, things
that we can't possiblyunderstand, and has really
(27:43):
impacted me as well.
And it's exciting to hear theimpact of this ministry of yours
has just gone all around theworld, because clearly everyone,
all around the world, we're allGod's people and they need to
hear this message as well.
Well, chip, as we start to wrapthings up here, I know you've
(28:03):
shared this message at variousconferences and broadcasts, and
could you share maybe one storythat someone about how this
truth has impacted their life?
Chip Ingram (28:17):
Yes, I get a lot of letters and a lot of emails and
I got a few just in the lastfew days, you know, a lady
saying I was really discouragedand we've had ongoing marriage
problems and in my mind I'veblamed my husband because he's
not doing this, he's not doingthat and I just keep feeding off
the negative.
And I heard this series and Ibegan to think about what are my
(28:42):
choices and how am I thinkingand what's God's purpose in it
and where is my hope?
Is my hope that I had thisperfect marriage or is my hope
that I can't have any joy in mylife until quote my husband
changes?
And you know what are myexpectations.
You know, and as she wentthrough that, she said just
thank you so much, for I knewwhat she meant.
(29:05):
It wasn't me, but for saving mylife and saving my marriage.
She says it didn't happenovernight, but it was me
beginning to recognize where mythinking was and one of the
things you know, I'm certain inthis book, but especially in
some other things, like the goodfriend Kyle Eidelman wrote a
(29:29):
book called Taking Every ThoughtCaptive.
He and I are good friends.
He's a pastor in Kentucky andone of the things I was just
going to mention is, as youchange your focus, you have to
change your inputs, and so asteady diet of news, an
addiction to our phone we allkind of talk about it as though,
(29:49):
yeah, it's really not good, wereally shouldn't do it.
And then everyone keeps doingit and I really just tell people
you are the product of yourthought life.
If you want to have joy, Iwould say, as one mentor told me
, invest your mind on thingsthat are timeless and then spend
a little bit of time on thingsthat are timely, because they
always change.
(30:10):
You don't want to make bigdecisions or make big
convictions about what's timely.
You want to base your life onwhat's timeless.
I've been in theseconversations, ellen.
It's like well, chip, thanks, Ireally understand.
I'm glad for you.
I don't really read the Biblethat much and you know I'm glad
you know pastors and people likeyou, and this isn't for people
(30:33):
like me, this is for all of us,ordinary.
I feel like I'm a very ordinaryChristian who was discipled by
a bricklayer with a high schooleducation and his life propelled
me to discover I had some giftsand become a pastor, and I'm
(30:53):
glad for seminary and languagesand theology, but to this day,
if I could trade my time with abricklayer.
Over all the time, and all thestudies and all the mentors he
taught me to meet with God everyday.
He taught me how to study theBible for myself.
So I heard God speak to me.
That has been the mostimportant and the most
(31:18):
sustaining thing of my wholelife.
I think a lot of the challengesof our brothers and sisters is
that basic aligning your lifewith scripture, meeting with
Jesus to get to know him, not sowe can get him to make our
lives work out the way we wantto.
My dream in my life is to helpChristians live like Christians,
(31:39):
because when I grew up, Iattended a church that didn't
believe the Bible and they saidone thing and lived another way,
and I rejected God, the Bible,everything.
And when I met some Christiansthat lived like Christians, they
weren't perfect, but they werereal, they were passionate, they
were honest and it was like Isaw Jesus.
And so that's my heart forthose listening to us, that we
(32:02):
have a kind, loving, just andholy God that longs for our
lives to flourish, and he's laidout.
This is how it works, and Ithink, as G K Chesterton once
said it's not that the Christianlife has been tried and it's
not workable.
It's rarely even been triedamong most Christians.
So that's our heart's desire.
Ellen Krause (32:23):
Thank you so much, Chip.
Your insight has reallyimpacted my heart and we've just
scratched the surface of what'sin your book, which is even
more incredible content.
Where can people learn moreabout?
I Choose Joy and your work.
Chip Ingram (32:38):
Well, they certainly can go to, you know,
livingontheedgeorg.
They can go to Amazon or anybookstore.
And then we have we do have aChip Ingram app.
We have fresh messages everyday, but we'll have the last six
months and they're all free.
And then at the bottom we havea little click on discipleship,
so that, much like what you alldo.
(32:58):
We have these eight-minute.
They're kind of mini teachingsand I'll walk through and teach
people how to study the Bible,how to journal, how to pray.
So those are a couple good waysto do it.
And, of course, listen to MoodyRadio.
That's always a good one.
Ellen Krause (33:13):
Excellent.
Well, we will make sure weinclude links to all of those in
our show notes.
Before we let you go, I have toask you a couple of our
favorite questions, and thefirst one is I know you probably
have a whole library of Bibles,but which Bible is your go-to
Bible and what translation is it?
Chip Ingram (33:31):
I kind of have two.
My go-to Bible is the NewAmerican Standard 1995.
And you know they keep updatingit just a little.
But one of the things thatBricklayer helped me with and it
was so was memorizing scripture.
And so I memorized hundreds ofscriptures in small books of the
Bible.
They're in the New AmericanStandard and so even when I read
(33:53):
another passage sometimes Imisquote it because part of it's
in my brain.
And then, especially innarratives I really like.
I like the NIV, I like the NIV84.
And again, they're allexcellent translations and ESV.
But those are probably my go-topassages.
(34:13):
And then, devotionally, youknow where I'm studying.
It's always nice to you know.
Check out Phillips translation.
We have so many good tools.
In fact, that's one of yourother questions, isn't it?
Ellen Krause (34:23):
Yes, Let me ask you this Do you have any
favorite Bible journalingsupplies?
Is that something that you do?
Chip Ingram (34:32):
Yes, In fact I kept saying on programs that I
journaled, and so our Living onthe Edge team, we have a prayer
journal and I feel likeeveryone's looking for how
exactly do you do that?
And so I write down in the verybeginning a few tips, because I
think journaling can either getto become a duty or a
(34:53):
performance or like, oh, Ididn't do it today and you miss
the point.
And so I kind of line out whatI think is the best way to do it
and find your own way.
And then it's kind of nice tohave, you know, a few quotes
just here and there to givepeople some perspective, but
mostly a lot of white space.
And, as I tell people,sometimes I'll journal five or
(35:15):
six pages, sometimes I won'tjournal for a couple of days.
I want to be explaining, I'mprocessing my heart out loud and
this is so convicting.
But I find I can think certainthings, but when I write them
out and I see them, it's a lotharder to lie to myself and to
lie to God.
And so I hope my journalsshortly after my death will be
(35:37):
burned because they're very raw.
But I find is honest.
You got to get honest with Godand you got to get honest with
yourself.
So that's been a very, verypowerful tool.
It may not be for everybody,but it's been a powerful tool
for me.
Ellen Krause (35:56):
Fantastic.
Ok, well, links, links to thoseas well.
Last question what's yourfavorite app or website for
Bible study tools?
Chip Ingram (36:11):
or website for Bible study tools.
I obviously use YouVersion on aregular basis and we have a lot
of reading plans in there, butmy favorite app is Logos.
It is after all those years ofstudying.
You know we had to.
You know three years of Greek,two years of Hebrew and have
every commentary and I push abutton and I put a cursor over
it and it'll it'll parse theverb for me and click word study
(36:31):
.
I thank God for the brilliantpeople who created and they have
them at different levels.
You know you don't have to benda Bible school.
You know there's.
I don't know they have a colorcoded ones, but it is.
Yeah, that's probably myfavorite Bible ever.
Ellen Krause (36:50):
Awesome.
Yes, I think that's ourfavorite as well.
It is clearly just a phenomenalresource.
Well, chip, thank you so muchfor joining us today and for
sharing such practical,spirit-filled wisdom.
Your insights from I Choose Joyare both timely and just deeply
needed by people.
(37:11):
So I appreciate yourauthenticity and just your
willingness to share.
So, thank you, guys are doing.
Chip Ingram (37:16):
And, as we said before we came on, the thrill to
get to do that with your grownchildren is really, really
special.
So God bless you guys andthanks.
Ellen Krause (37:34):
Thank you so much and to our listeners.
If this conversation encouragedyou, make sure to check out
Chip's book I Choose Joy.
You can also learn more abouthis teaching ministry Living on
the Edge through the links inour show notes.
As always, if this episodeblessed you, would you take just
a moment to leave a review orshare this with a friend?
(37:57):
It helps support our work andallows more women to discover
these conversations.
We love you all.
Thank you for being here.
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