September 24, 2024 • 36 mins
Wondering how to confidently navigate salary negotiations without feeling overwhelmed? In this episode of Coffee and Career Hour, we have you covered. Learn the secrets of effective compensation discussions, even when job postings leave you guessing. We share personal stories and expert insights, emphasizing the importance of research and networking to understand industry norms. We also discuss pay transparency laws in states like California and how to empower yourself in salary negotiations.
Discover why waiting until the later stages of the interview process before discussing compensation can be beneficial, and arm yourself with practical advice on setting realistic salary expectations. Resources like Salary.com, Payscale.com, and Glassdoor.com are your new best friends. We also delve into the utility of the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) and ONET for a comprehensive understanding of job growth and salary trends.
We wrap up with actionable strategies for handling job offers, from understanding the true salary range to requesting time for consideration. Learn why negotiating in person or via video call can give you the upper hand, and how asking for about 20% more than the initial offer is a good starting point. We highlight the importance of patience and preparation, offering one-on-one sessions for those needing extra support. Tune in for invaluable tips, personal anecdotes, and strategies to help you negotiate your salary with confidence and poise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, welcome back Arminie, welcome back MJ,
welcome back Coffee and CareerHour listeners.
Yes, thank you all for beinghere.
We are eternally, eternallygrateful.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And if you are new, welcome to Coffee and Career
Hour.
We are two career counselorswho are excited to explore all
of life's career relatedquestions with you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yes, and we hope that you find this podcast helpful
in all of your career journeys.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, well, today, what's today?
Thursday?
Thursday For us, Tuesday forthe listeners On this wonderful
Thursday evening.
What are we talking about, MJ?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Ooh, we're talking about one of the things that I
have never done before oh,that's right, that is right,
okay, well, that is salarynegotiation.
I have never negotiated mysalary, not by because I've been
scared, it's just never been alike, never been something I
(01:05):
needed to do, yeah, or have doneyet or wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yet it will happen, though I know it will happen.
It is a big, scary topic.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Absolutely, and I think it's absolutely normal to,
for whatever opinions happenaround negotiation, everyone has
different experiences, butwe're excited to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We definitely are experiences, but we're excited
to talk about it.
We definitely are.
So what sparked this topic forus was that this past week, I
did a wonderful, wonderfulworkshop with this really great
organization called the ArmenianEngineers and Scientists
Association, and it is anorganization that matches
current college students oryoung professionals, recent
(01:45):
grads in STEM fields likeengineering, science-based
majors, to mentors, and it also,in addition to the mentorship
program, has career workshopsthat they offer.
I do want to preface that it'snot only open to Armenians, so
for any listeners out there whomay be interested in this
organization, they're onLinkedIn, they're on Instagram
(02:07):
AESA.
You are welcome to check themout and potentially join if it's
a good fit for you.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Love that, Armanay, it's so cool that you had the
opportunity to present somethingwhere it sparked.
You presented the topic of jobsearch, correct?
Yes, that sparked essentially aton of different questions for
these individuals, which waswhat do you do after you get an
offer and do you negotiate thesalary?
Do you take it?
What kind of happens?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, yeah.
The attendees asked reallygreat questions and this
particular one stood out becauseI thought it was like oh yes,
let's talk about this.
So this particular question waswhen to have a discussion about
the salary when it's not postedon the job description.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yikes.
So let's say, in the US, thereare different states and cities
that have different lawsregarding around pay
transparency.
So for the sake of this episode, we're also going to be
referring to a lot of things andlaws, policies, best practices
in the US.
So we do want to preface thattoo.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, because it will vary by even within states.
It will vary Absolutely, butwith that said so, mj, what
would you say like if a jobposting doesn't have the salary
listed?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
How would you approach that?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
One, I would do some research on what type of
position it is.
And we can get into where youcan do some research and what
that looks like.
And we can get into where youcan do some research and what
that looks like.
But, funny enough, when I wasgraduating graduate school, I
had no idea what the averagesalary was for a counselor or an
academic advisor.
So my first instinct was to goto my advisors, my graduate
(03:56):
school advisors, and ask like,hey, what am I supposed to be
looking for?
Cause at the time there was anecessary in higher education.
I don't I don't quite rememberif their salary was listed or
not, but I remember being toldto look for a certain range, and
that's kind of where I basedoff my information from.
So that's where I went.
First, If a salary is notposted.
(04:17):
If it is posted, I would doother research on different
roles, similar roles, differentcompanies or organizations to
see if that's also salary thatmatches the industry.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Okay, yeah, I think that's really cool that you kind
of leveraged your network andasked around.
That is definitely somethingthat you can do in addition to
the online searches when we talkabout, like, some of the
websites that you can use thatare trustworthy and that have
accurate salary information.
We will be sharing all of thatin today, today's episode, but I
think it's cool to ask peoplewho are in the field that you
(04:49):
know and are comfortable askingyeah, and because I was a
student, I didn't feel weirdabout it because I was learning.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
so I felt like it was in that mentality where it was
okay to ask because in in oursociety, in our culture, money
is not something talked about.
Yeah, right, like, even evenamongst in higher education,
like we don't, we can justassume that you make like, we
all make similar, yeah, but it'snot until someone like is
asking or it's a topic that'sshared that you actually like
talk about it.
(05:16):
It's a taboo to talk about insociety.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I know Isn't that insane, but actually along those
same lines.
That is why the paytransparency laws came out
recently.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think they came out last year or in the past couple
of years In the past couple ofyears, I want to say within the
last five years, if I'm notmistaken.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, so the pay transparency laws basically
indicate that some states notall of the states in the US
actually abide by this, and itmight come to that in the future
, but as of right now, somestates, including California,
require job postings to indicatethe salary range and that's
(05:56):
actually caused a big like.
There was a lot of talk aboutit.
I remember when it came outbecause it's a big deal Like
before this law came out,everything was secretive.
Yeah, like you would hardlyever see a pay range posted on a
job description.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it wasn't until you are in some stage of the
interview process where theyactually mentioned it to you, or
even when you got offered thejob, you actually knew what you
were being paid.
And I do want to refer to that.
For these laws, even thoughthey're valid in some states,
sometimes the cities andcounties may have different laws
as well, so it's important tokind of be aware of where you
(06:31):
live.
So, for example, california,the laws may be different than
Colorado.
Let's say, in Californiaeverywhere is paid transparency,
but maybe in only some citiesin Colorado it is.
So it just depends, not sayingthat that's accurate, but it's
very important to be aware anddo your research.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
So, essentially, what we'regetting at is, even though
there's paid transparency laws,right now it's still fairly new
and it's really not across theboard in all places and in all
industries, so you may stillcome across job postings that
don't have the salary rangeposted.
Yeah, so what do we do in thatcase?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It's kind of scary, right, because you're
technically applying foropportunities where you have no
idea if what they're going topay you and if it's the same and
that kind of goes, depending onalso, like where you live, what
we earn here in California ascareer counselors, academic
advisors, may be very, verydifferent than what we'd, what
we'd make in like Kentucky, forexample.
Right, it could be like 20, 30%decrease because the city
(07:33):
economy looks different too.
So it all has to do with that.
But when you kind of find outwhat is being offered and what
is being paid is in theinterview process at some point,
and it does look a little bitbad if you ask that on the first
round.
Usually the the best practicerule of thumb is to wait until
(07:54):
it's brought up by the employer,the hiring manager, and it will
be brought up.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yep, definitely so, I would.
I always say to first roundit's actually a no, no,
definitely don't want to askthat.
The reason actually behind thatis because, yes, obviously
people apply to jobs.
They work for money because weneed to survive.
That's a given.
But when an employer is hiringa candidate, they don't want to
(08:20):
hire somebody who's just in itfor the money, exactly Right.
Like your qualifications to behired for this job need to be
skill based, knowledge based andinterest and passion based, not
necessarily like, oh, I onlyneed this job for money, so you
don't want to come across withthat energy.
Which is why it's a red flag ifyou ask in the first round,
because they might get the wrongidea about your intentions for
(08:41):
the position.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think in a general sense too.
There are some industries wherepeople are in it for the money
and others, like education,where people are not in it for
the money.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But even those industries, right, even those
industries.
You got to be good at what youdo, absolutely, and you're going
to enjoy it.
If you don't enjoy it, you'reless likely to be good at it,
and if you aren't good at it,you're not going to get the job.
Yeah, very true.
So you're in it for the money.
So the reality is that youstill have to be able to.
Your intention for theinterview is to get to know
about the companies on theinterviewees, and is employee
(09:20):
interviewees and it's.
Is this company a right fit forme, based on the projects
they're working on, their vision.
What do they want to contributeto society?
Yeah, and then on your end isto demonstrate I have the skills
and I'm in alignment with yourcompany.
That's the first few rounds.
It will come up later onwhether it's at the tail end of
the interview process orsometimes it happens that, like
when they give you the offer,they send it in the offer letter
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I will tell you my first full-time job.
I didn't know how much I wasbeing paid until I got the offer
letter.
Yeah, I, it wasn't disclosed,even the rain.
Oh, I don't think the law hadcome into place, because it was
still.
I think it came into place in2023.
Harmony yeah it was just acouple it was just a couple
years ago and I was was just acouple of years ago and I was
first hired in 2022.
I didn't know until I got myoffer letter and I didn't ask
(10:05):
because I needed a job, butthat's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
So I personally also remembergetting job offers where that
was the first time that I sawthe salary and I you know I
didn't know anything until thatpoint and I know that this was
already ingrained in me incollege to not ask.
So I never asked about it inthe interview process until they
(10:28):
sent me the offer letter.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and there are some best practices,
honestly, and a lot of tips andtricks when it comes to salary
negotiation, because it's notalways also just about the money
.
In this case, and what we'retalking about today, we're
focusing on the money, butthere's so many other things
that kind of come into thatnegotiation process, because
salary negotiation is one thing,but it's also negotiating
(10:53):
different things that make yourjob more feasible for you and
for the company.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, so some of those things could include like
remote work, hybrid workschedule especially now post
pandemic, that's been a bigthing.
That people can negotiate islike their work schedule, and
also it could be your benefitspackage that could be negotiated
.
Those are less common, I wouldsay, compared to the salary.
(11:18):
When people think ofnegotiation, the first thing
they think of is salary, but Ithink the schedule is another
really popular one these days.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Also, too.
We live in a state that'sheavily impacted by parking.
Parking and having access tothat is another one as well,
depending on how many daysyou're coming into the office,
if you're expected to as well.
Something else is like whenyou're talking about benefits
yes, medical we think of, likehealth benefits, but there's
(11:46):
also different benefits as itcomes like car rentals,
amusement park tickets, allthose different entertainment
things that someone may nottraditionally think of that also
exist as well.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah.
No, there are really reallycool benefits that companies
will provide to you once you'rean employee there.
So that stuff doesn't come intothe picture until you're
getting an offer letter.
So you're not going to knowwhat benefits package you have.
Usually in the job descriptionit'll say something like a
really great benefit package orsomething like that, with that
(12:17):
kind of wording, but they're notgoing to spell it out for you
until you have.
They'll say like medical vision, dental as the basics, but then
all the other perks that comefrom working at a certain
company.
That stuff you'll find out whenthey send you the offer letter.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So it's about being patient yeah, and that
information I I don't wantpeople to think that the person
interviewing you always has thatinformation too.
That's true, right?
So, honestly, the person andthe the department that's going
to know all about that is HR,right?
So when getting an offer letter, you're going to be either
contacted by the hiring manager,but they're going to be in
constant communication with HRbecause they're the people who
(12:52):
actually do the paperwork.
So if you have questions aboutsalary, negotiate, um, about
salary, and negotiation would bethrough the person who's
interviewing you, becausethey're in connection with the
HR department who's going toapprove whether or not that
there's funding.
But when it comes to all of thedetails regarding benefits and
if that's feasible as well,that's also going to go through
HR too.
So sometimes the personinterviewing you doesn't know
(13:16):
what those full benefits are andif there's an opportunity to
negotiate.
There's also a lot ofconversations that happen behind
closed doors.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
That is true.
That is true Especially, like,if you're being interviewed by a
committee.
That committee consists ofpeople who, like, maybe even
work outside of your department.
There's people who work at thesame level that you work.
They're not really thatinvolved in the HR stuff.
There's, like, your supervisorand manager, who might be the
one who's like in communicationwith HR, but HR sets the
policies.
There's a lot that happensbehind the scenes when it comes
(13:45):
to hiring.
So that is true that, like,even if you asked in the
interview process, they mightnot have the answer for you
anyway.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so don't necessarily take that as a red
flag on your end.
I've seen people ask and justbe like disappointed and and
it's, it's not the interviewer'sfault.
Sometimes they just they don't,they're not given enough
information.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, it's true, but rule of thumb, rule of thumb
don't ask about salary benefits,any of that, in the early
stages of the interview process,because those stages are
intended for you and theemployer to see if you're a
match based on your knowledge,your skills, your and your
long-term career goals and youralignment with their values.
(14:24):
Absolutely, you got toestablish that first, and then
you guys will end up either theywill bring it up at some point
in the interview or you wouldwait essentially until they send
you the job offer, and that'swhen you can take that
opportunity to negotiatewhatever is being offered to you
yeah, armen, a question for you.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So, let's say, applying to jobs here in
california?
Um, pay transparency law existshere.
Should I be doing my researchupon salary before coming into
the first round interview?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
yeah, always.
I think that having thatinformation for yourself is
going to be really beneficial.
Doesn't necessarily have tocome out in the interview
conversation until later, butknowing what you're working with
is really good to kind of gointo the interview with.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And so there are some really great ways you could do
research are some websites touse, and Armin and I often share
things with our clients as well, so again, preface that this is
mainly in the U?
S as well.
So the first one is salarycom.
It's a great website where youcan see an average range of
(15:30):
different salaries that existfor different roles as well, so
something that you may want toexplore and see how that might
work for you.
And if you don't find aparticular title because titles
can be developed by differentcompanies and things like that
you want to think about what isthe closest title or role to
this that I can also search to?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, salarycom is really popular.
That's probably the mostpopular one that I use to
recommend to clients, but thereare some other really great ones
like payscalecom.
Very similar dashboard, verysimilar process.
You will essentially create anaccount on here and once you
have an account, you're able togain insight into what similar
(16:13):
positions of what you're lookingfor, what they're paying, or at
least their ranges, are.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah.
The next one is glassdoorcom.
Glassdoor is, aside from beinglike a job board, it's also a
place where individuals canleave in reviews of their time
and experience at that certaincompany or organization, and
they also can tell you whattheir salary was as well.
So on there, there's alsodifferent ranges that you can
(16:40):
look up for different roles too.
There's a lot of information onGlassdoor.
Something to note is, when youmake an account, you do have to
offer up information to alsoreceive information, so know
that it's not just there foreveryone to see.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, it'll ask you to essentially review a company
that you worked at to give youso that you could gain access to
an account there.
There is like, if you don'thave an account on glassdoor,
you could still search up someinformation, but it's going to
be very limited info yeah, ifyou really want the full access,
you do need to have a profile,but glassdoor is a really
popular one as well.
(17:13):
the other one is indeed you allmight be familiar with indeed,
which mostly we use Indeed forjob search, so as a job search
database.
But on one of the tabs, inaddition to looking for jobs on
there, there's company reviewsand there is find salaries.
Yeah so you got those two tabsto work with, and when you put
find salaries, essentially itasks you what job title are you
(17:36):
looking for and where, so whatcountry?
And then you can searchaccordingly.
It also help allows you tofilter salaries by industry.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I love that so much yeah, and it gives you average
salaries for each industry,which is really cool to see, uh
like at least the overall rangethat you're working with within
the industries that you'reconsidering it's so cool to see
how these have evolved over time, because they weren't like this
a few years ago these websites,so it's awesome.
Yeah, I think more and morewebsites are offering up the
(18:10):
salary piece because probablyfrom the pay transparency laws
that came out, there's moreinformation out there about
salaries that didn't existbefore, because there were no
laws requiring people to betransparent.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Very true.
The next two I'll talk about aremore governmental, us-based
websites, which are the Bureauof Labor Statistics and ONET.
Essentially, both sites feed offof information, off of one
another, so think about these ascareer exploration websites.
I'll talk about the BLS, theBureau of Labor Statistics, more
because on there you can seedifferent occupation groups and
(18:47):
then from there, you can seespecific titles In there.
It is so cool because it'lltell you the current pay that is
being offered on average, andthen it also gives you a pay
outlook so you can see, withinthe next 10 years, the
progression of pay and whatthat'll look like, as well as
job outlooks too.
So it's very neat to see how,as jobs grow, the pay will also
(19:09):
grow and the need for it tothink about those two as the
same.
O-net will also do the samewhen you are searching for
different careers not majors,different professions.
When you click on there, if youscroll down to specific, it
gives you a lot of information.
Right underneath the skills andthings like that, it'll talk
about pay and what that lookslike, depending on what state
(19:30):
you're in.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, I love it.
O-net and BLS are really,really popular in my work, like
I use it so often.
I love the feature on ONA whereit has, like, the bright
outlook.
It has a cute little sun nextto the position or occupation
title that shows you in the next10 years or so if this
(19:51):
occupation is gonna increase andit has a bright outlook.
It's really good.
It's a good way to kind of seewhat's happening in the job
market and where maybe you canfocus your efforts on.
But beyond those two, the lastresource that we want to share
that will help you gain salaryinformation and just
occupational information iscareer contessa.
It's a really great website.
(20:13):
They also their resource sitefor women specifically, but you
could essentially use theirsalary information however you
identify.
But Career Contessa is aresource site and they all have
their own podcast.
They have a lot of greatinformation on their website too
, and they specifically havethis resource called Salary
(20:35):
Project, and the Salary Projectis an online database that gives
you full access to thousands ofsalaries that you could compare
essentially, and so you wouldcreate your profile and input
your information based on theindustry that you're in and what
salary you're making, and it'sanonymous and then from there
(20:56):
it'll show you like the databaseof other people who have
inputted their information onthe salary project, so that way
they're creating a database ofdifferent salaries.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That's so awesome.
I love that because it's like acommunity coming together to
support a community, and it's sonice because, again, this is
one of the things that's notoften talked about, so it's
amazing to see people withdifferent platforms put that
knowledge to good use.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, you know, back in the day like 10 years ago,
when I first started in thisindustry and there were no pay
transparency laws, there was awebsite specifically for our
industry and higher educationthat you could go secretly look
up people's salaries.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Oh my goodness, it was secret, only exclusive info.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like you would only hear about it through gossip,
like that was not something thatanyone would talk about.
As far as an actual resource,yeah, there was a secret website
we could search for people'ssalaries.
That's great.
So, things have come a long,long way since then.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's so cool.
Nothing is secret anymore.
Everything's on the internet.
So yeah that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
So, with that said everybody, we do highly
encourage you to be informedabout the salaries within the
industries that you'reinterested in is really
important to know what you'reworking with.
But at the same time, ininterviews, that is not the
place to have thoseconversations until you've
established that you're a goodfit for the role.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Don't talk about it during theinterview unless it's brought up
.
Sometimes hiring managers willsay just to confirm or,
depending on what round you'rein or how far you're in, or if
you're the final candidates,they'll confirm, sometimes like
hey, this is what we're workingwith.
That's your opportunity.
Where it's not to negotiatebecause you haven't been offered
.
Do not negotiate until you youhaven't been offered.
Do not negotiate until you havebeen offered the role.
(22:44):
Let me let's say that one moretime Do not negotiate until
you've been offered the role.
If they say this is what we'reworking with, my guidance is to
just accept so you can moveforward with the interview
process and then you reflect onif that number or if that range
matches what you're looking foras well, because you don't want
to shoot yourself in the foot bystarting to talk about that.
Haven't gone through theinterview or they haven't made a
(23:06):
decision yet, and what yourespond is the decision maker
for you.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yep.
The one caveat to all of thisis and this question that come
up in the workshop is how aboutif I'm talking to a recruiter In
the very, very beginning phaseof the job search process?
Your initial initialconversation may be with a
recruiter.
That's different.
The recruiter's job is to getyou, get the company, the right
(23:31):
match, so the recruiter can bemore transparent about these
things like salary and what thejob is like, what the company is
like, so that they can makesure that you're a right fit
before they recommend you to thecompany right?
And so when you're talking to arecruiter, you can have a
conversation about at least thesalary range and what you're
working with, to know whatyou're getting into before you
(23:53):
apply and actually startinterviewing with the company.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, and they do this sometimes because people
will put the most ridiculousranges ever and they'll put, for
example, if it's like let'sthink about a fake number 20,000
to 60,000, and it's nowherenear 60,000.
So a recruiter's job is to tellyou the actual range of what
they're going for.
So if they're going for more,if they're going more for like
(24:17):
30 to 40,000, the recruiter willlet you know instead of saying,
oh yeah, you can go from 20 to60.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, exactly so.
It's a more realisticconversation with the recruiter
for sure.
So that is a caveat to all ofthis.
Now, you may not always beworking with the recruiter.
Those are very specificinstances.
So make sure you know who it isyou're talking to, if it's the
employer or the recruiter sothat way you know what type of
(24:44):
conversation you can be havingwith them yeah, so you
definitely know to do yourresearch.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
um, there's a lot of mixed guidance out there on the
internet, right?
So, coming from two people whowho advise students every week,
you want to be sure to have anidea of what you're looking for,
right?
So do your research beforehand,before you go in the interview
and just wait till you get thatoffer to negotiate.
Just be patient.
(25:11):
If it's offered, then you cannegotiate.
Sometimes in that process therecruiter is also making the
decision.
Let's say, if it's between twoor three candidates, which
candidate is also going to meetwhat they're looking for?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, that's true, that is true, and we will
actually, in our next episode,talk about negotiation tips and
tactics, but today we'll kind ofgive you some of the basics.
Once you're in that phase ofyou get the job offer, you know
what the salary is.
Now you got to make a decision.
Do you accept, do you negotiate?
(25:45):
What do you do?
What's your general rule ofthumb about this, mj?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
If I'm talking about general rule of thumb, um, when
it comes to do I accept, well,it depends on what I'm looking
for, right?
Um, this is where you have todo and yourself see what you
need to survive in, whateverstate you're living in, and, if
you can, you should have notnecessarily a specific number,
but somewhere around a goal ofwhat you're meeting and then
(26:10):
from there, if that were, ifthat job offers you that target
goal, what you're saying for youcan go for it.
What I learned, what I didn'tdo but have learned since then,
is never say yes immediately,even if you're going to accept
it and know you are.
Give yourself at least 24 hoursto sleep on it and then go from
there.
They're not going to offersomeone the job within 24 hours.
(26:31):
They're going to wait till yourespond.
So don't do what MJ did.
Don't say yes on the spot I wasin a different situation but
think on it and then go fromthere.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, definitely.
It's always a good idea tothink on it, reflect on it.
You might get really excited inthe moment when you get the job
offer, but then you want togive yourself the space and the
time to really consider itbefore you make a decision.
So one thing about that too isI always recommend not giving
your answer over the phone butgiving it over email.
(27:01):
So a lot of times we'll seethat the employer will call you
to give you the offer, becauseit's more personal that way,
which is great.
In that conversation you mightbe excited, you might be feeling
a lot of different emotions andyou don't want to make a hash
decision.
So in that moment I would saylike thank them for the job
offer and for the time and theopportunity, and let them know
(27:25):
that you're really excited aboutthis position and ask them how
long do I have to make my finaldecision?
And they'll give you like oh,we want it by like in the next
three days, or something alongthose lines.
Sometimes they'll say like oh,we really need to know really
quickly because we're trying tomove forward in the hiring
process.
That's when you can ask likecan I have at least 24 hours or
(27:46):
at least along that timeline,and usually they're okay with it
.
Once you establish that, youfollow up with an email with
your decision, and in that emailis when you can do the
negotiation process.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
The negotiation process canhappen in so many different ways
.
If it's going to be aconversation, I would not have
that conversation through email.
That's where I would say if youcan meet in person, it's always
better to have thatface-to-face interaction.
Or if next best thing is likeZoom video call and then, if
worse comes to worse, it's aphone call, this is where you
(28:19):
can use tools like ai to helpyou really like prepare the
language that you want to use.
Don't have ai write the emailor the out the script for you,
but have it.
Let you generate ideas towardswhat you're looking for, because
this discussion can also bringup a lot of nerves in you yeah
and you don't want to sound notconfident when talking about
this, because this is yourmoment to really share your
(28:41):
skills, examples and yourreasons for why you deserve x, x
number, right.
So if I sound unsure of myself,you're gonna be like why am I
gonna pay you if you don't evensound sure of what you can do?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
yeah, and a recruiter and a hiring manager is always
expecting you to negotiate, sodon't think that you're catching
them by surprise oh yeah, theywill actually offer you a lower
it's common practice a lowersalary in expecting that you're
gonna negotiate and the commonrule of thumb of how much to
negotiate, because this is areally common question that we
(29:12):
get.
So how much more can I ask for?
20% more than what they'reoffering you 20%.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Holy crap, isn't that insane.
Yeah, that is almost one-fourthof the entire salary that is a
lot.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So that's the rule of thumb, and in knowing that more
often than not you're not goingto be, they're not going to
agree to the 20%, but if you askfor the 20%, you're probably
they're going to meet you in themiddle around 10% more than
what they offered you.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, my, my thought is is, for example, let's say,
if you're wanting this is superlow, like 30,000 a year, right,
let's say, that's your goal, butthey're offering you 25, ask
for 35.
So then you can go down to whatyou want and if that works, try
, try to meet somewhere in themiddle, always have the number
you don't want to go past orbelow, and then have the number
(30:05):
that you're aiming for, and thenalways find somewhere you're
comfortable in the middle tooyeah, exactly so there are ways
you can write that.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
So, yes, I agree in that you should have this
conversation over phone or orvideo or so forth, not over
email, but usually the firstmessage goes out in email,
correct?
So like when you follow up,let's say, after they give you
the job offer, you follow up andsay thank you so much, et
cetera.
I have had some time to thinkabout it and I would like to
(30:35):
accept this offer.
However, I'd like to negotiateX, y and Z things in the job
description and that's where youcan write a really beautiful,
professional, confident emailabout why you deserve to get
this negotiation, this highersalary or whatever other pieces
you're negotiating, and then youcan end that email with like I
(30:55):
love, I'm open to having aconversation about this further
and see what they say.
I've done that before for myactually for my UCLA job.
I did negotiate and it workedout really well.
They did follow up on the emailand actually give me what I had
asked for.
I didn't at the time know that20% was what you could negotiate
(31:18):
and I definitely didn't feelconfident enough to like
negotiate that much.
It felt scary to do that, andso I definitely negotiated a lot
less percentage than that, butwhatever I did ask for, I'm
really grateful that they wereable to meet.
But we wrote a beautiful email.
My husband and I, we sat down.
We brainstormed.
We're like why do I deservethis?
What is my minimum that I'mneeding?
(31:39):
It has to be more than what I'mcurrently making so that I can
make the switch and all of thesethings.
Like we brainstormed, we wrotethe email.
This was before AI, by the way.
We wrote the email and it didend up working out nicely, but
it is the initial conversationcan happen in the email and,
depending on if they want tohave a further like in depth
(31:59):
conversation with you or theymight just respond and approve
via email.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yes, I 100% agree.
I also want to add too if theyoffer a new number in the email,
do not sign the first offerletter they send you.
Make sure they send you a newoffer letter with the correct
amount that's on there and thenyou sign that one.
Sometimes employers would belike, okay, great, we agreed on
that over number via email.
Sign the offer letter andyou're like, no, yeah, you say
(32:26):
no, I will sign a new offerletter, and there is a polite
and professional way to do thatas well.
Right, you're not just going torefuse so definitely again.
Remember to have a new offerletter with that amount and
everything you discussed.
Clearly, and it's okay if thattakes one or two days.
They're going to be rushing toget you in there, so you should
be patient as well.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah yeah.
There's a whole process to allof this and if you are in this
phase you're thinking aboutnegotiating, or you don't know
how to draft the email, or youdon't know how to develop the
examples of what makes youqualified to get this
negotiation.
That's where mj and I can helpyou all out in our one-on-one
(33:06):
sessions, where we couldactually sit down with you and
have that conversation and helpyou build out your email to them
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
We are here to help you build your confidence in all
areas of career, and this isone that makes a lot of people
nervous.
So reach out to us, listen tothis podcast, save podcast.
Save it, put it in your pocket,share it with a friend, share
it on social media.
Whatever you do, remember thatwe're here for you.
Yeah, welcome back Arminie, welcome back MJ,
welcome back Coffee and CareerHour listeners.
Yes, thank you all for beinghere.
We are eternally, eternallygrateful.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And if you are new, welcome to Coffee and Career
Hour.
We are two career counselorswho are excited to explore all
of life's career relatedquestions with you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yes, and we hope that you find this podcast helpful
in all of your career journeys.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, well, today, what's today?
Thursday?
Thursday For us, Tuesday forthe listeners On this wonderful
Thursday evening.
What are we talking about, MJ?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Ooh, we're talking about one of the things that I
have never done before oh,that's right, that is right,
okay, well, that is salarynegotiation.
I have never negotiated mysalary, not by because I've been
scared, it's just never been alike, never been something I
(01:05):
needed to do, yeah, or have doneyet or wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yet it will happen, though I know it will happen.
It is a big, scary topic.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Absolutely, and I think it's absolutely normal to,
for whatever opinions happenaround negotiation, everyone has
different experiences, butwe're excited to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We definitely are experiences, but we're excited
to talk about it.
We definitely are.
So what sparked this topic forus was that this past week, I
did a wonderful, wonderfulworkshop with this really great
organization called the ArmenianEngineers and Scientists
Association, and it is anorganization that matches
current college students oryoung professionals, recent
(01:45):
grads in STEM fields likeengineering, science-based
majors, to mentors, and it also,in addition to the mentorship
program, has career workshopsthat they offer.
I do want to preface that it'snot only open to Armenians, so
for any listeners out there whomay be interested in this
organization, they're onLinkedIn, they're on Instagram
(02:07):
AESA.
You are welcome to check themout and potentially join if it's
a good fit for you.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Love that, Armanay, it's so cool that you had the
opportunity to present somethingwhere it sparked.
You presented the topic of jobsearch, correct?
Yes, that sparked essentially aton of different questions for
these individuals, which waswhat do you do after you get an
offer and do you negotiate thesalary?
Do you take it?
What kind of happens?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, yeah.
The attendees asked reallygreat questions and this
particular one stood out becauseI thought it was like oh yes,
let's talk about this.
So this particular question waswhen to have a discussion about
the salary when it's not postedon the job description.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yikes.
So let's say, in the US, thereare different states and cities
that have different lawsregarding around pay
transparency.
So for the sake of this episode, we're also going to be
referring to a lot of things andlaws, policies, best practices
in the US.
So we do want to preface thattoo.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, because it will vary by even within states.
It will vary Absolutely, butwith that said so, mj, what
would you say like if a jobposting doesn't have the salary
listed?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
How would you approach that?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
One, I would do some research on what type of
position it is.
And we can get into where youcan do some research and what
that looks like.
And we can get into where youcan do some research and what
that looks like.
But, funny enough, when I wasgraduating graduate school, I
had no idea what the averagesalary was for a counselor or an
academic advisor.
So my first instinct was to goto my advisors, my graduate
(03:56):
school advisors, and ask like,hey, what am I supposed to be
looking for?
Cause at the time there was anecessary in higher education.
I don't I don't quite rememberif their salary was listed or
not, but I remember being toldto look for a certain range, and
that's kind of where I basedoff my information from.
So that's where I went.
First, If a salary is notposted.
(04:17):
If it is posted, I would doother research on different
roles, similar roles, differentcompanies or organizations to
see if that's also salary thatmatches the industry.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Okay, yeah, I think that's really cool that you kind
of leveraged your network andasked around.
That is definitely somethingthat you can do in addition to
the online searches when we talkabout, like, some of the
websites that you can use thatare trustworthy and that have
accurate salary information.
We will be sharing all of thatin today, today's episode, but I
think it's cool to ask peoplewho are in the field that you
(04:49):
know and are comfortable askingyeah, and because I was a
student, I didn't feel weirdabout it because I was learning.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
so I felt like it was in that mentality where it was
okay to ask because in in oursociety, in our culture, money
is not something talked about.
Yeah, right, like, even evenamongst in higher education,
like we don't, we can justassume that you make like, we
all make similar, yeah, but it'snot until someone like is
asking or it's a topic that'sshared that you actually like
talk about it.
(05:16):
It's a taboo to talk about insociety.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I know Isn't that insane, but actually along those
same lines.
That is why the paytransparency laws came out
recently.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think they came out last year or in the past couple
of years In the past couple ofyears, I want to say within the
last five years, if I'm notmistaken.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, so the pay transparency laws basically
indicate that some states notall of the states in the US
actually abide by this, and itmight come to that in the future
, but as of right now, somestates, including California,
require job postings to indicatethe salary range and that's
(05:56):
actually caused a big like.
There was a lot of talk aboutit.
I remember when it came outbecause it's a big deal Like
before this law came out,everything was secretive.
Yeah, like you would hardlyever see a pay range posted on a
job description.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it wasn't until you are in some stage of the
interview process where theyactually mentioned it to you, or
even when you got offered thejob, you actually knew what you
were being paid.
And I do want to refer to that.
For these laws, even thoughthey're valid in some states,
sometimes the cities andcounties may have different laws
as well, so it's important tokind of be aware of where you
(06:31):
live.
So, for example, california,the laws may be different than
Colorado.
Let's say, in Californiaeverywhere is paid transparency,
but maybe in only some citiesin Colorado it is.
So it just depends, not sayingthat that's accurate, but it's
very important to be aware anddo your research.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
So, essentially, what we'regetting at is, even though
there's paid transparency laws,right now it's still fairly new
and it's really not across theboard in all places and in all
industries, so you may stillcome across job postings that
don't have the salary rangeposted.
Yeah, so what do we do in thatcase?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It's kind of scary, right, because you're
technically applying foropportunities where you have no
idea if what they're going topay you and if it's the same and
that kind of goes, depending onalso, like where you live, what
we earn here in California ascareer counselors, academic
advisors, may be very, verydifferent than what we'd, what
we'd make in like Kentucky, forexample.
Right, it could be like 20, 30%decrease because the city
(07:33):
economy looks different too.
So it all has to do with that.
But when you kind of find outwhat is being offered and what
is being paid is in theinterview process at some point,
and it does look a little bitbad if you ask that on the first
round.
Usually the the best practicerule of thumb is to wait until
(07:54):
it's brought up by the employer,the hiring manager, and it will
be brought up.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yep, definitely so, I would.
I always say to first roundit's actually a no, no,
definitely don't want to askthat.
The reason actually behind thatis because, yes, obviously
people apply to jobs.
They work for money because weneed to survive.
That's a given.
But when an employer is hiringa candidate, they don't want to
(08:20):
hire somebody who's just in itfor the money, exactly Right.
Like your qualifications to behired for this job need to be
skill based, knowledge based andinterest and passion based, not
necessarily like, oh, I onlyneed this job for money, so you
don't want to come across withthat energy.
Which is why it's a red flag ifyou ask in the first round,
because they might get the wrongidea about your intentions for
(08:41):
the position.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think in a general sense too.
There are some industries wherepeople are in it for the money
and others, like education,where people are not in it for
the money.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But even those industries, right, even those
industries.
You got to be good at what youdo, absolutely, and you're going
to enjoy it.
If you don't enjoy it, you'reless likely to be good at it,
and if you aren't good at it,you're not going to get the job.
Yeah, very true.
So you're in it for the money.
So the reality is that youstill have to be able to.
Your intention for theinterview is to get to know
about the companies on theinterviewees, and is employee
(09:20):
interviewees and it's.
Is this company a right fit forme, based on the projects
they're working on, their vision.
What do they want to contributeto society?
Yeah, and then on your end isto demonstrate I have the skills
and I'm in alignment with yourcompany.
That's the first few rounds.
It will come up later onwhether it's at the tail end of
the interview process orsometimes it happens that, like
when they give you the offer,they send it in the offer letter
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I will tell you my first full-time job.
I didn't know how much I wasbeing paid until I got the offer
letter.
Yeah, I, it wasn't disclosed,even the rain.
Oh, I don't think the law hadcome into place, because it was
still.
I think it came into place in2023.
Harmony yeah it was just acouple it was just a couple
years ago and I was was just acouple of years ago and I was
first hired in 2022.
I didn't know until I got myoffer letter and I didn't ask
(10:05):
because I needed a job, butthat's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
So I personally also remembergetting job offers where that
was the first time that I sawthe salary and I you know I
didn't know anything until thatpoint and I know that this was
already ingrained in me incollege to not ask.
So I never asked about it inthe interview process until they
(10:28):
sent me the offer letter.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and there are some best practices,
honestly, and a lot of tips andtricks when it comes to salary
negotiation, because it's notalways also just about the money
.
In this case, and what we'retalking about today, we're
focusing on the money, butthere's so many other things
that kind of come into thatnegotiation process, because
salary negotiation is one thing,but it's also negotiating
(10:53):
different things that make yourjob more feasible for you and
for the company.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, so some of those things could include like
remote work, hybrid workschedule especially now post
pandemic, that's been a bigthing.
That people can negotiate islike their work schedule, and
also it could be your benefitspackage that could be negotiated
.
Those are less common, I wouldsay, compared to the salary.
(11:18):
When people think ofnegotiation, the first thing
they think of is salary, but Ithink the schedule is another
really popular one these days.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Also, too.
We live in a state that'sheavily impacted by parking.
Parking and having access tothat is another one as well,
depending on how many daysyou're coming into the office,
if you're expected to as well.
Something else is like whenyou're talking about benefits
yes, medical we think of, likehealth benefits, but there's
(11:46):
also different benefits as itcomes like car rentals,
amusement park tickets, allthose different entertainment
things that someone may nottraditionally think of that also
exist as well.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah.
No, there are really reallycool benefits that companies
will provide to you once you'rean employee there.
So that stuff doesn't come intothe picture until you're
getting an offer letter.
So you're not going to knowwhat benefits package you have.
Usually in the job descriptionit'll say something like a
really great benefit package orsomething like that, with that
(12:17):
kind of wording, but they're notgoing to spell it out for you
until you have.
They'll say like medical vision, dental as the basics, but then
all the other perks that comefrom working at a certain
company.
That stuff you'll find out whenthey send you the offer letter.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So it's about being patient yeah, and that
information I I don't wantpeople to think that the person
interviewing you always has thatinformation too.
That's true, right?
So, honestly, the person andthe the department that's going
to know all about that is HR,right?
So when getting an offer letter, you're going to be either
contacted by the hiring manager,but they're going to be in
constant communication with HRbecause they're the people who
(12:52):
actually do the paperwork.
So if you have questions aboutsalary, negotiate, um, about
salary, and negotiation would bethrough the person who's
interviewing you, becausethey're in connection with the
HR department who's going toapprove whether or not that
there's funding.
But when it comes to all of thedetails regarding benefits and
if that's feasible as well,that's also going to go through
HR too.
So sometimes the personinterviewing you doesn't know
(13:16):
what those full benefits are andif there's an opportunity to
negotiate.
There's also a lot ofconversations that happen behind
closed doors.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
That is true.
That is true Especially, like,if you're being interviewed by a
committee.
That committee consists ofpeople who, like, maybe even
work outside of your department.
There's people who work at thesame level that you work.
They're not really thatinvolved in the HR stuff.
There's, like, your supervisorand manager, who might be the
one who's like in communicationwith HR, but HR sets the
policies.
There's a lot that happensbehind the scenes when it comes
(13:45):
to hiring.
So that is true that, like,even if you asked in the
interview process, they mightnot have the answer for you
anyway.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so don't necessarily take that as a red
flag on your end.
I've seen people ask and justbe like disappointed and and
it's, it's not the interviewer'sfault.
Sometimes they just they don't,they're not given enough
information.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, it's true, but rule of thumb, rule of thumb
don't ask about salary benefits,any of that, in the early
stages of the interview process,because those stages are
intended for you and theemployer to see if you're a
match based on your knowledge,your skills, your and your
long-term career goals and youralignment with their values.
(14:24):
Absolutely, you got toestablish that first, and then
you guys will end up either theywill bring it up at some point
in the interview or you wouldwait essentially until they send
you the job offer, and that'swhen you can take that
opportunity to negotiatewhatever is being offered to you
yeah, armen, a question for you.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So, let's say, applying to jobs here in
california?
Um, pay transparency law existshere.
Should I be doing my researchupon salary before coming into
the first round interview?
Speaker 1 (14:55):
yeah, always.
I think that having thatinformation for yourself is
going to be really beneficial.
Doesn't necessarily have tocome out in the interview
conversation until later, butknowing what you're working with
is really good to kind of gointo the interview with.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And so there are some really great ways you could do
research are some websites touse, and Armin and I often share
things with our clients as well, so again, preface that this is
mainly in the U?
S as well.
So the first one is salarycom.
It's a great website where youcan see an average range of
(15:30):
different salaries that existfor different roles as well, so
something that you may want toexplore and see how that might
work for you.
And if you don't find aparticular title because titles
can be developed by differentcompanies and things like that
you want to think about what isthe closest title or role to
this that I can also search to?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, salarycom is really popular.
That's probably the mostpopular one that I use to
recommend to clients, but thereare some other really great ones
like payscalecom.
Very similar dashboard, verysimilar process.
You will essentially create anaccount on here and once you
have an account, you're able togain insight into what similar
(16:13):
positions of what you're lookingfor, what they're paying, or at
least their ranges, are.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah.
The next one is glassdoorcom.
Glassdoor is, aside from beinglike a job board, it's also a
place where individuals canleave in reviews of their time
and experience at that certaincompany or organization, and
they also can tell you whattheir salary was as well.
So on there, there's alsodifferent ranges that you can
(16:40):
look up for different roles too.
There's a lot of information onGlassdoor.
Something to note is, when youmake an account, you do have to
offer up information to alsoreceive information, so know
that it's not just there foreveryone to see.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, it'll ask you to essentially review a company
that you worked at to give youso that you could gain access to
an account there.
There is like, if you don'thave an account on glassdoor,
you could still search up someinformation, but it's going to
be very limited info yeah, ifyou really want the full access,
you do need to have a profile,but glassdoor is a really
popular one as well.
(17:13):
the other one is indeed you allmight be familiar with indeed,
which mostly we use Indeed forjob search, so as a job search
database.
But on one of the tabs, inaddition to looking for jobs on
there, there's company reviewsand there is find salaries.
Yeah so you got those two tabsto work with, and when you put
find salaries, essentially itasks you what job title are you
(17:36):
looking for and where, so whatcountry?
And then you can searchaccordingly.
It also help allows you tofilter salaries by industry.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I love that so much yeah, and it gives you average
salaries for each industry,which is really cool to see, uh
like at least the overall rangethat you're working with within
the industries that you'reconsidering it's so cool to see
how these have evolved over time, because they weren't like this
a few years ago these websites,so it's awesome.
Yeah, I think more and morewebsites are offering up the
(18:10):
salary piece because probablyfrom the pay transparency laws
that came out, there's moreinformation out there about
salaries that didn't existbefore, because there were no
laws requiring people to betransparent.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Very true.
The next two I'll talk about aremore governmental, us-based
websites, which are the Bureauof Labor Statistics and ONET.
Essentially, both sites feed offof information, off of one
another, so think about these ascareer exploration websites.
I'll talk about the BLS, theBureau of Labor Statistics, more
because on there you can seedifferent occupation groups and
(18:47):
then from there, you can seespecific titles In there.
It is so cool because it'lltell you the current pay that is
being offered on average, andthen it also gives you a pay
outlook so you can see, withinthe next 10 years, the
progression of pay and whatthat'll look like, as well as
job outlooks too.
So it's very neat to see how,as jobs grow, the pay will also
(19:09):
grow and the need for it tothink about those two as the
same.
O-net will also do the samewhen you are searching for
different careers not majors,different professions.
When you click on there, if youscroll down to specific, it
gives you a lot of information.
Right underneath the skills andthings like that, it'll talk
about pay and what that lookslike, depending on what state
(19:30):
you're in.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, I love it.
O-net and BLS are really,really popular in my work, like
I use it so often.
I love the feature on ONA whereit has, like, the bright
outlook.
It has a cute little sun nextto the position or occupation
title that shows you in the next10 years or so if this
(19:51):
occupation is gonna increase andit has a bright outlook.
It's really good.
It's a good way to kind of seewhat's happening in the job
market and where maybe you canfocus your efforts on.
But beyond those two, the lastresource that we want to share
that will help you gain salaryinformation and just
occupational information iscareer contessa.
It's a really great website.
(20:13):
They also their resource sitefor women specifically, but you
could essentially use theirsalary information however you
identify.
But Career Contessa is aresource site and they all have
their own podcast.
They have a lot of greatinformation on their website too
, and they specifically havethis resource called Salary
(20:35):
Project, and the Salary Projectis an online database that gives
you full access to thousands ofsalaries that you could compare
essentially, and so you wouldcreate your profile and input
your information based on theindustry that you're in and what
salary you're making, and it'sanonymous and then from there
(20:56):
it'll show you like the databaseof other people who have
inputted their information onthe salary project, so that way
they're creating a database ofdifferent salaries.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That's so awesome.
I love that because it's like acommunity coming together to
support a community, and it's sonice because, again, this is
one of the things that's notoften talked about, so it's
amazing to see people withdifferent platforms put that
knowledge to good use.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, you know, back in the day like 10 years ago,
when I first started in thisindustry and there were no pay
transparency laws, there was awebsite specifically for our
industry and higher educationthat you could go secretly look
up people's salaries.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Oh my goodness, it was secret, only exclusive info.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like you would only hear about it through gossip,
like that was not something thatanyone would talk about.
As far as an actual resource,yeah, there was a secret website
we could search for people'ssalaries.
That's great.
So, things have come a long,long way since then.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's so cool.
Nothing is secret anymore.
Everything's on the internet.
So yeah that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
So, with that said everybody, we do highly
encourage you to be informedabout the salaries within the
industries that you'reinterested in is really
important to know what you'reworking with.
But at the same time, ininterviews, that is not the
place to have thoseconversations until you've
established that you're a goodfit for the role.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Don't talk about it during theinterview unless it's brought up
.
Sometimes hiring managers willsay just to confirm or,
depending on what round you'rein or how far you're in, or if
you're the final candidates,they'll confirm, sometimes like
hey, this is what we're workingwith.
That's your opportunity.
Where it's not to negotiatebecause you haven't been offered
.
Do not negotiate until you youhaven't been offered.
Do not negotiate until you havebeen offered the role.
(22:44):
Let me let's say that one moretime Do not negotiate until
you've been offered the role.
If they say this is what we'reworking with, my guidance is to
just accept so you can moveforward with the interview
process and then you reflect onif that number or if that range
matches what you're looking foras well, because you don't want
to shoot yourself in the foot bystarting to talk about that.
Haven't gone through theinterview or they haven't made a
(23:06):
decision yet, and what yourespond is the decision maker
for you.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yep.
The one caveat to all of thisis and this question that come
up in the workshop is how aboutif I'm talking to a recruiter In
the very, very beginning phaseof the job search process?
Your initial initialconversation may be with a
recruiter.
That's different.
The recruiter's job is to getyou, get the company, the right
(23:31):
match, so the recruiter can bemore transparent about these
things like salary and what thejob is like, what the company is
like, so that they can makesure that you're a right fit
before they recommend you to thecompany right?
And so when you're talking to arecruiter, you can have a
conversation about at least thesalary range and what you're
working with, to know whatyou're getting into before you
(23:53):
apply and actually startinterviewing with the company.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, and they do this sometimes because people
will put the most ridiculousranges ever and they'll put, for
example, if it's like let'sthink about a fake number 20,000
to 60,000, and it's nowherenear 60,000.
So a recruiter's job is to tellyou the actual range of what
they're going for.
So if they're going for more,if they're going more for like
(24:17):
30 to 40,000, the recruiter willlet you know instead of saying,
oh yeah, you can go from 20 to60.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, exactly so.
It's a more realisticconversation with the recruiter
for sure.
So that is a caveat to all ofthis.
Now, you may not always beworking with the recruiter.
Those are very specificinstances.
So make sure you know who it isyou're talking to, if it's the
employer or the recruiter sothat way you know what type of
(24:44):
conversation you can be havingwith them yeah, so you
definitely know to do yourresearch.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
um, there's a lot of mixed guidance out there on the
internet, right?
So, coming from two people whowho advise students every week,
you want to be sure to have anidea of what you're looking for,
right?
So do your research beforehand,before you go in the interview
and just wait till you get thatoffer to negotiate.
Just be patient.
(25:11):
If it's offered, then you cannegotiate.
Sometimes in that process therecruiter is also making the
decision.
Let's say, if it's between twoor three candidates, which
candidate is also going to meetwhat they're looking for?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, that's true, that is true, and we will
actually, in our next episode,talk about negotiation tips and
tactics, but today we'll kind ofgive you some of the basics.
Once you're in that phase ofyou get the job offer, you know
what the salary is.
Now you got to make a decision.
Do you accept, do you negotiate?
(25:45):
What do you do?
What's your general rule ofthumb about this, mj?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
If I'm talking about general rule of thumb, um, when
it comes to do I accept, well,it depends on what I'm looking
for, right?
Um, this is where you have todo and yourself see what you
need to survive in, whateverstate you're living in, and, if
you can, you should have notnecessarily a specific number,
but somewhere around a goal ofwhat you're meeting and then
(26:10):
from there, if that were, ifthat job offers you that target
goal, what you're saying for youcan go for it.
What I learned, what I didn'tdo but have learned since then,
is never say yes immediately,even if you're going to accept
it and know you are.
Give yourself at least 24 hoursto sleep on it and then go from
there.
They're not going to offersomeone the job within 24 hours.
(26:31):
They're going to wait till yourespond.
So don't do what MJ did.
Don't say yes on the spot I wasin a different situation but
think on it and then go fromthere.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, definitely.
It's always a good idea tothink on it, reflect on it.
You might get really excited inthe moment when you get the job
offer, but then you want togive yourself the space and the
time to really consider itbefore you make a decision.
So one thing about that too isI always recommend not giving
your answer over the phone butgiving it over email.
(27:01):
So a lot of times we'll seethat the employer will call you
to give you the offer, becauseit's more personal that way,
which is great.
In that conversation you mightbe excited, you might be feeling
a lot of different emotions andyou don't want to make a hash
decision.
So in that moment I would saylike thank them for the job
offer and for the time and theopportunity, and let them know
(27:25):
that you're really excited aboutthis position and ask them how
long do I have to make my finaldecision?
And they'll give you like oh,we want it by like in the next
three days, or something alongthose lines.
Sometimes they'll say like oh,we really need to know really
quickly because we're trying tomove forward in the hiring
process.
That's when you can ask likecan I have at least 24 hours or
(27:46):
at least along that timeline,and usually they're okay with it
.
Once you establish that, youfollow up with an email with
your decision, and in that emailis when you can do the
negotiation process.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
The negotiation process canhappen in so many different ways
.
If it's going to be aconversation, I would not have
that conversation through email.
That's where I would say if youcan meet in person, it's always
better to have thatface-to-face interaction.
Or if next best thing is likeZoom video call and then, if
worse comes to worse, it's aphone call, this is where you
(28:19):
can use tools like ai to helpyou really like prepare the
language that you want to use.
Don't have ai write the emailor the out the script for you,
but have it.
Let you generate ideas towardswhat you're looking for, because
this discussion can also bringup a lot of nerves in you yeah
and you don't want to sound notconfident when talking about
this, because this is yourmoment to really share your
(28:41):
skills, examples and yourreasons for why you deserve x, x
number, right.
So if I sound unsure of myself,you're gonna be like why am I
gonna pay you if you don't evensound sure of what you can do?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
yeah, and a recruiter and a hiring manager is always
expecting you to negotiate, sodon't think that you're catching
them by surprise oh yeah, theywill actually offer you a lower
it's common practice a lowersalary in expecting that you're
gonna negotiate and the commonrule of thumb of how much to
negotiate, because this is areally common question that we
(29:12):
get.
So how much more can I ask for?
20% more than what they'reoffering you 20%.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Holy crap, isn't that insane.
Yeah, that is almost one-fourthof the entire salary that is a
lot.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So that's the rule of thumb, and in knowing that more
often than not you're not goingto be, they're not going to
agree to the 20%, but if you askfor the 20%, you're probably
they're going to meet you in themiddle around 10% more than
what they offered you.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, my, my thought is is, for example, let's say,
if you're wanting this is superlow, like 30,000 a year, right,
let's say, that's your goal, butthey're offering you 25, ask
for 35.
So then you can go down to whatyou want and if that works, try
, try to meet somewhere in themiddle, always have the number
you don't want to go past orbelow, and then have the number
(30:05):
that you're aiming for, and thenalways find somewhere you're
comfortable in the middle tooyeah, exactly so there are ways
you can write that.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
So, yes, I agree in that you should have this
conversation over phone or orvideo or so forth, not over
email, but usually the firstmessage goes out in email,
correct?
So like when you follow up,let's say, after they give you
the job offer, you follow up andsay thank you so much, et
cetera.
I have had some time to thinkabout it and I would like to
(30:35):
accept this offer.
However, I'd like to negotiateX, y and Z things in the job
description and that's where youcan write a really beautiful,
professional, confident emailabout why you deserve to get
this negotiation, this highersalary or whatever other pieces
you're negotiating, and then youcan end that email with like I
(30:55):
love, I'm open to having aconversation about this further
and see what they say.
I've done that before for myactually for my UCLA job.
I did negotiate and it workedout really well.
They did follow up on the emailand actually give me what I had
asked for.
I didn't at the time know that20% was what you could negotiate
(31:18):
and I definitely didn't feelconfident enough to like
negotiate that much.
It felt scary to do that, andso I definitely negotiated a lot
less percentage than that, butwhatever I did ask for, I'm
really grateful that they wereable to meet.
But we wrote a beautiful email.
My husband and I, we sat down.
We brainstormed.
We're like why do I deservethis?
What is my minimum that I'mneeding?
(31:39):
It has to be more than what I'mcurrently making so that I can
make the switch and all of thesethings.
Like we brainstormed, we wrotethe email.
This was before AI, by the way.
We wrote the email and it didend up working out nicely, but
it is the initial conversationcan happen in the email and,
depending on if they want tohave a further like in depth
(31:59):
conversation with you or theymight just respond and approve
via email.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yes, I 100% agree.
I also want to add too if theyoffer a new number in the email,
do not sign the first offerletter they send you.
Make sure they send you a newoffer letter with the correct
amount that's on there and thenyou sign that one.
Sometimes employers would belike, okay, great, we agreed on
that over number via email.
Sign the offer letter andyou're like, no, yeah, you say
(32:26):
no, I will sign a new offerletter, and there is a polite
and professional way to do thatas well.
Right, you're not just going torefuse so definitely again.
Remember to have a new offerletter with that amount and
everything you discussed.
Clearly, and it's okay if thattakes one or two days.
They're going to be rushing toget you in there, so you should
be patient as well.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah yeah.
There's a whole process to allof this and if you are in this
phase you're thinking aboutnegotiating, or you don't know
how to draft the email, or youdon't know how to develop the
examples of what makes youqualified to get this
negotiation.
That's where mj and I can helpyou all out in our one-on-one
(33:06):
sessions, where we couldactually sit down with you and
have that conversation and helpyou build out your email to them
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
We are here to help you build your confidence in all
areas of career, and this isone that makes a lot of people
nervous.
So reach out to us, listen tothis podcast, save podcast.
Save it, put it in your pocket,share it with a friend, share
it on social media.
Whatever you do, remember thatwe're here for you.
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