October 8, 2024 • 50 mins
Could improving your negotiation skills lead to a significant salary boost? Tune in as we unravel the secrets to negotiating your compensation by highlighting your value proposition. This episode is brimming with strategies designed to empower you in the often nerve-wracking world of salary negotiations.
Navigating the labyrinth of salary discussions can be intimidating, but it doesn't have to be. We dissect common fears surrounding negotiation and fortify you with the tools needed to approach offers with confidence rather than apprehension. From understanding industry norms to the art of presenting a salary range, we provide a roadmap for optimizing your negotiation tactics. Explore why asking for up to a 20% increase isn't just a bold move but a calculated step towards securing fair compensation.
Our discussion expands to cover the nuances of negotiating across various sectors, shining a light on why self-reflection and understanding your unique contributions can be pivotal. Hear why negotiation is less about conflict and more about collaboration, arm yourself with compelling statistics, and learn why 85% of negotiators see part of their requests fulfilled. Whether you're stepping into your first role or navigating a new offer, these insights aim to transform how you advocate for yourself in the professional arena.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
welcome back welcome back everyone.
The last time we were here, itwas hot and it was the start of
fall.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's october now and it's still hot yeah, it's gonna
be 103 degrees this weekend.
That's gross.
I know I was like preparing myfall outfits.
Little did I know we're stillin the middle of summer so gross
.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Um, but anybody any.
Any way, happy october.
It is the first couple days ofoctober and it feels very
festive out in the world, sohappy october from us to you yes
, spooky season is upon us loveit.
We are so excited to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
We have a couple updates drum roll, we actually
have a winner for our contest.
Yes, uh.
Thank you to rachel, who wrotea review and uh rated our
podcast.
So therefore, you have won afree counseling session with MJ
(01:03):
and myself.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Absolutely, and we do want to read the review because
we really enjoy hearing whatyou guys have to say and
implement it into our show Right.
It's an amazing opportunitythat we get to interact with you
all.
So the review reads foundArmanay and this podcast, thanks
(01:24):
to MJ who helped me when I wasa student at UCLA.
Truly appreciate all the worky'all do.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Helps keep my spirits up in this tough job market.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Thank you, that is so sweet.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That is so sweet.
It's so nice to hear that likeyou know there's a positive
influence from this podcast inpeople's lives, because the job
market is tough and it can be alittle.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
What's the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Like it can make someone feel small.
You know, and I think you knowthat's one of the reasons we're
doing this podcast is to empowerpeople.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So that's really sweet to hear.
And, just so you know, Iimmediately knew who you were
when I saw your name.
Yeah, immediately, Iimmediately knew who you were.
I remember your major and Iremember the conversations that
we had and even some of theevents you attended.
So know that as much as we haveleft an impact on you, you have
also left an impact on thestaff that interacted with you
(02:19):
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's amazing.
I love when we can remember ourstudents, and they do.
Our clients, our students youall make a big impact on us, so
I'm actually excited to meet youRachel.
Yeah, when we do our session.
So we will reach out to you inresponse to this and go ahead
and schedule that session, butyou all do leave an impact on us
(02:44):
, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, we love it, and thank you so much for the
rating.
Thank you so much for everyoneelse who has also committed to
some of the reviews, right, someof the more recent ones also
talk about.
I can't stress enough howhelpful all the tips you two
talk about with all the thingscareer related, with a capital C
from using LinkedIn and theinteresting things AI can do and
(03:07):
how to properly use it as atool as well.
Oh sorry, there's more to that,so I have this podcast saved and
set to automatically downloadnude episodes as they come out.
You guys have such a naturalflow when talking about all your
topics and really enjoy that.
You, that about you too.
It keeps me engaged and makesme feel part of the conversation
(03:28):
.
I recommend coffee and careerhour to everyone and I can't
wait to continue listening toall the amazing topics you guys
have cooking up for us love thatreview.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That is a special one , for sure.
Um, and this next review aswell is like near and dear to my
heart because it like almostencompasses the heart of the
podcast.
Right, they titled it these Arethe Friends you Need and they
are sharing.
In short, it's helpful advicefrom the heart.
(04:00):
Armin and MJ give youactionable tips and strategies
to move through your career withpurpose and through honoring
your values.
Oh, that sounds so warm.
I love it.
It sounds very full, yeah, verycozy.
(04:25):
It really does.
So we are really grateful tokind of get these reviews, um,
and and see that you're allgetting the feeling and the
heart behind this podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, that's what we're here for.
Um, we really do hope thatthese are opportunities to
listen, learn, but also get toknow us just a little bit more
as well?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, definitely.
So, with that said, you knowwe've been talking a lot about
different practical careerstrategies and tips to help you
in different aspects of yourcareer, decision making and in
our last episode we talked aboutnegotiation, the importance of
negotiation, and today we wantto actually follow up on that
(05:11):
topic with more practicalstrategies on how to do
negotiation.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You can never have enough negotiation conversations
because it's something that Ithink that is commonly said to
do and to put into practice, tobe proactive when you're looking
for an opportunity.
But I also think it's one ofthose things that is so taboo.
Right to like equal to money,right?
How much do you make?
How do you talk about it?
(05:36):
Because we're so trained in inthe western culture that we
shouldn't talk about money.
You shouldn't ask about it youshould just take what you have
be grateful, I also come from aculture, or just be grateful for
what you have right, just justdon't ask for more.
Be grateful for what you have,because at least you have that.
So it's one of these thingswhere we're happy to be people
who can empower you.
(05:58):
I love the word, I love that youuse that word in the beginning,
so I'm going to continue toempower you with strategies,
tools and resources to feel thebest way possible financially
through the opportunities withwithin your work, because it's
really important that you'realso paid what you, what you are
(06:19):
.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Negotiation is a scary topic as it is, and,
coming from cultures that wecome from as well, it is very uh
taboo to talk about money.
Right like same with theArmenian culture as well.
It's like, um, you need to begrateful for the opportunities
that you have.
So take what you can get anddon't complain.
(06:41):
You get what you get and youdon't complain.
That's what we've been raisedon, that's for sure, and I think
those are very common in many,uh, immigrant cultures.
Right coming here to the us,you already have these big
opportunities, so you need to begrateful.
But the reality is that there'sa system, we live in a system
and there are common practicesand unspoken rules and I think,
(07:05):
just being first generationprofessionals navigating this
world, we're learning how tonavigate those systems and we
want to share that knowledgewith you all too.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm excited to put these into
practice in my next role because, MJ if you heard the last one
I've never negotiated before.
I've always had the mentalityand the opportunities that I
have had.
They've always been the onlyopportunity I've been offered,
so I didn't feel like I hadanything to negotiate for or
with, because it was always anew grad, or just you know never
(07:37):
done it.
Very scared.
It was jobless.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
That's another story for another day and I just need
to take it, because I need a joband I need income so I'm
excited to put these intopractice yeah, later no.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I negotiated.
It was scary for sure.
I actually had my husband helpme yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, you got to use the environment, the, the
community that you have.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, and you know it .
Yes, I'm a career counselor,but also, like my husband had
more experience with negotiatingand he had read this great book
, that is really like you're allequipped with some of those
tools and language that you canuse in your in your next role.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, and we're excited to hear how you, how you
use these and how they'vehelped, and what have you
learned and how you've grown too.
So kicking things off with someof the obvious things to us as
career counselors, but not soobvious.
When you are getting, or in theposition of getting, a job
offer, every hiring manager,every person who calls you to
(08:54):
offer you an opportunity, isexpecting that you are going to
negotiate Flatline.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, and nobody tells you this when you're first
starting off.
It's so weird, it's so awkward.
It is awkward, but it's likethis when you're first starting
off.
It's so weird, it's so awkward,it is awkward, but it's like
this unspoken rule yeah, thatcompanies will give you an offer
expecting that you're going tonegotiate, so you can already
(09:21):
imagine they're going to aimlower because they're thinking
there might leave some room togo higher when you negotiate.
If you do, yeah, but nobodyknows this.
You know it's um growing up andapplying to your first
professional jobs.
You might not know that you'reexpected to negotiate and you
might be super excited to getthe offer and just take what you
get.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
You know and they take note if you negotiate or
not and how much you negotiatedfor, and they will internalize
that and they'll have thatdecision with whatever committee
they're working with too.
So, um, pros, cons, so thattype of thing.
But everybody's expecting youto negotiate.
So, yes, they're going to aimlow, so you also have some type
(09:58):
of number to kind of go off of.
But it has to be a very much socollaborative environment.
There has to be an opportunityfor you to give and take, and
remember that when it comes tonegotiation, our main thought
that comes across is money.
So, yes, there are numbers, butthere are also different things
that you can negotiate.
For example, one of the biggestthings that people have been
(10:19):
negotiating since COVID isremote work, right.
So if, let let's say, you can'tcome to the compromise of
finding a good number that worksfor you both, if you accept the
number they offer, can you workfrom home three days, two days
a week, right.
Yeah, working conditions,healthcare benefits Absolutely
(10:40):
Really, really anything Vacationdiscounts to childcare, access
to childcare in some differentway or parental leave.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Mm-hmm, any kind of other perks and benefits?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
could be negotiated.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
But truth be told, as career counselors we do see
that majority of the time peopleare trying to negotiate
salaries.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, it's harder to kind of negotiate the other
aspects because it's much moreof an HR thing.
Right, the hiring managerusually is expecting you to
negotiate the money when itcomes to remote work and
different types of benefits andperks really discounts or
anything like that that has togo through HR and a lot of
documentation, so that's notreally seen as much as the money
(11:21):
aspect.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Exactly so.
With that being said, you knowwhen you are negotiating.
Regardless of what aspect ofthe offer you're negotiating,
you want to keep in mind thatit's not a win-lose situation.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You're not competing with the employer at this point.
They're giving you an offer, soyou guys are on the same team
at this point.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So going into this negotiation with a mindset of
you guys are on the same teamand the goal or whatever common
ground you come to, it shouldbenefit both parties yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
It's not a quick and easy conversation where armenia
offers me five dollars and I sayI want 10 and then she's like,
no, sorry, I can't do that.
Sometimes it is as quick asthat, but it it all comes down
to your approach and what is onthe table what is being offered,
how much room there is in thebudget.
You also hear those terms a lottoo, but it is really a win-win.
You're trying to come to acompromise and that's where you
(12:15):
really want to also demonstrateyour brainstorming opportunity
and your teamwork ability andyour openness to work with them.
You don't want to be like,sorry, I don't want to accept
your $5.
I'm worth more than that.
Peace out.
Yeah, that's not the bestapproach.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And I think, on the other end of that, where a lot
of people get stuck and getscared to negotiate, is that if
they negotiate and ask forsomething that the employer
can't meet, that they're goingto take away the offer or
something along those lines.
I know as counselors we alwaystell our clients that they are
(12:52):
not going to take away the offer.
That is not part of commonpractice at all, if you try to
negotiate.
if they can't meet that or theydon't have room in the budget or
anything, they will let youknow, but they're not going to
be like oh, never mind, we'renot going to, we're taking away
this offer because you're tryingto ask for more than what we
can get 100%.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
That's not best practice and if it is, find
another employer.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's a huge red flag at the start.
You haven't even startedworking for them.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So, yes, it is not what we can offer.
This is what the job pays.
This is the benefits.
This is what the breakdownlooks like.
There's no room in the budget.
This is what we have allocatedfor this position we need your
decision at this time and date.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
So what's the worst that can happen?
They can say no, and thenthat's when you decide like,
okay, you're going to take theoffer or not take away the offer
, then that's different.
But if you haven't accepted yet, you are free to decline the
(13:56):
offer if it doesn't really meetyour needs 100 yeah.
So, with that being said, youdon't have much to lose at this
part of the game, becausethey're expecting you to
negotiate and you might not getexactly what you ask for, but
you might come to a commonground, which is what usually
happens.
So, with that same note, whatis the common or the standard
(14:17):
percentage mj for people torequest like a higher?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
amount than what they're being offered 20 yeah so
if let's say, in a non-idealworld, I'm offering armenia 100
bucks for this, job that she'sgoing to work for me as a career
counselor.
I'm going to offer you ahundred bucks a month.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
She can negotiate for 120, right, 20% more.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
If I'm doing the math correctly, it's 20% more.
So she can say well, can I have120, right?
Obviously the conversationwouldn't be like that.
There's different tactics andlanguage she would use, but
essentially it's 20%.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, so you can ask for 20 more.
Very rarely will that be likethat.
They can offer you that much.
But then you're thinking, okay,they're gonna go down to about
10, yeah I can meet you in themiddle so you end up getting 10
more than what was being offered.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Absolutely, absolutely a lot of times you
know, like if you are successfulor not, again the worst thing
they can say is no.
You also have to be very awareof what you are researching when
it comes to that role and whatthe average pay is.
If you're asking for like 50,70% more than what they're
offering, they're going to belike uh, no, it's like
unrealistic, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Your request has to be realistic too, in terms of
what the market looks like forthis type of position, which is
one of the biggest rules ofnegotiation is do your research.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Absolutely.
You, yeah doing your researchis so important.
It shows not only a certainlevel of preparedness to the
employer, but it also leaves animpression and you always want
to leave great impressions.
But you come knowing what youbring to the table, what you can
contribute to this team andthis company, and that's what
you want to do, that's what youwant to lead with.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, definitely.
You've got to know your valueand you want to come from a
position of strength, not aposition of sales.
If, if you catch what I'msaying there, like you're not
selling yourself it's not apitch in that sense but you're
coming from a true like,meaningful, thoughtful place of
(16:27):
like.
Here are all the things that Ican do for your company and that
I bring this wealth ofknowledge and experience with me
, so like I want to do thesethings, but this is what I would
need in return yeah, you're nota third party, you're not a
third party company that they'rehiring to do a specific service
I mean the technical way.
(16:47):
Yes, if we want to consider thata job.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
But if this is more so like you apply to this job
because you want to do it, youhave some type of interest
towards it, you want to comefrom this genuine place of not
just saying this is what I have,or this is what I'll take away
and my type of service to thisjob.
You're not.
You're not your own salespersonin that way, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So that's gonna be like in the tone of the email
that you send and the way thatyou're saying what you're saying
.
So we'll kind of talk about howto structure that email in a
little bit too.
But to give you some statisticson how common negotiation is
and what the results are,according to some research done,
there's 38% of professionalssay that they haven't negotiated
(17:30):
because they don't feelcomfortable asking for higher
salaries.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I believe that I'm part of the 38.
I did not come from a place ofstrength.
I did not come from a place ofknowing my value.
I did not come from a placewhere I felt confident to do
that, so I definitely am in the38% and agree agree with that.
And it really is a level ofcomfort.
It's almost like um asking formore again.
(17:56):
It comes for me.
It comes back to that piece oflike being grateful and it's
weird like I'm super grateful tohave this title, this role,
this position, the school, likeall these different things, what
I'm supposed to ask for morelike you're not supposed to take
more than what you've beengiven, right?
So I get it.
And I mean everyone has theirreasons to negotiate and why
they don't want to negotiate, sothat's also something too yeah,
(18:18):
no, it is super uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's why I had to have my husband help me too,
because I felt the same way oflike, should I even be asking
for a higher salary, like youknow?
And then he actually coached me.
It's so interesting now that Ithink about it.
He's like you have to thinkabout all the skills that you
have and what you can offer andthe value that you bring and I
was like oh my gosh.
Yes, it's true, but I felt thesame way too, of like, do I even
(18:42):
deserve to have a higher salary?
But 38% of professionals andthat's a pretty big number, I
think.
In my opinion, Most peopleoften aren't comfortable
negotiating, Um like alsobecause of lack of confidence or
job security, like that fearthat this opportunity is going
(19:02):
to be taken away from them,which that's really sad.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's almost a third .
Well, that's, I'm sorry that'sover a third of employees who
don't, who don't feel that wayand that lack of um, the lack of
confidence is huge because,right, like if I'm negotiating
with you, armin, and I'm like Ican bring you student service
right, and I'm like questioningmyself and you hear it and you
don't see it, or I'm like youcould tell if I'm sending you
(19:28):
something, but I know, I don't.
I don't live up to that tone orthat sense of confidence that is
in my email.
That clearly looks like someoneelse wrote it, yeah, or maybe
nowadays AI wrote it right.
If you're bringing that and youdon't know how to articulate
again your value, yourcontribution, your strengths,
your confidence to this role andwhat you can can offer, right,
that's also something too sothat's huge and that's more of
(19:50):
an internal, internalconversation again you have
people, counselors like armeniaand myself yeah, um, resources
that are here to help you dothat too.
The job security scary,especially in this job market.
Right, people are like, uh,let's skip the negotiation.
That can happen in six monthsto a year, depending on what
type of environment you work inindustry I just need a job.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I just need income yeah, yeah, because some
companies you might not be ableto ask for a raise, like if
you're going into corporate,maybe because corporate runs a
little differently.
But if you're going into likegovernment and city and county
type of work or education, goodluck, because they they ain't
got no budget to like beoffering your raise at random
(20:33):
times in the year.
The best you get is like thethree percent raise every
calendar year less than fivepercent raise absolutely that's,
that's absolutely true, sothinking about what industries
you're going into, becausecertain industries, yeah, they
have different times in the yearthey do bonuses and things like
that, but not many industriesdon't do that.
(20:53):
They just don't have the budgetfor it.
So it's like it's now or never,basically to negotiate a higher
salary yeah, it's really crazy,because then you don't know
where to pitch yourself.
And then let's say you meetsomeone or somebody on your team
, who's doing it and theynegotiate.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's very complex, like the whole conversation
about it and the thought processthat goes behind it.
So, yeah, you're not alone Imean ultimately too, like,
remember, you're not alone.
There's people who've done this, there's people who've
successfully done it and peoplewho who've attempted may not
have been successful, but hey,they still they still feel good
about what they tried, and atleast they tried, they made an
effort, yeah yeah, and um, evenlike those of us who have, like,
(21:29):
I've tried it, I didn'tnecessarily ask for the 20%.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
More like that to me was super uncomfortable.
I was like, oh, no way I'mgonna ask for this amount, right
?
Um, so I found an amount thatlike made sense for me and we're
gonna talk about how to do thatresearch and so forth but I
found an amount that made sensefor me, that I felt comfortable
enough asking where I didn'tfeel like I was like undeserving
(21:52):
of that salary.
But now, thinking back, I'm like, you know, there is a common
practice of 20 percent, so Icoach my students and clients on
being comfortable with askingfor that if it makes sense based
on the research as well, but Iknow that that for me was
uncomfortable too.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The other thing a lot of people don't tend to
remember in the part of thenegotiation, right, because
they're giving you.
We're strictly talking aboutmoney right now.
Right, they're giving you anumber.
I'm giving you $100 a month,for example, or $1,000, whatever
you want to consider.
I'm not thinking in that momenthow much you're going to take
out of my taxes, how much if?
I'm filing my taxes single, orjoin in what that's going to
(22:32):
look like, how much I'm making,how much my medical benefits, my
eye doctor, my dent, like allof these, my pet insurance, for
God's sake, like all thesethings that you don't think
about, like, wait, I thought Iwas going to make a hundred
dollars a month.
What do you mean?
I'm going to make 54 bucks.
Yeah, it's so true.
(22:54):
So that's why there's this 20%too, because it's like, it's not
like, let's say, you'resupposed to make a thousand but
out of that thousand let's say,I don't know, half his taxes
you're going to only make like$523.
There's a lot that goes into itas well, which is why the 20% is
there, because a good five to10%, how much extra like a few
extra dollars on your paycheck.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, no, it's true.
So thinking about all thedifferent aspects and the
formulas that go into play andwhat actual dollar amount you
make at the end of the month isgoing to look a little different
.
They're giving you their grossincome salary information in the
offer and not considering allthe deductions that are going to
(23:31):
come into play.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Absolutely, and again we're talking about salaries.
Right, we're talking aboutsalary opportunities not hourly.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes, so that's going to look different for part-time
or less than full-time roles.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So just know that for sure, especially if you're
someone making minimum wage oryou're in an area where that's
at the set limit there mayreally not be room for
negotiation, because that's whatit is.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Right.
There may really not be roomfor negotiation, because that's
what it is, right.
That might look a littledifferent, but, on a positive
note, in this research studythey found that 85% of the
people who negotiated didreceive at least some of what
they asked for that's awesome,isn't that so cool?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That is way more than what I was expecting, but it
makes sense.
Yeah, right, again, it's thatimpression that you leave, it's
the fact that you advocate,because it is a sense of
self-advocating for yourself andyou're standing up for what you
bring.
You know what you're bringing.
So guess what?
The employer, the hiringmanager, is going to trust you
best, because who knows youbetter than you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Definitely so.
With that being said, there'slight at the end of the tunnel.
I'm going to negotiate my nextone-on-one.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm just kidding.
Hey, put these skills intopractice, MJ, and then let us
know how it goes.
I love it.
It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
But with that being said, you know there is a pretty
good chance that you might getsomething out of this
negotiation process.
So let's talk a little bitabout actual tips and strategies
for how to do the negotiation.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, Armin, first things first.
Again, you need to know you.
You need to know what you'rebringing.
So, not just what was on yourresume, but what are the extra
bits and pieces that you left inyour back pocket for that
interview, for you to be like,hey, those impact statements
that I wrote, let me show youand let me tell you how that's
going to be beneficial towardsyou and your organization, but
again coming from a place ofgenuine want and interest not
(25:19):
just I'm selling my service toyou.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah.
It's a two-way street.
It is and it's thinking about,like the impact you've made,
let's say, in a previous job orif you're, you know you've had,
let's say, you're in school, butyou've developed a lot of these
skills through extracurriculars.
Whatever your situation was theimpact that you made at your
(25:43):
previous location.
You want to include that in thenegotiation process.
That's going to helpdemonstrate the value that you
bring right not just the tasksyou did, but what impact did you
make?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
yeah, so for example, I always use myself, because
it's easy to use our experiencesas an example, and the new ones
, I didn't just see students andreview their resumes and cover
letters, but I created or builtstrong relationships with the
student body to genuinely impact, increase their career
readiness upon graduation.
That is the value that I bringright.
(26:18):
It's not just me knowing how todo spacing and margins on a
document.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, definitely, and like, if you think about things
, you've went above and beyondat your previous job or in your
previous roles where you didthings outside of the basic job
description.
Yeah, um, those are things youcan use as well to help
demonstrate your value.
So the first thing is thatself-reflection piece,
absolutely maybe writing it downsomewhere.
(26:43):
Put a whiteboard up, put a pento paper, whatever, put your
computer screen on and type itout.
But do some kind ofbrainstorming process to
identify what value do you bringto this profession?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
yeah, if it helps and you feel like you can go to a
trusted person.
Mentor um.
In this case it was armena'shusband right um, a friend, your
previous supervisor andco-workers?
Yeah, absolutely this alsohelps, too, to help like
brainstorm if you're feelingstuck and I know how can you
(27:20):
feel stuck.
If you got the right, there's aton of emotions that come up.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So also, you can also include people in your
community that can help you withthis process as well yeah, to
just like talk through it, oryou could work with a career
counselor, yeah, yeah, and cometalk to us either one of us or,
if you're at a school, go to thecareer center at your school,
right, but talk to somebody whocan like help you process these
ideas and maybe like just be asounding board for you to figure
(27:46):
out, like okay, what are allthe?
things that you did and whatwere the results of those things
Like, okay, what are?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
all the things that you did and what were the
results of those things?
Yeah, I'm just reflecting onthe last year.
I had a lot of students comeand talk about this and you know
what was the best part was wegot to do role play of what that
looked like, and that's reallyhelpful too.
So that's another strategy ofyou practicing out what that
looks like and how to offer whatlanguage to use, what
statements to include, whatskills and abilities to mention
(28:11):
as well?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, definitely.
So let's say, you do thatself-reflection process, you
talk to people who, like, canmentor you through this as well,
and you identify, like OK,these are the values that I
bring to this profession.
What's next, mj?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
What's next?
Well, we did talk about ourresearch, so that's really
what's next right Is yes,traditionally, you want to think
about research as you'reapplying for different roles too
.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
But then now comes okay, you've been offered.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
It's now getting serious right Relationship.
You're no longer dating.
You're looking to marry in aspecific term Now.
So I'm going to do my researchfor this position in my state,
in my city, for example, in mycounty.
How much is?
Generally what is the average?
And you can go back to the partone of this essentially to look
(29:04):
at what are the websites andtools you can use to do this?
Again, there's that 20%, that'sover.
But you also want to do yourresearch and look through the
data that's out there todetermine that number for you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, and one part of like doing the research is okay
.
Yes, you identify like what arecommon salary ranges for your
job, your profession, within aparticular location, and in our
previous episode we talk aboutwebsites that you can use to do
this research.
But that's one part of theresearch piece.
The other part is doing yourown budgeting.
You got to do your own likefinancial calculations to see
(29:42):
how much do you actually need tolive, what is your like minimum
, minimum that you need to beable to live in the location
that you're at, and then whatwould be your ideal, because
that's going to help you come upwith that middle ground number
that you can help negotiate, askfor in your negotiation process
, where you might not get theideal but hopefully you also
(30:05):
won't get the minimum you'll getsomething a little bit above
the minimum.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Great to that point.
Um, you want to make surewithin those ranges you have
something that you're notwilling to go below.
You really need to in thismoment, not stand your ground
per se, but just know what yourlimits and boundaries are right,
Like I'm offering her $100.
She's not going to go less than$120.
Okay, she's going to offer $160.
(30:29):
Maybe I can't do $160 160, butI can do 140.
But she's armin is definitelynot gonna go for 120.
So again you need to know whatyour limits are, but also what
you need to survive.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, because you know this is a transaction
at the end of the day, this is acontract at the end of the day
of like I offer this to you andthis is what I get in return
type of deal.
Um, okay, so you know your worth, you know your value, you've
done your research.
You know what amounts you needminimum, what amounts are ideal.
(31:03):
You have like a general range.
Um, on that note, when you areasking for in that negotiation
email, you don't want to putjust one number, you want to
give them a range of likebetween this and this amount
something to note be wise andpractice wisely when you do this
(31:26):
, because the lowest number theyhear is the highest number
they're going to go for too.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So you want to think about that.
If I'm going to offer armine105 and she's like, okay, we'll
go for 105, my range is 105 to160 guess what I'm not going to
offer her 160 because her rangeis 105.
Yeah, the lowest number you gofor is probably the highest,
they're going to offer.
If they don't have room forthat, they'll negotiate under
that too yeah, but it's having arange um, it's just common
(31:57):
practice demonstratesflexibility.
You're willing to work the openyeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Um, and there's this another like nuance to the
number that you offer you wantto stay away from like round
numbers.
Yeah, like fifty thousanddollars, for example, annually.
That you shouldn't be sayinglike a round number, like that,
it should be like fifty onethousand three hundred and
twenty five, like a veryspecific number because that
(32:23):
implies that you didcalculations.
You looked at your financialsituation, you calculated how
much you need to live andsurvive, plus, you also did your
research to see how much peoplemake in this field, and in that
formula you came up with thisvery specific number correct.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You negotiated perfectly.
You have whatever you want,absolutely.
Again, it's that level ofpreparedness versus someone
who's like all right, I wantlike 5 000 more what?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
yeah, just out of nowhere you, you're like, yeah,
okay, cool.
Like if you just give me 50K,I'm good, 60k I'm good.
Like that doesn't show that youwere thoughtful, you know, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You got to think about all of the different life
factors that can come into playhere, but absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah.
So in that, along those samenotes, before writing out this
email or having thisconversation, you want to
practice your talking points.
So thinking about OK, what arethe specific, basically like
quote unquote, counter argumentsyou're going to make to say to
show them, like, why you aredeserving of this higher salary,
(33:28):
what are the values that youbring to this employer?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
you've got to like have specific examples of that
yeah, and again, you're notreiterating what's in your
documents or what you saidthrough the interview, right?
You're talking about legitimateexamples, strategies, abilities
, things that reallydifferentiate you like, your
reasons why you should earn this.
You're not going to go in there,so here's another thing too
you're not going to go in thereand be like well, you know, like
(33:54):
well I, I have like three kidsand and I need child care and
and my husband's not working atthe moment and knowledge, no,
because guess what, I'm so sorry, in the us nobody cares like we
care because I'm, we're human.
Yeah, of course you can tellarmenina and and I that, but
don't tell the employer that,because they're not gonna care
at the end of the day.
(34:14):
You're there to do the job.
Yeah, that's what they so yougotta really think about.
What are your reasons why youshould be making this much?
What are your reasons why weshould pay you?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
yeah, put yourself in the shoes of the employer, like
if you were hiring somebody.
What would be the reasons whyyou would be willing to give
this person more money?
Yeah, yeah, like in your field.
What is the kind of knowledge,the kind of skills, the kind of
energy that you would expectfrom a really high performing
employee in your field?
(34:47):
Right, and then why would theybe deserving more salary?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Yeah, it's jumping out to me and I have to say I
mean like for you.
I could just imagine youtalking about how much of a
leader you are, how muchleadership skill and energy you
bring.
You unite people without youbeing in the specific roles,
like a director, for example,where you can do that.
So you gotta also identifythese different pieces,
absolutely yeah, get, yeah, getwhatever you want.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Thank you, hire me.
No, but it's true, and this isa perfect point of like where
you can ask your colleagues.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Or even classmates, if you're in school right now,
like what are some skills theysee in you that are like unique
to you, that you bring to a teamdynamic?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
You know, absolutely.
And it's in these things thatyou can really highlight the
value that you bring and, yes,you do have something different
than the other person, becauseguess what?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
At the end of the day , that's why they offered you
the job, and not the second andthird pick Exactly, and the
other people also who were incompetition with you maybe have
the same degrees or the samequalifications, like they meet
the minimum, like knowledge andskill level.
So you all meet those.
But what differentiated youfrom them?
That's what you got to thinkabout.
It's got to be the energy andthe passion and the other um
(36:02):
transferable skills that youbring to this role.
So those are things you canlean on in this negotiation
conversation 100.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, but now, MJ, my question is are we doing this
in email?
Are we doing this in phone?
Are we doing this in person?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes.
So I think you and I we differa little bit on this type of
conversation, but that's okay,because it can be done in both
ways.
In my thought process, there'sa lot of ways in which you can
kind of talk about this right.
So once you get the offerletter we mentioned this last
time too they're going to giveyou a call.
Hey, armanay, really enjoyedyou, very much impressed, and
(36:43):
our team would love to offer youthe position of director of my
university, whatever.
So here's what we're thinking.
This is what we have.
Um, we will send you an emailwith an offer letter up there.
Um, if possible.
We would like to know yourdecision by next friday around 3
pm.
Um, if you have any questions,you can let me know, reach me
(37:05):
back at this number, email meand I'd be happy to chat.
Armenia then goes doesn't agreeor disagree to the offer.
Is very grateful over thatphone call.
Does not pick that as a time tonegotiate because, remember,
everybody's expecting you tonegotiate.
Once you receive the offerletter.
There's two ways in which youcan handle this.
I'm for writing an email,writing again stating your
(37:29):
gratitude, your thankfulnesstowards this, and then also
writing your counter offers aswell in the email.
Or you can ask to set up a.
If you're in the opportunity todo face-to-face conversation,
have a face-to-face conversationor over zoom.
Um, the actual negotiation partin my thought process should,
(37:50):
should not happen over email.
The counter can, but not theactual conversation.
That's my.
I don't know if I explainedthat too much.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
No, that was perfect.
Yeah, and we touched on this inour last episode too.
So, yes, you can definitely dothat in a actual conversation.
Um, in the experience I've hadbefore and the students I've
worked with as well, it's kindof happened over email.
So I've seen it happen.
That's why I'm like alsocomfortable with the email,
because you could be thoughtfulabout the responses and you
(38:19):
don't have that pressure of likehaving to respond right away.
So I think my approach is likemore comfortable over email.
But I think it's also going toheavily depend on the employer
and their style of communication, right, I agree.
So you kind of also have to goalong with how they approach the
situation.
But, maybe it would be worth youthinking about what you're
(38:43):
comfortable with and maybepreparing for both scenarios,
and if you can lean one way orthe other, then you choose what
you want to do over email or inperson.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, and I will say too so, depending on industry,
you may not always benegotiating with the actual
hiring manager.
So, like your manager on theteam, so let's say I offer
Armini the job, but I'm like, ok, you know, sally is going to
send you Sure Sally.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Sally's going to send you.
Sorry, I don't know why I wasrethinking the name.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Sally's going to send you the offer letter and maybe
you negotiate with Sally, withuh, with sally now, with me,
yeah, um, so it could alsodepend there, I agree.
Communication stuff, but alsowho you're negotiating with is
going to also look verydifferent yeah, it could be the
recruiter, it could be the hrrep, who knows?
Or if, you're working withsomeone who's like helping you
get recruited, the negotiationcould also happen through them
(39:38):
too, so it just there's a lot ofdifferent ways here.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
There is, and in those nuances, if actually if
you're in any of these processesand have a question, that would
be a great time to actuallyreach out to a career counselor
like ourselves to maybe help younavigate that particular
situation that you're in,depending on who the employer is
if.
If you need to reword, the email, figure out how to propose your
(40:03):
counter offer or whatever youneed, and that like particular
nuances.
It's hard to say in generalhere, like how to navigate those
, because it's going to be verydependent on your unique
situation.
Yeah, so those would be greattopics to kind of offer career
counseling sessions for.
But with that said, you know,whatever the process is that you
(40:24):
establish with your employerand you do your counter offer
and you are now in the processof negotiation.
I always like to, like you know,err on the side of like taking
time to respond.
You know once they say okay,this is the offer that we can
make spot.
You know, once they say okaythis is the offer that we can
(40:45):
make.
Um, it's always reallyprofessional to be thoughtful,
even if you know, in the momentthat you're gonna take it just
to be thoughtful and like holdoff.
I'm like okay, thank you somuch when can I let you know by
like final goodbye yeah, thatdidn't.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
That was not my experience.
I said yes in a moment.
But again, I think this wordcomes back to my relationship
with the person who called me.
It was a very differentsituation.
So I like was like yes, yes,yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited
I'll take the job.
So if it was someone else, Ithink, if it wasn't, the person
completely reacted the wayyou're saying like thank you so
much.
(41:18):
I look forward to seeing um theoffer letter and then letting
you know, by said date, saidtime.
So yeah, mj's story is a littlebit different, but that's it for
another day.
But armena if it's my firsttime negotiating, how the heck
do I even structure this email?
What do I put?
What do I say?
Is it weird?
Do I?
Do I put in the subject likenegotiation?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
like, what do I do?
Negotiation that is so cute.
Yes, okay, let's talk about howto structure the email.
The very, very first thing youalways want to do is thank the
employer for the offer, right?
So this is one day like sendthat original offer, like
congratulations, et cetera, likehere's the attached as your
(42:00):
offer letter you reply to thatemail with a thing being
thankful and showing yourgratitude for that offer,
regardless of what that offer is.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Agree, okay what's the next step?
Next step is you want torestate your interest in the
position, right?
You want to talk about whyyou're excited about this role,
but also show gratitude for theoffer.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
So again thanking them.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yes but also propose your negotiation.
This is where you can lay outreally really well your research
, both your interpersonalreflection of finances, how much
it costs to live.
Let's say if you're moving to anew state change of change of
pay, right.
If you're coming from Michiganor from Idaho to California,
(42:46):
it's very, very different, right?
The, the, the pay and what thatlooks like to live in
California is insane.
Again making me want tonegotiate, um, but this is where
you lay out your research,where you got it from the
numbers, all those differentthings and backing up with your
value proposition, right?
Do you remember your elevatorpitch and why you and?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
why this position?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
all that great stuff.
That's where you throw this inthere, but again with those
concrete reasons and statementsand values and skills and
abilities, qualifications, whyyou, why you deserve to make
this much money, why you deserveto earn from this company
because of all the amazingthings you're going to
contribute yeah, yeah, so it'sthat that's like the heart of
(43:29):
your email, right, the actualvalue proposition.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
But uh, going back to that point of like referencing
your research, we literally beenreferencing, like when you're
in school and you cite yoursources.
Correct.
That is according to salarycom.
X, y and Z position in LosAngeles.
California makes this rangeyeah.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
You're not going to be like.
My husband thinks I should make10,000 more.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
That's what my reference is which?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, seriously, but yeah, it would be like.
According to this source, thisis how much the range is, and
you could list a couple ofsources.
Furthermore, according to thisother website, this is how much
the salary range is, based on myresearch and my calculations of
um minimum like salaryrequirements in los angeles,
california.
(44:15):
I am proposing this amount forthe following reasons, and
that's where you list your valueproposition.
Yeah, it's almost like a coverletter point Los Angeles,
california.
I am proposing this amount forthe following reasons, and
that's where you list your valueproposition yeah, it's almost
like a cover letter, point 2.0version yeah essentially, but
yeah, no, literally, you setyour sources and then at the end
is thanking them again forlistening, for reading your
email, for offering you theposition.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
I look forward to hearing back from you, and
that's it.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
You send off that email, yeah remember, when
you're thanking them for thelast time, to again open it up
to a conversation, right?
Don't be like so.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
This is what I am what I want peace out yeah peace
out, like, if you don't offer,don't email me back.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
No, right, you want to be.
You know, I'm open to aconversation.
I'm open to to again lookingforward to hearing from you back
.
Here are times and dates.
I'm open to again lookingforward to hearing from you back
.
Here are times and dates.
I'm available, phone number,all those different things,
because again, it's acollaboration, it is really
teamwork.
You're problem solving, you'retrying to come to a compromise,
so both parties are winning,right, they want you.
If not, they wouldn't haveoffered you the job.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Exactly.
Yes, that's a really importantthing to remember is that they
want you.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
So they're also willing to do.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
You know they're not willing to lose you yeah you
have to think about in the senseof the employer is like dang.
Finally, we got a goodcandidate that we really want on
our team, so they're gonna tryto do what they can to keep you
agree, agree yeah, so those arethe ways to structure this email
and some of the main things tothink about when negotiating.
So, as we wrap up this episode,three things that we want to
(45:47):
leave you with.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
OK, so negotiation is expected.
Arminé, do not be afraid, don'tbe nervous, don't be hesitant,
because they're expecting itanyway.
It's now really just about yourapproach expecting it anyway.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It's now really just about your approach, yeah, and
with that, your approach shouldbe very collaborative, going in
with the mindset that this is awin-win situation.
You're not competing with theemployer, they're on your team,
they already offered you theposition, they want you on their
team, so it's thinking abouthow can you offer the best value
to them and then they can offerthe best that they can offer
you and that both parties arehappy at the end of this
(46:26):
negotiation.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, and probably one of the most important things
is know you know your value,know what you bring, know what
you can contribute.
Reflect on the amazingqualities that you are going to
only execute and bring to thisrole and to this team.
And, of course, do yourresearch, have data, have a
number to back you up?
(46:47):
Right, don't pull numbers outof thin air.
They really don't like that.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, and with that said, if anybody has any, if
you're in the process ofnegotiation or in the job search
process and you're thinkingthat this is going to come, up
soon.
You have questions, feel freeto email us or reach out to us
to do a career counselingsession.
We're more than happy tosupport you in this process.
welcome back welcome back everyone.
The last time we were here, itwas hot and it was the start of
fall.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's october now and it's still hot yeah, it's gonna
be 103 degrees this weekend.
That's gross.
I know I was like preparing myfall outfits.
Little did I know we're stillin the middle of summer so gross
.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Um, but anybody any.
Any way, happy october.
It is the first couple days ofoctober and it feels very
festive out in the world, sohappy october from us to you yes
, spooky season is upon us loveit.
We are so excited to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
We have a couple updates drum roll, we actually
have a winner for our contest.
Yes, uh.
Thank you to rachel, who wrotea review and uh rated our
podcast.
So therefore, you have won afree counseling session with MJ
(01:03):
and myself.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Absolutely, and we do want to read the review because
we really enjoy hearing whatyou guys have to say and
implement it into our show Right.
It's an amazing opportunitythat we get to interact with you
all.
So the review reads foundArmanay and this podcast, thanks
(01:24):
to MJ who helped me when I wasa student at UCLA.
Truly appreciate all the worky'all do.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Helps keep my spirits up in this tough job market.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Thank you, that is so sweet.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That is so sweet.
It's so nice to hear that likeyou know there's a positive
influence from this podcast inpeople's lives, because the job
market is tough and it can be alittle.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
What's the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Like it can make someone feel small.
You know, and I think you knowthat's one of the reasons we're
doing this podcast is to empowerpeople.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So that's really sweet to hear.
And, just so you know, Iimmediately knew who you were
when I saw your name.
Yeah, immediately, Iimmediately knew who you were.
I remember your major and Iremember the conversations that
we had and even some of theevents you attended.
So know that as much as we haveleft an impact on you, you have
also left an impact on thestaff that interacted with you
(02:19):
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's amazing.
I love when we can remember ourstudents, and they do.
Our clients, our students youall make a big impact on us, so
I'm actually excited to meet youRachel.
Yeah, when we do our session.
So we will reach out to you inresponse to this and go ahead
and schedule that session, butyou all do leave an impact on us
(02:44):
, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, we love it, and thank you so much for the
rating.
Thank you so much for everyoneelse who has also committed to
some of the reviews, right, someof the more recent ones also
talk about.
I can't stress enough howhelpful all the tips you two
talk about with all the thingscareer related, with a capital C
from using LinkedIn and theinteresting things AI can do and
(03:07):
how to properly use it as atool as well.
Oh sorry, there's more to that,so I have this podcast saved and
set to automatically downloadnude episodes as they come out.
You guys have such a naturalflow when talking about all your
topics and really enjoy that.
You, that about you too.
It keeps me engaged and makesme feel part of the conversation
(03:28):
.
I recommend coffee and careerhour to everyone and I can't
wait to continue listening toall the amazing topics you guys
have cooking up for us love thatreview.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
That is a special one , for sure.
Um, and this next review aswell is like near and dear to my
heart because it like almostencompasses the heart of the
podcast.
Right, they titled it these Arethe Friends you Need and they
are sharing.
In short, it's helpful advicefrom the heart.
(04:00):
Armin and MJ give youactionable tips and strategies
to move through your career withpurpose and through honoring
your values.
Oh, that sounds so warm.
I love it.
It sounds very full, yeah, verycozy.
(04:25):
It really does.
So we are really grateful tokind of get these reviews, um,
and and see that you're allgetting the feeling and the
heart behind this podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, that's what we're here for.
Um, we really do hope thatthese are opportunities to
listen, learn, but also get toknow us just a little bit more
as well?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, definitely.
So, with that said, you knowwe've been talking a lot about
different practical careerstrategies and tips to help you
in different aspects of yourcareer, decision making and in
our last episode we talked aboutnegotiation, the importance of
negotiation, and today we wantto actually follow up on that
(05:11):
topic with more practicalstrategies on how to do
negotiation.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You can never have enough negotiation conversations
because it's something that Ithink that is commonly said to
do and to put into practice, tobe proactive when you're looking
for an opportunity.
But I also think it's one ofthose things that is so taboo.
Right to like equal to money,right?
How much do you make?
How do you talk about it?
(05:36):
Because we're so trained in inthe western culture that we
shouldn't talk about money.
You shouldn't ask about it youshould just take what you have
be grateful, I also come from aculture, or just be grateful for
what you have right, just justdon't ask for more.
Be grateful for what you have,because at least you have that.
So it's one of these thingswhere we're happy to be people
who can empower you.
(05:58):
I love the word, I love that youuse that word in the beginning,
so I'm going to continue toempower you with strategies,
tools and resources to feel thebest way possible financially
through the opportunities withwithin your work, because it's
really important that you'realso paid what you, what you are
(06:19):
.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Negotiation is a scary topic as it is, and,
coming from cultures that wecome from as well, it is very uh
taboo to talk about money.
Right like same with theArmenian culture as well.
It's like, um, you need to begrateful for the opportunities
that you have.
So take what you can get anddon't complain.
(06:41):
You get what you get and youdon't complain.
That's what we've been raisedon, that's for sure, and I think
those are very common in many,uh, immigrant cultures.
Right coming here to the us,you already have these big
opportunities, so you need to begrateful.
But the reality is that there'sa system, we live in a system
and there are common practicesand unspoken rules and I think,
(07:05):
just being first generationprofessionals navigating this
world, we're learning how tonavigate those systems and we
want to share that knowledgewith you all too.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm excited to put these into
practice in my next role because, MJ if you heard the last one
I've never negotiated before.
I've always had the mentalityand the opportunities that I
have had.
They've always been the onlyopportunity I've been offered,
so I didn't feel like I hadanything to negotiate for or
with, because it was always anew grad, or just you know never
(07:37):
done it.
Very scared.
It was jobless.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
That's another story for another day and I just need
to take it, because I need a joband I need income so I'm
excited to put these intopractice yeah, later no.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I negotiated.
It was scary for sure.
I actually had my husband helpme yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, you got to use the environment, the, the
community that you have.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, and you know it .
Yes, I'm a career counselor,but also, like my husband had
more experience with negotiatingand he had read this great book
, that is really like you're allequipped with some of those
tools and language that you canuse in your in your next role.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, and we're excited to hear how you, how you
use these and how they'vehelped, and what have you
learned and how you've grown too.
So kicking things off with someof the obvious things to us as
career counselors, but not soobvious.
When you are getting, or in theposition of getting, a job
offer, every hiring manager,every person who calls you to
(08:54):
offer you an opportunity, isexpecting that you are going to
negotiate Flatline.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, and nobody tells you this when you're first
starting off.
It's so weird, it's so awkward.
It is awkward, but it's likethis when you're first starting
off.
It's so weird, it's so awkward,it is awkward, but it's like
this unspoken rule yeah, thatcompanies will give you an offer
expecting that you're going tonegotiate, so you can already
(09:21):
imagine they're going to aimlower because they're thinking
there might leave some room togo higher when you negotiate.
If you do, yeah, but nobodyknows this.
You know it's um growing up andapplying to your first
professional jobs.
You might not know that you'reexpected to negotiate and you
might be super excited to getthe offer and just take what you
get.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
You know and they take note if you negotiate or
not and how much you negotiatedfor, and they will internalize
that and they'll have thatdecision with whatever committee
they're working with too.
So, um, pros, cons, so thattype of thing.
But everybody's expecting youto negotiate.
So, yes, they're going to aimlow, so you also have some type
(09:58):
of number to kind of go off of.
But it has to be a very much socollaborative environment.
There has to be an opportunityfor you to give and take, and
remember that when it comes tonegotiation, our main thought
that comes across is money.
So, yes, there are numbers, butthere are also different things
that you can negotiate.
For example, one of the biggestthings that people have been
(10:19):
negotiating since COVID isremote work, right.
So if, let let's say, you can'tcome to the compromise of
finding a good number that worksfor you both, if you accept the
number they offer, can you workfrom home three days, two days
a week, right.
Yeah, working conditions,healthcare benefits Absolutely
(10:40):
Really, really anything Vacationdiscounts to childcare, access
to childcare in some differentway or parental leave.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Mm-hmm, any kind of other perks and benefits?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
could be negotiated.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
But truth be told, as career counselors we do see
that majority of the time peopleare trying to negotiate
salaries.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, it's harder to kind of negotiate the other
aspects because it's much moreof an HR thing.
Right, the hiring managerusually is expecting you to
negotiate the money when itcomes to remote work and
different types of benefits andperks really discounts or
anything like that that has togo through HR and a lot of
documentation, so that's notreally seen as much as the money
(11:21):
aspect.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Exactly so.
With that being said, you knowwhen you are negotiating.
Regardless of what aspect ofthe offer you're negotiating,
you want to keep in mind thatit's not a win-lose situation.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
You're not competing with the employer at this point.
They're giving you an offer, soyou guys are on the same team
at this point.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So going into this negotiation with a mindset of
you guys are on the same teamand the goal or whatever common
ground you come to, it shouldbenefit both parties yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
It's not a quick and easy conversation where armenia
offers me five dollars and I sayI want 10 and then she's like,
no, sorry, I can't do that.
Sometimes it is as quick asthat, but it it all comes down
to your approach and what is onthe table what is being offered,
how much room there is in thebudget.
You also hear those terms a lottoo, but it is really a win-win.
You're trying to come to acompromise and that's where you
(12:15):
really want to also demonstrateyour brainstorming opportunity
and your teamwork ability andyour openness to work with them.
You don't want to be like,sorry, I don't want to accept
your $5.
I'm worth more than that.
Peace out.
Yeah, that's not the bestapproach.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And I think, on the other end of that, where a lot
of people get stuck and getscared to negotiate, is that if
they negotiate and ask forsomething that the employer
can't meet, that they're goingto take away the offer or
something along those lines.
I know as counselors we alwaystell our clients that they are
(12:52):
not going to take away the offer.
That is not part of commonpractice at all, if you try to
negotiate.
if they can't meet that or theydon't have room in the budget or
anything, they will let youknow, but they're not going to
be like oh, never mind, we'renot going to, we're taking away
this offer because you're tryingto ask for more than what we
can get 100%.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
That's not best practice and if it is, find
another employer.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's a huge red flag at the start.
You haven't even startedworking for them.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So, yes, it is not what we can offer.
This is what the job pays.
This is the benefits.
This is what the breakdownlooks like.
There's no room in the budget.
This is what we have allocatedfor this position we need your
decision at this time and date.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
So what's the worst that can happen?
They can say no, and thenthat's when you decide like,
okay, you're going to take theoffer or not take away the offer
, then that's different.
But if you haven't accepted yet, you are free to decline the
(13:56):
offer if it doesn't really meetyour needs 100 yeah.
So, with that being said, youdon't have much to lose at this
part of the game, becausethey're expecting you to
negotiate and you might not getexactly what you ask for, but
you might come to a commonground, which is what usually
happens.
So, with that same note, whatis the common or the standard
(14:17):
percentage mj for people torequest like a higher?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
amount than what they're being offered 20 yeah so
if let's say, in a non-idealworld, I'm offering armenia 100
bucks for this, job that she'sgoing to work for me as a career
counselor.
I'm going to offer you ahundred bucks a month.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
She can negotiate for 120, right, 20% more.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
If I'm doing the math correctly, it's 20% more.
So she can say well, can I have120, right?
Obviously the conversationwouldn't be like that.
There's different tactics andlanguage she would use, but
essentially it's 20%.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, so you can ask for 20 more.
Very rarely will that be likethat.
They can offer you that much.
But then you're thinking, okay,they're gonna go down to about
10, yeah I can meet you in themiddle so you end up getting 10
more than what was being offered.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Absolutely, absolutely a lot of times you
know, like if you are successfulor not, again the worst thing
they can say is no.
You also have to be very awareof what you are researching when
it comes to that role and whatthe average pay is.
If you're asking for like 50,70% more than what they're
offering, they're going to belike uh, no, it's like
unrealistic, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Your request has to be realistic too, in terms of
what the market looks like forthis type of position, which is
one of the biggest rules ofnegotiation is do your research.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Absolutely.
You, yeah doing your researchis so important.
It shows not only a certainlevel of preparedness to the
employer, but it also leaves animpression and you always want
to leave great impressions.
But you come knowing what youbring to the table, what you can
contribute to this team andthis company, and that's what
you want to do, that's what youwant to lead with.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, definitely.
You've got to know your valueand you want to come from a
position of strength, not aposition of sales.
If, if you catch what I'msaying there, like you're not
selling yourself it's not apitch in that sense but you're
coming from a true like,meaningful, thoughtful place of
(16:27):
like.
Here are all the things that Ican do for your company and that
I bring this wealth ofknowledge and experience with me
, so like I want to do thesethings, but this is what I would
need in return yeah, you're nota third party, you're not a
third party company that they'rehiring to do a specific service
I mean the technical way.
(16:47):
Yes, if we want to consider thata job.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
But if this is more so like you apply to this job
because you want to do it, youhave some type of interest
towards it, you want to comefrom this genuine place of not
just saying this is what I have,or this is what I'll take away
and my type of service to thisjob.
You're not.
You're not your own salespersonin that way, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So that's gonna be like in the tone of the email
that you send and the way thatyou're saying what you're saying
.
So we'll kind of talk about howto structure that email in a
little bit too.
But to give you some statisticson how common negotiation is
and what the results are,according to some research done,
there's 38% of professionalssay that they haven't negotiated
(17:30):
because they don't feelcomfortable asking for higher
salaries.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I believe that I'm part of the 38.
I did not come from a place ofstrength.
I did not come from a place ofknowing my value.
I did not come from a placewhere I felt confident to do
that, so I definitely am in the38% and agree agree with that.
And it really is a level ofcomfort.
It's almost like um asking formore again.
(17:56):
It comes for me.
It comes back to that piece oflike being grateful and it's
weird like I'm super grateful tohave this title, this role,
this position, the school, likeall these different things, what
I'm supposed to ask for morelike you're not supposed to take
more than what you've beengiven, right?
So I get it.
And I mean everyone has theirreasons to negotiate and why
they don't want to negotiate, sothat's also something too yeah,
(18:18):
no, it is super uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's why I had to have my husband help me too,
because I felt the same way oflike, should I even be asking
for a higher salary, like youknow?
And then he actually coached me.
It's so interesting now that Ithink about it.
He's like you have to thinkabout all the skills that you
have and what you can offer andthe value that you bring and I
was like oh my gosh.
Yes, it's true, but I felt thesame way too, of like, do I even
(18:42):
deserve to have a higher salary?
But 38% of professionals andthat's a pretty big number, I
think.
In my opinion, Most peopleoften aren't comfortable
negotiating, Um like alsobecause of lack of confidence or
job security, like that fearthat this opportunity is going
(19:02):
to be taken away from them,which that's really sad.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's almost a third .
Well, that's, I'm sorry that'sover a third of employees who
don't, who don't feel that wayand that lack of um, the lack of
confidence is huge because,right, like if I'm negotiating
with you, armin, and I'm like Ican bring you student service
right, and I'm like questioningmyself and you hear it and you
don't see it, or I'm like youcould tell if I'm sending you
(19:28):
something, but I know, I don't.
I don't live up to that tone orthat sense of confidence that is
in my email.
That clearly looks like someoneelse wrote it, yeah, or maybe
nowadays AI wrote it right.
If you're bringing that and youdon't know how to articulate
again your value, yourcontribution, your strengths,
your confidence to this role andwhat you can can offer, right,
that's also something too sothat's huge and that's more of
(19:50):
an internal, internalconversation again you have
people, counselors like armeniaand myself yeah, um, resources
that are here to help you dothat too.
The job security scary,especially in this job market.
Right, people are like, uh,let's skip the negotiation.
That can happen in six monthsto a year, depending on what
type of environment you work inindustry I just need a job.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I just need income yeah, yeah, because some
companies you might not be ableto ask for a raise, like if
you're going into corporate,maybe because corporate runs a
little differently.
But if you're going into likegovernment and city and county
type of work or education, goodluck, because they they ain't
got no budget to like beoffering your raise at random
(20:33):
times in the year.
The best you get is like thethree percent raise every
calendar year less than fivepercent raise absolutely that's,
that's absolutely true, sothinking about what industries
you're going into, becausecertain industries, yeah, they
have different times in the yearthey do bonuses and things like
that, but not many industriesdon't do that.
(20:53):
They just don't have the budgetfor it.
So it's like it's now or never,basically to negotiate a higher
salary yeah, it's really crazy,because then you don't know
where to pitch yourself.
And then let's say you meetsomeone or somebody on your team
, who's doing it and theynegotiate.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's very complex, like the whole conversation
about it and the thought processthat goes behind it.
So, yeah, you're not alone Imean ultimately too, like,
remember, you're not alone.
There's people who've done this, there's people who've
successfully done it and peoplewho who've attempted may not
have been successful, but hey,they still they still feel good
about what they tried, and atleast they tried, they made an
effort, yeah yeah, and um, evenlike those of us who have, like,
(21:29):
I've tried it, I didn'tnecessarily ask for the 20%.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
More like that to me was super uncomfortable.
I was like, oh, no way I'mgonna ask for this amount, right
?
Um, so I found an amount thatlike made sense for me and we're
gonna talk about how to do thatresearch and so forth but I
found an amount that made sensefor me, that I felt comfortable
enough asking where I didn'tfeel like I was like undeserving
(21:52):
of that salary.
But now, thinking back, I'm like, you know, there is a common
practice of 20 percent, so Icoach my students and clients on
being comfortable with askingfor that if it makes sense based
on the research as well, but Iknow that that for me was
uncomfortable too.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The other thing a lot of people don't tend to
remember in the part of thenegotiation, right, because
they're giving you.
We're strictly talking aboutmoney right now.
Right, they're giving you anumber.
I'm giving you $100 a month,for example, or $1,000, whatever
you want to consider.
I'm not thinking in that momenthow much you're going to take
out of my taxes, how much if?
I'm filing my taxes single, orjoin in what that's going to
(22:32):
look like, how much I'm making,how much my medical benefits, my
eye doctor, my dent, like allof these, my pet insurance, for
God's sake, like all thesethings that you don't think
about, like, wait, I thought Iwas going to make a hundred
dollars a month.
What do you mean?
I'm going to make 54 bucks.
Yeah, it's so true.
(22:54):
So that's why there's this 20%too, because it's like, it's not
like, let's say, you'resupposed to make a thousand but
out of that thousand let's say,I don't know, half his taxes
you're going to only make like$523.
There's a lot that goes into itas well, which is why the 20% is
there, because a good five to10%, how much extra like a few
extra dollars on your paycheck.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, no, it's true.
So thinking about all thedifferent aspects and the
formulas that go into play andwhat actual dollar amount you
make at the end of the month isgoing to look a little different
.
They're giving you their grossincome salary information in the
offer and not considering allthe deductions that are going to
(23:31):
come into play.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Absolutely, and again we're talking about salaries.
Right, we're talking aboutsalary opportunities not hourly.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes, so that's going to look different for part-time
or less than full-time roles.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So just know that for sure, especially if you're
someone making minimum wage oryou're in an area where that's
at the set limit there mayreally not be room for
negotiation, because that's whatit is.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Right.
There may really not be roomfor negotiation, because that's
what it is, right.
That might look a littledifferent, but, on a positive
note, in this research studythey found that 85% of the
people who negotiated didreceive at least some of what
they asked for that's awesome,isn't that so cool?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That is way more than what I was expecting, but it
makes sense.
Yeah, right, again, it's thatimpression that you leave, it's
the fact that you advocate,because it is a sense of
self-advocating for yourself andyou're standing up for what you
bring.
You know what you're bringing.
So guess what?
The employer, the hiringmanager, is going to trust you
best, because who knows youbetter than you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Definitely so.
With that being said, there'slight at the end of the tunnel.
I'm going to negotiate my nextone-on-one.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm just kidding.
Hey, put these skills intopractice, MJ, and then let us
know how it goes.
I love it.
It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
But with that being said, you know there is a pretty
good chance that you might getsomething out of this
negotiation process.
So let's talk a little bitabout actual tips and strategies
for how to do the negotiation.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, Armin, first things first.
Again, you need to know you.
You need to know what you'rebringing.
So, not just what was on yourresume, but what are the extra
bits and pieces that you left inyour back pocket for that
interview, for you to be like,hey, those impact statements
that I wrote, let me show youand let me tell you how that's
going to be beneficial towardsyou and your organization, but
again coming from a place ofgenuine want and interest not
(25:19):
just I'm selling my service toyou.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah.
It's a two-way street.
It is and it's thinking about,like the impact you've made,
let's say, in a previous job orif you're, you know you've had,
let's say, you're in school, butyou've developed a lot of these
skills through extracurriculars.
Whatever your situation was theimpact that you made at your
(25:43):
previous location.
You want to include that in thenegotiation process.
That's going to helpdemonstrate the value that you
bring right not just the tasksyou did, but what impact did you
make?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
yeah, so for example, I always use myself, because
it's easy to use our experiencesas an example, and the new ones
, I didn't just see students andreview their resumes and cover
letters, but I created or builtstrong relationships with the
student body to genuinely impact, increase their career
readiness upon graduation.
That is the value that I bringright.
(26:18):
It's not just me knowing how todo spacing and margins on a
document.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, definitely, and like, if you think about things
, you've went above and beyondat your previous job or in your
previous roles where you didthings outside of the basic job
description.
Yeah, um, those are things youcan use as well to help
demonstrate your value.
So the first thing is thatself-reflection piece,
absolutely maybe writing it downsomewhere.
(26:43):
Put a whiteboard up, put a pento paper, whatever, put your
computer screen on and type itout.
But do some kind ofbrainstorming process to
identify what value do you bringto this profession?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
yeah, if it helps and you feel like you can go to a
trusted person.
Mentor um.
In this case it was armena'shusband right um, a friend, your
previous supervisor andco-workers?
Yeah, absolutely this alsohelps, too, to help like
brainstorm if you're feelingstuck and I know how can you
(27:20):
feel stuck.
If you got the right, there's aton of emotions that come up.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So also, you can also include people in your
community that can help you withthis process as well yeah, to
just like talk through it, oryou could work with a career
counselor, yeah, yeah, and cometalk to us either one of us or,
if you're at a school, go to thecareer center at your school,
right, but talk to somebody whocan like help you process these
ideas and maybe like just be asounding board for you to figure
(27:46):
out, like okay, what are allthe?
things that you did and whatwere the results of those things
Like, okay, what are?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
all the things that you did and what were the
results of those things?
Yeah, I'm just reflecting onthe last year.
I had a lot of students comeand talk about this and you know
what was the best part was wegot to do role play of what that
looked like, and that's reallyhelpful too.
So that's another strategy ofyou practicing out what that
looks like and how to offer whatlanguage to use, what
statements to include, whatskills and abilities to mention
(28:11):
as well?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, definitely.
So let's say, you do thatself-reflection process, you
talk to people who, like, canmentor you through this as well,
and you identify, like OK,these are the values that I
bring to this profession.
What's next, mj?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
What's next?
Well, we did talk about ourresearch, so that's really
what's next right Is yes,traditionally, you want to think
about research as you'reapplying for different roles too
.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
But then now comes okay, you've been offered.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
It's now getting serious right Relationship.
You're no longer dating.
You're looking to marry in aspecific term Now.
So I'm going to do my researchfor this position in my state,
in my city, for example, in mycounty.
How much is?
Generally what is the average?
And you can go back to the partone of this essentially to look
(29:04):
at what are the websites andtools you can use to do this?
Again, there's that 20%, that'sover.
But you also want to do yourresearch and look through the
data that's out there todetermine that number for you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, and one part of like doing the research is okay
.
Yes, you identify like what arecommon salary ranges for your
job, your profession, within aparticular location, and in our
previous episode we talk aboutwebsites that you can use to do
this research.
But that's one part of theresearch piece.
The other part is doing yourown budgeting.
You got to do your own likefinancial calculations to see
(29:42):
how much do you actually need tolive, what is your like minimum
, minimum that you need to beable to live in the location
that you're at, and then whatwould be your ideal, because
that's going to help you come upwith that middle ground number
that you can help negotiate, askfor in your negotiation process
, where you might not get theideal but hopefully you also
(30:05):
won't get the minimum you'll getsomething a little bit above
the minimum.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Great to that point.
Um, you want to make surewithin those ranges you have
something that you're notwilling to go below.
You really need to in thismoment, not stand your ground
per se, but just know what yourlimits and boundaries are right,
Like I'm offering her $100.
She's not going to go less than$120.
Okay, she's going to offer $160.
(30:29):
Maybe I can't do $160 160, butI can do 140.
But she's armin is definitelynot gonna go for 120.
So again you need to know whatyour limits are, but also what
you need to survive.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, because you know this is a transaction
at the end of the day, this is acontract at the end of the day
of like I offer this to you andthis is what I get in return
type of deal.
Um, okay, so you know your worth, you know your value, you've
done your research.
You know what amounts you needminimum, what amounts are ideal.
(31:03):
You have like a general range.
Um, on that note, when you areasking for in that negotiation
email, you don't want to putjust one number, you want to
give them a range of likebetween this and this amount
something to note be wise andpractice wisely when you do this
(31:26):
, because the lowest number theyhear is the highest number
they're going to go for too.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
So you want to think about that.
If I'm going to offer armine105 and she's like, okay, we'll
go for 105, my range is 105 to160 guess what I'm not going to
offer her 160 because her rangeis 105.
Yeah, the lowest number you gofor is probably the highest,
they're going to offer.
If they don't have room forthat, they'll negotiate under
that too yeah, but it's having arange um, it's just common
(31:57):
practice demonstratesflexibility.
You're willing to work the openyeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Um, and there's this another like nuance to the
number that you offer you wantto stay away from like round
numbers.
Yeah, like fifty thousanddollars, for example, annually.
That you shouldn't be sayinglike a round number, like that,
it should be like fifty onethousand three hundred and
twenty five, like a veryspecific number because that
(32:23):
implies that you didcalculations.
You looked at your financialsituation, you calculated how
much you need to live andsurvive, plus, you also did your
research to see how much peoplemake in this field, and in that
formula you came up with thisvery specific number correct.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You negotiated perfectly.
You have whatever you want,absolutely.
Again, it's that level ofpreparedness versus someone
who's like all right, I wantlike 5 000 more what?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
yeah, just out of nowhere you, you're like, yeah,
okay, cool.
Like if you just give me 50K,I'm good, 60k I'm good.
Like that doesn't show that youwere thoughtful, you know, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You got to think about all of the different life
factors that can come into playhere, but absolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah.
So in that, along those samenotes, before writing out this
email or having thisconversation, you want to
practice your talking points.
So thinking about OK, what arethe specific, basically like
quote unquote, counter argumentsyou're going to make to say to
show them, like, why you aredeserving of this higher salary,
(33:28):
what are the values that youbring to this employer?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
you've got to like have specific examples of that
yeah, and again, you're notreiterating what's in your
documents or what you saidthrough the interview, right?
You're talking about legitimateexamples, strategies, abilities
, things that reallydifferentiate you like, your
reasons why you should earn this.
You're not going to go in there,so here's another thing too
you're not going to go in thereand be like well, you know, like
(33:54):
well I, I have like three kidsand and I need child care and
and my husband's not working atthe moment and knowledge, no,
because guess what, I'm so sorry, in the us nobody cares like we
care because I'm, we're human.
Yeah, of course you can tellarmenina and and I that, but
don't tell the employer that,because they're not gonna care
at the end of the day.
(34:14):
You're there to do the job.
Yeah, that's what they so yougotta really think about.
What are your reasons why youshould be making this much?
What are your reasons why weshould pay you?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
yeah, put yourself in the shoes of the employer, like
if you were hiring somebody.
What would be the reasons whyyou would be willing to give
this person more money?
Yeah, yeah, like in your field.
What is the kind of knowledge,the kind of skills, the kind of
energy that you would expectfrom a really high performing
employee in your field?
(34:47):
Right, and then why would theybe deserving more salary?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Yeah, it's jumping out to me and I have to say I
mean like for you.
I could just imagine youtalking about how much of a
leader you are, how muchleadership skill and energy you
bring.
You unite people without youbeing in the specific roles,
like a director, for example,where you can do that.
So you gotta also identifythese different pieces,
absolutely yeah, get, yeah, getwhatever you want.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Thank you, hire me.
No, but it's true, and this isa perfect point of like where
you can ask your colleagues.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Or even classmates, if you're in school right now,
like what are some skills theysee in you that are like unique
to you, that you bring to a teamdynamic?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
You know, absolutely.
And it's in these things thatyou can really highlight the
value that you bring and, yes,you do have something different
than the other person, becauseguess what?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
At the end of the day , that's why they offered you
the job, and not the second andthird pick Exactly, and the
other people also who were incompetition with you maybe have
the same degrees or the samequalifications, like they meet
the minimum, like knowledge andskill level.
So you all meet those.
But what differentiated youfrom them?
That's what you got to thinkabout.
It's got to be the energy andthe passion and the other um
(36:02):
transferable skills that youbring to this role.
So those are things you canlean on in this negotiation
conversation 100.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, but now, MJ, my question is are we doing this
in email?
Are we doing this in phone?
Are we doing this in person?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes.
So I think you and I we differa little bit on this type of
conversation, but that's okay,because it can be done in both
ways.
In my thought process, there'sa lot of ways in which you can
kind of talk about this right.
So once you get the offerletter we mentioned this last
time too they're going to giveyou a call.
Hey, armanay, really enjoyedyou, very much impressed, and
(36:43):
our team would love to offer youthe position of director of my
university, whatever.
So here's what we're thinking.
This is what we have.
Um, we will send you an emailwith an offer letter up there.
Um, if possible.
We would like to know yourdecision by next friday around 3
pm.
Um, if you have any questions,you can let me know, reach me
(37:05):
back at this number, email meand I'd be happy to chat.
Armenia then goes doesn't agreeor disagree to the offer.
Is very grateful over thatphone call.
Does not pick that as a time tonegotiate because, remember,
everybody's expecting you tonegotiate.
Once you receive the offerletter.
There's two ways in which youcan handle this.
I'm for writing an email,writing again stating your
(37:29):
gratitude, your thankfulnesstowards this, and then also
writing your counter offers aswell in the email.
Or you can ask to set up a.
If you're in the opportunity todo face-to-face conversation,
have a face-to-face conversationor over zoom.
Um, the actual negotiation partin my thought process should,
(37:50):
should not happen over email.
The counter can, but not theactual conversation.
That's my.
I don't know if I explainedthat too much.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
No, that was perfect.
Yeah, and we touched on this inour last episode too.
So, yes, you can definitely dothat in a actual conversation.
Um, in the experience I've hadbefore and the students I've
worked with as well, it's kindof happened over email.
So I've seen it happen.
That's why I'm like alsocomfortable with the email,
because you could be thoughtfulabout the responses and you
(38:19):
don't have that pressure of likehaving to respond right away.
So I think my approach is likemore comfortable over email.
But I think it's also going toheavily depend on the employer
and their style of communication, right, I agree.
So you kind of also have to goalong with how they approach the
situation.
But, maybe it would be worth youthinking about what you're
(38:43):
comfortable with and maybepreparing for both scenarios,
and if you can lean one way orthe other, then you choose what
you want to do over email or inperson.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, and I will say too so, depending on industry,
you may not always benegotiating with the actual
hiring manager.
So, like your manager on theteam, so let's say I offer
Armini the job, but I'm like, ok, you know, sally is going to
send you Sure Sally.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Sally's going to send you.
Sorry, I don't know why I wasrethinking the name.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Sally's going to send you the offer letter and maybe
you negotiate with Sally, withuh, with sally now, with me,
yeah, um, so it could alsodepend there, I agree.
Communication stuff, but alsowho you're negotiating with is
going to also look verydifferent yeah, it could be the
recruiter, it could be the hrrep, who knows?
Or if, you're working withsomeone who's like helping you
get recruited, the negotiationcould also happen through them
(39:38):
too, so it just there's a lot ofdifferent ways here.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
There is, and in those nuances, if actually if
you're in any of these processesand have a question, that would
be a great time to actuallyreach out to a career counselor
like ourselves to maybe help younavigate that particular
situation that you're in,depending on who the employer is
if.
If you need to reword, the email, figure out how to propose your
(40:03):
counter offer or whatever youneed, and that like particular
nuances.
It's hard to say in generalhere, like how to navigate those
, because it's going to be verydependent on your unique
situation.
Yeah, so those would be greattopics to kind of offer career
counseling sessions for.
But with that said, you know,whatever the process is that you
(40:24):
establish with your employerand you do your counter offer
and you are now in the processof negotiation.
I always like to, like you know,err on the side of like taking
time to respond.
You know once they say okay,this is the offer that we can
make spot.
You know, once they say okaythis is the offer that we can
(40:45):
make.
Um, it's always reallyprofessional to be thoughtful,
even if you know, in the momentthat you're gonna take it just
to be thoughtful and like holdoff.
I'm like okay, thank you somuch when can I let you know by
like final goodbye yeah, thatdidn't.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
That was not my experience.
I said yes in a moment.
But again, I think this wordcomes back to my relationship
with the person who called me.
It was a very differentsituation.
So I like was like yes, yes,yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited
I'll take the job.
So if it was someone else, Ithink, if it wasn't, the person
completely reacted the wayyou're saying like thank you so
much.
(41:18):
I look forward to seeing um theoffer letter and then letting
you know, by said date, saidtime.
So yeah, mj's story is a littlebit different, but that's it for
another day.
But armena if it's my firsttime negotiating, how the heck
do I even structure this email?
What do I put?
What do I say?
Is it weird?
Do I?
Do I put in the subject likenegotiation?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
like, what do I do?
Negotiation that is so cute.
Yes, okay, let's talk about howto structure the email.
The very, very first thing youalways want to do is thank the
employer for the offer, right?
So this is one day like sendthat original offer, like
congratulations, et cetera, likehere's the attached as your
(42:00):
offer letter you reply to thatemail with a thing being
thankful and showing yourgratitude for that offer,
regardless of what that offer is.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Agree, okay what's the next step?
Next step is you want torestate your interest in the
position, right?
You want to talk about whyyou're excited about this role,
but also show gratitude for theoffer.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
So again thanking them.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yes but also propose your negotiation.
This is where you can lay outreally really well your research
, both your interpersonalreflection of finances, how much
it costs to live.
Let's say if you're moving to anew state change of change of
pay, right.
If you're coming from Michiganor from Idaho to California,
(42:46):
it's very, very different, right?
The, the, the pay and what thatlooks like to live in
California is insane.
Again making me want tonegotiate, um, but this is where
you lay out your research,where you got it from the
numbers, all those differentthings and backing up with your
value proposition, right?
Do you remember your elevatorpitch and why you and?
Speaker 2 (43:07):
why this position?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
all that great stuff.
That's where you throw this inthere, but again with those
concrete reasons and statementsand values and skills and
abilities, qualifications, whyyou, why you deserve to make
this much money, why you deserveto earn from this company
because of all the amazingthings you're going to
contribute yeah, yeah, so it'sthat that's like the heart of
(43:29):
your email, right, the actualvalue proposition.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
But uh, going back to that point of like referencing
your research, we literally beenreferencing, like when you're
in school and you cite yoursources.
Correct.
That is according to salarycom.
X, y and Z position in LosAngeles.
California makes this rangeyeah.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
You're not going to be like.
My husband thinks I should make10,000 more.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
That's what my reference is which?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, seriously, but yeah, it would be like.
According to this source, thisis how much the range is, and
you could list a couple ofsources.
Furthermore, according to thisother website, this is how much
the salary range is, based on myresearch and my calculations of
um minimum like salaryrequirements in los angeles,
california.
(44:15):
I am proposing this amount forthe following reasons, and
that's where you list your valueproposition.
Yeah, it's almost like a coverletter point Los Angeles,
california.
I am proposing this amount forthe following reasons, and
that's where you list your valueproposition yeah, it's almost
like a cover letter, point 2.0version yeah essentially, but
yeah, no, literally, you setyour sources and then at the end
is thanking them again forlistening, for reading your
email, for offering you theposition.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
I look forward to hearing back from you, and
that's it.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
You send off that email, yeah remember, when
you're thanking them for thelast time, to again open it up
to a conversation, right?
Don't be like so.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
This is what I am what I want peace out yeah peace
out, like, if you don't offer,don't email me back.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
No, right, you want to be.
You know, I'm open to aconversation.
I'm open to to again lookingforward to hearing from you back
.
Here are times and dates.
I'm open to again lookingforward to hearing from you back
.
Here are times and dates.
I'm available, phone number,all those different things,
because again, it's acollaboration, it is really
teamwork.
You're problem solving, you'retrying to come to a compromise,
so both parties are winning,right, they want you.
If not, they wouldn't haveoffered you the job.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Exactly.
Yes, that's a really importantthing to remember is that they
want you.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
So they're also willing to do.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
You know they're not willing to lose you yeah you
have to think about in the senseof the employer is like dang.
Finally, we got a goodcandidate that we really want on
our team, so they're gonna tryto do what they can to keep you
agree, agree yeah, so those arethe ways to structure this email
and some of the main things tothink about when negotiating.
So, as we wrap up this episode,three things that we want to
(45:47):
leave you with.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
OK, so negotiation is expected.
Arminé, do not be afraid, don'tbe nervous, don't be hesitant,
because they're expecting itanyway.
It's now really just about yourapproach expecting it anyway.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It's now really just about your approach, yeah, and
with that, your approach shouldbe very collaborative, going in
with the mindset that this is awin-win situation.
You're not competing with theemployer, they're on your team,
they already offered you theposition, they want you on their
team, so it's thinking abouthow can you offer the best value
to them and then they can offerthe best that they can offer
you and that both parties arehappy at the end of this
(46:26):
negotiation.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, and probably one of the most important things
is know you know your value,know what you bring, know what
you can contribute.
Reflect on the amazingqualities that you are going to
only execute and bring to thisrole and to this team.
And, of course, do yourresearch, have data, have a
number to back you up?
(46:47):
Right, don't pull numbers outof thin air.
They really don't like that.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, and with that said, if anybody has any, if
you're in the process ofnegotiation or in the job search
process and you're thinkingthat this is going to come, up
soon.
You have questions, feel freeto email us or reach out to us
to do a career counselingsession.
We're more than happy tosupport you in this process.
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