December 5, 2024 • 39 mins
Answer this week's question...
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As entrepreneurs, sometimes we’re the ones handling everything. From content creation to customer emails - how can we possibly take the time to grieve and still show up for our businesses? Thankfully, in this episode of Coffee Social, we had a very special guest join us - Michelle Gil aka The Grief Curator.
Michelle guides us through understanding grief beyond the loss of a loved one, encompassing the loss of dreams or friendships, and highlights its unique impact on entrepreneurs. She unravels the concepts of grief and depression, offering practical insights for identifying and navigating these emotions daily to maintain balance in our lives.
Balancing the emotional weight of grief with the demands of business is no small feat, particularly during the hectic holiday period. This episode offers a candid discussion on setting boundaries, prioritizing self-care, and resisting cultural pressures to always be productive.
It’s not a light topic, but it is a topic that needs to be talked about more.
Grab a cup, enjoy, and please feel free to also share this episode with someone who is experiencing grief.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
: Is it depression or grief?
: Preparation is key for this time of year!
: Communicate and set boundaries.
: Lean in on virtual or in person therapy or grief groups.
: Give yourself permission to stop for a second.
: Build breaks to acknowledge grief during your work day.
DID YOU LOVE THIS EPISODE A LATTE? 😂
Give the podcast 5 STARS & write an awesome review! It helps your hosts so much!
PS: Mimi loves stars
Definition of Aforementioned: mentioned previously
MICHELLE’S LINKS
Holiday Grief-Line (3 Personalized, Emergency Calls)
https://thegriefcurator.com/holiday-grief-line/
The Grief Circle (Starts 1/25/2025)
https://thegriefcurator.com/grief-circle/
Grief Podcast: https://dont-tell-me-to-get-over-it.captivate.fm/listen
Instagram: @thegriefcurator
Website: https://thegriefcurator.com/
Substack: https://thegriefcurator.substack.com/
FOLLOW YOUR COFFEE SOCIAL HOSTS
Instagram: @coffeesocialpodcast
Jonathan: @jonathanrhoward
Mimi: @mimilangley_
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YouTube: @coffeesocialpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Start there, that grief is not something that you
get over.
It's not something you need toget over.
Once grief enters your life, itis there for the rest of your
life.
But that's not as scary as itsounds.
It's Coffee Social, the podcast, all about social media and
(00:24):
business.
And now here are your hosts,jonathan Howard and Mimi Langley
.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hey everyone, hi Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Howard.
Hello, mimi Langley, I've gotmy cheers cup ready.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, hold on Before we cheers.
Do you feel like that was toocheery?
I mean, we're talking aboutgrief today.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We are talking about grief today.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Should I be lower?
What do you guys?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
think I'm going to lower my voice.
What's that?
I'm going to lower my voice andI'm going to talk like this the
entire episode.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
No, we have to keep it real, jonathan, but yes,
cheers everyone.
This is the real me Cheers,cheers.
This is a real conversationabout grief.
This is a real conversationabout grief.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It is a real conversation about grief.
We're talking about grief today, with none other than Santa.
Santa.
No, we're not talking withSanta.
Ho, ho ho.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I was showing him my Santa mug.
We're talking with the MichelleGill, the grief curator.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Who is the?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
She's the grief curator.
She is the woman behind theopening song.
The words to Coffee Social.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, and you know what?
She doesn't sound anything likethe words in our opening, but
it's her.
She holds space for people.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So we thought Michelle would be perfect for an
episode like this, where we'regoing to be talking about
basically surviving the holidaysand really a lot of what we're
probably going to talk abouttoday you can bring with you
throughout the whole year,because grief is not just during
the holidays, and especially asan entrepreneur.
(02:00):
Jonathan, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I mean, I feel like we're always running and trying
to figure out what's going onnext and not paying attention to
what's actually happening inthe moment, and sometimes that
leads to us ignoring things likegrieving the people that we
love that are no longer with us,and stuff like that I think
it's time.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I think we need to get into this, so feel free,
grab a bottle of tissues.
She's coming in, so we're soexcited to have you here.
Girl, did you bring your coffee?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I brought my coffee.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay.
Well, this is the time tocheers, Cheers everyone.
Oh, I like the red, Michelle.
I don't know if you recognizethe no, who could?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
that be Very nice Thank you Hobby Lobby.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Shout out to Hobby Lobby.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Tell, tell everybody where we met jonathan we met um
in washington dc no I mean,where do we meet before in
person?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
what where do we meet , like before, in person, like
clubhouse oh, I'm like what.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Before we met in person, we were clubhouse
friends, yes, virtual friends.
So, yes, we got to meet inperson in DC in August, so she
knew we were real and yeah, soshould we jump into what we were
going to talk about today?
Now that we're done laughingand getting our laughs?
Out, I know we can be allserious for a second.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I know.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Or an hour.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
You're right, like now.
It's time we were kind ofexplaining, because this is just
our personality and usuallywhen you're talking about grief
it's not light like what we'remaking of it, michelle, that's
why we have you here, becauseyou are the grief curator.
You hold space for this kind ofthing that everybody goes
through Real quick.
Just to set this up before wedive into the first question
(03:52):
when someone hears the wordgrief, they just automatically
associate it with losing someone, and so they're like I've never
grieved anything, I've neverlost someone in my life.
Yet Can you just talk aboutgrief, because you talk about it
from all angles my life yet Canyou just talk about grief
Because you talk about it fromall angles.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yes, typically, when people hear the word grief, they
think of death in connectionwith that.
So no, my parents haven't died.
Nobody's died in my family.
Nobody I know has died.
So I don't grieve, or I'venever grieved.
(04:30):
But grief is about loss andwe've all lost something or
someone that might still bealive.
I like to say that grief doesinvolve death, but it's not
always a physical death.
But something has died, a dreamhas died, your hopes have died.
Maybe you have lost a friend.
It just didn't.
You lost touch.
It's not a physical death, butit's the death of a friendship.
(04:50):
So grief covers a lot of areasof life and oftentimes people
just don't recognize that that'swhat it is.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, well, that actually is a perfect transition
into the question you wanted toask, jonathan, but if you want
to set it is Okay.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, that actually is a perfect transition into the
question you wanted to ask,jonathan, but if you want to set
it up, yeah, I mean, really,the question that I wanted to
ask was more about.
So many people are strugglingthrough different things,
especially during the holidays,which is kind of what we're
talking about now.
So how do they know, even ifit's something, if they're
dealing with grief, if they'reunsure with all the heaviness
that we're dealing with asentrepreneurs, as people in, you
(05:28):
know, living right now in thisday and age, how do we know that
we're dealing with grief inthis situation?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
That is such a great question because it can be
difficult to tell.
Grief has so many layers.
One of the questions that Ihear quite often is is it grief
or depression?
Because they can mimic eachother, but one is very different
from the other.
(05:57):
Depressed, but, um, and you canbe depressed but not
necessarily grieving.
It depends, um, I, right offthe bat, I'm not a licensed
therapist, so anything that Ishare with you guys today or
your listeners, is forinformational, educational
(06:18):
purposes only.
Um, I don't mess around withthat kind of stuff.
I um, it's not my lane.
I always tell people, if there'sany question, and especially if
it has been going on a while,like really the deep dark, can't
get yourself out of bed, can'tget yourself out of this dark
hole.
Everything looks dim and blackand you're never going to get
(06:44):
out of this.
And especially if there's anysuicidal ideation which there
can be suicidal ideation withgrief.
But again, contact somebody,dial 988.
If you're thinking about that,very important not to second
guess.
So that would be my firstlayered answer.
The second would be reach out.
(07:10):
Reach out to somebody in yourcommunity that you feel safe
with, somebody that you'recomfortable with.
It might be your best friend,it might be your therapist.
I always recommend therapy.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Therapy is great yeah very, very, very true, and I
know there are many people thatduring the holidays they
struggle and they're not surewhich way to turn and how to
manage it.
So with that, I know that youhave some steps that you would
recommend for people to take.
But I also want to just quicklysee if Mimi has anything she
(07:45):
wants to say.
She's Mimi's okay, right.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I feel like I should bring my box of tissues.
I told you guys already I waslike I've got my tissues here,
it's okay.
Well, no, I mean just gosh theway you speak, michelle.
By the way, michelle has apodcast about grief, you guys,
which we'll link below.
We'll talk more about thatlater.
But I mean, this is what shedoes and she puts her all into
it.
It's just fascinating when shespeaks on it.
(08:10):
Yeah, you know, asentrepreneurs, especially if
you're a full time entrepreneur,it's really hard to like slow
down and things like like it'salmost like we just kind of want
to ignore how we're reallyfeeling, michelle.
So, yeah, you know whatJonathan was saying, we would,
we, we need your help, michelle,is what we're trying to say.
We need your help.
What?
What can people do to kind ofget through it?
(08:34):
Not resolve it necessarily, butjust get through the holidays
grieving as an entrepreneur.
Any tips?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, first I want to say k because of something that
you just said.
There isn't a way to get overit, you just get through it, and
that's very true.
In fact, that's why the titleof my podcast and my upcoming
memoir is Don't Tell Me to GetOver it.
A lot of people will hear thisphrase.
Well, it's been X amount oftime.
(09:03):
Or come on, the family's allhere, it's the holidays.
Get over it and put on a braveface.
Or put on your happy face.
Get over yourself.
Nobody wants to be aroundsomebody who's, you know, a
Debbie Downer.
Nobody wants to be around thesad person in the room.
Buck up.
It's a lot of a lot of people ingeneral, but especially
(09:25):
grievers, will hear this type ofinsensitive comments.
Sometimes these things are saidout of ignorance.
Sometimes they are said becausethe person talking to you is
toxic.
Sometimes it's said because theperson saying it is they
(09:46):
themselves, uncomfortable withgrief, with negative feelings in
general.
Maybe they don't know how toexpress or get in touch with
their own feelings.
So it's good to start therethat grief is not something that
you get over.
It's not something you need toget over.
Once grief enters your life, itis there for the rest of your
(10:11):
life.
But that's not as scary as itsounds and we can get into that.
So to your questionspecifically grieving as an
entrepreneur, that's a bigquestion.
(10:46):
Griefing as an entrepreneur day,or because grief has
overwhelmed you, everythingstops right Because you're the
president, the CEO, the CFO, theHR, the admin.
You're everything.
You're wearing so many hats.
So one of the first things thatI would recommend is to prepare
.
Just know the holidays aregoing to be tough regardless,
and that's not calling that intoexistence, it's just
recognizing reality.
(11:07):
So, before the holidays come,make preparations.
Maybe tell your customers hi,we're going to be closed from
the 15th to January 2nd to taketime off to spend with family.
We hope that you're spendingtime with family too.
You don't need to let them knowthat you're grieving, but you
could let them know that you'rejust going to be taking some
(11:27):
time off.
Maybe batch record, maybe haveposts scheduled so that there's
still a presence, because you doserve your customer, you do
serve your clientele.
They need you until they meetyou.
(11:53):
But you also deserve to taketime off.
You deserve to hold space foryourself and you can do that by
making just a little bit ofpreparation beforehand.
And hey, if the holidays rollaround and, for whatever reason,
it's not as bad as you thoughtit was going to be great, you
still deserve that time off andyou can still do it in such a
way that it doesn't harm yourbusiness.
Does that give you a clue intothat?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I mean you said it though, michelle like is why
being an entrepreneur, that'slike a whole other world, and so
I love that you touched upon it.
Especially for a solopreneur,there's nowhere to lean on.
You can't lean on your team topick up the heavy load, because
you're grieving.
It really is you if it is justyou.
(12:42):
So that was really good aboutpreparing ahead.
I know Jonathan is like theking of.
I mean, he pretty much has thewhole year planned out Well
normally I take November andDecember like my.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I close business on November 10th usually, which is
my birthday, and that's the endof my year.
But this year is a little bitdifferent.
And that's the end of my year,but this year is a little bit
different, so it's been a littlebit crazy for me and stressful
for things.
I'm going on, but the one thingthat Michelle pointed out and I
want to reiterate is becausethis came up in a room that I
(13:17):
was in yesterday your emotionsare never invalid.
Your emotions are neverexplicit.
Your emotions are emotions andthey're okay to have them.
It's not something that you needto hide and I think that's
important for people, especiallyentrepreneurs, because many
times we go through life masking.
You know we can't show ourclients that we're upset.
(13:38):
We can't show our clients thatyou know all this is happening.
We just have to do what we needto do and emotions are real and
emotions happen.
We need to accept that they do.
So I don't want to say I lovethat you said that, but I
appreciate that you said thatbecause I think it's something
that's important for people toknow and again, like just
(14:00):
preparing, is so huge being ableto be ready for that experience
.
Your experience of grievingthrough the holidays is
incredible, is really.
It's a key step, I'm sure, foreverybody in general, but when
you're grieving, I think it'sreally important.
I know that Mimi and I talked,as we were prepping, about open
(14:20):
communication and how it'simportant to communicate with
your family.
How would you communicate Ithink you kind of alluded to
this a little bit but how wouldyou communicate with your
clients, your customers, thepeople that might be relying on
you, especially if you havesomething they need during the
holidays, like I'm a bakery?
Oh that's a hard one.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I wish I was a bakery .
Wow, that's tough.
I wish I was a bakery, by theway, and here's the thing you
can't close down the bakery.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
One of my closest friends is a baker.
She does gluten-free,allergy-free baking, and
holidays are always the worsttime, and she recently lost her
father within the last couple ofyears and it's tough.
I'll tell you this.
Her attitude specifically is itstill has to get done.
(15:16):
It still has to get done.
It doesn't mean that sheignores her grief, it just means
that she sets it aside for alittle while and carries on.
Now she also has a team.
She's not a solopreneur in thesense that she does have, you
know, employees.
Her husband is very supportive,but at the end of the day, the
(15:41):
buck stops with her.
So part of what she does is shedoes pre-orders.
The holidays are coming.
If you want a cake, if you wanta Yule log, if you want
gingerbread cookies which arethe best gluten-free gingerbread
cookies I've ever had Shout outto Kikshaw's To order.
Here's the form and our lastdeadline is this date, and if
(16:05):
you call after, that date sucksto be you.
So that's a good way that youcan prep and train your
clientele.
You can just say I've gotpre-orders for something like
that, for something that'sgenerally like oh my gosh, it's
the holidays so and I need to beopen.
So that's one way that you cando it.
(16:29):
If you can't take off duringthat holiday rush, right before
whichever holiday you'recelebrating, then do that.
But then put on your calendar.
I'm going to take this muchtime off just for myself and I'm
(16:52):
going to go away, or I'm goingto do a staycation and book a
spa, Whatever it is.
Get the stuff done that youneed to get done.
I get that.
The main thing is don't shoveit down, because it becomes easy
to do that, to just shove itdown.
I'll deal with it another day.
I've got so much to do and thenyou never get a break and that
grief keeps getting shoved downand shoved down until one day it
(17:15):
can't anymore and the containerof you breaks and then it's a
big mess.
So put it on your calendar.
I love to do that anyway,because then when somebody says,
hey, are you available?
Blah, blah, blah, Nope, I'mbooked that day.
And on that day it might saynap from two to four, and that's
(17:39):
okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
We need rest.
Everything, everything on thisplanet has a rest period, has a
fallow period.
We not only deserve that, weneed that.
It's necessary.
It's not a luxury.
Vacation is not a luxury.
(18:00):
It should not be seen like thatat all.
We need to rest.
So that's what I would say.
If you're an entrepreneur, asolopreneur, and your biggest
days are right before theholidays, then okay, get it done
.
Do as much prep as possible, Dosome pre-orders if you can, but
(18:26):
then afterwards book that timeout for yourself and rest.
And do this even if you feelguilty or ashamed.
This is very tough for us,especially in the United States.
We're very.
I must produce.
I must be productive 24-7, 365days a year.
(18:46):
Or I'm not worth anything, orpeople won't love me, or I will
fail, or the business will gokaboom.
Or I will fail or the businesswill go kaboom.
Step away, get away from thatmentality.
It's going to be okay.
And then, when you come backfrom that rest, from sitting
with your grief, from honoringyour grief, you'll be ready and
(19:08):
stronger to get the next phasedone.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So much packed into that, so many things that we
need to learn and do and thingswe need to ignore from the
entrepreneurs out there who aretelling you you need to be
making money in your sleep andall that stuff.
That's all well and good, butwe also need to take care of
ourselves, which you definitelyalluded to, and I'm going to be
putting my two o'clock nap backon my calendar because I need,
(19:34):
need to, yeah, I need to.
It's going back on my calendar,so nobody can book me during
that time because guess what?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
for me at the end of the day, when you die, you don't
take any of your money with youand guess what?
Everybody's gonna die.
I'm sorry there's no.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Not me, michelle, not me I'm being frozen into the
wall.
I'll be back in 20 years, likehan solo so yeah, that doesn't
really happen it does.
It's a real thing.
I don't know what they call it,but austin powers did it
cryogenic, cryogenic it's a realthing.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I'm sure it's real I'm they're working on it, but
nobody is they.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Well, yeah, anyway, what were you gonna say, mimi?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
no, I was, you know.
I don't know why this word keptjumping out at me, but
boundaries, and stick with theboundaries.
There's a reason why it keepscoming up for you to.
You know, say no.
We have a whole episode on howto say no, because I know
sometimes it's hard, because youdon't want to let the other
person down, but you're like,well, I really do need to be off
(20:41):
this day, so just go with yourboundary.
And then the other thing wasthe nap too.
I took that with me as well,jonathan.
I think the world needs morenaps.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
The world needs more naps.
I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I do have a question for Michelle.
The world needs more naps, I100% agree.
I do have a question forMichelle.
Should we be this is just goingback to communicating with our
clientele, our followers, ouraudience, community Should we,
is there a time, a good time,for us to be that vulnerable and
tell them hey, we're grieving,Like Jonathan?
You could probably answer thistoo or should we just keep that
(21:15):
a secret, Like I don't know?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So, I know that Jonathan had said that we mask
too much and we need to bevulnerable and I know he does
say that to his signature groupthat we need to be more
vulnerable, because that's whatconnects us with people.
I would add a caveat to that.
I think it depends, number one,on it could depend on the
(21:43):
business that you have.
Number two, it depends on whatyour relationship is like with
your clientele.
How long have they known you?
If you're just getting startedout, let me word it this way
(22:06):
it's only a lie when it is atruth withheld from someone who
deserves to know it.
I always use this example.
So people who hid Jewish peopleduring World War II and the
Holocaust and they lied to theGestapo and said, no, I'm not
hiding any Jews here.
That wasn't a lie, because theGestapo did not have a right to
know that they were hiding Jewsthere because they would have
just killed them.
(22:28):
So does your clientele need toknow every nitty gritty of your
life?
Probably not.
At the same time, if you dohave a long and good
relationship with them, I thinkit's okay to be like.
We wanted to let everybody knowthat we just lost our father,
(22:50):
we just lost my grandmother andwe're taking some time off to
grieve, and the reason I thinkit's okay to do that number one
is we need to get over this, oh,get over this idea that grief
is something to be hidden,something shameful, something
that you should do on your owntime and behind closed door in
your house and that nobody needsto know.
(23:11):
I disagree.
I think grief is a part of lifeIn many different cultures.
It's a part of life.
We need to bring that back inthe West, I think Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I will say, while I have a slightly different view
on lying than you do now, I'mlike oh man, she wins on that
point, however, I feel like alie is just absence of truth in
my opinion, and when you aredoing that to your audience,
you're losing trust with youraudience.
(23:51):
Now, do you have to telleverything about your life?
No, but you should tell thethings that impact them and the
things that you're comfortabletalking about.
So if you're comfortable sayingand you know, if you're a
family business and you loseyour father, your audience sure
as shit.
Better be respectful of that,or they're not really your
(24:14):
people, sure as shit.
Better be respectful of that orthey're not really your people.
So, understanding like that andunderstanding what you're
comfortable sharing, I think isreally important.
But I do believe that there'sso much need for people to share
their emotions, share theirfeelings, share what's going on
Because, like Michelle said, somany people think they need to
just be stoic and I'm.
I'm better than all of this,I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine,
(24:37):
you're not fine.
We know, when you say you'refine, you're not, so let's
figure out ways to deal withthat.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Let's think of the um the Ross meme that's out there,
where he's like Michelle not alot of us are friends.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
friends, Wait, I think I cut you off too.
Can you say what Ross said?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Oh, it's a I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I don't know why my voice isall high and squeaky, but I'm
fine, but I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, you know it's crazy because I was thinking it
almost like, by admitting thatyou are grieving, it almost kind
of gives you permission, Idon't know.
It almost kind of allows you totake that break, because you
said it, you told everybody.
I don't know.
That's kind of where my mindwas with that.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Say exactly what you were just saying.
It gives you permission togrieve.
Not that you need permission,but in this world people feel
like we do.
And fine, then you're givingyourself that permission because
you deserve to grieve, youdeserve to be happy, you deserve
all of those emotions, and Ithink that's something that's
(25:45):
important for us to all share inour businesses, because we do
and we don't share that enough.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You don't just deserve to grieve.
You need to grieve because ifyou don't, it will come out.
It comes out physically, itwill make you ill.
So it is you.
You absolutely deserve it, butit's absolutely necessary to
grieve, however that looks foryou, but you still need to do
some form of grieving.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I was thinking like when you were saying that, like
if you don't take the time toprocess this and acknowledge it,
I mean it's going to mess withyour whole business anyways.
Right, jonathan, like it goesright back.
It just connects with yourmindset and your physical health
.
I mean you're going to be angry, irrational.
I mean, what are the symptomsof grief?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What aren't the symptoms of grief A million?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Give us your top five .
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, of course there's the five stages that
everybody's familiar with, andI'm not going to go into those
here.
You can listen to the episodeon my podcast about that.
Just know that they aren'tlinear.
So everything can be felt Anger, sadness, absolute elation, joy
(27:06):
, and I know that soundscounterintuitive, but it's true
Relief, relief.
The thing is you need to honorthose feelings, and I love what
you said earlier, jonathan, thatyour emotions are your emotions
.
They're neutral, they just are.
They're important, they're alsotemporary.
Whatever you're feeling rightnow, you will not be feeling
(27:26):
that five minutes from now,maybe a day from now, whatever
it is in terms of your grief.
So hold space for that.
And absolutely, mimi, you knowwhat I was just thinking too,
and I'm glad anger was the firstone you said, because, think
about it, if you don't holdspace for that grief but it's
still there, it doesn't go away,it doesn't say, oh, I guess
(27:50):
Jonathan's not grieving today,so we'll just, we'll just leave,
then he won't have any grief.
No, it's still there, but it'llcome out in different ways.
Maybe you'll be more irritable,maybe you'll forget things
Forgetfulness is one of thesymptoms, and you can't afford
(28:11):
that in a solopreneurship.
So that's why it's good to holdspace for that grief.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I've heard it here, folks In order to grow and save
your business, holding space isnecessary.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
The prime directive is to survive.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I was going to ask too, michelle.
I mean, you have a ton ofresources and we'll put
everything that you know youprovide in the in the
description below so you guyscan link away.
But you mentioned too you knowthere are there's support groups
, either virtual or in person.
I mean this is also somethingthat you could go to as well if
(28:51):
you need more help.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Always recommend, doesn't she have one coming up?
Speaker 1 (28:57):
herself.
Yes, I do In January of 25.
Yes, we're going to be openingback up.
I did this last year as a beta,as a test, but we are going to
be opening up another griefjournal group.
It was very successful.
People got a lot out of it, sowe're going to be doing that
again in January.
(29:18):
No links yet for that, but youcan always go and sign up for my
newsletter, because mynewsletter subscribers always
hear about things first and andthey'll be getting.
I'll be putting all the detailsin there once they are
finalized.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
However.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I also want to say it's always good to start local.
You can always call your localhospice center, even if you
don't have a relative or haveany connection to cancer.
They have really greatresources of grief groups in
your area, so I would startthere.
I also highly recommend and I'ma little biased because I
recently got my certification asa David Kessler grief educator
(29:57):
I highly recommend his tenderhearts groups.
There is a support group forevery type of grief.
You could think of Child lossgrief, parental grief loss,
disenfranchised grief, like theloss of a pet grief.
There's there is a group foryou.
(30:19):
So I highly recommend thetender hearts groups that David
Kessler does.
He's an amazing.
He's an amazing.
He's.
He's very, he's very well knownin the grief space, but he's
also just one of the kindest menI've ever met.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
So Can I start going to the loss of a pet grief group
before I lose my pet, toprepare myself for the loss of
the pet?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
Okay, good, that's absolutely agood idea, because you're
prepared.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Because I'm going to need that.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I'm sending big hugs.
It's so hard losing a pet.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I was thinking like, yeah, yeah, Losing a pet also
qualifies.
I mean, there's so much in thegrief space.
That was a good question,Jonathan.
It's like do we have to waitfor something to happen in order
to kind of prepare?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, no, no, because , remember, I said it's good to
prepare.
I wanted to slip this in aswell.
It's something that I tell mycommunity over and over and over
, because it's so importantBuild the community now.
There's some quote that saysthe best time to plant a tree is
(31:29):
40 years ago.
Then the second best time istoday.
You build the thing before youneed it, before the rains come.
You need to put the roof on thehouse.
You can't just say, well, Idon't need a roof really, until
there's some weather.
No, you put the roof on thehouse.
So it's the same thing, and Iunderstand this.
(31:51):
It can be a touchy subject.
I hear from so many people it'sdifficult to make friends these
days, especially in the over 40crowd, because I guess around
that time, you know, the kidsstart being out of the house,
maybe empty nesters.
(32:12):
You're not doing as much withthe quote, unquote mom groups.
That's what I've heard fromwomen specifically.
But it's almost like we shouldhave a class on how to make
friends after 40 or something.
Well, I just gave myself thatidea.
You can cut that out.
So, yeah, but it needs to bedone.
(32:34):
Grief was not meant to be donealone.
We are meant to grieve togetherto be a support.
So, if nothing else, if yourlisteners walk away with no
other piece of advice, build astrong, supportive community now
(32:58):
, because I guarantee you'regoing to need them in the future
.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Build a community.
Now.
I mean, mimi, and I even saythat with business.
Build your community.
It's what you want to do.
We were meant to be in communewith others.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, the way.
After this, after you listen tothis episode, take a couple of
deep belly breaths and giveyourself space to take this in,
to calm your nervous system,because this is a heavy topic,
but it's a heavy topic that isabsolutely needed today.
(33:35):
So I just wanted to tell yourlisteners that, as well, take a
couple of deep breaths and takecare of yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Michelle, first of all, I love that.
It actually made me think ofsomething real quick before we
wrap up.
You've talked about this before, but if you could just let us
know, it could be a super quickanswer, although I know it's not
.
But if you want to make itshort just for the sake of time,
jonathan, right, no, but ifyou're not the one who's
grieving as an entrepreneur, butyou have somebody in your
(34:05):
entrepreneurial circle that isgrieving through the holidays,
is there anything you can do tosupport them?
Even if maybe they're nottalking about it?
Should you get in there and youknow and you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
One of the other things I tell my community is
reach in.
Don't wait for somebody who'sgrieving to reach out,
especially if it's very freshgrief and you know about it.
They are doing everything theycan to just put one foot in
front of the other.
Dollars to dimes.
They're probably not eveneating correctly.
So reach in and don't ask.
(34:38):
This is one of the big things.
Don't ask somebody what can Ido for you?
Just call me.
No, they're not going to callyou.
Say, hey, I baked an extra panof lasagna.
I would love to bring it overat six o'clock tomorrow.
Are you going to be home and Ican just leave it on your porch,
(34:59):
whatever, you don't even haveto talk to me, offering
practical help and specific help.
That is good.
Now also remember everybody'sgrief journey is different.
So what is your relationshipwith the person who's grieving?
Are you really really close?
Are they just in yourentrepreneur group, like your
(35:21):
social group, where you talkabout different ideas or
brainstorm?
Think first about what yourrelationship is with that person
and what they might accept, butstill reach in and offer
practical, specific help andthat is across the board.
With anybody who's grieving.
(35:43):
Does that help?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, it really does.
Yes, thank you, okay, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
All right.
So first off, I want to thankeverybody for listening to this
episode and I wish you a veryhappy holiday season.
And if anybody needs help,please reach out to those that
can support them.
And you know, if you needMichelle, we'll happily offer
(36:11):
Michelle's phone number out toyou so we can get her phone
calls.
Her 1-800 number 1-800-MICHELLEno, don't dial that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I don't know what that is.
I know.
Don't dial it.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
It might be something else we don't know, and
Michelle's a voice actress, soit could be anything that she
does.
This is true.
And on that note, ladies andgentlemen, Mimi, do you have a
question for this episode?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I do not, you do not Except the question.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well, you can ask the question, which is, of course,
and well, I guess it's only fair.
We have asked this to all ofour guests.
Yes, the answer is teamJonathan.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Well, hold on a second Hold on, put the brakes
on Team Jonathan.
Oh, also, I want you to askMichelle if she knows what that
word is that we were talkingabout earlier.
But anyways, you know the word,the word that you loved during
high school.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Afformentioned.
You know the word, the wordthat you loved during high
school Aforementioned.
Oh wait, Mimi has not heardthis word before.
No, I'm actually not surprised.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
We'll put it below for you guys out there
Aforementioned.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I was like at first.
I'm like what, what are yousaying?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Tell me you fell asleep during English class
without telling me you fellasleep during English class.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
English was my favorite subject.
You stop it, okay, all right.
Well, this just proves what theanswer is then, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I know it's always team Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Michelle, I want you to just hold space for this.
Okay, think about it.
Are you team Mimi, or?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
team Jonathan Him.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I just called him him .
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Well, you know, the definition of holding space is
to be with someone on theirjourney, without judgment.
So I am team Mimi and Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Oh, I can't handle this anymore.
This is why.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I'm the grief curator .
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Thank, you everyone.
This is why, mimi, why, mimi,we're not asking that question
anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Is it because I didn't know the definition of
the word affirmation?
What was the word?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I said I was team Mimi and team Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
One day it will be me , only me.
Oh, my All right.
Well, thank you again, michelle.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Be careful what you wish for Bye everyone Careful
what you put out into the world.
Happy holidays, bye everyone.
Bye everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Bye Michelle, bye Jonathan Howard.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Bye, mimi Langley.
Start there, that grief is not something that you
get over.
It's not something you need toget over.
Once grief enters your life, itis there for the rest of your
life.
But that's not as scary as itsounds.
It's Coffee Social, the podcast, all about social media and
(00:24):
business.
And now here are your hosts,jonathan Howard and Mimi Langley
.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hey everyone, hi Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Howard.
Hello, mimi Langley, I've gotmy cheers cup ready.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, hold on Before we cheers.
Do you feel like that was toocheery?
I mean, we're talking aboutgrief today.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
We are talking about grief today.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Should I be lower?
What do you guys?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
think I'm going to lower my voice.
What's that?
I'm going to lower my voice andI'm going to talk like this the
entire episode.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
No, we have to keep it real, jonathan, but yes,
cheers everyone.
This is the real me Cheers,cheers.
This is a real conversationabout grief.
This is a real conversationabout grief.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It is a real conversation about grief.
We're talking about grief today, with none other than Santa.
Santa.
No, we're not talking withSanta.
Ho, ho ho.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I was showing him my Santa mug.
We're talking with the MichelleGill, the grief curator.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Who is the?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
She's the grief curator.
She is the woman behind theopening song.
The words to Coffee Social.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, and you know what?
She doesn't sound anything likethe words in our opening, but
it's her.
She holds space for people.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So we thought Michelle would be perfect for an
episode like this, where we'regoing to be talking about
basically surviving the holidaysand really a lot of what we're
probably going to talk abouttoday you can bring with you
throughout the whole year,because grief is not just during
the holidays, and especially asan entrepreneur.
(02:00):
Jonathan, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I mean, I feel like we're always running and trying
to figure out what's going onnext and not paying attention to
what's actually happening inthe moment, and sometimes that
leads to us ignoring things likegrieving the people that we
love that are no longer with us,and stuff like that I think
it's time.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I think we need to get into this, so feel free,
grab a bottle of tissues.
She's coming in, so we're soexcited to have you here.
Girl, did you bring your coffee?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I brought my coffee.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay.
Well, this is the time tocheers, Cheers everyone.
Oh, I like the red, Michelle.
I don't know if you recognizethe no, who could?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
that be Very nice Thank you Hobby Lobby.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Shout out to Hobby Lobby.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Tell, tell everybody where we met jonathan we met um
in washington dc no I mean,where do we meet before in
person?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
what where do we meet , like before, in person, like
clubhouse oh, I'm like what.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Before we met in person, we were clubhouse
friends, yes, virtual friends.
So, yes, we got to meet inperson in DC in August, so she
knew we were real and yeah, soshould we jump into what we were
going to talk about today?
Now that we're done laughingand getting our laughs?
Out, I know we can be allserious for a second.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I know.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Or an hour.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
You're right, like now.
It's time we were kind ofexplaining, because this is just
our personality and usuallywhen you're talking about grief
it's not light like what we'remaking of it, michelle, that's
why we have you here, becauseyou are the grief curator.
You hold space for this kind ofthing that everybody goes
through Real quick.
Just to set this up before wedive into the first question
(03:52):
when someone hears the wordgrief, they just automatically
associate it with losing someone, and so they're like I've never
grieved anything, I've neverlost someone in my life.
Yet Can you just talk aboutgrief, because you talk about it
from all angles my life yet Canyou just talk about grief
Because you talk about it fromall angles.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yes, typically, when people hear the word grief, they
think of death in connectionwith that.
So no, my parents haven't died.
Nobody's died in my family.
Nobody I know has died.
So I don't grieve, or I'venever grieved.
(04:30):
But grief is about loss andwe've all lost something or
someone that might still bealive.
I like to say that grief doesinvolve death, but it's not
always a physical death.
But something has died, a dreamhas died, your hopes have died.
Maybe you have lost a friend.
It just didn't.
You lost touch.
It's not a physical death, butit's the death of a friendship.
(04:50):
So grief covers a lot of areasof life and oftentimes people
just don't recognize that that'swhat it is.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, well, that actually is a perfect transition
into the question you wanted toask, jonathan, but if you want
to set it is Okay.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, that actually is a perfect transition into the
question you wanted to ask,jonathan, but if you want to set
it up, yeah, I mean, really,the question that I wanted to
ask was more about.
So many people are strugglingthrough different things,
especially during the holidays,which is kind of what we're
talking about now.
So how do they know, even ifit's something, if they're
dealing with grief, if they'reunsure with all the heaviness
that we're dealing with asentrepreneurs, as people in, you
(05:28):
know, living right now in thisday and age, how do we know that
we're dealing with grief inthis situation?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
That is such a great question because it can be
difficult to tell.
Grief has so many layers.
One of the questions that Ihear quite often is is it grief
or depression?
Because they can mimic eachother, but one is very different
from the other.
(05:57):
Depressed, but, um, and you canbe depressed but not
necessarily grieving.
It depends, um, I, right offthe bat, I'm not a licensed
therapist, so anything that Ishare with you guys today or
your listeners, is forinformational, educational
(06:18):
purposes only.
Um, I don't mess around withthat kind of stuff.
I um, it's not my lane.
I always tell people, if there'sany question, and especially if
it has been going on a while,like really the deep dark, can't
get yourself out of bed, can'tget yourself out of this dark
hole.
Everything looks dim and blackand you're never going to get
(06:44):
out of this.
And especially if there's anysuicidal ideation which there
can be suicidal ideation withgrief.
But again, contact somebody,dial 988.
If you're thinking about that,very important not to second
guess.
So that would be my firstlayered answer.
The second would be reach out.
(07:10):
Reach out to somebody in yourcommunity that you feel safe
with, somebody that you'recomfortable with.
It might be your best friend,it might be your therapist.
I always recommend therapy.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Therapy is great yeah very, very, very true, and I
know there are many people thatduring the holidays they
struggle and they're not surewhich way to turn and how to
manage it.
So with that, I know that youhave some steps that you would
recommend for people to take.
But I also want to just quicklysee if Mimi has anything she
(07:45):
wants to say.
She's Mimi's okay, right.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I feel like I should bring my box of tissues.
I told you guys already I waslike I've got my tissues here,
it's okay.
Well, no, I mean just gosh theway you speak, michelle.
By the way, michelle has apodcast about grief, you guys,
which we'll link below.
We'll talk more about thatlater.
But I mean, this is what shedoes and she puts her all into
it.
It's just fascinating when shespeaks on it.
(08:10):
Yeah, you know, asentrepreneurs, especially if
you're a full time entrepreneur,it's really hard to like slow
down and things like like it'salmost like we just kind of want
to ignore how we're reallyfeeling, michelle.
So, yeah, you know whatJonathan was saying, we would,
we, we need your help, michelle,is what we're trying to say.
We need your help.
What?
What can people do to kind ofget through it?
(08:34):
Not resolve it necessarily, butjust get through the holidays
grieving as an entrepreneur.
Any tips?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Well, first I want to say k because of something that
you just said.
There isn't a way to get overit, you just get through it, and
that's very true.
In fact, that's why the titleof my podcast and my upcoming
memoir is Don't Tell Me to GetOver it.
A lot of people will hear thisphrase.
Well, it's been X amount oftime.
(09:03):
Or come on, the family's allhere, it's the holidays.
Get over it and put on a braveface.
Or put on your happy face.
Get over yourself.
Nobody wants to be aroundsomebody who's, you know, a
Debbie Downer.
Nobody wants to be around thesad person in the room.
Buck up.
It's a lot of a lot of people ingeneral, but especially
(09:25):
grievers, will hear this type ofinsensitive comments.
Sometimes these things are saidout of ignorance.
Sometimes they are said becausethe person talking to you is
toxic.
Sometimes it's said because theperson saying it is they
(09:46):
themselves, uncomfortable withgrief, with negative feelings in
general.
Maybe they don't know how toexpress or get in touch with
their own feelings.
So it's good to start therethat grief is not something that
you get over.
It's not something you need toget over.
Once grief enters your life, itis there for the rest of your
(10:11):
life.
But that's not as scary as itsounds and we can get into that.
So to your questionspecifically grieving as an
entrepreneur, that's a bigquestion.
(10:46):
Griefing as an entrepreneur day,or because grief has
overwhelmed you, everythingstops right Because you're the
president, the CEO, the CFO, theHR, the admin.
You're everything.
You're wearing so many hats.
So one of the first things thatI would recommend is to prepare
.
Just know the holidays aregoing to be tough regardless,
and that's not calling that intoexistence, it's just
recognizing reality.
(11:07):
So, before the holidays come,make preparations.
Maybe tell your customers hi,we're going to be closed from
the 15th to January 2nd to taketime off to spend with family.
We hope that you're spendingtime with family too.
You don't need to let them knowthat you're grieving, but you
could let them know that you'rejust going to be taking some
(11:27):
time off.
Maybe batch record, maybe haveposts scheduled so that there's
still a presence, because you doserve your customer, you do
serve your clientele.
They need you until they meetyou.
(11:53):
But you also deserve to taketime off.
You deserve to hold space foryourself and you can do that by
making just a little bit ofpreparation beforehand.
And hey, if the holidays rollaround and, for whatever reason,
it's not as bad as you thoughtit was going to be great, you
still deserve that time off andyou can still do it in such a
way that it doesn't harm yourbusiness.
Does that give you a clue intothat?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I mean you said it though, michelle like is why
being an entrepreneur, that'slike a whole other world, and so
I love that you touched upon it.
Especially for a solopreneur,there's nowhere to lean on.
You can't lean on your team topick up the heavy load, because
you're grieving.
It really is you if it is justyou.
(12:42):
So that was really good aboutpreparing ahead.
I know Jonathan is like theking of.
I mean, he pretty much has thewhole year planned out Well
normally I take November andDecember like my.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I close business on November 10th usually, which is
my birthday, and that's the endof my year.
But this year is a little bitdifferent.
And that's the end of my year,but this year is a little bit
different, so it's been a littlebit crazy for me and stressful
for things.
I'm going on, but the one thingthat Michelle pointed out and I
want to reiterate is becausethis came up in a room that I
(13:17):
was in yesterday your emotionsare never invalid.
Your emotions are neverexplicit.
Your emotions are emotions andthey're okay to have them.
It's not something that you needto hide and I think that's
important for people, especiallyentrepreneurs, because many
times we go through life masking.
You know we can't show ourclients that we're upset.
(13:38):
We can't show our clients thatyou know all this is happening.
We just have to do what we needto do and emotions are real and
emotions happen.
We need to accept that they do.
So I don't want to say I lovethat you said that, but I
appreciate that you said thatbecause I think it's something
that's important for people toknow and again, like just
(14:00):
preparing, is so huge being ableto be ready for that experience
.
Your experience of grievingthrough the holidays is
incredible, is really.
It's a key step, I'm sure, foreverybody in general, but when
you're grieving, I think it'sreally important.
I know that Mimi and I talked,as we were prepping, about open
(14:20):
communication and how it'simportant to communicate with
your family.
How would you communicate Ithink you kind of alluded to
this a little bit but how wouldyou communicate with your
clients, your customers, thepeople that might be relying on
you, especially if you havesomething they need during the
holidays, like I'm a bakery?
Oh that's a hard one.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I wish I was a bakery .
Wow, that's tough.
I wish I was a bakery, by theway, and here's the thing you
can't close down the bakery.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
One of my closest friends is a baker.
She does gluten-free,allergy-free baking, and
holidays are always the worsttime, and she recently lost her
father within the last couple ofyears and it's tough.
I'll tell you this.
Her attitude specifically is itstill has to get done.
(15:16):
It still has to get done.
It doesn't mean that sheignores her grief, it just means
that she sets it aside for alittle while and carries on.
Now she also has a team.
She's not a solopreneur in thesense that she does have, you
know, employees.
Her husband is very supportive,but at the end of the day, the
(15:41):
buck stops with her.
So part of what she does is shedoes pre-orders.
The holidays are coming.
If you want a cake, if you wanta Yule log, if you want
gingerbread cookies which arethe best gluten-free gingerbread
cookies I've ever had Shout outto Kikshaw's To order.
Here's the form and our lastdeadline is this date, and if
(16:05):
you call after, that date sucksto be you.
So that's a good way that youcan prep and train your
clientele.
You can just say I've gotpre-orders for something like
that, for something that'sgenerally like oh my gosh, it's
the holidays so and I need to beopen.
So that's one way that you cando it.
(16:29):
If you can't take off duringthat holiday rush, right before
whichever holiday you'recelebrating, then do that.
But then put on your calendar.
I'm going to take this muchtime off just for myself and I'm
(16:52):
going to go away, or I'm goingto do a staycation and book a
spa, Whatever it is.
Get the stuff done that youneed to get done.
I get that.
The main thing is don't shoveit down, because it becomes easy
to do that, to just shove itdown.
I'll deal with it another day.
I've got so much to do and thenyou never get a break and that
grief keeps getting shoved downand shoved down until one day it
(17:15):
can't anymore and the containerof you breaks and then it's a
big mess.
So put it on your calendar.
I love to do that anyway,because then when somebody says,
hey, are you available?
Blah, blah, blah, Nope, I'mbooked that day.
And on that day it might saynap from two to four, and that's
(17:39):
okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
We need rest.
Everything, everything on thisplanet has a rest period, has a
fallow period.
We not only deserve that, weneed that.
It's necessary.
It's not a luxury.
Vacation is not a luxury.
(18:00):
It should not be seen like thatat all.
We need to rest.
So that's what I would say.
If you're an entrepreneur, asolopreneur, and your biggest
days are right before theholidays, then okay, get it done
.
Do as much prep as possible, Dosome pre-orders if you can, but
(18:26):
then afterwards book that timeout for yourself and rest.
And do this even if you feelguilty or ashamed.
This is very tough for us,especially in the United States.
We're very.
I must produce.
I must be productive 24-7, 365days a year.
(18:46):
Or I'm not worth anything, orpeople won't love me, or I will
fail, or the business will gokaboom.
Or I will fail or the businesswill go kaboom.
Step away, get away from thatmentality.
It's going to be okay.
And then, when you come backfrom that rest, from sitting
with your grief, from honoringyour grief, you'll be ready and
(19:08):
stronger to get the next phasedone.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So much packed into that, so many things that we
need to learn and do and thingswe need to ignore from the
entrepreneurs out there who aretelling you you need to be
making money in your sleep andall that stuff.
That's all well and good, butwe also need to take care of
ourselves, which you definitelyalluded to, and I'm going to be
putting my two o'clock nap backon my calendar because I need,
(19:34):
need to, yeah, I need to.
It's going back on my calendar,so nobody can book me during
that time because guess what?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
for me at the end of the day, when you die, you don't
take any of your money with youand guess what?
Everybody's gonna die.
I'm sorry there's no.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Not me, michelle, not me I'm being frozen into the
wall.
I'll be back in 20 years, likehan solo so yeah, that doesn't
really happen it does.
It's a real thing.
I don't know what they call it,but austin powers did it
cryogenic, cryogenic it's a realthing.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I'm sure it's real I'm they're working on it, but
nobody is they.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Well, yeah, anyway, what were you gonna say, mimi?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
no, I was, you know.
I don't know why this word keptjumping out at me, but
boundaries, and stick with theboundaries.
There's a reason why it keepscoming up for you to.
You know, say no.
We have a whole episode on howto say no, because I know
sometimes it's hard, because youdon't want to let the other
person down, but you're like,well, I really do need to be off
(20:41):
this day, so just go with yourboundary.
And then the other thing wasthe nap too.
I took that with me as well,jonathan.
I think the world needs morenaps.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
The world needs more naps.
I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I do have a question for Michelle.
The world needs more naps, I100% agree.
I do have a question forMichelle.
Should we be this is just goingback to communicating with our
clientele, our followers, ouraudience, community Should we,
is there a time, a good time,for us to be that vulnerable and
tell them hey, we're grieving,Like Jonathan?
You could probably answer thistoo or should we just keep that
(21:15):
a secret, Like I don't know?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So, I know that Jonathan had said that we mask
too much and we need to bevulnerable and I know he does
say that to his signature groupthat we need to be more
vulnerable, because that's whatconnects us with people.
I would add a caveat to that.
I think it depends, number one,on it could depend on the
(21:43):
business that you have.
Number two, it depends on whatyour relationship is like with
your clientele.
How long have they known you?
If you're just getting startedout, let me word it this way
(22:06):
it's only a lie when it is atruth withheld from someone who
deserves to know it.
I always use this example.
So people who hid Jewish peopleduring World War II and the
Holocaust and they lied to theGestapo and said, no, I'm not
hiding any Jews here.
That wasn't a lie, because theGestapo did not have a right to
know that they were hiding Jewsthere because they would have
just killed them.
(22:28):
So does your clientele need toknow every nitty gritty of your
life?
Probably not.
At the same time, if you dohave a long and good
relationship with them, I thinkit's okay to be like.
We wanted to let everybody knowthat we just lost our father,
(22:50):
we just lost my grandmother andwe're taking some time off to
grieve, and the reason I thinkit's okay to do that number one
is we need to get over this, oh,get over this idea that grief
is something to be hidden,something shameful, something
that you should do on your owntime and behind closed door in
your house and that nobody needsto know.
(23:11):
I disagree.
I think grief is a part of lifeIn many different cultures.
It's a part of life.
We need to bring that back inthe West, I think Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I will say, while I have a slightly different view
on lying than you do now, I'mlike oh man, she wins on that
point, however, I feel like alie is just absence of truth in
my opinion, and when you aredoing that to your audience,
you're losing trust with youraudience.
(23:51):
Now, do you have to telleverything about your life?
No, but you should tell thethings that impact them and the
things that you're comfortabletalking about.
So if you're comfortable sayingand you know, if you're a
family business and you loseyour father, your audience sure
as shit.
Better be respectful of that,or they're not really your
(24:14):
people, sure as shit.
Better be respectful of that orthey're not really your people.
So, understanding like that andunderstanding what you're
comfortable sharing, I think isreally important.
But I do believe that there'sso much need for people to share
their emotions, share theirfeelings, share what's going on
Because, like Michelle said, somany people think they need to
just be stoic and I'm.
I'm better than all of this,I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine,
(24:37):
you're not fine.
We know, when you say you'refine, you're not, so let's
figure out ways to deal withthat.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Let's think of the um the Ross meme that's out there,
where he's like Michelle not alot of us are friends.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
friends, Wait, I think I cut you off too.
Can you say what Ross said?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Oh, it's a I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I don't know why my voice isall high and squeaky, but I'm
fine, but I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, you know it's crazy because I was thinking it
almost like, by admitting thatyou are grieving, it almost kind
of gives you permission, Idon't know.
It almost kind of allows you totake that break, because you
said it, you told everybody.
I don't know.
That's kind of where my mindwas with that.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Say exactly what you were just saying.
It gives you permission togrieve.
Not that you need permission,but in this world people feel
like we do.
And fine, then you're givingyourself that permission because
you deserve to grieve, youdeserve to be happy, you deserve
all of those emotions, and Ithink that's something that's
(25:45):
important for us to all share inour businesses, because we do
and we don't share that enough.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You don't just deserve to grieve.
You need to grieve because ifyou don't, it will come out.
It comes out physically, itwill make you ill.
So it is you.
You absolutely deserve it, butit's absolutely necessary to
grieve, however that looks foryou, but you still need to do
some form of grieving.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I was thinking like when you were saying that, like
if you don't take the time toprocess this and acknowledge it,
I mean it's going to mess withyour whole business anyways.
Right, jonathan, like it goesright back.
It just connects with yourmindset and your physical health
.
I mean you're going to be angry, irrational.
I mean, what are the symptomsof grief?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
What aren't the symptoms of grief A million?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Give us your top five .
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Well, of course there's the five stages that
everybody's familiar with, andI'm not going to go into those
here.
You can listen to the episodeon my podcast about that.
Just know that they aren'tlinear.
So everything can be felt Anger, sadness, absolute elation, joy
(27:06):
, and I know that soundscounterintuitive, but it's true
Relief, relief.
The thing is you need to honorthose feelings, and I love what
you said earlier, jonathan, thatyour emotions are your emotions
.
They're neutral, they just are.
They're important, they're alsotemporary.
Whatever you're feeling rightnow, you will not be feeling
(27:26):
that five minutes from now,maybe a day from now, whatever
it is in terms of your grief.
So hold space for that.
And absolutely, mimi, you knowwhat I was just thinking too,
and I'm glad anger was the firstone you said, because, think
about it, if you don't holdspace for that grief but it's
still there, it doesn't go away,it doesn't say, oh, I guess
(27:50):
Jonathan's not grieving today,so we'll just, we'll just leave,
then he won't have any grief.
No, it's still there, but it'llcome out in different ways.
Maybe you'll be more irritable,maybe you'll forget things
Forgetfulness is one of thesymptoms, and you can't afford
(28:11):
that in a solopreneurship.
So that's why it's good to holdspace for that grief.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I've heard it here, folks In order to grow and save
your business, holding space isnecessary.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
The prime directive is to survive.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I was going to ask too, michelle.
I mean, you have a ton ofresources and we'll put
everything that you know youprovide in the in the
description below so you guyscan link away.
But you mentioned too you knowthere are there's support groups
, either virtual or in person.
I mean this is also somethingthat you could go to as well if
(28:51):
you need more help.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Always recommend, doesn't she have one coming up?
Speaker 1 (28:57):
herself.
Yes, I do In January of 25.
Yes, we're going to be openingback up.
I did this last year as a beta,as a test, but we are going to
be opening up another griefjournal group.
It was very successful.
People got a lot out of it, sowe're going to be doing that
again in January.
(29:18):
No links yet for that, but youcan always go and sign up for my
newsletter, because mynewsletter subscribers always
hear about things first and andthey'll be getting.
I'll be putting all the detailsin there once they are
finalized.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
However.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I also want to say it's always good to start local.
You can always call your localhospice center, even if you
don't have a relative or haveany connection to cancer.
They have really greatresources of grief groups in
your area, so I would startthere.
I also highly recommend and I'ma little biased because I
recently got my certification asa David Kessler grief educator
(29:57):
I highly recommend his tenderhearts groups.
There is a support group forevery type of grief.
You could think of Child lossgrief, parental grief loss,
disenfranchised grief, like theloss of a pet grief.
There's there is a group foryou.
(30:19):
So I highly recommend thetender hearts groups that David
Kessler does.
He's an amazing.
He's an amazing.
He's.
He's very, he's very well knownin the grief space, but he's
also just one of the kindest menI've ever met.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
So Can I start going to the loss of a pet grief group
before I lose my pet, toprepare myself for the loss of
the pet?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
Okay, good, that's absolutely agood idea, because you're
prepared.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Because I'm going to need that.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I'm sending big hugs.
It's so hard losing a pet.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I was thinking like, yeah, yeah, Losing a pet also
qualifies.
I mean, there's so much in thegrief space.
That was a good question,Jonathan.
It's like do we have to waitfor something to happen in order
to kind of prepare?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, no, no, because , remember, I said it's good to
prepare.
I wanted to slip this in aswell.
It's something that I tell mycommunity over and over and over
, because it's so importantBuild the community now.
There's some quote that saysthe best time to plant a tree is
(31:29):
40 years ago.
Then the second best time istoday.
You build the thing before youneed it, before the rains come.
You need to put the roof on thehouse.
You can't just say, well, Idon't need a roof really, until
there's some weather.
No, you put the roof on thehouse.
So it's the same thing, and Iunderstand this.
(31:51):
It can be a touchy subject.
I hear from so many people it'sdifficult to make friends these
days, especially in the over 40crowd, because I guess around
that time, you know, the kidsstart being out of the house,
maybe empty nesters.
(32:12):
You're not doing as much withthe quote, unquote mom groups.
That's what I've heard fromwomen specifically.
But it's almost like we shouldhave a class on how to make
friends after 40 or something.
Well, I just gave myself thatidea.
You can cut that out.
So, yeah, but it needs to bedone.
(32:34):
Grief was not meant to be donealone.
We are meant to grieve togetherto be a support.
So, if nothing else, if yourlisteners walk away with no
other piece of advice, build astrong, supportive community now
(32:58):
, because I guarantee you'regoing to need them in the future
.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Build a community.
Now.
I mean, mimi, and I even saythat with business.
Build your community.
It's what you want to do.
We were meant to be in communewith others.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, the way.
After this, after you listen tothis episode, take a couple of
deep belly breaths and giveyourself space to take this in,
to calm your nervous system,because this is a heavy topic,
but it's a heavy topic that isabsolutely needed today.
(33:35):
So I just wanted to tell yourlisteners that, as well, take a
couple of deep breaths and takecare of yourself.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Michelle, first of all, I love that.
It actually made me think ofsomething real quick before we
wrap up.
You've talked about this before, but if you could just let us
know, it could be a super quickanswer, although I know it's not
.
But if you want to make itshort just for the sake of time,
jonathan, right, no, but ifyou're not the one who's
grieving as an entrepreneur, butyou have somebody in your
(34:05):
entrepreneurial circle that isgrieving through the holidays,
is there anything you can do tosupport them?
Even if maybe they're nottalking about it?
Should you get in there and youknow and you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
One of the other things I tell my community is
reach in.
Don't wait for somebody who'sgrieving to reach out,
especially if it's very freshgrief and you know about it.
They are doing everything theycan to just put one foot in
front of the other.
Dollars to dimes.
They're probably not eveneating correctly.
So reach in and don't ask.
(34:38):
This is one of the big things.
Don't ask somebody what can Ido for you?
Just call me.
No, they're not going to callyou.
Say, hey, I baked an extra panof lasagna.
I would love to bring it overat six o'clock tomorrow.
Are you going to be home and Ican just leave it on your porch,
(34:59):
whatever, you don't even haveto talk to me, offering
practical help and specific help.
That is good.
Now also remember everybody'sgrief journey is different.
So what is your relationshipwith the person who's grieving?
Are you really really close?
Are they just in yourentrepreneur group, like your
(35:21):
social group, where you talkabout different ideas or
brainstorm?
Think first about what yourrelationship is with that person
and what they might accept, butstill reach in and offer
practical, specific help andthat is across the board.
With anybody who's grieving.
(35:43):
Does that help?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
No, it really does.
Yes, thank you, okay, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
All right.
So first off, I want to thankeverybody for listening to this
episode and I wish you a veryhappy holiday season.
And if anybody needs help,please reach out to those that
can support them.
And you know, if you needMichelle, we'll happily offer
(36:11):
Michelle's phone number out toyou so we can get her phone
calls.
Her 1-800 number 1-800-MICHELLEno, don't dial that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I don't know what that is.
I know.
Don't dial it.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
It might be something else we don't know, and
Michelle's a voice actress, soit could be anything that she
does.
This is true.
And on that note, ladies andgentlemen, Mimi, do you have a
question for this episode?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I do not, you do not Except the question.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well, you can ask the question, which is, of course,
and well, I guess it's only fair.
We have asked this to all ofour guests.
Yes, the answer is teamJonathan.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Well, hold on a second Hold on, put the brakes
on Team Jonathan.
Oh, also, I want you to askMichelle if she knows what that
word is that we were talkingabout earlier.
But anyways, you know the word,the word that you loved during
high school.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Afformentioned.
You know the word, the wordthat you loved during high
school Aforementioned.
Oh wait, Mimi has not heardthis word before.
No, I'm actually not surprised.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
We'll put it below for you guys out there
Aforementioned.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I was like at first.
I'm like what, what are yousaying?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Tell me you fell asleep during English class
without telling me you fellasleep during English class.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
English was my favorite subject.
You stop it, okay, all right.
Well, this just proves what theanswer is then, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I know it's always team Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Michelle, I want you to just hold space for this.
Okay, think about it.
Are you team Mimi, or?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
team Jonathan Him.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I just called him him .
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Well, you know, the definition of holding space is
to be with someone on theirjourney, without judgment.
So I am team Mimi and Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Oh, I can't handle this anymore.
This is why.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I'm the grief curator .
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Thank, you everyone.
This is why, mimi, why, mimi,we're not asking that question
anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Is it because I didn't know the definition of
the word affirmation?
What was the word?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I said I was team Mimi and team Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
One day it will be me , only me.
Oh, my All right.
Well, thank you again, michelle.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Be careful what you wish for Bye everyone Careful
what you put out into the world.
Happy holidays, bye everyone.
Bye everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Bye Michelle, bye Jonathan Howard.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Bye, mimi Langley.
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