August 5, 2025 • 42 mins
🔥“You need to make space for what’s next. But first, you have to let go.”
In this deeply personal and powerful conversation, Coffee with E host Erica Rawls sits down with Sarah Hackenberg, founder of Grace in Cycles, to explore the emotional side of decluttering and how clearing physical space can help unlock your truest self.
From the grief of giving things away to the freedom that follows, this conversation goes beyond organization. It’s about trusting your voice, healing from burnout, and finding peace in your own home.
🎙️ You’ll Hear:
• Why some people cry when decluttering (and why that’s normal)
• The three-box rule: keep, toss, donate but do it with intention
• How Sarah went from school librarian to business owner
• The truth about clutter and trauma
• A fresh take on minimalism that isn’t about deprivation
Whether you’re overwhelmed by your closet, going through a breakup, or ready to reclaim your space, this episode will meet you there.
🔗 Sponsored by:
TOCH Construction • Allstate Insurance – Rob Shaw
Chavis Law Firm • Dirty Dog Hauling
💼 Powered by The Erica Rawls Team
#CoffeeWithE #GraceInCycles #DeclutteringYourLife #LetGoToGrow #WomenWhoLead #AuthenticLiving #MakeRoomForMore #SelfDiscoveryJourney #EricaRawlsTeam
Follow Us for More Inspiration:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica Rawls (00:00):
Hey you, I just had the amazing privilege of
sitting down with SarahHackenberg.
She owns a decluttering companycalled Grace in Cycles.
It is absolutely amazing theconversation that we had.
Who knew talking about clutterwould take us to spaces like
living your true, authenticselves, being able to truly
(00:21):
identify who you are, to let goand to allow other things to
come into your life.
Y'all I'm really excited.
I need you to sit back andwatch this, because I believe
you're going to take somethingout of this.
Be prepared to take notes andguess what?
My favorite thing.
I'm looking forward to meetingyou in the comments.
Hey you, today's roast.
(00:51):
How about getting rid of thingsthat no longer serve you?
A lot of times, we like to keepthings for monumental reasons,
and then one thing after anotherstarts piling up and piling up
and all of a sudden, you have aroom full of things.
Thing after another startspiling up and piling up and all
of a sudden, you have a roomfull of things, things that no
longer serve you.
How about we get rid of thosethings so you allow new things
(01:12):
to come into your life?
Because when you hold on to thepast, sometimes it doesn't
serve us well.
We have reminders good or bad,and sometimes it's better just
to move forward with newthoughts, new energy, new ideas,
new light into your life.
Sarah, I'm so happy to havecoffee with you today.
Thanks for inviting me.
You're so welcome.
You're so welcome.
(01:32):
So you heard the roast.
Sarah Hackenberg (01:35):
Yes, it was perfect.
It's like you read my mindReally.
Oh, absolutely.
How so?
Well, because, as an organizer,I am wanting to tell people
that exact thing that, while youwant to honor the things from
your past, you need to takestock of where you are now and
if those things serve you that'sthe exact language I often use
(01:55):
and then consider what do youwant for yourself in the future?
Yeah, and the things that youhold right now maybe you need to
let go, like you said, to makespace and give yourself energy
for your future dreams.
Erica Rawls (02:08):
Well, the reason I brought it up is because I'm
going through this coachingprogram.
Rory Abadon, brand Builders,and he always says that his
famous I guess one-liner is thebest person to serve is the
person you once were.
Sarah Hackenberg (02:24):
Interesting.
Erica Rawls (02:25):
Yeah.
So the reason why I was so nearand dear to me is because we
just recently had the idea ofjust purging all these things.
I live around people that liketo hold on to things, yes, and I
realized, maybe a couple monthsago I even had one of my dear
friends come over and just like,okay, I need your help to help
(02:46):
me, let go.
Yes, and she was able to guideme.
Like okay, you want to.
She put it into threecategories of things you want to
keep, things you want to throwaway and things you're going to
donate Perfect Right.
So it's because of thatexperience I'm able to roast,
because I know exactly thatperson, because I was that
(03:06):
person a couple months ago.
Sarah Hackenberg (03:08):
Yes, yeah, and that connects so much with what
I say to clients in thebeginning, when we're talking
about organizing and what theywant.
I say well, you need to thinkof a very specific goal.
What do you want for yourselfmoving forward?
Why are you decluttering?
Erica Rawls (03:23):
Yeah.
Sarah Hackenberg (03:23):
Because, yeah, there are three categories
keeping getting rid of trashingbut it's helpful to keep in mind
why you're doing it, becausewhat will come after you go
through that process, whetherit's allowing space for the next
thing, whether it's letting goto receive more energy for what
(03:44):
the future holds, but the goal,yeah, is really important.
What do you want for yourselfnext?
Erica Rawls (03:50):
And I know there's sometimes where, when you throw
away a thing, I caught myselfgetting a little bit choked up
because I'm like man, am Iletting go of something like a
loved one that passed away?
Right, Like how am I going tobe able to remember them?
So it starts becoming emotional.
Sarah Hackenberg (04:08):
It's very emotional, which is why it's so
wonderful you had your friendwith you.
Yeah, because whether you workwith an organizer or a friend or
a family member, it really canhelp the process to share it
with someone, especially if it'ssomething sentimental.
The most important thing is thestories and the memories you
have of the loved one, not thething itself, and being able to
(04:30):
share in the process of gettingrid of something, share the
story that this thing is holdingfor you.
That can help let it go.
Erica Rawls (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, dirty Dog Hauling.
Thank you so much for yoursponsorship.
If you're looking for junkremoval company, they are the
go-to company.
Whether you have a small job ora large job and even excavation
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They are reasonable and alsotimely and effective.
Dirty Dog Hauling.
Now back to the show.
(04:59):
So I know that you, so you andI met.
Yes, you and I met through, ofcourse, real estate.
Sarah Hackenberg (05:07):
Yes, you found me my forever home, which makes
me so happy.
Four or five years later, yes,and I was sort of starting over
with my life.
Erica Rawls (05:17):
Yes, yes, let's talk about that.
So when we actually met, youhad decided okay, I'm starting
over, yeah, and you were here.
You were in the area, correct,were you in San Diego at the
time?
Sarah Hackenberg (05:30):
Yes, but just barely so I had.
I grew up in centralPennsylvania, I left for college
and sort of lived outside ofPennsylvania my whole adult life
.
Got married.
Got married and after mydivorce came back here to sort
of be with family and figure outwhat was next for me and came
(05:52):
to Harrisburg to work with theHarrisburg School District.
I was a librarian for a longtime, until then deciding that I
was ready to follow my nextdream, which was own, my own
business.
But I met you just when I wasthinking about coming to
Harrisburg and settling down andstarting to pick set roots down
.
And it's been a wonderful fiveyears having a home, that where
(06:16):
I feel that peaceful sanctuaryis meaningful, and then just I
love our area.
We have so many wonderfulthings happening so I think it's
the best kept secret, I do.
Erica Rawls (06:25):
I agree in Pennsylvania.
Sarah Hackenberg (06:27):
Yeah, I really do think so.
Erica Rawls (06:29):
Yeah, because it costs a living and we're so
close to you know, dc to NewYork, philadelphia, like all the
major metropolitan areas.
Yeah, so what?
Maybe two hours away, two and ahalf?
I know Training, I just love it.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So then, one of the things thatI know you and I talked about,
we had an additional cup ofcoffee.
Sarah Hackenberg (06:52):
It's turning into a habit having coffee with
you.
Erica Rawls (06:55):
It is, and that's okay.
Yeah, what?
What was it that drew you toyour new profession?
Sarah Hackenberg (07:02):
So I had been a school librarian for 20 years.
It had been wonderful, Loved it, loved it, loved it.
And you know, education haschanged in 20 years and also 20
years doing the same thing.
Sometimes you start to realizeyou just need to change.
Yeah, and I took some time tothink about it and this little
(07:22):
voice in my head just keptsaying what if you worked for
yourself?
What if you ran your ownbusiness?
What?
would that look like.
Is that what you want?
And you know, along withdecluttering and making choices
about our things more and more,I just keep doubling down on
making choices for myself andwhat I want for myself.
And it's so powerful andobviously you don't just move
(07:45):
from, like you know, clearingout your junk drawer to you know
what I want next for myself youknow, start a business, but you
do sort of keep expanding yourview of well, I could also make
a choice about this.
Well, if I'm not taking forgranted what I live with, and
therefore I always have to havethese things, if I'm not taking
for granted what I live with,and therefore I always have to
(08:05):
have these things, if I'm makingchoices about that, I can also
start to make choices about whatelse I want for myself in my
life what new hobby I want topick up.
What for me, what relationship Ididn't want?
We talked a little bit about mymarriage, which was really hard
for me to walk away from, butit was a healthy decision for me
.
And so you just keep practicinguntil one day you're like I am
(08:27):
going to better myself and starta new business.
So here I am a year later yeah,very happy to be helping people
declutter and access what'simportant to them, right right.
So often our things just weighus down and we get into the
middle of it and we're just notsure how to move forward anymore
.
And it is such a privilege forme to be allowed by people to be
(08:51):
brought into their home to helpthem move forward and let go of
some of the things that areholding them back, so just so we
are.
Erica Rawls (09:00):
We speak to you.
Know the people our community,yes, who are young women, who
are people, our community, whoare young women, who are up with
the global, ambitiousgo-getters.
Right Then, they are prettymuch just dynamic in their own
way.
Had to take two seconds tothank Allstate Insurance for
sponsoring this episode.
If you're looking for car lifeor casualty insurance, they're
(09:24):
gonna be your ultimate insurancecompany.
Thank you, rob Shaw, withAllstate Insurance.
Now back to the show, andhowever they may struggle with
letting go, one of the things Idid hear you say was that it may
not be that you had to gothrough a process yourself of
letting go before you actuallygot into your own business.
Yes, can you speak to them,because there may be someone
(09:46):
that's right now going throughthat same thing.
Yep, afraid to make decisions,confidence in their decisions in
order to let go.
Sarah Hackenberg (09:53):
Yes, oh, my goodness, I do think it's
something.
Again, that is a practice.
Making choices gets a littleeasier with practice and making
choices, even though it mightseem small about.
You know, is my wardrobereflective of who I want to be,
(10:16):
and do I feel good every time Iput something on for my wardrobe
?
So it's sort of basic, but it'smeaningful because you know
what you put on represents you.
But making that choice to then,who am I?
Who am I?
Who am I and how am I going tomake sure that no one else is
influencing my thoughts aboutwho I am?
We just always have to keeppracticing that and,
(10:40):
unfortunately for me, I learnedthat the hard way.
You know, I had a prettyunhealthy marriage where, um,
yeah, my ex-husband was verysure of what he wanted and very
sure of what his partner shouldlook like, sound like, and, um,
(11:02):
yeah, I got to some pretty darkplaces where I didn't trust
myself anymore.
Oh, wow and um, but I?
But I think because and I betso many people in your audience
are like this we are strongwomen and there are many things
that we're confident about.
I was confident that I was asmart person, I was successful
(11:22):
professionally and yet.
Therefore, I kept thinking well, I can make this work, I can
make this relationship work andit slid into.
I can make this work, I can makethis relationship work and it
slid into.
I can keep this person happyand I won't worry as much about
me, because I'm fine.
I'm fine, I will focus onmaking this person happy.
(11:43):
But, at the end of the day,that's not our job.
No, to make someone else happy,right, and the more energy you
put into that, the less you havefor yourself.
And, as I did, you come to aplace where you don't know who
you are anymore, so that was sogood.
Erica Rawls (12:01):
And there's so many nuggets in there oh, there were
so many nuggets like for onethat you stop focusing on
becoming who you were and thefocus is on making the other
person happy, right, so forgetabout ourselves.
Yep, we're going to make her,make the other person happy.
Sarah Hackenberg (12:18):
And society tells women that all the time.
Yeah, all the time.
And you know, yes, for me mymarriage was unhealthy, but I
think we can have healthyrelationships and still get
caught in that trap.
Erica Rawls (12:33):
And still get caught in the trap.
How so?
Sarah Hackenberg (12:35):
Because even because you have a pretty
healthy relationship with yourparents or your kids or your
partner.
And why wouldn't we want tomake someone happy that we love,
right, yeah, and is it a bigdeal to always let them pick the
movie or always let them pickwhat we're having for dinner?
That's not a big deal, right?
And is it a big deal to alwayslet them pick the movie or
always let them pick what we'rehaving for dinner?
That's not a big deal, right?
(12:55):
And so?
And we just want to make thisperson we love happy.
And maybe they don't realize itand they take advantage and
just sort of keep being like, ohyeah, this is great, I always
pick the movie.
But again, the little choicesthat you're not making for
yourself can build intosomething that's unhealthy.
So it is a trap that you justalways want to keep touching
(13:17):
back on.
Am I where I want to be?
Am I who I want to be?
Am I able to be that personeverywhere in my life?
Like I said, I was verysuccessful professionally.
I was getting great feedback.
I felt like my true self justwhat you talk about, my true,
(13:37):
authentic self when I was aschool librarian, and so I
ignored the fact that I was notmy true, authentic self in my
marriage.
Wow.
Erica Rawls (13:48):
So it's funny that you say that, because I have
conversations with my daughtersall the time about how, how
important it is to become a me.
Yes, and you truly know who meor I am.
Yes, before you can become a we.
Absolutely.
Those are conversations that wedidn't necessarily have you know
what I mean before enteringinto our marriages.
(14:10):
Yeah, so I can understand howyou could lose sight of yourself
.
So that's why when people, whenyour children, leave the nest
like, you're like heartbroken,and part of it has to do with
because your identity is tied tothe children that just left you
.
Sarah Hackenberg (14:24):
Oh, my goodness Right, you're so right
and I love that you said that,because our identity and how we
identify ourself keeps changing,right?
It's not a bad thing that oneof your top or other people's
top identifiers were was mom,right.
But once you have an empty nest, you do sort of have to shift
(14:44):
that, and it wasn't a bad thingfor me necessarily to have a top
identifier as being a wife,correct.
Erica Rawls (14:51):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Sarah Hackenberg (14:52):
Right, no, and yet, yeah, I lost myself right
there.
So you know, one message alwaysis just remember that it's a
process.
You should continually bechecking with yourself.
What do I want for myself Inaddition to building this
relationship that I'm part of?
Erica Rawls (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, this is so good, sarah.
I know I'm going to keep sayingit Y'all because it's so good,
okay, and I hope you're takingnotes Right.
So here's the thing yes, you'rethe industry that you chose a
profession.
Yeah, I actually chose.
Yes, ties a lot to theconversation that we just had.
It does Okay.
So let's let's talk about that,okay.
Sarah Hackenberg (15:33):
Because, again , choice.
There is so much power inchoice and and we all accumulate
things almost without realizingit Sometimes, you know, we all
have at least five things in ourwardrobe that either don't fit
us anymore but we think maybethey'll fit us next year, or we
don't really like, but someonegave it to us so we feel bad
(15:54):
about letting it go.
Right, or that is my husband.
Erica Rawls (15:59):
Sorry, jessie, that is if someone bought it for him
.
Yeah, right, yes, he is notletting it go.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:09):
Guilt is very powerful.
Erica Rawls (16:10):
Does not.
Do you think it's guilt, or isit just honor?
I think for him it's honor,like he wants to honor the
person that gave him that heloves, because he loves so
deeply.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:18):
Yeah.
Erica Rawls (16:19):
Loves the person.
So if they took the time togive him something, he's going
to keep it forever.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:23):
Forever, I think forever is the challenge,
you know, because, yes, is thechallenge.
You know, because, yes, weabsolutely want to honor someone
.
We do, and but you know, I dooften have clients who are at a
point where they need to paredown.
Maybe they're moving to asmaller house and they've kept
(16:48):
all these things because theywant to honor the person, but
either they've got a closet fullof these things that they never
look at anymore, or now we haveto make those decisions and I
try to remind them that you knowthe person who gave you this
thing.
Right, if they truly love you,they would not want you to keep
it only to honor them or becauseof guilt.
Erica Rawls (17:11):
So that's what you say to the person as you're
going through your process.
Yes, okay, decluttering.
Okay, right, and so Is it wellreceived.
Sarah Hackenberg (17:20):
Every once in a while, someone's like actually
this person would totally wantme to keep this.
She would play the guilt yes,and you know I try not to make
any judgments about that personand they would guilt you into
keeping X thing.
But at the end of the day, thisdoes come back to our
conversation.
(17:40):
Just about you get to decidefor you and you need to.
Maybe you want to have aconversation, right, you know
that's your way of feeling, likeI can still honor this person
and say, hey, I appreciate thatyou gave me this blank and I've
kept it all this time and atthis point I'm realizing I'm
(18:01):
going to need to get rid of it.
It gives me more space forother things, or I'm letting go
of a lot of things.
Maybe you just group it intothe process.
Yeah, I've realized I need toregain some energy and part of
that is letting go of somethings that I've kept.
Thank you so much for this.
I guess you could offer.
Would you like it to pass on tosomeone else, because if not,
(18:23):
I'm going to donate it so thatsomeone else can enjoy it.
Erica Rawls (18:26):
Moving forward, yeah, I had to take two seconds
to interrupt this episode.
I would like to thank one ofour most recent guests, attorney
Jenny Chavis, for sponsoringthis show.
Chavis Law Firm is an elite lawfirm in central Pennsylvania
that helps with estate planningas well as understanding what
type of business entity youshould enter into when starting
(18:46):
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If you're looking for a greatattorney that understands estate
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way, you want to check outAttorney Chavis, chavis Law Firm
.
Now back to the show.
I like the fact that you saidyou know letting it go to allow
other energy to come in.
Sarah Hackenberg (19:05):
Yes, yeah, that's good and it is amazing.
And it is amazing Again.
One of the things that I feel soprivileged to do as an
organizer is be there whenpeople walk into a space that
either I've declaredindependently or we've worked on
together and watch their energyreturn, whether it's creative
(19:31):
energy, because suddenly theirproject room, which had gotten
too full and they couldn't evenwork there anymore, and suddenly
they walk into a space thatagain has room and they just
their creativity just startsbubbling out of them, yeah, or
even just you know, if you comehome after hard days of work and
you sit down on your couch and,yes, you're watching TV, but
really part of your brain isalways thinking, oh, there's
(19:52):
that pile of mail over there Ishould be doing.
Oh, there's that pile of clothesthat I dropped at the door when
I came in, I should be doing.
Whether you know it or not, allof those things are niggling at
you and draining energy,because you're constantly like,
no, I get to relax, I'm notdoing that.
Oh man, I should do that.
I'm not doing that, oh man, Ishould do that, I'm not doing
(20:12):
that.
And you're not aware of theconversation, but you're losing
energy right to those piles.
Erica Rawls (20:17):
That's why sometimes it's hard for people
to work from home.
Yes, because they'll see, thelaundry, those dishes aren't
completed.
They'll see, you know, toyseverywhere.
So they're not able to workfrom home because, like you said
, it's draining their energy.
It is, and then going to workis like a fresh place for them
to just oh, I can exhale, youknow.
Just forget about it right outof sight, out of mind.
Sarah Hackenberg (20:39):
Yes, and this is true with kids so especially.
You know, I taught online viazoom, yeah, with covid, um, so
kids work working, doing theirschoolwork from home, and people
who have any kind of brainbased condition, whether it's
ADHD or something else Kidssometimes deal with that.
(21:01):
There's a lot of studies thatsay a calm home environment
makes a significant differencein that focus throughout your
day, even when you're not home.
If you have that calm homeenvironment sort of to recharge
in, yeah, that that can helpyour symptoms, um, throughout
your day, and so there'ssomething powerful about that
(21:21):
just to engage the community.
Erica Rawls (21:24):
I would love to know, based on what she just
said, if you actually wentthrough the practice of
decluttering, just getting ridof things, did you have a sense
of like feeling like freedom?
Did anyone shed a tear like Idid when I cleaned out our whole
house, like it just gives youso much energy?
I would love to know if thatwas your experience, because
(21:46):
hearing you talk, I knowsomeone's like yep, yep, I can
relate, I can relate.
Sarah Hackenberg (21:52):
I hope so.
I hope so, and I will also sayto the people who maybe are
listening and they're thinkingno, it didn't, because the
opposite is, you have, you'reseeing, so much clutter in your
house that you try to declutterand you don't see progress, and
so you end up just beingfrustrated.
(22:13):
And so I just want to normalizethat, because it really can be
its own defeat to try todeclutter and recognize that
you're not functioning optimallyin your space, or you're having
trouble working from home, oryou can't relax, and so you try
(22:33):
to do what you see on TV and onsocial media.
Hey, here's this declutteringtrick, here's the strategy, and
you try it, and either itdoesn't work for you, because
not every strategy works forevery brain type, right,
everything resonates differentlywith people, and also sometimes
the project you pick Declutterthat was worthwhile, but it's
(22:59):
such a small piece within thebig picture that it doesn't add
up to the progress you need tosee, to feel motivated to keep
doing it.
And so just you know, pleasedon't be discouraged when that
happens.
It is about doing small chunksat a time.
(23:20):
Sometimes using a timer ishelpful, but it's also about
trying to focus on one categoryor one area.
So it's not like, oh my gosh,look at that kitchen, I better
do something over there.
Oh, but look at this laundry, Ibetter do that.
And you bounce around fromthing to thing and you do a
(23:41):
little bit from each, butsomehow it never amounts to as
much progress as you want.
Or you see other people havingsuccess with and that can really
cause hardship and then makeyou feel honestly.
Unfortunately, some people endup feeling like a failure and
there can be a downward spiral.
Erica Rawls (23:57):
Yeah, just as our positive energy builds as we
successfully declutter,sometimes negative energy can
build, as these things don'tquite work right so let's walk
through the process for someonethat may be toying with the idea
of getting rid of the oldthings that no longer serve them
.
Yes, yes, Can you walk usthrough?
Sarah Hackenberg (24:16):
that process.
So I would say, the first thingI always recommend is thinking
about the goal, and the goalcould just be my house is
chaotic and I want it to bepeaceful.
But you want to be morespecific.
You want to think, maybe, aboutone room.
I want to sit down at my couchand not have my coffee table
(24:40):
piled high.
Okay, you want to, and howyou're going to feel when that
happens, okay.
Or I want to walk into my kids'playroom and not step on toys,
and so, therefore, we're goingto work with all the family's,
going to work together, andwe're going to get rid of the
toys that our kids don't don'tuse anymore, they've aged out of
.
So you want to get a specificgoal.
(25:02):
Then you want to gather yourtools.
So this is like that's themental.
The practical is, you want togather a trash bag.
You want to gather a coupleboxes for donations, maybe
something for oh, we knowsomeone else who could use this
Maybe a giveaway box Recycling,but you want to have those with
you.
So it's not like, oh, here'ssome trash, let me wander over
(25:23):
there and put it away.
Well then, when you're overthere, you get distracted and
it's 10 minutes till you comeback to your project, so you
want to sort of have everythingready to go, okay, and then I
would say the next thing to keepin mind is start small.
Erica Rawls (25:41):
Okay, so pick a small project.
I'm a Chinese girl, so startingsmall is not easy.
Sarah Hackenberg (25:45):
Yes, it's not easy because you're like all
right, I'm going to go throughmy closet, yeah, but you take
everything out of your closet,you spread it in your bedroom,
you start trying on clothes.
Trying on clothes is exhausting, yeah and so no, not for me.
Okay, okay, yeah and so no.
No, ok, ok, no, but 30, 45, 60minutes of it, which is at least
(26:08):
what you're going to need.
Yeah, you start to get tired,and when you get tired, suddenly
you look around and yourbedroom is a mess because you
haven't dealt with all theclothes.
And then you really are nothappy because you're exhausted,
you're sort of a little grumpybecause not everything fit you
the way you want it to anymoreand you still have to clean up
the mess in your bedroom.
Erica Rawls (26:26):
But, sarah, every fashion trend comes back around.
So you're trying.
You have to convince me, okay,yes, why I need to get rid of my
clothes when I know that youknow what I want to share a
story with you.
The leather trench, oh, thatyou know what I want to share a
story with you?
Okay, the leather trench, oh,and I loved it.
(26:46):
It was burgundy,double-breasted with the pointy
oh colors, not cheap.
I'm sure this was back.
I mean, I had to have beenmaybe 21 and so you spend some
money on it, do you not know?
I wish I had it today, becauseit's back, yes, so now you have
to convince me why just likepeople like me, why we should
throw away our clothes.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:04):
OK, first of all, remember you're not
throwing them away.
You're going to donate them tosomeone.
Donate to someone else, right?
Well, actually, sometimes youshould throw something away.
Don't.
Don't send anything to adonation center that's ripped or
soiled.
Erica Rawls (27:18):
You know.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:18):
So yeah, you want to make sure it's something
that people would legitimatelywant.
Erica Rawls (27:27):
But the whole idea of what if I need it someday is
very powerful.
No, but it comes back.
What if it comes back?
It's very fashion.
You keep your eyes on, you knowwhat's going on in the industry
and you are very fashionable.
I know yes, so it may come back.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:38):
All right, there's a couple ways to think
about it.
Yeah, one is it taking up spacethat you want for the current
trend?
And maybe you have right, youmight have a big enough closet
where it's like, oh, actually,no, I do have a small section of
my closet for the really,really nice pieces, yeah,
special pieces, yeah, and youhave room for it.
(28:01):
Okay, you know what I'm, I'mfine with that, ok.
If you don't have a big enoughcloset, though, or you're like,
yeah, but I keep buying thisother stuff, and then we're
cramming, cramming, crammingthese things, and you can't even
access your clothes anymore,yeah, then I might push a little
bit on that one.
Erica Rawls (28:17):
Yeah, hey.
Ok.
So the people in fashion yes, Ijust saved y'all.
Yes, saved y'all big time.
Absolutely yeah, because I waslike what Get rid of all this
stuff?
Okay, so, special pieces we cankeep, yeah.
Everything else that no longerserves us, we can get rid of.
Yeah, but that, yeah, I wish.
Sarah Hackenberg (28:35):
But the special ones.
I mean that's special.
You could replace it quicklyfor a reasonable cost if you
ever decide you need it or if itcomes back in fashion.
Yeah, if you could do that,throw it away now or donate it
now, okay.
But your leather jacket, whichwas unique and it was a little
(28:57):
more, you spend some money onthat.
Well, that's not something youcould replace quickly for low
cost.
So that sort of hits that marktoo.
Yeah, so there you go, twodifferent permissions to keep it
.
Yeah, if only you had knownback then so?
Erica Rawls (29:10):
did you ever run across someone that, just like
they, really struggled withgetting rid of their items?
Very much like what do yourecommend for that person?
I mean, because I'm thinking atthat point well, you tell us,
yeah, tell us what you would do.
Sarah Hackenberg (29:23):
Well, I do say that you know decluttering and
making choices.
It is, it's a muscle.
You do need to start off.
You don't go in and start.
You know lifting 50 poundweights.
You need to start off with yourfive pound weights or your 10
pound weights, right?
So you want to start with thelow hanging fruit.
You want to start with the easydecisions, so you want to start
with the low hanging fruit.
(29:44):
You want to start with the easydecisions, so this is why you do
start by decluttering a junkdrawer, yeah, and start by, you
know, decluttering cleaningsupplies that are crowding under
your kitchen sink or yourbathroom sink.
Maybe your shoe collection,Because, again, fashion wise,
maybe they're not.
Sir, I need you to stay awayfrom fashion.
I'm talking to the wrong personabout the shoe collection, but
(30:07):
you might be able to realize ohokay, you know these are special
, but you know I can get rid of10 pairs of my.
I have 50 pairs, I don't know.
Erica Rawls (30:19):
I don't know.
Sarah Hackenberg (30:19):
Some people, you know, a shoe collection is
not so emotional, but you dowant to practice on the easy
things first, and so that by thetime you get around to the more
emotional decisions, a coupleof things have happened.
Number one you've practiced andyou're feeling you're getting
better at making decisions.
Number two you're seeingprogress in your space.
You're starting to see the roomthat you've created by letting
(30:43):
go some of those easy things andyou are getting some energy and
some motivation and some goodfeelings from that which.
So then, by the time you arelooking at the more emotional
things, you are more aware ofwhat you're going to gain by
letting some of those things gothe energy, the space that's
(31:04):
allowing you to think about whoyou want to be next, where you
want to go next.
But you have to build up to it.
So I would say start on theeasy things, Okay that's good.
Erica Rawls (31:13):
Start with the easy things.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
So have you ever had someoneyou had to turn away Like you're
, just like you know what?
Sarah Hackenberg (31:29):
this is beyond me.
I have not yet, but that'sabsolutely something I would do.
You know I'm part of two.
There are several nationalorganizations for organizers and
the two that I belong to theacronyms are NAPO and ICD.
They have very strong ethicalstandards, which is so important
to me, and one of the thingsthat's ethical is knowing what
you are and are not capable of,and not doing your client the
(31:53):
disservice of taking on theirjob when you know that you can't
truly serve them in the waythat they need, truly serve them
in the way that they need.
So you know, hoarding disorderis a mental health disorder,
officially at this point andoften so.
There's a scale for that and ifsomeone it's a one to five
(32:15):
scale.
If someone was at a three, four, five level of dealing with
hoarding disorder, that would,for example, example, not be a
client that I would.
I know I cannot serve them asthey would need.
I have done some education inhelping in that way.
But you really need a team ofpeople and you need major family
(32:38):
and friends support, as well asoften a mental health
professional to help this person.
Because, yes, making decisionsand letting go of emotional
things is hard for everybody,but if you're dealing with the
hoarding disorder, it's actuallythings that would not seem like
a big deal to you and me can bevery, very traumatic.
(32:59):
What are the signs?
Because I mean so, if you thinkabout people who are, as a
hoarder, you know, and I havehad clients, when I first meet
them, say, oh, do you think I'ma hoarder?
Or I am a hoarder, and so it iscertainly terminology.
We throw around a lot in oursociety, not too loosely, I
think so.
Yeah, because it does adisservice to the people who are
(33:21):
truly suffering under thedisorder.
So one of the things to beaware of is if you have
sometimes stacks of newspapersor stacks of coupons or stacks
of magazines that you can't getrid of.
Erica Rawls (33:41):
Someone just cringed right now.
Sarah Hackenberg (33:43):
Yeah, and when I say stacks, it's not like a
stack beside your coffee, yourcouch, that at some point you're
going to go through, it's thatit's really almost compulsive
where your home is starting tobe filled with stacks and stacks
of, for example, magazines, toa point where it's maybe very
(34:04):
difficult to get in and out ofrooms.
Oh wow, it's starting to be asafety hazard.
Yeah, and you may understandthat your house is crowded and
still, if someone, awell-meaning friend or family
member, says, hey, you know what, let me just take these to the
recycling for you so that I canhelp clear out some space in
this room, you won't be able tolet it go.
(34:25):
It will be a traumatic thing tolet that go.
Erica Rawls (34:32):
So you're walking in the house, you see this.
You're like, oh, this is beyondme.
Do you have services that youoffer as a backup?
Sarah Hackenberg (34:40):
Thankfully, there are multiple organizers in
our area and I always try toreach out to as many as possible
because one what I appreciateabout organizers is the same
thing as educators.
We have a abundance mindset.
We know that the need is thereand there is business and need
for all of us and, to my way ofthinking, the more organizers I
(35:03):
know, the better I can serve myclients.
When I'm not the right personor I don't have room in my
schedule, I can recommendsomeone else.
I can recommend someone whospecializes perhaps in working
with people with hoardingdisorder, or have more, a bigger
team available if they'rehelping someone clear out and
they have a time limit.
(35:23):
So absolutely always want to berecommending someone else if
they would.
Erica Rawls (35:27):
So you never go in the home and say, oh, you have a
hoarding disorder.
You may want to get in contactwith X.
That's not your lane at all.
You're just like.
Hey, I may know of anotherorganizer that'd be able to
serve you better organizer thatbe able to serve you better.
Sarah Hackenberg (35:49):
I have never yet walked into a home and but
it would absolutely be somethingI would take seriously to think
about.
Can I really help this personnow that I see their conditions?
Can I help them as asolopreneur is working on my own
or not?
And if I can, I need to behonest with myself.
If I can't help them, then I amgoing to refer them to someone
(36:11):
else.
Erica Rawls (36:11):
Yeah, so Gen Z's and millennials are talking
about minimalists.
I'm a minimalist.
Can we define that?
What does that?
Sarah Hackenberg (36:20):
mean.
So minimalism is doing withless right, and I think it's so
interesting.
On one end of the scale, when Isay I'm an organizer, people
think about Quarters, the TVshow and on the other end, it's
Marie Kondo who I think standsout to people as the minimalist,
the one who is.
(36:41):
You know, hold it, does itspark joy?
And if the answer is no, let itgo.
And in many of her books shedoes advocate for less is
probably more.
And so people are worried thatthey're going to hire me and I'm
going to make them get rid ofall their stuff because I think
(37:02):
the best thing is minimalism andthe truth is I don't think
there is.
The only way to be organized isto be a minimalist.
I have a friend we talkregularly about.
My style is actually a littlemore minimal and hers is more on
the maximal side.
But as long as you can accesswhat you enjoy, as long as your
(37:23):
collections, you can view themso that you're truly enjoying
them.
If you want more things, that'sfine.
I'm only here to help you makesure you know what's really
important to you and make thosechoices and reconsider if the
things you've just been hangingon to for years or decades
(37:43):
sometimes is still thatimportant to you?
And then the things that wedecide together are important to
you.
Make sure they're optimallystored in your home so that you
can access and enjoy them.
Ok, and so I don't thinkminimalism is necessarily the
answer to not being organized.
Erica Rawls (38:02):
So meaning one of everything Is that a definition
of a minimalist Like you onlyhave one item, and how would you
?
Sarah Hackenberg (38:10):
That's interesting.
I guess a minimalist.
Honestly, I think it's not evenhaving one of everything, it's
having not all the things.
You don't even need to have onething in every category, right?
Not all the things.
You don't even need to have onething in every category, right?
You can think I'm trying tothink of a good example as far
as like a decor kind of thing.
Erica Rawls (38:31):
Hey, I need to take two seconds to interrupt this
wonderful show that you'rewatching.
I run a real estate businessand the way we fund this podcast
is through that business, theErica Ross team.
I would love it if you wouldjust give us one opportunity to
service your real estate needs,whether you are in central PA or
around the entire world.
Think of us first, so we canhelp you.
(38:51):
Now back to the show.
Sarah Hackenberg (38:52):
So, like pillows you know it's not
necessarily a minimalist willonly have one pillow, right.
On the other hand, throwblankets Maybe they have decided
I don't even need one throwblanket.
So it's really consideringeverything that society tells me
we need and I should buy, justsort of rejecting that idea and
(39:16):
saying I don't need to buyeverything.
And air fryers, right, tons ofkitchens have those.
Now Maybe a minimalist is ableto say not only do I not need to
have two, because I got one ona great discount at Costco and I
have it in case the first onebreaks.
The minimalist would sayactually I don't need an air
(39:37):
fryer at all because the way Icook doesn't connect to an air
fryer, and so I'm just going toreject that idea as the current
trend that everyone's supposedto buy Right, and in that way I
do appreciate minimalism as acurrent approach to a
consumerism.
Yeah Is just saying no.
It's not always just becauseI'm being advertised to that I
(40:01):
should buy it to keep up with myneighbor or who.
Erica Rawls (40:04):
I see, that's what I was going to say.
So for my generation, they'rechoosing not to keep up with the
Joneses, right?
So if you're a minimalist,you're like, no, I don't need it
.
Yeah, do I really, you know, doI really need it?
Right?
Sarah Hackenberg (40:15):
if not, then I'm just gonna let it go and I
applaud that and I think that'sa valuable attitude.
Whatever you call it, I thinkthat's really a valuable way to
look at things.
Erica Rawls (40:23):
So, sarah, how can someone get in?
Sarah Hackenberg (40:24):
contact with you.
So my website is Grace andCycles.
Yes, we were just talking, Iknow, it's just so easy to talk
with you.
So, grace, because I know thatwe all need a little extra help,
we all need some grace,sometimes in different cycles of
our life.
So, grace and Cycles is the nameof my company,
(40:45):
graceandcyclescom, is my websiteand I'm on LinkedIn and
Instagram and Facebook.
Yeah, so I always tell peopleI'm happy to talk through, you
know, do a free phoneconsultation, talk about where
they're at and what they'retrying to achieve and sometimes
I do what they're trying toachieve and sometimes I do
because I had a background ineducation really try to share.
(41:12):
A lot of my posts areeducational just trying to
either, you know, changemindsets or change attitudes
that maybe are hurtful or nothelpful to your own process.
Give tips.
So if people I want to empowerpeople to make the choices about
the things in their life sothat they are happy where
they're at and can envision whatthey want for themselves next,
(41:33):
and if I can do that with just afew tips that spark something
for you, wonderful.
If you want a little bit morehelp and want to work with me,
then I'm also happy to do that.
Erica Rawls (41:43):
So, yeah, that's awesome.
Who knew talking about clutterwould go so deep and be so good?
Sarah Hackenberg (41:49):
Well, I know it because, yeah, you seem to
always bring this out on yourguests.
Erica Rawls (41:55):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Yes, it was a pleasure havingcoffee with you too.
Okay, y'all, until next time,if you enjoyed this.
I need you to do me a favor.
I need you to subscribe Excuseme, I got excited.
Subscribe, like, share and,most of all, please comment,
because I'm looking forward tomeeting you in the comments.
Hey you, I just had the amazing privilege of
sitting down with SarahHackenberg.
She owns a decluttering companycalled Grace in Cycles.
It is absolutely amazing theconversation that we had.
Who knew talking about clutterwould take us to spaces like
living your true, authenticselves, being able to truly
(00:21):
identify who you are, to let goand to allow other things to
come into your life.
Y'all I'm really excited.
I need you to sit back andwatch this, because I believe
you're going to take somethingout of this.
Be prepared to take notes andguess what?
My favorite thing.
I'm looking forward to meetingyou in the comments.
Hey you, today's roast.
(00:51):
How about getting rid of thingsthat no longer serve you?
A lot of times, we like to keepthings for monumental reasons,
and then one thing after anotherstarts piling up and piling up
and all of a sudden, you have aroom full of things.
Thing after another startspiling up and piling up and all
of a sudden, you have a roomfull of things, things that no
longer serve you.
How about we get rid of thosethings so you allow new things
(01:12):
to come into your life?
Because when you hold on to thepast, sometimes it doesn't
serve us well.
We have reminders good or bad,and sometimes it's better just
to move forward with newthoughts, new energy, new ideas,
new light into your life.
Sarah, I'm so happy to havecoffee with you today.
Thanks for inviting me.
You're so welcome.
You're so welcome.
(01:32):
So you heard the roast.
Sarah Hackenberg (01:35):
Yes, it was perfect.
It's like you read my mindReally.
Oh, absolutely.
How so?
Well, because, as an organizer,I am wanting to tell people
that exact thing that, while youwant to honor the things from
your past, you need to takestock of where you are now and
if those things serve you that'sthe exact language I often use
(01:55):
and then consider what do youwant for yourself in the future?
Yeah, and the things that youhold right now maybe you need to
let go, like you said, to makespace and give yourself energy
for your future dreams.
Erica Rawls (02:08):
Well, the reason I brought it up is because I'm
going through this coachingprogram.
Rory Abadon, brand Builders,and he always says that his
famous I guess one-liner is thebest person to serve is the
person you once were.
Sarah Hackenberg (02:24):
Interesting.
Erica Rawls (02:25):
Yeah.
So the reason why I was so nearand dear to me is because we
just recently had the idea ofjust purging all these things.
I live around people that liketo hold on to things, yes, and I
realized, maybe a couple monthsago I even had one of my dear
friends come over and just like,okay, I need your help to help
(02:46):
me, let go.
Yes, and she was able to guideme.
Like okay, you want to.
She put it into threecategories of things you want to
keep, things you want to throwaway and things you're going to
donate Perfect Right.
So it's because of thatexperience I'm able to roast,
because I know exactly thatperson, because I was that
(03:06):
person a couple months ago.
Sarah Hackenberg (03:08):
Yes, yeah, and that connects so much with what
I say to clients in thebeginning, when we're talking
about organizing and what theywant.
I say well, you need to thinkof a very specific goal.
What do you want for yourselfmoving forward?
Why are you decluttering?
Erica Rawls (03:23):
Yeah.
Sarah Hackenberg (03:23):
Because, yeah, there are three categories
keeping getting rid of trashingbut it's helpful to keep in mind
why you're doing it, becausewhat will come after you go
through that process, whetherit's allowing space for the next
thing, whether it's letting goto receive more energy for what
(03:44):
the future holds, but the goal,yeah, is really important.
What do you want for yourselfnext?
Erica Rawls (03:50):
And I know there's sometimes where, when you throw
away a thing, I caught myselfgetting a little bit choked up
because I'm like man, am Iletting go of something like a
loved one that passed away?
Right, Like how am I going tobe able to remember them?
So it starts becoming emotional.
Sarah Hackenberg (04:08):
It's very emotional, which is why it's so
wonderful you had your friendwith you.
Yeah, because whether you workwith an organizer or a friend or
a family member, it really canhelp the process to share it
with someone, especially if it'ssomething sentimental.
The most important thing is thestories and the memories you
have of the loved one, not thething itself, and being able to
(04:30):
share in the process of gettingrid of something, share the
story that this thing is holdingfor you.
That can help let it go.
Erica Rawls (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, dirty Dog Hauling.
Thank you so much for yoursponsorship.
If you're looking for junkremoval company, they are the
go-to company.
Whether you have a small job ora large job and even excavation
, you want to check them out.
They are reasonable and alsotimely and effective.
Dirty Dog Hauling.
Now back to the show.
(04:59):
So I know that you, so you andI met.
Yes, you and I met through, ofcourse, real estate.
Sarah Hackenberg (05:07):
Yes, you found me my forever home, which makes
me so happy.
Four or five years later, yes,and I was sort of starting over
with my life.
Erica Rawls (05:17):
Yes, yes, let's talk about that.
So when we actually met, youhad decided okay, I'm starting
over, yeah, and you were here.
You were in the area, correct,were you in San Diego at the
time?
Sarah Hackenberg (05:30):
Yes, but just barely so I had.
I grew up in centralPennsylvania, I left for college
and sort of lived outside ofPennsylvania my whole adult life
.
Got married.
Got married and after mydivorce came back here to sort
of be with family and figure outwhat was next for me and came
(05:52):
to Harrisburg to work with theHarrisburg School District.
I was a librarian for a longtime, until then deciding that I
was ready to follow my nextdream, which was own, my own
business.
But I met you just when I wasthinking about coming to
Harrisburg and settling down andstarting to pick set roots down
.
And it's been a wonderful fiveyears having a home, that where
(06:16):
I feel that peaceful sanctuaryis meaningful, and then just I
love our area.
We have so many wonderfulthings happening so I think it's
the best kept secret, I do.
Erica Rawls (06:25):
I agree in Pennsylvania.
Sarah Hackenberg (06:27):
Yeah, I really do think so.
Erica Rawls (06:29):
Yeah, because it costs a living and we're so
close to you know, dc to NewYork, philadelphia, like all the
major metropolitan areas.
Yeah, so what?
Maybe two hours away, two and ahalf?
I know Training, I just love it.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So then, one of the things thatI know you and I talked about,
we had an additional cup ofcoffee.
Sarah Hackenberg (06:52):
It's turning into a habit having coffee with
you.
Erica Rawls (06:55):
It is, and that's okay.
Yeah, what?
What was it that drew you toyour new profession?
Sarah Hackenberg (07:02):
So I had been a school librarian for 20 years.
It had been wonderful, Loved it, loved it, loved it.
And you know, education haschanged in 20 years and also 20
years doing the same thing.
Sometimes you start to realizeyou just need to change.
Yeah, and I took some time tothink about it and this little
(07:22):
voice in my head just keptsaying what if you worked for
yourself?
What if you ran your ownbusiness?
What?
would that look like.
Is that what you want?
And you know, along withdecluttering and making choices
about our things more and more,I just keep doubling down on
making choices for myself andwhat I want for myself.
And it's so powerful andobviously you don't just move
(07:45):
from, like you know, clearingout your junk drawer to you know
what I want next for myself youknow, start a business, but you
do sort of keep expanding yourview of well, I could also make
a choice about this.
Well, if I'm not taking forgranted what I live with, and
therefore I always have to havethese things, if I'm not taking
for granted what I live with,and therefore I always have to
(08:05):
have these things, if I'm makingchoices about that, I can also
start to make choices about whatelse I want for myself in my
life what new hobby I want topick up.
What for me, what relationship Ididn't want?
We talked a little bit about mymarriage, which was really hard
for me to walk away from, butit was a healthy decision for me
.
And so you just keep practicinguntil one day you're like I am
(08:27):
going to better myself and starta new business.
So here I am a year later yeah,very happy to be helping people
declutter and access what'simportant to them, right right.
So often our things just weighus down and we get into the
middle of it and we're just notsure how to move forward anymore
.
And it is such a privilege forme to be allowed by people to be
(08:51):
brought into their home to helpthem move forward and let go of
some of the things that areholding them back, so just so we
are.
Erica Rawls (09:00):
We speak to you.
Know the people our community,yes, who are young women, who
are people, our community, whoare young women, who are up with
the global, ambitiousgo-getters.
Right Then, they are prettymuch just dynamic in their own
way.
Had to take two seconds tothank Allstate Insurance for
sponsoring this episode.
If you're looking for car lifeor casualty insurance, they're
(09:24):
gonna be your ultimate insurancecompany.
Thank you, rob Shaw, withAllstate Insurance.
Now back to the show, andhowever they may struggle with
letting go, one of the things Idid hear you say was that it may
not be that you had to gothrough a process yourself of
letting go before you actuallygot into your own business.
Yes, can you speak to them,because there may be someone
(09:46):
that's right now going throughthat same thing.
Yep, afraid to make decisions,confidence in their decisions in
order to let go.
Sarah Hackenberg (09:53):
Yes, oh, my goodness, I do think it's
something.
Again, that is a practice.
Making choices gets a littleeasier with practice and making
choices, even though it mightseem small about.
You know, is my wardrobereflective of who I want to be,
(10:16):
and do I feel good every time Iput something on for my wardrobe
?
So it's sort of basic, but it'smeaningful because you know
what you put on represents you.
But making that choice to then,who am I?
Who am I?
Who am I and how am I going tomake sure that no one else is
influencing my thoughts aboutwho I am?
We just always have to keeppracticing that and,
(10:40):
unfortunately for me, I learnedthat the hard way.
You know, I had a prettyunhealthy marriage where, um,
yeah, my ex-husband was verysure of what he wanted and very
sure of what his partner shouldlook like, sound like, and, um,
(11:02):
yeah, I got to some pretty darkplaces where I didn't trust
myself anymore.
Oh, wow and um, but I?
But I think because and I betso many people in your audience
are like this we are strongwomen and there are many things
that we're confident about.
I was confident that I was asmart person, I was successful
(11:22):
professionally and yet.
Therefore, I kept thinking well, I can make this work, I can
make this relationship work andit slid into.
I can make this work, I can makethis relationship work and it
slid into.
I can keep this person happyand I won't worry as much about
me, because I'm fine.
I'm fine, I will focus onmaking this person happy.
(11:43):
But, at the end of the day,that's not our job.
No, to make someone else happy,right, and the more energy you
put into that, the less you havefor yourself.
And, as I did, you come to aplace where you don't know who
you are anymore, so that was sogood.
Erica Rawls (12:01):
And there's so many nuggets in there oh, there were
so many nuggets like for onethat you stop focusing on
becoming who you were and thefocus is on making the other
person happy, right, so forgetabout ourselves.
Yep, we're going to make her,make the other person happy.
Sarah Hackenberg (12:18):
And society tells women that all the time.
Yeah, all the time.
And you know, yes, for me mymarriage was unhealthy, but I
think we can have healthyrelationships and still get
caught in that trap.
Erica Rawls (12:33):
And still get caught in the trap.
How so?
Sarah Hackenberg (12:35):
Because even because you have a pretty
healthy relationship with yourparents or your kids or your
partner.
And why wouldn't we want tomake someone happy that we love,
right, yeah, and is it a bigdeal to always let them pick the
movie or always let them pickwhat we're having for dinner?
That's not a big deal, right?
And is it a big deal to alwayslet them pick the movie or
always let them pick what we'rehaving for dinner?
That's not a big deal, right?
(12:55):
And so?
And we just want to make thisperson we love happy.
And maybe they don't realize itand they take advantage and
just sort of keep being like, ohyeah, this is great, I always
pick the movie.
But again, the little choicesthat you're not making for
yourself can build intosomething that's unhealthy.
So it is a trap that you justalways want to keep touching
(13:17):
back on.
Am I where I want to be?
Am I who I want to be?
Am I able to be that personeverywhere in my life?
Like I said, I was verysuccessful professionally.
I was getting great feedback.
I felt like my true self justwhat you talk about, my true,
(13:37):
authentic self when I was aschool librarian, and so I
ignored the fact that I was notmy true, authentic self in my
marriage.
Wow.
Erica Rawls (13:48):
So it's funny that you say that, because I have
conversations with my daughtersall the time about how, how
important it is to become a me.
Yes, and you truly know who meor I am.
Yes, before you can become a we.
Absolutely.
Those are conversations that wedidn't necessarily have you know
what I mean before enteringinto our marriages.
(14:10):
Yeah, so I can understand howyou could lose sight of yourself
.
So that's why when people, whenyour children, leave the nest
like, you're like heartbroken,and part of it has to do with
because your identity is tied tothe children that just left you
.
Sarah Hackenberg (14:24):
Oh, my goodness Right, you're so right
and I love that you said that,because our identity and how we
identify ourself keeps changing,right?
It's not a bad thing that oneof your top or other people's
top identifiers were was mom,right.
But once you have an empty nest, you do sort of have to shift
(14:44):
that, and it wasn't a bad thingfor me necessarily to have a top
identifier as being a wife,correct.
Erica Rawls (14:51):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Sarah Hackenberg (14:52):
Right, no, and yet, yeah, I lost myself right
there.
So you know, one message alwaysis just remember that it's a
process.
You should continually bechecking with yourself.
What do I want for myself Inaddition to building this
relationship that I'm part of?
Erica Rawls (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, this is so good, sarah.
I know I'm going to keep sayingit Y'all because it's so good,
okay, and I hope you're takingnotes Right.
So here's the thing yes, you'rethe industry that you chose a
profession.
Yeah, I actually chose.
Yes, ties a lot to theconversation that we just had.
It does Okay.
So let's let's talk about that,okay.
Sarah Hackenberg (15:33):
Because, again , choice.
There is so much power inchoice and and we all accumulate
things almost without realizingit Sometimes, you know, we all
have at least five things in ourwardrobe that either don't fit
us anymore but we think maybethey'll fit us next year, or we
don't really like, but someonegave it to us so we feel bad
(15:54):
about letting it go.
Right, or that is my husband.
Erica Rawls (15:59):
Sorry, jessie, that is if someone bought it for him
.
Yeah, right, yes, he is notletting it go.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:09):
Guilt is very powerful.
Erica Rawls (16:10):
Does not.
Do you think it's guilt, or isit just honor?
I think for him it's honor,like he wants to honor the
person that gave him that heloves, because he loves so
deeply.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:18):
Yeah.
Erica Rawls (16:19):
Loves the person.
So if they took the time togive him something, he's going
to keep it forever.
Sarah Hackenberg (16:23):
Forever, I think forever is the challenge,
you know, because, yes, is thechallenge.
You know, because, yes, weabsolutely want to honor someone
.
We do, and but you know, I dooften have clients who are at a
point where they need to paredown.
Maybe they're moving to asmaller house and they've kept
(16:48):
all these things because theywant to honor the person, but
either they've got a closet fullof these things that they never
look at anymore, or now we haveto make those decisions and I
try to remind them that you knowthe person who gave you this
thing.
Right, if they truly love you,they would not want you to keep
it only to honor them or becauseof guilt.
Erica Rawls (17:11):
So that's what you say to the person as you're
going through your process.
Yes, okay, decluttering.
Okay, right, and so Is it wellreceived.
Sarah Hackenberg (17:20):
Every once in a while, someone's like actually
this person would totally wantme to keep this.
She would play the guilt yes,and you know I try not to make
any judgments about that personand they would guilt you into
keeping X thing.
But at the end of the day, thisdoes come back to our
conversation.
(17:40):
Just about you get to decidefor you and you need to.
Maybe you want to have aconversation, right, you know
that's your way of feeling, likeI can still honor this person
and say, hey, I appreciate thatyou gave me this blank and I've
kept it all this time and atthis point I'm realizing I'm
(18:01):
going to need to get rid of it.
It gives me more space forother things, or I'm letting go
of a lot of things.
Maybe you just group it intothe process.
Yeah, I've realized I need toregain some energy and part of
that is letting go of somethings that I've kept.
Thank you so much for this.
I guess you could offer.
Would you like it to pass on tosomeone else, because if not,
(18:23):
I'm going to donate it so thatsomeone else can enjoy it.
Erica Rawls (18:26):
Moving forward, yeah, I had to take two seconds
to interrupt this episode.
I would like to thank one ofour most recent guests, attorney
Jenny Chavis, for sponsoringthis show.
Chavis Law Firm is an elite lawfirm in central Pennsylvania
that helps with estate planningas well as understanding what
type of business entity youshould enter into when starting
(18:46):
your business.
If you're looking for a greatattorney that understands estate
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.
Now back to the show.
I like the fact that you saidyou know letting it go to allow
other energy to come in.
Sarah Hackenberg (19:05):
Yes, yeah, that's good and it is amazing.
And it is amazing Again.
One of the things that I feel soprivileged to do as an
organizer is be there whenpeople walk into a space that
either I've declaredindependently or we've worked on
together and watch their energyreturn, whether it's creative
(19:31):
energy, because suddenly theirproject room, which had gotten
too full and they couldn't evenwork there anymore, and suddenly
they walk into a space thatagain has room and they just
their creativity just startsbubbling out of them, yeah, or
even just you know, if you comehome after hard days of work and
you sit down on your couch and,yes, you're watching TV, but
really part of your brain isalways thinking, oh, there's
(19:52):
that pile of mail over there Ishould be doing.
Oh, there's that pile of clothesthat I dropped at the door when
I came in, I should be doing.
Whether you know it or not, allof those things are niggling at
you and draining energy,because you're constantly like,
no, I get to relax, I'm notdoing that.
Oh man, I should do that.
I'm not doing that, oh man, Ishould do that, I'm not doing
(20:12):
that.
And you're not aware of theconversation, but you're losing
energy right to those piles.
Erica Rawls (20:17):
That's why sometimes it's hard for people
to work from home.
Yes, because they'll see, thelaundry, those dishes aren't
completed.
They'll see, you know, toyseverywhere.
So they're not able to workfrom home because, like you said
, it's draining their energy.
It is, and then going to workis like a fresh place for them
to just oh, I can exhale, youknow.
Just forget about it right outof sight, out of mind.
Sarah Hackenberg (20:39):
Yes, and this is true with kids so especially.
You know, I taught online viazoom, yeah, with covid, um, so
kids work working, doing theirschoolwork from home, and people
who have any kind of brainbased condition, whether it's
ADHD or something else Kidssometimes deal with that.
(21:01):
There's a lot of studies thatsay a calm home environment
makes a significant differencein that focus throughout your
day, even when you're not home.
If you have that calm homeenvironment sort of to recharge
in, yeah, that that can helpyour symptoms, um, throughout
your day, and so there'ssomething powerful about that
(21:21):
just to engage the community.
Erica Rawls (21:24):
I would love to know, based on what she just
said, if you actually wentthrough the practice of
decluttering, just getting ridof things, did you have a sense
of like feeling like freedom?
Did anyone shed a tear like Idid when I cleaned out our whole
house, like it just gives youso much energy?
I would love to know if thatwas your experience, because
(21:46):
hearing you talk, I knowsomeone's like yep, yep, I can
relate, I can relate.
Sarah Hackenberg (21:52):
I hope so.
I hope so, and I will also sayto the people who maybe are
listening and they're thinkingno, it didn't, because the
opposite is, you have, you'reseeing, so much clutter in your
house that you try to declutterand you don't see progress, and
so you end up just beingfrustrated.
(22:13):
And so I just want to normalizethat, because it really can be
its own defeat to try todeclutter and recognize that
you're not functioning optimallyin your space, or you're having
trouble working from home, oryou can't relax, and so you try
(22:33):
to do what you see on TV and onsocial media.
Hey, here's this declutteringtrick, here's the strategy, and
you try it, and either itdoesn't work for you, because
not every strategy works forevery brain type, right,
everything resonates differentlywith people, and also sometimes
the project you pick Declutterthat was worthwhile, but it's
(22:59):
such a small piece within thebig picture that it doesn't add
up to the progress you need tosee, to feel motivated to keep
doing it.
And so just you know, pleasedon't be discouraged when that
happens.
It is about doing small chunksat a time.
(23:20):
Sometimes using a timer ishelpful, but it's also about
trying to focus on one categoryor one area.
So it's not like, oh my gosh,look at that kitchen, I better
do something over there.
Oh, but look at this laundry, Ibetter do that.
And you bounce around fromthing to thing and you do a
(23:41):
little bit from each, butsomehow it never amounts to as
much progress as you want.
Or you see other people havingsuccess with and that can really
cause hardship and then makeyou feel honestly.
Unfortunately, some people endup feeling like a failure and
there can be a downward spiral.
Erica Rawls (23:57):
Yeah, just as our positive energy builds as we
successfully declutter,sometimes negative energy can
build, as these things don'tquite work right so let's walk
through the process for someonethat may be toying with the idea
of getting rid of the oldthings that no longer serve them
.
Yes, yes, Can you walk usthrough?
Sarah Hackenberg (24:16):
that process.
So I would say, the first thingI always recommend is thinking
about the goal, and the goalcould just be my house is
chaotic and I want it to bepeaceful.
But you want to be morespecific.
You want to think, maybe, aboutone room.
I want to sit down at my couchand not have my coffee table
(24:40):
piled high.
Okay, you want to, and howyou're going to feel when that
happens, okay.
Or I want to walk into my kids'playroom and not step on toys,
and so, therefore, we're goingto work with all the family's,
going to work together, andwe're going to get rid of the
toys that our kids don't don'tuse anymore, they've aged out of
.
So you want to get a specificgoal.
(25:02):
Then you want to gather yourtools.
So this is like that's themental.
The practical is, you want togather a trash bag.
You want to gather a coupleboxes for donations, maybe
something for oh, we knowsomeone else who could use this
Maybe a giveaway box Recycling,but you want to have those with
you.
So it's not like, oh, here'ssome trash, let me wander over
(25:23):
there and put it away.
Well then, when you're overthere, you get distracted and
it's 10 minutes till you comeback to your project, so you
want to sort of have everythingready to go, okay, and then I
would say the next thing to keepin mind is start small.
Erica Rawls (25:41):
Okay, so pick a small project.
I'm a Chinese girl, so startingsmall is not easy.
Sarah Hackenberg (25:45):
Yes, it's not easy because you're like all
right, I'm going to go throughmy closet, yeah, but you take
everything out of your closet,you spread it in your bedroom,
you start trying on clothes.
Trying on clothes is exhausting, yeah and so no, not for me.
Okay, okay, yeah and so no.
No, ok, ok, no, but 30, 45, 60minutes of it, which is at least
(26:08):
what you're going to need.
Yeah, you start to get tired,and when you get tired, suddenly
you look around and yourbedroom is a mess because you
haven't dealt with all theclothes.
And then you really are nothappy because you're exhausted,
you're sort of a little grumpybecause not everything fit you
the way you want it to anymoreand you still have to clean up
the mess in your bedroom.
Erica Rawls (26:26):
But, sarah, every fashion trend comes back around.
So you're trying.
You have to convince me, okay,yes, why I need to get rid of my
clothes when I know that youknow what I want to share a
story with you.
The leather trench, oh, thatyou know what I want to share a
story with you?
Okay, the leather trench, oh,and I loved it.
(26:46):
It was burgundy,double-breasted with the pointy
oh colors, not cheap.
I'm sure this was back.
I mean, I had to have beenmaybe 21 and so you spend some
money on it, do you not know?
I wish I had it today, becauseit's back, yes, so now you have
to convince me why just likepeople like me, why we should
throw away our clothes.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:04):
OK, first of all, remember you're not
throwing them away.
You're going to donate them tosomeone.
Donate to someone else, right?
Well, actually, sometimes youshould throw something away.
Don't.
Don't send anything to adonation center that's ripped or
soiled.
Erica Rawls (27:18):
You know.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:18):
So yeah, you want to make sure it's something
that people would legitimatelywant.
Erica Rawls (27:27):
But the whole idea of what if I need it someday is
very powerful.
No, but it comes back.
What if it comes back?
It's very fashion.
You keep your eyes on, you knowwhat's going on in the industry
and you are very fashionable.
I know yes, so it may come back.
Sarah Hackenberg (27:38):
All right, there's a couple ways to think
about it.
Yeah, one is it taking up spacethat you want for the current
trend?
And maybe you have right, youmight have a big enough closet
where it's like, oh, actually,no, I do have a small section of
my closet for the really,really nice pieces, yeah,
special pieces, yeah, and youhave room for it.
(28:01):
Okay, you know what I'm, I'mfine with that, ok.
If you don't have a big enoughcloset, though, or you're like,
yeah, but I keep buying thisother stuff, and then we're
cramming, cramming, crammingthese things, and you can't even
access your clothes anymore,yeah, then I might push a little
bit on that one.
Erica Rawls (28:17):
Yeah, hey.
Ok.
So the people in fashion yes, Ijust saved y'all.
Yes, saved y'all big time.
Absolutely yeah, because I waslike what Get rid of all this
stuff?
Okay, so, special pieces we cankeep, yeah.
Everything else that no longerserves us, we can get rid of.
Yeah, but that, yeah, I wish.
Sarah Hackenberg (28:35):
But the special ones.
I mean that's special.
You could replace it quicklyfor a reasonable cost if you
ever decide you need it or if itcomes back in fashion.
Yeah, if you could do that,throw it away now or donate it
now, okay.
But your leather jacket, whichwas unique and it was a little
(28:57):
more, you spend some money onthat.
Well, that's not something youcould replace quickly for low
cost.
So that sort of hits that marktoo.
Yeah, so there you go, twodifferent permissions to keep it
.
Yeah, if only you had knownback then so?
Erica Rawls (29:10):
did you ever run across someone that, just like
they, really struggled withgetting rid of their items?
Very much like what do yourecommend for that person?
I mean, because I'm thinking atthat point well, you tell us,
yeah, tell us what you would do.
Sarah Hackenberg (29:23):
Well, I do say that you know decluttering and
making choices.
It is, it's a muscle.
You do need to start off.
You don't go in and start.
You know lifting 50 poundweights.
You need to start off with yourfive pound weights or your 10
pound weights, right?
So you want to start with thelow hanging fruit.
You want to start with the easydecisions, so you want to start
with the low hanging fruit.
(29:44):
You want to start with the easydecisions, so this is why you do
start by decluttering a junkdrawer, yeah, and start by, you
know, decluttering cleaningsupplies that are crowding under
your kitchen sink or yourbathroom sink.
Maybe your shoe collection,Because, again, fashion wise,
maybe they're not.
Sir, I need you to stay awayfrom fashion.
I'm talking to the wrong personabout the shoe collection, but
(30:07):
you might be able to realize ohokay, you know these are special
, but you know I can get rid of10 pairs of my.
I have 50 pairs, I don't know.
Erica Rawls (30:19):
I don't know.
Sarah Hackenberg (30:19):
Some people, you know, a shoe collection is
not so emotional, but you dowant to practice on the easy
things first, and so that by thetime you get around to the more
emotional decisions, a coupleof things have happened.
Number one you've practiced andyou're feeling you're getting
better at making decisions.
Number two you're seeingprogress in your space.
You're starting to see the roomthat you've created by letting
(30:43):
go some of those easy things andyou are getting some energy and
some motivation and some goodfeelings from that which.
So then, by the time you arelooking at the more emotional
things, you are more aware ofwhat you're going to gain by
letting some of those things gothe energy, the space that's
(31:04):
allowing you to think about whoyou want to be next, where you
want to go next.
But you have to build up to it.
So I would say start on theeasy things, Okay that's good.
Erica Rawls (31:13):
Start with the easy things.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
So have you ever had someoneyou had to turn away Like you're
, just like you know what?
Sarah Hackenberg (31:29):
this is beyond me.
I have not yet, but that'sabsolutely something I would do.
You know I'm part of two.
There are several nationalorganizations for organizers and
the two that I belong to theacronyms are NAPO and ICD.
They have very strong ethicalstandards, which is so important
to me, and one of the thingsthat's ethical is knowing what
you are and are not capable of,and not doing your client the
(31:53):
disservice of taking on theirjob when you know that you can't
truly serve them in the waythat they need, truly serve them
in the way that they need.
So you know, hoarding disorderis a mental health disorder,
officially at this point andoften so.
There's a scale for that and ifsomeone it's a one to five
(32:15):
scale.
If someone was at a three, four, five level of dealing with
hoarding disorder, that would,for example, example, not be a
client that I would.
I know I cannot serve them asthey would need.
I have done some education inhelping in that way.
But you really need a team ofpeople and you need major family
(32:38):
and friends support, as well asoften a mental health
professional to help this person.
Because, yes, making decisionsand letting go of emotional
things is hard for everybody,but if you're dealing with the
hoarding disorder, it's actuallythings that would not seem like
a big deal to you and me can bevery, very traumatic.
(32:59):
What are the signs?
Because I mean so, if you thinkabout people who are, as a
hoarder, you know, and I havehad clients, when I first meet
them, say, oh, do you think I'ma hoarder?
Or I am a hoarder, and so it iscertainly terminology.
We throw around a lot in oursociety, not too loosely, I
think so.
Yeah, because it does adisservice to the people who are
(33:21):
truly suffering under thedisorder.
So one of the things to beaware of is if you have
sometimes stacks of newspapersor stacks of coupons or stacks
of magazines that you can't getrid of.
Erica Rawls (33:41):
Someone just cringed right now.
Sarah Hackenberg (33:43):
Yeah, and when I say stacks, it's not like a
stack beside your coffee, yourcouch, that at some point you're
going to go through, it's thatit's really almost compulsive
where your home is starting tobe filled with stacks and stacks
of, for example, magazines, toa point where it's maybe very
(34:04):
difficult to get in and out ofrooms.
Oh wow, it's starting to be asafety hazard.
Yeah, and you may understandthat your house is crowded and
still, if someone, awell-meaning friend or family
member, says, hey, you know what, let me just take these to the
recycling for you so that I canhelp clear out some space in
this room, you won't be able tolet it go.
(34:25):
It will be a traumatic thing tolet that go.
Erica Rawls (34:32):
So you're walking in the house, you see this.
You're like, oh, this is beyondme.
Do you have services that youoffer as a backup?
Sarah Hackenberg (34:40):
Thankfully, there are multiple organizers in
our area and I always try toreach out to as many as possible
because one what I appreciateabout organizers is the same
thing as educators.
We have a abundance mindset.
We know that the need is thereand there is business and need
for all of us and, to my way ofthinking, the more organizers I
(35:03):
know, the better I can serve myclients.
When I'm not the right personor I don't have room in my
schedule, I can recommendsomeone else.
I can recommend someone whospecializes perhaps in working
with people with hoardingdisorder, or have more, a bigger
team available if they'rehelping someone clear out and
they have a time limit.
(35:23):
So absolutely always want to berecommending someone else if
they would.
Erica Rawls (35:27):
So you never go in the home and say, oh, you have a
hoarding disorder.
You may want to get in contactwith X.
That's not your lane at all.
You're just like.
Hey, I may know of anotherorganizer that'd be able to
serve you better organizer thatbe able to serve you better.
Sarah Hackenberg (35:49):
I have never yet walked into a home and but
it would absolutely be somethingI would take seriously to think
about.
Can I really help this personnow that I see their conditions?
Can I help them as asolopreneur is working on my own
or not?
And if I can, I need to behonest with myself.
If I can't help them, then I amgoing to refer them to someone
(36:11):
else.
Erica Rawls (36:11):
Yeah, so Gen Z's and millennials are talking
about minimalists.
I'm a minimalist.
Can we define that?
What does that?
Sarah Hackenberg (36:20):
mean.
So minimalism is doing withless right, and I think it's so
interesting.
On one end of the scale, when Isay I'm an organizer, people
think about Quarters, the TVshow and on the other end, it's
Marie Kondo who I think standsout to people as the minimalist,
the one who is.
(36:41):
You know, hold it, does itspark joy?
And if the answer is no, let itgo.
And in many of her books shedoes advocate for less is
probably more.
And so people are worried thatthey're going to hire me and I'm
going to make them get rid ofall their stuff because I think
(37:02):
the best thing is minimalism andthe truth is I don't think
there is.
The only way to be organized isto be a minimalist.
I have a friend we talkregularly about.
My style is actually a littlemore minimal and hers is more on
the maximal side.
But as long as you can accesswhat you enjoy, as long as your
(37:23):
collections, you can view themso that you're truly enjoying
them.
If you want more things, that'sfine.
I'm only here to help you makesure you know what's really
important to you and make thosechoices and reconsider if the
things you've just been hangingon to for years or decades
(37:43):
sometimes is still thatimportant to you?
And then the things that wedecide together are important to
you.
Make sure they're optimallystored in your home so that you
can access and enjoy them.
Ok, and so I don't thinkminimalism is necessarily the
answer to not being organized.
Erica Rawls (38:02):
So meaning one of everything Is that a definition
of a minimalist Like you onlyhave one item, and how would you
?
Sarah Hackenberg (38:10):
That's interesting.
I guess a minimalist.
Honestly, I think it's not evenhaving one of everything, it's
having not all the things.
You don't even need to have onething in every category, right?
Not all the things.
You don't even need to have onething in every category, right?
You can think I'm trying tothink of a good example as far
as like a decor kind of thing.
Erica Rawls (38:31):
Hey, I need to take two seconds to interrupt this
wonderful show that you'rewatching.
I run a real estate businessand the way we fund this podcast
is through that business, theErica Ross team.
I would love it if you wouldjust give us one opportunity to
service your real estate needs,whether you are in central PA or
around the entire world.
Think of us first, so we canhelp you.
(38:51):
Now back to the show.
Sarah Hackenberg (38:52):
So, like pillows you know it's not
necessarily a minimalist willonly have one pillow, right.
On the other hand, throwblankets Maybe they have decided
I don't even need one throwblanket.
So it's really consideringeverything that society tells me
we need and I should buy, justsort of rejecting that idea and
(39:16):
saying I don't need to buyeverything.
And air fryers, right, tons ofkitchens have those.
Now Maybe a minimalist is ableto say not only do I not need to
have two, because I got one ona great discount at Costco and I
have it in case the first onebreaks.
The minimalist would sayactually I don't need an air
(39:37):
fryer at all because the way Icook doesn't connect to an air
fryer, and so I'm just going toreject that idea as the current
trend that everyone's supposedto buy Right, and in that way I
do appreciate minimalism as acurrent approach to a
consumerism.
Yeah Is just saying no.
It's not always just becauseI'm being advertised to that I
(40:01):
should buy it to keep up with myneighbor or who.
Erica Rawls (40:04):
I see, that's what I was going to say.
So for my generation, they'rechoosing not to keep up with the
Joneses, right?
So if you're a minimalist,you're like, no, I don't need it
.
Yeah, do I really, you know, doI really need it?
Right?
Sarah Hackenberg (40:15):
if not, then I'm just gonna let it go and I
applaud that and I think that'sa valuable attitude.
Whatever you call it, I thinkthat's really a valuable way to
look at things.
Erica Rawls (40:23):
So, sarah, how can someone get in?
Sarah Hackenberg (40:24):
contact with you.
So my website is Grace andCycles.
Yes, we were just talking, Iknow, it's just so easy to talk
with you.
So, grace, because I know thatwe all need a little extra help,
we all need some grace,sometimes in different cycles of
our life.
So, grace and Cycles is the nameof my company,
(40:45):
graceandcyclescom, is my websiteand I'm on LinkedIn and
Instagram and Facebook.
Yeah, so I always tell peopleI'm happy to talk through, you
know, do a free phoneconsultation, talk about where
they're at and what they'retrying to achieve and sometimes
I do what they're trying toachieve and sometimes I do
because I had a background ineducation really try to share.
(41:12):
A lot of my posts areeducational just trying to
either, you know, changemindsets or change attitudes
that maybe are hurtful or nothelpful to your own process.
Give tips.
So if people I want to empowerpeople to make the choices about
the things in their life sothat they are happy where
they're at and can envision whatthey want for themselves next,
(41:33):
and if I can do that with just afew tips that spark something
for you, wonderful.
If you want a little bit morehelp and want to work with me,
then I'm also happy to do that.
Erica Rawls (41:43):
So, yeah, that's awesome.
Who knew talking about clutterwould go so deep and be so good?
Sarah Hackenberg (41:49):
Well, I know it because, yeah, you seem to
always bring this out on yourguests.
Erica Rawls (41:55):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Yes, it was a pleasure havingcoffee with you too.
Okay, y'all, until next time,if you enjoyed this.
I need you to do me a favor.
I need you to subscribe Excuseme, I got excited.
Subscribe, like, share and,most of all, please comment,
because I'm looking forward tomeeting you in the comments.
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