March 5, 2024 • 62 mins
In this inspiring conversation, Dr. Anna Stumpf sits down with Josh Brammer, an entrepreneur, growth strategist, Storybrand Guide, and founder of Hello Lantern. Josh shares his profound journey of self-discovery, navigating the turbulent waters of entrepreneurship and finding his true "sweet spot."
From his beginnings in youth ministry to building a successful marketing agency, Josh's career has been marked by a relentless pursuit of clarity and impact. He vulnerably recounts the identity crisis that led him to question his passion for marketing and embark on a transformative path of exploration.
Through candid insights and hard-won wisdom, Josh offers invaluable guidance for professionals at any stage seeking to unlock their potential, reignite their joy, and align their work with their deepest values. His story serves as a powerful reminder that true fulfillment often requires courage, self-awareness, and a willingness to pivot – even when it means walking away from apparent success.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, creative professional, or simply seeking greater meaning in your work, this episode will inspire you to embrace your unique gifts and forge a path that sparks genuine joy and unlocks your full potential.
Episode Quote: "The only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking. Don't settle." - Steve Jobs
Collective Challenge: Reflect on your current professional role or business. Identify one aspect that aligns with your strengths, interests, and passion – your "sweet spot." Commit to focusing your energy on nurturing and expanding that aspect over the next week. Notice how it impacts your overall sense of fulfillment and joy. OR identify one aspect of your professional life where you may feel stuck or unfulfilled. Take one small, actionable step towards addressing this area. This could be as simple as scheduling a conversation with a mentor, enrolling in a short online course to develop a skill you're passionate about, or dedicating time to reflect on your career goals and writing them down. This challenge encourages you to take proactive steps towards personal and professional development, fostering a sense of progress and self-awareness.
Show Notes:
0:00 - 3:35: Introduction, quote from Steve Jobs
3:35 - 13:55: Josh's background and pivot from agency to consulting business
13:55 - 22:45: Discovering his "sweet spot" and mission of unlocking potential and sparking joy
22:45 - 30:10: Balancing work with personal life, managing scope creep
30:10 - 37:20: Biggest career challenge - starting his own business
37:20 - 41:25: The importance of narrowing focus for creatives
41:25 - 47:45: Keeping a narrow focus, avoiding shiny objects
47:45 - 54:10: Collaborating with a collective group, importance of trust
54:10 - 59:02: Josh's family life, final thoughts
Music by Music Unlimited from Pixabay
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anna Stumpf (00:07):
Welcome to collective energy conversations,
your inspiration for personaland professional growth in mid
career. I'm Dr. Anna stump YourGuide to inspiring stories from
a variety of professionals, acollective energy, we believe in
the transformative power ofconnections and shared
experiences. Each week we delveinto narratives that spark
confidence and self awareness.
Join us as we elevate our growththrough the power of shared
(00:30):
stories.
Welcome back, I'm excited tobring you this episode with Josh
Brammer, who is been introducedto me and I've had interactions
with because he is a story brandcertified guide. If you're not
familiar with Donald Millerstory, brand framework output
links in the show notes for you.
But Josh has his own business.
(00:53):
He's had lanturn, for 13 years,almost 14, and I spoke with him
a little over a year ago, on apossible project. And he told me
at the time, I really just don'tlove this part of owning a
business. And I think I'm gonnamake a pivot. So I was very
excited to get back in touchwith him, asked him to come on
(01:14):
the show, hear what his pivotwas, and kind of what his key
learnings and takeaways are fromthat. So I'm very thrilled to
bring you he's so vulnerable andso great at giving so many good
examples, a story brand, right?
That's what they do. But I thinkone of my favorite things about
this episode is just somebodywho from the outside looks like
they have reached what the restof us are trying to get. And
(01:35):
then he just kind of says, Yeah,pick up my head as a pull back
from that and find more workthat is directly related to what
brings me joy. So I'm excitedfor you to hear from him. But as
always, I like to kick off eachepisode with a quote that kind
of encapsulates the theme ofwe're going to talk about, and
to quote, another incrediblestrategic creative is Steve
(01:58):
Jobs. And the quote is, the onlyway to do great work is to love
what you do. And if you haven'tnot found that yet, keep
looking, don't settle. With thatin mind, please hear from Josh
Brammer, do the last time youand I had a conversation, a zoom
call, it's been a little over ayear ago, year and a half. And
(02:20):
you had learned something reallyimportant about yourself
with your agency and kind of thepivot you made. So walk me
through all the things if youwould, what, what I realized as
I was in marketing for years,for almost 15 years, is that
there was so much of marketingthat just confuses business.
(02:47):
It's almost like this black boxthat people feel like they need
to and they have to and theyshould. And there's just so much
around that that people don'tknow how to kind of interact
with it.
It's kind of like career in thatspace, though. You been in
marketing strategy andeverything since you graduated
(03:07):
college, right? Yeah. After Ipivoted out of ministry, there
was a there was a, you know,probably six year college slash
graduating that was in youthministry. But it was still in
communications. And so I was inmarketing, nonprofit
communications and selling Jesuswas, you know, I was like, I was
(03:31):
still introducing a product, itjust happened to write
Josh Brammer (03:35):
a very old product, and trying to convince
people what they need, like theythink they have a problem.
That's not really your problem.
That's the That's the joke thatI often make is my marketing
career started by trying to getseventh graders interested in a
Jewish carpenter. So ever sincethen, my products have been
easier to sell. Moving into thestrategic piece and working in
like, I mean, we're joking aboutpeople not understanding their
(03:58):
problem, like they come and theythink they have this problem,
and they're not getting revenue,they're not getting this and
they always want to pull thosemarketing shiny object levers.
And you'd been in that space fora long time of like being able
to see things people couldn'tsee. Right. And that's kind of
what is that what helped youevolve into starting your own
agency? I'll just I'll tell thestory, because this is the this
(04:21):
is the plot. Okay. I left myagency out of frustration with
seeing that there were smallerbusinesses that were able to be
served by either the price orthe size of the team, and so I
thought there's probably animbler way to help people. And
I wanted to solve that problem.
(04:44):
So I thought that I'd solve itas a consultant.
I went out and started my owncompany and about three months
went by and people said, Josh,we like you but we don't know
what you're saying and selling.
We don't know what to buy fromyou.
And the sales weren't happening.
And so I turned to storebrand,which I'd already use the
(05:07):
toolkit, I just decided to divein and become certified in it.
And I became, I began to usethat as the box that I was
delivering. So I was stilldelivering the same style of
consulting. And I usedcopywriting as the box that
people could raise their handand say, I'm not good with
words, I will get your help. Sothe consulting the strategy, the
(05:31):
things that are ambiguous, I wasable to put it inside of the box
of we are going to write wordsfor you.
Anna Stumpf (05:39):
And does it. I feel like that, looking at what you
do copyright messaging, clarity,all that I think that helps us
as humans, right. Like, I'm inthe business of helping people
with emotional intelligence.
Like, I feel like, there's sucha parallel of the clarity and
the identifying the problem andhow you're going to be the guy,
(05:59):
you know, the solution that youbring. And there's so much
buzzword right now, likefiguring out or by telling their
story and their personal brand.
And all of that is becoming alittle convoluted. But I do
think that what you do lendsitself not only to an
entrepreneur or small business,but just to be better
(06:22):
communicators, like you said,originally. Yeah,
Josh Brammer (06:26):
yeah. And so that becomes the plot. So then I'll
fast forward to last year, therewas this moment where I got
frustrated with the agency andthe business that I had built.
And I had a identity crisis. AndI said publicly in front of, you
(06:46):
know, 300 other marketers on astage at a conference, I don't
think I like marketing. I don'tknow if I like marketing
anymore. I don't know if I wantto be a marketer. And so I went
on a journey over the last yearto really explore what was it
about the things that I like todo? What what are the
superpowers that I bring? Whendoes the client feel the most
(07:08):
energy from me. And what I foundis, I pushed away and tried to
do business coaching for about ayear, I did some consulting, I
did a little bit of marketing.
And what ended up happening is,I came back into the marketing
ring, because there's a momentin which the start of marketing
is the is where the clarity hasto happen. And the clarity is
(07:35):
what the aha moment is what I'maddicted to, that marketing
becomes the doorway that peopleneed to walk through. It's just
in a different way than how Iwas delivering it in the agency.
At the end of the day, it'sclarity, it's communication,
it's sticking to the value andthe problems that you're
(07:56):
solving, right. But it's easiestfor me to help people have the
impact that they're looking for.
If I stay in the marketing rangeversus in like a business
coaching consulting ring.
Anna Stumpf (08:09):
I mean, this is a big discovery for yourself,
because you had a verysuccessful agency, you had
employees, you had a reputation,you had a client base, you had
gotten successful by otherpeople's definitions. But you
have this moment where you'relike, I don't I don't like the
busyness or the business of whatI'm doing. And then how do you
(08:33):
how do you walk through that?
Like, how did you peel back allof the just like reality of what
you were in and get to the cruxof like this, I need to focus on
this one small area?
Josh Brammer (08:48):
Well, it was complicated, or at least it felt
complicated.
Anna Stumpf (08:52):
Well, yeah, I would think it'd have to be
Josh Brammer (08:54):
the challenge that I see. And this is the space
that I help other entrepreneursnow is there's this identity
crisis, where if you are theservice provider, and you're the
decision maker, and you're thefinance team, and you're the
everything, there's a whole bigball of wax tied up together,
(09:15):
and on untangling that knot ofidentity. And value is very,
very complicated. What I foundis there's a healthy balance
that you have to strike as anexpert where you can't be doing
hard, like, you know, quantumphysics math at all times, you
(09:35):
just will burn out. And so partof the challenge that I found as
I was transitioning out of theagency model is I had basically
built a system in which becauseof distractions because of not
choosing. I created a systemthat was overly complicated and
(09:56):
then I was stuck inside of thatsystem and the real moment I was
having was the sales, themarketing, the finance, all the
different pressures that happeninside of every business, we're
all hitting at the same time indifferent ways. And so it was
causing this, this feeling oflike, you know this, there's
smoke in in the engine, andsomething's not something's not
(10:21):
hitting right. And so for me, Ihad to decide to pivot out of
the agency, I sold it to anothergroup that that liked certain
pieces of what I didn't like,just so that it was kind of an
escape hatch for me to say, Ineed to get out of this. And I
need to like, take time to getout of the smoke and let the
smoke clear, so that I canfigure out what roles I want to
(10:44):
live in, I want to work in. Andwhat I find is, the place that
I'm helping people now is, it'sa moment I've experienced
multiple times over the last 10years, it's the solopreneur, I'm
taking all the burden of thebusiness on myself. But because
of that you're wearing like 16different hats. And what you
(11:09):
have to do as a solopreneur asan expert, is you have to decide
what roles you're really strongin and you can do repeatedly.
And you have to learn, eitheryou're going to delete or
delegate other pieces of thebusiness. And that either means
you have to really streamlineyour service and really focus do
(11:30):
less, or you do less and hirepeople for the other pieces,
which then suddenly makes youeither have contractors or a
small team or you know, whetherthey're they're part time or
full time anything like that thepressure of growing a small
business is often it comes backto that question of clarity.
(11:50):
What problem am I solving forcustomers? How am I going to
find the customers? So there'sall this sales, marketing,
finance delivery stuff thatsneaks up on you at every turn,
as a service provider? I help inthat, in that mess. That right
find ourselves in? It
Anna Stumpf (12:08):
is messy, and it's necessary at a certain level,
Josh Brammer (12:12):
right? Yeah. Can I give you an example? Absolutely.
I was having a conversation in,in a community of marketers. And
somebody said, What do you say,when you when people ask you who
your target audiences. So I gavehim an example of what I say
now. And I gave him an exampleof what I said in the agency.
(12:33):
And I was having this momentwhere I was realizing that's a
really challenging question. Andfor most of the people that I
interact with, that are under amillion dollars in revenue, they
are terrified of staking a claimto a specific tight target
audience. They are afraid ofniching they may have heard
(12:53):
that, you know, you know, richesare in the niches or whatever
the phrase is. But there's thismoment when you feel terrified
to cut off opportunity. And theperson who's asking the question
said, Well, here's what I'msaying today. And what they said
was, I help b2b and b2ccompanies that need digital
(13:17):
marketing. And then you know,they had a little trail there.
And I stopped a thought you justtried to lasso the most amount
of companies, right. And I hadno idea who you actually are
talking about. And it's thenatural reaction. That's why I
think a lot of small businessesactually fail is because they
(13:38):
never last. So a very tightcircle of who they can help and
how they can help. And becauseof that, your processes and your
people and your staffing and allof the things inside of the
business to deliver value getexponentially bigger, or they
feel like they need to getbigger. And at the same time you
(14:00):
have the friction of if youdon't choose, then how are you
ever going to focus yourmarketing with limited
resources? How are you evergoing to focus your sales and
actually have repeatableconversations that feel valuable
and feel like you're an expert.
And so I look at I have thispost it note on my desk that
says nice for now. Because whatmost of us need to do in a
business is pick something andwork on it and try it on. See if
(14:23):
that fits, see if it works. It'sokay to change your mind but
it's not okay to not decide.
They're not deciding is thedeath of small business in my
opinion.
Anna Stumpf (14:38):
So talk about this experience that you've had this
last couple of years from apersonal perspective, because I
would imagine if you are goingthrough the motions wearing
yourself out trying to figureout what is it that's not
feeling right like where am Inot getting fulfilled and why do
I not love this? Like I'veworked really hard to get here
(14:58):
and I love it. How does thatpresent itself? Your father,
your husband, like you have alot in your personal life? Like
how do you find that balance?
And how do you go through thatprofessional? You know, cocoon
and then reemergence? And likethat. Where's the balance? And
(15:18):
the cost? I guess? Yeah.
Josh Brammer (15:22):
I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't think about
the cost, to their family, totheir relationships, around a
lot of this, this indecision andthis lack of clarity. What I
have found is, like, it's, itwasn't uncommon for me to be
noodling on math on a Fridaynight, while I should be
(15:45):
relaxing. Now, that's not to saythat sometimes inspiration
doesn't hit when you're not, youknow, in your work environment.
But if you're constantlythinking about other things,
when you're trying to play,catch, or go to the park, or you
know, see a movie, whatever thethings that you're trying to do,
I find that business and your,your career and the unsettled
(16:11):
challenge, it's like it, it waslike I was dragging those chains
from, like, I watched aChristmas carol with my family
this this winter. And like whenOh, Marley's go. So this
character has all of thesechains, dragging him down, and
it was all have this tension.
And I feel like sometimes, as anentrepreneur, all of these
(16:33):
chains will drag on you. And youjust constantly have more and
more indecision, more and morethings that are on your plate.
And what happens is, it reallyimpacted myself and I would get
through multiple stages of I waslike, you know, whether it was
like continual burnout, or justfeeling that, that drag that
friction, and it would reallymake it so that I couldn't
(16:58):
unplug. You feel that nag whereyou're like, Hey, I'm gonna
check email, I'm gonna checkslack, I'm gonna do these
things. And I heard this advice.
It was saying, if you stop andcheck your email, if you stop
and check slack, you might aswell go back to your closet and
like put a suit and tie on.
Because you mentally are nolonger in family mode, you got
(17:21):
to work mode. And while most ofus don't think in those terms,
and most of us don't have to,like put on a tie every day,
it's, it's a mental image thathelped me, because I found that
it was, it was better for me totry to decide what I needed to
do, and simplify the things thatI allow it to happen in my work
(17:48):
life, so that it doesn't creepup and take over the rest of
everything. And I'm a veryimaginative person. You know,
I've been diagnosed with ADHD, Ifind that the creativity and the
spark that happens sometimes isthe superpower that I have. But
if I don't create strongboundaries for that, then the
(18:11):
business will just constantlychase me around. And it's like,
it's setting fires wherever Igo. Yeah. And tivity will, will
just, you know, eat away at mein a way that's not healthy.
Well,
Anna Stumpf (18:25):
it had to be what the friction you are feeling
when you had your Realization?
Because I wouldn't, I'm guessingright? Like those chains get
heavier and heavier. But you youbuild muscle to learn how to
drag them. Right, you findyourself going through those
motions. And I would imaginethat, in addition to some of
like, what you were feelingpersonally, I would think your
(18:45):
creativity was stifled a littlebit being absolutely, you know,
founder, entrepreneur employermode, where that's not really
where you thrive as much.
Josh Brammer (18:58):
Right? Yeah. And part of the part of the self
discovery that I had to do wasrealize I'll use IKEA as the
example. Often when you when youthink about IKEA, you could go
through the whole store and say,Hey, everything in here fits in
a box and you can put ittogether. And their stuff is
(19:19):
pretty simple when you thinkabout it from a product
standpoint. But when you walkthrough the store, you can see
so many different ways in whichthey put it together and the
ways in which they could bring aroom to life. And I read a quote
once when I was walking intoIKEA that I forget the direct
quote, but it said basically,that boundaries and lines are
(19:40):
what allow creativity to happen.
And what I had to learn and thisis the hard part for me about
the last 10 years is there arecertain roles that I am good at
and I thrive in. And there areother roles that creep up as you
try to grow and expand thebusiness. And the common path
for a lot of people is you do arole and you get skilled at it,
(20:04):
and then you get promoted out ofyour sweet spot. And then the
next stage becomes a managerrole or a director role, or
whatever it is. And as a smallbusiness owner, the reason I
sold my agency is because I hadcreated a recruiting and sales
role for myself. And I was nolonger in a creative zone. And
(20:24):
because of that, it's like I waswithout like water and sunlight,
and I was just wilting as aperson. Have you ever
encountered the book by MarieKondo about the picking up and
organizing and you pick up anobject and you ask Does it spark
joy? Yes. And I read that book,and I had already written a
(20:47):
personal mission statement thatwas talking about sparking joy,
the two pieces of my personalmission statement are Unlocking
Potential and sparking joy. Andwhat I have found, personally,
is that there is a sweet spotfor a person where their natural
interests, their natural skills,and then the piece that was
(21:09):
missing for me for years, wasthinking about the fact that the
business itself is a system. Andthen the leadership of that
business is in the job ofdeciding how to keep the system
systematic. But most businesseshave a very human component to
it. So I what I find is I haveto keep like a thermometer on
(21:35):
is, are the things that I'mdoing, the way that I'm showing
up the way that I'm interactingwith clients or with the team or
with my work, is it actuallyunlocking more potential in my
own skills and my own interest?
And at the same time, is itsparking joy? Are people better
(21:57):
off because I'm doing what I'mdoing?
Anna Stumpf (22:01):
And a greater a greater people, right, not just
the ones in front of you, or theones working for you. But yeah,
Josh Brammer (22:08):
so that fundamentally connected some
dots for me that I had beencurious about for 10 years. But
in the next phase of what I'mbuilding within lantern, it's
much more about helping peoplefind and stay in their sweet
spot, then it is about businessgrowth. Because I think a lot of
(22:31):
people grow at the sake of self.
And they just think if I just gohire more people, if I just go
make more sales, if I just getmore clients as more and more
and more. I'm like, Yeah, butwhat about the people that are
in the system that aredelivering the value, they need
to be in their sweet spot?
Anna Stumpf (22:50):
Alongside your career technology's ramped up
right now we're in like,exponential tech. And I think in
some ways, you've mentioned alot of systems and processes and
things within the business. Andsometimes we can get fooled into
thinking, Oh, I can automatethat. Or I can, you know, do
(23:10):
this, or I can do that. And canyou talk a little bit about
like, in my mind, sometimesthat's a fallacy. Like somebody
still has to manage a lot ofthat and decide on a lot of
that. And so is it a tripwirethat is healthy? Or does it
still have to be managed, in away like when you look at what's
coming, because you've had avery robust career alongside the
(23:34):
growth of technology? And I'mjust curious what your thoughts
and feelings are on that interms of the things you've been
talking about, as well, liketaking a look at a business
owner or an entrepreneur? Whatkind of a help or hindrance I
think this automation can be.
Josh Brammer (23:51):
It's one that I'm exploring right now, because I'm
the way that AI has shown up ina new way. Lots of people are
experiencing it at scale in away that they they didn't a
couple of years ago.
Anna Stumpf (24:07):
Or right, six months, I can surpass
Josh Brammer (24:12):
in part of what I am, what I am exploring, and
what I am experiencing, is Icall it both and can we layer
technology and help us but youhave to realize that speed is
not the only metric. More is notthe only metric. And so what I'm
(24:41):
looking at as I approach it ishow do we how do we use
technology as a collaborator,not as a replacement.
Anna Stumpf (24:50):
Right? And I would imagine, to take something
you've already established rightand magnify it, but not try and
replace Place, the organicgrowth of an individual and
their strategy and their righteye. I think people are leaning
on it for a lot of things thatthey need to personally go
(25:11):
through. I worry about that,like, I worry, we're not as
collaborative and connected as asociety's we should be. And then
all of a sudden, now we're gonnaall have our artificial
intelligence and our bot and ourpersonalization. And I think,
oh, no, that's not what we needto be doing right now. But
Josh Brammer (25:32):
right. I'll give you a practical example. When I
started my agency, there werethings that I needed to do. That
required me to sit down with acup of coffee and think about
something for an hour and a halfor two hours. And there are
(25:55):
technologies now where I canhave a conversation like we're
having right now. I can feed itinto AI, and I can get insights.
And the insights are good enoughthat it could cut an hour out of
my thinking time. No one where Istill feel that humans need to
(26:17):
be involved in that we can stillput people in their sweet spot
is giving people the time tostill have the thinking and
still think through the curationof it. Are these the right
thoughts? Are these the rightconnections, because in its
current reality, AI is notmaking the connections for my
(26:39):
clients that they need me tomake. There's a lot of thinking
that needs to still go into it.
And so I view it as acollaborator, it's like having
an extra. Sometimes inmarketing, we joke that it's
like having a very caffeinatedintern that can do a lot of
brainstorming for you. Right.
But it doesn't mean that you'rereplacing entire roles or
(27:02):
people, you just have a you havea new thinking partner inside of
that, and giving space to thinkthrough that and react to that.
But it's created moreopportunity for my business in
the last year. It has allowed meto deliver more value to my
customers, but we still have tokeep a very human listening
(27:26):
centric, decision centric,strategic slant to the types of
ways that we're using it, we'renot automating it completely.
We're using it to speed up thethe thinking process for for our
Anna Stumpf (27:39):
clients, right?
Which I think is wildlyimportant. So I asked you about
this early and you've mentionedthat a couple times, you are a
story brand guide. And honestly,meeting you and listening to you
in a workshop is what introducedstory brand to me. How did you
find it?
Josh Brammer (28:02):
How did I find storebrand?
Anna Stumpf (28:03):
Did you read the book? Did you like stumble
across it? Like how did youhave?
Josh Brammer (28:08):
The honest answer is I found story brand because I
was on a old email list fromDonald Miller from downloading
an old company that he had wherehe ran a productivity workshop
and he added like a journal,like a productivity journal. I
(28:29):
downloaded that in the in thedepths of my basement while I
was working from home on a on aday when I was stressed out and
trying to figure out how to likemake, you know, make projects
work. And then a couple yearslater, Don pivoted into story
brand and I ended up on hisemail list. And he started to
(28:52):
share the ideas and the conceptsand because I had felt these
tubs of the problems that he wasdescribing, I started getting
emails and I told somebody at myI was working in a different
company I've been through threecompanies by the time that I got
the emails about storebrand andyou know trying on different
roles tried different approachesto marketing and then I got
(29:15):
these emails that said come toNashville come to this workshop
and we will explain how storycan make your marketing easier.
And I
Anna Stumpf (29:23):
did that was like eight years ago seven Yeah,
yeah, eight
Josh Brammer (29:27):
years ago I told my boss I said I think that we
have these problems. I think weshould go to this workshop and
see what we can learn. And wedid and I've been using it ever
since.
Anna Stumpf (29:39):
See go to the workshop and that's just the
like, understand story brand.
And then you decide I'm gonnaget certified in this. I'm gonna
dive I want more. Is that howyou got so or was that before
they even had certifications?
When I
Josh Brammer (29:55):
went to the first workshop, there was no
certification right? There wasnot even To book there was a
workshop. And we went to theworkshop and I have the binder
in my closet. And at theworkshop, there were concepts
and there were, you know, theelements that became the the
elements have been there.
Throughout that there's aninteresting piece because this
(30:18):
is one of the things that Iadmire about storebrand. And the
way that they have built, builtthat business, they took
something that they knew was wasworking in was helpful, and they
took it out into the wild. Andthen they continued to iterate
on it and sharpen it and getfeedback. And what I see for a
(30:38):
lot of businesses is they theygo out, and they act like their
thing is the best in the world.
And then they never givethemselves time to sharpen it.
Right? So I tell a lot of peoplethey need to do like what store
your brand did, they take itout, they do a workshop, they
see if you get feedback from theworkshop, if the workshop works,
(31:00):
then start to add otherelements, other products, other
ways to do it. And so that'sbeen a model for how I have
explained for a lot of thebusiness that that I helped
market and consult with, becausepeople want to get it. It's like
we want to be 40. Before we're40. We like just graduated from
college, but we expect ourselvesto be really far down the road
(31:23):
with a lot of proven trackrecord of success.
Anna Stumpf (31:26):
Yeah, and as you say that I'm sitting here,
reflect on what you've sharedtoday. And everything that you
have really been, like loyal tofiguring out for other people or
things you've gone throughyourself. Like there's really,
that's I think your superpoweris, wait a minute, I know what
this feels like, wait a minute,I've been in this fog before,
(31:47):
wait a minute, I've smelled thesmoke. And other people are too
let me help them figure thatout. That has to feel incredibly
validating for you to know thatyou've taken these chances. And
you've, you know, been throughsome really hard, hard things.
But then you've risen to a levelof success, success, and then
(32:10):
made some choices like this iswhat's best. And it may not be
what's best for everybody. But Inow know what this looks like
and feels like and I know whatthese forks in the road are
these intersections are going tobe and I can help be your guide
for that. I mean, that has tofeel really validated to look in
the rearview mirror and go, Aha,that all happened. So I could be
(32:31):
here. And I think there are alot of people I say our age, I
think you're lying to me. Butthere are a lot of people out
there in their career thathaven't gotten to that place
yet. So what kind of advice doyou have for people who do have
a level of experience and askill they just aren't
comfortable with? Being able tooffer that like what what does a
(32:53):
person have to go through? Maybenot everybody should right?
Maybe not everybody should tryand figure that out for
themselves? But like, what kindof artifacts do you look for in
your life? For what kind offeeling is it that you get that
you think I have something hereand I'm not sure what to do with
it? Or I'm ready for somethingelse. I just don't know what it
is. One
Josh Brammer (33:13):
thing that has been helpful for me is the
personal assessments that helpedme understand the way that I
show up naturally the way that Ithink things like
StrengthsFinder was huge for me10 years ago. And now there are
(33:34):
things like the the six workinggeniuses. And what I find is
there's a combination of factorsfor different people in their
career. I strongly believe thatnot everybody is
entrepreneurial, in a way thatthey should start something and
(33:54):
go it alone. There are manypeople who are great team
players, but they need somebodywho is either the visionary or
they've got the, you know theskills of wonder or invention.
They're thinking and new novelways about approaching problems.
(34:14):
But I have found that for me,there's this tension point. And
I started to write a book aboutit. The book is currently in a
draft not not being worked on,because I'm gaining life
experience working with clientsto validate if the model is
still something worth sharing.
But I'll share the concept ofthe model. For most of us. If
we're a service based expert,whether we're a consultant, a
(34:41):
coach, a creative there's thispoint where if you imagine like
a big map right now you aresitting on the start of the map
today. You've got a certainamount of experiences and
skills. You've got someinterests some innate curiosity.
The challenge becomes what doyou do today to continue to
(35:02):
build those skills? So if youimagine there's like a lover of
building skills, as you buildskills, your experience line
continues, like you keep movingthe.on The map because your
experience happens. The questionthat I have had been pondering
for a couple years now is, howdo we help somebody build their
(35:24):
skills and experience, butthey're also exploring different
paths on the map. And justbecause you explore path doesn't
mean that it's the right fit foryou, you have to test it on, you
have to say, Does this unlockpotential? Does this spread joy?
does this provide a meaningfulexperience for me and for the
(35:45):
customer that I'm that I'mhelping in a business situation.
And there were a lot of pathsthat I took that feel like that
ends. But I continued to goalong the map. And so, you know,
remember, in Indiana Jones, whenyou've got this, you know, this
airplane, and it's got this bigred line? Well, it looks like
(36:07):
he's going in the rightdirection, he knows exactly
where he's going. It doesn'tfeel like that when you're the
person in charge of deciding. Itfeels like you're lost in the
woods. So the the factors that Ilook at are, how do you show up
with the skills and theexperiences and the things that
(36:28):
you're doing? But how do youserve someone in a way that is
valuable to them, but you alsoget paid to build your skills.
And that's what it comes downto, you have to decide, you're
just going to decide how you'regoing to show up. So I tell
people, I'm like, decide for thenext six months? How are you
going to show up for six months,then evaluate it? Because it
(36:49):
might be a different role. Itmight be a different industry,
it might be a different company.
There's lots of factors. But atthe end of the day, it's about
consistency. It's about showingup. You show up and then you
decide was that valuable to meand to others and wasn't
meaningful to me and others. Andto me, that's where you find
(37:10):
your sweet spot.
Anna Stumpf (37:11):
What do you say to people who aren't quite there,
like aren't quite ready to showup? We're not sure how they
would show up. I've loved that.
You mentioned assessments, arethere books, or podcasts or
things that you would recommendto people that are out there, I
think about like a there's a lotof Gen Xers and a lot of people
out there that have all of theseskill sets, they just are
conditioned over time orupbringing or culture or things
(37:33):
look like the I don't know thatI can do that. Like I Clifton
Strengths. My number one iscommunication. So I think we
should all be talking to eachother. I think that's when we
learn more about ourselves, andabout what possibilities are But
what advice do you have forpeople in the pre show up stage.
Like for research in
Josh Brammer (37:57):
my, in my journey, I needed to explore some things
with career counselors. I wentto a career counselor when I in
a former life, I was a youthpastor doing communications. And
as I exited ministry, I neededto do a lot of soul searching.
So there were books like DanMiller, how to add a book years
(38:19):
ago called 48 days to the workthat you love. I went to a
career counselor who gave mesome assessments. And it helped
because what it said is, you maylike things like this, and you
may like things like that. Butwhat it confirmed to me is there
is not a single choice. Thereare types of opportunities that
(38:41):
feel more natural to me. At thetime, as an example, I was told
you could go sell TVs at BestBuy. And that would work for six
months, because you'reinfluencing people to make a
choice and you like influencethat long term. I didn't want to
(39:01):
be selling TVs at Best Buy forthe next 20 years. Right? So
little things like that, where Igo, Oh, what would it be about
this? That will that will feelmore natural to me. You know,
Dan Miller, in his book hetalked about you could be a
teacher. And if you teach in arural school, or a private
(39:25):
school, or a school, you know,that feeds into to Oxford in
England. Those are alltechnically the same job. But
the environment and the goal andthe reason and the context
matters infinitely more in someways than the job. And so
(39:50):
finding out what that lookslike, you don't know unless you
try and you put yourself intothat situation. So I view it
like a science experiment, youmake a hypothesis, say, I think
I would enjoy this job becauseof I think I would enjoy that
role because of you try it on.
I've tried on a lot of thingsover the last 20 years. Yeah,
Anna Stumpf (40:13):
and you're not done. Still trying them out. I
love that about you your biggestchallenge you think you've faced
in your career? Maybe youhaven't faced it yet, I don't
know. But one of the biggestwhen I say big challenge, what
comes to mind along yourjourney,
Josh Brammer (40:32):
I would say the biggest challenge was when I
started my own business. And Idid not have success in the
first three months. Because thethe identity crisis I went
through, taught me a lot aboutthe box that we put ourselves
(40:56):
in, and we kind of gradeourselves against, it's like, we
make this rubric for ourselvesof what success looks like. And
I think a lot of us don'tactually know what we're grading
on. We just put a lot ofpressure on ourselves when
things you know, you hit yourhead on the wall.
Anna Stumpf (41:11):
Well, you walked out, like a VP role, right? I
mean, when you walked out ofagency to start your business,
you had reached a certain levelof success. So to step out, and
then probably felt like a littlebit of a step down, right, those
first 90 days,
Josh Brammer (41:28):
the technical thing that happened was I went
from General Manager andstrategy lead for an agency to
independent do everything. Andbecause I hadn't made a lot of
decisions around my targetaudience and exactly how I was
going to show up, I just said Iwas going to be a consultant. So
(41:49):
I put on my consultant hat, andmy consultant briefcase, and I
said, we're going to consult.
And as I shared, people didn'tknow what I was selling, I
didn't know what I was selling,I thought I would customize
everything that created a ton ofidentity crisis for me. Because
suddenly you say, Well, I haveto make something up, I have to
pull from my experience and likegive value. And that caused a
(42:11):
lot of like, like the wind cameout of my sails really fast. The
next thing that happened andthis is the the thing that from
a tactical standpoint, I had tobecome a doer. implementer and I
had been in the strategymanagement role for many years.
So it like the doing muscles inmy body felt very atrophied. And
(42:36):
that was very challenging. Andthere were moments when I just
had to roll up my sleeves andsit down and make myself sit at
my desk and do things that Ireally didn't want to do or
didn't feel skilled to do. Andthat was part of building that
muscle because I'd go into thegym. Along with that the
(42:56):
identity crisis I was goingthrough was I said, I'm a I'm a
senior leader, you know, I'm anagency executive. Well, now I'm
a consultant. Well, that didn'tfeel like it worked. And
suddenly, I went and decided tobecome storebrand certified. So
that I had a framework that Icould lean against, to not make
something up, it became a thingthat like I knew my customers
(43:20):
wanted it. I had three customersasking for it. So there was
there was some validation there.
But in that moment, my wifelooked at me and said, Josh, are
you a copywriter? Like, are youa writer. And there was this
voice in the back of my mind,because I had written a little
bit in the agency. And thewriters that was working for me
(43:41):
was like, you just need to stoptrying this, like this is not
like your skill. And I had toactively overcome other people
telling me what I what I couldand couldn't do. And I just sit
down, I would sit down onSaturday morning and start
writing a website. And I theentire time, I felt like a fake
(44:06):
I felt like an imposter. Sixyears later, I'm much better at
it than I was then. But I stillhave to wake up and choose
whether I take on the identityof writer because it's it's
amazing that I can feel aftersix years of doing it and
(44:26):
helping hundreds of clients. Ican still wake up in over the
last year. I said, you know, Idon't know if I'm a writer. I
don't know if I'm a marketer.
Maybe I'm a business coach. Andit's weird that you can put on a
mental hat and it changes howyou show up. And it actually
changes the quality of the workthat you do and what comes out
of your fingers while you'reworking. Oh, yeah. And that's
(44:46):
infinitely curious. To me. Itis.
Anna Stumpf (44:54):
And it's how much of your perception of those
roles right? What does it meanto be a writer What is a good
writer and you looking atyourself and think, Well, I
don't do that I don't have that.
And then everyone else is afteryou for that skill. That's
incredible. How hard has it beennot to fall back into, like you,
you know, sold off your agencygot this new business model,
(45:19):
you've got this new, even morelaser focus on the part of a
journey that you want to beimpactful to? How hard is it to
keep that narrow focus and notget that scope spread? Is it
easier now that you've made thechoice
Josh Brammer (45:40):
for me, because of this, because of the skills and
the way that I show up, I havethe gift of wonder I have the
gift of invention, I have thegift of discernment, what I find
is that I smell opportunitydaily. And so it's a constant.
(46:00):
Not a battle, but a constantguard that I need to put up to
not chase shiny objects. Andwhat that means for me right now
is, there are ways in which Ican pull from my experience I
can pull from my network, but Ihave to decide which problems
(46:21):
I'm tackling. Because there's aninfinite amount of problems out
there in the world that we couldsolve as a business. But we have
to stay firm on the way and thewho we're helping. And this is
the hardest part. I was one ofthose students that really liked
(46:43):
to get good grades. And whatI've realized in business is,
when you're a service provider,you have to decide the level
that you're going to servesomeone. Because the one of the
biggest plagues that happens inthe agency model is people over
(47:03):
deliver, they just continue toadd more and more and more,
because they think it's eitherthey're helping or they they
they really care that there's alot of things. And so part of
the challenge becomes managingthe scope creep of not putting
too much energy and or too manyextra bells and whistles on to
(47:24):
things. But not in a way thatI'm holding back from clients,
but in a way that I'm servingthem in the right way. So I can
serve more people so I can helpmore companies. And that is that
is a huge challenge.
Anna Stumpf (47:39):
Especially I would imagine if you get those clients
and you start with theirmessaging, and you start with
their business, and you startwith them as an entrepreneur,
and you're like, let's just gothe next step, or we've got this
box check, let's what's next,right and to have that, that
boundary of okay, this is as faras I go. Right? I'm gonna hand
(47:59):
you off now or you're you've gotyour training wheels, you can go
for yourself. But again, I thinkyou've mentioned a lot like
finding that joy, I wouldimagine like pushing that person
into their next, you know, phaseand then turning back around and
working with that next groupthat's got that wonder and that
confusion. And like figuringthat all out, that's probably
(48:20):
where you're going to start tobuild that muscle of oh, it's
time like, I'm starting to feelcompleted or depleted. It's time
to go back so that you buildthat over time, I assume. But
yeah, I can see the nice shinyobject thing is hard, especially
when it's fun. Like I always saythat's sometimes the most
detrimental F word. In business,when you enjoy certain parts and
(48:43):
pieces or individuals that youwant to like, though, this is a
good time, like, let's just keepthis going. But you know, that's
not sustainable.
Josh Brammer (48:51):
Right? Yeah. And, and it's just, it can be really
challenging. From a creativitystandpoint, this is why I
encourage people in the creativeworld, they really have to
narrow and focus. Becausesometimes the the creative
process is the drug that we arechasing. Not that not the
(49:14):
outcome that we're delivering toclients. And that's really
challenging for a lot of people,especially if you get your
identity wrapped up in thequality of the work that you
deliver, or the quality of thecreativity, because that's a
very subjective thing. And sothat's that's taken me years to
build up some strong defensesagainst
Anna Stumpf (49:37):
and to notice the signs, right or that Yeah. So
now as you sit here, your buddyyear into the new venture, how
do you describe what you do?
Josh Brammer (49:52):
So what I do now is a mix of business coaching
and copywriting and messagingBecause the gap that I continue
to see is that small servicebusinesses have to make up and
package what they do. They'reoften selling ideas. And the
(50:16):
challenge becomes the customerdoesn't know how to buy what you
do. They don't do what you do.
That's why they're hiring you.
And so there's a mix betweencreating the right offers and
packages. But the real work thatI'm doing is helping the
business owner decide where dothey want to show up? What's
(50:37):
their sweet spot? And then howdo we box that up in a way that
protects them from getting outof their sweet spot and their
client from getting a lot ofvalue out of the package or the
box that they're buying. Becausea lot of times, there's a huge
disconnect between what you sayyou're selling, where the client
thinks they're buying. And thenthat stretches you into
(50:58):
constantly adding more and moreand more, and it burns creatives
out. So I'm in the business ofhelping creatives package up
their expertise in a way that'seasier to sell, that keeps you
in a good sweet spot foryourself in your business. And
Anna Stumpf (51:15):
talk about the creatives, why are they special
and unique to you.
Josh Brammer (51:20):
So for many years, in my agency world, we helped
business to business customersthat sold more, they had larger
teams, they sold complexproducts or services. But what I
found was, I had an itch to helpthe the smaller business, the
(51:42):
person where their identity wasgetting wrapped up in launching
and starting and growing thisbusiness. And so I lean towards
creatives, because thatcreativity trap, that client
trap happens so frequently. Forall the writers, designers, the
(52:03):
marketers that I have met that Ihave worked with I've networked
with for 15 years. And what Ifind is unless they have an
outside perspective to helpthem, build out their package,
build out the things that theydo help them get a clear
message, they just get stuck intheir head for years, I've met
people that have been stuck for10 years. And people may love
(52:26):
them. They may do great qualitywork, but they've literally been
repeating the same, the samecycle for years. And they don't
know how to get out of it. Andthat really frustrates me from a
personal standpoint, becauselike, are they Unlocking
Potential? Are they sparkingjoy? Are they in their sweet
(52:47):
spot? And the answer istypically No, but I'm really
good at what I do.
Anna Stumpf (52:53):
And here I am, right, I have bills to pay and
people Yeah, If I
Josh Brammer (52:59):
don't help in this way, a lot of those people
either are going to stay inburnout for years. And it's kind
of the starving artistssyndrome, or eventually they're
going to hit the eject button orthey're going to go get a job
back in corporate and a piece ofthem is going to get left
behind. A piece of them is leftin the business. Because they
don't know how to. They don'tknow how to reconcile
Anna Stumpf (53:23):
that. Well, and they've never gotten their joy,
right. They've got they'vegotten close to it. But they've
really never felt it. That'sthat's hard to how collaborative
are you with a collective groupof people I know. Going through
your website in some of yoursocial posts. In preparation for
this interview, you've you'vegot a team that you collaborate
(53:47):
with that I would imagine isimportant to you and important
to your clients. But you'restill a solo printer, right? So
how important is it to have thatgroup that sounding board,
Josh Brammer (53:59):
I think it's so important to have a collective
group that you're working withwhat I'm doing now and the
approach that I'm taking now isI help in two ways. One, I
connect with other creatives whodo things that I don't do, so
that they can stay in theirsweet spot and I can stay in my
sweet spot. And the other thingthat happens is there's a lot of
(54:23):
inspiration that needs to happenfor humans, when they see
somebody else have success. Itbecomes a believable thing that
I can I can push myself to go inthat direction. And so I see
that the network that I'mbuilding and have been building
for the last couple of years ismuch more of a collective of
(54:46):
people that are in their sweetspot with a very specific way in
which they show up and helpbecause then referrals become so
much easier.
Anna Stumpf (54:56):
Well that's trust to like how important that is
right like That's really themagic key that opens all the
doors was when you trust someoneand their consistency and their
heart and you know, they're intheir joy build spot, and
they're gonna pull that out ofother people. Like that's
important. That's to me. That'sthe difference of like, well,
let me Google and see if we canfind somebody or I have a
(55:19):
collective of people that Itrust that I would have you talk
to, like, that feels good. Andit's good for you, too. Yeah.
All right. How are things withthe family? Can Do you think if
we talk to them, they wouldnotice a difference in you in
the last six months to a year?
Josh Brammer (55:40):
Yeah, I think that they are seeing a lot more joy
come out in my life. And sothat's a continual process. You
know, I know that they, theyknow that I like to focus and
they know that I like to, towork hard. But I am finding that
the more joy that I can bringinto other clients, the more I
(56:06):
kind of take that spark out intolife outside. And so that I
think that that's, that's a goodthing to watch as a family.
Anna Stumpf (56:16):
It's amazing. It's gotta be great. Does it feel? Do
you feel guilty? Sometimes whenyou get in that joy? Because you
hadn't had it for a while? Like,does it feel like
Josh Brammer (56:25):
oh, no, I don't feel guilty about it. I feel, if
anything, I feel remorse thatlike when somebody when
somebody, you know, gets newsfrom the doctor, and they go,
oh, I need to start eatinghealthy. I look back I go, What
if I had just eaten healthy forthe last 10 years? Like, how
much better would I have feltthe whole
Anna Stumpf (56:44):
time? Like you're giving your body the right oil
and nutrients? And you're like,Oh, this is how this is supposed
to feel?
Josh Brammer (56:50):
Right? So. So once you get into your sweet spot, I
think there's just so muchrelief. And then if anything,
it's it's a little bit of, youknow, sadness that you look back
and go, Why didn't I just makethese decisions sooner?
Anna Stumpf (57:03):
Right. But I think what's beautiful about what you
do is you have historicallythrough seasons of your life,
funneled that into, like how youcan show up and help people not
do that, right. Like yourecognize where they are, and
you recognize what they'refeeling. And you think, Oh, I
know, I know what you need rightnow. All right, my friend I've
learned so I knew this is goingto be so fascinating. After our
(57:26):
last conversation, which again,was a long time ago, I knew
you'd only gotten more committedto making these changes in your
life. And I always learn thingsfrom you. And I'm just
incredibly inspired by yourpassion, and clarity. I know
that comes at a cost. But it'sdefinitely got to be one of your
superpowers. People can find youon LinkedIn. And your website is
(57:54):
Hello lantern dot Hellolantern.com. And there is a
plethora of information and waysto get you for speaking
engagements, workshops,coaching, and business coaching.
There's a group that you haveyou have individual coaching,
you will do copywritingsessions. There's just there's
(58:14):
so much good information on thewebsite on different ways you
can engage with Josh and get allof the inspiration or
collaboration really looks likesome of those groups are full,
but there are waitlists, sodifferent ways to engage with
you. Thank you so much for yourtime today. I know, it's
probably your most preciouselement that you're trying to
(58:36):
preserve and protect. And Iappreciate you spending an hour
of it with us. Yeah, it was sogreat to connect. Yeah, this was
dual purpose. I got to catch upwith you. But I get to tell the
world too. So it's kind of nice.
Josh Brammer (58:49):
Yeah, it was so much fun. Yeah, good.
Anna Stumpf (59:02):
It's the conclusion of another great episode. And
you know what that means? Webelieve in the power of
practical wisdom. That's why atthe end of every episode, we
propose the collectivechallenge. This is a small
actionable step for you tointegrate these lessons learned
into your daily life. So ourcollective challenge after
speaking with Josh is to reallyreflect on your current
(59:23):
professional role or business.
Identify one aspect that alignswith your strengths, interests
and passion or as Josh calledit, your sweet spot, and then
try and commit to focusing yourenergy and nurturing and
expanding that aspect over thenext week. And maybe as you
think about what your sweet spotmight be, maybe you don't have
one handy or a natural, organicsweet spot. If that's the case,
(59:49):
then maybe focus on one aspectof your professional life where
you feel stuck or unfulfilled.
And then take a small actionablestep toward Addressing this
area, something simple likescheduling the conversation with
a mentor, checking out andfinding like a short online
course, to develop a skill thatmaybe you're passionate about,
(01:00:11):
or dedicating just time toreflect could be journaling on
your career goals and writingthem down finding those gaps.
What you're really wanting to dois take some proactive steps
towards your personal andprofessional development and
make sure you have a sense ofprogress or self awareness or
movement forward, that you'refinding. Hope that works, keep
(01:00:32):
in touch, send an email throughthe website at collective energy
coach.com contact form. And letme know how these are going. I
would love to hear how yourcollective challenges are going.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of collective energy
conversations. Today's storiesand insights are just the
(01:00:55):
beginning of our collectiveexploration into the vast
landscape of personal andprofessional development. If
today's conversation inspiredyou please share this episode
with your friends, family orcolleagues who also might find
value in our collective wisdom.
Your sharing helps us grow andexpand our community. We'd love
to hear your thoughts andexperiences. Connect with us on
LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram,at threads at collective energy
(01:01:17):
coach, and check out our websiteat WWW dot collective energy
coach.com and become part of thecollective. Until next time,
keep growing, keep connectingand keep sharing your story
because every voice matters inthe journey of growth. I'm Dr.
Anna Stumpf, and this has beencollective energy conversations
(01:01:38):
where we elevate growth throughshared stories.
Welcome to collective energy conversations,
your inspiration for personaland professional growth in mid
career. I'm Dr. Anna stump YourGuide to inspiring stories from
a variety of professionals, acollective energy, we believe in
the transformative power ofconnections and shared
experiences. Each week we delveinto narratives that spark
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Join us as we elevate our growththrough the power of shared
(00:30):
stories.
Welcome back, I'm excited tobring you this episode with Josh
Brammer, who is been introducedto me and I've had interactions
with because he is a story brandcertified guide. If you're not
familiar with Donald Millerstory, brand framework output
links in the show notes for you.
But Josh has his own business.
(00:53):
He's had lanturn, for 13 years,almost 14, and I spoke with him
a little over a year ago, on apossible project. And he told me
at the time, I really just don'tlove this part of owning a
business. And I think I'm gonnamake a pivot. So I was very
excited to get back in touchwith him, asked him to come on
(01:14):
the show, hear what his pivotwas, and kind of what his key
learnings and takeaways are fromthat. So I'm very thrilled to
bring you he's so vulnerable andso great at giving so many good
examples, a story brand, right?
That's what they do. But I thinkone of my favorite things about
this episode is just somebodywho from the outside looks like
they have reached what the restof us are trying to get. And
(01:35):
then he just kind of says, Yeah,pick up my head as a pull back
from that and find more workthat is directly related to what
brings me joy. So I'm excitedfor you to hear from him. But as
always, I like to kick off eachepisode with a quote that kind
of encapsulates the theme ofwe're going to talk about, and
to quote, another incrediblestrategic creative is Steve
(01:58):
Jobs. And the quote is, the onlyway to do great work is to love
what you do. And if you haven'tnot found that yet, keep
looking, don't settle. With thatin mind, please hear from Josh
Brammer, do the last time youand I had a conversation, a zoom
call, it's been a little over ayear ago, year and a half. And
(02:20):
you had learned something reallyimportant about yourself
with your agency and kind of thepivot you made. So walk me
through all the things if youwould, what, what I realized as
I was in marketing for years,for almost 15 years, is that
there was so much of marketingthat just confuses business.
(02:47):
It's almost like this black boxthat people feel like they need
to and they have to and theyshould. And there's just so much
around that that people don'tknow how to kind of interact
with it.
It's kind of like career in thatspace, though. You been in
marketing strategy andeverything since you graduated
(03:07):
college, right? Yeah. After Ipivoted out of ministry, there
was a there was a, you know,probably six year college slash
graduating that was in youthministry. But it was still in
communications. And so I was inmarketing, nonprofit
communications and selling Jesuswas, you know, I was like, I was
(03:31):
still introducing a product, itjust happened to write
Josh Brammer (03:35):
a very old product, and trying to convince
people what they need, like theythink they have a problem.
That's not really your problem.
That's the That's the joke thatI often make is my marketing
career started by trying to getseventh graders interested in a
Jewish carpenter. So ever sincethen, my products have been
easier to sell. Moving into thestrategic piece and working in
like, I mean, we're joking aboutpeople not understanding their
(03:58):
problem, like they come and theythink they have this problem,
and they're not getting revenue,they're not getting this and
they always want to pull thosemarketing shiny object levers.
And you'd been in that space fora long time of like being able
to see things people couldn'tsee. Right. And that's kind of
what is that what helped youevolve into starting your own
agency? I'll just I'll tell thestory, because this is the this
(04:21):
is the plot. Okay. I left myagency out of frustration with
seeing that there were smallerbusinesses that were able to be
served by either the price orthe size of the team, and so I
thought there's probably animbler way to help people. And
I wanted to solve that problem.
(04:44):
So I thought that I'd solve itas a consultant.
I went out and started my owncompany and about three months
went by and people said, Josh,we like you but we don't know
what you're saying and selling.
We don't know what to buy fromyou.
And the sales weren't happening.
And so I turned to storebrand,which I'd already use the
(05:07):
toolkit, I just decided to divein and become certified in it.
And I became, I began to usethat as the box that I was
delivering. So I was stilldelivering the same style of
consulting. And I usedcopywriting as the box that
people could raise their handand say, I'm not good with
words, I will get your help. Sothe consulting the strategy, the
(05:31):
things that are ambiguous, I wasable to put it inside of the box
of we are going to write wordsfor you.
Anna Stumpf (05:39):
And does it. I feel like that, looking at what you
do copyright messaging, clarity,all that I think that helps us
as humans, right. Like, I'm inthe business of helping people
with emotional intelligence.
Like, I feel like, there's sucha parallel of the clarity and
the identifying the problem andhow you're going to be the guy,
(05:59):
you know, the solution that youbring. And there's so much
buzzword right now, likefiguring out or by telling their
story and their personal brand.
And all of that is becoming alittle convoluted. But I do
think that what you do lendsitself not only to an
entrepreneur or small business,but just to be better
(06:22):
communicators, like you said,originally. Yeah,
Josh Brammer (06:26):
yeah. And so that becomes the plot. So then I'll
fast forward to last year, therewas this moment where I got
frustrated with the agency andthe business that I had built.
And I had a identity crisis. AndI said publicly in front of, you
(06:46):
know, 300 other marketers on astage at a conference, I don't
think I like marketing. I don'tknow if I like marketing
anymore. I don't know if I wantto be a marketer. And so I went
on a journey over the last yearto really explore what was it
about the things that I like todo? What what are the
superpowers that I bring? Whendoes the client feel the most
(07:08):
energy from me. And what I foundis, I pushed away and tried to
do business coaching for about ayear, I did some consulting, I
did a little bit of marketing.
And what ended up happening is,I came back into the marketing
ring, because there's a momentin which the start of marketing
is the is where the clarity hasto happen. And the clarity is
(07:35):
what the aha moment is what I'maddicted to, that marketing
becomes the doorway that peopleneed to walk through. It's just
in a different way than how Iwas delivering it in the agency.
At the end of the day, it'sclarity, it's communication,
it's sticking to the value andthe problems that you're
(07:56):
solving, right. But it's easiestfor me to help people have the
impact that they're looking for.
If I stay in the marketing rangeversus in like a business
coaching consulting ring.
Anna Stumpf (08:09):
I mean, this is a big discovery for yourself,
because you had a verysuccessful agency, you had
employees, you had a reputation,you had a client base, you had
gotten successful by otherpeople's definitions. But you
have this moment where you'relike, I don't I don't like the
busyness or the business of whatI'm doing. And then how do you
(08:33):
how do you walk through that?
Like, how did you peel back allof the just like reality of what
you were in and get to the cruxof like this, I need to focus on
this one small area?
Josh Brammer (08:48):
Well, it was complicated, or at least it felt
complicated.
Anna Stumpf (08:52):
Well, yeah, I would think it'd have to be
Josh Brammer (08:54):
the challenge that I see. And this is the space
that I help other entrepreneursnow is there's this identity
crisis, where if you are theservice provider, and you're the
decision maker, and you're thefinance team, and you're the
everything, there's a whole bigball of wax tied up together,
(09:15):
and on untangling that knot ofidentity. And value is very,
very complicated. What I foundis there's a healthy balance
that you have to strike as anexpert where you can't be doing
hard, like, you know, quantumphysics math at all times, you
(09:35):
just will burn out. And so partof the challenge that I found as
I was transitioning out of theagency model is I had basically
built a system in which becauseof distractions because of not
choosing. I created a systemthat was overly complicated and
(09:56):
then I was stuck inside of thatsystem and the real moment I was
having was the sales, themarketing, the finance, all the
different pressures that happeninside of every business, we're
all hitting at the same time indifferent ways. And so it was
causing this, this feeling oflike, you know this, there's
smoke in in the engine, andsomething's not something's not
(10:21):
hitting right. And so for me, Ihad to decide to pivot out of
the agency, I sold it to anothergroup that that liked certain
pieces of what I didn't like,just so that it was kind of an
escape hatch for me to say, Ineed to get out of this. And I
need to like, take time to getout of the smoke and let the
smoke clear, so that I canfigure out what roles I want to
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live in, I want to work in. Andwhat I find is, the place that
I'm helping people now is, it'sa moment I've experienced
multiple times over the last 10years, it's the solopreneur, I'm
taking all the burden of thebusiness on myself. But because
of that you're wearing like 16different hats. And what you
(11:09):
have to do as a solopreneur asan expert, is you have to decide
what roles you're really strongin and you can do repeatedly.
And you have to learn, eitheryou're going to delete or
delegate other pieces of thebusiness. And that either means
you have to really streamlineyour service and really focus do
(11:30):
less, or you do less and hirepeople for the other pieces,
which then suddenly makes youeither have contractors or a
small team or you know, whetherthey're they're part time or
full time anything like that thepressure of growing a small
business is often it comes backto that question of clarity.
(11:50):
What problem am I solving forcustomers? How am I going to
find the customers? So there'sall this sales, marketing,
finance delivery stuff thatsneaks up on you at every turn,
as a service provider? I help inthat, in that mess. That right
find ourselves in? It
Anna Stumpf (12:08):
is messy, and it's necessary at a certain level,
Josh Brammer (12:12):
right? Yeah. Can I give you an example? Absolutely.
I was having a conversation in,in a community of marketers. And
somebody said, What do you say,when you when people ask you who
your target audiences. So I gavehim an example of what I say
now. And I gave him an exampleof what I said in the agency.
(12:33):
And I was having this momentwhere I was realizing that's a
really challenging question. Andfor most of the people that I
interact with, that are under amillion dollars in revenue, they
are terrified of staking a claimto a specific tight target
audience. They are afraid ofniching they may have heard
(12:53):
that, you know, you know, richesare in the niches or whatever
the phrase is. But there's thismoment when you feel terrified
to cut off opportunity. And theperson who's asking the question
said, Well, here's what I'msaying today. And what they said
was, I help b2b and b2ccompanies that need digital
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marketing. And then you know,they had a little trail there.
And I stopped a thought you justtried to lasso the most amount
of companies, right. And I hadno idea who you actually are
talking about. And it's thenatural reaction. That's why I
think a lot of small businessesactually fail is because they
(13:38):
never last. So a very tightcircle of who they can help and
how they can help. And becauseof that, your processes and your
people and your staffing and allof the things inside of the
business to deliver value getexponentially bigger, or they
feel like they need to getbigger. And at the same time you
(14:00):
have the friction of if youdon't choose, then how are you
ever going to focus yourmarketing with limited
resources? How are you evergoing to focus your sales and
actually have repeatableconversations that feel valuable
and feel like you're an expert.
And so I look at I have thispost it note on my desk that
says nice for now. Because whatmost of us need to do in a
business is pick something andwork on it and try it on. See if
(14:23):
that fits, see if it works. It'sokay to change your mind but
it's not okay to not decide.
They're not deciding is thedeath of small business in my
opinion.
Anna Stumpf (14:38):
So talk about this experience that you've had this
last couple of years from apersonal perspective, because I
would imagine if you are goingthrough the motions wearing
yourself out trying to figureout what is it that's not
feeling right like where am Inot getting fulfilled and why do
I not love this? Like I'veworked really hard to get here
(14:58):
and I love it. How does thatpresent itself? Your father,
your husband, like you have alot in your personal life? Like
how do you find that balance?
And how do you go through thatprofessional? You know, cocoon
and then reemergence? And likethat. Where's the balance? And
(15:18):
the cost? I guess? Yeah.
Josh Brammer (15:22):
I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't think about
the cost, to their family, totheir relationships, around a
lot of this, this indecision andthis lack of clarity. What I
have found is, like, it's, itwasn't uncommon for me to be
noodling on math on a Fridaynight, while I should be
(15:45):
relaxing. Now, that's not to saythat sometimes inspiration
doesn't hit when you're not, youknow, in your work environment.
But if you're constantlythinking about other things,
when you're trying to play,catch, or go to the park, or you
know, see a movie, whatever thethings that you're trying to do,
I find that business and your,your career and the unsettled
(16:11):
challenge, it's like it, it waslike I was dragging those chains
from, like, I watched aChristmas carol with my family
this this winter. And like whenOh, Marley's go. So this
character has all of thesechains, dragging him down, and
it was all have this tension.
And I feel like sometimes, as anentrepreneur, all of these
(16:33):
chains will drag on you. And youjust constantly have more and
more indecision, more and morethings that are on your plate.
And what happens is, it reallyimpacted myself and I would get
through multiple stages of I waslike, you know, whether it was
like continual burnout, or justfeeling that, that drag that
friction, and it would reallymake it so that I couldn't
(16:58):
unplug. You feel that nag whereyou're like, Hey, I'm gonna
check email, I'm gonna checkslack, I'm gonna do these
things. And I heard this advice.
It was saying, if you stop andcheck your email, if you stop
and check slack, you might aswell go back to your closet and
like put a suit and tie on.
Because you mentally are nolonger in family mode, you got
(17:21):
to work mode. And while most ofus don't think in those terms,
and most of us don't have to,like put on a tie every day,
it's, it's a mental image thathelped me, because I found that
it was, it was better for me totry to decide what I needed to
do, and simplify the things thatI allow it to happen in my work
(17:48):
life, so that it doesn't creepup and take over the rest of
everything. And I'm a veryimaginative person. You know,
I've been diagnosed with ADHD, Ifind that the creativity and the
spark that happens sometimes isthe superpower that I have. But
if I don't create strongboundaries for that, then the
(18:11):
business will just constantlychase me around. And it's like,
it's setting fires wherever Igo. Yeah. And tivity will, will
just, you know, eat away at mein a way that's not healthy.
Well,
Anna Stumpf (18:25):
it had to be what the friction you are feeling
when you had your Realization?
Because I wouldn't, I'm guessingright? Like those chains get
heavier and heavier. But you youbuild muscle to learn how to
drag them. Right, you findyourself going through those
motions. And I would imaginethat, in addition to some of
like, what you were feelingpersonally, I would think your
(18:45):
creativity was stifled a littlebit being absolutely, you know,
founder, entrepreneur employermode, where that's not really
where you thrive as much.
Josh Brammer (18:58):
Right? Yeah. And part of the part of the self
discovery that I had to do wasrealize I'll use IKEA as the
example. Often when you when youthink about IKEA, you could go
through the whole store and say,Hey, everything in here fits in
a box and you can put ittogether. And their stuff is
(19:19):
pretty simple when you thinkabout it from a product
standpoint. But when you walkthrough the store, you can see
so many different ways in whichthey put it together and the
ways in which they could bring aroom to life. And I read a quote
once when I was walking intoIKEA that I forget the direct
quote, but it said basically,that boundaries and lines are
(19:40):
what allow creativity to happen.
And what I had to learn and thisis the hard part for me about
the last 10 years is there arecertain roles that I am good at
and I thrive in. And there areother roles that creep up as you
try to grow and expand thebusiness. And the common path
for a lot of people is you do arole and you get skilled at it,
(20:04):
and then you get promoted out ofyour sweet spot. And then the
next stage becomes a managerrole or a director role, or
whatever it is. And as a smallbusiness owner, the reason I
sold my agency is because I hadcreated a recruiting and sales
role for myself. And I was nolonger in a creative zone. And
(20:24):
because of that, it's like I waswithout like water and sunlight,
and I was just wilting as aperson. Have you ever
encountered the book by MarieKondo about the picking up and
organizing and you pick up anobject and you ask Does it spark
joy? Yes. And I read that book,and I had already written a
(20:47):
personal mission statement thatwas talking about sparking joy,
the two pieces of my personalmission statement are Unlocking
Potential and sparking joy. Andwhat I have found, personally,
is that there is a sweet spotfor a person where their natural
interests, their natural skills,and then the piece that was
(21:09):
missing for me for years, wasthinking about the fact that the
business itself is a system. Andthen the leadership of that
business is in the job ofdeciding how to keep the system
systematic. But most businesseshave a very human component to
it. So I what I find is I haveto keep like a thermometer on
(21:35):
is, are the things that I'mdoing, the way that I'm showing
up the way that I'm interactingwith clients or with the team or
with my work, is it actuallyunlocking more potential in my
own skills and my own interest?
And at the same time, is itsparking joy? Are people better
(21:57):
off because I'm doing what I'mdoing?
Anna Stumpf (22:01):
And a greater a greater people, right, not just
the ones in front of you, or theones working for you. But yeah,
Josh Brammer (22:08):
so that fundamentally connected some
dots for me that I had beencurious about for 10 years. But
in the next phase of what I'mbuilding within lantern, it's
much more about helping peoplefind and stay in their sweet
spot, then it is about businessgrowth. Because I think a lot of
(22:31):
people grow at the sake of self.
And they just think if I just gohire more people, if I just go
make more sales, if I just getmore clients as more and more
and more. I'm like, Yeah, butwhat about the people that are
in the system that aredelivering the value, they need
to be in their sweet spot?
Anna Stumpf (22:50):
Alongside your career technology's ramped up
right now we're in like,exponential tech. And I think in
some ways, you've mentioned alot of systems and processes and
things within the business. Andsometimes we can get fooled into
thinking, Oh, I can automatethat. Or I can, you know, do
(23:10):
this, or I can do that. And canyou talk a little bit about
like, in my mind, sometimesthat's a fallacy. Like somebody
still has to manage a lot ofthat and decide on a lot of
that. And so is it a tripwirethat is healthy? Or does it
still have to be managed, in away like when you look at what's
coming, because you've had avery robust career alongside the
(23:34):
growth of technology? And I'mjust curious what your thoughts
and feelings are on that interms of the things you've been
talking about, as well, liketaking a look at a business
owner or an entrepreneur? Whatkind of a help or hindrance I
think this automation can be.
Josh Brammer (23:51):
It's one that I'm exploring right now, because I'm
the way that AI has shown up ina new way. Lots of people are
experiencing it at scale in away that they they didn't a
couple of years ago.
Anna Stumpf (24:07):
Or right, six months, I can surpass
Josh Brammer (24:12):
in part of what I am, what I am exploring, and
what I am experiencing, is Icall it both and can we layer
technology and help us but youhave to realize that speed is
not the only metric. More is notthe only metric. And so what I'm
(24:41):
looking at as I approach it ishow do we how do we use
technology as a collaborator,not as a replacement.
Anna Stumpf (24:50):
Right? And I would imagine, to take something
you've already established rightand magnify it, but not try and
replace Place, the organicgrowth of an individual and
their strategy and their righteye. I think people are leaning
on it for a lot of things thatthey need to personally go
(25:11):
through. I worry about that,like, I worry, we're not as
collaborative and connected as asociety's we should be. And then
all of a sudden, now we're gonnaall have our artificial
intelligence and our bot and ourpersonalization. And I think,
oh, no, that's not what we needto be doing right now. But
Josh Brammer (25:32):
right. I'll give you a practical example. When I
started my agency, there werethings that I needed to do. That
required me to sit down with acup of coffee and think about
something for an hour and a halfor two hours. And there are
(25:55):
technologies now where I canhave a conversation like we're
having right now. I can feed itinto AI, and I can get insights.
And the insights are good enoughthat it could cut an hour out of
my thinking time. No one where Istill feel that humans need to
(26:17):
be involved in that we can stillput people in their sweet spot
is giving people the time tostill have the thinking and
still think through the curationof it. Are these the right
thoughts? Are these the rightconnections, because in its
current reality, AI is notmaking the connections for my
(26:39):
clients that they need me tomake. There's a lot of thinking
that needs to still go into it.
And so I view it as acollaborator, it's like having
an extra. Sometimes inmarketing, we joke that it's
like having a very caffeinatedintern that can do a lot of
brainstorming for you. Right.
But it doesn't mean that you'rereplacing entire roles or
(27:02):
people, you just have a you havea new thinking partner inside of
that, and giving space to thinkthrough that and react to that.
But it's created moreopportunity for my business in
the last year. It has allowed meto deliver more value to my
customers, but we still have tokeep a very human listening
(27:26):
centric, decision centric,strategic slant to the types of
ways that we're using it, we'renot automating it completely.
We're using it to speed up thethe thinking process for for our
Anna Stumpf (27:39):
clients, right?
Which I think is wildlyimportant. So I asked you about
this early and you've mentionedthat a couple times, you are a
story brand guide. And honestly,meeting you and listening to you
in a workshop is what introducedstory brand to me. How did you
find it?
Josh Brammer (28:02):
How did I find storebrand?
Anna Stumpf (28:03):
Did you read the book? Did you like stumble
across it? Like how did youhave?
Josh Brammer (28:08):
The honest answer is I found story brand because I
was on a old email list fromDonald Miller from downloading
an old company that he had wherehe ran a productivity workshop
and he added like a journal,like a productivity journal. I
(28:29):
downloaded that in the in thedepths of my basement while I
was working from home on a on aday when I was stressed out and
trying to figure out how to likemake, you know, make projects
work. And then a couple yearslater, Don pivoted into story
brand and I ended up on hisemail list. And he started to
(28:52):
share the ideas and the conceptsand because I had felt these
tubs of the problems that he wasdescribing, I started getting
emails and I told somebody at myI was working in a different
company I've been through threecompanies by the time that I got
the emails about storebrand andyou know trying on different
roles tried different approachesto marketing and then I got
(29:15):
these emails that said come toNashville come to this workshop
and we will explain how storycan make your marketing easier.
And I
Anna Stumpf (29:23):
did that was like eight years ago seven Yeah,
yeah, eight
Josh Brammer (29:27):
years ago I told my boss I said I think that we
have these problems. I think weshould go to this workshop and
see what we can learn. And wedid and I've been using it ever
since.
Anna Stumpf (29:39):
See go to the workshop and that's just the
like, understand story brand.
And then you decide I'm gonnaget certified in this. I'm gonna
dive I want more. Is that howyou got so or was that before
they even had certifications?
When I
Josh Brammer (29:55):
went to the first workshop, there was no
certification right? There wasnot even To book there was a
workshop. And we went to theworkshop and I have the binder
in my closet. And at theworkshop, there were concepts
and there were, you know, theelements that became the the
elements have been there.
Throughout that there's aninteresting piece because this
(30:18):
is one of the things that Iadmire about storebrand. And the
way that they have built, builtthat business, they took
something that they knew was wasworking in was helpful, and they
took it out into the wild. Andthen they continued to iterate
on it and sharpen it and getfeedback. And what I see for a
(30:38):
lot of businesses is they theygo out, and they act like their
thing is the best in the world.
And then they never givethemselves time to sharpen it.
Right? So I tell a lot of peoplethey need to do like what store
your brand did, they take itout, they do a workshop, they
see if you get feedback from theworkshop, if the workshop works,
(31:00):
then start to add otherelements, other products, other
ways to do it. And so that'sbeen a model for how I have
explained for a lot of thebusiness that that I helped
market and consult with, becausepeople want to get it. It's like
we want to be 40. Before we're40. We like just graduated from
college, but we expect ourselvesto be really far down the road
(31:23):
with a lot of proven trackrecord of success.
Anna Stumpf (31:26):
Yeah, and as you say that I'm sitting here,
reflect on what you've sharedtoday. And everything that you
have really been, like loyal tofiguring out for other people or
things you've gone throughyourself. Like there's really,
that's I think your superpoweris, wait a minute, I know what
this feels like, wait a minute,I've been in this fog before,
(31:47):
wait a minute, I've smelled thesmoke. And other people are too
let me help them figure thatout. That has to feel incredibly
validating for you to know thatyou've taken these chances. And
you've, you know, been throughsome really hard, hard things.
But then you've risen to a levelof success, success, and then
(32:10):
made some choices like this iswhat's best. And it may not be
what's best for everybody. But Inow know what this looks like
and feels like and I know whatthese forks in the road are
these intersections are going tobe and I can help be your guide
for that. I mean, that has tofeel really validated to look in
the rearview mirror and go, Aha,that all happened. So I could be
(32:31):
here. And I think there are alot of people I say our age, I
think you're lying to me. Butthere are a lot of people out
there in their career thathaven't gotten to that place
yet. So what kind of advice doyou have for people who do have
a level of experience and askill they just aren't
comfortable with? Being able tooffer that like what what does a
(32:53):
person have to go through? Maybenot everybody should right?
Maybe not everybody should tryand figure that out for
themselves? But like, what kindof artifacts do you look for in
your life? For what kind offeeling is it that you get that
you think I have something hereand I'm not sure what to do with
it? Or I'm ready for somethingelse. I just don't know what it
is. One
Josh Brammer (33:13):
thing that has been helpful for me is the
personal assessments that helpedme understand the way that I
show up naturally the way that Ithink things like
StrengthsFinder was huge for me10 years ago. And now there are
(33:34):
things like the the six workinggeniuses. And what I find is
there's a combination of factorsfor different people in their
career. I strongly believe thatnot everybody is
entrepreneurial, in a way thatthey should start something and
(33:54):
go it alone. There are manypeople who are great team
players, but they need somebodywho is either the visionary or
they've got the, you know theskills of wonder or invention.
They're thinking and new novelways about approaching problems.
(34:14):
But I have found that for me,there's this tension point. And
I started to write a book aboutit. The book is currently in a
draft not not being worked on,because I'm gaining life
experience working with clientsto validate if the model is
still something worth sharing.
But I'll share the concept ofthe model. For most of us. If
we're a service based expert,whether we're a consultant, a
(34:41):
coach, a creative there's thispoint where if you imagine like
a big map right now you aresitting on the start of the map
today. You've got a certainamount of experiences and
skills. You've got someinterests some innate curiosity.
The challenge becomes what doyou do today to continue to
(35:02):
build those skills? So if youimagine there's like a lover of
building skills, as you buildskills, your experience line
continues, like you keep movingthe.on The map because your
experience happens. The questionthat I have had been pondering
for a couple years now is, howdo we help somebody build their
(35:24):
skills and experience, butthey're also exploring different
paths on the map. And justbecause you explore path doesn't
mean that it's the right fit foryou, you have to test it on, you
have to say, Does this unlockpotential? Does this spread joy?
does this provide a meaningfulexperience for me and for the
(35:45):
customer that I'm that I'mhelping in a business situation.
And there were a lot of pathsthat I took that feel like that
ends. But I continued to goalong the map. And so, you know,
remember, in Indiana Jones, whenyou've got this, you know, this
airplane, and it's got this bigred line? Well, it looks like
(36:07):
he's going in the rightdirection, he knows exactly
where he's going. It doesn'tfeel like that when you're the
person in charge of deciding. Itfeels like you're lost in the
woods. So the the factors that Ilook at are, how do you show up
with the skills and theexperiences and the things that
(36:28):
you're doing? But how do youserve someone in a way that is
valuable to them, but you alsoget paid to build your skills.
And that's what it comes downto, you have to decide, you're
just going to decide how you'regoing to show up. So I tell
people, I'm like, decide for thenext six months? How are you
going to show up for six months,then evaluate it? Because it
(36:49):
might be a different role. Itmight be a different industry,
it might be a different company.
There's lots of factors. But atthe end of the day, it's about
consistency. It's about showingup. You show up and then you
decide was that valuable to meand to others and wasn't
meaningful to me and others. Andto me, that's where you find
(37:10):
your sweet spot.
Anna Stumpf (37:11):
What do you say to people who aren't quite there,
like aren't quite ready to showup? We're not sure how they
would show up. I've loved that.
You mentioned assessments, arethere books, or podcasts or
things that you would recommendto people that are out there, I
think about like a there's a lotof Gen Xers and a lot of people
out there that have all of theseskill sets, they just are
conditioned over time orupbringing or culture or things
(37:33):
look like the I don't know thatI can do that. Like I Clifton
Strengths. My number one iscommunication. So I think we
should all be talking to eachother. I think that's when we
learn more about ourselves, andabout what possibilities are But
what advice do you have forpeople in the pre show up stage.
Like for research in
Josh Brammer (37:57):
my, in my journey, I needed to explore some things
with career counselors. I wentto a career counselor when I in
a former life, I was a youthpastor doing communications. And
as I exited ministry, I neededto do a lot of soul searching.
So there were books like DanMiller, how to add a book years
(38:19):
ago called 48 days to the workthat you love. I went to a
career counselor who gave mesome assessments. And it helped
because what it said is, you maylike things like this, and you
may like things like that. Butwhat it confirmed to me is there
is not a single choice. Thereare types of opportunities that
(38:41):
feel more natural to me. At thetime, as an example, I was told
you could go sell TVs at BestBuy. And that would work for six
months, because you'reinfluencing people to make a
choice and you like influencethat long term. I didn't want to
(39:01):
be selling TVs at Best Buy forthe next 20 years. Right? So
little things like that, where Igo, Oh, what would it be about
this? That will that will feelmore natural to me. You know,
Dan Miller, in his book hetalked about you could be a
teacher. And if you teach in arural school, or a private
(39:25):
school, or a school, you know,that feeds into to Oxford in
England. Those are alltechnically the same job. But
the environment and the goal andthe reason and the context
matters infinitely more in someways than the job. And so
(39:50):
finding out what that lookslike, you don't know unless you
try and you put yourself intothat situation. So I view it
like a science experiment, youmake a hypothesis, say, I think
I would enjoy this job becauseof I think I would enjoy that
role because of you try it on.
I've tried on a lot of thingsover the last 20 years. Yeah,
Anna Stumpf (40:13):
and you're not done. Still trying them out. I
love that about you your biggestchallenge you think you've faced
in your career? Maybe youhaven't faced it yet, I don't
know. But one of the biggestwhen I say big challenge, what
comes to mind along yourjourney,
Josh Brammer (40:32):
I would say the biggest challenge was when I
started my own business. And Idid not have success in the
first three months. Because thethe identity crisis I went
through, taught me a lot aboutthe box that we put ourselves
(40:56):
in, and we kind of gradeourselves against, it's like, we
make this rubric for ourselvesof what success looks like. And
I think a lot of us don'tactually know what we're grading
on. We just put a lot ofpressure on ourselves when
things you know, you hit yourhead on the wall.
Anna Stumpf (41:11):
Well, you walked out, like a VP role, right? I
mean, when you walked out ofagency to start your business,
you had reached a certain levelof success. So to step out, and
then probably felt like a littlebit of a step down, right, those
first 90 days,
Josh Brammer (41:28):
the technical thing that happened was I went
from General Manager andstrategy lead for an agency to
independent do everything. Andbecause I hadn't made a lot of
decisions around my targetaudience and exactly how I was
going to show up, I just said Iwas going to be a consultant. So
(41:49):
I put on my consultant hat, andmy consultant briefcase, and I
said, we're going to consult.
And as I shared, people didn'tknow what I was selling, I
didn't know what I was selling,I thought I would customize
everything that created a ton ofidentity crisis for me. Because
suddenly you say, Well, I haveto make something up, I have to
pull from my experience and likegive value. And that caused a
(42:11):
lot of like, like the wind cameout of my sails really fast. The
next thing that happened andthis is the the thing that from
a tactical standpoint, I had tobecome a doer. implementer and I
had been in the strategymanagement role for many years.
So it like the doing muscles inmy body felt very atrophied. And
(42:36):
that was very challenging. Andthere were moments when I just
had to roll up my sleeves andsit down and make myself sit at
my desk and do things that Ireally didn't want to do or
didn't feel skilled to do. Andthat was part of building that
muscle because I'd go into thegym. Along with that the
(42:56):
identity crisis I was goingthrough was I said, I'm a I'm a
senior leader, you know, I'm anagency executive. Well, now I'm
a consultant. Well, that didn'tfeel like it worked. And
suddenly, I went and decided tobecome storebrand certified. So
that I had a framework that Icould lean against, to not make
something up, it became a thingthat like I knew my customers
(43:20):
wanted it. I had three customersasking for it. So there was
there was some validation there.
But in that moment, my wifelooked at me and said, Josh, are
you a copywriter? Like, are youa writer. And there was this
voice in the back of my mind,because I had written a little
bit in the agency. And thewriters that was working for me
(43:41):
was like, you just need to stoptrying this, like this is not
like your skill. And I had toactively overcome other people
telling me what I what I couldand couldn't do. And I just sit
down, I would sit down onSaturday morning and start
writing a website. And I theentire time, I felt like a fake
(44:06):
I felt like an imposter. Sixyears later, I'm much better at
it than I was then. But I stillhave to wake up and choose
whether I take on the identityof writer because it's it's
amazing that I can feel aftersix years of doing it and
(44:26):
helping hundreds of clients. Ican still wake up in over the
last year. I said, you know, Idon't know if I'm a writer. I
don't know if I'm a marketer.
Maybe I'm a business coach. Andit's weird that you can put on a
mental hat and it changes howyou show up. And it actually
changes the quality of the workthat you do and what comes out
of your fingers while you'reworking. Oh, yeah. And that's
(44:46):
infinitely curious. To me. Itis.
Anna Stumpf (44:54):
And it's how much of your perception of those
roles right? What does it meanto be a writer What is a good
writer and you looking atyourself and think, Well, I
don't do that I don't have that.
And then everyone else is afteryou for that skill. That's
incredible. How hard has it beennot to fall back into, like you,
you know, sold off your agencygot this new business model,
(45:19):
you've got this new, even morelaser focus on the part of a
journey that you want to beimpactful to? How hard is it to
keep that narrow focus and notget that scope spread? Is it
easier now that you've made thechoice
Josh Brammer (45:40):
for me, because of this, because of the skills and
the way that I show up, I havethe gift of wonder I have the
gift of invention, I have thegift of discernment, what I find
is that I smell opportunitydaily. And so it's a constant.
(46:00):
Not a battle, but a constantguard that I need to put up to
not chase shiny objects. Andwhat that means for me right now
is, there are ways in which Ican pull from my experience I
can pull from my network, but Ihave to decide which problems
(46:21):
I'm tackling. Because there's aninfinite amount of problems out
there in the world that we couldsolve as a business. But we have
to stay firm on the way and thewho we're helping. And this is
the hardest part. I was one ofthose students that really liked
(46:43):
to get good grades. And whatI've realized in business is,
when you're a service provider,you have to decide the level
that you're going to servesomeone. Because the one of the
biggest plagues that happens inthe agency model is people over
(47:03):
deliver, they just continue toadd more and more and more,
because they think it's eitherthey're helping or they they
they really care that there's alot of things. And so part of
the challenge becomes managingthe scope creep of not putting
too much energy and or too manyextra bells and whistles on to
(47:24):
things. But not in a way thatI'm holding back from clients,
but in a way that I'm servingthem in the right way. So I can
serve more people so I can helpmore companies. And that is that
is a huge challenge.
Anna Stumpf (47:39):
Especially I would imagine if you get those clients
and you start with theirmessaging, and you start with
their business, and you startwith them as an entrepreneur,
and you're like, let's just gothe next step, or we've got this
box check, let's what's next,right and to have that, that
boundary of okay, this is as faras I go. Right? I'm gonna hand
(47:59):
you off now or you're you've gotyour training wheels, you can go
for yourself. But again, I thinkyou've mentioned a lot like
finding that joy, I wouldimagine like pushing that person
into their next, you know, phaseand then turning back around and
working with that next groupthat's got that wonder and that
confusion. And like figuringthat all out, that's probably
(48:20):
where you're going to start tobuild that muscle of oh, it's
time like, I'm starting to feelcompleted or depleted. It's time
to go back so that you buildthat over time, I assume. But
yeah, I can see the nice shinyobject thing is hard, especially
when it's fun. Like I always saythat's sometimes the most
detrimental F word. In business,when you enjoy certain parts and
(48:43):
pieces or individuals that youwant to like, though, this is a
good time, like, let's just keepthis going. But you know, that's
not sustainable.
Josh Brammer (48:51):
Right? Yeah. And, and it's just, it can be really
challenging. From a creativitystandpoint, this is why I
encourage people in the creativeworld, they really have to
narrow and focus. Becausesometimes the the creative
process is the drug that we arechasing. Not that not the
(49:14):
outcome that we're delivering toclients. And that's really
challenging for a lot of people,especially if you get your
identity wrapped up in thequality of the work that you
deliver, or the quality of thecreativity, because that's a
very subjective thing. And sothat's that's taken me years to
build up some strong defensesagainst
Anna Stumpf (49:37):
and to notice the signs, right or that Yeah. So
now as you sit here, your buddyyear into the new venture, how
do you describe what you do?
Josh Brammer (49:52):
So what I do now is a mix of business coaching
and copywriting and messagingBecause the gap that I continue
to see is that small servicebusinesses have to make up and
package what they do. They'reoften selling ideas. And the
(50:16):
challenge becomes the customerdoesn't know how to buy what you
do. They don't do what you do.
That's why they're hiring you.
And so there's a mix betweencreating the right offers and
packages. But the real work thatI'm doing is helping the
business owner decide where dothey want to show up? What's
(50:37):
their sweet spot? And then howdo we box that up in a way that
protects them from getting outof their sweet spot and their
client from getting a lot ofvalue out of the package or the
box that they're buying. Becausea lot of times, there's a huge
disconnect between what you sayyou're selling, where the client
thinks they're buying. And thenthat stretches you into
(50:58):
constantly adding more and moreand more, and it burns creatives
out. So I'm in the business ofhelping creatives package up
their expertise in a way that'seasier to sell, that keeps you
in a good sweet spot foryourself in your business. And
Anna Stumpf (51:15):
talk about the creatives, why are they special
and unique to you.
Josh Brammer (51:20):
So for many years, in my agency world, we helped
business to business customersthat sold more, they had larger
teams, they sold complexproducts or services. But what I
found was, I had an itch to helpthe the smaller business, the
(51:42):
person where their identity wasgetting wrapped up in launching
and starting and growing thisbusiness. And so I lean towards
creatives, because thatcreativity trap, that client
trap happens so frequently. Forall the writers, designers, the
(52:03):
marketers that I have met that Ihave worked with I've networked
with for 15 years. And what Ifind is unless they have an
outside perspective to helpthem, build out their package,
build out the things that theydo help them get a clear
message, they just get stuck intheir head for years, I've met
people that have been stuck for10 years. And people may love
(52:26):
them. They may do great qualitywork, but they've literally been
repeating the same, the samecycle for years. And they don't
know how to get out of it. Andthat really frustrates me from a
personal standpoint, becauselike, are they Unlocking
Potential? Are they sparkingjoy? Are they in their sweet
(52:47):
spot? And the answer istypically No, but I'm really
good at what I do.
Anna Stumpf (52:53):
And here I am, right, I have bills to pay and
people Yeah, If I
Josh Brammer (52:59):
don't help in this way, a lot of those people
either are going to stay inburnout for years. And it's kind
of the starving artistssyndrome, or eventually they're
going to hit the eject button orthey're going to go get a job
back in corporate and a piece ofthem is going to get left
behind. A piece of them is leftin the business. Because they
don't know how to. They don'tknow how to reconcile
Anna Stumpf (53:23):
that. Well, and they've never gotten their joy,
right. They've got they'vegotten close to it. But they've
really never felt it. That'sthat's hard to how collaborative
are you with a collective groupof people I know. Going through
your website in some of yoursocial posts. In preparation for
this interview, you've you'vegot a team that you collaborate
(53:47):
with that I would imagine isimportant to you and important
to your clients. But you'restill a solo printer, right? So
how important is it to have thatgroup that sounding board,
Josh Brammer (53:59):
I think it's so important to have a collective
group that you're working withwhat I'm doing now and the
approach that I'm taking now isI help in two ways. One, I
connect with other creatives whodo things that I don't do, so
that they can stay in theirsweet spot and I can stay in my
sweet spot. And the other thingthat happens is there's a lot of
(54:23):
inspiration that needs to happenfor humans, when they see
somebody else have success. Itbecomes a believable thing that
I can I can push myself to go inthat direction. And so I see
that the network that I'mbuilding and have been building
for the last couple of years ismuch more of a collective of
(54:46):
people that are in their sweetspot with a very specific way in
which they show up and helpbecause then referrals become so
much easier.
Anna Stumpf (54:56):
Well that's trust to like how important that is
right like That's really themagic key that opens all the
doors was when you trust someoneand their consistency and their
heart and you know, they're intheir joy build spot, and
they're gonna pull that out ofother people. Like that's
important. That's to me. That'sthe difference of like, well,
let me Google and see if we canfind somebody or I have a
(55:19):
collective of people that Itrust that I would have you talk
to, like, that feels good. Andit's good for you, too. Yeah.
All right. How are things withthe family? Can Do you think if
we talk to them, they wouldnotice a difference in you in
the last six months to a year?
Josh Brammer (55:40):
Yeah, I think that they are seeing a lot more joy
come out in my life. And sothat's a continual process. You
know, I know that they, theyknow that I like to focus and
they know that I like to, towork hard. But I am finding that
the more joy that I can bringinto other clients, the more I
(56:06):
kind of take that spark out intolife outside. And so that I
think that that's, that's a goodthing to watch as a family.
Anna Stumpf (56:16):
It's amazing. It's gotta be great. Does it feel? Do
you feel guilty? Sometimes whenyou get in that joy? Because you
hadn't had it for a while? Like,does it feel like
Josh Brammer (56:25):
oh, no, I don't feel guilty about it. I feel, if
anything, I feel remorse thatlike when somebody when
somebody, you know, gets newsfrom the doctor, and they go,
oh, I need to start eatinghealthy. I look back I go, What
if I had just eaten healthy forthe last 10 years? Like, how
much better would I have feltthe whole
Anna Stumpf (56:44):
time? Like you're giving your body the right oil
and nutrients? And you're like,Oh, this is how this is supposed
to feel?
Josh Brammer (56:50):
Right? So. So once you get into your sweet spot, I
think there's just so muchrelief. And then if anything,
it's it's a little bit of, youknow, sadness that you look back
and go, Why didn't I just makethese decisions sooner?
Anna Stumpf (57:03):
Right. But I think what's beautiful about what you
do is you have historicallythrough seasons of your life,
funneled that into, like how youcan show up and help people not
do that, right. Like yourecognize where they are, and
you recognize what they'refeeling. And you think, Oh, I
know, I know what you need rightnow. All right, my friend I've
learned so I knew this is goingto be so fascinating. After our
(57:26):
last conversation, which again,was a long time ago, I knew
you'd only gotten more committedto making these changes in your
life. And I always learn thingsfrom you. And I'm just
incredibly inspired by yourpassion, and clarity. I know
that comes at a cost. But it'sdefinitely got to be one of your
superpowers. People can find youon LinkedIn. And your website is
(57:54):
Hello lantern dot Hellolantern.com. And there is a
plethora of information and waysto get you for speaking
engagements, workshops,coaching, and business coaching.
There's a group that you haveyou have individual coaching,
you will do copywritingsessions. There's just there's
(58:14):
so much good information on thewebsite on different ways you
can engage with Josh and get allof the inspiration or
collaboration really looks likesome of those groups are full,
but there are waitlists, sodifferent ways to engage with
you. Thank you so much for yourtime today. I know, it's
probably your most preciouselement that you're trying to
(58:36):
preserve and protect. And Iappreciate you spending an hour
of it with us. Yeah, it was sogreat to connect. Yeah, this was
dual purpose. I got to catch upwith you. But I get to tell the
world too. So it's kind of nice.
Josh Brammer (58:49):
Yeah, it was so much fun. Yeah, good.
Anna Stumpf (59:02):
It's the conclusion of another great episode. And
you know what that means? Webelieve in the power of
practical wisdom. That's why atthe end of every episode, we
propose the collectivechallenge. This is a small
actionable step for you tointegrate these lessons learned
into your daily life. So ourcollective challenge after
speaking with Josh is to reallyreflect on your current
(59:23):
professional role or business.
Identify one aspect that alignswith your strengths, interests
and passion or as Josh calledit, your sweet spot, and then
try and commit to focusing yourenergy and nurturing and
expanding that aspect over thenext week. And maybe as you
think about what your sweet spotmight be, maybe you don't have
one handy or a natural, organicsweet spot. If that's the case,
(59:49):
then maybe focus on one aspectof your professional life where
you feel stuck or unfulfilled.
And then take a small actionablestep toward Addressing this
area, something simple likescheduling the conversation with
a mentor, checking out andfinding like a short online
course, to develop a skill thatmaybe you're passionate about,
(01:00:11):
or dedicating just time toreflect could be journaling on
your career goals and writingthem down finding those gaps.
What you're really wanting to dois take some proactive steps
towards your personal andprofessional development and
make sure you have a sense ofprogress or self awareness or
movement forward, that you'refinding. Hope that works, keep
(01:00:32):
in touch, send an email throughthe website at collective energy
coach.com contact form. And letme know how these are going. I
would love to hear how yourcollective challenges are going.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of collective energy
conversations. Today's storiesand insights are just the
(01:00:55):
beginning of our collectiveexploration into the vast
landscape of personal andprofessional development. If
today's conversation inspiredyou please share this episode
with your friends, family orcolleagues who also might find
value in our collective wisdom.
Your sharing helps us grow andexpand our community. We'd love
to hear your thoughts andexperiences. Connect with us on
LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram,at threads at collective energy
(01:01:17):
coach, and check out our websiteat WWW dot collective energy
coach.com and become part of thecollective. Until next time,
keep growing, keep connectingand keep sharing your story
because every voice matters inthe journey of growth. I'm Dr.
Anna Stumpf, and this has beencollective energy conversations
(01:01:38):
where we elevate growth throughshared stories.
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