#47: A Guide to Majoring in the Professions (Business, Law, Medicine, etc.)

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Welcome to another edition of the College faith
podcast sponsored by global scholars. This is Stan
Wallace your host, And in this episode, I
continue my series on various college majors students
may choose.
To discuss business and the professions more generally,
I've invited doctor John T to join me.
John has unique background to help us consider

(00:27):
majoring in the professions. He holds a degree
in business from Indiana University.
He an Mba from the Kellogg School of
Management at Northwestern University.
Master's degrees in theology and religion from Gordon
Con Theological seminary.
And a Phd from Seattle Pacific University in
industrial and organizational psychology.
After working in banking and with a business

(00:48):
consulting firm for a few years out of
college, He then went to work with,
Christian Fellowship among students at Harvard business school.
Served in his national director of
Nba ministers, and then as their national director
of the professional school ministries.
He now continues to apply to learn in
his business degrees but and the non profit
sector as executive director of Upper house, the

(01:11):
Christian study center at the University of Wisconsin.
John? Welcome to the show,
Stan, it is a pleasure to be with
you. Thanks for inviting me. Well, it's my
pleasure. It's good to see you again. And
I know you've thought about these issues a
long time, so I'm really interested interested to
your your wisdom and share it with our
listeners.
So let's let's just start with the beginning.

(01:33):
How did you get interested in business
as a area at to major end and
a career half to start with.
Well, I appreciate that question.
Well why I come from,
a family. I have a lot of lawyers
in my family. So was probably
my way to
resist becoming AAA

(01:53):
lawyer, maybe but I'll I'll speak about law
school because I I have a lot of
appreciation for lawyers and loss school and I'll
I'll try to speak to the professions more
broadly as we move through this. But my
my real area of interest and and
specialization as business,
I I studied
business as an undergraduate student at Indiana University,

(02:16):
So I am a person who had a
business major at the Kelly School at at
Indiana University.
I went on to do a a masters
in business,
at Northwestern University of the Kellogg school. So
from an academic perspective,
You know, it... I've I've had a chance
to circle back twice on the discipline of

(02:38):
business.
And then I've just always been entrepreneurial.
I've appreciated small business owners.
I've worked in business.
I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about
my career... Career trajectory, which has taken.
You know, a little bit of a different
path and I've gone on to do some
additional training.
But I've always really appreciated the discipline of

(02:58):
business, the field of business, the
the creativity that comes out of business.
I mean, there's nothing better than a beautiful
product that really meets a you know, a
real need in the world. And,
And we know good products from bad products
and good services from bad services. Right? I
mean, it it conjure up a lot of
emotion.
When we have either a good experience or

(03:20):
a bad experience. And so business has a
lot of potential in the world to bless
or to bring
you know, to bring payroll or curse.
And and so,
I've always seen the influence in the... The
the power of business in the world. And
then I just think there's energy in business.
And I've always found

(03:42):
that it it's a place where
you know, there's just a lot of enthusiasm.
There's a lot of energy.
There's there's excitement. They're they're often
deadlines and product releases and those kinds of
things that
that
you know, I just think bring a lot
of excitement to the marketplace more broadly. So
that's some of the background about how I

(04:02):
got interested in it. I think it was
always there. I nurtured it as I went
through school, and then I've had... Experience is
working in business, which have reinforced
somewhat of what I thought was gonna be
true about business that it was a high
energy high stakes environment. Mh. Yeah. And let's
talk more about your trajectory and where it's
led because now you're in the nonprofit sector,

(04:23):
but
s sm in that same sector. I know
there's so many
business principles and issues and paradigm that are
very similar. So, yeah, tell us about how
that's kinda progressed and even in the sector
you're in now how your training in business
helps you do what you do.
Yeah. Absolutely. Well,

(04:44):
I...
Yeah. So many of the the skills
in leadership. I do...
I I think have a
heavy rooting in business or or management more
broadly. So I do work in the nonprofit
sector now. In fact, I've I've been in
the nonprofit sector for the last 25 or
30 years. So it's been a been a

(05:06):
long run. And in my case, I've been
the first full time director
sector in the last 4 roles I've had
within the nonprofit sector. So, almost my whole
life. My 25 or 30 years in the
nonprofit sector.
I've been the first
full time executive director in the organization of
which I worked. So I've had to draw

(05:26):
heavily on leadership and management skills and
many of that... A lot of that research
and empirical work comes out of the field
of business. Mh. I actually had a chance
during my
campus champ days to work at the Mit
sloan school of management and at Harvard Business
school,

(05:47):
So I was right there kinda doing ministry,
doing nonprofit work right in the the heart
of
especially at Harvard business call, right in the
heart of of of business education.
So
yeah. I I think there's a lot of
overlapping, it's experiences to the skills that that
I draw on daily in my

(06:08):
nonprofit leadership
roles that that link directly back to my
time and business and my training and business.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm sure,
and we've talked about that just over the
years in different times, at different times than
we were...
Engaging issues together when we were shoulder to
shoulder and mh. In our work and learned
a lot from you.

(06:29):
I'd like to ask you a little bit
about that,
you've had some many experiences,
both in terms of your academic
pe agree and then your
professional experience both in the more profit sector
and profit,
how those shaped your understanding of
of the profession of,
business, careers in their marketplace,
more broadly theology of vocation as really as

(06:51):
it relates to business.
Yeah. That's a that's a big question.
I'm gonna speak more generally than specifically.
Okay.
And and in the general part
response to that question, which is a really
good question is,
I think as we go through life, we
have both positive and negative
experience in organizational settings. Mh. And I've been

(07:15):
att to those experiences.
I have
worked for really good leaders,
people that have
been really dialed in on what it means
for business or the nonprofit sector to to
really, be a source of of human flourishing
machine. And I've worked in settings where... I

(07:36):
I've had I don't... I've had... I had
any bad experiences, but I've I've been in
situations.
Sometimes
for shorter periods of time, sometimes even on
projects,
things that I was in full employed full
time. But where I saw
organizational life, not
meeting its full potential. And leadership, not meeting
its full potential. So.

(07:58):
A lot of my
understanding of business would come out of my
experience as an organizational life.
I... 1... Now now I'll speak a little
bit more specifically. 1 of the refrain you
here in business school, And I think this
is changing.
And we'll probably get into this a little
bit later when we talk about models of
red d business.

(08:18):
But there still is this
long standing
notion that the purpose of business
is to maximize shareholder wealth. Mh.
And that's a Milton friedman idea that goes
back to the mid twentieth century, you know,
and was made popular in about 19 70.
And that's been in many cases, the mantra

(08:40):
of of business
education. I think that's really changing.
But if you walked into a business class,
and, you pick your business school and you
just walked in cold,
and you asked students,
what's the purpose of business?
That's probably what they would say. That would
be the first thing they would earn out?

(09:02):
And,
I don't think it's a robust enough understanding.
In fact, I think it's the wrong understanding.
I think business is about serving
people, communities with
legitimate, good, ex excellent products and services that
allow them to flourish.

(09:23):
And to do that, you need to create
good jobs and you need to sustain good
jobs and you need to build healthy
organizations, and that
creates a lot of value in our society.
With That is the purpose of business. The
purpose of business is to bless not to
maximize shareholder wealth. Now, profits and shareholder wealth
are really important. Their scorecard.

(09:44):
It tells you at some level how you're
doing? It's a metric,
a dashboard that lets you know are you
operating your your organization efficiently.
And this is true for non nonprofit as
well. Not profits don't have
profit, but they do have
financial metrics.
And so it's a means goal, but not
an end goal. Profit. Is a means goal,

(10:05):
not an end goal. The end goal
is to...
Offer a product or services
service that that
that really does enable human flourishing. Mh. That
is ultimately the most important end goal. And
I I cast a really broad net around
that. So
if you make good chairs or you make
good audio equipment or good good computer, are

(10:26):
good microphones. I'm looking at my microphone right
now.
That order society that is
a blessing and enables screws communities
to flourish.
So, a lot of my understanding has just
come from being on both sides of that
ledger.
Being in situations where mission is clearly articulated,

(10:47):
and there's a lot of
enthusiasm
and
alignment around the product or service
being produced,
and I've been in situations where that hasn't
been as clear, and maybe a bit more,
the vision and mission had been a bit
more
mud as far as clarity purposes. And

(11:07):
and that's... That
that has dampened some of my, you know,
my understanding or real life experience of the
potential
of business. So those are Those are a
couple of thoughts, I guess to start to
tackle the really good question that you've asked.
Right. And it really starts to get into
the idea of of vocation because all vocation
are too.
Serve

(11:28):
god through our work in terms of
of of certain ends and saying ultimately, God's
kingdom come and God's will be done on
Earth as in heaven. So
so that it fits very nicely with the
broader vision of
vocation.
But that's a very interesting shift that you
just mentioned
because,

(11:49):
you're talking about the broader
business world, not just... Christians in business. And
so it sounds like there's been this this
realization by the broader business community and business
schools that there is
there's more to flourishing than just money.
And I I wonder what would lead to
that kind of a shift in business and

(12:09):
how you're seeing that play out in some
real practical ways.
Yeah. No. That's a good question. I think
1 thing that is true by businesses is
that...
And the discipline of business and business schools
is they're very practice minded. Sure. So they're
open to
ideas and theories that have legs. Schools that
seem to work. Mh. And this gets back

(12:31):
to the shareholder wealth maximization model. I mean,
how many people get up I mean, if
you said to your
employees, you know, get out of bed this
morning come join me, we're gonna be about
maximizing
shareholder wealth.
Right.
That's not very compelling. Right? I mean, it
would be a little compelling if you had
stock. But but again, it's not all that

(12:53):
compelling.
You know, if if you said, we're gonna
come and join this organization, we're gonna build
great airplanes, and we're gonna help people connect
and serve
and make the world a better place by
connecting people through travel. That's a different... I
mean, just making up that mission statement. But
that's a different kind of statement. Right?
That captures your imagination that captures my imagination.

(13:18):
So business at its core,
you know, is about a lot of the
organizations. It's like a lot of organizations. It
wants to create a sustainable future. And 1
of the ways it does that is by
profit, but Another way it does that is
by having empowered employees.
People who are excited
values that that really do connect with people

(13:38):
and an organization that's... That's on the move
in a lot of ways. And 1 of
the ways you do that is by putting
into practice,
ideas,
principles
that that seemed to work. And 1 of
the things that seems to work and that
has gained resonance. Is this deeper
sense of meaning and vocation that people really
do want to

(13:59):
come in contact with. I think all of
us long,
we all have kind of a a place
in our heart
and are soul at longs to to make
the world a better place to be a
part of a of of something bigger than
ourselves,
And I think businesses and or and and
good organizations tap into that. For not just
self serving purposes,

(14:20):
part of it is to, you know, self
serving in the sense that they're... Thinking about
their own sort of longevity and future, but
also they tap into it because they they
love to see people come alive as well.
And they can benefit from that. Mh. Mh.
Give me an example. Where have you a...
Where have you seen this? What what did
it look like and inca for me?
Yeah. I'm trying to... I was it's easy

(14:41):
easier for me to to give examples
from my
my life and
more vocational ministry. But I'll get. I'll go
way back to my
banking examples. My first job out of college
was to work
as a real estate lending officer.
K. And so I went through a a
commercial training program,

(15:03):
and learned how to be a banker
And as a banker, you know, you're trying
to match
financial products and services, banking services to the
needs of, in my case, sort of small
and medium sized business owners.
And this was a time when there was
a lot of stress on real estate properties.
This was,

(15:24):
you know, in in a time of recession
and
constriction and other kinds of things. And,
you know, being able to come alongside these
business owners, in very challenging times and to
say, you know, we're with you.
Times are tough, but, the the bank really
what does want to stand with you, and

(15:44):
we're gonna make this loan work, you know,
if in in the case of a distressed
loan, we're gonna make this loan work for
you. Let's... Talk about restructuring this loan,
in the case of businesses that we're growing,
you know, tell me about what you're thinking
about? What is the
the new part of growth that your business
is gonna take on, and let's help you

(16:06):
get there. Let's let's really help you expand
your factory. And let's help you hire those
50 new
workers. Whatever it might be, but it it's
coming alongside and sharing in the dream and
then opening up pathways
or
small business owners or entrepreneurs to accomplish those

(16:26):
dreams.
That's an example from my banking days. And...
Yeah. And I I could give you others,
but but, you know, that was right out
of college. So I had those opportunities right
out of college your real estate lender, banking,
commercial lender,
and I know your audience is largely college
students. But that was, you know, I was
making come alongside entrepreneurs at, you know, age

(16:48):
23 24 25. Right out of college. Yeah.
Well, you used a word then as you
were describing that. I wanna circle back. We've
mentioned this idea a few times.
The idea of vocation.
A theology of vocation, more than just a
job. Mh. Related to human flourishing in the
common good. So
Say a little more about that. How would

(17:08):
you describe a theology of vocation and and
and then apply it to students not just
in business, but in any of the professional
oriented fields medicine law and what have you?
Sure.
Yeah. It's such a... There there's so much
there. A couple passages that I I thought
about just coming in today.
You know, Ephesians 02:10,

(17:30):
we're god's hand work. We've been created in
Christ Jesus to do good works.
Which God's prepared for us in advance. So
this is really a kind of a long
term understanding that there really is
a path that that it's not a a
singular path, like, you know, there isn't this
sort of
this fine
tight rope line that we have to walk.

(17:52):
The the only way we're in God's will
is that we walk on this little tight
rope. I don't think it's that In other
words, this specific job in this place. That's
what you mean. That idea that oh, that
guys got 1 job for me and in
And, again, 1 1 spouse that's right and
all of this is all laid out. That's
right. Yeah. I really wanted to debunk that.
Yeah. I think that that needs to be
debunked because I think it is...

(18:14):
Vocation is a lifelong process.
I think God is really
gracious and generous and and and meets us
in that journey.
But it is a a honing journey of
sorts where we... The only way we get
started is to try,
and we take that job.
And we do our best to discern the
job that that it seems to fit the

(18:35):
vocational path that seems to fit. And then
we we go out and we start to
take steps. And then we learn
and then we make adjustments and we learn
and we make adjustments. And so that's how
my
my life vocational has unfolded, but this idea
that god has prepared good works in advance
for us to to to walk into is
is... But empowering to me, just knowing that,

(18:57):
even as someone,
you know, now in mid fifties.
You know, I... I'm really empowered to know,
that that's still the case. And even as
I reach
a time where I might start to slow
down vocational and and red deploy more into
community and I don't think I have a
retire stand, I don't think you will either.
You don't strike me as the kind of
guy that's gonna retire. But if we get

(19:19):
rid... Red deployed out of out of professional
sort of paid work into something else. Right.
There's still good works. Right? Or our time
in our neighborhood our families or whatever god's
promote all these great works for us.
In advance. I think another passage that's part
of my theology of vocation is this idea
that comes out of
second Corinthians chapter 5, You know, we've been

(19:41):
given the ministry of
reconciliation, we're ambassadors of
reconciliation.
This is really important for me. First of
all, ambassadors ships really important. And if you've
ever been in a in in a
traveled internationally, you know, the the embassy is
a really important place. They represent your interest
in that place.

(20:02):
As ambassadors,
we represent the interest of the kingdom.
And we have a chance to join with
God in
God's reconciling work in the world and believe
me, every
dimension of our world needs some degree of
reconciling.
I don't care if you're work in a
church or a Christian school

(20:23):
or a bank or an investment firm or
whatever it is.
I mean, you could work for Goldman Sachs.
So, I'm gonna just, you know...
There's reconciling work on all of those places.
And,
as
price followers.
We are ambassadors of reconciliation. We take the
good news

(20:44):
that is not just the spoken good news,
but the good news through service
into each of those settings, and we serve
as
ambassadors of reconciliation. So that's
that's another idea that's that's really important,
And
the 2 of those
together,

(21:04):
I think
legit our sense of our general call to
be a
about god's work in the world, and they're
also helpful to help us over time discern
more specific
narrative around our unique gifts as well. So
I could ask the question,
how am I faithful to be god's hand
work? In the world. How... How how can

(21:26):
I be faithful to be god's ambassador in
the world? And I can wake up every
day and in a very general broad sense
respond to that question.
That's a a sense of general call. Mh.
And then I can... I can ask that
question very specifically, what does it mean to
be God's hand work? In in my case,
leading a Christian study center at University of

(21:47):
Wisconsin Madison?
What does it mean to be an ambassador
of
reconciliation as an executive director of a profit
That's now 10 years old,
that has its own set of issues at
this season of life. Mh. So I can
ask it very specifically. So at any given
time
Vocation is an idea that we think about

(22:08):
and we have to wrestle with in a
general sense and in a very particular
unique sense. Mh.
Sure. That's really good. And there's so much
that, like you said there that we could
drill into that forever,
but you you did use another word as
a an an m for vocation,
the word calling.

(22:29):
And Right.
I wanna ask
about
that idea
because I think this is becoming less and
less, but There's still certainly a notion in
some
churches and Christian ministries
that calling is exclusively to quote unquote the
ministry.
And if you don't have a calling,

(22:50):
then you go into a quote unquote secular
work.
But you are articulating, I think very well,
that that's a false dichotomy
and you know, kinda pushing back on that.
But I'd like you just let say a
little more of of
why do we tend to have this idea
that calling is just to either the pastor

(23:11):
it or some Christian ministry role or maybe
as a missionary and not this more robust
vision of calling and vocation you're giving us.
Yeah. That's a good question. Well, I have
a...
I have a new thought, and then I'll
come back to the to to kinda your
question,
that my thought is related to this. I
think we...

(23:32):
Probably we think about it in the ministry
context
more
regularly
because there's a process to to firm calling.
A tradition that's been passed on
that, you know, you go through a process
of discernment,
and then you...
You go through a process of some kind

(23:53):
of community blessing. There's usually some training and
then community blessing. Mh. Laying out of hands.
There's there's... There's a physical and a visual
affirmation. Mh. That this is a good match
of your gifts. A commissioning ceremony.
Commissioning ceremony,
coordination.
Coordination. Right. So

(24:13):
you you... There is a a process that's
been established in
church life and in the life of
vocational missions where that
is
in play.
And we don't have comparable
ceremonies.
Affirmations.

(24:33):
Affirmations of Yeah. Of, this is a good
match and a good alignment for your gifts
and skills and interests and passions.
And so I I think we could have,
you know, an coordination to
marketplace work, or
we could have
an nation to serve as an engineer or

(24:55):
as a lawyer. Our churches could do that.
The guild, these professional guild in some ways
do do that,
but they don't do it in the context
of holy orders. Right? So You better clarify
what you mean by a professional guild.
For our listeners.
Yeah. Well, you know, you join... So this
is 1 of the things, you know, that

(25:16):
that I think can be really helpful as
we think about...
College and the professions is that you're joining
a guild. You're gonna join a professional community
that has its own
standards and often own statements of ethics.
You know, there's accreditation. There's there's some some

(25:36):
level of what makes you official or official.
Mh Mh. So to to be a lawyer,
you have to pass the bar.
Mh. And there is a process. And then
you pass the bar and you're, you know,
you're part of the the American bar Association.
Right? You you join your local and national
bar negotiation. I don't know exactly how that
works these days. But

(25:57):
engineering has comparable guild. And you're held to
certain standards if you join
the medical
profession
at a very basic level you commit to
the Hip credit oath, which I'm sure Stan
you know all about, but you,
you know, you commit to to be a
source of healing and help
and to to not undo pathways of of

(26:18):
flourishing. So Mh, So that... Those are... That's
what I mean by the guild. They used
to be even more formally structured.
We used to have lots of guild around
trades.
And
you would actually apprentice into a trade. So
if you to be a blacks or a
carpenter, you would...
Apprentice for a number of years and gain

(26:40):
credentials and skill and craft, and then you
would join the guild. Mh. I think we've
lost that sense,
But in many ways, the professions do still
have some of these guild
or these professional
associations in place that are...
Important
influential bodies that do govern behavior. And
in some ways of vision for the future.

(27:02):
Mh.
Sure.
I hadn't thought a lot about that.
I appreciate that.
Circle back then to the other thing you
wanted to say about why you think. In
addition to not having any
ceremonies or
markers
Right. To
affirm the calling of those outside of unquote

(27:23):
ministry?
Are there other reasons why that is? And
how can how can we in this conversation
and help others
maybe see the fallacy of that theology.
Yeah. I... Well, I think this has been
a blind spot for a number of years.
You know, even decades and centuries.

(27:43):
So it... We're not gonna solve this overnight
Start. Yeah. I think generally, the church is
getting better at this.
Okay. So you were just telling me about
international missions and the La Congress in the
large con convenient
in South Korea of marketplace leaders,
and helping them to see their work as

(28:03):
sacred work,
mh And so I think we always have
to
remind people that they've been called to sacred
work.
You know, holy work doesn't happen on Sunday,
exclusively on Sunday. It does happen on Sunday.
It doesn't exclusively happen on Sunday

(28:23):
morning, Sunday night and Wednesday, mid mid week
church service. Right? It happens
all the time.
You could imagine if you were working
against god's forces of good and imagination in
the world
how those who are opposed to god's purposes
would wanna undo our imagination for our work

(28:44):
being sacred.
Mh Mh. We...
There there would be a
of this binary thinking that there's sake holy
work and holy work. There's sacred work and
and everyday life work.
And because that... What that does is it
removes about 90 non percent of our hours
in a given week,

(29:04):
from being in the sacred category. And so
I think we have to actively
push back
against those tendencies.
And
I think over time, we haven't always done
a, a great job of that. I think
the church sometimes,
Fails to do that because it sort of
gets... It it can. And I speak speak
of this as someone who is completely supportive

(29:26):
has been dis seminary,
and trained in d,
the eth has theological training. The church sometimes
can get so focused on sort of maintaining
its programs.
And and sort of the the life of
what it does that it forgets or
becomes a little blinded
to the importance of helping people

(29:49):
live their life in sacramento ways.
And in ways that make a difference out
in the world.
So. The the life of the church isn't
just in
in the church building. The life of the
church is outside the church building. Right. And
it's also in in in the church building.
That's where we come to gather and be
equipped.

(30:10):
But we go out to serve and to
bliss.
And so I think there's just... There's lots
of ways This this gets confused, and it's
often because we're busy,
people were preoccupied with the things that are
right before us, and we forget
that
you know, we have blind spots and that
all of us have a role to play.

(30:30):
We will return to the show in just
a moment, but first a word from our
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(30:52):
And
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(31:14):
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(31:36):
on your favorite podcast platform,
and now back to college fame.
Let me ask you 1 more broad,
conceptual.
Question, and then I wanna get some really
practical questions for students. But but we're talking
about the career trajectory and the professions
AAA good theology of what that is all
about,

(31:57):
how 1 might flourish. You've mentioned a few
times the institutional level, not just the individual
level. But... Yeah. So talk a little more
about why institutional life is so important, how
might career in the professions contribute to the
flourishing of institutions not just of individuals.
Oh, I love that question. I'm such a
big institution guy.

(32:17):
And I think we just... Right now have
a... Have low regard for institutions. Mh. And
some of that is understandable. We look at
our,
political system, and it feels like it's just
in constant
battle.
And there's so many bad examples, unfortunately, there's
even been a few this week where the
institutional church hasn't
performed very well, Right.

(32:39):
Either been unethical behavior and there's cover up,
and... I mean, we could spin out how
institutions
haven't performed very well and have damaged
people in society and all that's true.
And yet,
institutions are so important. I mean, think about
your own formation as a person, You know,
if you didn't have a little league. Mh.

(32:59):
Or you didn't have boy scouts or girl
scouts or the local swimming pool or
elementary school. I mean, you just start to
think about all of the associations. Sure. And
in so many ways, you know, we're already
gut some of our social fabric. They're are
fewer and fewer of those kinds of

(33:20):
structures in our society.
I think
there's reasons, a lot of reasons for that.
And others have covered this ground, Robert Putnam
and others, you know, bowling alone.
You know, there's all kinds of ways that
our
social systems are breaking down.
And yet, there's lots of possibility as well.

(33:41):
I think,
you know, there's all kinds of good examples
of people building healthy institutions. But here's what
I... I... Why I think institutions are so
important. They really are the scaffolding that hold
our society up.
They provide structure.
And order
and they...
They're mentoring entities that help us develop and

(34:03):
have higher
aspirations
Most of our institutions function in that way.
And I think we need to think in
coordinated ways about how to rebuild our institutions.
But here's why they're so important is they
have a real formative role in our society.
They really do
shape.
And form our best instincts. And

(34:24):
and I...
I'm troubled this a lot of institutions are
disappearing and they don't hold that value up.
And I'm also troubled that many institutions now
are more about platforms of performance.
Than having a vision of formation. And you've
all in and others cover this ground.
But think about how many of our leaders

(34:46):
these days,
And maybe I'll just pick on politics,
but they use their institutions as a platform.
I mean, it's a platform to build up
into self promote.
Rather than to see it as an organization
or an institution that it's about forming a
better society, Mh. And forming

(35:07):
People who can flourish?
That's a really different way to think about
institutions. How are you gonna approach the institution?
Is it a platform to help you advance?
And we all... At at some level, we
have to think about institutions at some degree
in that way because they do help us
to train and into develop.
But is it primarily a platform for you

(35:29):
or is it a place of formation that
you get to be a part of that
is helping to form the world in a
positive way. Those are 2 really contrasting ways
to think about institutions. And I think we
need much more the latter than the former.
We need to think about it less as
a platform.
For performance or self promotion and much more
as a place of formation to help shape
a healthy and flourishing society. That's the view

(35:51):
we need to take And I think the
professions, business
engineering,
medicine,
dentistry.
The legal field, all of them
are places where
institutions are really important. They make up the
backbone
so much of the institutions
that function in our society to help commerce

(36:14):
flow smoothly and even product and goods flow
smoothly. And then you think about the profit
world and all all that it does. So
they're tremendously important and people who are heading
into the professions have an opportunity to step
into that and over time
to really be a positive influence in helping
build positive and healthy.
Institutions.

(36:35):
Sure. Well, that's such a helpful
paradigm in such a unique paradigm I think
for a lot of folks
coming out of school. Trying to think about.
Okay. Now I've gotta get a job, Where
should I apply what I want out of
this
this position? Is it, again, all about me?
Or do I do I have any conception
of the hell... I'm part of shaping a

(36:58):
business that could foster the common good back
to the earlier
conversation.
Yeah. That's right. I don't know hear talked
about it at all. So thanks for bringing
that to the table.
Yeah. And there's a lot to me... You've
all been thinks a lot about this... He's
at the American Enterprise who's. Curtis Chang is
another person if you wanna. Yeah. Okay. It
was a colleague of ours many years ago
at Varsity, but he's working on this issue

(37:19):
with Ib Patel,
does a lot of interface work.
Writes about the value of institution. So I'm
borrowing heavy heavily from some of these thinkers,
but
But boy, if if we wanna make a
positive difference in our world today,
I think institutions is is where It's at.
And we don't have... We don't have to
think about the Meta institutions. We can think

(37:41):
about micro institutions, you know, neighborhood
associations,
parks.
Community guild. I mean, we can we can
get involved,
you know, your team at work. You don't
have to think about the whole organization, but
what team are you on? Mh. That in
some ways is, you know, part of institutional
life. All of these are places where no
matter how senior we are in an organization,

(38:02):
we can make a difference.
Alright.
So let's talk practical
things that have to do with the student
maybe the high school student trying to think
at a much more
introductory level about cash, What is this
major cult business or or or what have
you,
marketing,

(38:23):
supply chain management, which my son just finished
a degree and
in the University context, how how are the
professional schools
similar to other departments? How are they different,
say from the history department or the psychology
department.
That would be helpful for students to know
as they as they're going in.
Yeah. That's really good.

(38:45):
Well, they they often are
influential on the college campus because they they
often have
a
large share of of student majors.
Mh. And and there's strength with that, but
there's also some some weaknesses and some warnings
I would issue. So Okay.
You know, computer and information sciences,

(39:08):
engineering, business school here at you u us
and those are programs that have, you know,
high percentages of students. And that would be
true in a lot of large university settings.
Mh. And with that, comes a
strong
sense from those departments or schools, the kind
of students they want and what they're hoping

(39:28):
to form them into.
And so there is a strong
process that takes place.
And they're rewarded
by
doing a good job of selection and then
formation and then landing them a job out
in industry.
So it's a cycle that kinda perpetuate. So,

(39:49):
you know, your your son, supply management.
I'll use that as an a supply chain.
I'll use that as an a... As an
example
don't know if he went through a business
score now but that's something you could study
in a business school. Yeah. You go to
a campus and you entered enter the business
school and you're interested in supply chain management.
And that's a really crucial field, and we
could talk about why that's so important. And

(40:09):
and I'll I'll sort of unpack maybe some
of the biblical dimensions of that as well
because I think it is it is something
that I think I could
could connect pretty quickly to
a larger sense of of a, of a,
kind of a kingdom ecology if I can
if I can use that phrase. Okay. But
when your son enters that that discipline, you

(40:30):
know, he's gonna join the business school, and
he's gonna find that the business school has
a certain way of doing things.
And he might start to think
that he is largely a patron of the
business school and less a patron
of the larger university or college that he's
apart.
In fact, he might be tempted not even
to leave that campus. He might spend most

(40:52):
of his time in that building
and kinda connect only with students that are
in his program.
And his experience was just that because the
building that they have on his canvas for
the business.
Students is state of the art. It's got
all the amenities. It's Yeah. Funded by a
a major bank in our area, and so
it is just the place you wanna be.

(41:13):
Yeah. Why would you wanna leave? Why do
you wanna go anywhere else? Right. Except maybe
to see the basketball game.
Exactly.
And then they're gonna bring in recruiters, and
they're gonna start that process pretty early, Like,
he's gonna probably start thinking about full time
jobs, maybe even as a sophomore, but certainly
by Junior year,
He's gonna be thinking about this and he's
gonna be thinking about internships.

(41:33):
And they're gonna bring in lots of recruiters
and they're gonna have recruiting days, and he's
gonna try to match his interest with companies
that are on campus recruiting, and it's gonna
be really organized.
And he'll put his suit on and he'll
go and sit in those meetings.
And he could be tempted to join a
company

(41:55):
because
of
the name recognition of the company, the brand
power of the company, the mastery of the
company
and it might be a really good fit.
Like, it might be a great company
that would be a really good place for
him to start his career, but it might
also not be a great company for him.
To start his career, and there's a temptation,

(42:15):
I think. Mh. That can come when you
enter the process,
and you begin to articulate through the process.
You can sort of forget who you are,
what your interests are, the kinda of work
that's best aligned
to your interest, and you can fall into
some of these
kind of these major pathways that

(42:37):
are built into the system
and that the system rewards. And
All that's good. Like, I loved going through
college and having
recruiters come, knock on my door. That that
is. That's a really good thing. Right. But
it can also blind us, I think to
to our gifts, to our interest, to to

(42:57):
other
experiences that we'd be well served to experience.
And, you know, I could speak to the
broader college experience and how, you know, sometimes
when we get us only on our professional
school, we we lose sight of some of
the other things our college or university is
offering us.
But those are some of the temptation, I
think on the negative side.

(43:19):
It could get in the way of certain
around calling of or vocation. For a young
person going through college. Right. And I'd argue
and you're saying this. I know I'll make
it explicit that that includes
the value of classes outside of business and
the professions more broadly. That's why. Now less
and less, but University still have a core

(43:42):
curriculum in humanities
and the social sciences so that students are
in
involved in those broader
conversations,
not just the specific
application of those ideas in those humanity classes
to business.
And, you know, we're we're seeing that
decrease

(44:02):
because I think of our p as a
culture, but
to your point. That's why
for students who wonder, why I have to
take these other classes? They don't help me
get a job in
engineering. Well, it's because there are broader conversations
that the is having that you ought to
have some understanding of and at least some
ideas of what you believe on those topics.

(44:25):
Absolutely. And I would really hit that point
with parents. I mean, I really do get
this that
1 of the reasons that you feel strongly
about college and you wanna see your sons
and daughters at attend colleges. It opens up
lots of vocational pathways. There is an economic
calculus here, and I'd get that. I really
do. But college and university life is

(44:46):
the time where you can learn to grapple
with big questions.
And and learn how to do that that
well. Mh. And I think the human humanity's
offer that
in ways that are probably
richer
than
professional schools.
And I will say that as someone who
went through all the professional schools, I had

(45:06):
to back Phil,
in graduate school and in my doctor program
with the humanities. And so I did it
later in life. So did Die? Yeah. And
I wish I done it earlier in life.
Mh. So I would just... I would warn
families students and parents not to let go
of the humanities you know, take courses outside
of your professional discipline. Most schools require that,

(45:28):
but some don't. Right? Some you you, you
know, you you never have to leave the
the business school building. Right? And Mh. But
take
take courses outside of your discipline, even double
major if you can't. Or do a minor,
but find ways to to get exposed to
the arts and humanities or the sciences Or
something that's just outside of

(45:50):
your immediate professional field.
And then once you have some of that,
you can build on a foundation as you
get into the advanced courses in your area
in business or law medicine. That's right. Because
ultimately, you're gonna be talking about those big
issues in
3 400 level classes. Anyway, what's what's the
good, What's the true what's the beautiful in
light of what I'm doing in business and

(46:11):
medicine and law, which is been gonna be
har back to this conversations you engaged in
the 1 heart level general requirement courses.
I think that's right. And and my hope
is that the the professional fields
are still asking those big questions.
We shouldn't probably assume that those questions are
gonna get asked. I I think they often

(46:33):
are, and business schools. I know I know
most about business schools. They're required to have
Ethics courses and to work in larger integrity
questions into
classes, but it it it happens with
different degrees of, productivity or just different degrees
of effectiveness.
And Sure. And so I... You know, the
the only time you may get a chance

(46:54):
to ask some of those questions and wrestle
across.
Disciplines
and and and really get exposed to some
of that would be in your humanities.
Yeah.
Okay. Here's a question that I'm really interested
to know if you've got an answer for,
and I really don't know if there there's
1.
Is there a certain profile
of the type of person who flourish

(47:16):
in a business major or more broadly in
the professions,
are there certain character qualities,
interests, pro cl,
uniqueness is to say, yeah. Yeah. You've got
those things. You ought to really go into
business. Or surrender medicine law.
That's that's really good.
Well, 1 of the things that I will
say is true about business education, and I

(47:39):
will contrast this with my seminary
education.
You would think that being a pastor, or
a ministry leader
you'd have to really get along well with
people.
And I think most pastors do,
most ministry leaders do, but there isn't anything
in the curriculum that requires you to work
with others.
You can basically go through sediment,

(48:01):
and it's a singular
solitary
assignment.
I mean, you might get... You you might
get thrown into, you know, some formation groups
or something where you have to talk about
something
in a group, But you don't have any
shared work. That you have to accomplish together.
Okay? That's not true in the professional schools.
It might be true I I don't know
about law school, but

(48:22):
I know medical students, you know, they they
have a pretty tight community with rounds and,
you know, as you progress through the program.
In business
school, you do all kinds of stuff together.
Like, half of your work can be group
work. Mh. Yeah. I noticed that my son's
curriculum.
Yeah. And you have to learn how to
work with people from all different backgrounds,

(48:42):
you know, fellow students that don't have English
as a primary first language, you know, so
you writing papers together. You have to figure
out how you're gonna get this done when
you have people that are are just learning
English or don't have, you know, full command
or
you know, and it would be true for,
you know, in another country, you know, you'd
have French is the primary language and you
have it, you know, student who speaks English

(49:03):
struggling, you know, and trying to figure it
out. Yeah.
You know, it's... They throw you into these
settings where you have to produce and
accomplish and you're held accountable to the team
standards.
It's hard to make general statements about all
the professions because you couldn't find a role
in business or law where it's kind of
a solitary role. But I think generally,

(49:24):
the professions do require a lot of teamwork.
And
some degree of, you know, kind of emotional
intelligence. Mh. Those are really critical. I think
generally, you probably have a little bit of
a higher percentage of students in business that
might be on the extroverted end of the
scale. Mh. But I don't know if that's
true, but but probably it leans a little
in that direction. I'm not extroverted. I'm kinda

(49:47):
or I'm sort of right in the middle.
Kinda think I'm just
I'm 1 of these strange ones that sort
of overlaps, kind of right down the center.
Sometimes in introverts. Sometimes extra expert. I've come
out different levels. But, you know, you sort
of pick your personality profile. Yeah. It's probably
pretty obvious, like, you know, if you're an
extra... You're gonna love marketing and if you're
an introvert you're gonna hate it, probably, especially

(50:08):
if you have to be in a marketing
role where you're out with people. Selling products
or what have you and. So sometimes that's
probably pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not. And
back to your earlier point,
sometimes
finding one's calling
as
but lack of a better word trial and
error. You get out. You try something you
find if you really bringing value and flourishing.
And if not, you've shipped into something little

(50:30):
different, hopefully. Feel the opportunities. Right. I think
that's right. And and there there's even
Even within marketing, for example.
You might really love marketing. You don't... You're
not really the best person to be a
marketing representative or sales. Okay. Yeah. But you
you decide that marketing research is your thing.
Okay. And so you you you move in

(50:50):
that direction, which, you know, you're working more
with data and those kinds of things. So...
There's tons of opportunities to adjust as you
go. Yeah. What other advice you have for
the students who might want to major in
business?
Look for practitioners or mentors that you admire.
I think that's really important to find
people that seem to be people of integrity

(51:12):
that are in the field that you're pursuing.
I think keep your eyes open for trends
in the field.
In in in the fields that you're pursuing.
So if you're pursuing marketing, what are the
trends? If you're
pursuing supply chain management, what are the trends
find a... How do I identify those? What
well, what's the step to identify the numbers
first place? Yeah. I think find the find

(51:35):
maybe the the popular journal that does is,
you know, that is kind of the the
the the the the leader in the industry.
Okay. So
if it...
Harvard business review would be a good place
to start. That... That's more around leadership, but
they cover all kinds of issues. But you
know, it could be advertising age or whatever
it is. Right. And if you don't know

(51:56):
you could ask your professor in that field
and here, she could tell you. That... That's
right. They would be able to tell you.
And I wouldn't go with a real academic.
You know, you're not gonna find the academic
journal really interesting. I go with a popular
journal, but that has an empirical rooting. Okay.
So it's written to practitioners, but it's rooted
in in em.
So, you know, there's been studies that have
supported this article

(52:17):
and they're writing an article
expressing these new findings. Mh. And then I
think in any field,
I would
encourage people to take an ecological perspective to
think about not just your peace, but the
whole.
So this gets back to your son and
supply chain management.
1 way to think about supply chain management

(52:38):
is to think about it, you know,
upstream downstream.
K. So supply chain is all all about
kind of the upstream sources.
How are we treating our vendors?
You know, in what ways do we
allow them to flourish?
What are our values that we expressed our
vendors?

(52:59):
The decisions that we make upstream around our
supply chain influence the way we interact downstream
with customers and everybody else.
And so I think as we enter our
fields an ecological perspective is really helpful. It's
much like our natural environment. If 1,
part of our ecosystem is
unhealthy or struggling, it will impact other dimensions

(53:22):
of the Mh ecosystem.
And I think that's
That's a good way to think about law
or business or
engineering, you know, some of these professions begin
to take a more holistic
understanding in your mentor,
or the person you respect in that field
can... And faculty and other member... Faculty members

(53:42):
and teachers and those kinds of things. They
can they can help you take on some
of that perspective.
We we can actually
take that perspective alongside our christian understanding of
the world and begin to work out those
issues. So, yeah. Those would be some of
the thoughts I would have early on as
you're going through the program.
Right. That's good.
I think the other thing that I would...

(54:04):
And and this might apply a little bit
more to graduate
students because the intensity, I think Ratchet up
a little bit. Mh.
I would encourage you to be... To look
for the places where
being a little bit counter cultural might be
the kingdom.
A faithful expression of your faith.
So what what do I mean by that?

(54:25):
You know, in business school. There... There's a
a tendency to sort of take on
team meetings at all times of day and
all times of the week. And maybe maybe
you need to, you know, put a stake
in the ground and say, you know what?
On
on Saturday or Sunday, I'm gonna have a
a period where I'm not gonna... I just
need to I need a break. I need
to have a sabbath of sorts.

(54:47):
Or,
I'm not gonna say yes to every interview.
You know, it's not about,
how many interviews I can put in notch
on my belt so to speak, You know,
How many experiences I can have on
on corporate visits.
It's really about
the 5 best choices I can make about

(55:07):
corporate visits.
So I I don't think we have to
load up
in the ways that some of these
professional schools will ask us to. That would
be true. Mh. I think in law school,
and it would be true
in medical.
Dentistry school as well.

(55:28):
There there there are certain ways that
good behavior can look a certain way
you know, the institution will wanna reward you
for for good behavior and sort of pursuing
the things that are important to the institution,
and in many cases that align up perfectly
fine with your faith.
But in other ways it won't, and I
would encourage students to to just be discerning

(55:50):
about where it doesn't line up. Well, and
then
to give yourself
grace and permission to step out of the
rhythm.
For a season. Mh. So that you don't
fall into the trap of only moving,
you know, in inc with the rhythms of
that institution. Right? But those forces are strong,
and and the and and I think the

(56:10):
inclination
to to follow suit are strong too. Mh.
Well, as in the other institution that professional
school shapes you for good ill. Right?
Right, it it trains you up in a
way you should go,
so
speak a little more about ways that might
go
south that students that I'd be aware of.

(56:32):
Well, I've named a couple.
I I think the other thing that is
true in
professional schools
is, you know, we live in an age
where
we're tempted to just be about self promotion.
I, you know, what is a
What is a healthy vision of ambition?

(56:53):
You know, there's a catholic priest to well
known Catholic priest that pray for at least
1 humiliation a day?
That's a pretty good prayer actually. That's pretty
good. Or give me 1
humiliation a day.
Public humiliation. You know? Hopefully, they're not too
not
the ballots That's there.

(57:13):
You know, it's so easy to wanna
overstate
our accomplishments accomplishments
or our
confidence or capacity.
And and and professional schools will ask you
to do that. Mh.
They're not gonna ask you to do it
intentionally.
But again, it's, you know, it it is
about

(57:35):
promotion. You know? I mean, it it... There
there is a dimension that the professional schools
are are they're rewarded when you do well.
Rewarded when you get the job, they're rewarded
when you
negotiate the high the high salary,
all that stuff circles back and feeds their
their metrics. And
and they
they advertise those metrics. Right? So they want

(57:57):
you to take the highest paying job.
They want you to take all the interviews
you can because they'll put on their
score sheet,
you know, our our students
are in 20 interview. You know, about an
average 20 interviews you know, whatever it is.
I mean, they'll they'll create metrics around this,
and and I get it. And I understand
it, but some of those metrics aren't healthy.

(58:19):
So I would just say, you know, this
idea of self promotion
is something I think in this digital world
we live in that we've sort of fallen
trapped to and
I would encourage students to
to not fall into that trap
because that trap will

(58:39):
that path doesn't lead to good places.
I think a good place to learn
healthy confidence
in our strengths and our own sense of
identity is is really important, and we kinda
lean into those strengths, and we can be
confident in those strengths, but we don't have
try to
extend that in ways that aren't truthful or

(59:00):
aren't natural. Mh. Well, and it's like so
many other things
finding a mentor who's
a little bit down the road and is
wrestled with these things and may come
to some healthy conclusions in ways of
living this out.
So helpful. So for a Freshman, it could
be a senior who thought this through right
or a upper

(59:21):
division undergrad, somebody in the business who's a
believer who's just just kinda thought this through
a little bit. That's right. These are hard
questions. And without the community of,
of others both in the faith and in
the profession. It's just really hard to navigate
those questions.
Yeah. I I remember in business school. This
was in my graduate business program. We would...

(59:43):
We had a Christian fellowship that was really
influenced.
And 1 of the things we did
was we... The older students,
mentor the younger students around interviews. So we
did mock interviews. Mh. And they would also
look at our resumes and they would ask
us really hard questions about our resumes. Like
is that Are you saying that as clearly
and as plainly as truthfully as you can.

(01:00:04):
Mh.
And that was really good to sit with
somebody and to have them?
Listen to you, articulate your experiences,
and then to ask you questions about your
resume.
You know, a level of accountability.
Because we're actually... I... Honestly, you're gonna do
better if you're just truthful and plain. Mh.
Like, this is who I am. These are

(01:00:25):
the experiences I've had.
You know, this is what I haven't had
this experience, but I really look forward to
having this experience. I mean, that's the kind
of thing that resonates with somebody conducting an
interview. Oh, yeah. If somebody just kind of
blown a lot of smoke.
They figure that out quickly. And and so
I I think just having older people that
can ask those hard questions. And then help

(01:00:46):
us set a real pathway of integrity and
and just faithfulness.
As, again, as Christ follows is really helpful.
Mh.
So even as students, maybe are just showing
up on campus, freshman
business majors, where do they find that type
of community among other believers?
It depends a lot on the college, the
university, but I think the campus ministries are

(01:01:07):
an important place to look, you know, the
net nav.
Crew varsity,
fellowship of Christian athletes. There, you know, there's
lots and lots of these these groups and
churches have
campus oriented communities.
There is a the whole Christian studies sis

(01:01:27):
center movement that I'm a part of, which
is growing.
They often have physical properties, so you'll often
be able to identify them because they might
be a place where students gather and meet.
There's... There are lots of opportunities the the
universities will publish religious life,
lists of religious life institutions and and and

(01:01:49):
clubs and groups. So that would be another
place would just be to go to the
the website and just just
search religious life at any university and it's
gonna pull that list for you, and then
you can make make contact. So lots and
lots of opportunities, you know, stand, you... Stan
would know, you... Stan could connect you in
any campus across the country. But there's no

(01:02:10):
shortage of of communities I mean, most of
these large
flagship, public universities have dozens and dozens have
these Christian
organizations. And actually, a number of these have
come together in a new network
called every
student dot com. I think I'll link to
it in the show notes, But you can
put in a campus and find all the
groups there and a little bit about them.

(01:02:31):
So,
how about Christian professional societies in the field?
Is that something that uneven early
stage undergrad should think about or just upper
division undergrad or wait till you're in grad
school if you go that route to join
those professional societies,
Yeah. I think even...
I think younger undergraduate students would be fine.
I think they have...

(01:02:52):
But they're interested in making... Contact, I think
many of them have
programs and opportunities for students. So I would
say look those up, And they some some
print journals and other things were you... It's
online, You could read read what they're writing
and thinking about? Okay. Where do they find
those professional societies?
I know if there's 1 central clearing clearing
house, but, you know, a couple would be

(01:03:14):
Christian Legal Society would be 1 Christian Medical
Dental
association Christian Veterinarian
Medical fellowship, our mission fellowship. Okay.
But you could just, you know, kinda search
around for that. Sure Again, I don't know
of 1 single clearing house, but...
And then you could find probably a group
of Christians. Again, we're... Sort of talking about
supply chain management. There's probably a group of

(01:03:37):
Christians that are thinking in writing and gathering
around supply chain management. But I'd have to
you'd have to kinda poke around and do
some search Yeah. Sure. Okay. Good.
As we wrap up, I wanna go back
a little bit to the
ideas level not that this isn't all related
ideas, but I'd like you to just comment
on from your perspective in your history

(01:03:59):
And as you look forward, where do where
do you see the mainstream ideas in business,
being consistent with a Christian worldview view? And
where do you see some inc
at this moment?
Well, I think part of it is the
broad binary area of what is the purpose
of business?
You know, I would come back to that.
Is it about shareholder wealth
maximization, which still is a predominant theme or

(01:04:21):
is it about something that's a little different
than that? Does it have a more holistic
understanding? If you pick up a copy of,
harvard business review, You'll find articles that
are
pushing the direction of a more holistic
understanding.
And that's probably the leading
practitioner journal. Mh.

(01:04:42):
There... There's a lot of movements within business
as well. So you have triple bottom line,
which is people plan. Profit, and there's even
a fourth forgetting the fourth. Conscientious
capitalism,
conscious capitalism,
business
mission. You know, there's probably 10 movements that
have
well known names that are out there that

(01:05:04):
are pushing the boundaries of what business can
be in the world
and trying to extend the purpose of business.
So there's lots of places to find
good examples.
There's a lot of focus on
business in its role in the environment and
thinking about this larger
ecological
effective. I think that's another place to start

(01:05:26):
and a in a place where, you know,
some businesses are are taking AAA good lead
I think businesses
employ about, you know, just huge numbers of
people and take most of the best hours
of our lives.
If you think about that. So sure, you
know, there's a lot of examples of
organizations and more broadly, but business trying to

(01:05:48):
figure out how to create engaged and empowered
employees Mh. That are flourishing that mh. That
are doing well, because that does contribute to
the well being of the organization and it
contributes to the lives of individuals. So you'll
find all kinds of innovations taking place in
the way that people are being treated and
you know, the health of a culture of

(01:06:08):
an organization, and all things like that. So
there's a lots of signs of redemption and
reconciliation, lots of really good ambassador
ambassadors ship work.
Going on to draw back on some of
that early language from our conversation. Mh. And
I think there's there's negative
things that are going on where,
you know, you've got ethical failures. You have

(01:06:31):
businesses that are
extending their reach. They're over functioning.
They're they're...
I think that's a warning for institutions in
general. I think any institution needs to be
thinking about in what ways are we tempted
to over reach
over or over extend. But 1 of the
ways business does that is to just sap
too much energy out of its employees to

(01:06:52):
take too many of the best hours
and not give them time to replenish and
to invest in their families and communities.
Mh. So I know examples of businesses that
really don't think very intentionally about that, and
they deplete their employees and they take their
best hours and even years.
And I know I know companies where they

(01:07:13):
say, you know,
if you're on vacation, you... You're not allowed
to take your computer with you. Right? Or,
you know, nobody will send an email on
a Sunday. Mh. And we're gonna model that
from the top, and we don't wanna. You
know, we don't wanna see anybody in here
on the week. And if you forget something,
yeah, You can come in and get your
computer or whatever. But, you know, don't come
in and... So there's ways that from the

(01:07:35):
top, organizations have said you need margin. You
need to have a different dimension of life.
So, again, good bad, it shakes out internally.
It shakes out it it it sort of
shakes out externally, lots and lots of examples.
Yeah. It's it's a mixed bag. But I
think there's a there's a lot of focus
on trying to trying to make business better

(01:07:56):
and to to make it a more healthy
field and profession.
Yeah. And I've seen that. I've known some
minimum women leading companies or even in middle
management who have authority over certain area where
they've tried to do that. How do I
How do I care for my employees, my
team,
my my my customers,
my vendors,

(01:08:17):
Right and we're very red ways. And and
the the opportunities are are
there, and sometimes we just have to have
eyes to see. That's right. Yeah. That's right.
Okay.
Well, as we draw to a close has
been fantastic, but anything else you wanna make
sure we touch on.
We've been pretty thorough, I'm just... I have
a feel coming into

(01:08:37):
I we... I think we've covered
covered most of it.
I guess the thing I would wanna encourage
young people and their families it is that
I've walked with a lot of students over
the years who have and families, parents who
wrestled with
the question,
what am I supposed to do? Will it
work out? Will I land

(01:08:58):
in a good way. And I
God's faithfulness is just really...
It it's it it can be trusted in
this area.
You know, we do play a role. We
participate in this. We prepare. We,
you know, we study well, we we think
well as we go. But I

(01:09:18):
I really have seen over and over and
over again God's faithfulness and helping
individuals
discern what's next
it's... He's been faithful in my life, and
I can just say, you know, with hundreds
of others,
hundreds of other students that I've had a
chance to walk with over the years.
I can't think of off hand of 1
bad example. I mean, yeah. There's bet there's

(01:09:40):
jobs that are tough and we make choices
sometimes that Maybe in retrospect aren't the best
choice, but
god's ability to redeem and to gather up
those experiences and to use them and deploy
them
in the future in a way that brings
healing and and
redemption is just

(01:10:00):
un undo. I mean, I've just seen that
happen over and over again. So I would
I would say,
take a big breath, be excited about the
journey you're on.
Don't stress about the economics. I mean, the
economics are real, and I I understand that.
I feel it.
People do need to get jobs, but but
really

(01:10:20):
enjoy the experience,
and
I almost wanna offer a guarantee, like a
money back guarantee, but I'm gonna fall short
of that. I'm not gonna be quite good
because I'm not sure what I could do.
But I almost wanna offer you a money
back guarantee out of the depths of my
heart. That god will be faithful to you
in this journey,

(01:10:40):
and just go with him on this journey.
And have fun exploring
his vocational calling for your life. As a
sample size of
2 now with 2 of us on the...
This call has been my experience too. Yeah.
Yeah absolutely.
Mh. Well, there there you go. And you
got... And you got a big you've got
a big, field of experience. And so there

(01:11:01):
there are 2 of us Right? I don't
know how many hundreds of students and families.
But
yeah. It's... It really is true and it's
Stand. It is. It is good word. Glad
you mentioned that. Okay. If that's important to
keep in mind.
Alright. Well, last question,
Is there anywhere else you'd wanna
suggest
people listening to this podcast go to get
more information. We've talked about a lot of

(01:11:23):
resources websites booked. Anything else you didn't mention
that people should know about.
1 resource, it's a pretty good resource that
you can just search and you can search
it topical as well. It's first 1 that
comes to mind,
there's lots of good books that have been
written. And
1 is the theology of work project that
is a commentary on the bible.

(01:11:45):
From a work perspective. So this idea of
vocation, work calling.
They've they've gathered,
over many years, a team of practitioners and
theologian.
To write these commentaries
on every book of the bible.
So,
p,
what does it have to say about the
workings place. So the of numbers. I mean,

(01:12:05):
I'm reading Lu... I just finished Levi vi
this morning. I've been in Levi vi for
a couple weeks.
So, you know, I I don't I can't...
I'm not remembering any work... But well, there
are certainly workplace
components to to some of these books that
don't seem as obvious to us from the
Bible. But they've also taken on all kinds
of topics like, how do you

(01:12:25):
negotiate a salary or
how should you pay people or, you know,
they've got all kinds of topical articles as
well. So that's a good source theology of
work. Dot org, I believe you can correct
that if I'm wrong, but that's a really
good resource. So that would be the 1
that I might highlight today.
Good. I'll mention also that there are somewhere

(01:12:48):
above a thousand different ministries out there that
engage
business professionals. So this is when students graduate
they're in into profession as believers and they
want to. Mh. To... They have resources or
being some type of a community,
I think they probably often have student,
either chapters or student

(01:13:09):
resources.
But,
the the worry is, and I a friend
who was thinking about starting 1 and did
a lot of research and found that the
vast majority
were very superficial in terms of what they
under stood as
as the role of one's faith in in
business. It was nothing more than having maybe
a

(01:13:29):
a plaque on your desk or a bible
on the shelf. And. So, you know, I
think a word of caution is, you look
for those people
resources,
organizations that are that are delving into the
kind of things we've talked about, more of
a a robust understanding of what it is
to
be in business as a believer and seek

(01:13:51):
the common good and and and not only
see it at in instrumental
terms as this is a way to have
a platform to do the important work of
share my faith, which, of course, that's important
to do. But sometimes that's sort of the
the narrative you get that. The only reason
you should try to be
in business or good business is so you
can do the really important stuff of of
of proclaiming a gospel and the point you're

(01:14:13):
making, and and I think is being made
or more is no,
all of our work can be valuable
and kingdom oriented,
including but not limited to, our direct ministry
of in a disciples ship. So there's some
ministries that get that right and suddenly get
them get it wrong actually in materials. And
so I wanna put a plug in for
those good sources in light of the conversations

(01:14:34):
we've had the cheap that is into that
I think are so critical.
Yeah. I'm really glad you raised that point.
That is really through. And I think that
is an instrumental
perspective that it ultimately
doesn't serve the kingdom
all that well. I think the opportunities to
share our faith are there and they're even
strengthened as we do good work. Sure. But

(01:14:55):
we do good work, not because
we wanna share our faith. We do good
work as a reflection of our love of
god.
And and and our faithfulness to serve him
well. And to bless other people and that
opens doors
to
to be able to share our faith, but
it's not the reason we do it. Right.

(01:15:15):
Right out.
Well, John, thanks for your time. This has
been... As always stimulating to me and a
lot of fun to hear you wax eli
on some of these issues.
Well, thanks, Stan. Fun to be a part
of this and,
fun to speak to,
parents and, students and others who are listening.
So just... If I could be a resource,

(01:15:37):
don't hesitate to put my contact information there.
I'm glad to follow with anybody that wants
step of conversation.
Thanks so much.
That brings us to the end of this
edition of the college faith podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this... Conversation at the
intersection of Christian conviction and higher education.
Be sure to check out today's show notes

(01:15:57):
at college faith dot net slash podcasts,
where you can find more information and links
to the resources we discussed.
If you found this podcast helpful,
Please help spread the word by liking my
college Faith Facebook page at facebook
dot com slash college faith and pass the
show on to others who may enjoy hearing

(01:16:18):
our conversation.
Please do visit our sponsor,
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to help equip Christian professors to be salt
and light for Christ on their campuses.
Until next time, this is Stan Wallace, encouraging
you to love the your god with both
heart and mind during the university years and
beyond.

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