October 25, 2024 • 44 mins
This is the first of two episodes that will highlight the topic of Global Indigeneity and the role of art in these spaces. In these episodes, we examine the interconnectedness of Indigenous communities worldwide and focus on artist-run initiatives and residencies as powerful platforms for cultural exchange and collaboration. Moving beyond the Western and global Northern-centric narratives, the conversation reasserts the shared histories, values, and interests among Indigenous communities in regions like Central Asia, the Middle East, and others that have been historically marginalized.
Our first guest is Clementine Bordeaux, an artist and scholar, and an enrolled member of the Sičáŋǧu Lakótapi (Rosebud Sioux Tribe), who grew up on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. Clementine received a PhD in Culture and Performance from the World Arts and Cultures/Dance program at UCLA. She is currently a University of California President's and Andrew W. Mellon Foundation Postdoctoral Fellow. In Fall 2025, Clementine will join the History of Art and Visual Culture department at UC Santa Cruz. Clementine is also involved with Racing Magpie - a Lakota-centric arts and culture organization in Rapid City, South Dakota. Racing Magpie accomplishes this through affordable studios, a Native art gallery, arts and cultural programming, innovative collaborations, and creative community space.
Clementine was also part of the inaugural group of Indigenous artists from North America invited to join the Nomadic Art Camp in Kyrgyzstan in fall 2024. The 12-day residency was founded by Shaarbek Amankul, a multidisciplinary artist and the Founder/Director of Б’Art Contemporary, based in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is your message to artists and people who are
trying to support art, reallyneed to support artists and
creative practice, because Ithink there's ways that we can
express ourselves, that we candemonstrate solidarity in a
multitude of ways, and that isreally grounding our art
practice in who we are as tribalpeople, not catering it to a
(00:22):
global audience, because I thinkwhen we ground it in who we are
and we have these collaborativespaces, tribal people will
recognize tribal people.
So there isn't a need to haveto homogenize our viewpoint and
our audience and in that thenwe're able, I think, able to
(00:42):
recognize and see when anothertribal person, another
Indigenous person, is imaginingor reimagining their future.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
First Peoples Fund presents the Collective Spirit
Podcast.
The Collective Spirit moveseach of us to stand up and make
a difference, to pass onancestral knowledge and simply
extend a hand of generosity.
The Collective Spirit podcastfeatures Native artists and
culture bearers who discuss thepower of Indigenous art and
(01:17):
culture.
Hello, it's good to see you too.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm Clementine Bordeaux and I'm from Pine Ridge
and I currently live in RapidCity, south Dakota, and that's
basically just what I said.
But I also am an enrolledmember of the Sitchangu Oyate,
or, you know, more commonlyknown as the Rosebud Sioux Tribe
.
I'm also a postdoctoral fellowwith the University of
(02:04):
California Riverside and I'll bestarting a faculty position at
UC Santa Cruz in fall of 2025.
So I'll be leaving Rapid Cityand moving back to California.
So I'm excited to have theconversation and it's always
good to chat with you, heidi.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Welcome and thank you for joining us today.
This particular episode of theArt Collective Spirit podcast is
an opportunity for us to talkabout and explore the concept of
global indigeneity and art as acatalyst for change, for
inciting dialogue and for reallybridging and connecting
Indigenous people from beyondour own homelands and
territorial boundaries.
As we get started in thisparticular episode, I'd like you
(02:53):
to provide your definition andhow you understand global
indigeneity.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I think I would define global indigeneity as
recognizing a common thread inthe way that tribal communities
operate and understand the worldand epistemological viewpoints,
(03:22):
because I think there's waysthat we are forever impacted by
settler colonialism andcolonization, and so for me it's
finding those connections whereour tribal communities across
the globe have demonstrated acontinuum.
And you know, that might lookdifferent depending on the
(03:45):
region, but I think there's likea common thread that we can see
between communities that arestill hanging on to these ways
of knowing and seeing the world.
And that's what I mean when Isay ontological or
epistemological, right, like howwe understand something about
the world and why we understandit that way.
(04:05):
So the how and why, right.
And so I think there's there'ssomething about Indigenous
communities that we can see thiscontinuum of thought, but it
shifts and morphs as time goesand that usually is, you know,
not to homogenize or flatten,but usually is a connection with
place, a connection with otherthan human kin.
(04:28):
So how do we understand arelationship with land, with
water, with animals, with spiritI usually don't use that word,
but right, how we'reunderstanding kind of a
emotional and mental connectionthat may go beyond a global
North kind of settler notion.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Thank you for sharing that.
Clementine, I know that youregularly participate in events,
conferences, panel discussions,many other things that cause
you to do a lot of traveling,sometimes taking you abroad and
among global Indigenouscommunities as you just
described.
Can you share a bit of yourexperience and how that supports
(05:10):
your definition of globalIndigeneity, but also share a
bit on how you also realize thatthe experiences of global
Indigenous people often mirrorsthe challenges that we as Native
people experience in what isknown as the United States?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, I think one of my first experiences outside of
a North American context, I hadthe fortune of having a mentor
in grad school, nancy Meifel,who invited me to join her on a
trip to Norway and that's rarefor a faculty to invite a grad
student.
I was really.
Nancy was like pumped.
She's, you know, wanted tosupport grad students and so I
traveled with her to Tromso andshe was invited by some artists
(05:55):
and curators who are trying tohave this conversation about,
and right, we're up up there,way north and um, there was a
young Sami woman who took us, um, they have, you know,
relationships with the land in aparticular way and they took us
to this big rock and she waslike this rock is significant
(06:20):
and right, they've lost a lotbecause they all Sami people
also experience kind of a, asimilar scoop.
That happened, you know, totheir communities, where they
were young children were takenfrom their families, and she was
like but I'm going to yoink foryou and she's like I'm thinking
of one, and so she yoinks forus next to this rock and I was,
(06:42):
and that was a moment where Iwas like whoa, we all love rocks
.
No, but just, you know, justunderstanding like, across all
these time and places, like westill are hanging on and
remembering and and andpracticing these relationships
with place, and then, of course,most recently, with our trip to
(07:09):
Kyrgyzstan, I just again likethis appreciation and this
relationship with rock.
So, as you know, we met anartist who was also a healer and
he had all these rocks in hisart gallery and in his studio
and around his building and Iliterally just wanted to spend
time with every single rock,like just pick it up and say
(07:31):
hello, because very similar.
Here, you know, in Ocheti,shakoing territory, we have a
lot of stories about rocks andwe have, you know, used rocks
for many different things, rocks, and we have, you know, used
rocks for many different things,and so it's just, it's moments
like that where I, just you, you, start to see the ways that we
all imagine our relationshipsand and continue those
(07:55):
relationships with what awestern world might see as
inanimate but is very muchanimate to us.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I guess, on that note you, one of the things that we
had talked about is sort of thepower or the strength of these
types of initiatives that areartist-run, that are happening
in direct relationship withcommunity.
I know you mentioned that wehad participated in this
residency in Kyrgyzstan and thatyou'd had this really
(08:24):
incredible experience and soforth.
I'm wondering if you couldshare a little bit about artist
run initiatives and how have youseen these platforms enable
dialogue and collaboration amongindigenous communities across
different parts of the world?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
a really powerful way that those of us who are, you
know, a part of, are in incollaboration with creative
practice, when we are able tolead the conversation about what
we want done in and for ourcommunity.
It's.
It's a really great experienceand I have I'm blessed to have a
really awesome sister.
So I have a sister, maryBordeaux, and her husband, peter
(09:10):
Strong, co-founded a artistspace here in Rapid City called
Racing Magpie and it reallycenters Ocheti, shokoi artists,
so Lakota, dakota, nakotaartists in the region, and
Racing Magpie has, like studiospace, gallery space.
They're just getting ready tostart renovating a building to
(09:34):
expand community space and havemore workshop space and it's
really exciting to not.
I mean, of course, you know weall are on soft money, so we
have, we apply for grants, weget grants, we do what we can,
but it's also really excitingjust to see a space that doesn't
(09:56):
always have to be be beholdento somebody else and to really,
if they need, if they see a need, they can fill a need, and
really trying to listen tocommunity artists and rural
artists.
I think that's the other thingthat I really appreciated about
our experience in Kyrgyzstan andI know you're going to be
(10:19):
talking with Sharbek, who is thefounder of the Nomadic Art Camp
there, with Sharbeck, who's thefounder of the Nomadic Art Camp
there, but again, like he justis able to be, like I know these
artists and I'm going to driveother artists around the
mountains and visit and havethese conversations and not
really, you know, the end goalis just to have an experience,
and I think that's kind ofsometimes the difference.
(10:42):
There's not always X, y, z thatyou have to accomplish, but are
often trying to just be in themoment and come to know things
together, as opposed to reallytrying to have, like that lofty
end goal that often the globalnorth is pushing us to do right,
which is the result ofcapitalism let's produce
(11:04):
something.
But it's like sometimes we justneed that experience, we need to
spend time together becausehistorically that's what we
would have done, and of coursethere are end goals when we
spend time together.
But I think when with artistsrun initiatives, sometimes it's
being able to just be togetherand experience things together.
So I just I'm glad that I'vebeen able to have those
(11:28):
experiences, because it'ssometimes the complete opposite
of academia.
You're constantly having toproduce, you're, you know,
shape-shifting into these spacesto ensure that you have funding
, that you're networkingappropriately, and not that the
art world's not like that either.
Of course, we have thoseexperiences here too, but I
(11:49):
think it's really important tohighlight that there are so many
, you know, artists-runinitiatives that are coming into
their own and developing thesecollaborative spaces, these
collaborative spaces.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thank you for sharing that.
You mentioned the idea ofdecentering the global North and
Western perspectives.
Can you explain how these artinitiatives contribute to
reasserting Indigenousperspectives and systems of
knowledge that support the shiftaway from Western dominance?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I think for, like marginalized voices.
We really need to be firm inwho our audience is.
I'm coming from this mindsetthat I'm tired of worrying about
(12:46):
what the Western art world orthe global North says about
tribal people, and I really am,and even in my own research,
like I'm really trying to focuson everyday artists, you know,
the artists that are creatingpieces for each other, for their
(13:09):
family, for their community,for myself.
I think all these things haveto happen simultaneously.
We do need artists who have thefortitude to be in those elite,
elite spaces.
I'm doing air quotes aroundelite, around those in those
(13:30):
elite spaces.
Right, yes, we need thosepeople.
It's like all hands on deck.
But maybe that's another aspectof like global indigeneity is
that our we don't separate ourcreative practice and artistic
practice from our everyday lifeand not to say that artists who
are in elite spaces are doingthat.
But we also need to remind ourrelatives that they're artists
(13:55):
as well, that you don't have tobe showing at some fancy gallery
to be considered an artist, andI think that's one thing that
artists initially, especially ina rural context it's really
important that we'rehighlighting our uncles that
make bags for everyone at thepowwow are like are repairing
everyone's moccasins, likethere's so many ways that we
(14:18):
have artists in our families andour communities that make a
living off of that but aren'thighlighted in the same way.
And I think that's one thing.
Like I think about KeithBraveheart, and he's been.
He's shifted to creating anartist collective on Pine Ridge
and it's really cool to see allthis, all the they've been doing
these drawing workshops rightand he's highlighting a lot of
(14:41):
his former students who areexcellent painters and drawers,
but now he's like trying to helpthem, mentor them to be
teachers.
So I think those types ofspaces help us de-center Western
and global North sentiments andlike re-center tribal ideology.
(15:01):
That's really important, Ithink, to kind of reclaim that
and be like we've always donethis right.
We don't need some authority totell us that it's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I want to talk a little bit about cultural
exchange through art.
You know art has been a toolfor cultural expression and
resistance.
How do you believe artisticcollaboration can serve as a
bridge to connect Indigenouscommunities globally,
particularly those in regionslike Central Asia, the Middle
East and beyond?
And also, I guess in that framewe're considering, or folding
(15:38):
in, how Indigenous communitiesplay into that?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I think art's going to save the world.
I think artists help us imaginenew worlds and new ways of
seeing the world.
I think in a tribal contextalso is like pragmatic we need
to make things that are sturdyand last a long time and aren't
as precious as the global Northmakes art.
(16:04):
And I think when we do theseartistic collaborations, we're
also learning from each otherabout what is pragmatic and
beautiful to somebody else.
That isn't centering elite,precious spaces right, we're not
(16:27):
centering like what's going tomake us the most money and right
.
And that's also it's hard tohave that conversation because
we often come from communitiesthat are in dire need and
sometimes need to make money.
And so I think when we're ableto have the time and space to
(16:47):
pause and learn from each other,then we can imagine a more
liberated future.
Liberated future I don't meanto sound idealistic or like
romanticize this, but I think itreally like if everyone had
(17:08):
some type of creative practice,I think we would revolt much
sooner than is going to happen.
And I think that, right, we'reseeing that with like college
campuses, where the students whowe see going to higher
education as a privilege, we seestudents who are having the
time and space to thinkcritically and are dissatisfied
with what is happening.
And I think the same thing ifmore people had.
(17:29):
And again, right, this is likebattling against capitalism and
the capitalist push to produceand reproduce and make money and
pay bills.
But imagine if we all had timeto just make things together.
I think we would bedissatisfied with the way that
capitalism is ruining our lives.
But we don't ever have thattime to stop and think about it.
(17:52):
And I think art and artisticcollaboration can bridge that
gap between Indigenouscommunities, especially so many
communities that arehistorically dispossessed and
historically oppressed by empire.
And so I really think we Awould just learn cool things,
(18:14):
right?
I don't come from a communitythat weaves.
I mean, we weave quill work,but that's like cool things,
right.
I don't come from a communitythat weaves.
I mean, we weave quill work,but that's like teeny, tiny,
right.
So I just like imagine learningweaving, you know, from Kanaka,
mali, or you know, I think aboutCalifornia basket makers and
vice versa.
Like, come to Northern Plains,we'll teach you how to tan big
(18:35):
giant hides, you know.
I think there's so much justpracticality, because I think
also embedded in that creativepractice is again those
ontological and epistemologicalrelationships.
So then we could start to seethose connections and how we're
really grounded in specificplaces and grounded in specific
mountains, and grounded inspecific rivers, and learning
(19:00):
that from each other and knowingthat there are relatives all
across the globe that take careof us, and relatives in the
sense of like the land and theanimals, and we can learn that
from each other.
And that would I think that allcomes out of creative practice.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned just on a
really like basic level thatcreating the space to have these
types of collaborativeexchanges with one another.
People can share knowledge, youknow practices from your
community with other folks fromother communities and then by
doing that you're like workingwith one another and those
(19:40):
spaces are becoming moredisparate, like we're working on
a very like individual,isolated levels more and more
and more every day.
And I was also thinking too,based on what you shared.
You know the arts largelyhumanities in general are always
like the first thing to go likein budgets and in curriculum
and in programming.
(20:00):
The value of that is diminishedlargely by folks that are
making those types of decisions.
But I also think that theyactually understand the value of
that because if we're inconversation with one another
then, like you said, like arthas the capacity to potentially
incite revolution and if we'rein conversation with each other,
(20:21):
then revolution can happen.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's obviously like not what they want Very scary
for those in power.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I think you just really nailed all of that
on the head really well,honestly.
So I'm wondering then, also interms of resilience and
collective emergence fromcolonialism you're not being
naive to the fact that a lot ofIndigenous communities,
regionally and also globally,are still grappling with effects
of colonialism and imperialismand so on.
(20:53):
Can you talk about how artisticcollaboration across the
borders empower thesecommunities to reclaim their
identity and build thatresilience that you're talking
about?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, I think this might be a controversial
statement.
I have a lot of colleagues whoare very disgruntled with the
popularity of ribbon skirts, thepopularity of ribbon skirts.
But I also think that there'sthis conversation about how we
historicize ourselves visuallyand how we try to embrace, like
(21:26):
a present day aesthetic andright.
And I don't.
I'm not like advocating thateveryone wear a ribbon skirt,
but I think dismissing would notbe able to wear otherwise.
Like I think about coming.
I'm not going to wear a ribbonskirt, but I think dismissing
would not be able to wearotherwise.
Like I think about coming.
I'm not gonna wear buckskineverywhere.
I don't want to.
It's like it, you know.
(21:47):
And another time period, yes,it would probably be more
practical, but like now we havenew materials and so I will wear
a ribbon skirt or, you know, myribbon pants, because I want to
visually like signal, like I'man Indigenous person and I
should be able to express myselfas such.
(22:08):
I can't imagine right, likewearing a grass skirt, a
beautifully woven grass skirt,right, and having your tatas out
and like right, like where'sthe practicality in present day?
Right, because we've inheritedall of this crap from
(22:29):
colonialism and we have tograpple with it, and so I think
there needs to be a way to thinkof these things more so as an
artistic collaboration acrosscommunities, as opposed to like
flattening it to laziness andand policing each other.
I think that's the other thingthat happens often when we see a
(22:52):
global indigenous phenomenonlike a ribbon skirt and people
being like well, we didn't wearthat.
I'm like yeah, we also didn'twear jeans and Nikes.
So like, why can't we find waysto express ourselves as tribal
people through contemporarymaterials and contemporary means
(23:12):
?
Because at some point in time,everything we did was
contemporary and that's just oneexample, right, like I said,
I'm not advocating that everyonewear a ribbon skirt, but I also
don't think we should bepolicing each other on how we're
choosing to express ourselves,if it just so happens to be a
(23:36):
part of like fashion phenomena,because I also think we could
encourage each other again tospecify in those ribbon skirts
where you come from, right, youknow I've seen Choctaw weaving
designs and ribbons.
You know, I've seen I just thinkabout the amazing like MMIW
(23:57):
skirts, ribbon skirts that havecome out, or even just any type
of ribbon work in the woodlandsarea.
I think we can push each otherto bring that specificity to
this global experience.
And I think that's one way thatwe're grappling with that, um,
(24:21):
which is very different, I think, very different than and not to
dismiss our fashion designersthat are out there, but, right,
like a ribbon skirt, I think,feels a little bit more
accessible than paying, you know, hundreds of dollars for a
replicated polyester skirt.
I would rather have, like, mypolyester ribbon skirt, you know
(24:45):
.
But I think that's one way wecan think about how are we
grappling with, like this, thishomogenization that happens with
global indigeneity, while alsotrying to bring some specificity
to that artistic practice andto me, like a ribbon skirt is
one example of that and maybe bea little bit more gentle with
(25:09):
each other about, like, whochooses to wear a skirt.
And when I recently saw aFacebook post where this young
woman had been at an event onher campus and she went to
Walmart to, you know, finishshopping for the evening to go
home, and some elderly, nativewomen made fun of her for having
(25:31):
her ribbon skirt on in Walmart,and I was like, who cares?
Like we don't know where shewas, you know, and I just think
about this policing about timeand space and kind of trapping
ourselves in these protocolsthat harm us more so than
(25:52):
liberate us, and how do we havethese conversations about?
Yeah, no-transcript yeah,totally.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's interesting because I think about like the
men's ribbon shirt and forwhatever reason, like that never
gets any flack.
Like pablo men wear it.
Like anishinaabe men wear it.
Everyone wears it, alaskaprobably.
Which right we?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
could, we could say is also this like Alaska,
probably Right.
We could say is also this likegendering, that we've inherited,
that we need to police womenand their bodies, depression,
and and then men just can dowhatever they want, and that
we've inherited that from from,from colonialism, right, like,
(26:54):
historically, most most of of usnot to flatten us, but most of
us come from, you knowmatrilineal societies, so it
would be women making thosedecisions and saying what looked
good and not.
I just think about the, theocheti.
There was a group of likelakota men that came back with
those beaver skin top hats andall the women were like those
(27:15):
are so ugly and plain and thendecorated them, you know.
So it was the women who weredeciding what looked good or not
, men getting to wear ribbonshirts whenever they want.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, totally, and I really like how you added this
thing about being gentle to oneanother because you see it
across the board.
You know, in all of ourcommunities when folks are
trying to, especially likeyounger generations are trying
to reconnect with community andperhaps even learning our
language, learning, you know,whatever our community customs
(27:50):
may be and cultural practices,you know it can be really
stressful and I know in mycommunity often people can feel
shamed out for saying somethingwrong in our language, the
Navajo Nation, and those kind ofmoments really discourage folks
from wanting to activelycontinue to go down the path of
(28:11):
learning and participating incommunity and staying connected,
you know.
So, yeah, I'm glad that youmentioned, you know, just being
gentle with one another andreally thinking is it really
worth it to, you know, shamesomeone out over a ribbon skirt?
I think there are many otherthings that are really
problematic in our communitythat we could shame out, and I
(28:33):
don't know that a ribbon skirtis one of those things.
What practical steps can betaken to strengthen solidarity
among Indigenous communitiesglobally, especially those that
have been historicallymarginalized and isolated from
one another, and I'm thinking inparticular, communities that we
also never really learned aboutuntil, perhaps, we went to
college.
(28:53):
And even if you did go tocollege, there's a high chance
that if you didn't take sometype of history class or
something, you also maybe didn'teven learn it there, unless you
met folks who were from theseplaces abroad.
What are your thoughts on howwe, as Indigenous folks, can
engage with global communities,care about the issues that are
impacting them and really youknow, form bonds and identify
(29:17):
them as kin?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, I think, first and foremost, that we shouldn't
treat each other like tourists.
I think they're right.
We have been conditioned to putourselves on display for
Western, global North audienceand so often, right, when we're
(29:49):
trying to connect with othertribal or Indigenous people,
with other tribal or indigenouspeople, we tend to fall back on
that trend of like, well, here'sall my wounds and let's pour
salt in them.
And I and right, because we'rewe're used to trying to to make
(30:10):
non-native people feel somethingfor us.
And I think we need to remember, right, if we're thinking about
a global indigeneity, that weall understand that pain and
that we have to find a way towash the wound instead of
opening it back up.
(30:37):
And the ways we can do thatright is to not assume that,
just because you don't know myspecific history, right, maybe
you don't know about the FortLaramie Treaty of 1868.
Maybe you don't know about theWounded Knee Massacre or Wounded
Knee, 1973, but I canunderstand that another tribal
(31:02):
group probably has experiencedthe same historical trauma that
my community has, and whetherthat is a mission system that
enslaved most of the populationor, you know, an overthrow of a
kingdom, right, and being ableto build solidarity across what
we've been able to bring with uson the continuum rather than
(31:39):
the pain, right?
What are the?
What is the art?
What is the?
What are the songs?
What are the kinship systemsright?
I would rather you you know,heidi, I remember telling you
Lakota means ally, that's how wesaw each other.
Like I would rather you treatme like an ally and not a
tourist, and not to say I don'twant to do all the fun things
(32:01):
that tourists can do, like I'llvisit all your cool touristy
spots in your homelands.
But, I also want to like meetyour grandma and like have soup
at her house.
You know not to put that burdenon your grandma, but you know
what I mean.
Like show me how you would showyour cousin and how do we
replicate that kind of trend?
But it also means that we haveto show up as invited guests and
(32:30):
not as settlers, and that isalso on.
There needs to be a reciprocalrelationship in how we're trying
to understand and strengthenour communication across these
global spaces.
Don't show up as a tourist, showup as an invited guest, right.
Those are, I think, two verydifferent perspectives of how
we're entering this space.
So that also means like, ifyou're showing up to someone
(32:52):
else's house like you're goingto offer to do the dishes,
you're going to like put thingsaway and not just expect to be
catered to, and vice versa,right, you're inviting someone
into your home in an intimateway, and home in the broad sense
of the word.
You don't have to.
You know, show the like I said,you don't have to show the
wounds, like.
You can also have a differenttype of conversation, I think.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
You know, I think one of the things that perhaps a
lot of people in the US contextdon't realize is that a lot of
global communities they actuallyknow more about us from a
historical and contemporaryperspective than our own fellow
countrymen.
That was always my experienceAlso, like in Turkey, for
example, I felt like Turkishpeople were really hip and
(33:40):
knowing about exactly whathappened to us, and so there was
an immediate kinship theyestablished once they knew that
I was also Native.
What are the things that we cando to sort of break down those
types of barriers and alsocreate more sustainable
long-term relationships betweenNative folks and sort of our
(34:00):
global Indigenous brothers andsisters?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
That's a really challenging one, I'll admit, and
I think about it in the senseof how would I convince my
parents to care?
Right, my parents are from theboomer generation and
experienced boarding school andhave been advocates for tribal
(34:27):
education here in the state ofSouth Dakota.
And it's, how would I frame itfor them?
Right, because it's veryinsular their point of view, and
not in a bad way, but right,they've been taught to really
focus on their own tribalnations and have inherited this
kind of and I think we also havein our generation, even like
(34:53):
this kind of oppression Olympics.
Well, we've had it worse.
Right, and I think it'srecognizing that drive to not
pay attention or to not worryabout another tribal community
(35:14):
across the globe is againstemming from capitalism and the
individualism that we inheritedover the last 500 years and and
that that also, this moment intime, is like a blip in time.
Right, like, like 500 years isnot a long time if we think
(35:36):
about how old the planet is.
And here we are, like, how didwe paint ourselves in the corner
paying taxes, like that's whatwe did with the earth?
Like we're gonna pay taxes,right, cause we, and I just
think how, and that's thechallenge that's I mean that's a
large part of what I've triedto study in school is like, how
(35:58):
do we teach about thedifferences across race, class
and gender and how these are allsystems that have been created
to marginalize people, tooppress people.
And then when you throw in themix like indigeneity, then it's
like we scare everyone, right,and so maybe it's.
(36:23):
It's recognizing, like who isbeing painted as the villain or
the terrorist, when really we'veall been painted that way at
one point in time, right, Ithink about the way the water
protectors at Standing Rock werepainted as terrorists, but we
knew, right, they're fightingfor our water, they're fighting
(36:44):
for land and clean water foreveryone, right?
And the same way, like who inthese global conflicts with
Indigenous communities, who'sbeing painted as the villain?
Who's getting support fromempire?
I think those are ways thatI've tried to draw parallels.
For those who might notunderstand these connections
(37:05):
between Indigenous communities,who, you know, may not look as
tribal as we do or may not bethe same type of oppressed as we
are, I try to signal to likewho's getting support from
empire, meaning the global Northentities like the United States
, who's getting that support andwho's being painted as a
terrorist.
You know, tribal people,especially in North America,
(37:28):
have always been painted asterrorists at one point or time.
Like I think that that's oneway I think we can at least draw
attention to that.
For me it's also because I loveconversations about land and
place who's protecting the olivetrees?
Those are the conversationslike who's protecting the trees
versus who's destroying them,and I think that's a really apt
(37:52):
way to recognize and have thoseconversations about solidarity
(38:14):
maybe some long-term things thatwe might consider.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How can we, collectively, or how can we
individually, continue to upliftand support global indigeneity
and these sort of crosscollaborations in art?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I think one way again , it's like this all hands on
deck kind of mentality that weneed people in our communities,
of course, who are solely justfocused on your tribal community
.
And then I think there areindividuals like you and I who
take up the task of being a partof these global conversations
(38:46):
and while also keeping who weare as tribal people very close
to us and not giving in to thatflattening of culture.
And I think, right, we needboth.
We need people who are solelyfocused on our tribal
communities, because there'salso not enough of us.
And then there's individual, Ithink, folks like us who are
(39:07):
ready to be in those spaces andoften be in uncomfortable spaces
.
I think that's the other partabout the future is that we are
going to be very uncomfortableat times.
I also think the decolonizationprocess is going to be really
challenging, like colonizationwas very violent and so
sometimes the future might holda little bit of violence in how
(39:30):
we're untangling from empire, inhow we're untangling from
empire.
And again, that's why we reallyneed to support artists and
creative practice, because Ithink there's ways that we can
express ourselves, that we candemonstrate solidarity in a
multitude of ways, and that isone really grounding our art
(39:52):
practice in who we are as tribalpeople, not catering it to a
global audience.
Because I think when we groundit in who we are and we have
these collaborative spaces,tribal people will recognize
tribal people.
So there isn't a need to haveto homogenize our viewpoint and
our audience and in that thenwe're able, I think, able to
(40:17):
recognize and see when anothertribal person, another
Indigenous person is imaginingor reimagining their future,
because then it doesn't have toalso be historicized.
I think we should also upliftthings that maybe we make us
uncomfortable, in the sense thatmaybe they're using new
(40:39):
material, maybe they have a newsubject matter.
When art is grounded in aspecific tribal ways of knowing
the world, I think it's veryreflective in the practice and
you don't have to explain it andthen you can recognize those
things across community, even ifit's different colonial powers,
(41:00):
but you can see the futureimagining from different people,
different artists, and howthey're dreaming of something
(41:22):
different.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Clementine, thank you so much for sharing all of that
.
I'd like to give you the chancenow to touch upon anything else
that you feel supports thislarger conversation that we've
had today on global indigeneityand the necessity of engaging
with Indigenous people beyondour own borders, and also the
(41:47):
importance and the role ofcritical in these conversations,
but also I think we need aconversation about criticality
and that being critical doesn'tmean I'm not going to support
you and I think that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Especially across a global Indigenous context is
like we're human, we could be alittle judgy, but that doesn't
mean I'm not going to supportyou.
Sometimes being critical iscoming from a place of care and
concern and trying to find abalance between gossiping and
being like huh, I wonder whatthey're thinking through.
(42:27):
Who are they thinking throughwith?
And again, like coming from astandpoint of of kinship.
And you know, we don't have tobe in relation with everyone.
Some people are harmful, somepeople are so like embedded in
(42:54):
to reach them, and we don't haveto be in relationship with
everyone, but maybe give peoplethe benefit of the doubt and
start trying to approach eachother as relational.
And how can we ensure thatwe're not reacting out of fear
and that we're trying to beproactive, out of care?
And that's hard right.
That's very, very challengingto do and I try to challenge
(43:16):
myself to do that all the time,because I could be very critical
and I could have a lot ofjudgment and passive
aggressiveness, but at the endof the day.
I just want Indigenous peopleto be successful and I want
Indigenous people to be caredfor and that, realizing that we
all make mistakes.
And so how do we ensure thatpeople can get back up when they
(43:41):
do make a mistake?
And that also means don't workin isolation.
That's the other part.
I'm like reach out to people,create a network of care.
Like find people who are goingto support you, find people who
are going to challenge you.
That's the other thing.
Like I'm, I feel like I'malways constantly checking in
with my sister or other folkswhen I'm like is this okay?
(44:04):
Am I doing?
Like, am I being, you know, notwell.
Like I think there's somethingin trying to trying to find
those networks of care that willchallenge us, but also make
sure that we get back up when wemake a mistake is to honor and
(44:39):
support Indigenous artists andculture bearers through
grant-making initiatives,culturally rooted programming,
and training and mentorship.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Learn more at firstpeoplesfundorg.
What is your message to artists and people who are
trying to support art, reallyneed to support artists and
creative practice, because Ithink there's ways that we can
express ourselves, that we candemonstrate solidarity in a
multitude of ways, and that isreally grounding our art
practice in who we are as tribalpeople, not catering it to a
(00:22):
global audience, because I thinkwhen we ground it in who we are
and we have these collaborativespaces, tribal people will
recognize tribal people.
So there isn't a need to haveto homogenize our viewpoint and
our audience and in that thenwe're able, I think, able to
(00:42):
recognize and see when anothertribal person, another
Indigenous person, is imaginingor reimagining their future.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
First Peoples Fund presents the Collective Spirit
Podcast.
The Collective Spirit moveseach of us to stand up and make
a difference, to pass onancestral knowledge and simply
extend a hand of generosity.
The Collective Spirit podcastfeatures Native artists and
culture bearers who discuss thepower of Indigenous art and
(01:17):
culture.
Hello, it's good to see you too.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm Clementine Bordeaux and I'm from Pine Ridge
and I currently live in RapidCity, south Dakota, and that's
basically just what I said.
But I also am an enrolledmember of the Sitchangu Oyate,
or, you know, more commonlyknown as the Rosebud Sioux Tribe
.
I'm also a postdoctoral fellowwith the University of
(02:04):
California Riverside and I'll bestarting a faculty position at
UC Santa Cruz in fall of 2025.
So I'll be leaving Rapid Cityand moving back to California.
So I'm excited to have theconversation and it's always
good to chat with you, heidi.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Welcome and thank you for joining us today.
This particular episode of theArt Collective Spirit podcast is
an opportunity for us to talkabout and explore the concept of
global indigeneity and art as acatalyst for change, for
inciting dialogue and for reallybridging and connecting
Indigenous people from beyondour own homelands and
territorial boundaries.
As we get started in thisparticular episode, I'd like you
(02:53):
to provide your definition andhow you understand global
indigeneity.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I think I would define global indigeneity as
recognizing a common thread inthe way that tribal communities
operate and understand the worldand epistemological viewpoints,
(03:22):
because I think there's waysthat we are forever impacted by
settler colonialism andcolonization, and so for me it's
finding those connections whereour tribal communities across
the globe have demonstrated acontinuum.
And you know, that might lookdifferent depending on the
(03:45):
region, but I think there's likea common thread that we can see
between communities that arestill hanging on to these ways
of knowing and seeing the world.
And that's what I mean when Isay ontological or
epistemological, right, like howwe understand something about
the world and why we understandit that way.
(04:05):
So the how and why, right.
And so I think there's there'ssomething about Indigenous
communities that we can see thiscontinuum of thought, but it
shifts and morphs as time goesand that usually is, you know,
not to homogenize or flatten,but usually is a connection with
place, a connection with otherthan human kin.
(04:28):
So how do we understand arelationship with land, with
water, with animals, with spiritI usually don't use that word,
but right, how we'reunderstanding kind of a
emotional and mental connectionthat may go beyond a global
North kind of settler notion.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Thank you for sharing that.
Clementine, I know that youregularly participate in events,
conferences, panel discussions,many other things that cause
you to do a lot of traveling,sometimes taking you abroad and
among global Indigenouscommunities as you just
described.
Can you share a bit of yourexperience and how that supports
(05:10):
your definition of globalIndigeneity, but also share a
bit on how you also realize thatthe experiences of global
Indigenous people often mirrorsthe challenges that we as Native
people experience in what isknown as the United States?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, I think one of my first experiences outside of
a North American context, I hadthe fortune of having a mentor
in grad school, nancy Meifel,who invited me to join her on a
trip to Norway and that's rarefor a faculty to invite a grad
student.
I was really.
Nancy was like pumped.
She's, you know, wanted tosupport grad students and so I
traveled with her to Tromso andshe was invited by some artists
(05:55):
and curators who are trying tohave this conversation about,
and right, we're up up there,way north and um, there was a
young Sami woman who took us, um, they have, you know,
relationships with the land in aparticular way and they took us
to this big rock and she waslike this rock is significant
(06:20):
and right, they've lost a lotbecause they all Sami people
also experience kind of a, asimilar scoop.
That happened, you know, totheir communities, where they
were young children were takenfrom their families, and she was
like but I'm going to yoink foryou and she's like I'm thinking
of one, and so she yoinks forus next to this rock and I was,
(06:42):
and that was a moment where Iwas like whoa, we all love rocks
.
No, but just, you know, justunderstanding like, across all
these time and places, like westill are hanging on and
remembering and and andpracticing these relationships
with place, and then, of course,most recently, with our trip to
(07:09):
Kyrgyzstan, I just again likethis appreciation and this
relationship with rock.
So, as you know, we met anartist who was also a healer and
he had all these rocks in hisart gallery and in his studio
and around his building and Iliterally just wanted to spend
time with every single rock,like just pick it up and say
(07:31):
hello, because very similar.
Here, you know, in Ocheti,shakoing territory, we have a
lot of stories about rocks andwe have, you know, used rocks
for many different things, rocks, and we have, you know, used
rocks for many different things,and so it's just, it's moments
like that where I, just you, you, start to see the ways that we
all imagine our relationshipsand and continue those
(07:55):
relationships with what awestern world might see as
inanimate but is very muchanimate to us.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I guess, on that note you, one of the things that we
had talked about is sort of thepower or the strength of these
types of initiatives that areartist-run, that are happening
in direct relationship withcommunity.
I know you mentioned that wehad participated in this
residency in Kyrgyzstan and thatyou'd had this really
(08:24):
incredible experience and soforth.
I'm wondering if you couldshare a little bit about artist
run initiatives and how have youseen these platforms enable
dialogue and collaboration amongindigenous communities across
different parts of the world?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
a really powerful way that those of us who are, you
know, a part of, are in incollaboration with creative
practice, when we are able tolead the conversation about what
we want done in and for ourcommunity.
It's.
It's a really great experienceand I have I'm blessed to have a
really awesome sister.
So I have a sister, maryBordeaux, and her husband, peter
(09:10):
Strong, co-founded a artistspace here in Rapid City called
Racing Magpie and it reallycenters Ocheti, shokoi artists,
so Lakota, dakota, nakotaartists in the region, and
Racing Magpie has, like studiospace, gallery space.
They're just getting ready tostart renovating a building to
(09:34):
expand community space and havemore workshop space and it's
really exciting to not.
I mean, of course, you know weall are on soft money, so we
have, we apply for grants, weget grants, we do what we can,
but it's also really excitingjust to see a space that doesn't
(09:56):
always have to be be beholdento somebody else and to really,
if they need, if they see a need, they can fill a need, and
really trying to listen tocommunity artists and rural
artists.
I think that's the other thingthat I really appreciated about
our experience in Kyrgyzstan andI know you're going to be
(10:19):
talking with Sharbek, who is thefounder of the Nomadic Art Camp
there, with Sharbeck, who's thefounder of the Nomadic Art Camp
there, but again, like he justis able to be, like I know these
artists and I'm going to driveother artists around the
mountains and visit and havethese conversations and not
really, you know, the end goalis just to have an experience,
and I think that's kind ofsometimes the difference.
(10:42):
There's not always X, y, z thatyou have to accomplish, but are
often trying to just be in themoment and come to know things
together, as opposed to reallytrying to have, like that lofty
end goal that often the globalnorth is pushing us to do right,
which is the result ofcapitalism let's produce
(11:04):
something.
But it's like sometimes we justneed that experience, we need to
spend time together becausehistorically that's what we
would have done, and of coursethere are end goals when we
spend time together.
But I think when with artistsrun initiatives, sometimes it's
being able to just be togetherand experience things together.
So I just I'm glad that I'vebeen able to have those
(11:28):
experiences, because it'ssometimes the complete opposite
of academia.
You're constantly having toproduce, you're, you know,
shape-shifting into these spacesto ensure that you have funding
, that you're networkingappropriately, and not that the
art world's not like that either.
Of course, we have thoseexperiences here too, but I
(11:49):
think it's really important tohighlight that there are so many
, you know, artists-runinitiatives that are coming into
their own and developing thesecollaborative spaces, these
collaborative spaces.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thank you for sharing that.
You mentioned the idea ofdecentering the global North and
Western perspectives.
Can you explain how these artinitiatives contribute to
reasserting Indigenousperspectives and systems of
knowledge that support the shiftaway from Western dominance?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I think for, like marginalized voices.
We really need to be firm inwho our audience is.
I'm coming from this mindsetthat I'm tired of worrying about
(12:46):
what the Western art world orthe global North says about
tribal people, and I really am,and even in my own research,
like I'm really trying to focuson everyday artists, you know,
the artists that are creatingpieces for each other, for their
(13:09):
family, for their community,for myself.
I think all these things haveto happen simultaneously.
We do need artists who have thefortitude to be in those elite,
elite spaces.
I'm doing air quotes aroundelite, around those in those
(13:30):
elite spaces.
Right, yes, we need thosepeople.
It's like all hands on deck.
But maybe that's another aspectof like global indigeneity is
that our we don't separate ourcreative practice and artistic
practice from our everyday lifeand not to say that artists who
are in elite spaces are doingthat.
But we also need to remind ourrelatives that they're artists
(13:55):
as well, that you don't have tobe showing at some fancy gallery
to be considered an artist, andI think that's one thing that
artists initially, especially ina rural context it's really
important that we'rehighlighting our uncles that
make bags for everyone at thepowwow are like are repairing
everyone's moccasins, likethere's so many ways that we
(14:18):
have artists in our families andour communities that make a
living off of that but aren'thighlighted in the same way.
And I think that's one thing.
Like I think about KeithBraveheart, and he's been.
He's shifted to creating anartist collective on Pine Ridge
and it's really cool to see allthis, all the they've been doing
these drawing workshops rightand he's highlighting a lot of
(14:41):
his former students who areexcellent painters and drawers,
but now he's like trying to helpthem, mentor them to be
teachers.
So I think those types ofspaces help us de-center Western
and global North sentiments andlike re-center tribal ideology.
(15:01):
That's really important, Ithink, to kind of reclaim that
and be like we've always donethis right.
We don't need some authority totell us that it's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I want to talk a little bit about cultural
exchange through art.
You know art has been a toolfor cultural expression and
resistance.
How do you believe artisticcollaboration can serve as a
bridge to connect Indigenouscommunities globally,
particularly those in regionslike Central Asia, the Middle
East and beyond?
And also, I guess in that framewe're considering, or folding
(15:38):
in, how Indigenous communitiesplay into that?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I think art's going to save the world.
I think artists help us imaginenew worlds and new ways of
seeing the world.
I think in a tribal contextalso is like pragmatic we need
to make things that are sturdyand last a long time and aren't
as precious as the global Northmakes art.
(16:04):
And I think when we do theseartistic collaborations, we're
also learning from each otherabout what is pragmatic and
beautiful to somebody else.
That isn't centering elite,precious spaces right, we're not
(16:27):
centering like what's going tomake us the most money and right
.
And that's also it's hard tohave that conversation because
we often come from communitiesthat are in dire need and
sometimes need to make money.
And so I think when we're ableto have the time and space to
(16:47):
pause and learn from each other,then we can imagine a more
liberated future.
Liberated future I don't meanto sound idealistic or like
romanticize this, but I think itreally like if everyone had
(17:08):
some type of creative practice,I think we would revolt much
sooner than is going to happen.
And I think that, right, we'reseeing that with like college
campuses, where the students whowe see going to higher
education as a privilege, we seestudents who are having the
time and space to thinkcritically and are dissatisfied
with what is happening.
And I think the same thing ifmore people had.
(17:29):
And again, right, this is likebattling against capitalism and
the capitalist push to produceand reproduce and make money and
pay bills.
But imagine if we all had timeto just make things together.
I think we would bedissatisfied with the way that
capitalism is ruining our lives.
But we don't ever have thattime to stop and think about it.
(17:52):
And I think art and artisticcollaboration can bridge that
gap between Indigenouscommunities, especially so many
communities that arehistorically dispossessed and
historically oppressed by empire.
And so I really think we Awould just learn cool things,
(18:14):
right?
I don't come from a communitythat weaves.
I mean, we weave quill work,but that's like cool things,
right.
I don't come from a communitythat weaves.
I mean, we weave quill work,but that's like teeny, tiny,
right.
So I just like imagine learningweaving, you know, from Kanaka,
mali, or you know, I think aboutCalifornia basket makers and
vice versa.
Like, come to Northern Plains,we'll teach you how to tan big
(18:35):
giant hides, you know.
I think there's so much justpracticality, because I think
also embedded in that creativepractice is again those
ontological and epistemologicalrelationships.
So then we could start to seethose connections and how we're
really grounded in specificplaces and grounded in specific
mountains, and grounded inspecific rivers, and learning
(19:00):
that from each other and knowingthat there are relatives all
across the globe that take careof us, and relatives in the
sense of like the land and theanimals, and we can learn that
from each other.
And that would I think that allcomes out of creative practice.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned just on a
really like basic level thatcreating the space to have these
types of collaborativeexchanges with one another.
People can share knowledge, youknow practices from your
community with other folks fromother communities and then by
doing that you're like workingwith one another and those
(19:40):
spaces are becoming moredisparate, like we're working on
a very like individual,isolated levels more and more
and more every day.
And I was also thinking too,based on what you shared.
You know the arts largelyhumanities in general are always
like the first thing to go likein budgets and in curriculum
and in programming.
(20:00):
The value of that is diminishedlargely by folks that are
making those types of decisions.
But I also think that theyactually understand the value of
that because if we're inconversation with one another
then, like you said, like arthas the capacity to potentially
incite revolution and if we'rein conversation with each other,
(20:21):
then revolution can happen.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's obviously like not what they want Very scary
for those in power.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I think you just really nailed all of that
on the head really well,honestly.
So I'm wondering then, also interms of resilience and
collective emergence fromcolonialism you're not being
naive to the fact that a lot ofIndigenous communities,
regionally and also globally,are still grappling with effects
of colonialism and imperialismand so on.
(20:53):
Can you talk about how artisticcollaboration across the
borders empower thesecommunities to reclaim their
identity and build thatresilience that you're talking
about?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, I think this might be a controversial
statement.
I have a lot of colleagues whoare very disgruntled with the
popularity of ribbon skirts, thepopularity of ribbon skirts.
But I also think that there'sthis conversation about how we
historicize ourselves visuallyand how we try to embrace, like
(21:26):
a present day aesthetic andright.
And I don't.
I'm not like advocating thateveryone wear a ribbon skirt,
but I think dismissing would notbe able to wear otherwise.
Like I think about coming.
I'm not going to wear a ribbonskirt, but I think dismissing
would not be able to wearotherwise.
Like I think about coming.
I'm not gonna wear buckskineverywhere.
I don't want to.
It's like it, you know.
(21:47):
And another time period, yes,it would probably be more
practical, but like now we havenew materials and so I will wear
a ribbon skirt or, you know, myribbon pants, because I want to
visually like signal, like I'man Indigenous person and I
should be able to express myselfas such.
(22:08):
I can't imagine right, likewearing a grass skirt, a
beautifully woven grass skirt,right, and having your tatas out
and like right, like where'sthe practicality in present day?
Right, because we've inheritedall of this crap from
(22:29):
colonialism and we have tograpple with it, and so I think
there needs to be a way to thinkof these things more so as an
artistic collaboration acrosscommunities, as opposed to like
flattening it to laziness andand policing each other.
I think that's the other thingthat happens often when we see a
(22:52):
global indigenous phenomenonlike a ribbon skirt and people
being like well, we didn't wearthat.
I'm like yeah, we also didn'twear jeans and Nikes.
So like, why can't we find waysto express ourselves as tribal
people through contemporarymaterials and contemporary means
(23:12):
?
Because at some point in time,everything we did was
contemporary and that's just oneexample, right, like I said,
I'm not advocating that everyonewear a ribbon skirt, but I also
don't think we should bepolicing each other on how we're
choosing to express ourselves,if it just so happens to be a
(23:36):
part of like fashion phenomena,because I also think we could
encourage each other again tospecify in those ribbon skirts
where you come from, right, youknow I've seen Choctaw weaving
designs and ribbons.
You know, I've seen I just thinkabout the amazing like MMIW
(23:57):
skirts, ribbon skirts that havecome out, or even just any type
of ribbon work in the woodlandsarea.
I think we can push each otherto bring that specificity to
this global experience.
And I think that's one way thatwe're grappling with that, um,
(24:21):
which is very different, I think, very different than and not to
dismiss our fashion designersthat are out there, but, right,
like a ribbon skirt, I think,feels a little bit more
accessible than paying, you know, hundreds of dollars for a
replicated polyester skirt.
I would rather have, like, mypolyester ribbon skirt, you know
(24:45):
.
But I think that's one way wecan think about how are we
grappling with, like this, thishomogenization that happens with
global indigeneity, while alsotrying to bring some specificity
to that artistic practice andto me, like a ribbon skirt is
one example of that and maybe bea little bit more gentle with
(25:09):
each other about, like, whochooses to wear a skirt.
And when I recently saw aFacebook post where this young
woman had been at an event onher campus and she went to
Walmart to, you know, finishshopping for the evening to go
home, and some elderly, nativewomen made fun of her for having
(25:31):
her ribbon skirt on in Walmart,and I was like, who cares?
Like we don't know where shewas, you know, and I just think
about this policing about timeand space and kind of trapping
ourselves in these protocolsthat harm us more so than
(25:52):
liberate us, and how do we havethese conversations about?
Yeah, no-transcript yeah,totally.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's interesting because I think about like the
men's ribbon shirt and forwhatever reason, like that never
gets any flack.
Like pablo men wear it.
Like anishinaabe men wear it.
Everyone wears it, alaskaprobably.
Which right we?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
could, we could say is also this like Alaska,
probably Right.
We could say is also this likegendering, that we've inherited,
that we need to police womenand their bodies, depression,
and and then men just can dowhatever they want, and that
we've inherited that from from,from colonialism, right, like,
(26:54):
historically, most most of of usnot to flatten us, but most of
us come from, you knowmatrilineal societies, so it
would be women making thosedecisions and saying what looked
good and not.
I just think about the, theocheti.
There was a group of likelakota men that came back with
those beaver skin top hats andall the women were like those
(27:15):
are so ugly and plain and thendecorated them, you know.
So it was the women who weredeciding what looked good or not
, men getting to wear ribbonshirts whenever they want.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, totally, and I really like how you added this
thing about being gentle to oneanother because you see it
across the board.
You know, in all of ourcommunities when folks are
trying to, especially likeyounger generations are trying
to reconnect with community andperhaps even learning our
language, learning, you know,whatever our community customs
(27:50):
may be and cultural practices,you know it can be really
stressful and I know in mycommunity often people can feel
shamed out for saying somethingwrong in our language, the
Navajo Nation, and those kind ofmoments really discourage folks
from wanting to activelycontinue to go down the path of
(28:11):
learning and participating incommunity and staying connected,
you know.
So, yeah, I'm glad that youmentioned, you know, just being
gentle with one another andreally thinking is it really
worth it to, you know, shamesomeone out over a ribbon skirt?
I think there are many otherthings that are really
problematic in our communitythat we could shame out, and I
(28:33):
don't know that a ribbon skirtis one of those things.
What practical steps can betaken to strengthen solidarity
among Indigenous communitiesglobally, especially those that
have been historicallymarginalized and isolated from
one another, and I'm thinking inparticular, communities that we
also never really learned aboutuntil, perhaps, we went to
college.
(28:53):
And even if you did go tocollege, there's a high chance
that if you didn't take sometype of history class or
something, you also maybe didn'teven learn it there, unless you
met folks who were from theseplaces abroad.
What are your thoughts on howwe, as Indigenous folks, can
engage with global communities,care about the issues that are
impacting them and really youknow, form bonds and identify
(29:17):
them as kin?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, I think, first and foremost, that we shouldn't
treat each other like tourists.
I think they're right.
We have been conditioned to putourselves on display for
Western, global North audienceand so often, right, when we're
(29:49):
trying to connect with othertribal or Indigenous people,
with other tribal or indigenouspeople, we tend to fall back on
that trend of like, well, here'sall my wounds and let's pour
salt in them.
And I and right, because we'rewe're used to trying to to make
(30:10):
non-native people feel somethingfor us.
And I think we need to remember, right, if we're thinking about
a global indigeneity, that weall understand that pain and
that we have to find a way towash the wound instead of
opening it back up.
(30:37):
And the ways we can do thatright is to not assume that,
just because you don't know myspecific history, right, maybe
you don't know about the FortLaramie Treaty of 1868.
Maybe you don't know about theWounded Knee Massacre or Wounded
Knee, 1973, but I canunderstand that another tribal
(31:02):
group probably has experiencedthe same historical trauma that
my community has, and whetherthat is a mission system that
enslaved most of the populationor, you know, an overthrow of a
kingdom, right, and being ableto build solidarity across what
we've been able to bring with uson the continuum rather than
(31:39):
the pain, right?
What are the?
What is the art?
What is the?
What are the songs?
What are the kinship systemsright?
I would rather you you know,heidi, I remember telling you
Lakota means ally, that's how wesaw each other.
Like I would rather you treatme like an ally and not a
tourist, and not to say I don'twant to do all the fun things
(32:01):
that tourists can do, like I'llvisit all your cool touristy
spots in your homelands.
But, I also want to like meetyour grandma and like have soup
at her house.
You know not to put that burdenon your grandma, but you know
what I mean.
Like show me how you would showyour cousin and how do we
replicate that kind of trend?
But it also means that we haveto show up as invited guests and
(32:30):
not as settlers, and that isalso on.
There needs to be a reciprocalrelationship in how we're trying
to understand and strengthenour communication across these
global spaces.
Don't show up as a tourist, showup as an invited guest, right.
Those are, I think, two verydifferent perspectives of how
we're entering this space.
So that also means like, ifyou're showing up to someone
(32:52):
else's house like you're goingto offer to do the dishes,
you're going to like put thingsaway and not just expect to be
catered to, and vice versa,right, you're inviting someone
into your home in an intimateway, and home in the broad sense
of the word.
You don't have to.
You know, show the like I said,you don't have to show the
wounds, like.
You can also have a differenttype of conversation, I think.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
You know, I think one of the things that perhaps a
lot of people in the US contextdon't realize is that a lot of
global communities they actuallyknow more about us from a
historical and contemporaryperspective than our own fellow
countrymen.
That was always my experienceAlso, like in Turkey, for
example, I felt like Turkishpeople were really hip and
(33:40):
knowing about exactly whathappened to us, and so there was
an immediate kinship theyestablished once they knew that
I was also Native.
What are the things that we cando to sort of break down those
types of barriers and alsocreate more sustainable
long-term relationships betweenNative folks and sort of our
(34:00):
global Indigenous brothers andsisters?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
That's a really challenging one, I'll admit, and
I think about it in the senseof how would I convince my
parents to care?
Right, my parents are from theboomer generation and
experienced boarding school andhave been advocates for tribal
(34:27):
education here in the state ofSouth Dakota.
And it's, how would I frame itfor them?
Right, because it's veryinsular their point of view, and
not in a bad way, but right,they've been taught to really
focus on their own tribalnations and have inherited this
kind of and I think we also havein our generation, even like
(34:53):
this kind of oppression Olympics.
Well, we've had it worse.
Right, and I think it'srecognizing that drive to not
pay attention or to not worryabout another tribal community
(35:14):
across the globe is againstemming from capitalism and the
individualism that we inheritedover the last 500 years and and
that that also, this moment intime, is like a blip in time.
Right, like, like 500 years isnot a long time if we think
(35:36):
about how old the planet is.
And here we are, like, how didwe paint ourselves in the corner
paying taxes, like that's whatwe did with the earth?
Like we're gonna pay taxes,right, cause we, and I just
think how, and that's thechallenge that's I mean that's a
large part of what I've triedto study in school is like, how
(35:58):
do we teach about thedifferences across race, class
and gender and how these are allsystems that have been created
to marginalize people, tooppress people.
And then when you throw in themix like indigeneity, then it's
like we scare everyone, right,and so maybe it's.
(36:23):
It's recognizing, like who isbeing painted as the villain or
the terrorist, when really we'veall been painted that way at
one point in time, right, Ithink about the way the water
protectors at Standing Rock werepainted as terrorists, but we
knew, right, they're fightingfor our water, they're fighting
(36:44):
for land and clean water foreveryone, right?
And the same way, like who inthese global conflicts with
Indigenous communities, who'sbeing painted as the villain?
Who's getting support fromempire?
I think those are ways thatI've tried to draw parallels.
For those who might notunderstand these connections
(37:05):
between Indigenous communities,who, you know, may not look as
tribal as we do or may not bethe same type of oppressed as we
are, I try to signal to likewho's getting support from
empire, meaning the global Northentities like the United States
, who's getting that support andwho's being painted as a
terrorist.
You know, tribal people,especially in North America,
(37:28):
have always been painted asterrorists at one point or time.
Like I think that that's oneway I think we can at least draw
attention to that.
For me it's also because I loveconversations about land and
place who's protecting the olivetrees?
Those are the conversationslike who's protecting the trees
versus who's destroying them,and I think that's a really apt
(37:52):
way to recognize and have thoseconversations about solidarity
(38:14):
maybe some long-term things thatwe might consider.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How can we, collectively, or how can we
individually, continue to upliftand support global indigeneity
and these sort of crosscollaborations in art?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I think one way again , it's like this all hands on
deck kind of mentality that weneed people in our communities,
of course, who are solely justfocused on your tribal community
.
And then I think there areindividuals like you and I who
take up the task of being a partof these global conversations
(38:46):
and while also keeping who weare as tribal people very close
to us and not giving in to thatflattening of culture.
And I think, right, we needboth.
We need people who are solelyfocused on our tribal
communities, because there'salso not enough of us.
And then there's individual, Ithink, folks like us who are
(39:07):
ready to be in those spaces andoften be in uncomfortable spaces
.
I think that's the other partabout the future is that we are
going to be very uncomfortableat times.
I also think the decolonizationprocess is going to be really
challenging, like colonizationwas very violent and so
sometimes the future might holda little bit of violence in how
(39:30):
we're untangling from empire, inhow we're untangling from
empire.
And again, that's why we reallyneed to support artists and
creative practice, because Ithink there's ways that we can
express ourselves, that we candemonstrate solidarity in a
multitude of ways, and that isone really grounding our art
(39:52):
practice in who we are as tribalpeople, not catering it to a
global audience.
Because I think when we groundit in who we are and we have
these collaborative spaces,tribal people will recognize
tribal people.
So there isn't a need to haveto homogenize our viewpoint and
our audience and in that thenwe're able, I think, able to
(40:17):
recognize and see when anothertribal person, another
Indigenous person is imaginingor reimagining their future,
because then it doesn't have toalso be historicized.
I think we should also upliftthings that maybe we make us
uncomfortable, in the sense thatmaybe they're using new
(40:39):
material, maybe they have a newsubject matter.
When art is grounded in aspecific tribal ways of knowing
the world, I think it's veryreflective in the practice and
you don't have to explain it andthen you can recognize those
things across community, even ifit's different colonial powers,
(41:00):
but you can see the futureimagining from different people,
different artists, and howthey're dreaming of something
(41:22):
different.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Clementine, thank you so much for sharing all of that
.
I'd like to give you the chancenow to touch upon anything else
that you feel supports thislarger conversation that we've
had today on global indigeneityand the necessity of engaging
with Indigenous people beyondour own borders, and also the
(41:47):
importance and the role ofcritical in these conversations,
but also I think we need aconversation about criticality
and that being critical doesn'tmean I'm not going to support
you and I think that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Especially across a global Indigenous context is
like we're human, we could be alittle judgy, but that doesn't
mean I'm not going to supportyou.
Sometimes being critical iscoming from a place of care and
concern and trying to find abalance between gossiping and
being like huh, I wonder whatthey're thinking through.
(42:27):
Who are they thinking throughwith?
And again, like coming from astandpoint of of kinship.
And you know, we don't have tobe in relation with everyone.
Some people are harmful, somepeople are so like embedded in
(42:54):
to reach them, and we don't haveto be in relationship with
everyone, but maybe give peoplethe benefit of the doubt and
start trying to approach eachother as relational.
And how can we ensure thatwe're not reacting out of fear
and that we're trying to beproactive, out of care?
And that's hard right.
That's very, very challengingto do and I try to challenge
(43:16):
myself to do that all the time,because I could be very critical
and I could have a lot ofjudgment and passive
aggressiveness, but at the endof the day.
I just want Indigenous peopleto be successful and I want
Indigenous people to be caredfor and that, realizing that we
all make mistakes.
And so how do we ensure thatpeople can get back up when they
(43:41):
do make a mistake?
And that also means don't workin isolation.
That's the other part.
I'm like reach out to people,create a network of care.
Like find people who are goingto support you, find people who
are going to challenge you.
That's the other thing.
Like I'm, I feel like I'malways constantly checking in
with my sister or other folkswhen I'm like is this okay?
(44:04):
Am I doing?
Like, am I being, you know, notwell.
Like I think there's somethingin trying to trying to find
those networks of care that willchallenge us, but also make
sure that we get back up when wemake a mistake is to honor and
(44:39):
support Indigenous artists andculture bearers through
grant-making initiatives,culturally rooted programming,
and training and mentorship.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Learn more at firstpeoplesfundorg.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.