The Charlie Kirk Episode: War or Peace?

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After the Charlie Kirk murder, the nation seems to be in an uproar, with each day escalating more than the day before. What happens next for us? What happens next for the church? Markus and Antwuan discuss the church's role in responding to Charlie Kirk's death, and the Christians' responsibility in an explosive and divided political environment.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
What's up, what's up, what's up?
How are we doing out there,Colored Commentary Family?
This is Colored Commentary.
Colorful conversations bycolorful people about
Christianity, culture, and race.
I'm your host, Marcus Lloyd.
And with me as always is alsothe host, Mr.
Grant Grantuine Malone.

SPEAKER_06 (00:29):
Yo, what's up, everybody?
Yes, I'm uh I'm growing my longbeard.
I changed my look.
Actually, I'm not gonna grow.
Although I have I have thoughtabout it.
I've thought about um adifferent facial.

SPEAKER_02 (00:43):
Can you can you grow a beard?
I can.
Oh, you can?
I've never I've never seenanything close.

SPEAKER_06 (00:50):
It's an odd fact that I didn't actually start
growing the rest of this likefacial hair.
If you're on the video, I'mpointing to where it will be
like right here.

SPEAKER_04 (00:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:59):
Um until like 29 or 30 is like it wasn't coming in.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05):
I I didn't have to right, I didn't shave my cheeks.
Um for any of my 20s, okay.
Neither set of cheeks wereshaved.
Okay, good.
But um, and then right around30, I did.
So I that's right.

(01:25):
So interesting.
So yeah, but it's starting togrow, it grows out now.
I have to shave it more oftenthan uh used to.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29):
You should try it.
I just want to see in November.
What is it?
The no-shave November.
I think you should try.
I want to just see what thisbeard does.
I want to see.

SPEAKER_06 (01:38):
You know, I got a life rule of uh
maintenance-free.
I hear that's possible.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
Well, then a beard is not what you want.
That's why it's it's only forNovember, though.
It's just it's just to try it sowe can see.
You know, we have obviously apepper.
She's always talking aboutbeards are men's makeup, right?
It's how you kind of contouryour face and make things.
I was, I think we were in asession the other day.
I was like, I think I'm gonnashave off the goatee.
She's like, no, right, becauseeverybody, because my face
apparently is that offensive.

(02:04):
The last time I did it,everybody was really offended.

SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
I didn't wonder.
They were so offended when theysaw the naked chin come into a
meeting.
They were like, What is this?
Put something on those, uh, onthat naked chin that you got.

SPEAKER_06 (02:17):
We don't need something on that.

SPEAKER_03 (02:18):
Look, I almost shaved it off the other day.
I was just, you know, me.
Like, I I'll I'll change a lookand it will be like, Yeah,
you've changed, you've got allkinds of legitimate.
I will go, I will, I will wakeup in the morning and be like,
I'm cutting these dreads off.

SPEAKER_06 (02:29):
Somehow it feels right.
I mean, or it feels, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:33):
It's all right.
It's all right.
Yeah, uh man, but good, good tobe here.
Uh, today uh is I'm glad we'rekind of starting off with a
little left or right, becausetoday is actually dealing with
some stuff that's just beencrazy.
Yeah.
Um, anybody who's been watchingright now in this conversation
uh and in our world, um, can'thelp but get into the
conversation, the ever-growingconversation around uh the

(02:54):
murder of Charlie Kirk.
Uh so I I'm I I understand likethis already, like being saying
names uh on here and um bringingthe conversation in is already
just a weird feeling because itfeels like you can't even talk
about this conversation.

SPEAKER_06 (03:12):
It's so explosive right now.
And I mean, I know of and youprobably do too, several pastors
who are working throughconversations from their
congregation um because theyaddressed or didn't address or
addressed uh in a way that youknow didn't appease everyone on
the Sunday afterwards.

(03:33):
And of course, the news media uhcycle is all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (03:39):
Um, there's been so much development in the story
and the murder of the the murdersuspect, right?
And what does it all mean?
And what does it mean for ourculture?
What does it mean forChristianity and the church?
Uh who am I gonna follow?
What church I'm gonna belong to?
Like it's it's just so muchconversation um that's going on

(03:59):
um after after Charlie Carker.
I'm not quite sure whether it'suh purely him or if he's just
the final um straw in a seriesof things.
Okay um it's probably that'sprobably a little bit of both in
some ways for some people, butit's so interesting though.

SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
I'm gonna say this, and this is going to be
completely I'm gonna sayprobably really offensive, but
I'm really like everything we'regonna say today is gonna be
really no no we're gonna we'regonna try.
No, I'm gonna just try, buthere's what here's what's
interesting to me, right?
Like the particularly in the waypeople responded on the Sunday
morning.
You already mentioned, like, wejust went through a Sunday
morning.
I saw people on TikTok who arelike tic-tac, tick tock.

(04:43):
I saw some people on TikTok, anduh, and they were talking about
their pastor didn't mentionCharlie Kurt's name, and they're
like, So, as you know, I'mlooking for another church.
I also ran into folks just who Iknew that like it if you if you
did mention it, then I'm lookingfor another church.
It reminded me, I know it's notthe same.

(05:04):
So do not please do not respondto this particular trigger.

SPEAKER_06 (05:07):
I think you're about to say the same thing that
people have been saying.

SPEAKER_03 (05:09):
Yeah, exactly, which you've probably seen.
It's a lot like what happenedwith George Floyd.
Yeah, it's it's it's the samething, it's it's what happened
in the opposite direction.

SPEAKER_06 (05:16):
The anti, yeah, yeah, it's this it's almost the
anti-George Floyd in the sensethat it's bringing up the
opposite the opposite either theopposite conversation or the
yeah, the opposite, the yes, theenergies have changed something.

SPEAKER_03 (05:27):
In the and kind of even in the liberal and
conservative idea, right?
And even that conversation,because we did it, you know, we
were around when thatconversation was going on, yeah,
and we saw that in the in theearly moments, the early moments
of that murder, right?
That that both sides cametogether around this is a
horrific act, right?
This is a horrific thing that wesaw.
And then within you know, 48hours or whatever it is, all the

(05:48):
cycle started, and it becameimmediately like, oh, we had
unity for just a minute aroundhuman life, and then we had to
turn it into and politicize itto our benefit, right?
It's like who's the who can getto the fat who can get to the
political politicization,politic, politicization, yeah,
interpret and interpretationinterpretation around a
political idea.
How how quickly can we get thereafter these stories?

(06:09):
And so when it happened withCharlie Kirk, I was like, I
know, I know it's coming, andand it and it did not take long.

SPEAKER_06 (06:17):
Um, yeah, so yeah, it it's it's an interesting,
it's interesting to watch, youknow.

SPEAKER_03 (06:22):
When I think we've joked around about this, um, or
I don't know, not about thissubject here, just not this
subject, but this thing I'mgonna say next.

SPEAKER_06 (06:30):
Like, like uh, or maybe it wasn't a joke, but I've
I've I've considered myself theunpopular popular kid and what
I've what what I've said when Iwas in high school, right?
And what that meant was that uhI was never in anyone's one
circle, yeah.
But I could I was always outsidethose circles, but I could be in
any of these circles, like Icould go sit with whoever jucks
or the music people thatwhatever.

(06:52):
And I could be there and it itwasn't a problem, but I wasn't
that that wasn't my people,yeah.
And what that when I was in highschool, what it afforded me an
ability to do is to watch is thepeople watching thing, yeah, you
to watch group dynamics happenum in front of you, and you
know, it's a really it for mewas really interesting, um, kind

(07:12):
of human experiment or uhobservation.
And this feels like that for mea little bit.
Like I'm I I I don't believe Iwouldn't say that I'm in I'm not
in the liberal camp, I'm notfully in the conservative camp.
Um the way people, the wayChristian, even the word

(07:32):
Christian, has been utilized insociety, uh, as it's been
attached to various ideas andideologies.
I I'm a very particular type ofChristian, you know, and so I'm
really careful with with sayingI'm in the Christian camp
according to social definition.
All right.
I would say I'm a Christfollower, I would say that I'm a
Christian in that sense.
Um but it's interesting inchurch and all that, right?

(07:55):
Um, white, black, I'm not white,but uh black, so the race
conversation, like it'sinteresting watching the
cafeteria of groups, okay,right, respond and and how um
how group thinky we still westill are because part of my

(08:17):
revelation, maybe observationbetter in high school was man,
people just sometimes move ingroups.
You know what's the funniestthing?
This is funny to me, actually,true.
Like ha ha or yeah, it is alittle ha ha because one of the
things that my parents and yourparents probably said the same
thing to you too.
Say if everybody jumps off acliff, don't you jump up?
Yep, right?
Right, we if you are of acertain age, you have heard or

(08:39):
said something in that arena,yes, and maybe said it to your
own kids, right?
Like if everyone listen, yeah,if everyone is jumping off a
cliff, that doesn't mean youhave to.
That's right, but what weexperience, even in a response
to Charlie Kirk, yeah, iscorporate cliff jumping.

SPEAKER_03 (08:58):
Yeah, which write that down.
That's uh I'm putting it downimmediately.

SPEAKER_06 (09:04):
Whichever group you're in, everyone's jumping
off a cliff, uh-huh, and youfeel like you should too.
Why?
And that there's something wrongif you don't, if you don't, and
there's something wrong withthem if they don't, right?
And so I I lament uh I themurder of Charlie Kirk is

(09:24):
lamentable because it's a lifethat's precious that should not
have been taken, and it is uh uhcertainly not uh and then
certainly not taken in a murder,uh you know, but life is
precious anyway, but even thehorrific way that it happened,
right, the public way that ithappened, the gruesome way that

(09:45):
it that we all watched it, thosewho chose to look at it, like
that is uh uh that is worthlament, and it is worth taking a
moment uh to reflect about,which takes me to number two,
which is to say, what does thethere's there's the murder, and
it's what does the murder mean?

(10:05):
Yeah, and it's it's questionnumber two is where I think all
this issue is okay.
What does the murder actuallymean?
And there's different cliffjumpers who are choosing
different answers to what itmeans, what this means and what
we should do about it, you know.
I feel like that's where we are,and and that would be fine in a

(10:26):
way, but if the church was inthe midst of it and div and
divided about it.

SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
And uh if the church w wasn't in the midst of it, is
that what you said?

SPEAKER_06 (10:36):
That would be okay if the church wasn't, yeah.
I'm sorry.
If the church wasn't in themidst of it, uh thanks for the
correction, and and um anddivided about it, and divided
about it.
But as it turns out, there's aset of cliffs inside the church
of America, and there's groupsat those cliffs, right?
And we're we're participating inthe same sort of group think

(10:57):
there, and it's creating thisdivision.
And the world is going to be theworse for that division in the
church.
Right.
I think that's where that'swhere I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
I I think I think you're absolutely right.
I think going into theconversation about the the unity
in the in the space is is is uhis very on brand, if you will,
for us, right?
Like we're we're constantlywanting to engage in the unity
conversation and recognize thatuh the power of the church being
unified across these things, orthe power of the recognition of
that there's there's really one,it's hard for me to say there's

(11:30):
really just one camp to cliffdive off of or cliff jump off
of.
But I think that that's part ofwhat submitting your life to
this work, submitting your lifeto Christ is the ultimate cliff
jump, right?
Where you go, this is the cliffI'm jumping off of, and I'm
leaving the other things behind.
But for whatever reason, in ourAmerican context, about church

(11:50):
particularly, we we don't see uma kind of uh uniformity or not
uniformity, unity in in Christas uh as something that is easy
to find.
Um even though we may all saythat that's what we're trying to
do, that we're actually tryingto follow Christ in our in our

(12:10):
uh tribal cliff jumping.

SPEAKER_06 (12:12):
And that's what makes it hard.

SPEAKER_03 (12:13):
And that's what's super hard because it all it
everybody's got a everybody hasgot a great story about it, a
great line, a great I'm not I'mgonna I'm being I'm being
charitable.
Everybody's got a greatexplanation of why the way that
they're thinking about this andthe way they want their church
to talk about this and the waythey want to talk about it is a
God thing.

(12:34):
And so the question becomes howdo you even decipher like what
is the actual God thing in themidst of it?
Yeah, how do you start like so?
For this, I mean, here's uh thestart.
Everybody is made in the imageof God.
Okay, I mean that's we can allagree with that.
That's what I'm hoping that wecan start with.
Is like that we're all made thatthere's none who are greater and

(12:57):
none who are less than.
I would say I I I would saysometimes the messages that are
out there, even by the peoplewho were mourning and lamenting,
may say things that sounddifferent than that.

SPEAKER_06 (13:12):
Agree, right?
And that's what's that's maybemaybe accidentally, maybe
accidentally, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (13:17):
Yeah, because we'll we'll yeah, um go ahead.
Well, I would just I just that'sI think that's where people
struggle, is like we all want towe we agree that all people are
made in the image of God.
But I think if you're in oneparticular camp and you get one
set of of uh uh videos on yourInstagram and TikTok uh and you
uh about Charlie Kirk, you'regoing to hear a person who

(13:38):
sounds like they don't believethat everybody is made in the
equal image of God.
That's the message basicallythat some lives matter more than
others.
And nothing else, that somelives are more inferior than
others, right?
Like they're not quite as goodor they don't line up as well,
or they have some pathologyabout them in the ways that they

(13:59):
are constructed and do thingsthat make them less than.
Uh, and so again, if you're ifyou're getting one line of of
your of the the algorithmsending you that, that's what
you're hearing.
So then when you see somethinghappen to this child, to this
child made in the image of God,it's hard for you then to find
the ability to mourn becauseyou've you've you've taken in

(14:20):
these other these other uhthings that this person has
said.

SPEAKER_06 (14:24):
I still So in this example, the person would see
the person as less.

SPEAKER_03 (14:28):
Yes, the person would say, Oh, because you
thought of other people less, Ican now think of you less.
Right.
I'm modeling your own thinkingfor you.

SPEAKER_02 (14:35):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (14:35):
And I just think that that is that's the that's
the wrong.
I mean, that's that is if youagain Christ follower.
I don't know how other peoplethink about it.
Some people are eye for an eye,whatever, but if you're a Christ
follower, that's not that's notthe way it works, right?
So if you've submitted to Christand you're saying I'm trying to
figure this out from a Christianstandpoint, that is not true.
I don't care what the person hassaid that that's that doesn't
change what God has said aboutthem, right?

(14:57):
Right.
So that's a place that we shouldbe able to agree and start from.

SPEAKER_06 (14:59):
We we should be able to, but there's this pesky,
there's this pesky uh extra uhrequirement on our value
statement that we allow to comein.
It is American sensibility,ethnic sensibility, uh
ideological sensibilities, allthose things add extra sauce to
people's lives in our heads.

(15:21):
So the meat, the meat is yes,made the child of God, but then
yeah, yeah, it's almost like themade the child of God is the is
the minimum, yeah, not thewhole.

SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
Not the whole.

SPEAKER_06 (15:29):
Okay, so we we can all start with children.

SPEAKER_03 (15:31):
It's the protein.

SPEAKER_06 (15:32):
Everybody gets the protein in the everybody gets
the same 10 points for being achild of God, but then you get
the way it seems like we behave.
Yeah, well, if you agree with mepolitically, I'll sprinkle a
couple more on your life.
Uh if you happen to have thesame skin color as me, I'll
sprinkle.
Uh, if we are in the same socialclass, I'll sprinkle, you know.
Um, do you like the cowboys?

SPEAKER_03 (15:53):
You know, like you could take my sprinkle off
immediately.
You don't need that.

SPEAKER_06 (15:56):
No, they don't.
The point is, like, we start tobring in these value, why we say
sprinkles, I'm about to sayseasonings, I don't know, man.
Whatever.
Yeah, but we start bringing webring these other things, and
next thing you know, you have ahierarchy of value in society,
and now you're living andwalking things through with this

(16:17):
hierarchy, and the scripture isneutralizing that hierarchy on
the regular Christ is constantlycalling us to the point that you
just made that that your valueis because you've made an image
of God, and I believe your valueis uh set by that, and it's set
by your life was worth dying forby Christ.
Right, those things havehappened, and nothing can undo

(16:40):
those.
So, so those, yeah, those thingswrite the price of your value,
nothing else can shape that,shape that.
Um, all this other stuff isancillary to value now, you
know, and uh to the value oflife.
So when someone like CharlieKirk gets murdered, whether you
agree with him and he had a lotof value to the way that you do

(17:01):
things or not, as believers,it's gotta be that we lament the
loss of precious life bought forby the blood of Christ and image
by the Father, uh and by thewell, not just father, but by
God, by the by the whole thewholeness of the Trinity.

SPEAKER_03 (17:19):
Yeah, and now so it goes to that point I think you
were talking about even earlier,right?
That there is this next piecethat also requires, I think,
some lament, is that we dosprinkle.
Yes, you know what I mean.
Like that's I think that'swhat's hard too.
Like, I'm thinking about it, andI'm thinking about people who
are listening right now, maybewho've heard it before, and like
there's still they're still notsold.

(17:40):
It's still not quite an it's ifI get you, it's too simple, it's
too soft, it's too soft, you'renot you're not going after
because this dude said this, orbecause of that, and you're
like, Yes, but here's what'sit's we should also be lamenting
the fact that our division, ourrhetoric, and our sprinkling, if

(18:01):
you will, created a scenariowhere somebody plotted a murder
on someone that they didn't evenknow.
They didn't know this catpersonally, they had only heard
his rhetoric, they disagreed,they put the sprinkle on of
what's valuable andhierarchical, they planned out a
murder and did it.

(18:22):
Right.
Can we lament that too?
That our political environmenthas gotten to the point where
people are planning murders onpeople because of what they say,
right?

SPEAKER_06 (18:33):
And and that's where the next question I said
earlier, I said there's thethere's the issue of the murder
itself that you got to dealwith, and that's kind of what
we're talking about right now.
And then it's what the what themurder means.
Yeah, and for me, while there'sa lot of Christian voices who
would say the this murder meansthat the Christian voice is

(18:54):
under attack.

SPEAKER_04 (18:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_06 (18:55):
That's what it means to some people.
That's not what it means to me.
Um what this murder means isthis is the state to the point
of dread.
This is the state of ourpolitics.
That we have politics that wehave gotten to a place where um
where dissenting opinions canlead to murder.

SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
Now it doesn't always lead to murder, but it
can lead not with a gun, but itcan lead to Jesus' version of
murder, hate and all that.

SPEAKER_06 (19:27):
But it can lead to murder.
And I think what this, whatCharlie Kerr's death should be
doing, and this is my opinion,what it should be doing from an
American from an American pointof view, as American citizens,
I'm speaking as Americancitizens, not as kingdom
citizens at this moment, not asChrist centered, but as American
citizens at the moment.

(19:49):
What it should tell us is, hey,it's a kind of harbinger of
things to come.
This is this is something thatif we're gonna this is a this is
a feature of the moment we'rein.
And it's kind of a uh a flairthat says, hey, this is who

(20:09):
we're becoming.
Now, the irony of what I'mtrying to tell you is what
should what should be happeningto us, we should be saying,
whoa, we have created I I usegreenhouses a lot in the church
where I'm teaching about uh aspace that is facilitating an
outcome, facilitating growth,and greenhouses do that, right?
Yeah, but we have built agreenhouse where murder is

(20:33):
regular, right?
And the the the thing growing inour greenhouse is death, right?
And and so how do we get here?
And I think what it would beencouraging, but it's not
happening, is this look back tosay we've got to figure out how
to disagree and hold these theseconversations without producing

(20:58):
murderous greenhouses.
But the irony of that is it'sactually creating more energy
for more death.
The energy that's coming out ofthe conversation, whether it's
righteous anger or not, is war.
We need to fight more.

(21:19):
We need to, we need, we need to,we need to pick up, we need to
pick up more weapons, right?
And so um it's it's it'sdisheartening for me, uh, the
way that I see it, that whatshould be a warning sign that
says, hey, things have gottentoo far, is more like a launch
pad that says we need to do moreof this.

(21:42):
And it feels like that's wheresociety is going.
And the unfortunate thing for mein the midst of all that is some
of the voices that are callingfor more war, yeah, for more
fight, yeah, are those who wouldcall themselves Christians.
Yeah, those people.
And it's irrelevant for me in ain a moment like this, it's

(22:04):
irrelevant in some ways for meto say rather I agree with your
sentiment about what you feelabout what Kirk believes.
Um that's his name, Kirk.

SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (22:17):
Uh what he believes.
My problem is Christ never callsus to war.
Right.
And our response can't be thatwe're gonna pick up our guns and
fight each other and create morespace for more for more war.
And it feels like it feels likea lot of that is coming out of
some of those who would callthem some of the some of them I

(22:40):
don't know if I would call thoseextreme, uh, but when I'm
hearing that out of Christians'voices, um, that's a statement
that has very little to do withyour ideology and has a whole
lot to do with your methodologyfor how you're going to get what
you want done, done.
It cannot be via the picking upof sores and guns, right?

SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
I'll go even further, right?
Because I do I do think thatthere is an aspect of where you
get to that that point of whereyou pick up swords and guns.
But I think there's a long,there's a long trail that gets
us there, right?
Which is what I think we'rebeing exposed to.
Um, you know, I we we here inDallas, right?
We've got this uh um uh uh equalrights uh museum down here, and
there's this room that's filledwith all uh kind of stories of

(23:20):
the multiple genocides that havehappened throughout the um the
the world.
Uh I can't remember the the timeframe it gives, but it's got you
know it's got uh Rwanda, it'sgot uh Holocaust and so forth
and so on.
And um and it and it actuallyoutlines um the stages um that
happen before you get to thisgenocide.
They of the the how is itpossible that in a country that

(23:41):
was 93% Christian um in Rwandathat all of a sudden in a
particular month these tribeswere turned against each other,
Christians against Christians,and they killed almost a million
people within a month.
How is that possible?
Well, one of the things thatstarted with that is just
dehumanization.
You just dehumanize people,right?
It becomes so much easier tokill somebody if you have named

(24:02):
them something that is killable.
Uh there are cockroaches, right?
So they they that that's thatwas a a term used a lot in uh
Rwandan uh before the genocideis if he was talking about
cockroaches.
Well, you don't mind.
I you all grew up in Houston,you know what I'm saying?
Like cockroaches wereeverywhere, they fly by and
nobody has any problem steppingon a cockroach.
They think that's what you'resupposed to do.
So if that's your mentality,then when you hear somebody
talked about as a cockroach, itbecomes easier.
And over time, you're able toget to the point where you think

(24:24):
it becomes easier for you to dothat.
Now it becomes it, it's not justabout then dehumanization and
then you all of a sudden you'reready to go and shoot somebody,
right?
It has to get there's somethingthat Jesus understands about
that he talks about in theSermon on the Mount, this idea
of you know, you have heard itsaid, you know, uh love your
love your neighbor, hate yourenemy, right?
He's like, no, you not only youlove your neighbor, but you love
your enemy and pray for thosewho persecute you.

(24:45):
This is the alternate, this isthe alternate the answer to a
world where all where everybodyends up blind because they're an
eye for an eye.
This is the answer to that.
Jesus is saying there'ssomething that you are, when you
decide to be a part and submitto this particular cliff jumper,
if you will, group.
What we do here is we actuallyde-escalate those things.
We actually turn it on its head.
So instead of moving towardsthis move of of allowing hate to

(25:08):
come into your life, you movetoward love.
I I can't continue to rememberuh um when I was uh I was
reading uh Jesus and thedisinherited uh Howard Thurman,
uh, there's a great sort ofstory he tells in there, but he
he says this thing about hatred.
He said, Hey, hatred bears uhdeadly and bitter fruit.
It is blind andnon-discriminating.
True, it begins by exercisingspecific discrimination.

(25:30):
This it does by centering uponthe persons responsible for the
situations which create thereaction of resentment,
bitterness, and hatred.
But once hatred is released, itcannot be confined to the
offenders alone.
It is difficult for hatred to beinformed as to the object which
it gets, uh which gets under,which it gets under its way.

(25:51):
So hatred doesn't stop.
You we start with this idea, I'mgonna hate this person, I'm
gonna hate this group, but oncewe allow that hatred to come,
the group is just the start.
Hatred actually has amultiplying effect that it
actually starts moving intoother things around you.
In fact, in Harwood Thurman inhis book, he was talking about
talking to a man one time whowas white and he's black, and

(26:13):
the man tells, he tells him, I'mteaching my kids not to hate
Negroes.
And not because he grew negroesneed to are good, it's just
because I know if I teach my sonto hate anything, the hatred
will cannot be controlled onceit's set in motion.
Right.
And so I think that that's wherewe we've allowed ourselves to
enter into this thiscommunication about other people

(26:36):
in ways that are hateful.
We've allowed it.
It's the same thing you saw atthe beginning of all the good
war of all the of all the worldwars, right?
The media, the most the time assoon as the the Japanese bombed
Pearl Harbor and people wereallowed to hate Japanese, then
it became so easy to go now anddrop atom bombs on them, right?
Because the hatred started.
And I think we've been in aseason for uh oh probably the

(26:57):
last 10 years or so where hatredis seven, eight fermented for
easy, where hatred is allowed,even in the church.
You are seeing these clips ofpastors from their pulpits
spewing hate about otherindividuals just because they're
not a part of the clique,whether it be they're not a part
of their liberal group or not apart of their conservative
group.
We have allowed hatred to be apart of our rhetoric in the

(27:21):
church, and we have not listenedto what Christ has engaged us
with.

SPEAKER_06 (27:24):
I mean, I think that's very good.
I mean, from a social point ofview is dehumanization, right?
And it's it's also true.
This and what I'm gonna say too,so these aren't mutually
exclusive, but in the in the inthe church is demonization.

SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Oh, okay, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 (27:38):
So dehumanization from the social point of view,
hey, we get to we get to takeyou out because you are no
longer good for society.
That you're neutral, or actuallyyou're a nuisance or negative to
society.
Yeah, we'll call you rats, we'llcall you cockroaches, we'll call
you vermin, we'll call you that.
The church's version, the thequote unquote, the little uh,
you know, the the the so-calledchurch's version of that is

(28:01):
demonization to say you are nolonger good for the kingdom, in
fact, you're neutral to thekingdom, or you are negative to
the kingdom, and therefore youare our enemy, and we are
supposed to vanquish demons,right?
And so now you're using God'sname as a demon, and you're
using God's name as in vain fora campaign that he doesn't have

(28:22):
his name on, and so as a result,you have in some churches a
comfortability with hatredtoward certain persons because
they've been demonized, and inthat language, it that's not a
stretch, like that's thelanguage that's being as you're
hearing it.
Yes, like you might hear thattoday if you tune in uh to any

(28:45):
particular uh social media postor um news news uh report, is
that we have moved todemonization, and it is the
enemy getting bonus points whenthat happens because he doesn't
have to continue if he can getthe group to move in a certain

(29:06):
way and create the pressure ofthe group again.
If we can get everyone to jumpoff the same cliff, right?
Like he doesn't have to pusheach one individually, they're
gonna jump themselves, and it'sjust extra.
And what I'm concerned about, umwhether you believe it, it is
almost there's a whole notherconversation to be had about
whether you believe what CharlieClark believed or aspounded to

(29:29):
his ideologies and all that.
I'm less concerned with that.
My concern for the church isthat we'd be careful careful
about demonization, and wehaven't even asked ourselves the
question of what you just saidand uh remind us about in the
Sermon on the Mount.
Pray for those who persecuteyou.
Now, there are gonna be somepeople who say Charlie's Charlie

(29:50):
Kirk's death was a persecution.
You listening to this, you mayagree with that, you may
disagree with that.
For those of you who agree withthat, that it was a persecution.
That it was a persecution.
Jesus is challenging you to say,love those who persecute you.
Bless the bless those whopersecute you.
Pray for those who despitefullyuse you in persecution.
He that's what he hisprescription for the response to

(30:14):
the persecution is love andbless.
Bless and pray.
Now, um, so that's your that'syour work.

SPEAKER_04 (30:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (30:24):
What he didn't say to the Roman, to the Jews who
are under the Roman thumb,right?
Because Jesus is not talking ina vacuum where he's not in a
situation where injustice ishappening, he's in a situation
where there's some injusticesthat are happening.
And he's saying this in thecontext of that.
So it's not removed.
It's his core audience has thesame challenge that we have
today to as we're dealing withdifferent types of things.

(30:47):
He's telling them that we haveto, if you're in that space
where that's where you are,you've got to allow Jesus to
challenge you in that.
What does it look like to loveto heed the words of Jesus
amidst this persecution?
Now, um, the American and thejungle mentality and the
biology, your body, yeah, yourbody who's fighting, yes, your

(31:07):
flesh who is fighting for thesurvival of itself, that's
right, will tell you that thatis not the way of survival.
And so the way to get forward isto use your power to dominate,
yeah, or to destroy.
And so we're gonna have to dothat, and so your your flesh is
pushing you in that way, andJesus is saying no, the response

(31:31):
to persecution, and not onlydoes Jesus say it, but so does
Paul say it, does Peter say it,and it's over and over in the
new New Testament of how werespond um to these things.
In fact, there's no place in thenew I challenge anyone to tell
me there's no place in the NewTestament where Jesus says, you
know what, the response topersecution is war or is

(31:53):
fighting back.

SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
You know, I wrote a I wrote a chapter that they cut
out.
You did?
Yeah, it was Mark Marcus.

SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
Yeah, chapter of Marcus, Marcus one, otherwise,
letter to the church of MarcusOne, Marcus is one.
Yeah, it's one you see.
Yeah, it's like five limit.
It's short, it's Jews, and it'sliterally like that's what I
said in that yeah, just thatline.

SPEAKER_06 (32:10):
Hey, when you're persecuted as believers, fight
back.
That's not what we see.
We haven't seen that in wehaven't seen it.
You don't have to like that.

SPEAKER_03 (32:18):
You don't have to like it.
But you have to understand that.

SPEAKER_06 (32:20):
But if you're gonna call yourself a Christian and
you're gonna heed to what thescriptures say, which is what
you're saying Charlie Kirk wasdoing, that's what you're saying
he was doing, then for those ofyou who who hold to that, then
you've got to hold yourself tothe things that Jesus called you
to, not to the Americansensibility, not to the American
cultural way of doing things,not to your flesh, not to your

(32:41):
group.
Right?
It's gotta be what Christ callsyou to, and and that's gotta
challenge you.
If it doesn't challenge you,then you cannot you should not
put his name on your campaign.

SPEAKER_03 (32:54):
Get his name out your mouth.
And here's what's so uh thefascinating piece to me is
again, I I I love I love readingthe Bible and continuing to see
how it how it reads me and howit reads the situation of every
generation as it comes incontact with it.

(33:14):
The situation we're dealing within America right now is not
surprising.
In fact, I would say it's it'stypical.

SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (33:22):
I would say it's typical.
You can go back in historyacross generations, I don't know
how long people think peoplehave been on earth, whatever,
and you will find everythingwe're expensive right now is
typical.
It's why I think again that youlook at you, you look at you
look at the the New Testamentand what Jesus had to say, and
you're like, why is it so short?
Because he knew that there'sjust really a couple of
situations that are gonna keepcoming up over and over again in
society.

(33:42):
So I'm gonna give you, and Ithink the Sermon on the Mount is
like the the place that you wantto find, like, hey, you want to
find out what's gonna be comingfor you uh and what you need to
do about it, what's gonna betypical in every situation, this
is this is gonna speak to it.
And let's just say war, civilwar, uh battles inside of
particular entities haven't.
I mean, we can go, we don't youdon't need I know people trying
to take history books out,right?

(34:02):
But if you if you crack open anyhistoric book about the world,
about the United States, youwill find these kinds of
internal struggles, whether theygo to full civil war or not, you
will find them.
And Jesus's response is to tryto create a people who will
de-escalate that, right?
Like that's our job in thesemoments when these typical
things come where flesh takesover, is that we are the ones

(34:24):
who are supposed to bring acounter narrative that is
spirit-led, that issupernatural.
We are supposed to bring thespirit of God in that place to
de-escalate it.

SPEAKER_06 (34:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (34:33):
And yet, what I'm seeing is that we are moving
into the flesh piece.
We are following the typical, weare typical.
I have never wanted to betypical in my entire life.
Basically, but but but this is atypical response to flesh and
pain, is to respond with moreflesh and pain.
This is just like we weretalking about in our nonviolence
episode we did not too long ago.

(34:54):
It's the same thing, right?
This is the constant thing thatwe're gonna probably have to
keep talking about because thechurch is still living in the
space in which it's fighting forits own survival, it is fighting
out of fear instead of fightingin faith.
Right.
And belief and violence is anoption, violence is an option,
and it shouldn't be in a fearmode so easily, yeah.
In fear mode, and you've saidthis, Antoine, like and it's a

(35:17):
hard thing to hear.
Yeah, is that is that I'm gonnasay it and you can correct me on
this, right?
This is not what you said, thisis how I hear it.
I I know it, I know we're we'reAmericans, and we believe to
some extent, because we've beentold and shown throughout the
world, that our lives are superimportant, that the what we
create, what we do, how we live,that our stuff, what we do every

(35:39):
single day, when we open oureyes and we start doing whatever
we do, it is so important, notjust to our life, but to the
world.
Like the world needs me to beable to do what it's going to
do.
But here's what I'm gonna tellyou is God does not need you.
He loves you, he wants to useyou, but he does not need you.
In fact, your life sometimeswill just be, he is he is not

(36:01):
concerned with your earthly withhow long you live on this earth
because he's already thinkingabout eternity.
Right.
So your life on this earth isactually to be used for
something for God, and what thatmay be is to be used um to
experience pain, to demonstratewhat it looks like for people
who are under Christ toexperience pain, uh, to to

(36:23):
experience trial and to showother people what it looks like
for people under Christ toexperience trial, to experience
hurt, to experience loss, lossof life, loss of loved ones.
I mean, all kinds of things.
It's not that God doesn't careand doesn't come in compassion
and suffering along with you,but He is He is He is thinking
eternally, He's not thinking inour mode.
It's like I've said before, likeI mean, think about the

(36:46):
Israelites in in Egypt.
400 years, 400 years of slaveryand crying out to God and
nothing happened, and we get allof that in the scriptures, it's
two sentences at the beginningof Exodus.
They they multiplied and andgrew in the land.
That's literally like 400 yearswrapped up.

(37:08):
Imagine what 400 years lookslike in our American existence.
Like America wouldn't even ifthe 400 years is a deal and we
are in the middle of anon-caring part or a non-a
non-biblical story about thewhat God is doing in the world,
and 400 years is a deal.
America could could almost fitin twice in that way.
Yeah, and and nothing we wouldhave done would have made the
ink, wouldn't had no ink in theBible.
Imagine that.

(37:28):
And yet we cry and we shout andwe kill and we murder about
these things that may not evenbe a footnote in what God is
trying to do across theexistence.
It's just yeah, it's crazy tome.
But we will fight like we arethe thing, and we are the ones
God is using, and we are theonly ones who can make it

(37:48):
happen.
Yeah, and I think if we if webring that's that kind of ego to
it, of course we're gonna beoffended.
Of course we're gonna bedefensive when they when when
someone says something or killssomebody who's a part of our
team, of course.

SPEAKER_06 (38:00):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much to do with the
the the self-importance of thatyou did the self-importance of
the thing.
No, no.
Well, I mean it I mean it's abig one, it could open up this
whole other this other can thatwe probably don't have time to
get into, but um, yeah.
I also think it's yeah, I thinkit's interesting.

(38:22):
Okay, so we've talked about uhwe've talked about those who
feel like Charlie Kirkrepresented something Christian
and that he got killed and it'sa symbol of Christian
persecution.
And offer a challenge for how torespond to that.
But not everybody thinks thatway, right?
Yeah, not everybody saw CharlieKirk as someone who represented

(38:44):
Christian values, and his deathdoes not for everyone mean that
he um that he was martyred forChristian.
That he was martyred forChristianom.
And there are Christians, peoplewho call themselves Christians
who um are trying to livedevoted lives um in discipleship
with Christ, who would say that.

(39:05):
Um what would you say to thosepeople?
Like, like how how how shouldyou know what's what's what have
you seen as helpful or hurtfulresponses from those people,
maybe in some of the things yousaw, or in the ways that the
those who don't think of him asa martyr and how they might be
approaching the conversationright now?

SPEAKER_03 (39:25):
Um you know, uh I I think there is a kind of
devaluation of of his lifeperiod as a human.
Um I I I do think that there arehere's what I would say too is
um because I've been doing moreresearch, I think, on Charlie
Kirk, my algorithm has beensending me both of the the

(39:46):
things now.
So I get I get stuff that hesays that I'm like, I actually
can't disagree with that thing.
That thing.
But then the next sentence hesays, Oh, I can totally disagree
with that, right?
But again, I think most of thosefolks uh are just hearing the
thing that they would disagreewith.
I I am I just imagine that thatpeople aren't um not not

(40:07):
everyone is kind of monolithicin in the way that they that
they think in a in a sense thatthey would that that would,
particularly from a Christianstandpoint, in this yeah, that
it that would disagree with someof your simple sensibilities.
Um I understand that there is avessel problem, I think that's I
wrestle with is like I hear itand it sounds like something I
might say, but it's coming outof a vessel that's gonna say
something that I would not say.

(40:29):
And so that becomes somethingthat's that's tense in our and
we had this conversation at mydinner table the other day.
It's really hard.
Um, and that's where the cliffshave a certain correct, and
that's where the cliff jumperpiece is hard because you're
like, doggone it.
Like, if I didn't know better, Iwould say this guy sounded like
a Christian right here.
Yeah, but what I understand isthat he's not a Christian
because he said this over here,yeah.

(40:50):
And and I think that humans arenot are not easily described um
and easily captured in in uhhighlights and headlines.
Yeah, I don't think they'reeasily captured that way.
And I would imagine if peoplefollow me around uh and just
took certain things that I saidum even on the show or walking
around and they put it in youknow in particular you know

(41:11):
music behind it and put somebodytalking over it, man, they could
paint any kind of picture aboutme.
I'm again, I'm not saying thatthat's what's happening.
I'm just saying that we've gotto be better about recognizing
that that humans are flawed andthey're gonna say things that
are gonna be really great andaligned with God.
But then like Paul says, it'slike the thing that I the thing
I I know I should do, I don'tdo, right?
And the thing I shouldn't do,that is the thing I do.
So it's it's just articulatingthis idea that nobody's perfect

(41:33):
and nobody's saying umeverything right, and nobody's
and and grace has always beengiven to humanity.
And and if we think about itChristianity, again, we talk
about it in ideas, and again,it's this may not be the way
everybody thinks about it, butwhat what it seems to be is that
sin doesn't have hierarchy.
Like it doesn't seem to havehierarchy.
Like God is like any kind ofsin, like you like you you

(41:55):
cannot come in here withanything.
I don't care if you're amurderer or if you just called
your brother Raka, you know whatI mean, or whatever.
Like it doesn't matter.
So even when I hear somebody saythings, and I would say, Man,
that is not the way God issaying it.
And that feels like a sinful wayof talking about things in
people.
I still gotta go, and and andGod still, God still, Jesus
still died for them.
I need it, I needed to say thatbecause he died for me.

SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
You gotta say it.

SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
Because he died for me for something even less than,
yeah, if you will, or even more.
Yeah, right.
So equal.

SPEAKER_06 (42:23):
Yeah.
Um, the um I get in trouble, I'mnot trouble, but I uh it's
always a bit shocking when umwhen I'm in a I've done some
young adult um teachings, andevery once in a while I'll say
Jesus died for Hitler, yeah,yeah, that's and that Hitler
could be saved if he just andand that's really hard for it's

(42:45):
it's hard for people.
I'm sweating, and for somereason, people think Antoine,
does that mean you agree withHitler?
Like, no, all I said was the wasthat Hitler is part of the world
in John 3 16, yeah.
For God so loved the world thathe gave it, he's part of that.
He didn't he didn't anyone, hedidn't whosoever.
Yeah, he's he's in thewhosoever, yeah.

(43:07):
Um Charlie Kirk's in thewhosoever.

SPEAKER_03 (43:10):
Um praise God, I'm in the whosoever.

SPEAKER_06 (43:12):
And we and so is you so are you and I.
So there is there is that gracethat's extended um to all.
There is uh I oh you talkedabout some of the challenges.

SPEAKER_03 (43:21):
One of the things that just I always I always say
like this love has no loopholes,yeah, right?
Like there's unfortunately, asmuch as it would be really great
for us to to be able to go toJesus and go, but what about
this, right?
We saw we've seen that in thescripture is commonly too, yeah,
yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (43:36):
How many times should I know who is my
neighbor, right?
Who's my neighbor?
All those things, yeah.
Well, you know, the Gentile, canthey really get the Spirit of
God?
They can just be in the room,right?

SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
We're the ones that are really spiritual, right?
Yeah, is it time for us to makea kingdom of Israel right now,
God?
I know you're supposed to gomake disciples of all nations,
but can we make a nation to doit?
He's like, Y'all need to bewitnesses in every nation,
you're not making a big one.

SPEAKER_06 (44:00):
We're gonna be ending again probably on this
witnesses because we havehidden, we've hit them so many
times.
I know, but you got to, but withthe well, it's a remind, it's
got to be a reminder.
There's a reason Jesus said itat the right before he left in a
moment where violence is soready to be used by a block of
people who call themselvesChristians.

(44:21):
Um man, we have to be reminded.
I have to assume that you'recalling if you say you're a
Christian, then I can't judgewhether you are or are not.
But what you have given mepermission to do that's good as
a Christian is to take thescriptures and put them in front
of you.
That's right.
That's what you've done when yousay you're a Christian.

SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Put the fullness of thescriptures, not not a scripture
or a phrase, the contextualizedfullness of the scriptures has
got to be wrestled with, themeta-narrative, particularly and
the mission, and we're supposedto wrestle with it.

SPEAKER_06 (44:55):
Like I just we are everybody's at different levels
in their faith journey, and soand different pieces, so they're
gonna convictions will move andshift as we grow in our
spiritual formation.
Yeah, but if you call yourself aChristian, so if the
conservative party uh um blockand uh and there are elements of
the liberal party block thatwould say this is a Christian um

(45:17):
um initiative, this is a yeah,this is a Christian-influenced
viewpoint.
Yeah, there you go.
Right?
Yeah, the liberal would probablysay that Jesus says love the
poor, love the immigrant, right?
That these are these are theseare not me saying this.
This is a Christian influencedthing.
I believe we should have thispolicy because the scriptures
say this.
There are people on the liberalwho would say that, there are

(45:39):
people who would say that on theconservative, whoever it is,
right?
Whatever you, wherever your dealis, if you call yourself a
Christian, then the scriptureshave to be put in front of you,
all of them, as as as uh as hasbeen said.
And the scriptures don't allowus to respond the way that we've
been responding.

(45:59):
I do think that uh the peoplewho feel um less connected,
their Christianity feels lessconnected to Charlie's.
Yeah, right.
They would say he's not the sortof Christianity that I ascribe
to.
Those persons, um, I think thosepersons can be a good check.
Like you, you know, for us, likeum in Luke 4, the crowd is ready

(46:26):
to throw the crowd, yeah, isready to throw Jesus off the
cliff.
Not just one or two people, likethey all firm it, the mob
mentality.
Like, yeah, our our ourproclivity for mob work, for
group think, for group stuff,and it's such easy the peer

(46:46):
pressure, like we but it's thisall this all feels like 12, 13,
14, 15-year-old stuff that wejust haven't fully fully learned
yet, right?
And we're we we we don't knowhow we don't it for many people
it's hard to just break from thegroup and and and live in a
particular type of way, but soso sometimes these could be good

(47:06):
checks.
You're a pastor, and and itdoesn't sound like that because
if you're gonna demonize people,then anyone who disagrees with
you is a demon that should befought against, not a potential
iron that could be sharpeningyou as an iron, right?
I don't want your iron, and andI realize that can be tricky and
difficult.
You know, there are some pastorswho I don't want to follow who

(47:27):
I'm not gonna listen to, theirtheology I disagree with.
Um, but a lot of this is nottheology, it's like some of it
is theology, but a lot of it isjust ideology, it's uh political
theory, uh, is economics, andsome of those things are things
that can be wrestled with, notdemonized over.
And uh, but that's not how we doit, you know.

(47:50):
Um group think protects my own,and it protects me.
It's a it's a is I would I makethe case that it's a
psychological, um subconsciousme.
I'm protecting me when I protectsomeone who looks like me.
Yeah, and um, that's what Ireally love, and so it's a very
ego self-driven way of engagingin policy and people work, uh,

(48:14):
versus a kingdom mindset thatsays Christ is how I will choose
to see the world, yeah, and Iwill see the Christ in certainly
my brothers and sisters inChrist, right?
Um, and even when we disagree,I'm gonna live and and and work
through what it looks like to uhto live in that space.

SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Yeah.
I think as we as we kind of wrapup here, I think you said
something that that sparked uhmaybe I'm saying it for my own
protection.
Um, but uh you mentioned thisthis Luke 4 passage, which is
you know, Jesus' sort of comingout party, if you will, for his
ministry, right?
He opens the scroll and he talksabout it came to you know bring
good news to the poor and sightto the blind, all those things.

(48:55):
Uh and then of course, you whatyou're talking about is a crowd,
they hear this and they're like,Finally, oh my gosh, this is the
Messiah, right?
And he's coming and he's goingto do things for us, the
Israelites, the Hebrews.
He's gonna, yes, this is aboutus.
And Jesus is like, Oh, I canhear you guys saying, like, oh,
good, he's finally come to dosomething for us, but I just
need to remind you, like, uh,I'm actually here for everybody,

(49:15):
I'm not here just for you, justlike you saw in the old
testament with Elijah, right?
Is that in Alicia?
Like, I'm I I'm going toactually not just help my
people, but I'm actually goingto help the people who have
persecuted you.
And it was that that was thething.
That was the thing that launchedthem into I'm about to throw
this dude off the side of acliff.
They were excited when theythought it was for them.

(49:36):
When they thought it was he,when he was and when he was
engaging in group dynamics andabout the group.

SPEAKER_02 (49:40):
That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 (49:41):
Right.
But when he decided, like, hey,I'm not actually jumping off the
cliff with you.
Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna go helpother people before they jump
off cliffs.
I know this this analogy isdying right now, especially
since there's a cliff jump,right?

SPEAKER_02 (49:52):
Yeah, we're not so we're not gonna use this analogy
exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (49:56):
It completely fell apart.
I get it.
But the idea is I'm not herejust for you, I'm not here just
for our group, I'm here forevery group.
And that was that was sodangerous to them and so
despicable that they went tomurder instantly, instantly,
like there was no this is whyit's typical.
Instantly, this is why it'stypical.

SPEAKER_06 (50:14):
This is what the the this passage is so interesting
to me because in a in what feelslike a series of small moments,
yeah.
Yes, a biblical second.
It's they didn't go home andconfer and and and and and argue
with each other about it.
The entire room decided, what?

SPEAKER_03 (50:31):
Yeah, verse 23 through 27 is Jesus explaining
that he's here for other people.
And 28 says, All the people insynagogue were furious when they
heard this.
They caught up, drove him out oftown, and took him to the brow
of the hill on which the townwas built in order to throw him
off the cliff.
They had to walk it out.
It wasn't just that they beathim, like they hit him, they had
to like get a group and theycarried him, they had to walk

(50:52):
for a minute with this anger.

SPEAKER_06 (50:53):
It's a mob.
It's a mob.
And you could go further andsay, Wam, the the scripture he's
reading is about the poor andthe, but we're not doing that.

SPEAKER_03 (51:00):
No, we're not messing with all that.

SPEAKER_06 (51:02):
But but it's but it the instant, the instantness of
it, right?
Man, so that's where we are.

SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
And and I think what I think about with that, um, in
that in that demonization andimmediately going towards um,
again, this is not necessarilyabout Jesus, but just this
demonization.
I'm reminded what Dr.
Martin Luther King talks aboutin his in his uh even the the
tenets of nonviolence, where hehe tries to remind those who are
in the midst of this strife andthe and the battles that they're
doing for justice and mercy andkindness and humbly with God,

(51:30):
all those things, Micah 6, 8,that's you're doing it, that you
have to remember you're dealingwith a human being here.
A human being that perhaps isbeing led by enemy forces,
right?
There's an enemy that is not thehuman, there is a much stronger
enemy behind all of that, andthat's who you that's who you

(51:51):
take your vitriol toward.
Not the human that may be incahoots and being led by and
being influenced by this enemy,like all of us have been, but
you're actually going after theenemy itself.
He says it's not that you'regoing after the person who's
practicing injustice, but you'regoing after injustice itself.
So when I think about CharlieKirk, it's kind of my last thing
I'm thinking about is like, yes,I mourn, I mourn the man, I

(52:13):
mourn the the human that wascreated, I mourn the family that
was destroyed, and the and thethe repercussions of that for
these kids and whatnot forforever, right?
It's not the thing I don'tmourn, the thing I that I can't,
the thing I'm gonna constantlyhave to deal with though is the
things that he said, those ideasare still around.
And it it the the the negativeideas, the hate, if you will, if

(52:35):
you said that there was hatespeech or whatever, like any of
those things, that hate is stillhere because there's still an
enemy moving that work forward.
It's not about Charlie Kirk,it's not about a human being,
it's about the ideas and theconcepts that are continuing to
be pushed forward by the enemythrough us, and I say us because
we're all guilty of that.
And so we have to startpointing, we have to stop doing
what is the the adolescentthing, which is just pointing at

(52:58):
the person and do some deep workand looking at the concepts
behind and engaging that, evenas you engage the person, yeah,
constantly challenging the ideaswithout having to demonize them
in the midst of their ideas.

SPEAKER_06 (53:09):
Yeah, and I love that.
And the the sort of finalthought I have is again, I like
you mourn the the death of uhCharlie Kirk and and and the
impact it's having on hisfamily.
Um praying that God will bepresent in their next steps,
that that the enemy doesn't takea hold of this bitterness and

(53:33):
this grief that has beenproduced by this murder, and
that the enemy doesn't itdoesn't get a foothold here and
suddenly is able to move thingsforward, maybe I'll I'll hold to
no um move things forward in anegative way.
Um, but then there's a secondmorning, and that second morning
is the witness of the church forme.

(53:56):
And as we, as the collectiveChristian voices in America
respond to this, we have to becareful.
Christ's view to us was to bewitnesses to the rest of the
world uh and to make disciples.
And the witness is the thingthat people are gonna see,
right?
And uh what are they seeing?

(54:18):
When the Christian church isquote unquote persecuted or
believe they're persecuted, howdo we respond?
Is it what Jesus would want us?
Is that the sort of witness thatwe'd want to be?
Um I am praying.
I I I think it's safe for me tosay this.
I have been dissatisfied withthe witness of the church for
the last 10 years where it comesto politics.

(54:40):
I feel like it has only causedus to cause Jesus to look less
like who he really is, and ithas been an uh a disinvitation
to many people instead of aninvitation.
And um and this is anotherscenario where I think the
church has an opportunity to uhlive counterculturally, think

(55:04):
counter-culturally, and I thinkall the energy is heading in the
wrong direction, um, even ifit's righteously so, right?
The scripture doesn't even tellus the persecution, he doesn't
say whether the persecution wasright or wrong, it's just
persecution, right?
And and he tells us how torespond to it.
So I'm not even getting intowhether I agree or disagree with

(55:27):
the energy.
What I'm saying is how we'rechoosing respond isn't it?
This is an important moment.
And Christians are leading thiscountry in one way or the other.
We're either leading them toviolence or we're leading them
to peace, and that is a realthing.
Christians right now have avoice in this country, and
Christians, people who callthemselves Christians, are

(55:47):
leading us either into war orinto peace.
You know, and um, so it's alittle bit of a struggle.

SPEAKER_03 (55:55):
I get it.
I get it.
Well, man, hey, good convo.
And uh I don't know howeverybody's hearing all of that,
but uh I I hope you understandthat this is this is kind of
what we do here at ColorCommentary.
Uh we want to put on differentlenses and try to look at the
things that people are talkingabout in the areas of
Christianity, culture, and race,and just trying to figure out
how do we put God's name in themidst of this well.
Um and it's a hard, it's a hardthing sometimes because there's

(56:18):
hurts out there that that arereal and there's real ways in
which people have been impacted.
And sometimes it can feel uhlike it's it's kind of this
Pollyanna kind of talk, you knowwhat I mean?
Like, uh, it's about thescriptures.
But if we can't hold on to thetruth of the scriptures, man,
what are we holding on to?
Uh, what power are we holding onto to try to help us maneuver
through these situations and tryto understand what we're seeing?

(56:38):
And so that's why we hope, youknow what I mean, as you
maneuver through this world thatyou'll just kind of continue to
put on these these differentcolored lenses that you'll be
able to see through and practicethe idea of kind of looking
through what would what whatdoes it look like from somebody
else's perspective?
Um and that's why as we continueto to engage with you, we tell
you to stay colored.